I once was told by the Lord, "If I waited for any man to be perfect before I used him, none would be used, for all have sinned and fall short of My glory."
I have this thing even yet that speaks to my need to address the masses from a point of perfection and yet see that sullied approach through sulied flesh. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophets. Isaiah saw God high and lifted up and his comment was Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
My natural eyes have not seen, but I am one of those blessed for the word of God says elsewhere Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. Did you know that with God, believing is seeing?
But there is a call to go on to perfection, scripturally clear and evident so it is a thing to strive towards...
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Full Version: To Be Or Not To Be
One of the things l've been shown recently is that there is a difference between the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit...The manifest presence of Jesus and the Manifest presence of God.
What Isaiah saw was the manifest presence of God. None see this in the flesh and live but l believe Isaiah saw in his Spirit man... believing is only remotely connected as to the manifest presence of God. He manifested him self a speck to me...because l was doubting...go figure. I couldn't get off my knees all day.
I said this before in another post...remember the old adage..Wait till your Father gets home. I see his manifest presence in a frightening way. I believe that is why he needed to present himself through Christ and the Holy Spirit or no one could come to him...Just my thoughts.
What Isaiah saw was the manifest presence of God. None see this in the flesh and live but l believe Isaiah saw in his Spirit man... believing is only remotely connected as to the manifest presence of God. He manifested him self a speck to me...because l was doubting...go figure. I couldn't get off my knees all day.
I said this before in another post...remember the old adage..Wait till your Father gets home. I see his manifest presence in a frightening way. I believe that is why he needed to present himself through Christ and the Holy Spirit or no one could come to him...Just my thoughts.
QUOTE(Miki @ Feb 7 2007, 08:04 AM) [snapback]101139[/snapback]
One of the things l've been shown recently is that there is a difference between the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit...The manifest presence of Jesus and the Manifest presence of God.
What Isaiah saw was the manifest presence of God. None see this in the flesh and live but l believe Isaiah saw in his Spirit man... believing is only remotely connected as to the manifest presence of God. He manifested him self a speck to me...because l was doubting...go figure. I couldn't get off my knees all day.
I said this before in another post...remember the old adage..Wait till your Father gets home. I see his manifest presence in a frightening way. I believe that is why he needed to present himself through Christ and the Holy Spirit or no one could come to him...Just my thoughts.
I think that is one reason why Christ came in the flesh in the first place..so we could see the Father though Him....(knowing no one can otherwise see God and live)
Joh 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?
I actually pondered this today, about perfection, except I had viewed if from the point of being flawed. I believe that God is real, though many would not give the notion of God a second thought, but carry on with their daily life, experiencing what they think is real. I wondered "can I be wrong?"
Well, for one I do not know that God is real for I cannot prove God's existence to anyone, I can only profess my belief that he is real and that I believe in the blood of Christ.
But, I have been wrong many times in my beliefs, and I take it to mean that I am flawed....I am also stubborn and still insist on believing God is real.
In the purest sense of reasoning then my belief in God (that he is real) is also potentially flawed. So, I can't be wrong all the time otherwise God would not be real; something has got to give, and I would bet the bank that the Lord is as real as my heart desires.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
By the above verse it is God who is made perfect, if one counts weakness as a flaw. This then is the source of my struggle, in that I have faith in Christ and in all that he said as though he was once a man who breathed the same air I breath today, and that he ascended to heaven. But, that I am also a flawed person in my beliefs, and all things being equal, my faith in Christ is also subject to being flat out wrong. Pardon the pun but no sacred cows here
Being aware of my falicies while still placing a tremendous faith in the Lord then makes me a innocent man, for I could easily try to take the high or easy road by either saying one, "I am never wrong," deny my own faults and still believe in Christ, or two dismiss Christ altogether.
But, for me to live daily with my inisistence that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit is real while suffering from my admission that I could be wrong in everything including that the Lord is real is akin to laying the sword to my neck.
...wow, this really is the narrow path that Christ had talked about.
Well, for one I do not know that God is real for I cannot prove God's existence to anyone, I can only profess my belief that he is real and that I believe in the blood of Christ.
But, I have been wrong many times in my beliefs, and I take it to mean that I am flawed....I am also stubborn and still insist on believing God is real.
In the purest sense of reasoning then my belief in God (that he is real) is also potentially flawed. So, I can't be wrong all the time otherwise God would not be real; something has got to give, and I would bet the bank that the Lord is as real as my heart desires.
2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
By the above verse it is God who is made perfect, if one counts weakness as a flaw. This then is the source of my struggle, in that I have faith in Christ and in all that he said as though he was once a man who breathed the same air I breath today, and that he ascended to heaven. But, that I am also a flawed person in my beliefs, and all things being equal, my faith in Christ is also subject to being flat out wrong. Pardon the pun but no sacred cows here
Being aware of my falicies while still placing a tremendous faith in the Lord then makes me a innocent man, for I could easily try to take the high or easy road by either saying one, "I am never wrong," deny my own faults and still believe in Christ, or two dismiss Christ altogether.
But, for me to live daily with my inisistence that God, Christ and the Holy Spirit is real while suffering from my admission that I could be wrong in everything including that the Lord is real is akin to laying the sword to my neck.
...wow, this really is the narrow path that Christ had talked about.
Paul is clear about being perfect. Its only difficult to understand if we leave faith out of the picture.
Paul looks at perfection in two ways.
1. Being already perfect through faith . Calling things which are not as if they were. Seeing the end from the beginning. So he is sometimes telling us that we are already perfect, because Jesus said it is finished and God finished His works before the foundation of the earth. So he claims perfection through faith.
2. He sees that it is not manifested in him yet. He dies daily and tells us that we have not yet attained perfection.
Look here in Phill 3 Paul writes 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
but now look, just after this he says:Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Ha, so now he says they are perfect! So he is taking it by faith.
I think that it is showing us that we must first use faith to place us (by faith) into the correct position. Even if we cannot see it. Like with healing...it comes when we see that it has happened already. So we need faith to please our Father.
Colossians 1:28
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. This is suppose to happen here on earth.
Problem has always been that we look at ourselves and not at the power of God or His faithfulness.
I cannot be perfect, but He has the power to perform this in me IF I have the faith.
Its impossible to please God without faith.
Our whole walk is about faith.
So if all else fails, just believe this scripture. Believe it because: Our Father said so!
Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
Paul looks at perfection in two ways.
1. Being already perfect through faith . Calling things which are not as if they were. Seeing the end from the beginning. So he is sometimes telling us that we are already perfect, because Jesus said it is finished and God finished His works before the foundation of the earth. So he claims perfection through faith.
2. He sees that it is not manifested in him yet. He dies daily and tells us that we have not yet attained perfection.
Look here in Phill 3 Paul writes 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
but now look, just after this he says:Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Ha, so now he says they are perfect! So he is taking it by faith.
I think that it is showing us that we must first use faith to place us (by faith) into the correct position. Even if we cannot see it. Like with healing...it comes when we see that it has happened already. So we need faith to please our Father.
Colossians 1:28
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. This is suppose to happen here on earth.
Problem has always been that we look at ourselves and not at the power of God or His faithfulness.
I cannot be perfect, but He has the power to perform this in me IF I have the faith.
Its impossible to please God without faith.
Our whole walk is about faith.
So if all else fails, just believe this scripture. Believe it because: Our Father said so!
Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
I have faith that his blood is the covering of my flawed nature.
When God looks at me he sees the blood. Not what's under it.
You are striving for perfection.. I'm not so optimistic. I just trust the sacrifice made for an imperfect soul. It's discouraging sometimes. But encouraging too. Because Jesus was perfect for me and died in my place...for my imperfections.
When God looks at me he sees the blood. Not what's under it.
You are striving for perfection.. I'm not so optimistic. I just trust the sacrifice made for an imperfect soul. It's discouraging sometimes. But encouraging too. Because Jesus was perfect for me and died in my place...for my imperfections.
Sure Cornellius, certainly Miki. But does anyone understand the gravity of my post? Can anyone absolutely profess God is real, salvation is real, the blood of Christ is real on the level of bringing forth physical, argumentively, sound proof? As undeniable as the Statue of Liberty that stands on Ellis Island? I would say any Christain would be hard pressed to prove God exists by saying he or she knows and then by demonstrating that knowledge by conjuring God or Christ. I do not believe anyone can prove their salvation to anyone else; mine to you or yours to me. It's like that video Pamela had posted on the atheist who spouted every correct syntax, condition and doctrine on Christ yet he professed he did not believe in God.
If God is real, which I do believe He is, only He would know the state of my soul as he would also be my judge.
These days are not like the days of Moses where the apparent was made when God had manifested himself as a column of fire leading the nation of Israel out of Egypt. As far as anyone today is concerned, particularlly the agnostic or the atheist those sorts of stories of the Bible could be a mythical legend.
I could be wrong because I don't know, yet I believe that Christ is real, and not just as the Son of God but is God. That is profound to me. Can any Christian admit that they could be wrong about God yet still believe in God? I can. I learned to do so because I am flawed. I am so willing for my consciousness to be squashed just to make room for the idea of God to be real to me.
What this tells me is the state of perfection in this world is an illusion and to claim to obtain it is invitation to self deception. Further it seem folly to try to obtain it. I believe this was Paul's struggle. Striving for the prize was not to achieve perfection in this world but to endure no matter how conflicted the faith is in Christ, and to me it seems this is done by God's sufficent grace who is made perfect by my weakness, i.e. my flawed self.
If God is real, which I do believe He is, only He would know the state of my soul as he would also be my judge.
These days are not like the days of Moses where the apparent was made when God had manifested himself as a column of fire leading the nation of Israel out of Egypt. As far as anyone today is concerned, particularlly the agnostic or the atheist those sorts of stories of the Bible could be a mythical legend.
I could be wrong because I don't know, yet I believe that Christ is real, and not just as the Son of God but is God. That is profound to me. Can any Christian admit that they could be wrong about God yet still believe in God? I can. I learned to do so because I am flawed. I am so willing for my consciousness to be squashed just to make room for the idea of God to be real to me.
What this tells me is the state of perfection in this world is an illusion and to claim to obtain it is invitation to self deception. Further it seem folly to try to obtain it. I believe this was Paul's struggle. Striving for the prize was not to achieve perfection in this world but to endure no matter how conflicted the faith is in Christ, and to me it seems this is done by God's sufficent grace who is made perfect by my weakness, i.e. my flawed self.
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 7 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]101197[/snapback]
Sure Cornellius, certainly Miki. But does anyone understand the gravity of my post? Can anyone absolutely profess God is real, salvation is real, the blood of Christ is real on the level of bringing forth physical, argumentively, sound proof? As undeniable as the Statue of Liberty that stands on Ellis Island? I would say any Christain would be hard pressed to prove God exists by saying he or she knows and then by demonstrating that knowledge by conjuring God or Christ. I do not believe anyone can prove their salvation to anyone else; mine to you or yours to me. It's like that video Pamela had posted on the atheist who spouted every correct syntax, condition and doctrine on Christ yet he professed he did not believe in God.
If God is real, which I do believe He is, only He would know the state of my soul as he would also be my judge.
These days are not like the days of Moses where the apparent was made when God had manifested himself as a column of fire leading the nation of Israel out of Egypt. As far as anyone today is concerned, particularlly the agnostic or the atheist those sorts of stories of the Bible could be a mythical legend.
I could be wrong because I don't know, yet I believe that Christ is real, and not just as the Son of God but is God. That is profound to me. Can any Christian admit that they could be wrong about God yet still believe in God? I can. I learned to do so because I am flawed. I am so willing for my consciousness to be squashed just to make room for the idea of God to be real to me.
What this tells me is the state of perfection in this world is an illusion and to claim to obtain it is invitation to self deception. Further it seem folly to try to obtain it. I believe this was Paul's struggle. Striving for the prize was not to achieve perfection in this world but to endure no matter how conflicted the faith is in Christ, and to me it seems this is done by God's sufficent grace who is made perfect by my weakness, i.e. my flawed self.
In a direct word from God the Holy Spirit one time early on in His advent to my life, the Lord said to me, "The proof of My love is in your salvation." It has kept me aware that He "is" ever since. My proof of God is in the works He has done in my life and how it has changed me from an unsightly caterpillar into a morph at least of a butterfly in the sunshine of His love. Heb 11:6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Oh yes Fervent that is so true! When I look at my life and see what only God could do, I have no doubts.Its Him alright. I could not change by myself.
I am off to a cell meeting...I will answer Miki later.
love C
I am off to a cell meeting...I will answer Miki later.
love C
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 7 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]101197[/snapback]
Sure Cornellius, certainly Miki. But does anyone understand the gravity of my post? Can anyone absolutely profess God is real, salvation is real, the blood of Christ is real on the level of bringing forth physical, argumentively, sound proof? As undeniable as the Statue of Liberty that stands on Ellis Island? I would say any Christain would be hard pressed to prove God exists by saying he or she knows and then by demonstrating that knowledge by conjuring God or Christ. I do not believe anyone can prove their salvation to anyone else; mine to you or yours to me. It's like that video Pamela had posted on the atheist who spouted every correct syntax, condition and doctrine on Christ yet he professed he did not believe in God.
If God is real, which I do believe He is, only He would know the state of my soul as he would also be my judge.
These days are not like the days of Moses where the apparent was made when God had manifested himself as a column of fire leading the nation of Israel out of Egypt. As far as anyone today is concerned, particularlly the agnostic or the atheist those sorts of stories of the Bible could be a mythical legend.
I could be wrong because I don't know, yet I believe that Christ is real, and not just as the Son of God but is God. That is profound to me. Can any Christian admit that they could be wrong about God yet still believe in God? I can. I learned to do so because I am flawed. I am so willing for my consciousness to be squashed just to make room for the idea of God to be real to me.
What this tells me is the state of perfection in this world is an illusion and to claim to obtain it is invitation to self deception. Further it seem folly to try to obtain it. I believe this was Paul's struggle. Striving for the prize was not to achieve perfection in this world but to endure no matter how conflicted the faith is in Christ, and to me it seems this is done by God's sufficent grace who is made perfect by my weakness, i.e. my flawed self.
Salutations.
The state of perfection in the world, is an illusion. Perfection is a person, Jesus.
To be perfect is to be whole, and wholeness is truth. We are perfected through
Him as we are conformed to His image. In Isaiah it says that He was despised
and rejected, and acquainted with sorrows.
Certainly, we, too enter into that place and it humbles us...that He blesses us
with this revelation of Himself.
We, cannot attain unto it, or obtain it on our own..for it is a living relationship
and a reality more profound than anything that is. In Him we live and breathe
and have our being. Yes, persevere and live unto Christ.
Jesus is the Giver and the Gift. And you are at the altar.
It is the most profound love that has the Beloved calling us, and drawing us to
Himself. To be aware of it is the gift in itself of His molding us into His image,
so aware of our failings and the flesh we are wrapped in, that we struggle to
get out and fly...That is the crucible of our testing. Press through.
Joy comes in the morning.
Raise your hands unto God, and your voice unto God for a few minutes,
when you read this. Sing unto God and praise Him, for the spirit of heaviness,
until you feel the heaviness break,He will bless you there at your place of
breakthrough.
Signet
HB...are you so shallow that you don't even pay attention to how God reveals himself? I'm not being mean or sarcastic in this question because l already know that you're not... but am flabbergasted as to why a Christian would even ask that question. Maybe it's hook and bait? 
Just look around you. Can you not see the proof?
That's one view...
Another view more centristic..more personal.
We see his work as we pray daily. In little things, all the time, all around us, he reveals himself. He's Spirit and his ways are higher than our ways. So you're not going to have the Red Sea part every day. Not to say he won't part it if he so deems necessary.
I don't seek after a sign anyway. Just his approval.
That's what l need from my Father. (tears) So my next step is...
What pleases him?
To love my neighbor. To forgive others because he died to forgive me. To learn his word and desire relationship with him above all others... To offer up my flesh as a living sacrifice..denying it daily. To worship him in Spirit and in truth. Is that so hard?
When l diligently seek him in spirit and in truth he rewards me by revealing himself.
In little ways and in big ways...He causes me to see him.
He's my shepherd and he leads me in the way l should go so my life will bring honor to his name. Even in dark times the foreboding shadow of death can't overtake me in trembling for he's by my side.
When he prepares the table before me in the presence of my enemies is probably the most humbly satisfying...even having not experianced the fullness of that yet....
HB
Just look around you. Can you not see the proof?That's one view...
Another view more centristic..more personal.
We see his work as we pray daily. In little things, all the time, all around us, he reveals himself. He's Spirit and his ways are higher than our ways. So you're not going to have the Red Sea part every day. Not to say he won't part it if he so deems necessary.
I don't seek after a sign anyway. Just his approval.
That's what l need from my Father. (tears) So my next step is...
What pleases him?
To love my neighbor. To forgive others because he died to forgive me. To learn his word and desire relationship with him above all others... To offer up my flesh as a living sacrifice..denying it daily. To worship him in Spirit and in truth. Is that so hard?
When l diligently seek him in spirit and in truth he rewards me by revealing himself.
In little ways and in big ways...He causes me to see him.
He's my shepherd and he leads me in the way l should go so my life will bring honor to his name. Even in dark times the foreboding shadow of death can't overtake me in trembling for he's by my side.
When he prepares the table before me in the presence of my enemies is probably the most humbly satisfying...even having not experianced the fullness of that yet....
HB
Miki, thank you for your courage to ask me a question "am I so shallow...". I wonder myself but I think my spiritual deafness and blindness propels me into greater depths than in shallow waters.
I admit my faults and paste them hear so openly, like sending up a rescue beacon for the Lord to answer, like the blind old men in scripture who had shouted "Son of David, have mercy on us!" when Christ walked by.
Your posted response in the "Toronto" thread was exactly my point here, and I don't know if you seen the connection. Please if I may be allowed to copy and paste it here.
"How aweful it is to find out you are wrong." I will re state that statement to apply to me "How awful it is to find out that I am wrong."
...That I am wrong
...that I am wrong?
about what?
About everything!
About what pleases God, about seeking his approval, about sin, about love, about salvation, about faith, about heavenly rewards!
It sounds basic, and seems deceptively easy to understand that any believer should get it, right? Well, right?
I speak and believe the same things I have read in the Bible, like many other Christians, but do I truely understand them? Like a child who learns to mimick a tune in the most excellent way but haven't the talent to understand the composition, and without realizing it. But finally understanding the depth of my blindness and deafness when I realize I cannot so much as bend a hair on my head without touching it. Oh God can do it, sure. But later the hair still stands. "Oh, well maybe God doesn't want to do it, okay" or "I just don't have enough faith, okay"
What if I am wrong? What if you are wrong? What if everyone here is wrong? What does that then means?
"Oh, I can't be wrong, because I believe in Christ!" Time out!
"I can't be wrong"? When did I become the center of the universe and Christ second in control?
Let me rephrase that again.
I can be wrong, but I still believe in Christ!
...to me that is more honest, that is more authentic, that is faith.
...
I admit my faults and paste them hear so openly, like sending up a rescue beacon for the Lord to answer, like the blind old men in scripture who had shouted "Son of David, have mercy on us!" when Christ walked by.
Your posted response in the "Toronto" thread was exactly my point here, and I don't know if you seen the connection. Please if I may be allowed to copy and paste it here.
QUOTE
Likewise C...Thanks for posting it. And oh my...how aweful it is to find out you are wrong.
Once stung twice shy.. It is a GOOD thing! ... to be twice shy.
Because if we allow ourselves to just roll along we are in for trouble.
It creeps in slow like a fog after a long cold spell. Pray..Study...obey..
The wind of the Spirit will blow that fog out.
Thank God this man has found mercy and thank God he's been brave enough to admit it.
I pray God would bless and receive him for it.
God has to have allowed this to happen as an example of what can happen to us...eating grass and the like. Let's test everything. We're responsible. Let's to do it.
Once stung twice shy.. It is a GOOD thing! ... to be twice shy.
Because if we allow ourselves to just roll along we are in for trouble.
It creeps in slow like a fog after a long cold spell. Pray..Study...obey..
The wind of the Spirit will blow that fog out.
Thank God this man has found mercy and thank God he's been brave enough to admit it.
I pray God would bless and receive him for it.
God has to have allowed this to happen as an example of what can happen to us...eating grass and the like. Let's test everything. We're responsible. Let's to do it.
"How aweful it is to find out you are wrong." I will re state that statement to apply to me "How awful it is to find out that I am wrong."
...That I am wrong
...that I am wrong?
about what?
About everything!
About what pleases God, about seeking his approval, about sin, about love, about salvation, about faith, about heavenly rewards!
It sounds basic, and seems deceptively easy to understand that any believer should get it, right? Well, right?
I speak and believe the same things I have read in the Bible, like many other Christians, but do I truely understand them? Like a child who learns to mimick a tune in the most excellent way but haven't the talent to understand the composition, and without realizing it. But finally understanding the depth of my blindness and deafness when I realize I cannot so much as bend a hair on my head without touching it. Oh God can do it, sure. But later the hair still stands. "Oh, well maybe God doesn't want to do it, okay" or "I just don't have enough faith, okay"
What if I am wrong? What if you are wrong? What if everyone here is wrong? What does that then means?
"Oh, I can't be wrong, because I believe in Christ!" Time out!
"I can't be wrong"? When did I become the center of the universe and Christ second in control?
Let me rephrase that again.
I can be wrong, but I still believe in Christ!
...to me that is more honest, that is more authentic, that is faith.
...
I know for one that HB is about the least shallow person you can ever meet...But with that said:
HB...I read your last response to Miki as I have not really read to much before this in this particular thread...Just bits and pieces of it...
The very first thing that hit me is your living in a fear of what if's.........Is is possible that you can live in peace knowing that He alone is God? We are instructed to live in rest knowing that just his grace is sufficient for us....
HB....You have to lay this thinking down and cast it out of your imagination....I am going to speak honestly here but phrase it in a form of a question as you can only know the answer...I can suspect the answer by your response....
HB would the lack of knowledge of the Word of God be the direction of this kind of thinking? The thinking of what if I am wrong....What if I am right....This sea saw kind of thinking....One minute I am up and the next my butt is hitting the ground......
Sooner or later we all have to choose what side of that sea saw we are going to manage....I pray it is the one where the Word is sustaining you and keeping you lifted up and encouraged....
Its one thing to admit our faults like the Toronto man, but this man had the security and knowledge of the Word on his side...It is that Word revealed to him in truth that allowed him to confess in this manner....I completely believe that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to him and he began to realize the error of his doings....His consience may be burdened abit, but his soul is free from that bondage...
I totally believe that we know when we are just rolling along with the crowd and if we do it long enough it becomes second nature to the flesh....BUT I do believe that the person always has that tug by the Spirit to repent...It becomes a matter of reputation at that point....Am I too proud to admit it????
What would I say to you HB....Read all the scriptures that pertain to what pleases God....Instead of just guessing whether or not your pleasing God or not....End this stuggle and find the truth....
Ya know I love ya man!!!! hugs.....
HB...I read your last response to Miki as I have not really read to much before this in this particular thread...Just bits and pieces of it...
The very first thing that hit me is your living in a fear of what if's.........Is is possible that you can live in peace knowing that He alone is God? We are instructed to live in rest knowing that just his grace is sufficient for us....
HB....You have to lay this thinking down and cast it out of your imagination....I am going to speak honestly here but phrase it in a form of a question as you can only know the answer...I can suspect the answer by your response....
HB would the lack of knowledge of the Word of God be the direction of this kind of thinking? The thinking of what if I am wrong....What if I am right....This sea saw kind of thinking....One minute I am up and the next my butt is hitting the ground......
Sooner or later we all have to choose what side of that sea saw we are going to manage....I pray it is the one where the Word is sustaining you and keeping you lifted up and encouraged....
Its one thing to admit our faults like the Toronto man, but this man had the security and knowledge of the Word on his side...It is that Word revealed to him in truth that allowed him to confess in this manner....I completely believe that the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to him and he began to realize the error of his doings....His consience may be burdened abit, but his soul is free from that bondage...
I totally believe that we know when we are just rolling along with the crowd and if we do it long enough it becomes second nature to the flesh....BUT I do believe that the person always has that tug by the Spirit to repent...It becomes a matter of reputation at that point....Am I too proud to admit it????
What would I say to you HB....Read all the scriptures that pertain to what pleases God....Instead of just guessing whether or not your pleasing God or not....End this stuggle and find the truth....
Ya know I love ya man!!!! hugs.....
QUOTE(Miki @ Feb 7 2007, 11:06 PM) [snapback]101182[/snapback]
I have faith that his blood is the covering of my flawed nature.
When God looks at me he sees the blood. Not what's under it.
You are striving for perfection.. I'm not so optimistic. I just trust the sacrifice made for an imperfect soul. It's discouraging sometimes. But encouraging too. Because Jesus was perfect for me and died in my place...for my imperfections.
Miks if you read my post you would see that I am not striving.Faith does not strive.
I am only quoting scripture, because that is how I live my life with and in God...through the Word and not by sight.
So I have to look at what God says about this issue and not what people have taught me or what I "think" is correct.
I know that you and I cannot please God without faith.
Well here you are actually saying the truth . This is what it is about.
QUOTE
Because Jesus was perfect for me and died in my place...for my imperfections.
Right! So Jesus was perfect and died for your imperfections.
What type of job did He do, when He did that. Half a job? or did He do a perfect job?
If a perfect job, then you must be perfect..............BY FAITH !
not by striving.Just like Mary said: Let it be according to Thy Word, ....we should say the same and wait.
So you and I have to wait in faith for that perfection to manifest in us.
So read the scriptures I quote and I will edit out my own words. Just read and believe the Scripture...
QUOTE
Phill 3 Paul writes 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Phi 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Colossians 1:28
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ.
Hebrews 10:14
because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.
So its not my striving or even I that say so, but our Father in heaven Who teaches us through His Word.
We cannot enter this through human striving, only through faith....that He has done it at the cross...even if i do not see it yet.
love C
Hey HB for what its worth let me tell you that whatever you feel you are going through is natural. for what it's worth i think I am pretty intelligent. I was never into the bible. I hate it when people put on fake smiles and tells me God loves me. I still think people are crazy when they say "God told me in a beautiful voice that He loves me...."
it was a total turn off.
Then one day my sister kept inviting me to her church telling me "check it out because i think this is something you need."
I went but to find a small church with many intellectual minds. Theologians speaking articulate. No one gets babied.
The topics were so over my head that it forced me to read if I wanted to keep up. I was the most doubtful person one can meet but I've noticed when you doubt that's when there are things you are not understanding. So you have to hones and ask yourself if there is something you are not getting or something you are or are not reading. Because it all unfolds....it really does.
will you be perfect? no.
however, we are striving to be in a state where we do not practice sin (1 John 3:9).
but don't focus to much on sin and perfection because that has already covered for you in the past, present and future.
now you just gotta know what's the next thing to do.
it was a total turn off.
Then one day my sister kept inviting me to her church telling me "check it out because i think this is something you need."
I went but to find a small church with many intellectual minds. Theologians speaking articulate. No one gets babied.
The topics were so over my head that it forced me to read if I wanted to keep up. I was the most doubtful person one can meet but I've noticed when you doubt that's when there are things you are not understanding. So you have to hones and ask yourself if there is something you are not getting or something you are or are not reading. Because it all unfolds....it really does.
will you be perfect? no.
however, we are striving to be in a state where we do not practice sin (1 John 3:9).
but don't focus to much on sin and perfection because that has already covered for you in the past, present and future.
now you just gotta know what's the next thing to do.
c-los you use this scripture:
That is speaking of our spirit-man that has been born of God. Your spirit is already perfect.Your spirit cannot sin.
Our salvation is first spirit, then soul (mind...be ye changed by the renewing of your mind) and lastly God will save our bodies.
Paul speaks of perfection through faith: not using our human effort to try and please God.
Without faith.....we cannot please God.
QUOTE
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
That is speaking of our spirit-man that has been born of God. Your spirit is already perfect.Your spirit cannot sin.
Our salvation is first spirit, then soul (mind...be ye changed by the renewing of your mind) and lastly God will save our bodies.
Paul speaks of perfection through faith: not using our human effort to try and please God.
Without faith.....we cannot please God.
C-los, I liked your response. It's honest
Pamela, bless you dear. Yes, I admit that I do not read the word as much as I should but I do seek the Word. I wonder when Christ walked the earth as a man he offered the Word through his ministry and the Word was received at Pentacost, but the word was not written in scripture till some 70 years later and the word did not assemble into the KJV, the pretext to the modern Bible until 1666. Yes there was of course the Torah as the word, but what makes it living is the Word. My point is the word and the Word are two different things the word being written and can be misinterpreted, the Word received as the Holy Spirit.
Here, take Cornellius's point in 1 John 3:9
KJV says
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I can only believe that I was born of God, I do not know how to prove it to anyone even to God to thus say "I know I was born of God." But then, what if I sin? I am in direct contradiction to this verse and then my head, my heart, my faith gets all messed up. Barbs from the devil? The flesh? Or message from the Holy Spirit?
I don't know. To me this scripture taken in a literal context is black and white and it becomes rigid, unforgiving. "Oh, I am born of God." Gasp, my face is on the cover of a scandelous tabloid caught with a prostitute, SINNER! Conclusion, "Gee, I must not be born of God." Result bruised faith.
Cornellius interprets then that "Ah, it's my spirit-man that does not sin." Is he right? I don't know, but it's what he believes and that's okay with me. But, applying C's understanding to me, when I sin what part of me does? My flesh? Could be, as I know my flesh will stay in the grave. Does this give me license to indulge in my flesh if my spirit cannot sin? Don't know, so it starts to get complicated, and it goes back to truely understanding "what is sin" and "what does it mean being born of God"?
My point here is the word is then much deeper on the surface and it begs that it be understood by THE Word. Hence, my own personal conclusion, I can be wrong (about Jesus Christ) because I don't know, but I still believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. To me my statement is like the blind men calling out to Christ in Matthew 9:27-30
Pamela, bless you dear. Yes, I admit that I do not read the word as much as I should but I do seek the Word. I wonder when Christ walked the earth as a man he offered the Word through his ministry and the Word was received at Pentacost, but the word was not written in scripture till some 70 years later and the word did not assemble into the KJV, the pretext to the modern Bible until 1666. Yes there was of course the Torah as the word, but what makes it living is the Word. My point is the word and the Word are two different things the word being written and can be misinterpreted, the Word received as the Holy Spirit.
Here, take Cornellius's point in 1 John 3:9
KJV says
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I can only believe that I was born of God, I do not know how to prove it to anyone even to God to thus say "I know I was born of God." But then, what if I sin? I am in direct contradiction to this verse and then my head, my heart, my faith gets all messed up. Barbs from the devil? The flesh? Or message from the Holy Spirit?
I don't know. To me this scripture taken in a literal context is black and white and it becomes rigid, unforgiving. "Oh, I am born of God." Gasp, my face is on the cover of a scandelous tabloid caught with a prostitute, SINNER! Conclusion, "Gee, I must not be born of God." Result bruised faith.
Cornellius interprets then that "Ah, it's my spirit-man that does not sin." Is he right? I don't know, but it's what he believes and that's okay with me. But, applying C's understanding to me, when I sin what part of me does? My flesh? Could be, as I know my flesh will stay in the grave. Does this give me license to indulge in my flesh if my spirit cannot sin? Don't know, so it starts to get complicated, and it goes back to truely understanding "what is sin" and "what does it mean being born of God"?
My point here is the word is then much deeper on the surface and it begs that it be understood by THE Word. Hence, my own personal conclusion, I can be wrong (about Jesus Christ) because I don't know, but I still believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. To me my statement is like the blind men calling out to Christ in Matthew 9:27-30
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 8 2007, 02:04 PM) [snapback]101332[/snapback]
C-los, I liked your response. It's honest
Pamela, bless you dear. Yes, I admit that I do not read the word as much as I should but I do seek the Word. I wonder when Christ walked the earth as a man he offered the Word through his ministry and the Word was received at Pentacost, but the word was not written in scripture till some 70 years later and the word did not assemble into the KJV, the pretext to the modern Bible until 1666. Yes there was of course the Torah as the word, but what makes it living is the Word. My point is the word and the Word are two different things the word being written and can be misinterpreted, the Word received as the Holy Spirit.
Here, take Cornellius's point in 1 John 3:9
KJV says
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I can only believe that I was born of God, I do not know how to prove it to anyone even to God to thus say "I know I was born of God." But then, what if I sin? I am in direct contradiction to this verse and then my head, my heart, my faith gets all messed up. Barbs from the devil? The flesh? Or message from the Holy Spirit?
I don't know. To me this scripture taken in a literal context is black and white and it becomes rigid, unforgiving. "Oh, I am born of God." Gasp, my face is on the cover of a scandelous tabloid caught with a prostitute, SINNER! Conclusion, "Gee, I must not be born of God." Result bruised faith.
Cornellius interprets then that "Ah, it's my spirit-man that does not sin." Is he right? I don't know, but it's what he believes and that's okay with me. But, applying C's understanding to me, when I sin what part of me does? My flesh? Could be, as I know my flesh will stay in the grave. Does this give me license to indulge in my flesh if my spirit cannot sin? Don't know, so it starts to get complicated, and it goes back to truely understanding "what is sin" and "what does it mean being born of God"?
My point here is the word is then much deeper on the surface and it begs that it be understood by THE Word. Hence, my own personal conclusion, I can be wrong (about Jesus Christ) because I don't know, but I still believe in Jesus Christ as my savior. To me my statement is like the blind men calling out to Christ in Matthew 9:27-30
Okay HB, but one thing that sticks out is the fact that you don't read the word as much as you say you should...The Word, (Jesus) is the one your seeking more so...You can't know one without the other, can you?
If I sin, it is not the flesh that sinned? Yes, it is not my spirit...
Yes, the word is much deeper and the desire in each of us should be to seek it out earnestly.....
Most importantly, is not your faith increased by hearing the Word and then by doing the Word? Yes...
If your following the way of the Lord your desire should be to seek Him and His things and not those of this world that sins....I don't willfullly sin, but if I do, I repent and do go back to the sin...Before I was saved, I did as I pleased not what pleased the Lord.....Now that I am saved I do what the Lord requires me to do in the call that is placed in my life...
OK HB : I was thinking about you and your crises today, before reading this (about 5 min ago)
I believe the Lord is wanting to get you out of this place that you are in.
There are two problems you are having.Both os Word connected.
First foundation : Its one that all Christians must overcome. The validity of the Word.
Your point of the Word not being there for the new churches.
1 John 2 :24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
The early church had the Word as we have it. It was unfolding through the Apostles ministry.Paul traveled to them and taught them as Jesus showed it to him.
So first, Jesus told them to teach what He taught them (they then did that...remember He is the Word that became flesh...the WHOLE Word)
Now you have to see something concerning the second "thinking" that you have re the "word" . You talk of this as a separate "word" (small letters) as a separate continuous revelation that comes to people through the Spirit.
If you read in Rev in the verse I copy, you will see that there is no such thing. There cannot be a "word" that adds to the "Word".
I know of people that do not believe this and are walking in error at the moment. They have no foundation. The enemy has come and stolen the Word as their foundation.
So we cannot add "word" to "Word" and think that we are not adding or subtracting.
A prophetic word will always reflect scripture. You must find its roots in Scripture ...if not...leave it.
A prophetic word is not about "how well you will do at work" or "how you will enjoy your new job" (that is divination) but is an excortation based on the Word.
A "word" from the Spirit must always bring light to the "Word" or it is not of God.
You see: God has said it all in the Word.(Jesus) It is knowing Him through the Word that brings us into His real precense and not a false experience based an deception (through lack of knowledge) "My people perish because of a lack of knowledge"
LINK
Read this link and allow the Lord to restore your foundation brother. He loves you and wants you to stand on the Rock and not be moved.
I believe the Lord is wanting to get you out of this place that you are in.
There are two problems you are having.Both os Word connected.
First foundation : Its one that all Christians must overcome. The validity of the Word.
Your point of the Word not being there for the new churches.
QUOTE
1 John 2 :24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
The early church had the Word as we have it. It was unfolding through the Apostles ministry.Paul traveled to them and taught them as Jesus showed it to him.
QUOTE
(Jude 3), Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints.
ONCE for ALL delivered unto the saints.
God gave the Word ONCE for ALL unto the saints even then.This revelation about Christ in us and our own death to self by faith...was given to the church as a whole even then.
(Mt.28:20), [Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
ONCE for ALL delivered unto the saints.
God gave the Word ONCE for ALL unto the saints even then.This revelation about Christ in us and our own death to self by faith...was given to the church as a whole even then.
(Mt.28:20), [Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.
So first, Jesus told them to teach what He taught them (they then did that...remember He is the Word that became flesh...the WHOLE Word)
Now you have to see something concerning the second "thinking" that you have re the "word" . You talk of this as a separate "word" (small letters) as a separate continuous revelation that comes to people through the Spirit.
If you read in Rev in the verse I copy, you will see that there is no such thing. There cannot be a "word" that adds to the "Word".
I know of people that do not believe this and are walking in error at the moment. They have no foundation. The enemy has come and stolen the Word as their foundation.
QUOTE
(Rev.22:18,19), I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: (19) and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
So we cannot add "word" to "Word" and think that we are not adding or subtracting.
A prophetic word will always reflect scripture. You must find its roots in Scripture ...if not...leave it.
A prophetic word is not about "how well you will do at work" or "how you will enjoy your new job" (that is divination) but is an excortation based on the Word.
A "word" from the Spirit must always bring light to the "Word" or it is not of God.
You see: God has said it all in the Word.(Jesus) It is knowing Him through the Word that brings us into His real precense and not a false experience based an deception (through lack of knowledge) "My people perish because of a lack of knowledge"
LINK
Read this link and allow the Lord to restore your foundation brother. He loves you and wants you to stand on the Rock and not be moved.
HB, First you must know that I am not using my intellect to interpret Scripture. We must use Scripture to interpret Scripture.I use the teachings in Romans 7 and 8 to cast light upon this.The Lord has been speaking to me about this for 9 months now and I only started understanding the reality if it in January.
I admit that it is a difficult concept (sin..overcoming..the different parts..spirit ,soul and body and their relationship to salvation) But if we ask ,the Holy Spirit, our Teacher, is faithful and bring understanding.
..................................................
God never asks of you to prove it brother. You have to please God through faith.So yes: You can only believe it.
The Word clearly teaches us that our spirit is reborn and then of God. God does this "born form above" for us, when we believe (repent...change our mind and choose to believe God) God grants you this righteousness (through belief:faith) Its is for free: BUT ONLY COMES THROUGH FAITH
No you are not.
The Word teaches us in Rom 7 that when you have repented of a sin and you do not want to do it (God looks at the heart) you are now standing with God against that sin.Paul sees his spirit-man standing with God and understands that the blood is there for this sin.He says its no longer he , but the flesh that commits that sin.
People use that as an excuse to continue in sin, but God looks at your heart and knows the truth.
For a willing sin (unrepentant continuation, with no intention to change) ..those are not under the blood but we pay for those. Hebrews tells us there is no sacrifice left for such a sin , but only sure judgement.Jesus also talks about it when He tells us if we do not forgive (willing sin( then the Father hands us over to the tormentors (judgement) until we repent.
Then there are sins that we do not know we commit (for lack if light) and those are under the blood until God brings it to our intention.
Yes but the Lord is allowing this, to show you there is a crack in the foundation. He loves you too much to leave you like this.
I have spoken much elsewhere on overcoming through faith. I will look and give you the links.
Its all through faith and none by works.
hope it helps brother
love C
I admit that it is a difficult concept (sin..overcoming..the different parts..spirit ,soul and body and their relationship to salvation) But if we ask ,the Holy Spirit, our Teacher, is faithful and bring understanding.
..................................................
QUOTE
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I can only believe that I was born of God, I do not know how to prove it to anyone even to God to thus say "I know I was born of God." But then, what if I sin? I am in direct contradiction to this verse and then my head, my heart, my faith gets all messed up. Barbs from the devil? The flesh? Or message from the Holy Spirit?
I don't know. To me this scripture taken in a literal context is black and white and it becomes rigid, unforgiving. "Oh, I am born of God." Gasp, my face is on the cover of a scandelous tabloid caught with a prostitute, SINNER! Conclusion, "Gee, I must not be born of God." Result bruised faith.
I can only believe that I was born of God, I do not know how to prove it to anyone even to God to thus say "I know I was born of God." But then, what if I sin? I am in direct contradiction to this verse and then my head, my heart, my faith gets all messed up. Barbs from the devil? The flesh? Or message from the Holy Spirit?
I don't know. To me this scripture taken in a literal context is black and white and it becomes rigid, unforgiving. "Oh, I am born of God." Gasp, my face is on the cover of a scandelous tabloid caught with a prostitute, SINNER! Conclusion, "Gee, I must not be born of God." Result bruised faith.
God never asks of you to prove it brother. You have to please God through faith.So yes: You can only believe it.
The Word clearly teaches us that our spirit is reborn and then of God. God does this "born form above" for us, when we believe (repent...change our mind and choose to believe God) God grants you this righteousness (through belief:faith) Its is for free: BUT ONLY COMES THROUGH FAITH
QUOTE
But then, what if I sin? I am in direct contradiction to this verse
No you are not.
The Word teaches us in Rom 7 that when you have repented of a sin and you do not want to do it (God looks at the heart) you are now standing with God against that sin.Paul sees his spirit-man standing with God and understands that the blood is there for this sin.He says its no longer he , but the flesh that commits that sin.
People use that as an excuse to continue in sin, but God looks at your heart and knows the truth.
For a willing sin (unrepentant continuation, with no intention to change) ..those are not under the blood but we pay for those. Hebrews tells us there is no sacrifice left for such a sin , but only sure judgement.Jesus also talks about it when He tells us if we do not forgive (willing sin( then the Father hands us over to the tormentors (judgement) until we repent.
Then there are sins that we do not know we commit (for lack if light) and those are under the blood until God brings it to our intention.
QUOTE
Barbs from the devil?
Yes
but the Lord is allowing this, to show you there is a crack in the foundation. He loves you too much to leave you like this.I have spoken much elsewhere on overcoming through faith. I will look and give you the links.
Its all through faith and none by works.
hope it helps brother
love C
QUOTE
1 John 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
That is speaking of our spirit-man that has been born of God. Your spirit is already perfect.Your spirit cannot sin.
Our salvation is first spirit, then soul (mind...be ye changed by the renewing of your mind) and lastly God will save our bodies.
Paul speaks of perfection through faith: not using our human effort to try and please God.
Without faith.....we cannot please God.
That is speaking of our spirit-man that has been born of God. Your spirit is already perfect.Your spirit cannot sin.
Our salvation is first spirit, then soul (mind...be ye changed by the renewing of your mind) and lastly God will save our bodies.
Paul speaks of perfection through faith: not using our human effort to try and please God.
Without faith.....we cannot please God.
C...I've never thought of it like that before..The Spirit doesn't sin..
Jesus knew the Spirit was willing but the flesh was weak. It's hopeful.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
HB...Doubt is a terrible thing. The opposite of faith.
I have a word for you that l believe is from the Lord.
PUT ON THE GARMENT OF PRAISE!
Are those just words? Research everything about this. I did once. It's quite a study.
Cornellius, thank you for your posted response. Yes I read your thread and it was helpful, but God beat ya to it by showing me something wonderful. I agree with everything you said based on what I was able to interpret in my understanding.
As for the word and the Word, I'll try to explain how I understand it. The words printed in the Bible are just words and the bible just a book. If the bible was thrown in a fire the pages would burn up like paper, nothing holy or sacred to keep the pages from burning up. But, the word is alive when the Word that is the Holy Spirit makes them manifest in a person. But does the Word need the word to make a temple out of someones body? No it doesn't. It helps because the word that is written in the bible are true and reading the bible guides the heart and the mind to the Lord. But if the mind and the heart or spirit or soul or whatever one wishes to call it (passion or love) is not into the Word, the Holy Spirit, then the bible is just a book with words, and any person who can read can read a book.
I'll tell you a story. Once there was a Rabbi who loved the Torah and studied it in every detail in every way. He realized that the Torah was life and treasured this revelation. He would transcribe each letter in exact detail not to make a single mistake on a clean and unused piece of lamb skin leather for a new Torah. A single misplaced letter was to invite the unraveling of creation itself and so the whole scroll would have to be done away with and started over again. This Rabbi absolutely love the Word of God.
One day, his synagogue was stormed by soldiers and he was seized upon. The scroll of the Torah laid open on the podium was also seized upon, the solders with no regard to the sacredness of the scroll touched it their bare hands and the Rabbi cried out.
The soldiers piled up a bunch of wood and tied him to a stake in the center. They proceded to set wood alight and the rabbi's robes began to catch fire. As he was dying the soldiers threw the Torah in the fire and the scroll started to burn. But to the soldiers suprize the rabbi didn't shout in pain or scream for mercy or was anguished by the fire. His expression changed to glee and he was citing a Jewish prayer, shouting aloud in Hebrew what he saw, though the soldiers could not see.
The Rabbi saw the letters of the Torah, one by one, leap out of the flames like glowing glyphs and ascend to heaven.
As for the word and the Word, I'll try to explain how I understand it. The words printed in the Bible are just words and the bible just a book. If the bible was thrown in a fire the pages would burn up like paper, nothing holy or sacred to keep the pages from burning up. But, the word is alive when the Word that is the Holy Spirit makes them manifest in a person. But does the Word need the word to make a temple out of someones body? No it doesn't. It helps because the word that is written in the bible are true and reading the bible guides the heart and the mind to the Lord. But if the mind and the heart or spirit or soul or whatever one wishes to call it (passion or love) is not into the Word, the Holy Spirit, then the bible is just a book with words, and any person who can read can read a book.
I'll tell you a story. Once there was a Rabbi who loved the Torah and studied it in every detail in every way. He realized that the Torah was life and treasured this revelation. He would transcribe each letter in exact detail not to make a single mistake on a clean and unused piece of lamb skin leather for a new Torah. A single misplaced letter was to invite the unraveling of creation itself and so the whole scroll would have to be done away with and started over again. This Rabbi absolutely love the Word of God.
One day, his synagogue was stormed by soldiers and he was seized upon. The scroll of the Torah laid open on the podium was also seized upon, the solders with no regard to the sacredness of the scroll touched it their bare hands and the Rabbi cried out.
The soldiers piled up a bunch of wood and tied him to a stake in the center. They proceded to set wood alight and the rabbi's robes began to catch fire. As he was dying the soldiers threw the Torah in the fire and the scroll started to burn. But to the soldiers suprize the rabbi didn't shout in pain or scream for mercy or was anguished by the fire. His expression changed to glee and he was citing a Jewish prayer, shouting aloud in Hebrew what he saw, though the soldiers could not see.
The Rabbi saw the letters of the Torah, one by one, leap out of the flames like glowing glyphs and ascend to heaven.
The garment used in the sense l mentioned above is figurative.
Also... Psalm 102 is a good place to start...
I like Spurgeon's exhaustive explantion:
http://www.godrules.net/library/spurgeon/1...geon_d12.htmsal
Some of these bird watchers must read the Psalms...
Blue Rock Thrush
Again...
The cure then follows in the next Psalm..
http://www.godrules.net/library/spurgeon/170spurgeon_d13.htm
Praise God from whom all blessings flow....Praise him all creatures here below.
Also... Psalm 102 is a good place to start...
I like Spurgeon's exhaustive explantion:
http://www.godrules.net/library/spurgeon/1...geon_d12.htmsal
Some of these bird watchers must read the Psalms...
Blue Rock Thrush
Again...
The cure then follows in the next Psalm..
http://www.godrules.net/library/spurgeon/170spurgeon_d13.htm
Praise God from whom all blessings flow....Praise him all creatures here below.
Miki.......... My strenghth is made perfect in your weakness. WHEN ABRAM WAS NINETY YEARS OLD AND NINE THE LORD APPEARD TO ABRAM AND SAID UNTO HIM I AM GOD ALMIGHTY WALK BEFORE ME AND THOU PERFECT. I waited until my servant was quite incapable. Then and only then, I came to him with this new unveiling of Myself as God Almighty. There was no sign of a repentant Abram; rather, Ishmael was becoming more prescious to him. Did he realize his error? Had he not sought after Me? Well, if he had not, from a human standpoint there was not much hope for him. The hope here is not whether he wanted Me, but on whether I wanted him. And I certainly did. I was still at work in my servant. I had not let Him go. Learn that I am all - powerful and WALK in the light of that knowledge. For "be perfect" means, among other thing, "be perfect in weakness,"
Letting me do it all. Genesis l7:l
QUOTE
Miki I know you are quoting the WORD and I am not saying that God doesn't give us the way to overcome fear(perfect love casts out fear through the Spirit of Christ)...but to say that we will not have fear before the overcoming is self-denial and also a lofty thought...
I went back over my post and couldn't find what you were talking about? Would you mind quoting me? Perhaps it is from another post? Thanks Linda
My computer is acting up...keeps blacking out...
I just wrote a replay I'll try again.
It's when we declare God's WORD..
Even though i walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil..
I guess I've wondered about this verse. For even Christ our Lord sweat blood in the Garden.
He had to drink the cup...
He had to let go and let God. give up fear and embrace our Father's love.
For God cannot be evil...and as Lois said God works best in our weaknesses.
God Bless you,,,much love to you all
I just wrote a replay I'll try again.
It's when we declare God's WORD..
Even though i walk through the valley of death I will fear no evil..
I guess I've wondered about this verse. For even Christ our Lord sweat blood in the Garden.
He had to drink the cup...
He had to let go and let God. give up fear and embrace our Father's love.
For God cannot be evil...and as Lois said God works best in our weaknesses.
God Bless you,,,much love to you all
I guess l'm still not sure why you would consider me lofty for believing what the 23rd Psalm said? Oh well. Love you!
Having alot of trouble posting...sorry for the delay.
Miki NO, I don't mean that YOU are LOFTY...and what I am saying is how one perceives the word comeing from any one individual...the way we all word it...may be perceived differently...for I know we all have fear...but when we declare in God's word...it is in FAITH...and HE WILL DELIVER but doesnt mean that we won't have fear in our most trying times...but laying it all down to Jesus is where our Peace comes from. Do you understand what I'm sayin
?ONLY GOD knows our heart...Miki all I'm saying is the verse itself...is in FAITH...and that fear does come on us all,,,and is surrendered in any given situation if we lay it down to Jesus... And it is the Love of God that reveals his love and this overcomes the fear.
And it goes the same with Praise...more than anything I love to Praise God...and the devil hates that more than anything. So we will be perceived as being lofty and such by evil.
A perfect example is when the angel came to Mary and told her she was to give birth to the Son of God...
And she had fear...but the SPIRIT OF THE LORD OVERSHADOWED her...WOW MIKI look at that the same word Shadow...
Anytime the Heavenly Host showed up...they said FEAR NOT...so that just tells me we all have fear that's all.
So the WORD is in so many layers...
Even though Mary walked in the shadow of Death she would fear no evil. Imagine being pregnant with the Son of God...Imagine if she would have held on to fear. She said she would do God's will.
May you have a blessed day In Christ Jesus our Lord...you are a blessing Miki...
I beleive we are all here for a purpose to help one another grow in Faith and beleive in God's WORD...he is molding us all...I am grateful for you all. GOD LOVES YOU, YES LORD YES
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 10 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]101633[/snapback]
Cornellius, thank you for your posted response. Yes I read your thread and it was helpful, but God beat ya to it by showing me something wonderful. I agree with everything you said based on what I was able to interpret in my understanding.
As for the word and the Word, I'll try to explain how I understand it. The words printed in the Bible are just words and the bible just a book. If the bible was thrown in a fire the pages would burn up like paper, nothing holy or sacred to keep the pages from burning up. But, the word is alive when the Word that is the Holy Spirit makes them manifest in a person. But does the Word need the word to make a temple out of someones body? No it doesn't. It helps because the word that is written in the bible are true and reading the bible guides the heart and the mind to the Lord. But if the mind and the heart or spirit or soul or whatever one wishes to call it (passion or love) is not into the Word, the Holy Spirit, then the bible is just a book with words, and any person who can read can read a book.
Amen and God is so good and faithful. He first told you this and then confirmed it. Praise God !love you brother!
I am no prophet, but I have a strong sense in me that you are going to experience God differently. He has been causing this in you for His purpose and His plan is great and wonderful. You will tell me if I am right
C
Linda it sounds like you have a good grasp on it. I know a lot of times as l'm writing, l start to see and realize things as l go.
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Feb 11 2007, 11:41 AM) [snapback]101722[/snapback]
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 10 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]101633[/snapback]
Cornellius, thank you for your posted response. Yes I read your thread and it was helpful, but God beat ya to it by showing me something wonderful. I agree with everything you said based on what I was able to interpret in my understanding.
As for the word and the Word, I'll try to explain how I understand it. The words printed in the Bible are just words and the bible just a book. If the bible was thrown in a fire the pages would burn up like paper, nothing holy or sacred to keep the pages from burning up. But, the word is alive when the Word that is the Holy Spirit makes them manifest in a person. But does the Word need the word to make a temple out of someones body? No it doesn't. It helps because the word that is written in the bible are true and reading the bible guides the heart and the mind to the Lord. But if the mind and the heart or spirit or soul or whatever one wishes to call it (passion or love) is not into the Word, the Holy Spirit, then the bible is just a book with words, and any person who can read can read a book.
Amen and God is so good and faithful. He first told you this and then confirmed it. Praise God !love you brother!
I am no prophet, but I have a strong sense in me that you are going to experience God differently. He has been causing this in you for His purpose and His plan is great and wonderful. You will tell me if I am right
C
Ready to FLY........................
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Feb 11 2007, 12:41 PM) [snapback]101722[/snapback]
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 10 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]101633[/snapback]
Cornellius, thank you for your posted response. Yes I read your thread and it was helpful, but God beat ya to it by showing me something wonderful. I agree with everything you said based on what I was able to interpret in my understanding.
As for the word and the Word, I'll try to explain how I understand it. The words printed in the Bible are just words and the bible just a book. If the bible was thrown in a fire the pages would burn up like paper, nothing holy or sacred to keep the pages from burning up. But, the word is alive when the Word that is the Holy Spirit makes them manifest in a person. But does the Word need the word to make a temple out of someones body? No it doesn't. It helps because the word that is written in the bible are true and reading the bible guides the heart and the mind to the Lord. But if the mind and the heart or spirit or soul or whatever one wishes to call it (passion or love) is not into the Word, the Holy Spirit, then the bible is just a book with words, and any person who can read can read a book.
Amen and God is so good and faithful. He first told you this and then confirmed it. Praise God !love you brother!
I am no prophet, but I have a strong sense in me that you are going to experience God differently. He has been causing this in you for His purpose and His plan is great and wonderful. You will tell me if I am right
C
Then I will one day share with you a very recent revelation I pray comes from the Lord's Holy Spirit. For now I am keeping quite because I am testing it...it is with Mark 11:24
but it's origins start with the very first chapter of Genesis with the tree of knowledge. I am considering a thread to later discuss my revelation made to me. But just to get the thinking juices going I put forth this question, what is the knowledge to know what its good and evil, what is it really to know this knowledge that we all have believer and unbeliever alike? How is this knowledge applied in anyones life if they know it? What does it mean if one doesn't understand this? The answer is bigger than I could ever imagine and to me it shows God's magnificent glory in His WORD!
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 12 2007, 11:48 AM) [snapback]101849[/snapback]
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Feb 11 2007, 12:41 PM) [snapback]101722[/snapback]
QUOTE(Humble Bob @ Feb 10 2007, 11:32 PM) [snapback]101633[/snapback]
Cornellius, thank you for your posted response. Yes I read your thread and it was helpful, but God beat ya to it by showing me something wonderful. I agree with everything you said based on what I was able to interpret in my understanding.
As for the word and the Word, I'll try to explain how I understand it. The words printed in the Bible are just words and the bible just a book. If the bible was thrown in a fire the pages would burn up like paper, nothing holy or sacred to keep the pages from burning up. But, the word is alive when the Word that is the Holy Spirit makes them manifest in a person. But does the Word need the word to make a temple out of someones body? No it doesn't. It helps because the word that is written in the bible are true and reading the bible guides the heart and the mind to the Lord. But if the mind and the heart or spirit or soul or whatever one wishes to call it (passion or love) is not into the Word, the Holy Spirit, then the bible is just a book with words, and any person who can read can read a book.
Amen and God is so good and faithful. He first told you this and then confirmed it. Praise God !love you brother!
I am no prophet, but I have a strong sense in me that you are going to experience God differently. He has been causing this in you for His purpose and His plan is great and wonderful. You will tell me if I am right
C
Then I will one day share with you a very recent revelation I pray comes from the Lord's Holy Spirit. For now I am keeping quite because I am testing it...it is with Mark 11:24
but it's origins start with the very first chapter of Genesis with the tree of knowledge. I am considering a thread to later discuss my revelation made to me. But just to get the thinking juices going I put forth this question, what is the knowledge to know what its good and evil, what is it really to know this knowledge that we all have believer and unbeliever alike? How is this knowledge applied in anyones life if they know it? What does it mean if one doesn't understand this? The answer is bigger than I could ever imagine and to me it shows God's magnificent glory in His WORD!Maybe they're not related, but your posts made me think about the devotionals that I have been reading the past few days, this is today's:
February 12th: http://www.myutmost.org/02/0212.html
MUST I LISTEN?
"And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die." Exodus 20:19
We do not consciously disobey God, we simply do not heed Him. God has given us His commands; there they are, but we do not pay any attention to them, not because of wilful disobedience but because we do not love and respect Him. "If ye love Me, ye will keep My commandments." When once we realize that we have been "disrespecting" God all the time, we are covered with shame and humiliation because we have not heeded Him.
"Speak thou with us . . . but let not God speak with us." We show how little we love God by preferring to listen to His servants only. We like to listen to personal testimonies, but we do not desire that God Himself should speak to us. Why are we so terrified lest God should speak to us? Because we know that if God does speak, either the thing must be done or we must tell God we will not obey Him. If it is only the servant's voice we hear, we feel it is not imperative, we can say, "Well, that is simply your own idea, though I don't deny it is probably God's truth."
Am I putting God in the humiliating position of having treated me as a child of His whilst all the time I have been ignoring Him? When I do hear Him, the humiliation I have put on Him comes back on me - "Lord, why was I so dull and so obstinate?" This is always the result when once we do hear God. The real delight of hearing Him is tempered with shame in having been so long in hearing Him.
Dear Agape, I tell you the truth. Everything you experience and feel was brought upon by you
I once was told by the Lord, "If I waited for any man to be perfect before I used him, none would be used, for all have sinned and fall short of My glory."
I have this thing even yet that speaks to my need to address the masses from a point of perfection and yet see that sullied approach through sulied flesh. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophets. Isaiah saw God high and lifted up and his comment was Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
My natural eyes have not seen, but I am one of those blessed for the word of God says elsewhere Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. Did you know that with God, believing is seeing?
But there is a call to go on to perfection, scripturally clear and evident so it is a thing to strive towards...
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. (re: attestation from post number one...)
>>
Lately I have been experiencing "fervent" from the last sylable..."vent" (against self and against God) My jocularity is in apogee.
apogee: The highest or most distant point; climax. Not high but distant. I am self inferiorating. Burning from within by the fury of impoverished belief. Cognizant of resident inanities and inequities. A pluralismin or duality of mind and purpose. Self flagelatory and incessantly critical of my own invectives of dissidence. I am beside myself with anger at myself. In my flesh dwells no good thing.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
I have this thing even yet that speaks to my need to address the masses from a point of perfection and yet see that sullied approach through sulied flesh. The spirit of the prophet is subject to the prophets. Isaiah saw God high and lifted up and his comment was Isa 6:5 Then said I, Woe [is] me! for I am undone; because I [am] a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts.
My natural eyes have not seen, but I am one of those blessed for the word of God says elsewhere Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed. Did you know that with God, believing is seeing?
But there is a call to go on to perfection, scripturally clear and evident so it is a thing to strive towards...
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. Heb 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit. (re: attestation from post number one...)
>>
Lately I have been experiencing "fervent" from the last sylable..."vent" (against self and against God) My jocularity is in apogee.
apogee: The highest or most distant point; climax. Not high but distant. I am self inferiorating. Burning from within by the fury of impoverished belief. Cognizant of resident inanities and inequities. A pluralismin or duality of mind and purpose. Self flagelatory and incessantly critical of my own invectives of dissidence. I am beside myself with anger at myself. In my flesh dwells no good thing.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not. Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
And Jesus said, we know to pray, but what to pray we know not.
and he tells us how to pray and what to pray for..
we all know. OUR FATHER
Let us glorify our Father, let our needs fall at his feet he already has provided all our needs and the Holy Spirit will continue to Renew us in Faith in Christ and his sacrafice for all the WORLD. After all IS said and done...J(THE ALPHA and the OMEGA....JESUS REIGNS and the Earth is his footstool. He said IT IS FINISHED. He is the Author and Finisher of our Faith.
and what is to know the knowledge of good and evil.?..are we Glorifing God or our own blind ambitions.
Those whom wait upon the LORD will be comforted.
Oh LORD help our unbeleif, when troubles come and hope seems lost...we look UP TO YOU.Renew us daily in your WILL Father.
Even our dear LORD JESUS, went up to the mountain to pray...because he had a contrite spirit, he hungered and thirsted for the people to SEE the revelation and truth of the Glory of a Loving Father, whom loves his children, who takes them under his wings and renews their strength.
Nothing on this Earth can overcome the Mighty Power of our Maker, His Kingdom will come and will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
This is our Blessed Hope...look to him in all things and obey.Not an easy task to walk as Jesus walked, for many will come against us, and persecute us...keep walking...he is always within arms reach.
be still and know he IS GOD.
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