Check out my illustrated book about the walk of faith. this is the first reading along with the cover page

God has given you a talent, a gift, and direction...i am so glad for you
and all you will touch with your ministry...surely you will have peace
on the faces of the little ones, too...bless you.

signet

Baptism does save us as is clearly stated in
1 Peter 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

You even had this scripture in your tract and yet it directly contradicts your statement "why do we have to be baptised if it doesn't save us".

The book of James also clearly states that we are saved by faith and works
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In other words, without works faith cannot save. As you have rightly said. Baptism is a work which I would put in this category of required works for salvation. Sprinkling is quite acceptable for those too infirm to be completely immersed, or for large companies where it is impractical to baptise by immersion, or for locales where immersion is not an option because of scarcity of water. There is no legitimate reason not to be baptised except perhaps a lack of an anointed pastor. In a case such as this I daresay that God is merciful and will judge the heart in this circumstance.

Many people are confused and feel that Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained [2] that we should walk in them
in some way contradicts James 2:14.

It does not. No amount of good works will save us. Just so we could get baptised a thousand times and without faith it would be of no avail. It is the grace of God which saves us through faith which he gives us. It is that inspiration of life that causes us to perform good works such as getting baptised. If we receive the inspiration of life and then do not follow through with good works then we are stillborn children experiencing the first flush of life and then dieing in the womb.

Think of it like breathing. God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul. But then Adam had to breathe himself to continue living.
Breathe in (Faith) then Breathe out (Works) equals life
Breathe out (Works) without breathing in (Faith) equals death
Breathe in (Faith) without breathing out (Works) equals death.

So faith and works are required for salvation James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
If a man has faith and does not obey the command of the Lord and refuses to be baptised, then how can it be said that he had faith? What kind of faith refuses to obey the Lord.

Baptism ACTUALLY IS the regeneration of our human spirit which was once dead but is resurrected into newness of life. It doesnt symbolise something which has already happened. That is not what 1 Peter 3 says at all. It says baptism saves us. It does not say "giving your heart to the Lord" saves you.
Our regeneration and resurrection of the spirit does not occur when we accept Jesus, it occurs at baptism. Without the resurrection of Christ preceding, this could not happen. And without baptism this cannot happen. Baptism is not just some symbolic gesture as you are portraying it. Some of us mock the old people who made it a matter of high priority to have their babies baptised for the salvation of their souls, but we have gone to the other extreme admitting people into the congregation who have walked down the sawdust trail and prayed the sinners prayer and neglecting to baptise which is one of the commissions of the church.

Go into all the nations preaching the gospel baptising them in the Fathers name.

Praise the Lord Excubitor. I'm glad to see that you've read the Salvation illustrations the Lord inspired me to make, and I trust that you're saying what you are out of love. I love a good discussion on truth. It helps to drive me into my bible.
I hope you've seen that I do agree that ACTIONS MUST follow faith as I stated in the 2nd page "The life you now live will PROVE if you meant your prayer". and the second in page 7 that says "Sin no more" St. John 8:11. did you see these statements in the book? I'm sorry that you didn't get to see the rest of the book yet that goes into more detail on the works every believer should be engaged in, but I will be posting them soon...

I do need to make a change. It would be better for me to have used another scripture to present this point of initial salvation before baptism because it can sound confusing to the new believer.
when I said 'baptism doesn't save us' I'm more referring to the person that gets baptized but hasn't sincerely submitted their life (by faith) to our Lord Jesus Christ. But I could never say a person that believes and isn't baptized yet isn't saved...

There are 3 stages of salvation:
1. The initial acceptance of Jesus Christ into our lives- Rom 10:9,10 Confess and believe,
2. the life we live after accepting him- James 2:17 which includes baptism,
3. and the time we actually get to heaven- Matt 24:13

In the Breathing illustration it would be:
God breathed into Adam the breath of life and he became a living soul, which is stage one of salvation (you've accepted Christ/Life). But then Adam had to continue breathing himself to continue living, which would be stage 2 (walking in salvation).

I'm emphasizing the 1st stage in this part, though the 2n't stage is also mentioned.
the second stage is more emphasized in the further readings I'm going to post soon...

You are also right about Paul in Ephesians 2:8 and James 2:14-20. they aren't contradicting each other, they're just referring to the different stages of salvation in these particular scriptures.

Let's see what this means rightly divided- 2Tim 2:15
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Baptism IS an answer... It's an outward confession that your conscience is already clean... Sin is what gives us an unclean conscience towards God, Baptism is an ANSWER, not a cleanser…
An answer OF a good conscience:
It's the good conscience that responds to the command of baptism. A conscience that has already been cleansed by the Blood of Jesus as shown in Hebrews 9:14.
Therefore baptism is for someone whose conscience has ALREADY been cleansed by accepting Jesus Christ as their savior. It's like asking someone, "hey, do you have a clean conscience?" the only way to truly ANSWER yes is that you have been baptized.

Confirming scriptures show us how we’re cleansed of sin:
"-but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified IN THE NAME of the Lord Jesus, and BY THE SPIRIT of our God."-1Cor 6:11
"-Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins IN HIS OWN BLOOD," Rev 1:5
How can natural water cleans a believer from sin when it's the Blood of Jesus, the Name of Jesus and the Spirit of God that cleanses us from it? The scripture doesn't contradict itself but it has to be understood in its context.

I also hope you weren't offended in that I said giving your heart to the Lord is what saves us (said only to paraphrase the simplicity of stepping into salvation). To give our heart to the Lord means to commit our mind to him. Is it possible to commit your whole mind to the Lord without giving him your every action? Everything we do is a result of what is in our heart -Proverbs 4:23, so the person that truly gives their heart to the Lord is also committing all their actions to him too.

I didn't say that baptism was only symbolic... I also gave other reasons for it's importance, and ended by saying there are MORE reasons for it too.
But here is the scripture that shows that baptism also has symbolic implications:
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: THAT LIKE AS Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If you were upset for the way I presented baptism I have a little understanding why. I see that you've seen many of the churches today downplay baptism. But I’m not downplaying it, my intention is only to show new believers that the work of baptism doesn't wash away their sins, but a true believer has no reason not to be baptized if they really believe on Jesus Christ.

I hope you understood these things.


Now I'm not condemning what you believe and teach, because the word says;
Rom 14:
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
But I've shared with you the reasons why I teach what I teach.

Where does the teaching come from where you've said, 'Water Baptism is the regeneration of our human spirit'?

And thanks again Excubitor, I'm really enjoying this study
God bless

Thank you Signet, what you stated is what I desire. God bless you.

Everlasting

I love your work! Praise the Lord that you are using your gifts!

Thanks jhamner, all glory to our God

nice art Madefromclay.

water Baptism does not save.

MadefromClay,
Thanks for the time and effort that you have gone to respond to this post. I am sorry if I came across overly prickly in my previous post. I just feel that where we are releasing gospel information to the public we have to be precisely spot on with what we write. I admire your artwork, the purpose of your book and more particularly your concern to be correct and true in your material. I also want to commend you for the standard of your writing and the diligence of your studies.

I understand your emphasis on good works is portrayed in your book which is good to see, however I simply wanted to point out the contradiction in your baptism section where you said that baptism does not save us when 1 Peter 3 clearly states that it does save us.

I would not have you remove 1 Peter 3 from your illustration though. I would have you remove your incorrect comment that baptism does not save us.

You said

In response I say that if Baptism is only an outward confession and does not cleanse us then how can it be said in 1 Peter 3 that baptism saves us. It goes back to your 2 stages of salvation which I alluded to as the breathing in of faith and the breathing out of works. Both stages must be in existense for salvation.

When the passage uses the word "answer" here it is not in the sense of Person 1 asked a question and the Person 2 answering it. It is used in the sense of a pledge, being accountable and responsible as in if I say. This is a similar thought to justification where we say "I have to justify my actions to my boss" or I "must be justified to God". So in baptism we are pledging that we will keep our conscience clean before God. The architype is clear. The outward observance of washing of water does nothing except clean away the dirt. It is the inward washing of the conscience which occurs at baptism and the pledge we make of future pure living which saves us.

The type of Noah being saved by the water of the flood as explained in 1 Peter 3 also typifies the Christian being saved by the water of baptism. Now obviously Noah was extended Grace because he believed God. But if he had not got into the ark and been borne up out of the water then he would have died and would not have been saved. So too we are extended Grace when we believe but unless we enter the waters of baptism in rebirth and are borne up out of the water pledging our clean conscience to God we cannot be saved.

You said

Precisely this is what I am saying. Water baptism is the death of the old man with all of his old ways. The new man which is borne out of the water is committed in ALL of his ways to the Lord. Clearly this is not understood today with "come as you are" Christians "giving their heart to the Lord" and then continuing with all their old ways. This is clearly the sham of a salvation which James was exposing. Proper teaching of death to the self, giving ourselves as living sacrifices, dedication to good works, counting the cost, is often foregone due to the fact that baptism is also often foregone. Or else baptism is done as a token gesture or an afterthought without the proper depth of meaning being explained to the new believer. Baptism should not be done flippantly or as an afterthought or when we get around to it. Some pastors believe that when a person breaks down in tearful emotion at the revival meeting that they are saved. "We had 300 people saved at our last revival meeting" they say with pride and boasting. Sure they gave their heart to the Lord. Sure they believed. For a couple of hours maybe, but then they went back to their old ways and nothing took root. Such people are not saved. Equally some people are baptised and there is no expression of repentance or conversion, they are just going through the motions for social reasons or to get married to a Christian. Clearly this baptism is a sham also, serving only to wash the body but without any power to save.

How can you ask when you have just typed out Romans 6?

Clearly this is describing the death of the old carnal man and the resurrection to new life of the regenerate new man so that we may walk in newness of life. Baptism is likened to the resurrection of Christ raising up from death into glory. At baptism the carnal mind of the old man dies and the reborn spirit of the new man rises (is resurrected) to newness of life. But the reborn spirit still dwells in the body of death which is the flesh. At the resurrection our old bodies will die and our new bodies will be resurrected from the dust of the old.
Can I refer you also to Col 2


It says we are risen in baptism. What does Resurrection mean? A rising again.http://65.66.134.201/cgi-bin/webster/webster.exe?search_for_texts_web1828=resurrection
This is what is meant by the terms regeneration and conversion.Conversion of a dead man to a living man. Regeneration of a dead soul to a living spirit.
Christ at the resurrection became a quickening spirit. So when are we quickened? Our souls are quickened at baptism when we rise (are resurrected from) the water but get this, our spirits rise but our bodies are still dead, groaning in mortality. Which is why we still groan for the redemption of our bodies. This is why we are dead to the sins of the old body the flesh but alive to the spirit. Our bodies are quickened and redeemed at the resurrection at the return of Christ. This is all explained in Romans 8.

So getting back to Col 2. When were we dead in our sins? Before we rose into newness of life. When did we rise into newness of life? At baptism. It follows therefore that the blotting out of the penalties of our sins occurs during that great event when we were buried with Christ. And when was that event when we were buried with Christ. At baptism. And when did we put off the old body of the flesh and become circumcised of Christ? At baptism.

excubitor,
if you want to start a new thread so we can discuss water baptism then by all means do it. this thread was originally made by Madefromclay and don't want to astray it.

C los...we aren't straying from the topic and l want to break in with my thoughts.

Ex-q said:



say he hath faith say say say....It didn't say he had it. It says he said or says he has it.

When a person is really saved the works are the out pouring of the faith not the duty. No one has to make a person that's been saved do works. Ex-q...We are saved by the blood alone. Nothing else. People who say they have faith and don't have fruit aren't saved. Anyone who's saved produces.

If you have to lecture someone to do works they aren't saved period. They need to have a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. Then the life of Christ will pour out of them... not the stench of an old musty bench.

I also want to add that like Shekel says. "He cleans the inside of the cup first." In my Hanukkah storm story l talked about a young man that was saved but not outwardly living that way. Don't be to quick to judge the Lords unfinished work. But on the same hand don't think slamming them will speed the work up. Just let God .

i hear ya.
excub is not reading the passage in James clearly. Because if I follow excub's interpretation then that contradicts Pauls teaching. Excub's interpretation (and all those that follow that interpretation) go into works. Not works in the sense to do works for others, but works for salvation.
Paul teaches Eph 2:8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. [10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

I sigh everytime I hear some one tell me how theyve been water baptized and are in shock when they hear i havent done it. they are, in a sense, boasting. So let them boast.

Excub has homework to do. clear up the "contradiction" he is posting from James and Paul.
Good luck! *thumbs up*

...i awoke one morning to a voice that sounded like thunder. the Voice said
only this, "He Lives"! I knew immediately who was pointing to who...it was the
Holy Spirit of God speaking to me...and i jumped out of bed, got dressed, got
the phone book and looked for the closest church i could find...

i was led to a neighborhood church, but it was three years later when I was officially
baptized...seems like something always changed the calendar
and i moved to another city...i so wanted the water baptizism...it was just
from the outflowing of loving the Lord that led me...it never was a doctrine for me...

finally, still waiting for the "official" church baptism in a new city...i found
down from my apartment a sanje, like a little creek running down the
hill. I looked over the back fence one early morning and saw a white cloth
down there...my heart starting racing...and i raced out the door and
climbed down the side of the hill...and stood there crying...and then i laid
down in the water and let it flow over me...i got up climbed back up...no
one saw me, i was alone...

later that year, i went to Israel...and i was baptized with witnesses in the
Jordan. God already knew my heart and I had already accepted Jesus as
the Lord and Savior of my life...my hearts cry had been for water baptism,
and He answered me privately and publicly..

blessings,
signet

Man, this is good. Is it being published yet?

Hang on I am saying exactly the same thing that you are. You say that he is only "saying" that he has faith and that if he had "true" faith then he would also have works to prove it. That without works the faith is a dead (not real) faith. That's right. Thats what James says. That's what I have been saying.

So therefore professions of faith are not enough and do not save us. Because these professions of faith are dead if they are not accompanied by works which evidence that the faith is a living faith. This is exactly the argument James makes. Where did I use expressions of duty or obligation, slamming them to do work, lecturing them, (rather than obedience or outpouring?). This is lingo that you prescribed to me in an attempt to dismantle my well-founded arguments.

And with regards to Eph 2:8. I went to great effort to explain it. Did I not say that a thousand good works and a thousand baptisms will be of no avail if they are not accompanied with faith and belief? You people are being overly harsh against me and arguing with semantics. Neither of you learned a single thing from the great wealth of study and experience which I shared with you. You are small and mean minded people of little grace. Surely I have cast my pearls before swine. The only reason I write here now is for the hundreds of anonymous guests who read these posts of which there may be one who benefits and appreciates the incredible richness of the doctrine of baptism which I have shared from the Bible. And also for MadefromClay who has a teachable spirit.

So please tell me. What kind of Christian does not:
1. Attend church
2. Pray for the saints
3. Participate in the sacraments of baptism and the Lords Supper
4. Fast
5. Study
6. Give alms
7. Do good works to all men but especially the household of faith
8. Obeys the commands of Christ.

If you believed in the sacrifice of Jesus and did none of these things. Are you saved? I say no. You will wither on the vine and be burned up in the fire along with the heathen.
OK so you do these things. Then how is it that these works ordained of the Lord have not saved you along with faith? Its simple logic. Why else would James say 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Besides which medranos is being a, talking about the lively faith with the outpouring of works and yet who hasn't even done the first most basic of works which is to be baptised. Then he accuses those who obeyed the command of the Lord of being proud. Obviously this is transference as he is himself boasts of his unbaptised state.

What Paul is talking about in Eph 2 is the notion of doing lots of works to try to get saved. If any Christian does not believe he is saved and feels that he needs to work in order to be saved, or earn it through hard works, then he is in error because then he will boast that his salvation was earned by works which is impossible. Christ said that if you work this way then at the end of the day you will still be unprofitable servants because none of our work can repay the debt which we have against us.

Paul says it is our faith which saves us. Then what James says is "Yes Paul that's right, but that without works our faith is dead and is not a true faith but only a hollow profession of faith. Therefore we know we are saved if we have faith and if we do Godly works such as I have listed above. Chief of which is baptism along with the Lords supper. How is this a contradiction? I see no contradiction, only the right dividing of the words of truth. So we are not servants obligated to work, we are friends and children who with a willing heart allow the Lord to work through us.

I know that I am saved because I have faith AND because I work but not me but he who dwells in me. If I did not work then how would I know whether my faith is true faith or simply a dead, hollow profession of faith? Calvinists who believe that they are saved because of their profession of faith are deluded. Thinking they are saved they see no need to change or do anything. They just waddle along in their old ways thinking that it is impossible to lose their salvation because they have been blessed with irresistable grace. I tell you that the fires of hell await these deluded folk unless they get off their couches and do some works worthy of their calling.

Col 1:10 That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;

Nobody explains the necessity of being fruitful in good works more than the Lord.
Matthew 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Matthew 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

Why do you think Christ cursed the fig tree which did not have any fruit? Its just a tree isn't it? Wasn't he a bit harsh. No he was sending us a message. Bear fruit or you will be cursed like this fig tree which withered at the power and the word of the Lord.

Matt 21:He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Take heed people of God, listen to the word of the Lord. Make sure that when the Lord comes he does not find you lacking good fruit when he expects to find it. Remember the fig tree. Remember the parable of the talents, remember the true vine of which we are the branches and God is the husbandmen. Oh how terrible (how severe Rom 11:21) when he comes to find no fruit; he will cut you off and throw you into the fire. John 15:1,2.

Well you have the spot light on people that you can judge never pray? How do you know who's praying and who isn't. You're in your high loft happy to expose the ugliness you've found in the refuge heap. I guess that's what bugs me about folks who seem to know the trip tick so well. Talk about not reading posts. And where in the world do you ever read that folks who bend towards Calvinism never do works. That's the most untrue thing l've heard you say. Let's put it this way. I've never met a Calvinist that doesn't. Are they out there? Probably. I just don't know any that base their theology on floating through life on a dream.

Ok...now the part you didn't want to hear. God cleans the inside of the cup first. When we look at people are we so sure we know by what they're doing or not doing whether they're saved? I don't think so because God has just taken me through several years of teaching about people who are trapped in the darkness...even though they're candle is burning. Who's fault is it? Maybe the Bible thumpers have scared them away. Maybe believers that are so busy with their Christian duties that they never find time to unbury the lost and hurting among them.. hummm? They see these people sitting in the pews and they never even attempt to know them. After all... they're busy with their ministries. And they don't want to touch any so dead and uncool sitting there like a stump. Well find out before you throw rocks and then maybe we'll hear you testifying about all the awesome news God in doing through you instead of how you're here to proclaim everybody else's demise. (Pam are you out there?) I think l'm at it again. There haven't been any personal attacks just firm exhortation

G-loft...I was one of those people. Trapped in the darkness of my own despair and unworthiness. Perishing for lack of knowledge. I didn't know the Lord would talk to me. I thought l'd let him down and now it was my job just to accept my punishment and live out the consequences of my sins in isolation and shame.

My gosh boy...Don't be so harsh about what you think you know by the outward appearance of things. Get to really know people in love. Not just to be nosy about what they're doing....but really know them. Help people. Help people by getting to know what's making them tick or not tick. Some people hide so much pain and hurt it paralyzes them.

Please G-loft...Magnify your own faith by coming along side one or two people you consider to be dead in faith. Enter into a personal relationship with them...Not just a token attempt like so many hypocrites do. But really come along side someone with the faith God has given you to do all things through Christ as he strengthens you.

Long suffering...I wish you could have know what an awesome mentor the Lord gave me. Faithful! Faithful! Those are the words to describe her. She never let me down. Was she ever wrong? sure. But she was faithful to minister to me and give me the strength l needed to come through the desert of despair until l could learn how to drink from the life giving water myself.

Some of you people are going to be judged for being to busy. Many of the ones you're so quick to judge as the dirty dozen were left to die because you were so busy. And so aloof you could never come down from you ministry duties to see what's right in front of your face. And don't think the trouble maker in Bible study is outside your reach or responsibility.

I came along side someone 10 years. Then the Lord took me out. I didn't take myself out. There was much fruit from my efforts but the freedom the person needed was only partially realized. God moved me on and told me never to speak ill of the situation because he was working. Don't talk to me about who's dead or not until you're willing to give 10 years. Jesus suffers with many a lifetime and he recieves them on their deathbed. Don't be the Prodigals brother. Read between the lines a little. Don't just take something by what you see on the surface but dig a little..Love a little more...and take the time...

I can testify to what Miki has just said: Quote "God cleans the inside of the cup first..."
AND
Quote "When a person is really saved the works are the out pouring of the faith not the duty. No one has to make a person that's been saved do works. Ex-q...We are saved by the blood alone. Nothing else. People who say they have faith and don't have fruit aren't saved. Anyone who's saved produces.

If you have to lecture someone to do works they aren't saved period. They need to have a personal encounter with Jesus Christ. Then the life of Christ will pour out of them... not the stench of an old musty bench."

My son in law, before he married my step daughter, grew up in a family whose life was gangs, drugs, alcohol and all the things that come along with these life choices...Now fast forward 6 years ago. My step daughter meet him in high school and she became fasinated and these two began to date...She went into his life instead of him coming to hers...The typical thing happened, she got pregnant. He was trying to come out of this life choice, but the hold was to strong...
Now fast forward some more....They got married, and tried to live in the part of town where he lived and grew up...They started going to church, was even baptized together....She had been professing the Lord as her Savior for many many years...He had never profess the Lord as Savior until he had met her...
Now during these past 1 1/2 years this is what has taken place.....

They found they couldn't live in the same area of town as while she was pregnant other girls wanted to fight her...(gangs)
They moved to our part of town and told no one where they lived...But eventually had some old friends over because the party lifestyle was pulling the heart strings....
NOW remember all the while attending church....

Time passes and he even professes and gets saved again because of all the mess ups he is doing.....

Now lets take it in the present starting from Oct 06 till last night....In Oct someone offered him coke, he took it and that pull grabbed him back in...He began to party all over again, now she is pregnant with their second child...Now to mention that he lives and breaths rap music, the gangster style rap music...It is very vulgar...While in the old neighborhood, he began to stay over there and sometimes not come home....Remember that he had been baptized and saved twice by this time....

On his way home, he ran over a curb or something but it blew his tire out...He pulled over in the old neighborhood and this was about November 06....Guess who pulls up behind him, the police...Of course they know him and decide to search his truck...What did they find? A straw, they sliced it open and tested it for drugs and it came up positive...They arrested him....

His mom got him out of jail and a court date was set....During his time out, did he clean up? NOPE....He left her, told her he didn't want to be with her anymore....He would come and go from their house....She began to pray for the Lord to do the following in his life: 1. remove the desire to want to listen to and write rap music, 2. remove the desire to smoke, drink and do drugs, 3. clean up his speech, 4. use him in a mighty way for the kingdom....Now she is not a saint, but since she had an up bringing in the Word, her foundation had something to stand on. He had nothing but sand as he was not taught anything of the word, just a party lifestyle...He came to my house as I talked with him and the Lord showed me somethings of which I won't share here, but when I began to speak the words the Lord gave me, he began to grow very angry, but I knew it was not him...I didn't attempt to do anything, I just spoke what the Lord instructed me to say...His response was the following, "IT WILL HAVE TO BE A MIRACLE, BECAUSE I CAN'T DO IT!"

She did not want her child around his father as he was completely bad news....They celebrate Christmas and he wanted to go to his father's house, she did not want to....There was nothing holding him back from going, but he chose to not go...Two days after Christmas his dad suddenly died. He had not seen his dad in two months, but now he is dead....He freaked out completely and moved in with his step mom in the old neighborhood...He dived head first into the old lifestyle with out care for his wife, child and the one on the way....he put them in a huge debt...

Now remember he had a court date Jan 8. He didn't want her to meet him there, but she did anyway...She soon found out why he didn't want her to go....There was someone else, he was committing adultry....She came to my house and she just cried....The court had lost his file and could not do anything that day, a new court date was set for Jan 16...During that week he partied his little butt off....She refused to give up....his new date came up, the file was found and he was sentenced to 2 weeks in jail, he was released on Jan 30, just a few days ago....

While he was locked up, she got really mad and decided to cheat on him as well...She went to visit him and told him what she did...That was on Jan 27, Saturday...On Jan 28 he got to thinking about what she did, he called his mom and said he was going to end his life. His family has a history of suicide, even his mother has attempted to do this and he was the one who found her...His phone call to his mother was in the morning on Sunday, that evening as he said he laid in his bunk, he cried out to God...the same God he had flipped off, cussed out, and ignored. The same God he said he had professed a year and half ago...The day before he went to court, he called me...He tried so hard to get me say that he was trash and no good...He said he had sinned way to much and could never be forgiven...I told him not was not true and that we loved him and so did God...
The moment he cried out to God something began to happen in that jail cell...Normally in jail your locked up with about 20 guys...This time he was in a cell with one other person only....While in jail, he was offered drugs, yes they are in there to...He turned it all down...When he began to cry out, his body began to shake, he said he saw his roommate face and he was freaking out...The next thing that happened is what he said it would take, A MIRACLE...He began to throw up blood, he began to expel blood from his urine and his stool turned into tar...His jail mate began to yell for help...Nick said while this was taking place he saw a brillant white light and he heard the voice of Jesus...This is what he said Jesus said to him, "Nickolas, I have removed the 5 demons and made you clean." There is more, but that's all I am going to share...
THis was Sunday night...When the paramedics got him to come around he said they had taken him into the hospital in the jail...They checked him out and found nothing wrong with him....
They put him back in his cell....That Monday, he heard the guys in there rapping, it hurt his ears! LOL!! Praise God....He could smell the cigaretts, they made him sick....LOL!! Praise God.....His desire for drugs and drink were completely gone!!!! PRAISE GOD!!!!
Now let me say this....Nick is not the type of guy who goes in and gets the "jail house saved!" He got out, she picked him up...They came to visit us as he had a message for me and Josh...Something the Lord had told him on Monday night...He had a second visit from the Lord on Monday, but this time, nothing vile being expelled as the real thing happened on Sunday and the cleansing happened on Sunday....The words are precious and we are humbled....

I am humbled by this man, as he is speaking things only the Lord could have given him....Now lets roll back to the beginning....His lip service of profession a year and 1/2 ago was not real, it was just lip service for her...He admitted that and he knew it when he was being dunked in the baptizm pool....Miki what you have said, I have recently been able to witness in the life of my son in law....He is hungry and a sponge for the Lord and what we see on him you just can't fake...He went from being a jumpy frog never able to sit still, to having peace and standing in one place....God indeed cleaned the inside of the cup first....

Where have I judged anybody? All I have said is that a Christian who does not pray is a Christian not at all. As you say, I don't know who is not praying. Who exactly am I supposed to have accused of not praying? I agree that Calvinists of old times were workers and that Calvinists do emphasise works. The protestant work ethic is legendary. However I was not talking about all Calvinists. I was talking about all the Calvinists who do not work, who do not do all those things I listed because they believe wrongly that they have irresistable grace and eternal security of salvation with no works at all.



What an extraordinary load of waffle your post is. Not a single scripture in your whole post. Just rambling on with all your own ideas. Where is this concept of God cleaning the inside of the cup first? Please show me the scripture. What a load of old cobblers. God washes us entirely clean and righteous with the blood of Christ. If we go back to wallowing in the filth of sin, how can this be blamed on God?

Did I not quote to you the scripture
Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Perhaps you ignored it and did not read it. BY THEIR FRUITS YOU SHALL KNOW THEM.

Who's demise am I proclaiming? Surely you are doing those things I listed. Surely you have been baptised. Surely you go to church. Surely you pray. Surely you have ceased from sin. I never accused anybody here of not doing these things.

Or perhaps I have pricked your conscience and rather than turning to the Lord in repentance you instead have responded with personal attacks and erroneus accusations against me.

Many people who "believe on the Lord" and many who go to get baptised are doing it to "get saved". But their heart is far from the Lord. They refuse to abandon their evil deeds and continue to live unwashed lives.
John the Baptist was certainly able to discern them from their fruits.

Luke 3:7 O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 10 And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? 11 He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. 12 Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? 13 And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. 14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence [2] to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages

Each type of people who came to John was taught WHAT THEY MUST DO after they have been baptised.

Let us fear the Lord. Who comes with his fan to purge his floor of all the chaff, who will baptise evildoers with unquenchable fire.

I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 17 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. 18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

I regret to say that a great many Christians are sinning just as stridently as those in the world around them. I say without equivocation that those sinning Christians who cavort with the world will share in the baptism of the world. Being baptised with the unquenchable fire of Christ.

I say to you all that every man will be baptised. Every man will have the opportunity to be baptised with water and the Holy Spirit. But if they will not because of hardness of heart and unbelief then they will most certainly be baptised with unquenchable fire.

Well said Laurel. I am sorry that I have derailed this thread from the subject of the book. Someone suggested that a new thread should have been created about baptism. In hindsight I think that's right. So I'll start a new thread if anyone wants to continue the discussion on baptism.

I think the book is great and I think the artwork is very original and well done.

Ex-q...Since when does the seed of a tree produce fruit the second it busts forth from it's hard and crusty chrysalis?

You had a perfect witness right in front of your face through Pamela's awesome, awesome post and you snubbed your nose at the work of the mighty mercy of God in that young mans life as a witness to everything we've just been talking about. And nobody personally attacked you. It's not attacking to speak the truth with firm exhortation...

Here you gave us a list of what disqualifies someone from ascribing to the name of the Lord...from your observation point of course.



You're the one full of waffles and cobblers...

And if God washes us entirely clean have you never had reason to repent then? Perhaps you wallowed a while? How could that be so if God washed you totally clean. You can't possibly sin or you would would be proving to us ex-q that you are producing sour fruit. How is that possible under the theological guild lines that you've just set for us according to the above? Are you saying it's ok to wallow as long as you do the above as well?

If it is then you fit under this admonition.



So let's give him praise for cleaning us inside first so we won't be preforming a lot of dead works to please the audiance that ex-q belongs to.
_________________________________________________________________________

(Am l in trouble yet? )


Ok...I'm done with that Pam...on to your awesome awesome testimony.

Nick isn't the first backslider God has rescued from the pig pen...But the jealous brother can never let go the bone. He's the one that will be chastised. Thou preparest the table before me in the presence my enemies. Anybody who's ticked off that someone else is getting saved and rewarded has a bigger load of cobblers to deal with than the Prodigal ever had.

Keep us updated to your answered prayers and faithfulness! And lets ask God to strengthen Nick.

Lord we agree together that you will fill Nick with understanding and humility as he sets about this sanctification process. Help him run the race to the finish...You know friends...if you think about it ....

Isn't the finish line the foot of the cross? He did say it is finished. Isn't that where the race really ends? The foot of the cross. The place we lay down all our burdens...the place that Christ took it all on for us. Lets lay it at his feet and receive the fullness of grace and mercy. You too ex-q...receive the fullness of this mercy and grace. Then you will be looking at what's good and right and true and just...

Miki... this is the most beautiful post I've ever read from you.

Love "sees" people... I am where I am because of the love of the saints.

So are telling me that there is one of these things which you do not do? If so which is it and I will explain to you from the scriptures why you should do it. Why do you have such hardness of heart against these instructions which amount to the commandments of Christ. That's right commandments.
John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I disagree that we bear no fruit as soon as we believe. When we believe this is the first and greatest work (fruit) which we produce.
John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Baptism is the second and follows immediately after belief. And which of the other 7 that I listed do you suggest should be delayed following from that.


What a disgraceful teaching to say that the sacrifice of Christ does not wash us entirely clean. This is in direct opposition to
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from ALL sin.
Shame on you. Of course I have sinned. I confess it to God and to men. But I sinned after the Lord cleansed me from all sin. Disgraceful I know. But in turning again to him in repentance I have found forgiveness
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.
Something which has been washed and cleaned can be soiled again can it not? God cleans us entirely pure and righteous, but due to the pulls of the flesh working in our body, sin breaks out and dirties us again. Do you blame God because you have sinned? Because he did not properly wash you? Of course not. Our sin is our own doing and is no blame of God's.


Which important matter are you accusing me of neglecting that justifies my admonition and accusation of hypocrisy? How does this passage support your ridiculous assertion that God washes the inside of the cup and not the outside? Is this what you do in your washing up each night? Do you get a filthy cup with lipstick marks and greasy finger marks on the outside and wash only the inside leaving the grime and filth on the outside? Of course not that would be ridiculous and foolish. You accuse God of foolishness. Of course he washes us completely inside and out. The passage above even says as much. It says.
"First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean"
You're saying the exact opposite that God washes the inside of the cup and the outside will NOT be clean.
Disgraceful and shameful teaching excusing permissiveness and disobedience against the commandments of God.


Absolutely you are in trouble for arguing against the precepts and commands of the Lord. For accusing God of foolishness. For claiming that he has not cleansed us from ALL unrighteousness and filthiness.

I give him praise not only for cleaning the inside but also for cleansing the outside. For cleansing all of my works so that I produce worthy fruits, worthy of repentance. Because they are not my works, lest I boast, but the works of Christ who works in me even as the Father dwelled and worked in him.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

One virtue is patience. God's work is not like a magic wand that makes everything completely different. Yes, once we accept Jesus Christ and everything about him, we are saved. We are His and nothing will take us away from him unless we take ourselves away. He works in us everyday, if we listen. Like you both said, he cleans the inside FIRST. The outside of the cup may get dirty everyday but as long as the inside remains clean, more and more of the outside will stay cleaner everyday. The inside will consume the outside. Cleaning the outside by works will clean the outside, though the inside still festers and rots unnoticed. Our works will NEVER be clean until the inside of the cup is cleaned, once we realize that the works do not save us, the works are a PURE illustration of the cleanliness on the inside of the cup! If works do not come out of a pure heart that seeks nothing but the glory of Jesus Christ then the works are for personal gain only. Any works that do not give glory to our Lord and Savior will be destroyed. I do not do good works to confirm my redemtion or to show others that I am a good person or so that God will favor me or anything that has to do with my personal well being or even my own soul, I do good works because God loves me and blesses me and I want to praise Him and glorify what He has given me. Yes I am working on making that true everyday but that is what I strive for, that is what I want to be cleansed into being. I'm sorry I don't have scriptures to back that up, though I am sure my dad does, that is just what I have come to believe from everything I have heard and read and lived through. I know that Jesus Christ has done all the work for me already and ALL THAT I HAVE TO DO is praise Him for that and watch him bring me out of the darkness that held me and still holds my loved ones. And to help others I simply pray for them because I have no power but He has ALL the power.

Good for you girl and good for your Dad. You're blessed to have him.

Ex-q your full of excuses and want to be deaf so l'm not talking to you anymore. I guess l'm the slowest one to learn. I offered love and you gave me a fist. Case closed. Maybe God can work through someone better then l to speak the truth in love to you.

Ya know Miki, some will see it some will not....It's okay that EQ just past right over it and saw nothing....He seeks (I think it's a he...) seeks to serve their own interest and hey, who am I to judge their path...Not I says the typist...I've learned that lesson well....All we can do is pray and in my opinion not debate with those who lack understanding...

I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your prayers and your willingness to agree in unity for him....
Yes the race is finished at the cross, praise the Lord....

Do keep us informed of the good progress in your testimonys Pam


By the way clay man...Nice Book !!

I will....

That looks like gumby....J/K

I only see one thing wrong with the book. that is the old man made gospel of "Christ in your life God in your life" syndrome. It is a betrayal of the heart or foundation. A false gospel based on the vanity of man. As if there is any life that does not already belong to God. Christ only laid down His Life for His friends "who do what He commands". Check it out.

13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

The true Gospel of Christ tells how you must cast your life down at the foot of the cross and enter into the life that is in Christ Jesus. You must give up the flesh to enter into life. God has made the way. You must come all the way to Him.

27 And whoever does not bear his cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple.

33 So likewise, whoever of you does not forsake all that he has cannot be My disciple.

8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light.
13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy.
14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

Christ doesn't come into your Life But you can come into His by being His friend and doing what He said. Make the crooked path straight.

Dear Christian family
God bless you all. thank you for the positive comments you all gave.
But I just want to say to everyone that I understand that there are probably Christians from all denominations who are apart of this site. I don't go around criticizing many churches because I understand that even though some of us may have differences in our doctrines and teachings the most important is that Jesus Christ is our Lord. Paul told us not to Judge another mans servant in Rom 14. as I quoted earlier. because what ever we are doing is being done to the Lord. I already explained why I teach what I teach concerning Baptism (by Gods' grace) in my second post.

I like going back and forth with the teachings of scripture but I like when we do it in a godly way. our discussion on the matter of baptism can save a soul that's listening to us if we're doing it in love and humility, but it can discourage people from serving Jesus Christ if it's done out of selfishness. so let's be careful.