Toronto Deception

by former Toronto Vineyard Pastor Paul Gowdy.



It has taken me nine years to actually come to the place where I would write this story. Part of the reason was because I was not fully convinced that it is appropriate to speak out against weaknesses in the body of Christ publicly. Another reason is because it has taken years of soul searching to become convinced that what happened in the Toronto Airport Church was actually all bad or at least more bad than good!

For the past number of years I have called it a mixed blessing. I think James A. Beverly called it this in his book Holy Laughter and the Toronto Blessing 1994. Today I would call it a mixed curse concluding that any individual good that came from this experience is far outweighed by much harm and satanic deception. I suppose that therein has been my dilemma. I have tried to live my life in the fear of the Lord and Jesus told us that the unforgivable sin was the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Attributing to Satan what was in fact a work of God. If pressed as to whether or not the Toronto blessing is all God or all Devil I will still be hedgy, but I am convinced that Satan has used this experience to blind people to the historical doctrines of God, to produce fruit in keeping with repentance, to failing to test and discern the spirits and failing to test prophecy.

After three years of being in the thick of the Toronto blessing our Vineyard assembly in Scarborough ( East Toronto) just about self destructed. We devoured one another, with gossip, backstabbing, division, sects criticism etc. After three years of 'soaking,' praying for people, shaking, rolling, laughing, roaring, ministering at TACF on their prayer team, leading worship at TACF, preaching at TACF, basically living at TACF we were the most carnal, immature and deceived Christians that I know. I remember saying to my friend and senior pastor at Scarborough Vineyard Church in 1997 that ever since the Toronto Blessing came we have just about fallen to bits! He agreed!

My experience has been that the manifestation of spiritual gifts mentioned in 1st Corinthians 12 was much more common in our assembly before January 1994 (when the Toronto blessing started) than during this period of supposed Holy Spirit visitation.

During 1992-1993 when praying for people we would experience what I believe was genuine prophesy, deliverance and much grace and favour from the Lord. After the Toronto Blessing started, all ministry time changed, the only prayers were 'More Lord MORE', the shouting of 'Fire' the jerky shaking of the body with the 'ooh ooh OOH WOOOAAH' prayer. (I kid you not!)

On January 20th 1994 about 15 people from our church traveled over to Toronto Airport Vineyard in order to listen to Randy Clark, a Vineyard pastor from the USA. John Arnott had called our senior pastor to invite us. He communicated that Randy had been to the Rodney Howard Browne meetings and that the stuff had broke out in his church in the following weeks. John was hoping that something might break out with us too. We were only too happy to travel over. We were a church plant out of the Toronto Airport and we started in 1992. In those days there were three Vineyard
Churches in Toronto. One Down Town church, Scarborough vineyard church to the east and the Airport Church. We were one big happy family. Because we were small in number we did special meetings, conferences etc, together.

The year before most of our leadership teams joined and had headed to Nicaragua for a short term missions trip. We had genuine love and fellowship with each other. Since leaving the Vineyard churches I have read a fair bit of analysis from the critics. Some make out that the Toronto Blessing was one huge conspiracy to lead the body of Christ into heresy. Heresy and apostasy I suspect may well be the result, but none of these destinations were intentional. I am honestly convinced that the leaders in the Vineyard churches are genuine born-again Christians who love the Lord, but have fallen into deception. They have not loved the Lord enough to keep His commandments. They have failed to obey the scriptures and have been led astray by our longing for something bigger and brighter and more exciting and dynamic. I am guilty of this sin also. I have preached renewal in Korea, the United Kingdom, the USA and here in Canada. I am genuinely repentant and in writing this story I would ask you the bride and body of Christ to forgive me. Especially the Pentecostal/Charismatic Christians among you, for you are my immediate family theologically. I am an evangelical Christian, I always have been but I do not believe in the cessation of the spiritual gifts at the end of the apostolic era. I believe that it was my evangelical roots (my family are Baptists and I was born again in the presbyterian Church.) that started to open my eyes to problems with this so called renewal. In hind sight I look back and think how could I have been so blind? I laughed at people acting like dogs and pretending to urinate on the columns of the TACF building. I watched people pretend to be animals, bark, roar, cluck, pretend to fly as if they had wings, perpetually act drunk and sing silly songs. How I thought that any of this was from the Holy Spirit of God amazes me today. It was loud irreverent and blasphemous to the Holy God of the Bible. I suppose in my mind I reasoned that as long as they did not teach any thing in direct violation to scripture then it was what we called the exotic. This is a buzz word for manifestations that could not be justified from a biblical perspective.

I was taught from the pulpit that we had two options. The order of the nursery full of life and messy or the order of the graveyard, very orderly but dead! As a young immature pastor I wanted life with mess. I failed to remember that God wants us to become mature and grow up in him. I became disconcerted by the prophetic words that came forth especially one by Carol Arnott in which she had her bride experience where she was taken into the very presence of Jesus and said that the love that she experienced was even better than sex! I was shocked in my spirit and thought how can one compare the love of God with sex? When we suspected that demons were running riot in our services John Arnott would teach that we should ask are they coming or going. If they are leaving then that is ok! John would defend the chaos by saying that we ought not be afraid of being deceived, if we have asked the Holy Spirit to come and fill us then how could Satan come and deceive us? This would make Satan very strong and God very weak! He said that we needed to have more faith in a Big God to protect us than in a Big Devil to deceive us. This sounded very convincing but was totally contrary to scripture for Jesus and Paul and Peter and John all warn us about the power
of deceiving spirits and especially so in the last days. Again we did not love God enough to obey His Word and the result was that we opened ourselves up to lying spirits. May God have mercy upon us!

Finally the penny dropped for me as I was rolling around one night 'drunk in the Spirit' as we would say. I started singing and as I rolled around the floor the Nursery Rhyme 'Mary had a little lamb its fleece was white as snow.' came to mind. I sang this in a mocking spirit and instantly my heart told me this was a demon. Instantly I repented and was in total shock. How could a demon get into me? Did I not love God? Was I not zealous for the things of God? Was I not nuts about Jesus? I knew that an unclean spirit had just manifested through me and I was guilty of great sin. After
this experience I stayed away from TACF. I did not go back there any more. I did not possess the conviction to denounce the whole experience but thought that we where failing to pastor the Blessing well enough.

Even after I stopped going over to TACF, I had to pastor the fruit of it. One example was when some of our people returned from a meeting there asking us if we had all received the golden sword of the Lord? I asked them what they were talking about thinking that it was some prophetic reference to the Holy Scriptures but they said, 'no, it's not the Bible, it's an invisible golden sword that only the really pure can receive. If taken in an unrighteous fashion then
the Lord would kill you. But if you are holy enough to receive it then you can wield this sword and it will heal AIDS, Cancer etc. and bring salvation. How one wielded this sword was by pretending to have this invisible sword in your hand and motioning to strike people with it when in prayer! I thought while even in deception at this time that the TACF had become Looney bins! This was purportedly first received by Carol Arnott and then given to the ones holy enough to receive it! Another thing was the golden fillings in the teeth. We had people in our assembly peeping down one another's throats looking for the gold fillings that God had placed there to show how much he loved them! In all my time there I only heard one message on repentance given by a visiting speaker from Hong Kong named Jackie Pullinger. It went over like a lead balloon. We were not there to repent, we were there to party in the Lord! After one year into the blessing I spoke out at a pastors meeting and said 'guys we have shaken, rattled, rolled, laughed cried and bought the tee-shirt. But we have no revival, no salvation, no fruit and no increased evangelism so what's the deal?' I was soundly rebuked - who was I to expect to see fruit when the Lord was healing his broken people? We had been legalistic long enough and God was spending this time restoring his wounded and freeing us from legalism I was told not to push the Lord and the harvest would come in his time.'

I knew this was wrong because the Lord had commanded us to go into all the earth and make disciples! Not that everyone should take a sabbatical for who knows how long, while God does some strange new thing! Ultimately I left over something as controversial as the ordination of women. Personally I believe from scripture that women should not be pastors/elders in a local assembly. I could be wrong on this and there is much debate in the Church today but
that is my conviction and in the Vineyard churches they were ordaining all the pastors' wives to co pastor with them. I am certainly for women in ministry but believe that the Elder/pastor role in a local assembly has been reserved for men. I did not write scripture but God willing I will have the grace from now on to obey it.

So there is my story. I could go on and document much excess, folly, sin and latter day reign teaching that manifest from the prophetic end of this Blessing but others have already done that. We sang about Joel's army and the billion soul revival as if it were one of the Ten Commandments, and as always it was just around the corner. Next month, next year etc. Jesus said that when the son of man returns will he find faith upon the earth? And if he does not return when he does no flesh would be saved but for the sake of the elect he comes. This is a far cry from the dominionism that is being taught all through the vineyard/prophetic/ spiritual warfare movement. I honestly think that they think they are going to take over the whole world! While in the Vineyard I embraced a life verse from the Apostle Paul the phrase do not go beyond what is written!

To finish I just want to say sorry for the damage, that I have personally done by teaching things that are not correct biblically. I repent before men as I already have before God. I will not excuse my falling into deception. I did not bother to test things when the scriptures commanded us to do so. Everyone who was there when this thing started knows that what I write is true, they would just come to different conclusions especially if they are still promoting
the 'river!'

To those in the river I would say swim out, there are things living in the water that will bite you real good! I love the people of TACF and the Vineyard movement but I think that we have much to answer for and may the Lord open your eyes sooner rather than later. I suspect that when this letter goes online I will get bombarded by emails from both camps, some damning me for still believing in the ministry of the Holy Spirit and still walking in deception and some old friends damning me for exposing dirt or being negative about the Lords anointed! Well, the Lord knows my heart and by his grace he will guide me into all truth as I seek to know Christ and him crucified! If you believe that I walk in sin and error please pray for me that the Lord would forgive me and open my eyes. I will study the word to show my self a work man approved! I would call on all who read this to pray that the Lord would open the eyes of all who have been involved in this deception. Whether leader or follower, we are loved and the Lord is a forgiving God. He says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. I believe we are like the church in Laodicea, we think that we are rich, have prospered and need nothing, we do not realise that we are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind and naked. We must take the Counsel of Jesus and buy gold refined in the fire (which is his suffering, not a false spirit!), white garments to clothe our shameful nakedness and salve for our eyes that we might see again. Jesus is calling us to repentance and thank the Lord that he is, for it will lead us to true restoration with our Father! If God has forgiven me and opened my eyes then he can do it for all those caught in deception too. I will finish with a warning from Paul, he says if you think you are standing firm be careful lest you fall.

Sincerely,
Paul Gowdy

Thank you for sharing this article C....

In those things that he shared I can relate with concerning the state of churches today...I thank him for having the courage and foundation to admit his wrong doings shown him by the Lord...

I had never heard of the Tornoto Blessing before and by the likes of it I am glad...Though I have been in a church were they were rolling all around and doing odd things...It just did not sit right...

Likewise C...Thanks for posting it. And oh my...how aweful it is to find out you are wrong.
Once stung twice shy.. It is a GOOD thing! ... to be twice shy.

Because if we allow ourselves to just roll along we are in for trouble.

It creeps in slow like a fog after a long cold spell. Pray..Study...obey..
The wind of the Spirit will blow that fog out.

Thank God this man has found mercy and thank God he's been brave enough to admit it.
I pray God would bless and receive him for it.

God has to have allowed this to happen as an example of what can happen to us...eating grass and the like. Let's test everything. We're responsible. Let's to do it.

good read!

How about that! I jsut read this article 2 days ago! No, it was a curse!

The "river"... reminds me of a dream I had:

Unlike most of my dreams, I was an observer- but always watching from very up close and from the main character's point of view (the beautiful Indian lady). There was a lot of action leading up to the part I remember.

The part I remember starts like this:

This lady dressed in hindu-like garments started dancing with hindi sounding music in the background. She was like in the center of a stage and the was main focus complete with alluring lighting. She was beautiful and her garment was that of a traditional Indian sari... red and gold. I saw her dancing and then the scene changed.

She was in a river. The yucky and eerie river was almost like it was in a cave- or at least the follage surrounding the river was very very dense so as to block out all light. It was night. As she traveled rapidly down the river, there were horrible creatures all around her. Scorpians, spiders, snakes. They would crawl up on her, but she would simply touch them a certain way and they wouldn't bite or hurt her. When asked later why she wasn't hurt by these creatures, she replied, "It is because I am a holy woman".

She emerged from this river "somehow" (it is a little fuzzy here) and suddenly I watched as she was on top of a skyscaper. Above her and across the street was another even taller skyscaper. Perched on the roof this taller building were snipers dressed in the traditional black suits and guns. They wanted to kill her.

There were other people (men only) there on the roof of the building with the beautiful woman. The snipers were also trying to take them out as well.

As they dove to avoid being shot, some of the men were killed. One man escaped, only to land in a trench like spot. Unfortunately, some of the water that remained from the river was in this trench. There, the poisonous creatures (scorpians, spiders) were able to finish him off.

It was at this point I woke up because it was time to get ready and leave.

I don't know what to say, because in the earlier stages of the Toronto Blessing a man from that church came to my burb and I ended up born again and talking in tongues and believing God for the first time ever. Not only that, I was literally sent to that meeting by an inner voice which described the event and the place it would occur. I have had a few manifestations (hilarious joy, "drunk" in the Spirit, prophesy, tonques, interpretation of tongues by which I now prophesy, healings, deliverances, etc etc) but I have never felt I am living a lie or was born under a curse. Devils were cast out of two women standing next to me the day I was touched by God from that ministry. Maybe I am deceived or maybe I was fortunate enough to get in on the ground floor of a good thing that the devil later managed to reflux to his own ends. No matter, I am not feeling disqualified for the race I run. How easily people will throw a thing down and call it a curse when it was God at the outset...Jesus Himself was so assessed.

Joh 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. Joh 10:20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? Joh 10:21 Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind?

An angel opened the prison doors of my old life and I was allowed to escape thusly...

Act 5:19 But the angel of the Lord by night opened the prison doors, and brought them forth, and said, Act 5:20 Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life. I have prophesied to a lot of folks on this board and have had validation of the words from those who received them. I could in no wise beforehand speak all of the words that I have so spoken since having had that exemplary time with God. A few have despised my words and have called my words lies of the enemy. Some have thought they were words from God to them. I could not memorize or even understand scripture beforehand. But today, I must stand in the the chipper like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. I am having manifestations of belief in a thing that many would cry foul of , and I feel the goodness of God in the midst of an angry mob. The grease will burn hot and pure as it must always do in the refiners fire.

>>>>>>

Keep not silence, O God; hold not thy peace, and be not still, O God, that men may know that Thou, whose name alone is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth. Hear, for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of My lips shall be right things. All the Words of My mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them. Now, therefore, hearken unto Me, oh ye children: for blessed are they that keep My ways. Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not. He that sinneth against Me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate Me love death. I, The Lord have called thee in righteousness and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the gentiles. I am the Lord; that is My name: and My glory I will not give to another, neither My praise to graven images. Behold the former things are come to pass, and new things do I declare: before they spring forth I tell you of them. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and His praise from the ends of the earth!

"I will not hold My peace, neither will I be still, O man, who art created after the similitude of My image! Have I not created thee so? Prepare ye a testimony of My gracious works to noise abroad so great a salvation which has been wrought for all who confess belief on My name and in My righteousness!"

And I will bring the blind by a way that they know not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known; I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them. They shall be turned back; they shall be greatly ashamed that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, ye are our gods! Hear ye deaf, and look, ye blind, that ye may see.

Who is blind but My servant? or deaf, as My messenger that I sent? Who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the Lord's servant? Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but heareth not! The Lord is well pleased for His righteousness sake; He will magnify the law and make it honourable. But this is a people robbed and spoiled. They are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, restore. Who among you will give ear to this? Who will hearken and hear for the time to come?

Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgressions and the house of Jacob their sins. Yet they seek me daily and delight to know My way, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of Me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seeest the naked, that thou cover him. and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee: the glory of the Lord shall be your rearward. Then thou shalt call and the Lord shall answer; thou shalt cry, and He shall say, Here am I. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity. And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shalt thy light rise in obscurity and thy darkness be as the noonday: and the Lord shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob, thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

The Lord hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: He wakeneth morning by morning, He wakeneth my ear as the learned. The Lord God hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back. For the Lord God will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. The Lord is on my side. I will not fear; what can man do unto me? The Lord hath chastened me sore; but He hath not given me over to death. Open for me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise thee: thou art my God, I will exalt thee. O give thanks unto the Lord; for He is good: for His mercy endureth forever.

"Because you hath set your love upon Me, therefore will I deliver thee: I will set you on high because you hath known My name. You shall call upon Me, and I will answer thee: I will be with thee in trouble. I will deliver thee and honour thee. With long life will I satisfy thee, and show thee My salvation." Go to now, and surely I shall cover thee with My love!
<Amen>

References <Ps83:1,18> <Prov 8:6,8,32,36> <Isa 42:6,8,9,10,16,23> <Isa 58:1,2,6-11,14> <Isa 50:4,5,7> <Ps 118:6,18,28,29> <Ps 91:14-16>

fervent... I thought as I read this: Do not throw the baby out with the bath water.

These things I write unto you that your joy may be full. I am making known to you the ways of life; thou shalt be full of joy with thy countenance. This is the message which I declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. In the very Spirit of meekness I come, for I am meek and lowly in heart.

My power is commensurate with My love, and I am moving to empower and to equip those who walk in the path of love that I have chosen for them. This path may have the seemings of being totally obtuse to the normal expectations of the heart and mind. As I have said, My ways are not your ways.

There stand among you many vessels of My sovereign mercy which do indeed have the testimony of Jesus Christ. This testimony is not a dogmatic interpretation of My word, for My word is quick and powerful and louvered to the times and to the generations that receive it in the timelessness of truth. You are come to the kingdom for such a time as this.

I am bringing about the last outpouring of My grace and mercy upon all who will be humble to receive it. I have said from the beginning of these last days that the waterspout of My Spirit is available to refresh the thirsty, and the bread of life that I am to the hungry will satisfy the hunger which resides even within My sanctified ones.

Ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. I am calling upon My chosen vessels to walk the higher path and to talk the higher praises of the Father who has great delight in you. I am the bridge that has crossed the gulf between you and the Father of all living.

These things have I spoken unto you, that My joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. I shall show you plainly of the Father. The Father Himself loveth you, because ye have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God. The trying of your faith is much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire. It will be found unto praise and honor and glory at My appearing.

You have not in this generation seen Me, yet you love Me, and believe Me and you rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. I have many things to say unto you. I shall come unto you, and speak face to face, that your joy may be full. Make ready the bride in the bridechamber, for the worthy ones are readied unto all adversity and unto all eagerness of spirit to perform My will and to be worthy of an invitation to My wedding feast. And Lo, I come quickly and hasten My word to perform it. Have an eye and an ear to this call to joy and to preparedness. Even so, Amen."

>>>Rev 19:10. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Blessings...


Luke 12:34

"For where your treasure is there your heart will be also."



Abba,

Thank you for this precious message that has be planted in
the heart and mind and spirit of your messenger.

Please gird him and protect him and all those that are precious to his life and ministry.

I speak the Blood of the Lamb, Jesus, against the adversary and bind and limit
every foul spirit that would rise up against the knowledge of God. Bless every child
of God that is reading this now. And make a way where there is no way.

Amen.

Signet

Fervent, your fruit speaks for itself
Ye shall know them by their fruit.
If God can use a donkey, then He can use the Toronto movement . He was out to get hold of you and He did.Praise God, for now the body of Christ has you and we are richer because of it.

We have to stick to the Word when "signs and wonders" come our way. So let us pray that God will keep us on the road and He will
love C

I too have laughed...before l knew or understood what this movement was. I never followed it even after the Lord released this in me. I wasn't even really curious because l felt what was happening there was a sham and a shame.

I love you Larry but what you have written l have an aversion to. I'm not sure why. When l try to read it, it turns to a skim...Usually when something is from the Lord for me it's like metal to magnet. Maybe it's just not for me but still... l shouldn't feel an aversion to it?

Julie...about your dream. The first thing l thought of was King Kong (Baal) I could go into a long string of images that come to mind concerning this but l don't think this string is the right place?
I don't know...maybe it is...but l just feel melancholy right now.

I guess I have never understood how anyone has an aversion to prophetically aligned scriptures. I would suppose that it is inherent within the framework of that grand old deal breaker known as first person prophetic. I have said all of this before over long hard months turned to nearly two years, that God does not refer to Himself in the third person when He speaks (to me) any more than it would sound silly for me to refer to myself in that way. If I go around saying, "Larry said pin the tail on the donkey" instead of, "I tell you, pin the tail on the donkey," then it loses basis points to me. Aversion can be broken into "a version." Within the context of the writing to which I subscribe is a great uncrossable gulf afixed according to the beholding ear. Jesus said in scripture, Mar 4:23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. Mar 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. You do not mete a measure towards this "version" so you have an "aversion." That is not necessarily wrong because Jesus said also, Joh 10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. For some truth is stranger than fiction and such words as I have promulgated are no more than "a diction." Again, "diction" can be "addiction." I have chosen of late to refrain from such word explosions which are esteemed by some as a suicide bomber in their midst. But every now and then there seems a place to need to explode and that place is usually littered with the refuse of the flesh of the charismatic scapegoats who have themselves been blown clear of the water by word bombs of disbelief. The arena of Christendom is so diverse as to suppose on one hand that God has already "done it all" and no longer speaks or moves in a discernable way beyond a scriptural interegation of every soul who reads His word, all the way over to folks like me who believe He has only just begun to do a new thing.

Isa 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old.
Isa 43:19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, [and] rivers in the desert.
Isa 43:20 The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, [and] rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.
Isa 43:21 This people have I formed for myself; they shall shew forth my praise.
Isa 43:22 But thou hast not called upon me, O Jacob; but thou hast been weary of me, O Israel.
Isa 43:23 Thou hast not brought me the small cattle of thy burnt offerings; neither hast thou honoured me with thy sacrifices. I have not caused thee to serve with an offering, nor wearied thee with incense.
Isa 43:24 Thou hast bought me no sweet cane with money, neither hast thou filled me with the fat of thy sacrifices: but thou hast made me to serve with thy sins, thou hast wearied me with thine iniquities.
Isa 43:25 I, [even] I, [am] he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Isa 43:26 Put me in remembrance: let us plead together: declare thou, that thou mayest be justified.
Isa 43:27 Thy first father hath sinned, and thy teachers have transgressed against me.
Isa 43:28 Therefore I have profaned the princes of the sanctuary, and have given Jacob to the curse, and Israel to reproaches.

I guess l would consider it wisdom to take what you've heard from the Lord and consider your flesh and consider who you are speaking to and for what purpose and do whatever it takes to hit the mark.

Humility and Wisdom...not only towards what God expects you to do with what he's given
but why you do it the way you do. Or why you shouldn't.

And Larry, for what it's worth...

l'm receiving this for myself now too. That's my humility.

Shekel has talked to me about this several times. It's a lesson he's had to learn for himself more than once. Just how to tell and how much and in what way...It's wisdom.

I am going to repeat myself and re-post this.We really have to know the Word people and not make our decisions on feelings or what we "think".

This we know Cornelius.

But in what way and why. That's what's being discussed here.

We know the word comes in part but it's only common sense to know that when there is a possibility of error AS THE SCRIPTURE THAT YOU JUST QUOTED SAYS. ... Then it shouldn't be spoken in in first person for the name of the Lord's sake.

If people can't see that then they don't want to.

when the prophet gets a first person revelation and unction...He
does not have the choice to think about the pronoun...it is not
a gee, i think and want to share this...changed to suit those that
can't handle it...it comes the way it comes, praise the Lord.



much of what is heard is spoken from the inner source of the
Holy Spirit speaking to His children...using the mouth of the
servant...

thinking a word through, then speaking it like a speech...is not
how the prophetic is...it is now...and it is painful, and many a
servant is persecuted by the very ones that he is bringing the
message to by the Holy Spirit...

condemnation is not of God...the people in the world don't
persecute the prophetic...they are hungry for it...it is the church
that persecutes its own...

religious spirits get uncomfortable...

The prophetic is like a "zip file" downloaded from God which opens up to paragraphs which are not premeditated and which speak according to the originator thereof. To me it is actually proof of the authorship when one has to scribe so quickly that he can barely breathe. Any such word I have ever had in my days of this life and walk have been so rapid fire that there has been no time whatever for "thinking it through." I have a grade eleven 1965 education...I am no scholar nor do I speak like this at work...

"My People, I solemnly declare unto you this day the lack of any need for contingency plans! The demonic enterprise is rife with earthly, sensual, devilish wisdom designed to sway the elect of God in a desire to lead them astray from the right and true ways! But the master plan of the ages will bring about the salvation of man! For this is at the centre of The Father's will, and it is His heart's desire that all men would be saved, and none lost! The plan was set in motion before the foundation of the world! All is in order and the course which is yet future shall be confirmed in full just as surely as that which has already occurred has become plain and evident through the fulfilment of My word!

Therefore, my brethren dearly beloved and longed for, my joy and crown, so stand fast in Me, My dearly beloved! Rejoice evermore! Pray without ceasing! In every thing give thanks: for this is My will concerning you! Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good! Abstain from all appearance of evil. And I, the God of peace shall sanctify you wholly; and your whole spirit and soul and body shall be preserved blameless unto My coming! Faithful is He that calls you, who also will do it!

Therefore you ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which you have heard, lest at any time you should let them slip! For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; How shall you escape, if you neglect so great salvation; which I at the first began to speak, and was confirmed unto you by them that heard Me; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to His own will?

My testimony to The Father is of old and endures unto all generations! "Sacrifice and offering, You Father, did not desire; My ears have You opened: burnt offering and sin offering have You not required. Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me, I delight to do Your will, O My God: yes, Your law is within My heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O LORD, You know!. I have not hid Your righteousness within My heart; I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation: I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth from the great congregation."My people, I have put a new song in your mouth, even praise unto your God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. Blessed is that man that makes the LORD his trust, and respects not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies. Many, are My wonderful works which I have done, and Mythoughts which are to you-ward: they cannot be reckoned up in order unto Me: if you would declare and speak of them, they are more than can be numbered. And My speech and My preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Howbeit I speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But I speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto your glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified Me, the Lord of glory! But as it is written, eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love Him. But God has revealed them to you by His Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.

And whatsoever you do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; Knowing that of the Lord you shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for you serve the Lord Christ. But he that does wrong shall receive for the wrong which he has done: and there is no respect of persons. Even so, hold fast My children!" Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which you have, that no man take your crown.

Was the Toronto blessing real? I say yes.

He is opening deaf ears...Ephatha!


read "the fishes" thread...

Miki, I have always heard prophecy in the church given like this.
I actually do not know how you want it to happen. You could perhaps show us the Scriptural way and that way we could all be sure to walk in truth and not assumption. You must agree that is what the Lord wants us to do, ...to do all things according to the Word.



The only other way is to say: Thus I think the Lord might be saying.

How would you speak an encouragement from the Lord to His children?
Prophecy has always happened like this.

Like Fervent and Signet says, one does not have the option to choose how you deliver this, because it is from the Lord. Its one of the gifts.Its a supernatural gift like tongues.

I thought that the Laughter thing came from Toronto but recently some people who went with us in 94 said that the laughter thing came from some where else we had visited. I wasn't impressed with Toronto or any place that I have traveled to see their nonsense. Although this strange occurrence took place which I Immediately recognized the source as "God honors faith". When My son heard about the Gold teeth thing. He went to the bathroom and looked in the mirror and all of his teeth were gold. He went out and showed us and everyone. All of his teeth were solid Gold for two weeks. They even made fun of him and called him a liar at work.

Most of the prophecy of modern days is based on what peoples flesh dictates and desires. None of the prophecies of old were this way. No one was sent to tell you when you were doing good. Even the instructions that tell what is possible come with the "if you will" statement, which no one wants to pay attention to. Instead they miss quote scripture about works and continue worshiping in sin. Praise God it will all end here real soon and everyone written in the book of life will know their place. All of the devils and their messengers will be gone for a thousand years. Yes! Praise God.

Well, you all make it sound like it's some kind of possession you don't have control over...
and to me that's scary.

And why do l always have to be the one to do this? I know. I'm the only one who complains that's why.

Then l say to the rest of you... Don't complain on the forum about anything else either with all your opinions.

Why did Paul speak in 3rd person rather than first about an experience he had? Humility. Because he was humble and didn't want to draw attention to himself and l posted a long thing on this before. And many other scripture and admonitions.

By your own admission according to the scripture you posted it's possible to err so why speak in first person? Why would the Lord have you speak in first person if there is a possibility that you won't speak the way you ought? You don't have control of it?? Feverishly writing?

Come on people... help me out. Or don't you care? Any thing's OK with you as long as you get to keep pretending to have fellowship when you won't work through a problem?!

Common sense. The unction of the Spirit in me. Do we have the same Spirit? Maybe not. Lois posted something on another string that wasn't in first person and l responded to it. It worked for me. I was able to add to it in order to make the thought and idea grow. Together working as one body...each playing a part.

This has nothing to do with a religious spirit Signet. It has to do with a spirit but just not that one. We do have a choice. If you don't think you do...get help right away!

So much has been posted again and again and yet C...you want it posted again..??? I don't get it? Didn't you hear it the last time and the time before that and the time before that? You want it again?

Do you want to wear me out? It's working..l'm about to turn. Not only from those in err but from those who don't stand against it.

And don't wave the judgemental flag at me because l've admitted my faults and weakness and short comings over and over again on this forum and have never pretended to be something l'm not.

I care for you C...I like you!...Larry you too. Lois l don't know and Signet l forgive but maybe you should all have this place to yourself. I really don't want to go but if we can't come to any confluence of the waters perhaps l ought to leave. I really don't want to but what l feel increasingly uncomfortable.

You all voted me off before...even the ones who didn't vote voted...See when you don't speak it's the same as speaking. You just think you're keeping you're hands clean...This l've come to know. Maybe some where down the road like Shekel said, l'll find out l'm wrong and will humbly repent. But right now l don't see it. Just a waving field of wheat and tare sown together. And it's tiring me...

fervently writting...? you have no control of it? You do not write as you ought to? and what is to say as to what you write and how you write it.
ONLY GOD KNOWS OUR HEARTS and our intentions...and if the intentions of the writer is to deceive the Lord's word and will, God will Rebuke because he has taken God's word and used it for his OWN GAIN..

we all fall short of the Glory of God...God have mercy on us all.

Is there a point in giving and receiveing in every day encounters that one stops and asks themself
Oh they just asked me for a piece of bread because they where hungry and Stop and think should I give them a piece of bread or a stone? or does the thought of compassion and love for one another come first, and even so you still have the concious decision on how to act according to the mercy and compassion of Christ Jesus that is Living within each beleiver.

It all boils down to this I beleive....Giving and Receiving and the way it is given and received and how one reacts to the given word...whether it convict the spirit or whether we Rejoice in the Promises of God that he is there to help us "THE COMFORTER" the Holy Spirit renewing each beleiver, IF WE BE SO WILLING or be so stubborn to not admit WE ALL NEED HIS HELP and surrender daily.

All our sins will be KNOWN through the Revelation and Wisdom of God, he is the Strength within us, he is the Finisher of our Faith...we can do nothing aside from Christ Jesus, every breath we take IS GIVEN...let us not LORD take your Word of Truth for granted, your promises are NEW EACH DAY.

Work with what you have been GIVEN...LIFE and live in Christ's love and substance....and think not of what you have not, for all is given to Glorify the Father.

Jesus Christ died on a cross so that we could live in His Mighty embrace, his embrace of forgiveness, of a loving, giving compassionate nature...If we are not receiving this forgiveness, then we are living a lie...for we where created in the Image of God, and GOD IS LOVE...those who suffer suffer for the lack of receivieng and giving love, or feeling underserved of God's free gift.


Not by might, not by power, but by the Spirit sayeth the LORD our God.

Every good and perfect gift comes down from the Father of Lights.

We wrestle not agaisnt the flesh and blood, but of the pricipalities of darkness.

God chastises those he loves. And many will suffer in the hands of those discriminating of what is of God and what is not...(GOD of TRUTH give us peace IN YOU)and he will be the LIGHT of all our paths...for he cannot lie, God is the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Only YOU, ME and God and through much prayer and supplications will God reveal his Truth...and all truth will convict the spirit whether it be of God or man...by the fruit which is produced from God's WORD.

You cannot serve two masters, or you will love one and hate the other.

Let us look to the WORD of Truth, the Living Word of God. He is our maker and deliverer, he is the fruit of the Spirit and will guide us to all truth.

Love the Lord our God with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your mind and your neighbor as yourself. Nothing in the End will matter, but how you loved much and have forgiven much, and how you walk in your Father's embrace....he loves us with all our flaws...and what we may call imperfect God sees us Perfect in the way he intended us as he created us, not how the deceiver would have us beleive that we are Sin...we are not sin but do sin...and yet a Mighty Powerful Maker of all things and of all the Heavens, came down to Earth to dwell among us, and lead us by his Mighty Mercy and Righteousness...be not deceived, but pray and interceed and do the will of our Father whom loves his children.

Miki... I was talking about what true fellowship looks like with a friend of mine just yesterday. We talked about it for quite a long time.

I agree with you. True fellowship IS working through a problem. A relationship that has been tried and tested is a strong one. It is speaking the truth in LOVE (grace without truth is hypocrisy- truth without grace is brutality). To give an example from my own life (sorry- I always do this because I am a practical gal) : My mother used to be a veryt controlling person. I was fearful of disagreeing with her... so I never stood up to her or voiced my true opinions (this was actually SELFISH behavior- "I" didn't want the tension that resulted in conflict, so I just "let her win" or even apologized for her selfish and dictatorial behavior). However, I was hurting HER and my entire family by not telling her the truth about herself. Last spring for the first time, shaking and trembling, I had a real confrontation with her- but I stuck to my guns. It had come to a point where I was either going to obey HER or obey the Lord (and I am a 27 year old WOMAN!). I chose God- and she was ticked. Because of my decision to obey God- my mother is a changed woman. It drove her to her Word (for wrong motives of course, she was trying to prove me wrong- but that's where God dealt with her heart). Now, I am so excited to report that she is growing in the Lord, whereas she "was" just completely dead in the water. She respects my opinions and what I have to add to our "fellowship". Our relationship is nearing a place where I always dreamed it could be. I take no credit for this... none. God is a wonderful deliverer! His mercy endures forever!

Speaking the truth in love- there is that side to fellowship. But... there is always a balance! I think for the most part- we spend too much time "speaking" and not enough time praying to God for a person and for our hearts in self examination.

The enemy hates unity- because it messes with his plans. Satan loves division- that's why the "devil is in the details". If he can get us to disagree, become offended, take sides, set up camp... the sheep scatter, the Gospel isn't preached (because we are focused on our own squabbles), and we look like fools to the world.

I have been on this forum a couple of years now. I've seen many members become offended at some point or another- MYSELF INCLUDED. Some have left- convinced "they" were right...and mad and pious that others simply didn't see the "real" truth. Some members have left because they felt attacked... (and I've seen that happen too). Other members have been the attackers- biting both other people and leadership- only to leave in a tantrum when confronted.

I read the "Toronto Blessing" thread the other day... and one of the writer's objections to the Toronto movement is that the people were entirely too carnal during the supposed outpouring (again- I thought, "don't throw the baby out with the bath water... but I digress). According to the author of the article, there was strife, no peace, no joy... people didn't enjoy relationships with one another that reflected the character and personality of Christ. Wow. What a statement! But seriously... don't most ALL churches deal with this same problem? Doesn't this FORUM??? I read my bible yesterday... the whole book of Philippians. Of all of the churches that Paul planted, Philippi was the only church he accepted financial gifts from. He didn't trust the other churches to be mature enough to help him in ministry- Paul knew their wavering hearts, knew they would attack and accuse him. I could sense a joy and peace when I read this letter... it was almost like Paul could let his hair down a bit. Of course Paul took a few chances to give some fatherly advice, but for the most part, he is comforted and joyful when thinking about this church- comparing their light to stars in the sky. The Philippians were maybe the SOLE church that came close to reflecting real maturity- the glory and beauty of The Body of Christ. Should we think our time any different than the first century church? Should we think this forum any different?

I don't think that we come ANYWHERE CLOSE to what true fellowship looks like. Sharing each other's burdens, letting an offense GO, not talking behind each other's back "behind the scenes" (like in private pms), praying for a brother or sister that has hurt us- the best way to let the Lord work on our OWN hearts- and probably most of all, showing humility. Oh gees. I know I need more of this trait.

I know I have been kinda scattered here... but I hope you are seeing some point in all of this, Miki. But to address your question/problem:

I too am wary of first person prophecy. It scares me a bit. I know that sometimes the individual's flesh does get in the way- and for a person to never fess up to that... to say that they are infallible... to me shows a great lack of humility from the person. BUT THAT'S THE WAY I SEE IT! I met with a lady the other day who was a prophetess... and she spoke some words into my life. She never used the first person- ever. She said instead things like, "The Lord has been showing me..." etc. The truth of what she was saying was kinda scary it was so "on" (it was like she had been reading my diary)... and I can honestly say it was one of the most powerful days of my life. I was rebuked and lifted at the same time- only the Lord can do that!!! The fact that she DIDN'T use first person in no way belittled what she was saying. In fact- it probably helped me to receive the prophecy more... because I wasn't distracted by the "thus saith the Lord" stuff. But God knows me- He knows what I need and how I need it before I even know it. I can't make a complete sweeping judgment about the first person thing- because "having an unction" has not happened to me. Just because it's scary and a little intimidating- I can't completely dismiss it. I don't want to miss God. But- to the first person prophecy people I say- BEWARE. When you start saying that my Daddy said "such and such", I get really interested, but really wary. Father's Word is a treasure- and something to be guarded with ones own life. I have heard the Father speak one time- and He only used three words... but those words changed my life.

So, Miki, to try to bring some sort of clarity to what I'm saying...

I share your concerns. But I don't want to take sides. I want to try to find some way to co-exist. Pray for fervent. Pray for Lois. Ask the Lord to show you His heart for them.

We need you around here. I need you around here. I love you so much... I want to hold your hand- hug you. Pray with you. Just as I wish I could do this with other members.

The only way we can grow is to be honest. Your post is a blessing JHammer...I also had a talk with my mom last spring as if this is a confirmation from Jesus...Don't worry...he is in control....he will definetly finish what he has started in us...no looking back, no way.

Can I ask you what God said to you.???..I think I know.

I also think first prophesy can be scary...I pray we all be humble before the Lord.

You where rebuked and lifted up at the same time...Oh to come to the Grace of our Heavenly Father...like reaching out to touch the hem of his garment...I know this well...his love is so mighty it brings us all to our knees.

tears...

I cried yesterday, when on TV they showed one of the American helicopters go down in Iraq. I was stunned to see as the flames and smoke rose after impact...a bird and it looked like an Eagle, with a white fanned tail...it flew above the smoke and ash...I pointed it out immediately and have it taped...I said to my husband, Did you see that...It looked like an Eagle? I looked up on the Internet if Eagels are in Iraq...and found out there are only about 30 to 40 in Turkey. Was this God showing us something. My heart hurts, this world has become so cruel.

He said:

"You will heal."

(This is a pearl.)

You probably thought He said, "I love you." He's said that to me many times... and I need to hear it and never get tired of hearing it. But... this I actually "HEARD". It was audible. I apologize if this was confusing.

tears, I love you.

I have to respond and I dont know why...
I believe in Prophecy. One time in Church this guy got up in Church and Prophesied to this family and he had no way of knowing what was going on within this family. I did know and this Prophechy blew me away.
Everything he said came true and just like he said. They family had a blessing that day and I got to see it take place.
Everything, every sentence was correct and not was thing was left out of place.
It taught me to understand a little and that is if it is not 100% then is to me false.
In Jeremiah 5:31 it said the prophets prophesy falsely. This means to me the religious leaders mislead the people. In Jeremiah 14:14 God clearly exposed the falsehoods of the prophets. They had no commission from the Lord and they were using pagan divination and the messages spang from deceit.
So to me if it is not 100 % than it is false and there is no question about it in my eyes. So if one thing is out of place I will run from it.
Kim

Finally! ...Thank you, thank you, thank you, for helping me not feel like this old rotten nag that never lets up. I'm running out of chalk and could feel my nails scrapping on the black board! Woe is me.

Beautiful Julie..beautiful...Not only that but what you said about your mom really hit the nail on the head and l realized what else l need to say to my Dad...I'm doing what you did. Trying to keep the peace in his dying days. Linda caught it right away too. Confirmation.

He's hard of hearing so l will have to write. That's better because then l can be twice as careful and edit my own work as we all should do when speaking into someones life. Edit or words!!

And This!!!!



Just what l'm talking about! Thank you thank you thank you!!!

This is wisdom!!!!!!!!!

...as I read this thread I thought of scales falling off of Paul's eyes

...great discussion!

That is precious.

I am not concerned with your belief or disbelief, nor am I in
agreement with your railing against the Holy Spirit and the division
that it causes.

I have done nothing to need your forgiveness,
and I truly do not know what you are talking about,
except I do see your process...

John 12:46

"I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes
in Me should not abide in darkness. "

"And if anyone hears My words and does not believe,
I do not judge him, for I did not come
to judge the world but to save the world."


you keep hitting the dimmer switch...

Now, Now. No need for any drama with the pulling the plug, I am leaving thing here, Miki. Unless ya want to change your name and come back with a different login name. Then I can play guess who's Miki, just like I did in Larry's instance

I came to say that I am just as blind and deaf to what the Holy Spirit has to say to me, yet I carry on believing like those two blind men in Matthew 9:27. I don't have the spiritual eyes to discern who speaks from/of God or who doesn't.

So, I find it curious that anyone who can "spiritually see and discern" can be selective about choosing who here has the Word and is speaking of the Word while claiming all should listen to what this person is saying.

Of course, the "odd balls" are easily spotted, for example someone who might come along and claim he or she is one of the two witnesses, or smokes pot claiming it's they only way to know God (remember Abaddon?).

And, then there are some who might not have the bedside manners to know any better or those having egos like rhinos in a china shop (or was that elephants?), but my realization is that I am not the only one whose spiritually blind. Hooray! (maybe just the only one willing to openly admit it here).

My point here? Ah, I've learned not to take it personnal anymore (hey C-Los, like water off a duck's back...so true!)

But, I do get a lot out of this forum; I believe it's helped me examine my spiritual walk with the Lord and I am pleased Christ led me here, so that to me is worth all the bruising my ego may have taken here

...I am just like a child amongst other children who know just as much as I do, some a little more and some a little less, and that's fine with me

You know that we are free to live according to the light we have. I have no problem with a first person prophetic word. Those who have, should just maybe ignore them as they will not profit them.Some of them bless me and I take them to heart. Just ask God to speak to you in the way He wants to and do not be so bothered by the rest.

I have had two such prophetic word spoken over me. One from a guy from another country who could not possibly have known about me and my problems. He stood up, placed a hand on my shoulder and started thanking God and said. "Thank you God for the glory......" then stopped and when he spoke again he said things that only God could have shown him..they were so private ...yet God spoke this in a meeting in such a way that nobody but me would understand.Since that day I have watched that word grow in my life.It was delivered in the first person. It still rings in my mind and so much of it has come to pass.

The second word was less direct "first person" but it also came to pass.It took about a year to manifest, but it came to pass.

Do not get upset if others do not share your view, its normal. Even Paul talks of it.
Eph 4
11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

What does everyone then want? Is God a supernatural being who actually lives in us or is He an imagined abstract enity we wail out bawling confessions to in the wee dark agonizing hours of our soulish torment? God speaks within the framework of scripture and He will extrapolate that word if need be into a rhema format which will douse you from head to foot in an anointing of the likes of which makes the senses come to attention.

Psa 62:1 <To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David.> Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him [cometh] my salvation. Psa 62:2 He only [is] my rock and my salvation; [he is] my defence; I shall not be greatly moved. Psa 62:3 How long will ye imagine mischief against a man? ye shall be slain all of you: as a bowing wall [shall ye be, and as] a tottering fence. Psa 62:4 They only consult to cast [him] down from his excellency: they delight in lies: they bless with their mouth, but they curse inwardly. Selah. Psa 62:5 My soul, wait thou only upon God; for my expectation [is] from him. Psa 62:6 He only [is] my rock and my salvation: [he is] my defence; I shall not be moved. Psa 62:7 In God [is] my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, [and] my refuge, [is] in God. Psa 62:8 Trust in him at all times; [ye] people, pour out your heart before him: God [is] a refuge for us. Selah. Psa 62:9 Surely men of low degree [are] vanity, [and] men of high degree [are] a lie: to be laid in the balance, they [are] altogether [lighter] than vanity. Psa 62:10 Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart [upon them]. Psa 62:11 God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power [belongeth] unto God. Psa 62:12 Also unto thee, O Lord, [belongeth] mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work.

"At days end. and when night falls upon the earth and My sanctified ones seek rest for their souls from the harrasments of the day, I will be there in their midst with the flame and the oil of My Spirit to maintain a watch over them until they, even they, rise up early to do My next day's bidding. So rest in peace and sleep, My little ones. My humble ones, My soul, My crown and My delight."

For literally hours I heard in my spirit this day as I worked from 0300 to 1100 local time..."In God will I praise His word."

Psa 56:1 <To the chief Musician upon Jonathelemrechokim, Michtam of David, when the Philistines took him in Gath.> Be merciful unto me, O God: for man would swallow me up; he fighting daily oppresseth me. Psa 56:2 Mine enemies would daily swallow [me] up: for [they be] many that fight against me, O thou most High. Psa 56:3 What time I am afraid, I will trust in thee. Psa 56:4 In God I will praise his word, in God I have put my trust; I will not fear what flesh can do unto me. Psa 56:5 Every day they wrest my words: all their thoughts [are] against me for evil. Psa 56:6 They gather themselves together, they hide themselves, they mark my steps, when they wait for my soul. Psa 56:7 Shall they escape by iniquity? in [thine] anger cast down the people, O God. Psa 56:8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into thy bottle: [are they] not in thy book? Psa 56:9 When I cry [unto thee], then shall mine enemies turn back: this I know; for God [is] for me. Psa 56:10 In God will I praise [his] word: in the LORD will I praise [his] word. Psa 56:11 In God have I put my trust: I will not be afraid what man can do unto me. Psa 56:12 Thy vows [are] upon me, O God: I will render praises unto thee. Psa 56:13 For thou hast delivered my soul from death: [wilt] not [thou deliver] my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

Keep listening to the Lord and bring His word, when He wants to bring it through you or any other Christian whom He chooses. On this forum we allow prophecy.
love C

Back to Toronto:

"A DECEPTION made of SUGAR"
- extracts by Arthur Eedle. Vision in 1974

Twenty years ago this month the Lord gave me one of the strangest visions I have ever received, and on reflection I still believe it to be one of the most important, revealing the subtlety of the enemy's intrusion into the end-time works of God. The vision became the subject of our very first edition of The Prophetic Telegraph, which we published on 27th June 1986. In view of the way things have gone in the western world in the last twenty years, we now believe that it is timely to review this vision in the light of developments. The Lord said that in the last days He would send "strong delusion" to those "who received not the love of the truth." This was the basis of the vision, which may now be set down once again for analysis.

The Crown Agents in London had appointed me to teach in the King George V School, Hong Kong.... I was told there were more millionaires per square mile in Hong Kong than anywhere else in the world, and after being there for some time, I could well believe it. Looking back I now believe that what happened next was related to the Hong Kong way of life, as it was going to influence the newly forming charismatic churches in the west. Except that the luxury relates mainly to the spiritual realm rather than the material realm.

As I sat looking at this amazing scene I began to see something else, and because of its strangeness my mind was alerted immediately to the fact that God was conveying truth in visionary form. I saw a duck, and I knew that it had been made of icing sugar because a hand was smoothing down the surface with a knife. When all was complete, the strange thing padded along on its webbed feet as though alive, and settled down on a flat surface somewhere. But if this was strange, the next part of the vision took me even more by surprise, because I saw dozens of people arriving at the duck, and it was only then that I realised how large it was. It must have been all of forty feet tall! The people were excited about the coming of the duck, and some of those who were braver than the rest even went up to it and touched it. One of them licked his fingers and the taste was sweet. Breaking a fragment from the surface he ate it, and jumped for joy. Others gained confidence and followed his example until they were all delirious with excitement. I saw them singing, dancing, throwing up their hands in the air, and embracing each other. The festive atmosphere was its own advertisement. People arrived in droves, pushing and shoving, and climbing over the duck with the aid of ladders in an effort to obtain a handful of icing sugar and join in the fun.

This continued for some time until one man gave a very loud shout, which brought everything to a halt. They saw him pointing to a hole that had appeared in the icing sugar. It was therefore not solid as they had originally thought. No one had imagined the sugar icing might give out sooner or later. After this, caution was exercised in the eating. Everyone agreed to ration what was left. But they found to their joy that even the smallest taste produced the same effects as a handful, and they wished they had learned this lesson earlier. In the process of time many more holes appeared. Some tried looking inside the duck, but all was pitch dark. Nothing could be seen. Gradually the duck became wafer thin. All of a sudden the crash came as the remainder of the duck disintegrated in a cloud of very fine dust. The crowd became silent, waiting and watching.

It took a while for the dust to settle, and then I had a shock. Inside the duck there was a terrible black beast about forty feet long, in shape like a scorpion with bulbous green eyes. It also had wings similar to those of a dragonfly. I fully expected the crowd to disperse at great speed, but instead they became delirious with excitement once again, and accepted the beast as their accredited leader. If anything, the excitement became greater than before. At this point the vision changed, and I saw the hand once again. It was outstretched with some white pills on the palm. A small number of people were arriving to receive one, which they ate. The result showed on their faces as an inner sense of peace and tranquillity. And then the two visions merged. Once again I saw people taking the icing sugar from the duck and jumping about in excitement. The group fromthe second vision were approaching, and mingling with the crowd, warning them, "Don't eat it! It's dangerous!" But there was very little response. Some shouted at them, "Go away, you prophets of doom! Don't tell us that YOU have the Spirit of the Lord. Where is your joy?" Disheartened they eventually wandered away, feeling a dull ache in the pits of their stomachs.

Later on, when I had made a record of the vision, the Lord spoke to me, and I wrote down the message, as follows:-

"The hand that formed the bitter pill fashioned also the duck. This is my work, and by it my name will be magnified. Twenty centuries of progress has not changed the nature of man, and neither has it changed mine, says the Lord. My Son is the Way, the Truth and the Life. All those who reject the bitter pill of the cross will find themselves prey to the lie. I will send them strong delusion, and they will believe it and rejoice in it because their hearts are not set upon the Way. They will accept falsehood in a season of careless security, indulging in spiritual flirtation with powers of darkness dressed up in acceptable guise. They longed for sweet things and I gave them sugar, but it was not in tune with my heart, says the Lord. And each bite of the duck they take, so grows the beast within. And each bite of the duck they take, so blind they become to the truth. And then, when antifaith has done its final work the beast is revealed to the world, enthroned within the temple of God, blasphemously parading divine nature. Mark well my words, says the Lord, there is but one great sign for this world, one marvel, one miracle of challenge that I will accept, and it is the sign of the prophet Jonah. And those who take the bitter pill shall find loneliness, derision and sorrow. And they shall walk the way of their Master, learning of His sorrows, sharing His suffering, conforming to His death. But I shall raise them to life, life on a higher plane, and they shall take my message to the nations. This is my sign, and this shall be their reward. All other ways, however right they may appear to man, shall be disallowed in my sight, says the Lord. And those who eat the duck shall refuse this glory when it is revealed for it shall be folly to them. Choose therefore whilst it is still possible, choose the salt and reject the sugar, says the Lord, for the time is now short."

I should like to display a brief snatch from another vision, one which my wife received in June 1969. She saw a dam across a narrow ravine, and behind the dam there was to start with just a small trickle of water, but over a lengthy period of time the water rose to produce a large lake, and eventually filled the ravine to the top of the dam. At this stage, the dam burst, and the waters flowed out, bright and iridescent, into the valley beyond. The Lord gave the interpretation. The water represented the faith of His people. And the effect of faith was twofold. Firstly, the faith had an effect in the believer's life and his walk. But secondly, the faith had another effect, which was not appreciated by the believer at all. In heavenly places, each act of faith was like the water behind the dam. God was preparing for a yet future day when, in His Kingdom, He could liberate the combined effect of all the faith of His elect, and it would flow out to a needy world. I believe the two visions are essentially the same in their interpretation. But the dam refers to God's work, whereas the duck refers to the counterfeit work.

The people who ate the pills - These have fed on the true word, and have seen the nature of the evil. They pray for the others, and whenever occasion arises, they approach them and warn them, but usually to no avail. Hence the sweetness in the mouth gave way to bitterness of soul at the outcome of their endeavours.

The Lord's hand - Some might be upset when they realise the Lord was the One who designed the duck. But it must be remembered that in olden days, after King Saul's disobedience, the Lord withdrew His Spirit from him, and gave him an evil spirit instead. In each of these cases, the Lord takes full responsibility for what happens, even though Satan was the donor of Saul's evil spirit, as he is also the architect of the duck.

Those who tried to warn the people of the dangers they were facing, only received reviling comments. "Where is your joy?" they asked. But how can you approach such people with a smile, when your task is to warn them of danger? They were drunk with the wine of intoxication, produced by the effects of eating the sugary sweet words of the false prophet, and enjoying the effects.

The Holy Spirit's ministry to believers is essentially towards their re-creation in the Lord's own image. But in these days, at the latter end of the twentieth century, vast numbers of believers look to the Holy Spirit for power, signs and wonders, which instead of crucifying the flesh, tend to feed it. Oh how easy it is to be captivated by all the manifestations of supernatural power today. Many Christians go "conference hopping" in the hope of being present at yet another occasion of "blessing", where they can witness all manner of effects, not just by the preacher and those called to the front, but throughout the auditorium. If believers persist in praying to the Holy Spirit for signs and manifestations, the Holy Spirit cannot answer. It is contrary to the purpose for which the Spirit has come. But there is always "another" who "comes in his own name", and "him you will hear." The crucial decision must be made. Is the flesh being fed, or crucified?

The Lord spoke to my wife some years ago saying, "In these days treat the miraculous very lightly. Look rather to the LIVES of those who profess to have spiritual powers." We have found it a most valuable word.

It is amazing how hard one may become when striving constantly for "power". But those who are striving for mastery (lawfully), "walk in the Spirit and have no confidence in the flesh." All such are progressively broken on the Rock which is Christ, and in brokenness they learn to be gentle, even when acting as salt.

Two final words. First of all, over the years since 1986, when we first started publishing The Prophetic Telegraph, we have frequently warned our readers about these growing tendencies within the charismatic movement. But lest any should think that we doctrinally reject manifestations of God's Holy Spirit in these end days, our testimony is that my wife and I received the baptism of the Spirit in 1967, and have used the gift of speaking in tongues in our private prayer lives ever since. We have also been God's instruments in areas of deliverance ministry, healing, and in receiving visions and revelations from the Lord.

Normally we should not wish to advertise this fact, but it seems necessary to say so at this juncture to avoid being misunderstood.

And secondly, over this period of time we have certainly been too strident and even harsh in our advertisement of the words of warning given to us. The Lord has graciously revealed these areas t us, (mainly myself), and where necessary letters of apology have been dispatched. It is good therefore to reveal this publicly now. My sincere prayer and desire for all those who are being sucked in to this present hyped up atmosphere of spiritual worship, is that the Holy Spirit will bring them through to a stable ground where they can appreciate the "way of the cross" that Jesus taught. I have no antagonism towards any of God's people, no matter what their persuasion is. If God has saved them through the precious blood of His own beloved Son, then they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. May God teach me how to love, and yet retain integrity based upon the revelation granted, until the end come.

Derek Prince on the Torronto Blessing & Brownsville Deception:

http://www.geocities.com/lostorfound_2/Deception.htm

interesting.
i think many get into spiritual gifts and do not like to talk about it. the coin has to sides...it's either a gift or it's demonism.

only way to find out is to talk about it with scripture and see if it adds up. if it doesn't....many arent ready to embrace scripture but rather embrace visual and emotional experience.

I believe what Miki is attempting to do is find some kind of order in all the prophectic things she sees a littering the forum....I also venture out to say that she feels it is just allowed with out moderation and some kind of control... Not so much with Lar, but with all that Lois brings to the table here. As no one unless they are a speed reader can take in all that she is bringing...

I can see why she feels that way...When there are days when I get on here and 95% of the new topics are by Lois, well enough said on that...No offense Lois, I am not trying to offend you...

Miki if I got that all wrong I am sorry, but with our conversation the other day in public that is what I took from it and that is what I understood you were saying...Please correct all that I had wrong....

Though I do believe what would help is for each person to DEFINE what they feel prophecy is to them...By using Scripture of course....Then you can begin to see where in the different beliefs lay and then the healing work can begin and all the offenses laid down...Then someone not in this conversation that is knowledgeable in the Word with maturity can take all the different beliefs and begin the truth process....Use only the bible and not someone else's teaching as well...That way its a pure revelation, it can only be truth that way without error by man....

It would be a great lesson in humiltiy as well and it can show us how teachable we really are....

Peace to ya....OH! And there will be no leaving of the forum, stand and let the truth prevail....

Everyone wants that prophet who comes in the name of the Lord Displaying the Power of the Spirit so that their faith can be built in the Power of God and not in the wisdom of men. Coming soon "Two" who will speak in first person, second person and third person. Bringing the healing, deliverance, fire and proof from heaven with them. Make the crooked path straight.

...okay, icing off a duck's back then

I agree, there is a sad lack of the love of the Word amongst God's people.




Ouch ! Littering is not a nice word to use.We do not have limitations on posts and members are free to post as many as they want.Lois has never posted anything that the moderating team felt to moderate or control.
In fact I would suggest that members spend more time reading them. They have spiritual content and value, whereas a lot of other threads are mere discussions on opinions and points of interest.
As children of God we are actually suppose to be about the things of the Father. Being more into the things of the Word.We are suppose to grow up in the things of the Lord and allow Christ to be formed in us.
We must all grow up into the head which is Christ and we can only do that through faith and knowledge of the Word.
C

Yes, your right littering was the wrong word to use without decribing what I meant...Again, it's looked at how its used...In the term that I used it -- it was not referring to "trash" as one would first think littering would mean right away...The term I used it in was a feeling of clogging the board by posting so many works at one time....That is what I was meaning when I used that word...
As it is felt again, it's hard to read what she puts when so many of the items is placed at one time...The complaint is and was that some here are not mature and need to take bites not the entire plate full at one time...If the cook never stops placing food in front of the immature Christian, the taste gets losts and nothing really comes about it...
I stated the other day that there was not a limitation on how many posts a person could do, everyone is free to post however many they please...That's not where the concerned was...On a sidenote, I did read one I was lead to read and it was inherently incorrect and then quickly deleted when I was lead in to correct it using only Scripture....Unless I am lead to read them by the Lord I do so....

Showing what others have learned in the Lord is one thing, but being grown in the Lord and living what you have learned by the Lord is another...I guess the main question would be: Did the Lord instruct the person posting to post the post OR did the person just share the post? There inlays two different works....One of the flesh and one done in the Lord....

No mention on the idea I suggested about what each believe what prophecy is using what Scripture says and not another's work saying what prophecy is.....That should be the first thing done before any teaching goes further IMHO.....Why? Because Miki, you, HB, C-los and me can have 5 different understanding/beliefs on what we believe prophecy is.....Much is said when there is one accord going on within the Body of Christ...

Okay, this is what I have felt led to say here.
I have loved Lois's posts and if I don't have time
to read them, then I don't read them at that time.

For the life of me, I can't understand why anyone who loves
our Lord wouldn't also love Lois's posts.

I love you all and I have been told by the Lord lately to
be silent. But my silence is over for I extend both arms
out to Lois and pray that this speaks volumes.

I love you all and cannot understand why Fervent's or Lois posts
would be looked down upon. I say keep on sharing what God has
given you. I have received much from your posts Fervent and Lois.

I gain much from many of your posts.
I thank you all for my faith is being built up daily.

Don't forget we all love our Saviour. I pray that we all stay close to Him, for the
days are getting harder and the devil likes nothing better than to divide God's children.

Tonight I am sending hugs to you all, for that is all I know to do right now.

love,
rosie
Oh yes and whose side are we on. Why we are on Christ's side and His side was pierced for us.
Let us break bread, drink a sip of wine and simply remember!
Love you all.