Revelation likens the Great Whore to a "city". Not to a "nation".

Revelation doesn't say Great Whore has to be a seaport, nor does the Rev say the GW has to be a capital of music.

The Great Whore does have great influence on trade. Which is one reason nearly all the nations of the world send an ambassador to the Vatican.

I routinely watch world news. Murders and atrocities occur all over the world.

Just this morning a mob of Kenyans burned to death 11 people the mob accused of being "witches and warlocks" [most of the victims were elderly women]. Not an American in sight for bigots like you to blame.

Gideon7620 said,

Sorry to say,
Mr. Prewett, I will not waste much time trying to convince you. But you are obviously not informed. America has at least 10 times or more murder and crime than any nation in the world, that is right at least 10 times more, so get your facts straight before you come blasting off at the mouth in an awkward attempt to sway those seeking the truth. As far as bigotry in America, it is hidden and covered up, especially in small, numerous rural communities in America, so sorry again your ignorance is obvious here too. This can only mean that the pastors have spread false doctrines and have done a miserable job with regards to their churches and our communities, not all pastors but certainly most. This fact, that America the nation of immigrants is Babylon, (the nation of many tongues, New York City, the capital and hub of trade and commerce of the world, NYC the place where the kings of the earth meet to discuss trade and place trade embargos on nations and to lift them The UN Security Counsil as they call it, and seas of various peoples), the fact that you can not see this is far beyond the reach of your comprehension. We do not even have to look at all the other councils and occult activities our leaders participate in to come to that conclusion. The hardness of the heart and one's ignorance is seen in ones actions and words. Whether you are in a state of denial or just plainly misinformed is beyond me. I think it is both. That is the way it usually goes.

American "Christians" have been taught false doctrine by many local churches. The two main false doctrines are God bless America, and the rapture. Interestingly enough, both are dependent upon one another in order for these fallacies to have any convincing affect. When one studies both we see a post trib rapture, and an America that will grow mad in the end times and slaughter hundreds of millions world wide, before her destruction by the beast and 10 nations. She is already mad, murdering 10's of millions of babies, homosexuality is rampent as seen on the news and in Hollywood daily, our crime and murder statistics are at least 10 times higher than any of the worst nations in the world. Mr. Prewett you must live in some ivory tower and never have yourself placed in the path of harms way, by simply living your every day life in America. So it is quite frankly you that is confused. I suggest you sit down, have some iced tea and listen to the second portion, The Post Tribulation Rapture. Then you will either be more confused or see the light of the truth.

Even if you just use Revelation without the Old Testament you would still see Babylon is a City, State, Nation, like no other in human history. But there are too many prophecies in the Old Testament that are being and have not been fulfilled for us not to use the old. There are too many prophecies in Daniel that are the same as we see in Revelations, the seven heads or mountains for instance, that most definately make Babylon the 7th, final, nation, world empire. It, the Old Testament gives a more descript depiction of the Whore that has led all nations mad as herself, even the end times Babylon. We cetainly see the end times Babylon, nation in the Old Testament, without a doubt and in the NT.

I was reviewing this commentary:
QUOTE (Gideon7620)
There are too many prophecies in Daniel that are the same as we see in Revelations, the seven heads or mountains for instance, that most definately make Babylon the 7th, final, nation, world empire. It, the Old Testament gives a more descript depiction of the Whore that has led all nations mad as herself, even the end times Babylon. We cetainly see the end times Babylon, nation in the Old Testament, without a doubt.

Do you see any relationship to the seven heads/mountains/Babylon the 7th, to the
following references to seven ?

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?s...19211&st=30 Native American/first Peoples : Ojibwa, Amerindians From Israel ? New Evidence ?


Click here: Seven fires prophecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_fires

This is how close related the Ojbwa/Seven fires prophecy is a prophecy originally taught among the practitioners of Midewiwin and mirrors the bitter waters of Revelation scripture.

Just like Seven angels are then seen standing before God to whom were given seven
trumpets, the Midewiwin tell of the Seven fires, which includes the term bitter waters.

http://www.ccel.org/contrib/exec_outlines/rev/rev_08.htm
The third trumpet - A great burning star named Wormwood falls on a
third of the rivers and springs of water; a third of the waters
became wormwood (a bitter wood) and many men died from the bitter
water (10-11).


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_fires

Seven fires
Originally, the prophecies were given by eight prophets in seven different time periods. According to oral tradition, all Algonquian nations located in the Wabanaki heard the first prophet. The remaining seven prophets appeared before and were recorded by the Anishinaabeg. A prophecy of each of these seven periods were then called a "fire". The teachings of the Seven fires prophecy also state that when the world has been befouled and the waters turned bitter by disrespect, human beings will have two options to chose from, materialism or spirituality. If they chose spirituality, they will survive, but if they chose materialism, it will be the end of it.







Seventh
This section requires expansion.

The Seventh Prophet that came to the people long ago was said to be different from the other prophets. This prophet was describes as "young and had a strange light in his eyes" and said:

“ In the time of the Seventh Fire New People will emerge. They will retrace their steps to find what was left by the trail. Their steps will take them to the Elders who they will ask to guide them on their journey. But many of the Elders will have fallen asleep. They will awaken to this new time with nothing to offer. Some of the Elders will be silent because no one will ask anything of them. The New People will have to be careful in how they approach the Elders. The task of the New People will not be easy.
If the New People will remain strong in their quest the Water Drum of the Midewiwin Lodge will again sound its voice. There will be a rebirth of the Anishinabe Nation and a rekindling of old flames. The Sacred Fire will again be lit.

It is this time that the light skinned race will be given a choice between two roads. If they choose the right road, then the Seventh Fire will light the Eighth and final Fire, an eternal fire of peace, love brotherhood and sisterhood. If the light skinned race makes the wrong choice of the roads, then the destruction which they brought with them in coming to this country will come back at them and cause much suffering and death to all the Earth's people.[1]
”


[] Eighth fire
The Eighth Fire is a term arising from the teachings of the Seven fires prophecy. The teaching suggests that if enough people—of all colors and faiths—turn from materialism and instead choose a path of respect, wisdom and spirituality, environmental and social catastrophe can be avoided, and an era of spiritual illumination will unfold.

Gideon7620 said,

Absolutely, there is a similarity. I find many ancient Indian legends and prophecies are very similar to those of Judaism and Christianity. Even the coming or return of most Native American's Great Spirit, God, is similar to that of the Judeo-Christian prophecies, most Americans are unaware if this though. Certainly the Indians had to of come and migrate from somewhere and there is some proof that many were Jews, from Levi, etc. God did not create man in the Americas, they simply migrated here. God created man in Eden, today's Iraq, in an area known as Mesopotamia, or the Fertile Crescent. We know for a fact in 1492 many Sephardic Jews were forced to worship Catholicism, die, or exile from Spain, most left. These were primarily from the tribe of Levi. However many other Jews came to the Americas before anyone else, we know many of them as Native Americans, The Maya's and Aztecs. Most were Egyptian exiles, that is where they got there engineering skills from to build the Great Pyramids. Here in Mexico and Central America, they perfected them, as these pyramids dwarf the technical advancements of the ones in Giza.

We can come to reasonable conclusion without Indian prophecies; though I do not lay any criticism to them, as many are similar to the Judeo-Christian ones. You are absolutely correct in that those that chose the material world of Babylon will suffer eternal damnation, the mark of the Beast. Those that chose to serve and follow their God's command may suffer physical death, but they will have eternal life. Some will escape the clutches of the little brother, the destroyers of the earth, primarily the wasps, the wrathful one, the son of perdition, and these that escape will not suffer their bodies to be destroyed. They will rapture with the dead in Christ.

Here's how to be saved
Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved:

And, here we see, everyone who ever existed will meet those requirements, lol.
Php 2:9 Wherefore also God highly exalted him, and gave unto him the name which is above every name;
Php 2:10 that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,
Php 2:11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Looks like everyone will be saved. It's only some of us who believe without seeing, thus are the ones who will rule and inherit the kingdom. Everyone else? the ruled over. They will believe when they see it (Him).

Gideon7620 said,


I am not sure what you are saying, but it seems vague. The Bible must be taken in its entire context. We can not just pull verses out and think that is what they mean, nor can we assign our own meanings to them. For instance we can not take the verse in Revelation that refers to the whore Babylon as a city and say, oh she is a city only. There are hundreds of verses, when taken in complete context that show differently. With these she is many things: the mother of free expression and liberty, the end times greatest naiton, the nation with many waters, the nation with many large pastures and fields, the nation of timber and wood, the mother of music, the mother of spices, the mother of world trade (imports and exports), the mother of immigrants, the mother of fornication, the mother of free and blocked trade, the mother of international diplomacy, the mother of wealth, the mother of farms, the mother of industry, the mother of technology, the mother of aviation, the mother of space exploration, the mother of you name it, she is the mother of abominations.

Likewise we can not say everyone is going to heaven just because they see Jesus and confess he is Lord, that is not true. For we see in Revelation a classic verse that demonstrates this. It is considered by most theologians as the most classic verse to demonstrate this.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Not everyone will go to heaven; some will join Satan in the eternal flames of Hell for relying on their self righteous deeds for deliverance. Most certainly, those that are part of what is known as the second resurrection shall be cast eternally into the lake of fire. That is why we read blessed, and holy are those that have part in the first resurrection, over which dead hath no power. The first resurrection takes place during the rapture, when the dead in Christ rise first, as seen in I, and II Thessalonians. The second one takes place at the Great White Throne Judgment; these will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

We see clearly here that the rapture is the first resurrection. However, when the thousand year reign of Christ is over, the other dead shall rise to eternal damnation and shall be cast into the lake of fire. They relied on their works, so shall they be judged accordingly, according to their works. Naturally, they will confess Jesus is Lord before being cast to the lake of fire. True believers already have confessed Jesus is Lord at the time of their repentance, regeneration, imputation, and sanctification, when Jesus' blood was place on them and their sin was placed on Jesus.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea.


Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So again we see these verses pick up. It really is not too difficult to understand. You must know its chronological order, first. We know the rapture is first, right before the 1000 year reign. This is even more proof. Then after the 1000 years, the other unsaved dead rise out of death, and hell or Hades only to confess Jesus is Lord and be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Hades or Hell is only a temporary holding place for the eternally damned.


And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Not saying everyone will be going to "Heaven." I'm saying it appears that everyone will be saved. But only those who believe without seeing will be the ones ruling over the nations and inherit the Kingdom of God. Which by the way where is it going to be? On earth. God the Father and Jesus will be ruling on earth as we see the end state in Revelations. And, they will rule over the...? Nations.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto myself.

Notice He says All men. Only Some will inherit the Kingdom, everyone else, they will be ruled over.

Gideon7620 said,

Well not all men will be saved either. As I see it, if I think you are saying what I believe you are saying, just because someone sees Jesus does not mean they will inherit eternal life. The Pharisees saw Christ and rejected him; they died and are in Hell. Pharaoh saw God do many mighty works and rejected God. He is in Hell. We see that during the Great White Throne Judgment, when the second resurrection takes place, all those will see Jesus, confess he is Lord, and be cast eternally into the Lake of Fire to inherit God's Judgment, because of their self willed ness to rely on their works. That is why they are judged every man in this second resurrection, according to their works. Their works do not suffice the payment for their sins, only the blood of the eternal savior, slain from the foundation of the world can pay for the sins of the repented ones. Since those that do not repent rejected the Word of God, put trust in themselves, had no faith in God and in the last time rejected the Savior, they shall be damned eternally. There is no way out for them. A great chasm is fixed that can not be crossed in any way. Christ can grant eternal life only to those only would accept God's grace and faith. Where does that leave those that reject God's way, eternally damned? He will not save the self righteous rejecters that trample on the word and his blood.

The city is the nucleus of a kingdom, city state, country, nation, empire. This human orgsnization is essential to the structuring of any great nation and has the nesting of human intransignce toward the Lord. Its very nature produces all of the self direction, seductions, and deceptions that stand in the way of the necessary relationship between the Creator and the created. This lost matrix of human decadence and potential destruction of the human spirit contains the core seeds of ultimate failure without the Lord's providence and direction. This is the road that humanity has taken and the results has been to slay all that have been slain upon the earth in one way or another ..... count them. Greed, vice, crime, murder, self actualization without divine guidance, materialism, false religion, temporal ambitions, aggressive warfare, conquering, genocide, political control, graft, inhuman behavior, etc.. This is this condition of lost humanity.

The "woman" is the unfaithful and adultrous condition of lost humanity nested in the cities of the nations that has separated from the Lord. This setting has a history and an end time condition that the Lord will not continue to tolerate and His objective will be to destroy her in part and totally during His coming judgment period. This condition is symbolized as "Mystery Babylon the Great" with a global presence at the time of the end. She will also have a "great city" part that is interconnected [a united kingdom or nation] that is the core of the financial, economic wealth, trade, commerce, business, and market place of the world. All core cities of the nations of the world will be connected and dependent upon this "great city's" presence. The destruction of this "great city" [nation, kingdom, mountain] will have enormous effects upon the entire planet. The Lord will destroy it through Satan's beast [little horn] and the 10 other kings in one day. He will then proceed to ultimately bring down all of the cities of the nations by the end of His coming judgment period.

City building began shortly after the flood.

Gen 11:1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
Gen 11:2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
Gen 11:3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
Gen 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top [may reach] unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
Gen 11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people [is] one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
Gen 11:7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
Gen 11:8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
Gen 11:9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

The first kings and their cities:

Nimrod builds Babel in the Land of Shinar (southern Iraq)
Gen 10:8 And Cush begat Nimrod (descendant of Ham): he began to be a mighty one in the earth.
Gen 10:9 He was a mighty hunter before the LORD: wherefore it is said, Even as Nimrod the mighty hunter before the LORD.
Gen 10:10 And the beginning of his kingdom was Babel (Babylonian), and Erech, and Accad, and Calneh, in the land of Shinar.

Asshur builds Nineveh in the Land of Magog (northern Iraq)
Gen 10:11 Out of that land went forth Asshur (descendant of Shem), and builded Nineveh (Assyrian), and the city Rehoboth, and Calah,
Gen 10:12 And Resen between Nineveh and Calah: the same [is] a great city.

The last great city in the world and all of the other cities at the time of the end:

Destruction of the great city early in the tribulation (see Revelation 8:7-12)
Rev 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
Rev 18:5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
Rev 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong [is] the Lord God who judgeth her.
Rev 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:11 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
Rev 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
Rev 18:13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Rev 18:14 And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
Rev 18:16 And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
Rev 18:17 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
Rev 18:18 And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What [city is] like unto this great city!
Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, [thou] heaven, and [ye] holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 18:21 And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast [it] into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.
Rev 18:22 And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft [he be], shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Destruction of the land area where the great city once stood and of all of the other cities in the world during the battle of Armageddon (see Ezekiel 38:19-20). The Lord revisits the great city's continent (double unto her double) and the rest of the cities in the world with the greatest earthquake since humans have been on the earth.

Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, [and] so great.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Joh 12:47 for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Jesus came to Save the world. Will He succeed?

Excellent analisis Stephen,

For Babylon spreads her materialistic presence and influence world wide. How are thout fallen Oh Lucifer which did weaken the nations. His final blasphemous I will, will be, I will be like the most high, The Obomination, that makes the earthly kingdoms desolate of any lawful order.

Gideon7620 said,

We must judge rightly using the word of God so that we may discern right from wrong. We are commanded to do so. Common sense tells one not to let his child play in the road. Jesus has already saved the world and he shall reign on earth, eternally. We shall reign with him as kings and priests. The earth shall endure forever. His salvation is expressed in part through the power of His resurrection, and his return. When Satan is cast into the lake of fire for all eternity, then shall the fulfillment of His kingdom be complete. By faith we know he has had a triumphant victory against sin, Satan, death, and Hell. His success is not measured by how many souls accept his saving grace, but is measured in the power of his resurrection, and in those that have accepted his grace and will continue to accept his grace. Fortunately, I am one, as are many. Those that do not accept his grace are failures to themselves, for not admitting their sin, they are falilures for not wanting to see their need for a savior, and these shall not see the kingdom of heaven. Not every man that says to me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but he that doeth the will of my father, Jesus admonished us. The prophets of old did the will of the father, by faith, as we see in Hebrews chapter 12.

Jesus has already beaten Satan. His resurrectioin from the dead accomplished that. The victory has already been won, it is only time for the troops to come home now, whether it be through the rapture of the living or through the rapture of the dead.

Acts 26:18


King James Bible
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

JP wrote:

Revelation likens the Great Whore to a "city". Not to a "nation".

Revelation doesn't say Great Whore has to be a seaport, nor does the Rev say the GW has to be a capital of music.

The Great Whore does have great influence on trade. Which is one reason nearly all the nations of the world send an ambassador to the Vatican.

I routinely watch world news. Murders and atrocities occur all over the world.

Just this morning a mob of Kenyans burned to death 11 people the mob accused of being "witches and warlocks" [most of the victims were elderly women]. Not an American in sight for bigots like you to blame.
[/quote]


Gideon7620 said,

Sorry to say,

Mr. Prewett, I will not waste much time trying to convince you. But you are obviously not informed.

America has at least 10 times or more murder and crime than any nation in the world,

that is right at least 10 times more,

so get your facts straight before you come blasting off at the mouth in an awkward attempt to sway those seeking the truth. ...................
end Gideon 7620 quote


You say" America has 10 times or more murder and crime than any nation in the world,"..

Your above has to be among the stupidest lies I've seen posted in this forum.

Gideon7620 said,

Sorry to say,

Mr. Prewett, I will not waste much time trying to convince you. But you are obviously not informed.

America has at least 10 times or more murder and crime than any nation in the world,

that is right at least 10 times more,

so get your facts straight before you come blasting off at the mouth in an awkward attempt to sway those seeking the truth. ...................
end Gideon 7620


Mr Pruit said,


You say" America has 10 times or more murder and crime than any nation in the world,"..

Your above has to be among the stupidest lies I've seen posted in this forum.



Gideon7620 said,

Sorry to say,
Mr. Prewett, I will not waste much time trying to convince you. But you are obviously not informed. America has at least 10 times or more murder and crime than any nation in the world, that is right at least 10 times more, so get your facts straight before you come blasting off at the mouth in an awkward attempt to sway those seeking the truth. As far as bigotry in America, it is hidden and covered up, especially in small, numerous rural communities in America, so sorry again your ignorance is obvious here too. This can only mean that the pastors have spread false doctrines and have done a miserable job with regards to their churches and our communities, not all pastors but certainly most. This fact, that America the nation of immigrants is Babylon, (the nation of many tongues, New York City, the capital and hub of trade and commerce of the world, NYC the place where the kings of the earth meet to discuss trade and place trade embargos on nations and to lift them The UN Security Counsil as they call it, and seas of various peoples), the fact that you can not see this is far beyond the reach of your comprehension. We do not even have to look at all the other councils and occult activities our leaders participate in to come to that conclusion. The hardness of the heart and one's ignorance is seen in ones actions and words. Whether you are in a state of denial or just plainly misinformed is beyond me. I think it is both. That is the way it usually goes.

American "Christians" have been taught false doctrine by many local churches. The two main false doctrines are God bless America, and the rapture. Interestingly enough, both are dependent upon one another in order for these fallacies to have any convincing affect. When one studies both we see a post trib rapture, and an America that will grow mad in the end times and slaughter hundreds of millions world wide, before her destruction by the beast and 10 nations. She is already mad, murdering 10's of millions of babies, homosexuality is rampent as seen on the news and in Hollywood daily, our crime and murder statistics are at least 10 times higher than any of the worst nations in the world. Mr. Prewett you must live in some ivory tower and never have yourself placed in the path of harms way, by simply living your every day life in America. So it is quite frankly you that is confused. I suggest you sit down, have some iced tea and listen to the second portion, The Post Tribulation Rapture. Then you will either be more confused or see the light of the truth.

Even if you just use Revelation without the Old Testament you would still see Babylon is a City, State, Nation, like no other in human history. But there are too many prophecies in the Old Testament that are being and have not been fulfilled for us not to use the old. There are too many prophecies in Daniel that are the same as we see in Revelations, the seven heads or mountains for instance, that most definately make Babylon the 7th, final, nation, world empire. It, the Old Testament gives a more descript depiction of the Whore that has led all nations mad as herself, even the end times Babylon. We cetainly see the end times Babylon, nation in the Old Testament, without a doubt and in the NT.

This post has been edited by Gideon7620: May 22 2008, 12:53 PM

Gideon7620 also Said,

Yes, the fact that You are ignorant of America's crime statistics proves two things. First of all, you are probably a conservative preacher that is about 55 to 65 years in age living in some ivory tower. You also probably have your congregation slaving themselves for your so called cause of Christ while their families go to the devil because of neglegence, cause by excessive church activity. Secondly, as I stated before, get your facts straight; I repeat, noone, no country in the world has as high as a crime rate and murder rate as America. America's is ten times worse than the worst. Since you threw out the race card earlier, no other country in the world discriminates against blacks and hispanics in our illegal justice system as America. These are facts, evidently that you find hard to comprehend and impossible to face the reality of. Your igonorance in these statistical facts shows how stupid you are Mr. Pruit, and you still chose to blast off at the mouth. It is very evident, you do not know your facts about crime statistics in America, Europe, China, Russia, and the Middle East, etc. So I must say, you have honestly, and truthfully made the stupidest statement I have ever heard on any forum; it seems par for the coarse of conservative, independent, fundamentalists, a group of people that oftimes blast off at the mouth without knowing the true facts. Prove me wrong.

Here are a few facts for you.


Crime has been a long-standing concern in the United States, with relatively high rates at the beginning of the 20th century when compared to parts of Western Europe. In 1916, 198 homicides were recorded in Chicago, a city of slightly over 2 million at the time. This level of crime was not exceptional when compared to other American cities such as New York City, but was much higher relative to European cities, such as London, which then had three times the population but recorded only 45 homicides in the same year.[12]

Crime in the United States has fluctuated considerably over the course of the last half-century, rising significantly in the late 1960s and 1970s, peaking in the 1980s

Many areas of this filthy world don't even keep records or routinely transmit reports of rampant ongoing crime.

Many areas of this corrupted world don't even have laws against what would be "crime" in USA.

[such as parts of Africa where slavery is currently commonly practiced]

Your contention that America has "10 times the crime of any other nation" is plainly in gross error.

The only people who will give you any respect are people as blindly bigoted as yourself.

Your opinion isn't worth a bucket of spit.

Gideon7620 said,

No, I take that back, America is even worse than I previously quoted, as it has 20 more violent crimes than some modern nations. I find it Amazing that so many Bible thumping, twilight zone Preachers, and their flocks continue in a state of denial. These nations are Great Britain, China, Germany, Italy, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Eqypt, any state of the Eropean Union, Etc. These all keep very good record, especially Britain, even better than the US.

Just one "for instance".

For instance, consider Saudi Arabia.

When [and it does happen] a Saudi confesses his/her conversion to faith in Jesus Christ,

the Christian is executed.

In S.A., The new Christian is considered to have committed the "crime".

In S.A. The murder of the Christian is NOT considered to be a "crime" and is not reported as a crime.

USA has its share of all kinds of crime. But your "20 times as much" is not true.

How much does it boost your ego to point the finger at America?
For I will write it on your tab and it will be remembered.

Gideon7620 said,


Wait till America systematically begins to murder Christians on mass scales, you aint seen nothing yet. Sorry to pop your bubble the Saudis do not murder Christians. I have family that visits there regularly.

Do not tell me, just because that antichrist, Bush is in Israel trying to form a peace treaty that America the whore loves Israel? Wake up, smell the coffee. Do not be gullible. Christ tells us that the antichrist would make a treaty in Daniel and that he would break it in the middle of the weak. Now, personally, I do not believe Bush is the antichrist, but rather a want to be one. He loves power and thinks he is God's gift to the world as does Dick Chaney. Whether you want to admit it or not Bush is a member of Skull and Bones, a Natzi, high level masonic group that came from Germany to Havard University. They pick out 15 men a year to join and it is Satanically inspired. These men are inbread, made men. The antichrist is going to be far more cunning than that. These guys are armatures compared to him. He will come in peaceably as a man of God, and then he will get really evil and violent in the middle of the weak. America is ready and very near ripe for this personality as we swing more to the right wing. Guess what, he is going to slaughter hundreds of millions of Jews and Christians alike. I guess that means Jesus is not coming anytime soon to take us away from the wrath of Satan; therefore, we will be here to see it.

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Response: yes he's way trickier than Bush but of course all people serve their purpose on the way to the top!

And although I think you have some merit in your US theory, since it is mostly amoral, Scriptures indicate a/c comes out of a small EU country or Revived Roman Empire which would include North America as a supporting division of the 10 world division.

If we examine the EU with it's nice little 12 star flag we can see some clear signs that satan himself is giving us, whether by design or providence of God....EU currency is gaining worldwide popularity and the US appears to be on the verge of a serious economic decline...making it a co conspirator but then all the nations will be guilty and will show up for the main event...

Think worldwide famine and tainted water except in the Glorious Land by the hand of God through His two witnesses and you'll see why EVERY nation will be clamoring to get to little Israel for a drink of water when the fountains of the deep are released and they have 3.5 years of plenty to be followed by horrific persecution from all nations worldwide.

If you are looking for the beast kingdom, it is worldwide with 10 divisions, headed by the EU....7 leaders conform,
3 do not and are slain making the final system of administration 7 world divisions.

There is a reason for the North American Union, South American Union, APEC., African Union, EEU, ........the divisions are about to come to the forefront through calamity and then the enforcement of what the ruling elite like to call, Security, Peace and Prosperity agreements which subjugate your national rights and give you a feeling of saftey while taking away your constitutional rights to due process....

Soon the military combattent will be redefined as religious extremists...and the basis will be the two witnesses of God who will be wreaking havoc on unredeemed man...so satan himself will have a basis via the political process to make this claim that will start the internment camps........

Anyway, I think your feeling about the destruction of America is off. Not that I disagree with the end point, but rather see that perhaps America with it's mighty weapons of warfare will be hastened off the map if one of the three kings that sees the reality of the NEW world order is indeed a fence sitting American Christian President....then a/c will vote for elimination....but will work it under the guise of terrorist attack with nuc's via Russia or an Eastern Nation that may or may not support the action but rather is administrated by a terror network to eliminate the objectors.

This would take out 1/3 of the worlds population in moments.....just as foretold, since retaliation would be immediate and could be water based.

I know the prophecy people want the Gog Magog revolution before it's time but Revelations tells us this is not the time of Jacob's trouble but rather a later event after the millenial Kingdom of Christ Jesus.

Anyway...food for thought. I think that despite the overall corrupt society in America and the fact that many Churches are in full apostacy, we can still look at the world wide scenario and see far greater fallings away in other nations worldwide....I think Europe is down to 2% Church attendance.....and well, the story of Africa, China, Russia and the Middle East is perhaps even more frighteningly low...

To maintain that America is this worldwide shipping giant means we must first avoid looking at the EU which has many ports and is the host site of the RCC and also has a loosely associated Union that the people by and large do not support that was hoisted upon them by it's leaders...this is how it's suppose to happen...it also has small enough countries and a leader based election for EEU president that will soon be extended to 2.5 years....upon final manipulation of the Lisbon Treaty that Ireland threw a cog into not long ago, but looks to be a pressing agenda matter for all concerned.

I think we will find that this will be the only Large Industrial base of Countries, in common union that can bring forth a leader that won't be voted in by election but will rather be nominated by flatteries..which of course is what Daniel proscribes for this a/c person. And although, Bush and the current administration are pushing the treaty platform, this is just a ruse so that people won't see the rise of the a/c to power.....

he of course has others, in the 10 confederated districts do the dirty work so that the needed administrative work is already in place when he comes to power therefore, elimimating a lot of suspicion by the world at large of his motives...because their will be 2 people plainly saying who he is , God's two witnesses, so in order to by step their influence on world opinion, the elevation to power has to be gradual and in the background.

What people don't seem to think about is satan's ability to come upon whomever is unsaved and take possession of them at will for his purposes whether it be internally or externally, he does have this authority and power...

He has no problem going to the white house one day and the kremlim the next, posing totally opposite conclusions in peoples minds as to how to deal with an issue. This is how he causes confusion. He tells/influences different leaders to do different things which work into his plan but ultimately are not beneficial for anyone. He is not limited apart from human resistance through the power of the Holy Spirit and therefore unredeemed man, if in a position he needs to use, will be used, especially if they are into any sort of spiritism which many leaders are...they can come right in then and take full control and the subject won't even know it, because he is actually quite subtle unlike other demonic spirits.

He already knows that 3 leaders will object at the last moment to his plan of world domination. He doesn't know who those 3 are..but God knows who they are....

Anyway, what I'm saying here is the final assension of the a/c will be from a small country state of the EEU..all the nations which will eventually be turned into the 10 world districts will be under international and rule...the a/c himself is probably an indwelt person already but satan himself keeps him on the side line to make his assension to power quite subtle....

Sure, this person is a world figure, but not yet a leading world figure. satan will use other subordinates within the network to move the program to it's final administrative - legal form, both within and without the EU and then when this a/c figure comes to power, he will look like he approved of the current legislative plan but had little influence in bringing it to pass...therefore making him an unlikely candidate for the desolator in order to catch people off guard...

But I tell you one thing, when he calls himself immanuel in the Holy Place..there will be no more confusion by fence sitters because then he's going for broke.....

Recently CNN showed a Pakistani Moslem man, who as an adult moved to the USA.

This man "HONOR KILLED" his daughter because she wanted to divorce

the husband her father previously arranged for her to marry.

The USA state of Georgia deemed this "honor killing" to be a crime.

He killed her due to the Pakistani/Moslem cult brainwashing he endured while growing up.

Should USA [where killing occured] be deemed responsible for this "Honor" killing ?

Or should Pakistani/Moslem culture be held responsible ?

Same stuff occurs all over the Moslem world. Its part and parcel of Moslem "culture".

Bear in mind that "cult" is the heart of "culture"

America is the most sinfully excessive nation in the world. She will soon reap what she has sown. The sin in Saudi Arabia has no comparison to that of America. Truthfully, true the core Christians are persecuted more in America than any other nation. The full affects have just not manifested themselves yet. Slowly laws are being enforced and will continue to be passed. Our public schools are a great testament to that fact. Arabs can praise Allah in the American public sector, just let a Christian try praising Jesus or preaching the Gospel in the public schools and watch the persecution creep up, every time. Sorry to pop your bubble, but the persecution will originate in America, the land of the captives. They are captive to Hollywood's, sinful pop culture, the drug culture, the FDA, Pharmacia, better known as sorcerers, the political circus of misfits, the news media, the contaminated food sources, the big American and British oil companies, and the illuminati as a whole. Some are just ignorant to the facts, or are in a state of denial. If you do not believe this, than you are either ignorant of the facts or brainwashed by a right wing, conservative, neo Nazi want to be Christian movement whose judgment is yet pending the fires of God.

Those pastors that have preached false doctrines, shied away from preaching against America's real sin will be vulnerable to the judgment of the Almighty God when it falls, and it will, in one day, one hour, when sinners have come to their fullness, the hammer of the judgment of God will fall.

When a moslem living in USA does an "honor killing",

do you even consider it a "crime" ?

Do you add it to the list of crimes committed "by America" ?

Everyone is accountable as a PERSON for their crimes.

Gideon 7620 said very true, everyone is accountable for their sin and crimes, as is every nation. Amazingly, sin comes in concentrated pockets as in the past. When such occurs, God brings judgement upon nations or a nation. In our time, nearing the apocolypse, I believe God's judgement will fall on the kings and nations of the earth. Babylon shall be as the opening inauguration for that.

Shortly after the fall of Babylon, the nations gather themselves together to oppose Israel, God's elect, and Christ. This brings destruction, and anialation to the kings and armies of the earth. Their rejection of Christ and failure to heed his statutes shall result in their destruction.

I hope not.

Gideon7620 said once again everyone is accountable for their crimes they have committed against the law of God. God holds us accountable, so therefore we need Christ as a Saviour. The penalty of sin is death. Sin is a very serious crime, So serious it dooms the sinner to a Christless eternity in hell. Therefore we are all criminals and accountable for our crimes against God. That is a fact

Here is mystery Babyon

I’m sure that most of you are wondering who I am as I haven’t posted on here very often. I usually just read…as I’ve led a very busy career and home life. However, now that my health is going down hill…rather quickly (have Fibromyalgia and Lupus) I’ve been hanging out in this forum/website a little more than usual. I certainly don’t mean to sound too presumptuous, but I think that you guys are really off the mark here…(except for “Gideon7620, MessiahisComing, immortality, and I definitely say that with the Love of Christ.

I’ve been studying eschatology since I was 15 years old, and when I ran across this website, I was very skeptical at first too (as you too may be)…as it went against everything that I’d been taught for over 25 years. I’ve since changed my thinking, and I’ve had more of an “open mind” you might say, towards interpretation of the scriptures. I know one thing for sure. If you don’t know Greek (Roman), Hebrew, and Arabic language thoroughly, then you’re going to have an extremely difficult time comprehending much of the Bible, esp. with specific terms. I learned this concept years ago from well-educated pastors who have studied these languages. It’s as if you’re suddenly reading a whole new translation of the Bible…different than anything you’ve ever read/heard. I think it’s quite exciting. Another pastor who comes to mind that does a lot of teaching on Jewish culture and Hebrew/Greek language is Perry Stone. Some of his sermons absolutely amaze me!! He has “revealed” so many new insights into scriptures that I know I must have read a thousand times before…..but suddenly, with new meaning…as if the veil has been lifted off of the basket of knowledge and truth. If you’ve never read/heard his teachings, please visit his website as well: http://www.voe.org/

First, let me start by quoting directly from R. A. Coombes’ website: http://www.americathebabylon.com/



“So what is America's future?
America has defeated the lands of ancient Babylon known as Iraq. This makes America the latest world power to conquer "Babylon" and from a prophetical standpoint, America holds title to Babylon and thus America inherits the "Mystery Babylon" title. But that's only the tip of the "Mystery Babylon" iceberg that includes DOZENS of other PROOFS from the scriptures that all points to and proves that America is the only answer as to who or what is Mystery Babylon.
But there's still more to consider:
A Day of Reckoning with God. If you thought September 11th 2001 was bad consider this...
... Divine angelic forces are standing ready to fulfill the ancient written Biblical Prophecies with a sudden attack upon "America, The Babylon."

You really need to know what has been predicted and be prepared.
Did you know that there are Biblical prophecies yet to be fulfilled which predict that just before the rise of the Antichrist and before the return of Jesus Christ, a Super-Power nation will exist called Mystery Babylon. The Biblical Prophecies indicate that this Super-Power nation will set up an alliance with Satan and his cosmic rebel angelic forces and thus allow them to have an "observation base" within that nation. The prophecies use a symbolic "code-name" for this end- of- the-era Super Power nation. The symbolic code name is: "Mystery Babylon." Today, we know this nation as the United States of America.”
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Second, let me list just a FEW of the MANY descriptions of Mystery (Future) Babylon: --directly quoted from the website:
http://www.americathebabylon.com/exerpts.shtml
an exerpt from the book, America, The Babylon, written by R. A. Coombes, and based mostly on the following books / chapters: Isaiah 13, 14, 18, 47 * 48: Jeremiah 50 & 51’ Revelation 17, 18 & 19:

“#1. The Jewish Population Issue
#2. The chief city of Mystery Babylon is a "DEEP WATER PORT CITY"!!!
#3. It is the KEY Commercial Nation and Engine of Wealth for the World’s Economy.
#4. Leading center of imports and consumption.
#5. She is also a manufacturing nation
#6. Center for Merchandising and Marketing
#7. Known as the World’s "policeman"
#8. Known for "showing the flag" or "gunboat diplomacy"
#9. Sensual, Materialistic lifestyle
#10. Intoxicating high-society lifestyle as a world example to emulate
#11. Elegant, Sumptuous lifestyle
#12. Noted for its bright gaudy-colored lights and nightlife with round the-clock partying.
#13. Noted for its Drugs and Drug use
#14. A land of immigrants
#15. Land of Rebels in its birth
#16. Land of Agriculture (when was the last time you saw wheat combines and corn-pickers harvesting crops in Vatican City? How about Hog farming? A cattle ranch?
#17. Described as a "Land" of many waters. "Land" is a term designating a nation not a city and not an organization or church.
#18. Where the world’s leaders "stream" to meet (Jer 51:44 -- where they all come at once to get together on a regular basis... also Rev. 17:18)
#19. Last of the Super powers
#20. Defenses reach up to Outer Space
#21. AND LAST BUT BY NO MEANS THE LEAST… THE MOST LITERAL OF ALL: --A populated city named Babylon with deepwater port facilities and the city is considered the "chief city" or most important city of the nation. This is how people of the first century AD referred to a nation, by its chief city.
Finally, we've not really included it but you notice the references to "Defenses that 'mount up' into the heavens (or space). Plus the notes about Her Navy performing "showing the flag" exercises. Then of course there are the references to her armies and soldiers. The Vatican has no standing Armies. Yet just another of the many aspects that rule out the theory that the Roman Catholic Church is "Mystery Babylon."
In the next section we present much more evidence showing the background and heritage of the Statue of Liberty. We present the ironclad proof that the sculptor of this statue designed her to be his rendering of the goddess Ishtar, known as the goddess of freedom and liberty. We will assert that Revelation 17: 9 is speaking specifically of the Statue and her crown of 7 spikes. Those 7 spikes flash the occult enlightenment of the sun god Utu upon each of the 7 "hora"… or large landmasses… which is what the root word of "hora" actually means and not mountains. You will want to read that chapter carefully because the behind-the-scenes facts of the Statue of Li