I'm actually reading a lot of "saved by grace" statements lately on these threads. I really enjoy this!
I even looked up "grace" and it's defined as:

1. elegance or beauty of form, manner, motion, or action.
2. a pleasing or attractive quality or endowment.
3. favor or good will.
4. a manifestation of favor, esp. by a superior: It was only through the dean's grace that I wasn't expelled from school.
5. mercy; clemency; pardon: an act of grace.

we know that salvation is a gift from God.
Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

so then how does position ones-self to receive the gift from God?
well...Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

so bringing all this together....i know many of you ensist on water baptism. Some people think that it's some sort of a "must do" in order to be saved and totally disregard the scripture I just posted. Besides that, if we ensist on water baptism then isn't that really us telling God "OK mission accomplished now give me my gift." With that attitide then God isn't excercising His grace because by force He is giving it to us since we just worked for our salvation. Kinda makes you think..... Some here are typing about 3 types of baptism that one must do. *sigh*

So are we saved by grace or not?

The answer is a simple "yes" or "no."


keep responses short and sweet if you dare. no 'cut-n-paste.'


by the way...has anyone read the entire book of Acts? I am 2/3rds of the way there and can tell you that it's interesting how some were water baptized and some were not. So just because there are people being baptized in water (like the eunich [sp?]) then there are also those that weren't (the initial ones that spoke to the mulitudes in Acts 2). If you've read Acts then you will see what I'm saying. If you haven't read Acts then how can one make a valid case?

educate me on why people push water baptism when "grace" is a totally different equation.

Grace is getting something that you do not deserve.

Mercy is NOT getting something that you do deserve.

[quote name='Dani' date='Feb 7 2007, 10:30 AM' post='101148']
Grace is getting something that you do not deserve.

Mercy is NOT getting something that you do deserve.
[/quote]

is there scripture somewhere that supports your statement.
i may have overlooked when God said in His word that we do not deserve grace or salvation.

Can't wait to read your biblical support.

I don't venture into the Debates and controversial issues section very often...when I do it's usually just one post and that is it.

The discussion of grace is always connected to a grace vs. the law skirmish. I'm not going to go there.

If you'd really want to understand what I wrote... start by going about 4 levels deep into the Book of Ruth. You'll get there.

Saved by grace. Water baptism is not needed. Theif on the cross... no baptism there... but in paradise.

[quote name='Dani' date='Feb 7 2007, 01:09 PM' post='101166']
I don't venture into the Debates and controversial issues section very often...when I do it's usually just one post and that is it.

The discussion of grace is always connected to a grace vs. the law skirmish. I'm not going to go there.

If you'd really want to understand what I wrote... start by going about 4 levels deep into the Book of Ruth. You'll get there.
[/quote]

thanks. i gotta find truth 4 levels deep. ok.



someone else can enlighten me?

[quote name='Dani' date='Feb 7 2007, 10:30 AM' post='101148']
Grace is getting something that you do not deserve.

Mercy is NOT getting something that you do deserve.
[/quote]

I understand what you're saying and I agree.

Grace: Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Not of yourselves, gift of God- getting something we did not deserve.

Mercy: Jn 8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He lifted up Himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone.

The adulterous was shown [i]mercy[/i] in not getting what she did deserve.

Thankfully, we have been given salvation by His grace and have received His mercy, as well.

In Christ, Angela

The wages of sin is death. All (except Christ) have sinned.
We are guilty even at conception (within the womb), because we are the offspring of sinners. And we are born (Spiritually) dead, and at enmity with God.

I can't purchase my Redemption with my death, because my life is worthless (i'm a sinner).
Jesus CAN purchase my Redemption with His Death, since He does NOT deserve death. His Life was Worth something.

The wages of sin is death (NOT good works, love, wisdom, money, suffering, etc).
The ONLY proper currency which will purchase my Redemption from DEATH is DEATH.
Good works, sufferings, love, faith, etc WILL NOT purchase my redemption from Death.
The DEATH of Jesus will substitute for my death. (assuming that i believe God).

I would have NEVER done good works for Christ's sake , without FAITH.
I would never have suffered for Christ's sake, without faith.

Why do i do works, and get water-baptism, and suffer the reproach of the Crooss, etc? It's because I BELIEVE God.

Faith comes FIRST. All else follows.

Salvation is by God's Grace, through our faith.
God told US to believe. (believing is OUR job).
Jesus does NOT believe for us.
Paul said "I have kept the FAITH. I have FINISHED the race. I have FOUGHT the good fight. Therefore, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness." (Jesus did NOT "keep" the faith for Paul.........Paul kept the faith.

Grace is un-deserved favor.
We Christians are not righteous, but we are counted as righteous, when we believe. (we get better than we deserve)

So, Jesus REQUIRES us to do good works, and get water-baptized, and preach the gospel, etc.........BUT! we are saved THROUGH FAITH (not through works, obedience, love, suffering, etc)

The sufferings (and good works, love, wisdom, etc) of Jesus did NOT purchase our salvation.
The DEATH of Jesus purchased our salvation.

Faith is the REASON that we obey God.
Faith is the motivation for our "doing good works, baptism, sufferings for Christ, etc".

I believed BEFORE i repented.
I turned from evil works to good works AFTER i believed.
I would have NEVER repented without faith.

faith is the KEY to everything else.
It is impossible to please God without faith.

Abraham was counted as righteous because he believed God.

[quote name='dennis mann' date='Feb 7 2007, 03:08 PM' post='101183']
I would have NEVER done good works for Christ's sake , without FAITH.
I would never have suffered for Christ's sake, without faith.

Why do i do works, and get water-baptism, and suffer the reproach of the Crooss, etc? It's because I BELIEVE God.

Faith comes FIRST. All else follows.

Salvation is by God's Grace, through our faith.
God told US to believe. (believing is OUR job).
Jesus does NOT believe for us.
Paul said "I have kept the FAITH. I have FINISHED the race. I have FOUGHT the good fight. Therefore, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness." (Jesus did NOT "keep" the faith for Paul.........Paul kept the faith.

Grace is un-deserved favor.
We Christians are not righteous, but we are counted as righteous, when we believe. (we get better than we deserve)

So, Jesus REQUIRES us to do good works, and get water-baptized, and preach the gospel, etc.........BUT! we are saved THROUGH FAITH (not through works, obedience, love, suffering, etc)
[/quote]

thank you mann for your response.
so you are saying that water baptism is not salvation but are doing it more because it is a commandment?

i think you are agreeing with me that salvation is through the grace of God as a gift to us.

[quote name='c-los medrano' date='Feb 7 2007, 09:20 PM' post='101187']
[quote name='dennis mann' date='Feb 7 2007, 03:08 PM' post='101183']
I would have NEVER done good works for Christ's sake , without FAITH.
I would never have suffered for Christ's sake, without faith.

Why do i do works, and get water-baptism, and suffer the reproach of the Crooss, etc? It's because I BELIEVE God.

Faith comes FIRST. All else follows.

Salvation is by God's Grace, through our faith.
God told US to believe. (believing is OUR job).
Jesus does NOT believe for us.
Paul said "I have kept the FAITH. I have FINISHED the race. I have FOUGHT the good fight. Therefore, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness." (Jesus did NOT "keep" the faith for Paul.........Paul kept the faith.

Grace is un-deserved favor.
We Christians are not righteous, but we are counted as righteous, when we believe. (we get better than we deserve)

So, Jesus REQUIRES us to do good works, and get water-baptized, and preach the gospel, etc.........BUT! we are saved THROUGH FAITH (not through works, obedience, love, suffering, etc)
[/quote]

thank you mann for your response.
so you are saying that water baptism is not salvation but are doing it more because it is a commandment?

i think you are agreeing with me that salvation is through the grace of God as a gift to us.
[/quote]


Salvation is CERTAINLY a gift! because we can't EARN it. Salvation requires a DEATH. And my DEATH won't count as payment for my Redemption, since my life and death is worthless (apart from Christ).
We trust that the DEATH of Christ buys our salvation.

BUT! God COMMANDED us to do certain things:
Believe God and love God
Love our neighbors
help the poor
preach the Gospel
make disciples , and baptize them
God told us "Be water-baptized"........and "be filled with the Holy Spirit".
and other things

Jesus REQUIRES performance,.....as in.......Jesus told us "If you love anyone more than you love Me, then, you're not worthy of Me."
And "Faith without works is dead (faith)".

We don't know how much "performance, works, etc" He requires.......He didn't give us any specific quantities........But , Paul said "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"........Jesus said "From whom much is given, much is required".
So, perhaps, God REQUIRES more from a mature christian than from a babe-in-christ.

Paul said "The Holy Spirit of Jesus will bear witness with our spirit that we are a child of God".

Not too long ago I heard Kay Arthur say that Mercy is being compassionate towards another without regard of worthiness.

How awesome it is to show just a fraction of the mercy that GOD has shown us to others!

In essense, the mercy we have received from GOD has been given to us without any regard of merit. We have received freely. We did not earn it - what a gift! What else is there to say?

At some point there comes a realization that GOD loves us so much more than we can ever imagine when we consider how unmerited HIS love is for us. I believe that only comes from the working of the HOLY SPIRIT in the hearts of those who have been given the free gift of faith through the hearing of the WORD and responding appropriately. To kneel in prayer, and then be confronted with a taste of the HOLY AWESOMENESS of the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY as presented by the HOLY SPIRIT is beyond words! There is no way to express in sufficient enough terms how that makes one feel.

IMHO. Thanks, and blessings to you all in JESUS CHRIST

"It is by grace you are saved THROUGH faith, not of ourseleves, but a GIFT from God, not of any works, least any man should boast. I think that is Eph 2:8-10. if not, close.

It is because of Gods love toward us, that allows us to be saved. Now, there are some things that you need to do. The Bible says THROUGH FAITH. So because of Grace we CAN be saved, IF we believe.

Believe? Believe in what?

ANSWER: Truely believe that you have sinned against God, and sincerely ask Him to forgive you of your sins. Acknowledge Jesus as your Lord, and promise to serve Him the rest of your life. Recieve Him as Lord.

You do that with a true ginuine, purest heart possible, and truely seek Him, yes you are saved. Soon after I would recommend Baptism, but if you were to die between when you accepted Christ into your life, and say three weeks later on your way to get Baptised you get into a car wreck, I believe you will go to heaven without being Baptised.

We want to get Baptised out of obedience, because our Lord told us to. But it isn't a requirement for Salvation.

1 John 5:6 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, AND THE WATER, and the blood: and these three agree IN ONE.

The water is all ONE with the blood and the spirit. Just as the Son is all ONE with the Father and ONE with the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who tries to diminish the water is as heretical who those who try to remove the blood or who say the Spirit is not necessary for salvation. Besides which they cannot be seperated because they all describe the person of Jesus Christ who by virtue of water, blood and the Spirit lived and died on the earth as a witness on earth to mankind.

[quote name='excubitor' date='Feb 7 2007, 11:39 PM' post='101240']
1 John 5:6 6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood.
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, [b]and the water [/b], and the blood: and [b]these three agree in one.[/b]

Anyone who tries to diminish the water is as heretical who those who try to remove the blood or who say the Spirit is not necessary for salvation. Besides which they cannot be seperated because they all describe the person of Jesus Christ who by virtue of water, blood and the Spirit lived and died on the earth as a witness on earth to mankind.
[/quote]

I think if righteousness came by the Law then Christ died in vain. I believe that once you recieve Christ into your life, and in your heart you want to get baptised, so you tell the Pastor, Priest, whomever. They will schedule you along with others to be Baptised.

That may not happen for a week, two weeks, a month! Doesn't matter. So you recieve the Lord as Savior, and you schedule you Baptism, which is scheduled two weeks from today. Now, trajectly, you are killed by a hit and run driver.

You are saying, (if I understand you correctly), that God is going to punish you and not let you into his Kingdom, becasue the Church scheduled your Baptism two weeks out, you got killed one week out. In your heart you couldn't wait to get Baptised, but you died before the Curch's Baptism schedule opened up.

I don't think so. I believe acknowledging the Cross and Jesus as Lord and repenting is enough.

I don't believe Salvation requirements were added after the Cross. Jesus is the focal point of all things, "not of any works, least any man should boast".

I truely am in the wrong forum, I need to get to Bible Prophecy. Thank you.

[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 8 2007, 03:56 PM' post='101244']
I think if righteousness came by the Law then Christ died in vain. I believe that once you recieve Christ into your life, and in your heart you want to get baptised, so you tell the Pastor, Priest, whomever. They will schedule you along with others to be Baptised.

That may not happen for a week, two weeks, a month! Doesn't matter. So you recieve the Lord as Savior, and you schedule you Baptism, which is scheduled two weeks from today. Now, trajectly, you are killed by a hit and run driver.

You are saying, (if I understand you correctly), that God is going to punish you and not let you into his Kingdom, becasue the Church scheduled your Baptism two weeks out, you got killed one week out. In your heart you couldn't wait to get Baptised, but you died before the Curch's Baptism schedule opened up.

I don't think so. I believe acknowledging the Cross and Jesus as Lord and repenting is enough.

I don't believe Salvation requirements were added after the Cross. Jesus is the focal point of all things, "not of any works, least any man should boast".

I truely am in the wrong forum, I need to get to Bible Prophecy. Thank you.
[/quote]
===================================================================
I agree with your last line.

[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 8 2007, 03:56 PM' post='101244']
I think if righteousness came by the Law then Christ died in vain. I believe that once you recieve Christ into your life, and in your heart you want to get baptised, so you tell the Pastor, Priest, whomever. They will schedule you along with others to be Baptised.

You are saying, (if I understand you correctly), that God is going to punish you and not let you into his Kingdom, becasue the Church scheduled your Baptism two weeks out, you got killed one week out. In your heart you couldn't wait to get Baptised, but you died before the Curch's Baptism schedule opened up.

I don't think so. I believe acknowledging the Cross and Jesus as Lord and repenting is enough.


I truely am in the wrong forum, I need to get to Bible Prophecy. Thank you.
[/quote]

hello my friend.
Everything you said I can agree with but with caution. God gave you the gift of salvation according to all of these beautiful scriptures we have posted. If you want to run and get water baptized well...go ahead...you can but you're salvation has already been given to you when you accept Christ and what He did for you at the cross. That's all. If dipping you in water makes you want to read more then go ahead however be careful of what you do. Thing is, if we spread the idea that we must be water baptized to receive slavation then we start to create gray areas for new believers. we make them think that it is a "must." that's why it's cautionary. We turn the idea of God's gift to us into a work for oursleves to make us feel secure. Some say "i don't feel saved so let me double make sure and make an appointment with the local priest."

Have faith in the scriptures.

Oh and dont listen to excubitor.

God bless you and you are welcome in any forum. We are all here to learn.

[quote name='c-los medrano' date='Feb 8 2007, 04:28 PM' post='101253']

hello my friend.
Everything you said I can agree with but with caution. God gave you the gift of salvation according to all of these beautiful scriptures we have posted. If you want to run and get water baptized well...go ahead...you can but you're salvation has already been given to you when you accept Christ and what He did for you at the cross. That's all. If dipping you in water makes you want to read more then go ahead however be careful of what you do. Thing is, if we spread the idea that we must be water baptized to receive slavation then we start to create gray areas for new believers. we make them think that it is a "must." that's why it's cautionary. We turn the idea of God's gift to us into a work for oursleves to make us feel secure. Some say "i don't feel saved so let me double make sure and make an appointment with the local priest."

Have faith in the scriptures.

Oh and dont listen to excubitor.

God bless you and you are welcome in any forum. We are all here to learn.
[/quote]

Have faith in the scriptures you say? And then quote not a single one of them to support your unchristian notions. What a disgraceful teaching to say A Christian does not need to be baptised. The churches great commission is as follows.
Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

I don't know how plainer it can be, believe and be baptised and you will be saved. Quite different to your corrupt message which is believe and be saved and if you feel so disposed get baptised with caution.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Notice the order of events. It's very easy to follow.
1. The people believed.
2. The people ask What shall we do? Shock horror God forbid that we should want to do anything. That would make it salvation by works. Enter Medranos. No dear people you don't have to do anything. Do something if you want to but its not necessary because you are already saved because you have believed.

Is this how Peter responded. Peter the apostle of the church, the rock upon which the church was built?
Most certainly not. He then told them WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.
3. Repent and
4. BE BAPTIZED to
5. Have your sins remitted then
6. Receive the Holy Spirit

So perhaps you also think that if you just believe you will be saved without repentance either, and without baptism. How then can your sins be remitted? And how can you be saved if your sins are not remitted. Notice also that the Holy Spirit is not given until AFTER baptism. Perhaps you also believe that you can be saved without the Holy Spirit.

I've read enough of your posts now to mark you medranos and counsel all thinking Christians to avoid your false teachings.

Surely the Christian world is rife with phonies teaching a different gospel to the one which Christ and the apostles gave us, seeking to entice new believers into the paths of destruction. If we are to endure to the end we need to be able to discern false teaching which appears subtle and acceptable but when you scrape off the surface you get to see the crude falsehood of lies. MadeInClay presented a tract which seemed christian, acceptable and religious, but with a bit of digging and examination the true nature of the teaching is exposed in all its ugliness by the rude and unsubtle words of less sophisticated teachers like medranos.

take time excub and read these posts. scripture was posted at the beginning. you know...i'm remembering your name quite a bit because you always enter topics with very high opinions but when things are laid in front of you, then you go silent. take time to ask questions.

I agree nor do i negate that there were water baptisms going on after Christ's death. But also add to the fact that not everyone is being water baptized and scripture says they were saved. the thief on the cross, etc. Seems like your into Paul...read 1 Corinth 1:14. I'm not going to post the scripture but make you open your bible. Are you reading how Paul is making the statement that he is thankful he didn't water baptize many of them so they won't get into thinking how necessary it was.
This isn't my teaching by the way. We've been posting scripture and it seems like your not reading. you should read. Read the entire book of Acts. Make it a goal. Read a few pages everyday and before you know it you'll be through.
There has to be a point in your walk when you tell yourself that you will read conitniously from page 1 to the end instead of picking lines up here and there and making conclusions.

I'll let you accuse me of whatever you want. I am confident of what I study. I do not cut and paste and before I accept someone's opinion I verify.

As for why is there baptism's going on in Acts (and why there isnt in some cases)I'll tell you this...Acts is the transitional phase from one dispensation to the next. The Apostles were still casting lots in Acts 2:26, they were still fasting like the old Testament laws Acts 13:2 and many other things that if you read closely you can catch. These wonderful things you will see but you have to read.

Oh and here is a freebie for you. When Peter spoke to the multitudes in Acts 2...Jews were the only ones there. No gentiles...did you know that? salvation wasn't for the gentiles [b]YET[/B]. Well, before you respond and accuse me of something...read.

This board is driving me crazy. Now c-los PM's me and I go to a post of His/Hers, I read it but now I don't see it.

Anyways, c-los, I also do not want to understate the importance of baptism. Although not a requirement for Salvation, it is part of the great commision. Jesus himself was Baptised (as an adult), and I believe we are to be also, in obedience to what Jesus wants us to do.

So it is important, but not necessary for Salvation.

[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 8 2007, 07:05 AM' post='101289']
This board is driving me crazy. Now c-los PM's me and I go to a post of His/Hers, I read it but now I don't see it.

Anyways, c-los, I also do not want to understate the importance of baptism. Although not a requirement for Salvation, it is part of the great commision. Jesus himself was Baptised (as an adult), and I believe we are to be also, in obedience to what Jesus wants us to do.

So it is important, but not necessary for Salvation.
[/quote]

dont let this board drive you crazy.
i just sent you a PM to let you know that you dont have to listen to excub said about "you shouldnt be here in the debates section." you can come and go to whichever forum you want to explore.

and this topic is about "is it necessary to water baptize for salvation."
you're saying "no" and that is what we're discussing. nothing else for now.

God bless

Paul's introduction of his letter to the Corinthians:
[quote]
1co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1co 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1co 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus,
1co 1:5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge,
1co 1:6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
1co 1:7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1co 1:8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/quote]

Now Paul addresses the subject of contention within the church and the absense of a single-mindedness due to a variety of doctrinal beliefs, particularly concerning such things as baptism:

[quote]
1co 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1co 1:11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you.
1co 1:12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
1co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1co 1:15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
1co 1:16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
1co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
[/quote]

Paul continues to explain that there are those who desire to see a sign - a visible sign of repentance and salvation (baptism) or some greater understanding rather than the simplicity of faith in CHRIST, which seems foolish to some ('You can't be a beleiver in CHRIST just because you said some words and claim to believe!') and a stumbling block to others because they are not performing works to 'show' (the law) their faithfulness:
[quote]
1co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1co 1:19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
1co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
[/quote]

The foolishness of the message preached? That is all it takes to receive salvation is the hear the preaching of the WORD? To the Jew this is not 'good enough'! To the Greek (the gentile), ' This is foolishness because I have to know how it works and be able to understand it otherwise it makes no sense! Then just anyone can be saved by hearing and believing and that could not possibly be right!'. Paul continues:

[quote]
1co 1:22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
1co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
1co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1co 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
1co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
[/quote]

As Paul notes, the Jew requests a sign. Without a sign - an outside indicator - the Jew does not think it is real (circumcision, anyone?). The Greek (gentile) thinks that simply hearing a message - a coherent string of words intelligently strung together - could not possibly bring salvation because that is just 'foolishness'. So to the Jew, you must wear, do, eat and believe what I believe to be truly saved. To the Greek, you must be smart, be wise, be witty and knowledgeable to be saved. Stupid people and those who do not belong to our club need not apply because they could never understand!

Paul's response:
[quote]
1co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
1co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
1co 1:31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
[/quote]

So if you want to get wrapped up in water baptism, then that is your call, excub. If a believer is led to be baptised, then do it. No harm there, for the LORD knows all hearts. If a believer is led to fast, again, then do it - the LORD knows all hearts. But to tell people they are not saved because they did not do everything you did is become a judge of who will be saved and who will not.

I think there is obviously one thing we can agree upon - CHRIST came, HE taught the GOSPEL to the lost sheep of Israel, HE was crucified on the CROSS as a sacrfice for all of the sins of all time for all mankind, HE died, HE rose again, and HE IS ALIVE today. HE and the FATHER have sent the HOLY SPIRIT to those who believe by receiving the gift of faith through the hearing of the WORD. And we did not do a thing to deserve it., It is unmerited, and yet we receive it!

Now, lets all play nicely.

Blessings in JESUS name

Acts 16;30 amplified bible
The phillipian jailer asked paul "what is it necessary for me to do that i may be saved?"

they answered, "Believe in and on the ***LORD*** Jesus Christ--that is, give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping, and you will be saved".



My thoughts: Jeus is LORD.....in the above verse

a LORD MUST be obeyed!

the teachings of Christ are not suggestions, options, guidelines, etc........THEY ARE COMMANDMENTS

Many christians don't believe in the LORD-SHIP of Christ Jesus.

None of us obey the LORD ***PERFECTLY***.

So,.......how perfectly must we obey Him, to be saved? The Bible doesn't tell us.
Many christians don't attend church, read the bible, get water-baptized, do foot-washing, make disciples, preach the gospel, etc............ARE THEY SAVED? I don't know..........i'm not their judge.

The LORD is their Judge.

[quote name='dennis mann' date='Feb 8 2007, 07:56 AM' post='101295']
So,.......how perfectly must we obey Him, to be saved? The Bible doesn't tell us.
Many christians don't attend church, read the bible, get water-baptized, do foot-washing, make disciples, preach the gospel, etc............ARE THEY SAVED? I don't know..........i'm not their judge.

The LORD is their Judge.
[/quote]

a family member to me to their church where the pastor had 12 appointed men studying under him. i guess he is really trying to get into the role.

[quote name='dennis mann' date='Feb 8 2007, 08:56 AM' post='101295']
Acts 16;30 amplified bible
The phillipian jailer asked paul "what is it necessary for me to do that i may be saved?"

they answered, "Believe in and on the ***LORD*** Jesus Christ--that is, give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping, and you will be saved".



My thoughts: Jeus is LORD.....in the above verse

a LORD MUST be obeyed!

the teachings of Christ are not suggestions, options, guidelines, etc........THEY ARE COMMANDMENTS

Many christians don't believe in the LORD-SHIP of Christ Jesus.

None of us obey the LORD ***PERFECTLY***.

So,.......how perfectly must we obey Him, to be saved? The Bible doesn't tell us.
Many christians don't attend church, read the bible, get water-baptized, do foot-washing, make disciples, preach the gospel, etc............ARE THEY SAVED? I don't know..........i'm not their judge.

The LORD is their Judge.
[/quote]

You are not referring to (I would imagine) the Spiriual Gift of Faith, correct? If doing all those things you mentioned would give us Salvation, we certainlly could brag about it because we could work perhaps harder than our nieghbor, therefore obtaing a higher favor with God (or so we would think). However, the Bible says..."not of any works lest any man should boast". Mercy!!

The ground at the Cross is level for ALL to come to Him. If someone out there reading this is Gay, I say rock and roll and come in out of the rain. God loves you no matter your background. Don't wait until you "quit" being Gay, Now is the Day of Salvation, God's Word says, and it is His will that ALL come to him.

[quote name='dennis mann' date='Feb 9 2007, 12:56 AM' post='101295']
Acts 16;30 amplified bible
The phillipian jailer asked paul "what is it necessary for me to do that i may be saved?"

they answered, "Believe in and on the ***LORD*** Jesus Christ--that is, give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping, and you will be saved".



My thoughts: Jeus is LORD.....in the above verse

a LORD MUST be obeyed!

the teachings of Christ are not suggestions, options, guidelines, etc........THEY ARE COMMANDMENTS

Many christians don't believe in the LORD-SHIP of Christ Jesus.

None of us obey the LORD ***PERFECTLY***.

So,.......how perfectly must we obey Him, to be saved? The Bible doesn't tell us.
Many christians don't attend church, read the bible, get water-baptized, do foot-washing, make disciples, preach the gospel, etc............ARE THEY SAVED? I don't know..........i'm not their judge.

The LORD is their Judge.
[/quote]

This is a typical example of selective quotation of scripture. The complete passage reads like this.
Acts 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. 32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; AND WAS BAPTISED, he and all his, STRAIGHTAWAY.

If anybody believes, then they should follow the example here go and get baptised straightaway. Not when you can get around to it, not in two or three weeks like someone else here suggested, but as a matter of extreme priority.

And who am I judging except medranos who by his own admission has not been baptised. I tell you now that Christians repent, go to church, read the bible (if they can read), get baptised, confess the name of Jesus Christ (period). Thats what Christians DO. I am quite happy to say that anybody who believes and refuses to be baptised IS NOT SAVED. I have no fellowship with someone who says that they are a Christian and has not been baptised. Why have they not been baptised? What is the excuse? Why would you not want to be baptised. If your heart was right with God you would be baptised.

In the passage in Acts 2 which I quoted in my last post it states.
Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls

So what have I said differently to Peter. Have I not taught you all to be baptised in order to be have your sins forgiven and in order to receive the Holy Spirit?

Why then do you people not receive my words with gladness and joy? Instead you rail against my words with all the bitterness of Simon Magus. Surely your hearts are not right with God for if they were you would receive my words with all readiness of mind. I have not spoken my own words. All I have done is relay the words of Peter. You think you attack me, but you do not. You attack the rock upon which the church was built.

[quote name='gr82bsaved' date='Feb 8 2007, 08:40 AM' post='101293']
Paul's introduction of his letter to the Corinthians:
[quote]
1co 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1co 1:2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1co 1:3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1co 1:4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus,
1co 1:5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge,
1co 1:6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
1co 1:7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1co 1:8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1co 1:9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/quote]

Now Paul addresses the subject of contention within the church and the absense of a single-mindedness due to a variety of doctrinal beliefs, particularly concerning such things as baptism:

[quote]
1co 1:10 Now I plead with you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
1co 1:11 For it has been declared to me concerning you, my brethren, by those of Chloe's household, that there are contentions among you.
1co 1:12 Now I say this, that each of you says, "I am of Paul," or "I am of Apollos," or "I am of Cephas," or "I am of Christ."
1co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
1co 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1co 1:15 lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.
1co 1:16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.
1co 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.
[/quote]

Paul continues to explain that there are those who desire to see a sign - a visible sign of repentance and salvation (baptism) or some greater understanding rather than the simplicity of faith in CHRIST, which seems foolish to some ('You can't be a beleiver in CHRIST just because you said some words and claim to believe!') and a stumbling block to others because they are not performing works to 'show' (the law) their faithfulness:
[quote]
1co 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
1co 1:19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."
1co 1:20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
1co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
[/quote]

The foolishness of the message preached? That is all it takes to receive salvation is the hear the preaching of the WORD? To the Jew this is not 'good enough'! To the Greek (the gentile), ' This is foolishness because I have to know how it works and be able to understand it otherwise it makes no sense! Then just anyone can be saved by hearing and believing and that could not possibly be right!'. Paul continues:

[quote]
1co 1:22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom;
1co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness,
1co 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
1co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
1co 1:26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
1co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
[/quote]

As Paul notes, the Jew requests a sign. Without a sign - an outside indicator - the Jew does not think it is real (circumcision, anyone?). The Greek (gentile) thinks that simply hearing a message - a coherent string of words intelligently strung together - could not possibly bring salvation because that is just 'foolishness'. So to the Jew, you must wear, do, eat and believe what I believe to be truly saved. To the Greek, you must be smart, be wise, be witty and knowledgeable to be saved. Stupid people and those who do not belong to our club need not apply because they could never understand!

Paul's response:
[quote]
1co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
1co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-and righteousness and sanctification and redemption
1co 1:31 that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord."
[/quote]

So if you want to get wrapped up in water baptism, then that is your call, excub. If a believer is led to be baptised, then do it. No harm there, for the LORD knows all hearts. If a believer is led to fast, again, then do it - the LORD knows all hearts. But to tell people they are not saved because they did not do everything you did is become a judge of who will be saved and who will not.

I think there is obviously one thing we can agree upon - CHRIST came, HE taught the GOSPEL to the lost sheep of Israel, HE was crucified on the CROSS as a sacrfice for all of the sins of all time for all mankind, HE died, HE rose again, and HE IS ALIVE today. HE and the FATHER have sent the HOLY SPIRIT to those who believe by receiving the gift of faith through the hearing of the WORD. And we did not do a thing to deserve it., It is unmerited, and yet we receive it!

Now, lets all play nicely.

Blessings in JESUS name
[/quote]

The simplicity of the Gospel. Ahhhhhhh. Breathe the fresh air.

Love it Todd.

Excubitor. Hey, you can believe your way and still GET IN (Heaven)my way of thinking, but I can not GET IN your way of thinking.

So to me you are saved. Moving forward, I do see you are bitter about something. Would you like to share?PM me if you like. I can be a good punching bag if I know going in I am going to be one.

Open up and share with us/me/someone/whomever, and begin the healing process. It is a great thing to do.

you are twisting the scripture gr8

The division in 1 Cor 1 was not about whether or not to be baptised. The division was that Christians were following the men who baptised them and dividing from those who were baptised by someone else. Paul did not baptise for this reason because he wanted to avoid assembling a personal following.

Paul was not a pastor who tends a flock, he was a missionary, an apostle, sent forth to preach the gospel. It is a pastors role to baptise into the body of Christ. Paul is making the point that it makes no difference who did the baptising because we are all baptised into the body of Christ therefore the body of Christ is not divided.

For those intractable folk who disagree with me I refer you to Paul’s letter to the Galatians where he clarifies this point
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

So when do we put on Christ. WHEN WE ARE BAPTISED INTO CHRIST. It is because we (true Christians) are ALL Baptised into Christ that we become united and at one in Christ.

gr8, you condemn my teaching because you say I am teaching that baptism is a sign and that a wicked generation (the Jews) seeks after a sign. Hang on. I have been telling everybody that it is not a sign. It’s madefromclay who was saying that it was an outward confession of something that has already happened. My teaching is that baptism is actually when we die in the flesh, are raised in newness of life, join the body of Christ, have our sins remitted and receive the Holy Spirit. It is not a sign of an event. It is an actual event.

Baptism does not need to be done as a big display in front of many people. When I was baptised there were no massive fireworks or incredible revelations or miracles or movements of the spirit. If it was a sign then it wasn’t a very good one. I got baptised in someone’s backyard in a small swimming pool on a freezing day. The minister said to me. I baptise you in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit Matt 28. At church they announced that I had been baptised. A few kind people came and shook my hand and smiled and that was it.

Signs are for the outward appearance, but inside the heart may be rotten as a core. Let him who is baptised in water seek also the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is witnessed by our spirit and our Lord even though the world may be oblivious.

Excub, I never 'condemned' you for your teaching. Where did I do that? Please show me where I did that in my post. I don't recall ever saying 'Excub, you are condemned!!!! You are a false teacher!!! You are misleading people!!!" Sorry, but I never did anything even close to that. Personally, I see nothing wrong with water baptism because JESUS did it and so did the Apostles. However, I see nothing wrong with believing that we are baptised by the HOLY SPIRIT after having accepted CHRIST as our SAVIOR (John 1:32-34, Luke 3:16). I also can prove that it is not the act of baptism that saves a person:

[quote]
Mr 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
Mr 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mr 16:17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
[/quote]

JESUS told the Apostles: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Belief is the important thing. The disciples had 'unbelief' that JESUS came and rebuked. Belief is a synonym for FAITH. Without faith baptism is useless. But baptism does not save a person. FAITH sacves a person, and that is the free gift given to us by CHRIST through the hearing of the WORD.

What I have said was obviously not in complete agreement with you, and you reacted in a negative, condemning manner. I really do think you are too quick to judge the salvation of others:
[quote]
And who am I judging except medranos who by his own admission has not been baptised. I tell you now that Christians repent, go to church, read the bible (if they can read), get baptised, confess the name of Jesus Christ (period). Thats what Christians DO. I am quite happy to say that anybody who believes and refuses to be baptised IS NOT SAVED. I have no fellowship with someone who says that they are a Christian and has not been baptised. Why have they not been baptised? What is the excuse? Why would you not want to be baptised. If your heart was right with God you would be baptised.
[/quote]

In my opinion, you judge all of the people who were never baptised by water yet still believe in JESUS CHRIST and have been saved. You have judged the thief on the cross next to JESUS when he aksed the LORD JESUS to remember him when HE entered HIS KINGDOM:
[quote]
Lu 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
Lu 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
Lu 23:41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
Lu 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Lu 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
[/quote]

The thief was not baptised yet he is in heaven today! JESUS meant what HE said to that thief on the cross next to HIM, despite the fact the thief was not baptised. So what can you say about JESUS' action? HE accepted the thief, a sinner like you and me, and welcomed him into the kingdom. I did not see anywhere in Luke 23 where JESUS said, "Sure, but only if you are baptised first. Oh wait - too late. Sorry!"

Again, I will stand by this statement: If the HOLY SPIRIT leads you to water baptism, then do it out of obedience to the LORD like anything else HE would tell us to do. I just think you need to be careful when you go around saying that you will not associate yourself with people who are confessing CHRIST with their mouth but are not baptised yet. That is not something the LORD JESUS would do, clearly. No condemnation though. If you feel condemned, please check your own heart. Mine is fine.

Blessings to you in JESUS name.

[quote name='gr82bsaved' date='Feb 9 2007, 02:27 PM' post='101376']
Excub, I never 'condemned' you for your teaching. Where did I do that? Please show me where I did that in my post. I don't recall ever saying 'Excub, you are condemned!!!! You are a false teacher!!! You are misleading people!!!" Sorry, but I never did anything even close to that. Personally, I see nothing wrong with water baptism because JESUS did it and so did the Apostles. However, I see nothing wrong with believing that we are baptised by the HOLY SPIRIT after having accepted CHRIST as our SAVIOR (John 1:32-34, Luke 3:16).
================================================================
excubitor ==> Please show me where I accused you of condemning me. I made no such accusation. What I said was that you were "condemning my teaching" not condemning me. Perhaps criticising my teaching would be a better word. But its not strong enough. You were completely and utterly disagreeing with me to the point of throwing out my teaching. Perhaps you can tell me what word would have been more appropriate, I honestly cant think of one.
========================================



gr8 ==>I also can prove that it is not the act of baptism that saves a person:
[quote]
Mr 16:14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen.
Mr 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mr 16:17 "And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 "they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
[/quote]

JESUS told the Apostles: "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." Belief is the important thing. The disciples had 'unbelief' that JESUS came and rebuked. Belief is a synonym for FAITH. Without faith baptism is useless. But baptism does not save a person. FAITH sacves a person, and that is the free gift given to us by CHRIST through the hearing of the WORD.
======================================================
excubitor ==> You call this proof. You're joking. These scriptures prove what I teach. That belief is inextricably linked with baptism and is required for salvation. So lets see Now on the left side is salvation and that comes to those who believe and are baptised; and on the right side is those who do not believe
and are condemned. Oh yes but then we have this strange subset of people who believe and are not baptised. What shall we do with them. Hmmm. Perhaps purgatory or maybe even limbo while we figure it out.

Clearly believers get baptised in order to be saved and non-believers don't get baptised so it would be incongruous to include baptism in the condemnation side.
==================================================================

What I have said was obviously not in complete agreement with you, and you reacted in a negative, condemning manner. I really do think you are too quick to judge the salvation of others:

In my opinion, you judge all of the people who were never baptised by water yet still believe in JESUS CHRIST and have been saved. You have judged the thief on the cross next to JESUS when he aksed the LORD JESUS to remember him when HE entered HIS KINGDOM:
[quote]
Lu 23:39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us."
Lu 23:40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?
Lu 23:41 "And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong."
Lu 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom."
Lu 23:43 And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
[/quote]

The thief was not baptised yet he is in heaven today! JESUS meant what HE said to that thief on the cross next to HIM, despite the fact the thief was not baptised. So what can you say about JESUS' action? HE accepted the thief, a sinner like you and me, and welcomed him into the kingdom. I did not see anywhere in Luke 23 where JESUS said, "Sure, but only if you are baptised first. Oh wait - too late. Sorry!"
[quote]
===============================================================
excubitor ==> You seem a bit squeemish about calling me a false teacher. I have no such compunction with regards to your teaching which is clearly a false and anti-christian heresy. To not be baptised is a grevious and continuing sin. I deny that a person who sins day in, day out, month after month, year are year can be saved. You are being dishonest here I have already dealt with the issue of the thief on the cross and Abraham and all the prophets, none of whom were baptised. I'm not a fool. If the thief on the cross had survived and come down off the cross to enter a life of rebellion refusing to be baptised then he would not be saved either because of the evidence of outright wilfull and continuing disobedience.

===================================================================
gr8 ==> Again, I will stand by this statement: If the HOLY SPIRIT leads you to water baptism, then do it out of obedience to the LORD like anything else HE would tell us to do. I just think you need to be careful when you go around saying that you will not associate yourself with people who are confessing CHRIST with their mouth but are not baptised yet. That is not something the LORD JESUS would do, clearly. No condemnation though. If you feel condemned, please check your own heart. Mine is fine.

=====================================================================
excubitor ==> How can the Holy Spirit lead one to be baptised if the Holy Spirit is not given until AFTER BAPTISM. Rubbish I hear your intractable hard hearted nature say.
Well I'll show you that EVEN THE APOSTLES did not have the Holy Spirit until AFTER they were baptised. Surely not I hear you say. Well notice this passage in
Acts 8:14 Now when the APOSTLES which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: ONLY THEY WERE BAPTISED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS.) 17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

So here Peter and John were praying that the Apostles (full on believing apostles) would receive the Holy Ghost like all the baptised people had. So we see that the Holy Spirit is imparted by baptism and the laying on of hands. Now of course the harsh critic who "yes buts everything" will kick in and say well the apostles were not baptised, they only had the laying on of hands. This is incorrect because the apostles were themselves baptists, baptising in the name (on behalf) of Jesus. This is explained in John 4 which explains this
John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John , 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,) 3 He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee.
So here the baptisms of John are contrasted with the baptisms of Jesus. But Jesus did not baptize any except the disciples and then the disciples baptised the people on behalf of and in the name of Jesus. So when the pastor baptises us or does anything else for that matter in Jesus' name it is as if Jesus himself was baptising the person. Now the point here is that all of those people who were baptised by the disciples did not receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit was not given until the Day of Pentecost shortly after Christs death. Those who had been baptised in Jesus' name required the laying on of hands to receive the Holy Spirit. This is why to this day when the priest baptises he lays on hands for the person to receive the Holy Spirit.

The necessity of baptism is further affirmed by Jesus who said in the chapter immediately prior this.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

So you think that baptism is not necessary. That is a direct contradiction to this scripture which clearly shows that if you are not baptised you cannot enter into the kingdom of God. So what about the man who comes to faith because he finds a page in the Bible while he is in a dungeon and he comes to believe in Jesus and there is no preacher to baptise him? And then he is martyred in prison. Is he condemned? The Bible does not cover this incredibly unlikely situation. Nor does it cover the fate of aborted babies, or the christian who suicides or dies of a drug overdose, or the christian who gets alzheimers and apparently sins. Or any other of a hundred other scenarios. For these things I understand that Christ judges the heart and the intent whereas I cannot. But in bald faced situations which are clearly covered in the Bible I have no difficulty in judging right from wrong. Even Jesus was baptised by John in order to demonstrate what is right and what is the correct order of things and to demonstrate the completeness of christianity.
Matt 3:15 Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Excub,
I don't condemn your teaching. I just disagree with your premise. If you think that disagreeing is condemnation then look it up in the dictionary. The two words - condemn and disagree - are not synonymous.
[quote]
gr8, you condemn my teaching because you say I am teaching that baptism is a sign and that a wicked generation (the Jews) seeks after a sign. Hang on. I have been telling everybody that it is not a sign. It’s madefromclay who was saying that it was an outward confession of something that has already happened. My teaching is that baptism is actually when we die in the flesh, are raised in newness of life, join the body of Christ, have our sins remitted and receive the Holy Spirit. It is not a sign of an event. It is an actual event.
[/quote]

Again, I do not disagree that water baptism is important. It is! Being baptised is an important step in faith. However, it is not what saves a person. You think it is! You also claim that believers do not receive the HOLY SPIRIT until they are baptised. Again, there is more scriptural evidence that says that the believer is reborn the moment they accept CHRIST than after they are baptised in water.

One does not receive the HOLY SPIRIT after baptism - the thief on the cross clearly contridicts that as one example. He received the HOLY SPIRIT and called JESUS LORD (Lu 23:42 Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, REMEMBER ME when You come into YOUR KINGDOM." ). He knew who JESUS was because the HOLY SPIRIT was upon him. We can not call JESUS LORD unless the HOLY SPIRIT is in us (1co 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. ) Yes, we receive the HOLY SPIRIT FIRST, and water baptism is an outside indicator of faith in CHRIST. But baptism itself does not provide salvation.

You have added baptism as a requirement to be saved, and by doing so, you judge others who have been baptised as unsaved. Not that your judgement matters anyway. You are in no position to do so, since your position is clearly not scriptural. In addition, you are also saying that JESUS' death on the cross is not enough. That one other condition remains, and that is water baptism. That stand is clearly contridicated in scripture as well.

I am not interested in calling you a a 'false teacher' as you seem so interested in wanting me to do. Call me what you want, Excub, but I suggest that you rachet it down a bit and reexamine what you are saying. You have made your point, and I disagree with it. However, others may agree with you. If your intent is to persuade me, you have not a snowball's chance in an oven. I will stick with my understanding of the WORD, and you can stick with yours. We will agree to disagree.

Once again, because I know you will not let this go - I have debated your type before - water baptism is important. However, it is not what saves the believer. It simply can not be and still be in accord with other scripture regarding salvation.

Here is an interesting article I read about baptism. You can find it at http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html. Please take the time to read it and the other links it refers to. Again, I do not deny the importance of baptism. But I do deny that it is a requirement of salvation.

John 3:3-7, “Jesus answered and said to him, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.' Nicodemus said to Him, 'How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?' Jesus answered, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, "You must be born again."'"

When first considering this passage, it is important to note that nowhere in the context of the passage is baptism even mentioned. While baptism is mentioned later in this chapter (John 3:22-30) that is in a totally different setting (Judea instead of Jerusalem), and at a different time from the discussion with Nicodemus. This is not to say that Nicodemus was unfamiliar with baptism, either from the Jewish practice of baptizing Gentile converts to Judaism, or from John the Baptist’s ministry. However, simply reading these verses in context would give one no reason to assume that Jesus was speaking of baptism, unless one was looking to read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions “water” is unwarranted.

Those who hold baptism to be required for salvation point to “born of water” as evidence. As one person has put it, “Jesus describes it and tells him plainly how—by being born of water and the Spirit. This is a perfect description of baptism! Jesus could not have given a more detailed and accurate explanation of baptism.” However, had Jesus actually wanted to say that one must be baptized to be saved, He clearly could have simply stated, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9: Titus 3:5).

We should also not lose sight of the fact that when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus; the ordinance of Christian Baptism was not yet in effect. This important inconsistency in interpreting Scripture is seen when one asks those who believe that baptism is required for salvation why the thief on the cross did not need to be baptized to be saved. A common reply to that question is: “The thief on the cross was still under the Old Covenant and therefore not subject to this baptism. He was saved just like anyone else under the Old Covenant.” So, in essence, the same people who say the thief did not need to be baptized because he was “under the Old Covenant” will use John 3:5 as “proof” that baptism is necessary for salvation. They insist that Jesus is telling Nicodemus that he must be baptized to be saved, even though he also was under the Old Covenant. If the thief on the cross was saved without being baptized (because he was under the Old Covenant), why would Jesus tell Nicodemus (who was also under the Old Covenant) that he needed to be baptized?

If “being born of water and the Spirit” is not referring to baptism, then what does it mean? Traditionally, there have been two primary interpretations of this phrase. The first is that being “born of water” is being used by Jesus to refer to natural birth (with water referring to the amniotic fluid that surrounds the baby in the womb) and that being born of the “Spirit” indicates spiritual birth. While that is certainly a possible interpretation of the term “born of water” and would seem to fit the context of Nicodemus’ question about how a man could be born “when he is old,” it is not, in my opinion, the best interpretation given the context of this passage. After all, Jesus was not talking about the difference between natural birth and spiritual birth. What He was doing was explaining to Nicodemus his need to be “born from above” or “born again.”

The second common interpretation of this passage and the one that I believe best fits the overall context, not only of this passage but of the Bible as a whole, is the one that sees the phrase “born of water and the Spirit” as both describing different aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be “born again” or “born from above.” So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water and the Spirit,” He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Throughout the Old Testament (Psalm 51:2; Psalm 51:7; Ezekiel 36:25) and the New Testament (John 13:10; John 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22), water is often used figuratively of spiritual cleansing or regeneration that is brought forth by the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5).

The Barclay Daily Study Bible describes this concept in this way: “There are two thoughts here. Water is the symbol of cleansing. When Jesus takes possession of our lives, when we love Him with all our heart, the sins of the past are forgiven and forgotten. The Spirit is the symbol of power. When Jesus takes possession of our lives it is not only that the past is forgotten and forgiven; if that were all, we might well proceed to make the same mess of life all over again; but into life there enters a new power which enables us to be what by ourselves we could never be and to do what by ourselves we could never do. Water and the Spirit stand for the cleansing and the strengthening power of Christ, which wipes out the past and gives victory in the future.”

Therefore, the “water” mentioned in this verse is not literal physical water but is referring to the “living water” that Jesus promised the woman at the well in John 4:10 and the people in Jerusalem in John 7:37-39. It is the inward purification and renewal that is produced by the Holy Spirit that brings forth spiritual life to a dead sinner (Ezekiel 36:25-27; Titus 3:5). Jesus reinforces this truth in John 3:7 when He restates the fact that one must be born again, and that this newness of life can only be produced by the Holy Spirit (John 3:8).

There are several reasons why I believe this to be the correct interpretation of the phrase “born of water and the Spirit.” First of all, we should note that the Greek word translated “again” has two possible meanings. The first one is “again,” and the second one is “from above.” Nicodemus apparently assumed the first meaning “again” and found that idea incomprehensible. That is why he could not understand how as a grown man he could re-enter his mother’s womb and be “born again” physically. Therefore, Jesus restates what He had just told Nicodemus in a different way so that it would be clear that He was referring to being “born from above.” In other words, both “born from above” and “born of water and Spirit” are two ways of saying the same thing.

Second, it is important to note that the Greek grammar in this verse would seem to indicate that “being born of water” and “being born of the Spirit” are thought of as one item, not two. Therefore, it is not speaking of two separate births, as Nicodemus incorrectly thought, but is speaking of one birth, that of being “born from above” or the spiritual birth that is necessary for anyone to “see the kingdom of God.” This need for one to be “born again,” or to experience spiritual birth, is so important that Jesus tells Nicodemus of its necessity three different times in this passage of Scripture (John 3:3, 3:5, 3:7).

Third, water is often used symbolically in the Bible to refer to the work of the Holy Spirit in sanctifying a believer, whereby God cleanses and purifies the believer’s heart or soul. In many places in both the Old and New Testaments, the work of the Holy Spirit is compared to water (Isaiah 44:3; John 7:38-39).

Jesus rebukes Nicodemus in John 3:10 by asking him: “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?” This implies that what Jesus had just told him was something Nicodemus should have known and understood from the Old Testament. What is it that Nicodemus, as a teacher of the Old Testament, should have known and understood? It is the fact that God had promised in the Old Testament that a time was coming in which He would: “sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” (Ezekiel 36:25-27). Jesus rebuked Nicodemus because he had failed to recall and understand one of the key Old Testament passages pertaining to the New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:33). Nicodemus should have been expecting this concept. Why would Jesus have rebuked Nicodemus for not understanding baptism considering the fact that baptism is nowhere mentioned in the Old Testament?

While this verse does not teach that baptism is required for salvation, we should be careful not neglect baptism’s importance. Baptism is the sign or the symbol for what takes place when one is born again. Baptism’s importance should not be downplayed or minimized. However, baptism does not save us. What saves us is the cleansing work of the Holy Spirit, when we are born again and regenerated by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5).

[quote name='dennis mann' date='Feb 7 2007, 03:08 PM' post='101183']
The wages of sin is death. All (except Christ) have sinned.
We are guilty even at conception (within the womb), because we are the offspring of sinners. And we are born (Spiritually) dead, and at enmity with God.

I can't purchase my Redemption with my death, because my life is worthless (i'm a sinner).
Jesus CAN purchase my Redemption with His Death, since He does NOT deserve death. His Life was Worth something.

The wages of sin is death (NOT good works, love, wisdom, money, suffering, etc).
The ONLY proper currency which will purchase my Redemption from DEATH is DEATH.
Good works, sufferings, love, faith, etc WILL NOT purchase my redemption from Death.
The DEATH of Jesus will substitute for my death. (assuming that i believe God).

I would have NEVER done good works for Christ's sake , without FAITH.
I would never have suffered for Christ's sake, without faith.

Why do i do works, and get water-baptism, and suffer the reproach of the Crooss, etc? It's because I BELIEVE God.

Faith comes FIRST. All else follows.

Salvation is by God's Grace, through our faith.
God told US to believe. (believing is OUR job).
Jesus does NOT believe for us.
Paul said "I have kept the FAITH. I have FINISHED the race. I have FOUGHT the good fight. Therefore, there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness." (Jesus did NOT "keep" the faith for Paul.........Paul kept the faith.

Grace is un-deserved favor.
We Christians are not righteous, but we are counted as righteous, when we believe. (we get better than we deserve)

So, Jesus REQUIRES us to do good works, and get water-baptized, and preach the gospel, etc.........BUT! we are saved THROUGH FAITH (not through works, obedience, love, suffering, etc)

The sufferings (and good works, love, wisdom, etc) of Jesus did NOT purchase our salvation.
The DEATH of Jesus purchased our salvation.

Faith is the REASON that we obey God.
Faith is the motivation for our "doing good works, baptism, sufferings for Christ, etc".

I believed BEFORE i repented.
I turned from evil works to good works AFTER i believed.
I would have NEVER repented without faith.

faith is the KEY to everything else.
It is impossible to please God without faith.

Abraham was counted as righteous because he believed God.
[/quote]


[color=#CC0000]Wow dennis and I agree on something. That is scary

I would also add that faith without works, isn't faith. It is lip service. So it is not the Water that saves you but it is actually having faith to do what God tells you to do. If you refuse to do it, then you really don't have faith. You are trying to do it your way, not Gods. Does it make sense? Not to man, it seems foolish. So to the question as to why we need Baptism. Because Gods tells us to and I have enough faith in him to obey. The question then becomes are you going to obey or are you going to stubbornly hold on to your pride.

God Bless,
Kansas Dad[/color]

[quote name='Kansasdad' date='Feb 9 2007, 10:45 AM' post='101446']

[color=#CC0000]Wow dennis and I agree on something. That is scary

I would also add that faith without works, isn't faith. It is lip service. So it is not the Water that saves you but it is actually having faith to do what God tells you to do. If you refuse to do it, then you really don't have faith. You are trying to do it your way, not Gods. Does it make sense? Not to man, it seems foolish. So to the question as to why we need Baptism. Because Gods tells us to and I have enough faith in him to obey. The question then becomes are you going to obey or are you going to stubbornly hold on to your pride.

God Bless,
Kansas Dad[/color]
[/quote]

"I would also add that faith without works, isn't faith. "

oh boy here come the Catholics ha ha just kidding.

works are done through man. Salvation is a gift God gives you.

They are on different quations. Works is not a cause and effect of salvation.
the only cause and effect is: "Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

now, if i remember correctly, you believe that God takes away salvation. Also, if my mind serves me well, you have to keep "working" to keep your salvation.
KD, it's already bad enough we are trying to talk to certain Christian brothers to clear smoke then you come in with totally different doctrine.
you little rascal!

You folks need some serious work on your quotation brackets, quotes, ect. Makes for a dificult read when they are not separated ot highlighted.. Just an observation.

[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 9 2007, 05:46 PM' post='101503']
You folks need some serious work on your quotation brackets, quotes, ect. Makes for a dificult read when they are not separated ot highlighted.. Just an observation.
[/quote]

We (the moderators) don't allow members to use the quotes and other tags in this forum, B. The reason is because we have had too many athiests and others use the debate and controversial issues forum as an advertising campaign by leaving links to distasteful sites, etc. Unfortunately, we do not have a way to separate out the URL tag from the rest at the tags for the moment, so all of the tags are disabled for this forum. We have discussed turning them back on, and perhaps we will soon.

Thanks!

Todd

[quote name='gr82bsaved' date='Feb 9 2007, 06:21 PM' post='101509']
[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 9 2007, 05:46 PM' post='101503']
You folks need some serious work on your quotation brackets, quotes, ect. Makes for a dificult read when they are not separated ot highlighted.. Just an observation.
[/quote]

We (the moderators) don't allow members to use the quotes and other tags in this forum, B. The reason is because we have had too many athiests and others use the debate and controversial issues forum as an advertising campaign by leaving links to distasteful sites, etc. Unfortunately, we do not have a way to separate out the URL tag from the rest at the tags for the moment, so all of the tags are disabled for this forum. We have discussed turning them back on, and perhaps we will soon.

Thanks!

Todd
[/quote]
Hi Todd. Why am I unable to edit?

[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 9 2007, 07:44 PM' post='101523']
[quote name='gr82bsaved' date='Feb 9 2007, 06:21 PM' post='101509']
[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 9 2007, 05:46 PM' post='101503']
You folks need some serious work on your quotation brackets, quotes, ect. Makes for a dificult read when they are not separated ot highlighted.. Just an observation.
[/quote]

We (the moderators) don't allow members to use the quotes and other tags in this forum, B. The reason is because we have had too many athiests and others use the debate and controversial issues forum as an advertising campaign by leaving links to distasteful sites, etc. Unfortunately, we do not have a way to separate out the URL tag from the rest at the tags for the moment, so all of the tags are disabled for this forum. We have discussed turning them back on, and perhaps we will soon.

Thanks!

Todd
[/quote]
Hi Todd. Why am I unable to edit?
[/quote]

Hi B,
You should be able to. Lets move this to a PM, okay? thanks

[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 9 2007, 07:44 PM' post='101523']
[quote name='gr82bsaved' date='Feb 9 2007, 06:21 PM' post='101509']
[quote name='barnabas' date='Feb 9 2007, 05:46 PM' post='101503']
You folks need some serious work on your quotation brackets, quotes, ect. Makes for a dificult read when they are not separated ot highlighted.. Just an observation.
[/quote]

We (the moderators) don't allow members to use the quotes and other tags in this forum, B. The reason is because we have had too many athiests and others use the debate and controversial issues forum as an advertising campaign by leaving links to distasteful sites, etc. Unfortunately, we do not have a way to separate out the URL tag from the rest at the tags for the moment, so all of the tags are disabled for this forum. We have discussed turning them back on, and perhaps we will soon.

Thanks!

Todd
[/quote]
Hi Todd. Why am I unable to edit?
[/quote]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dear Todd and moderators,
Grace and Peace to you all through the Living WORD of GOD.

Please accept my opinion concerning the Colors,Quotes,Tags, etc... in this forum.
Clear communication is important in any forum.
I personally use RED when quoting Jesus.. BLUE when quoting any scripture other than Jesus' quotes..
GREEN when quoting some other forum member.. PURPLE when quoting myself..ORANGE when quoting
an outside source other than scripture or forum members.

This forum ends up very hard to read and alot of miscommunication and frustration is the result
for many.
If ANY undesirable links are posted you have the ability to delete them. We all have the choice to go to
or not go to any link that someone gives.
I think if you took a poll on whether or not to have Colors, Tags, Quotes, etc... enabled you will find an
overwhelming desire of the forums members to have them enabled.

There has been many times I have seen a scripture with it's refference quoted and then the posters
personal opinion immediately following thus giving the impression that the opinion was part of the
quoted scripture. Though, maybe not intended, it is very deceitfull. This is a stumbling block to any baby
in the Word.

We ALL need to be very clear and concise to give proper credit where credit is due. ESPECIALLY to the
Author and Finisher of our Faith.

In this thread alone there is alot of heresy being written. I (and maybe many others also) tend to not
post in this forum because the Colors, Tags, Quotes, etc... are disabled. I will post today in this forum
but only under protest that it should have ALL the conveniences that the rest of the forum has.

Peace, Tom

I am always around controvery, lol. I will say I like this site allot, it just takes getting used to the diferent ways you go about things. I suppose if I would read your rules upfront, I would know them by now.

I just think most forums are the same generic rules (respect to others, ect.), that when joing a new forum, I don't want to read the rules. I want to join and post my thoughts. But to me no biggie either way.

I have a site of my own (I won't mention it), and I have this Hacker who comes there every day and signs up under a diferent vulgar user name, so it show up on the bottom of the front page. He has been doing it every day for about 8 months. So if you have rules that are diferent, just tell me them and I'll abide by them.

It is a shame however that the good guys always have to pay for the bad guys.

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

Eyes to see and ears to hear to you all through the Living WORD of God.


I have read through this whole thread and it's rather disturbing to see some of the things that are
believed by some.
My first post above was addressed to Todd and the other moderators. Please contact them and
express your desires to have the Colors, Quotes, Tags, etc... enabled if your as frustrated as me
concerning this.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Very important docturnal precepts are being discussed in this forum. I would have posted before
today concerning them but I have not because of the Colors, etc... issue.

I will try to be as clear as possible in this post so ALL may learn. TRUTH cannot be figured out with
man's intelligence. It MUST be revealed by the Holy Spirit. So go to our Savior and seek the Father
through the Son that the Holy Spirit may teach you ALL things.

We know the we are "Saved by Grace".

So.. WHAT IS GRACE???
GRACE is the revelation of God's will.
GRACE is the revelation of TRUTH.
GRACE is God's teaching(revealing) to us

GRACE alone does not save us!!!

When mixed with FAITH believing what God has said it is attributed unto us as righteousness.

God spoke to Abraham.. That's GRACE.
Abraham believed God and obeyed.. That is having FAITH believing. If Abraham did not obey
God (by FAITH) then he never would have counted as righteous.

God spoke to Noah.. That's GRACE.
Noah believed God and obeyed.. By FAITH he obeyed God and was counted as righteous. If Noah
did not obey God (by FAITH) then he never would have been counted as righteous.

We are saved by GRACE, ie., the TRUTH, the WORD, through FAITH (action).
FAITH is substance
FAITH is evidence.
Without action..substance..evidence.. There is no Faith.

****SCRIPTURE QUOTE****
Titus 2:11,12
11. For the GRACE of God which brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12. TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously,
and godly, in this present world.
****END OF SCRIPTURE QUOTE****

The GRACE of God "brings" salvation. Without it we can't be saved.
but
If we do not by FAITH walk in(obey) the Truth, Revelation, TEACHING, Light.. that has been given
to us then we cannot be counted as righteous. If we do not obey what God has shown us..which
is His WORD then we are not showing any belief in it's TRUTH. FAITH believing demands obedience.
FAITH without obedient works is dead.

Jesus/Jahshua is the WORD of God. The WORD is the WAY, the WORD is the TRUTH, and the WORD is
the LIFE.

Without the GRACE of God... TEACHING..Knowing right from wrong we could not be saved.
Without obedience (by FAITH) to that GRACE we cannot be saved.

We must be a "DOER" of the Grace that is given to us not only a hearer.
Read Mat.7:21-27 and Mat.12:50 and James 1:22

****SCRIPTURE QUOTE****
James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only,*deceiving(cheating) your own selves.
****END OF SCRIPTURE QUOTE****

Read also verses 23-25 of James 1
The only man blessed in his deed is the 'doer' of the work.

If we could be saved by only hearing the Word of God then every man will be saved because "the Grace
that BRINGS salvation has appeared to all men".

When we preach, teach, and witness the TRUTH of God then we minister GRACE to the hearers.

****SCRIPTURE QUOTE****
Eph.4:29
Let no *corrupt communication(evil words) proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister GRACE to the hearers.

****END OF SCRIPTURE QUOTE****

I pray this helps you c-los and others.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now let's look briefly at BAPTISM

The Greek word which is translated as BAPTISM means to WHELM or make WHELMED.

To WHELM means to overcome or engulf completely: OVERWHELM.

Just because you see the word translated BAPTISM, BAPTIZED, BAPTIZING, etc... in the scripture does
not mean with water.

****SCRIPTURE QUOTE****
Acts 1:4,5
4. And being assembled together with[them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem,
but >Jesus speaking<
"wait for the promise of the Father, which" saith he, "ye have heard of me.
5. "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days from now".

Mat.3:11 (John the Baptist speaking)
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that comes after me is mightier than I, whose
shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

****END OF SCRIPTURE QUOTE****

John the Baptist *baptized(overwhelmed) with water.

Jesus baptizes(overwhelms) with the Holy Ghost.

Who do you go to for salvation??? John the Baptist or Jesus?
----------------------------------------------------------------------

There are many points that posters have made in this thread that are nothing more than a bunch of
blind guide lies.

We must worship God in Spirit and Truth. > John 4:24

The Holy Ghost is our teacher. > John 14:26

Every true believer is taught by the Holy Ghost. > John 6:45

Teaching for doctrines the commandments of men is *vain(worthless) worship. > Mat.15:9
(One such commandment is water baptism. Another is eating the Lord's supper.)

By your words are you justified and by your words you shall be condemned. > Mat.12:37

If you preach something that is not true then you're a liar.
You're bearing false witness against the Lord.

ALL liars will have their place in the lake of fire. > Rev.21:8

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOW... Let's look at the great commission.

****SCRIPTURE QUOTE****
Mat.28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, BAPTIZING(overwhelming) them in the NAME of the Father, and
of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

****END OF SCRIPTURE QUOTE****

First notice that it is a single name. Not three names.

The actual NAME that we are to OVERWHELM people with...
is
The WORD of GOD > Rev.19:13

Jesus came in His Father's name. >The WORD

He is the WORD made flesh.

There is no other NAME under heaven whereby a man must be saved.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOW..

let's tie GRACE and BAPTISM together.

God writes his commandments on every mans heart. That's called morality and it separates us from
every other living thing. That's GRACE.

When a man seeks to obey that GRACE within himself the Father draws that person to His Son. When a
man seeks God with his whole mind, his whole heart and ALL of his strength that's the day that he finds
Him.
We must walk (by FAITH) in the measure of the gift of GRACE(teaching) that is given to us. If we walk in the
Light as he is in the Light then we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ
cleanses us from all sin.
He washes us with the washing of water by the WORD.
We are made clean through the Words that he has spoken to us.

When we are obedient to the GRACE that God gives us He gives us with the Holy Ghost. > Acts 5:32

We eat of his body(THE WORD) and we drink of His blood(THE WORD) and we abide in Him. So then are
we His Disciples indeed if we KEEP His WORD.

****SCRIPTURE QUOTES****

Mat.5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

James 3:2
For in many things we offend all If any man offend not in word, the same [is] a perfect man,
[and] able also to *bridle(control) the whole body.

****END OF SCRIPTURE QUOTES****

If we are taught by God then what we speak will be TRUTH and we will be no offense to Him and perfect.

There are many blind guide pastors and blind guide seminarys that are teaching damnable heresies with
their unbridled tongues.

Have FAITH in God alone to teach you and bring to your remembrance whatsoever He has taught you
so His anointing will be upon the words you speak.

BEWARE of false prophets(preachers)!!!

Peace, Tom

Tomcat, welcome.

I started reading your response and before I address some things that I do not agree with let me commend you on things that I've said before and you and eye are seeing eye to eye.

"Just because one reads the words 'baptism' do not assume that it's water..."
oh man...this is a line that I've said before and still gets people upset because I'm treading on their beliefs. But I say it and leave it alone.

now to address something you said:
"So.. WHAT IS GRACE???
GRACE is the revelation of God's will.
GRACE is the revelation of TRUTH.
GRACE is God's teaching(revealing) to us

GRACE alone does not save us!!!"

totally dismissed Eph 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

I started reading your examples such as "God spoke to Abraham.. That's GRACE. etc."
If I said "God spoke to Moses that's grace because Moses obeyed God..." True that Moses was a devout Jew but Moses doubted he could accomplish the things God asked of him. So to say that God spoke to "so and so" is not Grace. Moses doubted himself and hence doubted Truth.God is Truth and God chose Moses. God has a plan and he looks for men that can help execute His plan: Ez 22:30 "I looked for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand before me in the gap on behalf of the land so I would not have to destroy it, but I found none." He found Moses in this case and Moses didn't even know he could do what God was asking of him. So I will kindly put aside what you are saying what Grace is to "so and so..."

Putting some things in perspective,
God is justice and righteousness that because of our sinful nature we deserve condemnation. But through His grace he provides us salvation. It protects us from the condemnation we deserve and gives us everlasting life. That is grace.

If you want to get into the technicalities of what is "really believing in accepting the gospel" then that's one thing but to take a route of "teaching, walking, etc...." then you are making salvation a process like it's not instantaneous.
it is instantaneous. that's why there will always be Christians that have gone to church for over 20 years and still babies and mature believers that have gone to church for a lot less. You can read about the two types throughout the New Testament. Whether mature, or baby, if they believed and accept Jesus Christ then they are granted everlasting life and that is in writing.
Now...what if someone doesn't "walk in the Word..." or rejects to learn anything that the Holy Spirit teaches?
well....those are called out throughout the bible and I don't even know where to start because there are so many. However, I will end with this scripture because it is put so beautifully:
"Heb 12:3For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."

i may jump in this thread later on in the week. i had some time tonight to address some comments you made.
God bless.

[quote name='c-los medrano' date='Feb 9 2007, 10:59 AM' post='101448']
[quote name='Kansasdad' date='Feb 9 2007, 10:45 AM' post='101446']

[color=#CC0000]Wow dennis and I agree on something. That is scary

I would also add that faith without works, isn't faith. It is lip service. So it is not the Water that saves you but it is actually having faith to do what God tells you to do. If you refuse to do it, then you really don't have faith. You are trying to do it your way, not Gods. Does it make sense? Not to man, it seems foolish. So to the question as to why we need Baptism. Because Gods tells us to and I have enough faith in him to obey. The question then becomes are you going to obey or are you going to stubbornly hold on to your pride.

God Bless,
Kansas Dad[/color]
[/quote]

"I would also add that faith without works, isn't faith. "

oh boy here come the Catholics ha ha just kidding.

works are done through man. Salvation is a gift God gives you.

They are on different quations. Works is not a cause and effect of salvation.
the only cause and effect is: "Eph: 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

now, if i remember correctly, you believe that God takes away salvation. Also, if my mind serves me well, you have to keep "working" to keep your salvation.
KD, it's already bad enough we are trying to talk to certain Christian brothers to clear smoke then you come in with totally different doctrine.
you little rascal!
[/quote]








You can try to dismiss me as"oh he is just a Catholic wink wink " all you want c-los. But it is you who has come in with smoke and mirrors and a totally different doctrine.

You need to read Toms explanation on Grace and Faith again, it is spot on.

Now to his dismissal of Baptism we should look at this a little deeper. I think the analysis was incomplete. It did not entail all of which the Bible has to say about Baptism. It is dangerous to only take a few verses with out taking other related verses into account. It gives you an incomplete picture.


[url=http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/baptism.html]



A note for those that get offended with anything Catholic. This is a very comprehensive study on the subject. It looks at everything the entire Bible has to say about Water, Baptism, the Holy Spirit and the actual practices of the Apostles. There are places where the Catholic Teaching is defended. If this bothers you just pretend the word Catholic isn't there. Look to the content of the study. And Yes I know it is long but often answers are not so simple. They take much study.


Please please resist the notion to go off on the Catholic Church here. The source is irrelevent, lets examine the content.

God Bless,
K.D.

Don't take it like that KD. You're in the debates and Controversial section.


This tickled me when i read it "You need to read Toms explanation on Grace and Faith again, it is spot on.

Now to his dismissal of Baptism we should look at this a little deeper. I think the analysis was incomplete. "


priceless...

[quote name='c-los medrano' date='Feb 12 2007, 02:48 PM' post='101871']
Don't take it like that KD. You're in the debates and Controversial section.


This tickled me when i read it "You need to read Toms explanation on Grace and Faith again, it is spot on.

Now to his dismissal of Baptism we should look at this a little deeper. I think the analysis was incomplete. "


priceless...
[/quote]


If you can not recognise that they are two different issues then I am a little concerned. If you are implying that, if he was incomplete on one issue then he is also incomplete on the other, that is only an assumption. One you should not make off hand.

K.D.

[quote name='Kansasdad' date='Feb 13 2007, 04:01 AM' post='101851']

[url=http://www.catholic-legate.com/articles/baptism.html]

A note for those that get offended with anything Catholic. This is a very comprehensive study on the subject. It looks at everything the entire Bible has to say about Water, Baptism, the Holy Spirit and the actual practices of the Apostles. There are places where the Catholic Teaching is defended. If this bothers you just pretend the word Catholic isn't there. Look to the content of the study. And Yes I know it is long but often answers are not so simple. They take much study.


Please please resist the notion to go off on the Catholic Church here. The source is irrelevent, lets examine the content.

God Bless,
K.D.
[/quote]

Wow, fantastic article. I thought I was an island in my beliefs. The article expresses exactly what I have been saying in this thread and in the madefromclay thread which I have come to believe from my personal bible study. I did not realise that the reason I was having so much trouble convincing people of this view of baptism is because it was a Catholic "eewwww" belief. What narrow minds.

Protestantism might have corrected a few things but it has botched up an enormous amount of doctrine. If it were not for the incredible brainwashing that went on in the schools a couple of hundred years ago, with schoolboys having to learn by rote all the catechisms, there's no way that thinking Christians could get many of the protestant teachings from the Bible. I'm not going to be a product of indoctrination or narrow mindedness though. If the catholics are right in a certain teaching according to the Bible, then they are right. Simple as that. Sola Scriptura. Yeah right. Sola Scriptura as long as you don't get an answer that looks remotely catholic.

Thanks for the link to this article KD. Excellent stuff. I wouldnt go to the extent of saying that Tom's post was spot on. It was heading in the right direction but quite confused in his understanding of Grace and faith. At least it wasn't entirely apostate though like medranos beliefs are.

[quote name='excubitor' date='Feb 12 2007, 04:44 PM' post='101881']
[quote name='Kansasdad' date='Feb 13 2007, 04:01 AM' post='101851']
Protestantism might have corrected a few things but it has botched up an enormous amount of doctrine. If it were not for the incredible brainwashing that went on in the schools a couple of hundred years ago, with schoolboys having to learn by rote all the catechisms, there's no way that thinking Christians could get many of the protestant teachings from the Bible. I'm not going to be a product of indoctrination or narrow mindedness though. If the catholics are right in a certain teaching according to the Bible, then they are right. Simple as that. Sola Scriptura. Yeah right. Sola Scriptura as long as you don't get an answer that looks remotely catholic.

[/quote]

I am proud to be non-Catholic. I welcome you and KD to www.christian-forum.net.
Take a pen and paper and take notes.

thank you guys for your time, see you in other threads.


let's move from the drama and get back to the topic at hand.

SORRY DELETED WRONG POST> THIS SHOULD APPEAR BEFORE medranos LAST POST
[quote name='c-los medrano' date='Feb 13 2007, 10:54 AM' post='101885']
[quote name='excubitor' date='Feb 12 2007, 04:44 PM' post='101881']
[quote name='Kansasdad' date='Feb 13 2007, 04:01 AM' post='101851']
Protestantism might have corrected a few things but it has botched up an enormous amount of doctrine. If it were not for the incredible brainwashing that went on in the schools a couple of hundred years ago, with schoolboys having to learn by rote all the catechisms, there's no way that thinking Christians could get many of the protestant teachings from the Bible. I'm not going to be a product of indoctrination or narrow mindedness though. If the catholics are right in a certain teaching according to the Bible, then they are right. Simple as that. Sola Scriptura. Yeah right. Sola Scriptura as long as you don't get an answer that looks remotely catholic.

[/quote]

I am proud to be non-Catholic. I welcome you and KD to www.christian-forum.net.
Take a pen and paper and take notes.


[/quote]

You say Catholic with a sneer. You don't even know why you dislike Catholics. You just do because your Mum told you to. This is the narrow minded bigotry taught to little kids in Northern Island so that they will hurl rocks and venom at Catholics.

I grew up a Protestant, and I can never imagine myself going to a Catholic church. However I cannot deny that a large portion of protestant belief is incorrect. Arminianism which is Wesley and the methodists also recognised this and tried to swing back the pendulum toward biblical truth to some extent but with limited success.

I will not reject the Catholic church as it is the mother of us all. Every protestant church came out of the Catholic church. All of the church fathers in the West were Catholics. If we reject Catholics and all their teachings we throw the baby out with the bathwater. Erasmus who gave us the Textus Receptus was a catholic. All the protestant fathers grew up as catholics. Many reformers did not break off from the Catholic church and chose to reform from within, which they achieved to great affect without perverting the gospel nor rejecting the age old doctrines of the church.

So what are we? Protestors, That's wh