Gideon said

Ah, but remember Babylon's mother would have the national symbol of a lion and be home to the Chaldeas, England. Also note she would be born in violence, and being the little horn AMerica, would defeat three horns, England, SPain, and France. The ancient Dreuidic mystery religious leaders gave us the statue of Liberty, The masons from france did so. When you approach NEW York harbor guess what, you must pass through Babylon, New York, because it is the straight streched with deep, warm water/ a water tank reads Babyon. Babylon, New York was named by a Jewish man, he named it so because he felt it had some prophetic significance to it as New York has been and still is the worlds busiest seaport, in both exports and imports. The tragic thing is God will call his own out before he destroys America with fire, the unbelievers will burn with it. The nation of babylon will be left completely desolate and will become desert. Strangely God speaks of it as a nation, yet in ancient history it was not burned with fire nor was it a nation at that point. She is now, and it is AMerica. CHristians do not like to hear that yet, it is true. Just like they dont like to hear we will be here for the tribulation, That is a whole other false doctrine developed by the Bravarian bretheren in the late 1800's. We have been lied to by the media and many of our so called churches.


And Yes, many saints and jews will be murdered through concentration camps, but many will escape also and go to Israel or their homelands.

It must be hard for Americans to see that they are a large part of Babylon.
Modern Babylon however is not a case of America bashing.
For the bashers themselves are part of Babylon also.

We have a tendency for urgent identification of good guys versus bad guys.
It used to be so simple, but Satan has dispersed and diffused his tentacles into many many nations.
Babylon is a way of thinking, of arrogance, exhaltation above God.

It is not hard to see that America versus Iran is greed versus hate.
Babylon is even setting up fake wars.
Fire fighters say: fight the fire with fire. Indeed.

So while everyone scrambles and stumbles to prove that they are NOT Babylon,
and meanwhile having no intention to repent and BRING GOD INTO THE EQUATION,
you are Babylon. The more you plaster your faces white on the outside,
the more severe God will deal with you, as a person, as a system or as a nation.
Your choice.

Lay down the greed
Lay down the hatred
Lay down the lust
Lay down the jealousy
Lay down the arrogance
Lay down the ego
Lay down the judging

For you know very well whom you serve in doing so.

Your ideas contain extra-Biblical views that are not directly supported by scripture and they are speculative only. I do not agree with the idea that Daniel's three beasts are symbols of modern nations, but of three ancient political rules of the Middle East. They are all identified by name in scripture and also recorded in historical documents. The 4th dominion is not named and is a future Middle Eastern phase of the set. Three of these beginning with the neo-Babylonian were ruled by Satan's beast, who is not a human by the way, in the ancient past. He will rule the forth containing two stages when he is released from the abyss at the time of the end. His other two rules of the set of 7 were the two prior kingdoms of the Land of Magog and the Akkadian/Assyrian dominions also located in the Middle East that existed before the neo-Babylonian Empire.

I do agree that the USA could be the "great city" defined in Revelation 17 and 18. I also agree that the Vatican and the RRC are not the focus of the passages given. The first beast of Revelation is Satan's mimic and is his "christ", "antichrist", and this besst will manifest in the little horn, king of the northern Middle East. He will conspire with 10 other Middle Easten kings and will confederate the Middle Eastern Islamics by conquering and by alliance in his ambition to destroy Israel and to rule the planet. This is the "conspiracy" as the Bible presents it. Your theory places the USA in the role of the beast and his confederacy, but in fact, the USA will be one of his victims. He and the 10 other kings will destroy the "great city" in one day. I am speculating about the USA here because the Bible does not name the nation in the visions and no one knows where we are on the Lord's time line.

Gideon7620 said,

Babylon indeed is setting up fake wars and very possibly nocking its own towers down to do so. Babylonian kings are committing hanus sins with prostitutes and then murdering them to cover up their sin and shame. Here is proof. Now America brutally genicided 10's of millions of Indians, far worse than anything Hitler did, all for the Manifest destiny and money's sake. IT is quite easy to see who will trust the Beast when he comes on the seen. I do not think it will be bush but someone like him that is an extremely fundamental right winger. One that knows how to talk to the right wing to get votes. etc.

Why are we so surprise that AMerica makes wars, it has been doing so for hundreds of Years. It now has the largest news networks in the world to cover its sin. I strongly believe that Bush and the mass media are going to fabricate anohter terrorist strike to have an excuse to invade Iran. WHo knows they may nuke one of our cities. They have already stated we need to be fighting in the Middle east for 100 years. They are preping the masses for world control and dominations, the New world order.

Here are a couple of interesting news clips and statements.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMhHJmfS2ro

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkgGOFXuYPw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kX0sLFXR0Q

Funny, President Kennedy was not such a bad president afterall. He knew of the secret societies and infiltration of America. He did all he could to stop it and it got him killed. SO called christians do not want to admit Amerca is a pagan nation that leads others into Idolatry and paganism. The statue of liberty is an image of the babylonian harlot and of the babylonian goddess Ishtar. Face it there is no way to prove this wrong. AMerica fits into it in every category. We even have more Jews living here than Israel itself or any other nation in the world. Babylon is prophecied to have that and we do. That is why GOd says, my people come out of her for her sins have reached to heaven, speaking to Jews and Christrians. When we have anohter terrorist attack MARSHALL LAW will be implemented. you think 911 was bad and the patriot act and its disolvent of our national sovereignty and rights. you aint seen nothing yet. Wait until the precurser of the Iranian invasion. You know with the patriot act Bush can stay in office if we suffer a terrorist attack, and he can suspend the election. I bet most of you dobting Thomas's dd not even know that. You think you are free, you had better think again, because you are not. Hitler did the same exact things to start wars. He created false media frenzies to license him with overwhelming national support to invade countries he wanted, for power and money.

History is repeating itself. The scarry part now is the mass media is involved and I AM sure they have me marked for what i am writing. You are only as free as they want you to be. They can declare you a terrorist, invade you home with no search warrant, put you in some secluded jail, no call to your attorney, interegate or hold you as long as they wish, and do as they please to you, without out any remorse. now do you think you are a free american. You had better think again. Thanks to bush and the patriot act. 911 occured to jack up gas prices, and to strip away your freedoms.

I know im not gonna change anyones mind if they think america is babylon..and maybe it is ...obviously i dont think it is....most people that think america is babylon also think there is no pretrib rapture, our government planned 9/11 and we are the most evil entity in the world...and dont forget they are killing us with chemtrails...i know im not changing any minds on any of that...but i just gotta say for all those who have a death wish for america; 90% of the the born again protestants live right here in the evil usa....and i dont recall the usa killing prophets??? we dont currently trade in ivory or slaves...both have been outlawed internationally and we, unlike most countries abide by international laws...dubai does still trade ivory and slaves...and as far as cars go; dubai is the worlds fastest growing reexporter of cars...stephen makes a good point...timing is everything here...if there is a pretrib rapture, it will destroy america as we know it...no nukes needed...then, some other "city" will have an opening to be the city like no other...and i believe the list in revelation is literal...the babylon of revelation must trade in those things listed...all those things...ONLY dubai fits that right now..

Ah ok I see. That pretrib rapture is wishful thinking there is no such thing anywhere in the Bible. I challenge someone to show me here right now. I WILL demonstrate otherwise. Remember in II Thesolonians, these things shall not come until there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, who exalteth and oposeth himself above all that is called God, By showing himself that he is God. The abomination desolation. YOU will most likely be here for the tribulation. Jesus is not coming anytime soon, at least for nearly 7 years. You will most...........,more later

You mis-interpret 2Thessalonians by the way. Good luck on your venture to deny the Lord's coming "harpazo" action and related timing. Many attempt to do this, but the scriptures taken together tell a different story. They do not support your theory.

Gideon said,
Great, You misinterpreted my clear statement that Jesus could not return for at least 7 years, and I just made it again. The post tribulational return of Christ is a fact. Let's go off into a rabbit trail about the Return of my Savior and venture away from America being the whore she is, that is what GOd calls her btw.

It is you that have misinterpreted I Thesselonians and II Thesselonians. The second return of Christ will not consist of two parts it will be all in all in one event. In simple terms without digging deep into the doctrinal interpretations of the Greek and HEBREW, Jesus stated in Revelation, I am Alpha and Omega Which is. He has always been Yaweh, Yashua, the self existing eternal one. All others as us and the angels must say we are or have been created. He also says Which was, that is self explanitory, He was amoung us and was born of a virgin.He was amoungst us and walked with us. His final presentation to humanity will be his return, In this form His is Yet to come. There is no yet to come and come again. His second coming is one event, nowhere do we find a secret, hidden mysterious coming to catch the saints away while everyone wonders what happened to them all. You will find this fairy tale no where in scripture.

I have found that most independent, fundamental, Bible believing Christians that claim to know the facts about the second coming, first of all do not know. Secondly they are just repeating what has been taught to them and have never researched the facts themselves. I will take it a step further, most believe this becasue their pastor tells them so. Their pastor believes it because his pastor or fathers told him so. THere is never and never can be any scriptural basis for this false doctrinal belief. I will briefly demonstrate this.

First of all, this false doctrine came about slowly starting with diluted forms of it since the 1200's. It took its final rest as a pretibulational rapture, false doctrine in about the early 1800's with the plymouth breathern in Dublin. Shortly after that they were discontented with the protestant movement at that time and began to hold their own meetings. Soon others joined the movement and others sprang up. Darby, J N entered the movement in 1827/ Other outstanding Plymouth fellowship bretheren were BW Newton, George Muller, the man of prayer, and P Tregelles. Darby's leadership role in prophetic interpretation took place here in these meetings. It was here that the pretribulational rapture false doctrine was formed. ITregelles a member of the bretheren in the early days clearly tells us that the ideal of a secret rapture and secret coming had its orgins and utterance in Irving Edward's church and that this was taken to be the voice of the Spirit.Tregelles says it was from that supposed revelation that this false doctrine came from. Note it did not come from scripture, show me anywhere.

It was popularized by Willian Kelly. In the early 19th century post millinialism was the dominant form of prophetic interpretaion in AMERICA. The new prophetic enphasis found its place at once in America in the prophetic and Bible conference movement. AC Gabelien telling the story in the Scofield Reference Bible finds its back ground within this movement. Interest in this wishful thinking false doctrine grew so much that Nathanial West suggested having a conference. The conference was called to meet in the Holy Trinity Episciple Church in 1878. A second prophetic conference was held in CHicago in 1886/ many famous preacher personalities went to both, too many to mention.

Another series of meeting of even greater importance, to help spread this false doctrine was held in Niagra from 1883-1887.This is where the false doctrine really grew or was not accepted by a few. In view of the modern day notion that pretibulatoinlism has been one of the foundational tenants of a sound presentation of prophetic truth, it is important to note that many of the leaders of this early prophetic Bible conference movement either were post tribulationalist or became Posttribulationalist.Many people of the Niaggra Conference accepted Darby's false, new doctrine of pretibulationalism. SOme of the most strongest supporters of this false view were Scofield, AT Pierson, J H Brookes,

AJ Gordon, though he attended many Niag Conferences, could not accept it. Though many preachers would consider him dangerous today.

Who cares about the 1880's lets go back to the early days, very near my Lord's birth, death, burial and ressurection. What you will find is that early day, great preachers and saints were fans of the post tribulational rapture. SOme of these were the Prophet of Hermes, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, just to name a few. Would you rather trust someone 300 years away from the birth of Christ or some modern day goof balls that dont know what they are talking about. In bible school we were always taught to go with laws of first mention. But we can interpret this easily for ourselves, with GOd's holy words, unless we choose to try and change the interpretation thereof to something that is not even there.

Show me in the Gospels ohterewise, in Daniel, Revelation, I and II Thesselonians, you cant. Look what Justin Martyr had to say about this subject in about 150 AD, BTW, HE was a vowed premillinialist or posttrib if you would.He knows the church will go through tribulation as he states, "He shall come from heaven in clouds of glory when the man of apostacy shall speak strange things against the Most High. He shall venture to do unlawful things against us Christians, who having learned the true worship of God from the law and the word that went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and of Israel."

Justin Martyr.

Now tell me, do you wish to discuss this in more detail using scriptural proof or is this sufficient evidence. Shall we start with I and II Thessolonians since you believe I have misinterpreted them? I am all ears and waiting for your opinion as to where we should start, in the Bible.

I do not buy your evidence at all and there is no need to proceed further. Our views are extremely different. I have debated 100's of the same off course ideas, including yours, and I don't believe this one would produce any benefit. Maybe you can find someone else on the forum to rant with. Good luck. I would also say that I detect a good measure of pride and even hostility in you demeanor which is out of bounds as far as I am concerned.

Gideon said,

Ivory has been outlawed world wide, unless you are a pocher or are selling it in the black market it can not be done. Sure it is sold in small quantities but you do not see the mass murdering of elephants to get ivory, not even in AMERICA, THOUGH WE SELL THE MOST. Though america is responsible for dealing in ivory more than any other nation in the world, in the past. I am sure there is a black market for it as there is with Cuban Cigars.

Slavery, you and I are slaves to the oil companies, wake up and smell the coffee. You are a slave to the Federal Reserve nad all they desire upon you.

THis news clip is comical and has some vulgar language, be forwarned. I hope this does not put me on the moderators hit list. If you do not wish to here profanity do not look at this, WARNING. I must say though, the secular unsaved world knows much more about most Christians as to what is really going on the world and In America. We are all slaves to the new Patriot Act, resulting from 911. You are not free, but a slave to mass media, The NWO, THE oil companies, and to Hollywood. Uncle sam owns you and all you think you have. Like I said this man doesnot make his presentation in a Christian way, but you have to give him credit, he knows alot about what is happening in this NWO, AND AMerica.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbH__ItaTbs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l31eIwZvW8M

In case you did not realize, your libbiest are whoring around and it appears they are mudering to cover their wrongful deeds, this is America, wake up


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMhHJmfS2ro

Gideon7620 said,


Fine, if you don't believe the evidence perhaps we can start with I and II Thessolonians. I get really excited converting pretribers to the post tribulational or premillinial fact. Who was Jesus speaking to in all the Gospels but the church when refering to his coming and the end of the world or last human time span, era or age if you would.

Here is Mathew 24 and it does not take a rocket scientist by any means to figure this out. Unfortunately, many Christians believe what they are taught by their pastor or parents, strictly on the basis of Paradosis, Church traditions and Church wealth. They put something imaginable in it that does not even exist, afterall who the heck wants to be here when the antichrist commits his wicked attrocities. That is worse than saying I would have loved to been in Natzi Germany as a Jew when Hitler reigned. Any person with literacy can comprehend what Jesus is saying. Sinful and prideful nature in man wants what he thinks to be a better way for things to transpire. Oh GOd could never do that to us, we are not appointed to wrath. We are God' elect. We are not of the darkness and are to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. Yes salvation but not deliverance from persecution. THis is what makes the heart pure and humble to God. It is prideful to think otherwise. All the saints of the past have been beheaded, sawn assunder, crucified and burned to the steak. Why would God exempt the church of the latter day during the final stretch of the race. He does not, not found in scripture anywhere. We are not appointed to God's wrath. This is true from a certain perspective using biblical truths, but never in biblical history has GOd's people been exempted from the wrath of Satan. We will suffer persecution and great tribulation, but not by GOd's hand. He has appointed us to obtain salvation by the grace of our Saviour, Jesus Christ. God may even choose to shelter some in the Great Tribulation from Satans wrath during the great tribulation. We see that divine deliverance in the two prophets of revelation chapter 11. God will shelter the saints from the vials and bowls of wrath He, GOD pours out on satan's kingdom, on SATAN and his followers as he did with the children of Israel during the exodus.

In I Thessolonians we read that our tribulations, suffering and presecutions, are a manifest token of our salvation. Simply stated if we do not give in and deny the Bilble its teaching and our Savior, this is proof that we are saved. Us suffering tribulation is proof we are saved. I'll say it again, the pretribulational rapture doctrine is false and wishful thinking. I would rather believe the Bible, Justin Martyr and other reliable sources any day before I believe a bunch of discontented preachers from the 1800's.

Now I uderstand where preachers and teachers get their fairy tale, fantacy, pretribulational beliefs. I have mentioned in summary, about half of them above. Unfortuately for these such, there is nothing in scripture to support their misguided hearts and minds. They still rather follow tradition and pride instead of researching it for themselves and taking God's word for what it says. There is no hidden mystery, it is plain truth, but we have been dooped with the second coming as we have been dooped about AMERICA not being the harlot. The two go hand in hand and have an alterior motive. Why do you think we are so friendly to Israel, because this has a prophetic purpose. Imagine the antichrist coming from AMERICA, the friend of Israel. Finally he will sit in their rebuilt temple and claim to be the Messiah. What better way to form deception than to be an ally, a close friend.

I want to elaborate a bit on one verse. I beleive this is the main verse of Mathew 24. We see the antichrist committing the abomination that makes desolate, when he sits in the soon to be rebuilt temple and claims to be God. Then we see great tribulation such as was not ever seen before, anywhere.

Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Notice, John tells us, and I will paraphrase this, unless if God had not shortened the great tribulation period to about 3.5 years, which is the second part of the final week No flesh would be saved. God can not have that becasue in II Thessolonians we are told that the Dead in Christ would rise first, than we which are alive and remain during Satan's terror would be caught up to meet them in the air. Notice that John says, but for the elect's sake God hath shortened those day. Truthfully, if GOd would have given the antichrist more time to slaughter the Christians he would have slaughtered them all. But for the elects sake God has shortened those days, because there are two parts to redemtion, the resurrection and rapture of the dead saints, and rapture of the living. Therefore God shortened those days to prevent Satan from killing all the living saints allowing the completion and fulfilling of prophecy. Notice except those days should be shortened there would be no salvation via rapture of the living saints. But for the elect, or churches sake, christians, saints, God hath shortened those days. He shortened the days so living saints would still be alive to rapture, the second part of salvation or rapture.

God tells us during the great tribulation, we are told more souls will be saved than ever. How can this happen if the Holy Spirit is gone as pre tribers believe. Truthfully the Holy Spirit is a person and one of the three parts of the God head. He also plays an integral part of the salvation process. We know the God head is omnipotent, omnicient, and for this purpose, most importantly, omnipresent. The Holy Spirit is part of God and therefore everywhere, meaning he can never leave the earth as pretribers teach. Certainly, there will be more souls saved during the Great Tribulation than ever. This would be impossible without the presence of the Holy Spirit. It would be impossible for Him to be gone and He the Holy Spirit is omnipresent, can be anywhere and everywhere at once.




Mathew 24

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to [him] for to shew him the buildings of the temple.


Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.


Mat 24:3 ¶ And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?


Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.


Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all [these things] must come to pass, but the end is not yet.


Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


Mat 24:8 All these [are] the beginning of sorrows.


Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.


Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.


Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.


Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.


Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.


Mat 24:15 ¶ When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)


Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:


Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:


Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!


Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:


Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.


Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.


Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:


Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Mat 24:32 ¶ Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer [is] nigh:


Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.


Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.


Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


Mat 24:36 ¶ But of that day and hour knoweth no [man], no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,


Mat 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Mat 24:41 Two [women shall be] grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


Mat 24:45 ¶ Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?


Mat 24:46 Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;


Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;


Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,


Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Gideon said,
Sure the USA is extremely evil we have legislated the murder of innocent unborn and born babies, millions, more people than Hitler ever dreamed of murdering. We have a tendency to sugar coat AMerica's sin, because we have nice cars, homes, and big screen tv's Oh just play national football and baseball for us and we will all be happy Americans, fuie.

Oh ye bunch of superquoters! Keep your posts readable instead of all these nested quotes...

Before we have another case of America-bashing, I tell you this:
If you fail to see that Babylon is everywhere, then you, my friend, have impaired vision.
Also, I testify that I have seen the Rapture already.

It is none of my doing, but God who showed me.
All Praise be to God, the Merciful, the Loving Father.

Gideon7620 said,

SUre Babylon is everywhere and thanks for pointing that out. THanks to America, she has intoxicated the world with her filth as we see in Revelation. Man if the rapture accured you missed it.

America does not "sit on 7 hills." The "Great Whore" in ROME does.

America has never been "drunk with the blood of saints." America has never targeted "saints".

The Vatican Inquisitions openly targeted and mass murdered "saints" for centuries before USA even existed.

The Great Whore is repeatedly called a "city".

America is not a "city". The Vatican IS often referred to as a "city".

As for "reigning over kings of the earth".

Did you notice the way the "elites" of USA kissed the popes butt during the recent visit ?

The elites of just about every nation except China give great respect to the pope. And have done so for centuries.

Now the reports are that even China is warming up to the pope.

A lot of the bad things USA elites have done in the last 50 years have been done due to ROMAN CATHOLIC behind the scenes influence.

Such as American support of the ROMAN CATHOLIC ruling class of S.Vietnam. Diem was hand picked by Cardinal Spellman.

Here you have an example of USA in general being smeared and weakened due to war fought to benefit ROMAN CATHOLIC HIERARCHY.

The Vatican was "fornicating with the kings" a thousand years before USA even existed.

Pope can pick up phone and give orders to MANY [God only knows exactly how many] heads of state and CEOs of big business and media elites etc etc.

Those who contend USA is "great whore" and who contend Vatican is not, are rendering service to the Vatican. So be it.

In the end they will regret serving the interest of the "Great Whore" of the "city of 7 hills."

The rest of "Christian" organized religion constitutes the children of the "great whore".

Gideon said,

Interesting, Well truthfully, I believe the Roman Catholic Church plays a major role in end times as an antichrist Church. However, the vatican and church are by no means the Harlot mentioned in Revelation. This will be demonstrated hopefully by weeks end. I agree with you in that they will bring worship to the beast, I believe this with all my heart. But The papacy can be defined as being the false prophet's seat in revelation.

The antichrist will arise from the Harlot City, State, Nation province, New York, New York, America, the land of sin and wickedness. America murders and has murdered over fifty million born and unborn black babies alone through what is know as legalized murder, abortion. Interestingly enough more black babies have been aborted than any race. This is far worse than the Roman Church and Hitler ever dreamed of, combining the two together. The babies are saints, no theologian would argue that as they have not even had a chance to reach the age of accountability, here is a big pool of the blood of the saints for you. America murdered 10's of milliions of Indians during its foundation. America has more crime, sin, murder, pornagraphy, and injustice than any country in the world. You must be white like myself, the only difference is you do not realize the injustices that have been committed against people of color because of their race. Unless you knw or see, you do not know and live in an imaginary world.

Proving America is the whore will be easy, using the scripture. Proving modern day babylon is a city, state, nation will be very easy. Modern day babylon is a city, state, nation province that sits and rest upon the practice of the previous 6 hills empires, kindoms, It is the seventh hill mountain as described in the old testament, and will be consumed by fire by the antichrist and the eighth world empire, the confederate of 10 nations.

hey Justice,
tell us about your vision of the rapture that God showed you...
thnks

Well to start off we will have to make this as simple as possible. We are all in aggreement that there have been six, 6, world empires, the seventh will be modern day Babylon. The eight will be the 10 nation confederate the antichrist forms in one hour to destroy the whore nation, or the seventh empire, in which the antichrist evolves from or is born from, if you would. We see this very clearly in scripture. Here are a few verses to prove this point.

Here in this segment of Revelation we see the past present and future.
And upon her forehead [was] a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.


Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.


Rev 17:7 ¶ And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.


Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Rev 17:9 And here [is] the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.


Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.


Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.


Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.


Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

We note the beast carries the Harlot throughout time, with this ancient mystery religion, political, economic system of worldliness. Take notice John points out the 10 Nation which form the eighth world empire. He also points out the seven heads or mountains the woman sits upon. These seven heads or maountains are all the Empires of the world excluding the final one, the eighth or 10 nation confederate the beast forms in one hour after he decides to betray the whore and burn her with fire. It will be the ultimate inside job. Notice the bible says the seven heads are the seven mountains or empires or nations the woman sits upon, ultimately taking her final place in America, the city, state, and nation.

Look what chapter 13 of Revelation says.
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.


Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as [the feet] of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.


Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Note and we will look at it later in detail as the woman sits upon many waters, the waters are not actually interpreted in this case as waters, but rather as diverse languages and cultures. America is a nation of diverse languages, cultures, religions, credes, beliefs, etc. There is no other country as diverse as America, in the world, ever in human history. No longer is there any city of self administration, or even city state provinces that stand alone. We in modern times have city, state nations because of population explosions since the late 1800's. SImple research easily shows the population numbers skyrocketing since the late 1800 and since the beginning of the industrial revolution. We indeed are the melting pot of the world, babylon, the new city, state, nation province of modern day era. This is very precise when speaking of America, diverse in culture, more than any, and sitting upon the greatest bodies of water in the World.

Though in the old testament when it speaks of modern day Babylon and the many waters it sits upon, it is making reference to H2O, or bodies of water. We have the great lakes of which, Lake Superior is the lagest fresh water lake in the world. We also have the largest oceans in the world on eighther side of us, The Atlantic and Pacific oceans, not to mention the many rivers, lakes, Gulfs etc. Without a conflicting doubt Ameica has the greatest seaports and bodies of water in the world.


Also note the seven mountains the Harlot sits on are not literal mountains, though Sanfransisco and Bohemia Grove sit on seven hills. The Bohemians, many of our presidents, international leaders, and the wealthiest of the world pracitice ancient dreuidic, Babylonian, mock, supposedly, human sacrifices here, once a year in mid July. So for aguments sake we could theoretically say San Fransisco sits on seven hills, as Rome does, but that is not necessary. Really, though that is not what we are seeing here. We are seeing the seven mountains here as representing seven World empires, the woman being the seventh. We will demonstate that later using the new and old testament as we go along.

Observe what the angel tells John about the beast that is, is not, and yet is. This is becasue he is when he ruled babylon as the seventh world empire. He seemingly becomes is not when he betrays the whore with a 10 nation confederate and burns her, his own nation with fire. So, for the space of one hour he appears to be not as his country is destroyed by 10 others he forms an allegiance with. That is why John describes it as such. Five are fallen, one is (The Roman Empire of John Day being the sixth mountain or head), the seventh John prophecies is yet to come. Take note he even tells us the eighth will arise as a result of the antichrist betraying the whore.

Notice he is the eighth and is of the seventh and goeth into perididiton. This is the key to understanding how babylon is not only a nation or mountain but that it is destroyed by many other nations the beast unites with and takes control of. The ten other kingdoms have not receive power as of yet but receive power with the beast for one hour to accomplish God's will.

Finally take notice in Revelation 13 the only head left to be wounded is modern day Babylon. The previous six heads, mountains, empires, countries, etc are done and past, the last being the Roman Empire. We note that one of the heads, the final form of Babylon was wounded as unto death, by the beast himself with his 10 nations of allies. Then all the world wonders and marvels in admiration, after the beast when his deadly wound is healed and he maintains his authority as world leader. Now he rules through 10 nations and not from Babylon after her destruction by the beast or himself. That is frankly what much of the world wants now. They are bitter towards America because of her parasidic tendencies of sucking all the wealth out of nations. So the world will marvel after the beast and follow him blindly in admiration and adoration. I beleive this is when he claims to be GOD and sits in the temple, after the destruction of Babylon, his home contry, for it is then the world will be vulnerable to his delusional lies, when they are in a state of admiration, and marvel.


More later

for some time now, ever since i have been convinced that america may very well be the babylon, i've never looked at the food store "costco" the same.

whenever i shop there now, i feel like such a selfish and greedy person. the amount of food that is in the stores is truly incredible if you think about it. the majority of americans don't realize how easy we have it. there are so many people dying of starvation every day, and then here i am staring in front of giant bulks of food, ready to be bought by the average citizen. something is wrong with this picture.

and just to give some perspective, my mom told me that in hawaii, the costcos are giant tourist attractions. the fact that we sell and buy things in such huge quantities apparently fascinates them.

The first part is published here.
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=18115

Finally take notice in Revelation 13 the only head left to be wounded is modern day Babylon. The previous six heads, mountains, empires, countries, etc are done and past, the last being the Roman Empire. We note that one of the heads, the final form of Babylon was wounded as unto death, by the beast himself with his 10 nations of allies. Then all the world wonders and marvels in admiration, after the beast when his deadly wound is healed and he maintains his authority as world leader. Now he rules through 10 nations and not from Babylon after her destruction by the beast or himself. That is frankly what much of the world wants now. They are bitter towards America because of her parasidic tendencies of sucking all the wealth out of nations. So the world will marvel after the beast and follow him blindly in admiration and adoration. I beleive this is when he claims to be GOD and sits in the temple, after the destruction of Babylon, his home contry, for it is then the world will be vulnerable to his delusional lies, when they are in a state of admiration, and marvel.


More later

I have enclosed the last paragraph of the last post to pick up from hear. Now that we see tha beast and Babylon shall arise out fo the seventh world empire let's look at Babylon in paticular. Babylon we mentioned is a City, state, nation province and not the Vatican. There are hundred of verses we can use to describe and characterize Babylone, but for times sake we will use a few. First off the Vatican is not Babylon becasue the Kings of the nations do not meet there to make decisions that impact the world. The kings of the earth do however meet in New York city at the UN Security Counsil on a regular basis to creat international law and decisions. The Vatican does not have a world trading center as New York does where all of the kings of the earth trade and are made wealthy; New York does. As a matter of fact New York imports and exports more goods of every kind imaginable under the sun, and is the trading center, hub of the world. It is recognized by all trading nations as the capital of the world. This is only one US port, think about Chicago, it is huge on trade, San Fransico, LA, Seattle, Alaska, Hawaii, The entire east and west coast lines, Atlanta, Florida, the Gulf region. No country in the world trades like the US, no country.

In this paticular chapter of Isaiah we see the destruction of modern day babylon, note it is not the Vatican or Rome. This is the day of the Lord a future date that any theologian knows has not occured. We see babylon is a Nation and not a City, or City State but a modern day nation that is far from its enemies whom will bring destruction to it. Here as in Revelation we see God has called these mighty kings to unite and destroy the whore that she is and has been. This is the 10 nation alliance we see in Revelation that take alliance with the beast to destroy her. Note hand shake a peaceful modern day gesture the kings use to lure Babylon into destruction. The hand shake is unheard of in ancient time as is babylon being a naiton. FInally take note of the heavens, the darkening of the stars, the sun and moon etc. The astronomical signs or events only occur during the Great TrIbulation, shortyly before the coming of Christ. This is also seen in the Gospels as well it is seen in revelation. These neuclear or Hydrogen bombs shall disfigure the earth as well as the sky. These are modern day prophecies not ancient. This disfigurment of the earth has not ocuured yet.



The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.


Isa 13:2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.


Isa 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, [even] them that rejoice in my highness.


Isa 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.


Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even] the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.


Isa 13:6 ¶ Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:


Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.


Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.


The rich and powerful rulers of the earth shall finally be brought low as Babylon is destroyed. God shall put it into their hearts to fulfill his will. Here is more prophecy about Modern day babylon in yet another chapter of Isaiah. There are too many prophecies to cover them all here without writing a book here.


Come down, and sit in the dust, O virgin daughter of Babylon, sit on the ground: [there is] no throne, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called tender and delicate.


Isa 47:2 Take the millstones, and grind meal: uncover thy locks, make bare the leg, uncover the thigh, pass over the rivers.


Isa 47:3 Thy nakedness shall be uncovered, yea, thy shame shall be seen: I will take vengeance, and I will not meet [thee as] a man.


Isa 47:4 ¶ [As for] our redeemer, the LORD of hosts [is] his name, the Holy One of Israel.


Isa 47:5 ¶ Sit thou silent, and get thee into darkness, O daughter of the Chaldeans: for thou shalt no more be called, The lady of kingdoms.


Isa 47:6 I was wroth with my people, I have polluted mine inheritance, and given them into thine hand: thou didst shew them no mercy; upon the ancient hast thou very heavily laid thy yoke.


Isa 47:7 And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: [so] that thou didst not lay these [things] to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.


Isa 47:8 ¶ Therefore hear now this, [thou that art] given to pleasures, that dwellest carelessly, that sayest in thine heart, I [am], and none else beside me; I shall not sit [as] a widow, neither shall I know the loss of children:


Isa 47:9 But these two [things] shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, [and] for the great abundance of thine enchantments.


Isa 47:10 For thou hast trusted in thy wickedness: thou hast said, None seeth me. Thy wisdom and thy knowledge, it hath perverted thee; and thou hast said in thine heart, I [am], and none else beside me.


Isa 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, [which] thou shalt not know.


Isa 47:12 ¶ Stand now with thine enchantments, and with the multitude of thy sorceries, wherein thou hast laboured from thy youth; if so be thou shalt be able to profit, if so be thou mayest prevail.


Isa 47:13 Thou art wearied in the multitude of thy counsels. Let now the astrologers, the stargazers, the monthly prognosticators, stand up, and save thee from [these things] that shall come upon thee.


Isa 47:14 Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: [there shall] not [be] a coal to warm at, [nor] fire to sit before it.


Isa 47:15 Thus shall they be unto thee with whom thou hast laboured, [even] thy merchants, from thy youth: they shall wander every one to his quarter; none shall save thee.
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Note Babylon the daughter or rebirh of her is refered to as a virgin. Ameica is as virgin as you can get, a land undiscovered by the Old World until Christipher Columbus came along. Note before her destruction her shame shall be visible for Christians and many to see. We are starting to see that shame now in astronomical amounts. She will no longer be called the lady of kingdoms, or the mightiest of them all, as America is and will soon be not. Notice as in Revelation she says, I will be a lady forever and will not be a widow nor see sorrow. That is the perfect depiction of the American attitude. I will always be blessed by God. We will always be blessed by God, inspite of our sin and hellish alliance with Satan. God loves this wicked country inspite of our wickedness. Because of her wickedness, and being given to pleasure, and her saying in her heart, there is none else beside me she will be utterly destroyed by God's will using the nations, with Neuclear fire and brimestone as we see in other verses. She pridefully boast, I will not be a widow nor have loss of children. Therefore in one day, in one moment as describe in Revelation, in one hour shall she become a widow and lose her children to her enemies. This can only mean nuclear destruction, to have it happen so quickly, and there are other verses to prove this.

Notice all this tragedy comes on her for two main reason, for the multitude of her sorceries and for her enchantments. This is drug abuses and witchcraft, the occult. American has been actively involved in the occult since her birth, she is more actively involved in the occult than any other nation. She has legalized drug adiction through the highest profitting pharmaceuticals in the world. In a great real sence, our politicians have allowed legalized drug pushers to dope up America with ridalin, Zoloph, Prozac and many other harmful narcotics, while the pharmacy companies get disgustingly filthy rich. Even now, our presidents are involved in the occult, very deeply involved with the kings of the earth and the wealthiest of the world. Here is some solid proof and there is alot more out there. Just look at the back of your dollar bill. A man by the name of ALex Jones risked his life and his family's life to get this information.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983


Well I THINK that is enough for now. But later we will even show more proof that Babylon is a nation, not the Vatican or city. It is a nation, state, and city. Most definately, it is America for she is the only one that fits into all the Bilbe prophecies.

Gideon7620 said,

Immortality, I know where you are coming from. I worked for Costco for some time in Merrillville, In, recently. As a young teenager, and into my early 20's, back in the early and mid 80's, I had the privelege of working at fruit stands and large fruit markets, the largest in my region. In any event, you would not believe all the food we saw at the Chicago Water Market. That in and of itself was quite disturbing. What was even more disturbing was seeing truck loads of fruit and meat being thrown away and incinerated to help keep maket prices up. My friends and I were disgusted with this. So we tried to make the best of it and guess how far the fruit juices would squirt out of the garbagae trucks as they compressed truck load of fruit. Without a doubt in my mind, America is the Harlot, she fits her to the tee. So much has she glorified herself in all her food, resources, and wealth, like no other nation in human history. Is it any wonder her sins have reached unto heaven. Her over abundance of resources has caused her to commit every sin imaginable. When people are hurting they have a tendency of wanting to worship God. As a governing body or nation we have never seen America in distress, therefore, she becomes more wicked as time passes.

Here is a bit more proof that Babylon is a nation, actually the youngest of great nations, hindermost of the naitons, and the greatest of all nations.

Now it is time to show Babylon is a Mountain, a nation, a burning mountain as desribed in Revelation and in the old testament also. Note she is desribed as a woman that sits upon seven mountains, not literal mountain, in this case God is depicting Babylon as nation or more specifically an empire. We even see a hint in this passage that she is destroyed with missles. For an arrow in bible terms would be classified as a missle in our time of technological warfare.

Remove out of the midst of Babylon, and go forth out of the land of the Chaldeans, and be as the he goats before the flocks.


Jer 50:9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows [shall be] as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.


Jer 50:10 And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.


Jer 50:11 ¶ Because ye were glad, because ye rejoiced, O ye destroyers of mine heritage, because ye are grown fat as the heifer at grass, and bellow as bulls;


Jer 50:12 Your mother shall be sore confounded; she that bare you shall be ashamed: behold, the hindermost of the nations [shall be] a wilderness, a dry land, and a desert.


Jer 50:13 Because of the wrath of the LORD it shall not be inhabited, but it shall be wholly desolate: every one that goeth by Babylon shall be astonished, and hiss at all her plagues.


Jer 50:14 Put yourselves in array against Babylon round about: all ye that bend the bow, shoot at her, spare no arrows: for she hath sinned against the LORD.


Jer 50:15 Shout against her round about: she hath given her hand: her foundations are fallen, her walls are thrown down: for it [is] the vengeance of the LORD: take vengeance upon her; as she hath done, do unto her.


Jer 50:16 Cut off the sower from Babylon, and him that handleth the sickle in the time of harvest: for fear of the oppressing sword they shall turn every one to his people, and they shall flee every one to his own land.


Jer 50:17 ¶ Israel [is] a scattered sheep; the lions have driven [him] away: first the king of Assyria hath devoured him; and last this Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon hath broken his bones.


Jer 50:18 Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.


Jer 50:19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead.


Jer 50:20 In those days, and in that time, saith the LORD, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and [there shall be] none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found: for I will pardon them whom I reserve.


Jer 50:21 ¶ Go up against the land of Merathaim, [even] against it, and against the inhabitants of Pekod: waste and utterly destroy after them, saith the LORD, and do according to all that I have commanded thee.


Jer 50:22 A sound of battle [is] in the land, and of great destruction.


Jer 50:23 How is the hammer of the whole earth cut asunder and broken! how is Babylon become a desolation among the nations!

Take notice that God will raise an assembly of Great nations to fulfill His will in the destruction of Babylon. We also see this in revelation as the Beast forms an alliance to destroy the seventh head or mountain, empire. Note they ars also noted as being from the North Country. This the Great Bear of the north, Russia and an alliance of Arab nations.

She even has a mother nation, that being England, and she shall be confounded to see her daughter, America destroyed by arrows, missles from the North country. These missles will fly over the north pole, the shortest distance to America. America is even known as being the hindermost of nations, or the youngest of great nations. She will become a desolate nation. It is important to examine that Babylon is not a state or city here but a nation, a very great nation. We will not go into all the detail in that, but there is a lot to fit America's greatness in scripture, there is much that makes America Babylon, anything you can imagine that make her great.

As she hath done do unto her. She hath murdered millions baby saints, unborn and born. Here rulers have betrayed its people and corrupted her foundations. Her ruler have bowed to idols of Baal as Bohemia Grove and Skull and Bone Society. The Federal Reserve is an illegal banking system that has robbed her citizens of their wealth. As she has done so do unto her. Babylon has infested its citizens with hollywood and a babylonian form or religion and corruption. Her pastor, especially those classified as mega church pastors have mislead their flocks for filthy lucre's sake. This is not to say all pastor are bad, I have a very good one, but we have a small church. Her pastors have become political entities of the community instead of consencrated servants of God. Let her rulers cry to their idols, gods, seers, prognasticators, and wizards to deliver her now. God will not here but he will judge her and burn her with fire, as he puts it into the hearts of many nations to do so.

God will call his elect out of Babylon, before her destruction and he shall pardon the sins of his elect, and those whom he has reserved. They that are righteous shall shine as the firmament forever. The wicked shall be as stuble and the fire shall consume them. Babylon, the hammer of the earth, law maker, kingdom of kingdoms, shall be brought to desolation, and shall be a desolation amoung the nations of the world. The nations of the world shall wonder how is such great riches brought to nought in one hour, nothingness, desolation, anialation, desert waste land. This my friends is nuclear destruction or Hydrogen destruction at best.

Maybe that will be it for now, at least. I hope this gives a clearer vision and picture that America is babylon, and babylon is a nation in modern day times, It is not the Vatican, though the papacy is a false religion and possibly the vehicle from which the false prophet shall arise from. However, the beast, 666 political leader shall come from babylon, America, the harlot of harlots. We will maybe continue later with Babylon the mountain, the burning mountain.

You can argue as much as you like, I find some of it amusing to read, but the fact is, that whatever is not of God, it will not stand.
Just look around yourselves and determine what in your life is of God and which part is distracting you from Him?

God will WIN!
For a doomsayer that is the best possible outcome, would it not?

Gideon,

I find nothing amusing about the Word of God. Strangely and coincidently the Bilble says the people of babylon would say such in their heart.Here is the proof.


Isaiah 57:7
And thou saidst, I shall be a lady for ever: [so] that thou didst not lay these [things] to thy heart, neither didst remember the latter end of it.

Revelation 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.


You see the heart of Babylon is its citizens that have the attitude that God is blind to her sins and God is blind to their Idolatry of her. For God has raised up one glorious image of himself. It is not America and the American way of life, it is not the statue of liberty (lady liberty), and all the riches and corruption that go along with the american way of life. Those that believe so have usually, have never been to a foreign country. Nor is it the independent fundamentalist misguided and corrupted movemovents. The image is the image of himself in His word, His eternal fire, and His Son. That is the image I serve and do my best to recognize, and I do my best not let this idolatrous nation get the best of me, ever. You evidently cling to the idolatry of the statue liberty, the babylonian goddess Ishtar, the goddess of freedom and liberty, the whore of whores and mother of harlots made by the mason of France practicing ancient dreuidic, babylonian mystery religions. There is nothing amusing about end times prophecies. Just sit back and watch the show and see your so called freedoms become naught. I find that statement rather disturbing and arrogant. For the end times will bring tribulations such not seen by any man, ever. Guess what, americans are not exempt. As a matter of fact, we will most likely see the persecution of great degree first, as everything starts here, music, Hollywood, corruption, political influences, pornography, sorceries, and drug abuses. Persecution of Jews and Christians on a grand organized scale will most likely originate here. Do not forget, we have already murdered about 80,000,000 saint innocent babies. I guess they do not count for idolators that worship an american facist government.

These are the wealthy people that run the earth and this is your america.


http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-82095917705734983

Notice George H. W. Bush Senior in Skull and bones, an ancient German, Natzi secret Society at Harvard U.

http://www.nouvelordremondial.cc/wp-conten...rge_bush_sr.jpg

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=htt...l%3Den%26sa%3DN

The theory put forth above is one of the many "conspiracy" theologies floating around today. It is possible that the USA is the "great city", but it depends upon where we are on the time line of the Lord's planning. Also, the O.T. visions that are being applied in this view are all past and fulfilled. All of them are realated to the neo-Babylonian Empire in the ancient Middle East .... not some literal future Babylon. The term used in Revelation is symbolic and representive of all intransigent humanity, historically and today. There will be a "great city" part of this system of organized human intransigence at the time of the end.

[quote name='Stephen' date='May 11 2008, 09:26 PM' post='183483']
The theory put forth above is one of the many "conspiracy" theologies floating around today. It is possible that the USA is the "great city", but it depends upon where we are on the time line of the Lord's planning. Also, the O.T. visions that are being applied in this view are all past and fulfilled. All of them are realated to the neo-Babylonian Empire in the ancient Middle East .... not some literal future Babylon. The term used in Revelation is symbolic and representive of all intransigent humanity, historically and today. There will be a "great city" part of this system of organized human intransigence at the time of the end.
[/quote


Gideon said,

Asolutely not, these are future prophecies, for the sun and moon have not lost their light yet. Neighther has the stars stop giving light. This will not be so until the destruction of Babylon by neuclear war. How do you explain this prophecy in the old testament.

The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.


Isa 13:2 Lift ye up a banner upon the high mountain, exalt the voice unto them, shake the hand, that they may go into the gates of the nobles.


Isa 13:3 I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, [even] them that rejoice in my highness.


Isa 13:4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.


Isa 13:5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, [even] the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.


Isa 13:6 ¶ Howl ye; for the day of the LORD [is] at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isa 13:7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:


Isa 13:8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces [shall be as] flames.


Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.



But it comes as no surprise to me. Men's hearts especially pastor's hearts in America shall be blind and darkened to the reality of prophecy.


For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here [is] Christ, or there; believe [it] not.


Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.


Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] in the secret chambers; believe [it] not.


Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.


Mat 24:29 ¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



How many bible verses do you need?


The city of confusion is broken down: every house is shut up, that no man may come in.

Isa 24:11 [There is] a crying for wine in the streets; all joy is darkened, the mirth of the land is gone.


Isa 24:12 In the city is left desolation, and the gate is smitten with destruction.


Isa 24:13 When thus it shall be in the midst of the land among the people, [there shall be] as the shaking of an olive tree, [and] as the gleaning grapes when the vintage is done.


Isa 24:14 ¶ They shall lift up their voice, they shall sing for the majesty of the LORD, they shall cry aloud from the sea.


Isa 24:15 Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, [even] the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.


Isa 24:16 From the uttermost part of the earth have we heard songs, [even] glory to the righteous. But I said, My leanness, my leanness, woe unto me! the treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously; yea, the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously.


Isa 24:17 Fear, and the pit, and the snare, [are] upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.


Isa 24:18 And it shall come to pass, [that] he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.


Isa 24:19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.


Isa 24:20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.


Isa 24:21 ¶ And it shall come to pass in that day, [that] the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones [that are] on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22 And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


Isa 24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

I suppose this is old testament fullfilled also, not so.


And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.


Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

Joe 2:32 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.


This attitude is exactly what angers God and causes Him to bring swift destruction to a nation of idol worshipers. A stiffed neck nation of blind guides that do not want to admit their nation is a Harlot with God's eternal judgement pending on her will ultimately come to its destructive end

Certain passages from Isaiah are about the time of the end, but most of the prophet's visions relate to the invasion of the Assyrians against Israel in the ancient past. Jeremiah's visions are also structured in the same fashion with most of the content relating to the invasions of neo-Babylon against Israel in the ancient past. One has to make the correct identification of the passages of these scriptures in order to understand the visions. Many of your selections are past fulfilled prophecy and they do not apply to the time of the end at all. You might as well get the picture squared away and rendered correctly. The projections in the Lord's discourse are an entirely different matter and all of them are about the time of the end which is still pending. The problem I have with "conspiracy" theory, which is also part of your view, is that it has many aberrant twists and speculations that are not scripturally based at all. Many of these theories contain racial and political bias and the implications made regarding certain groups and organizations are all conjecture. These ideas are then inserted into the end time exegesis presented by the visions of the Bible prophets.