Most of us agree that we are living in the last days.......I am a pre-trib believer.................Mid and post trib believe that, that the rapture, happens at a time other than pre-trib.........So I present a question to them....Based on the following scenerio, please explain why you believe that this scenerio as described below,......cannot happen. Describe a scenerio based on current conditions, and how it is that you believe that these conditions will result leading to Daniel 9;27.................................I am very curious to what your reply will be. The main focus is the final status of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount Issue.......................................................benny ........................................At this moment,world powers are wanting to negotiate the final status of Jerusalem,....To do this, the status of the Temple Mount issue must be included!....Lets look at the present situation going on at this moment....The A.O.C. thru the United Nations is rising to power' which will lead to a one world church, which I think that we can all agree with, but is not yet in complete full swing. We know that a false prophet is to arise that will call fire out of the sky, which will deceive many. Think about it......once the rapture comes to pass ....a lot of people are going to get religious overnight, and when the false prophet performs his deceiving miracles.....it will place the false church into full swing.The purpose of this coming false prophet is to direct all worship towards the anti-christ.With the event of the rapture, and the deceiving miracles from the false prophet, in combination, of the prophecy of Isaiah 17;1....that may happen just shortly before or after the rapture........The arab nations would agree to anything that the ac would suggest pertaining to the jews building the third temple.Considering that the world powers are wanting to deal with the status of Jerusalem,and that the Iranian nuclear crisses including the involvement of Syria is presently before our eyes, strongly indicates that the ac is about to step onto the world stage......which to the pre-trib believer tells us that the rapture is breathtakenly near.......WE are now wittnessing the moment of truth, and we have not long to wait...................benny

[quote name='benny balerio' date='Jan 16 2007, 10:41 AM' post='99089']
Most of us agree that we are living in the last days.......I am a pre-trib believer.................Mid and post trib believe that, that the rapture, happens at a time other than pre-trib.........So I present a question to them....Based on the following scenerio, please explain why you believe that this scenerio as described below,......cannot happen. Describe a scenerio based on current conditions, and how it is that you believe that these conditions will result leading to Daniel 9;27.................................I am very curious to what your reply will be. The main focus is the final status of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount Issue.......................................................benny ........................................At this moment,world powers are wanting to negotiate the final status of Jerusalem,....To do this, the status of the Temple Mount issue must be included!....Lets look at the present situation going on at this moment....The A.O.C. thru the United Nations is rising to power' which will lead to a one world church, which I think that we can all agree with, but is not yet in complete full swing. We know that a false prophet is to arise that will call fire out of the sky, which will deceive many. Think about it......once the rapture comes to pass ....a lot of people are going to get religious overnight, and when the false prophet performs his deceiving miracles.....it will place the false church into full swing.The purpose of this coming false prophet is to direct all worship towards the anti-christ.With the event of the rapture, and the deceiving miracles from the false prophet, in combination, of the prophecy of Isaiah 17;1....that may happen just shortly before or after the rapture........The arab nations would agree to anything that the ac would suggest pertaining to the jews building the third temple.Considering that the world powers are wanting to deal with the status of Jerusalem,and that the Iranian nuclear crisses including the involvement of Syria is presently before our eyes, strongly indicates that the ac is about to step onto the world stage......which to the pre-trib believer tells us that the rapture is breathtakenly near.......WE are now wittnessing the moment of truth, and we have not long to wait...................benny
[/quote]
Please explain how the appearance of the antichrist and the Dan 9:27 event cannot happen in a post-trib
belief system. Please explain how the pre-trib view justifies the requirement that the church must be snatched away before the antichrist can appear on the world stage.

Dear Excubitor,....I can give you the explaination,.....But I believe that regardless of what that may be, that you are very set in what you believe......But regardless of what you believe in this matter, you are still my brother in Christ Jesus.......The scenerio that I have set before you in the former topic, makes sense, based on current conditions. The following topic will asnswer your question to me....But I do not believe that you will except it, because to do so,it would refute your theory.And because that You may not except it.....then I feel that you will not attempt to answer my original topic....But I hope that you will try,....coming from you I believe that your reply would be very interesting..................................................................................................................................... The Apostasy

One of the primary reasons I think that this errant view gained popularity revolves around the meaning and use of the word "apostasy" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. The passage reads as follows: "Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." Too often interpreters think that the apostasy, which is to come, describes those who depart from the faith at the end of the church age, right before the day of the Lord or seven-year Tribulation. Those who teach this view then contend that since the apostasy occurs at the end of the church age, then the strong delusion that God sends in the Tribulation is upon those apostates or false professors (verses 11-12) whose unbelief took place at the end of the church age. I have at least two major problems with such a view.

The Meaning of "Apostasia"

I believe that there is a greater than 50 per cent possibility that the Greek noun apostasia could refer to the rapture and not departure from the faith as is generally thought. First of all, the core meaning of the verb and noun is "depart." Apostasia can mean physical departure, in which case it would mean "to disappear" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Or, it can be used abstractly, in which case it would mean "to depart from the faith." Since the definite article is used (i.e., the apostasia), it most likely is a reference to a specific event. This would favor the rapture view, since it will be a definite event, unlike departure from the faith, which would be a developing condition. Since the definite noun apostasia does not have a stated direct object, one must be supplied in order to know whether Paul was using the word abstractly or not. Whatever Paul was referring to, he says in verse five the following: "Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things?"

I want to write a more extensive support of this view at a future time, but to suffice it to say that if apostasia refers to a physical departure at the rapture, then the view that one who has heard the Gospel and rejects it before the Rapture will thus be unable to be saved in the Tribulation falls to the ground. Why? Because all other events described in 2 Thessalonians clearly refer to things that will occur during the Tribulation. In order for this view that I oppose to even have a possibility that it could be correct, then apostasia would have to refer to a pretribulational apostasy. This leads us to the other major problem.

The Timing of the Apostasy

If we suppose, for the sake of argument, that apostasia is used abstractly and has the meaning of apostasy it would not necessarily support the view to which I am disagreeing. Why? Because, in context, the apostasy that is being spoken of most likely refers to events associated with the Antichrist during the middle of the Tribulation. Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum explains:

These verses have often been interpreted as teaching that if one hears the gospel before the Rapture and rejects it, he will not have an opportunity to be saved after the Rapture. But this is not the teaching of this passage. The point of no return is the acceptance of the "big lie" of the Antichrist's self-proclaimed deity and the submission to the worship of him by means of taking the mark of the beast. It is only then that the point of no return is actually reached. The option of taking the mark of the beast only begins in the middle of the tribulation. Even the context of this passage shows that it speaks of events that occur in the middle of the tribulation. The worshippers of the Antichrist do so because they are deceived by the Antichrist's power of miracles. They are deceived because they received not the love of the truth. The rejection of the gospel was not what they may have heard before the Rapture but rather the preaching of the 144,000 Jews and the Two Witnesses.

Dr. Fruchtenbaum is correct to link this passage with events in the middle of the Tribulation. This passage lines up with events described in Revelation 12—14. The "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2:11 relates to those who receive the mark of the Beast, called "those who dwell upon the earth" throughout Revelation (3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10 [twice]; 12:12; 13:8, 14 [twice]; 14:6). 2 Thessalonians 2, seen in light of Revelation 12—14, makes it clear that the timing of the act of those who "love not the truth" (2 Thessalonians 2:10).

New Testament Apostasy

To take the view that I do does not mean that I think that the New Testament does not talk frequently about the subject of apostasy. It surely does. There are plenty of passages that do teach of increasing apostasy as the age progresses. Two major passages, among many, that teach an end-time church age apostasy occur in 1 Timothy 4:1-16 and 2 Timothy 3:1—4:8. In fact, 2 Timothy 3:13 declares, "{B}ut evil men and imposters will proceed from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived." But end-time apostasy will not suddenly show up in history right before the Rapture. Instead, Peter wrote a whole Epistle to warn believers about a coming apostasy in his own day (2 Peter). Peter wrote the following warnings:

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves (2:1).

You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness (3:17).



Long before the first century a.d. had come to an end, Jude, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, said that Peter’s prediction of apostasy had come.

Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ (Jude 3-4).

Thus, at least 1,900 years ago, New Testament writers clearly declare that church age apostasy had arrived in their own day. How much more is it true of today! This means that church age apostasy has been with ever since the days of the Apostles themselves. Yet church age apostasy is not stagnant. As the church grows, so does apostasy (2 Timothy 3:13).

Conclusion

I believe Scripture indicates that millions of people will be saved during the Tribulation. We see, in Revelation 7:9, a report of what are the apparent results of the evangelistic efforts of the 144,000 Jewish witnesses.

After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

True, today is the day of salvation and it is never advisable to delay when the Lord is calling through His gospel. However, the New Testament does not teach that an individual reaches an unsavable position until they die with one exception. That exception is when the mark of the beast is issued and received during the second half of the seven-year Tribulation. Those receiving the Antichrist’s mark will be beyond salvation (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12; Revelation 14:9-12). There is an urgency that we all need to have when we preach the gospel, because the time of God’s grace is running out. Nevertheless, we do not need to invent devices that we think will help God out. All they do is confuse people and distort the clear message of Scripture. Jesus Christ could return at any moment and you need to be ready by believing the gospel and serving Him until the Father sends His Son to bring us all home. Maranatha!

..........................................benny

[quote name='benny balerio' date='Jan 15 2007, 08:19 PM' post='99099']

There is an urgency that we all need to have when we preach the gospel, because the time of God’s grace is running out. Nevertheless, we do not need to invent devices that we think will help God out. All they do is confuse people and distort the clear message of Scripture. Jesus Christ could return at any moment and you need to be ready by believing the gospel and serving Him until the Father sends His Son to bring us all home. Maranatha!
[/quote]

Reply:
Your paragraph above is very deceptive, because your whole doctrine is made up by inventions?

You mention the clear message of Scripture but you use assumptions not clear passages period.

You mention you don't need to invent devices to help God out and then your entire doc trine is made up of invented inventions including shifting and changing passages to fit your false doc trine.

Where does the bible say that the 144000 are evangelists? Where does the bible say that the seventieth week is called the tribulation period?

Where does the bible say that the tribulation period is seven years long and that the great tribulation is three and a half years long?

Where does the bible give anyone the right to shift seals, trumpets, and bowls out of order?

[u]What does Christ cut short when he returns and rescues the elect?[/u]

Where does the bible say that God's wrath is active in the first half of the seventieth week, and where does it say that the great tribulation is God's wrath.


Debate me and I promise you that I will not use one assumption for my doctrine and I will use every passage in a cronological order. You can not debate me because you can not defend your doctrine by scriptures alone, you have to use assumptions made up by Ice, La Haye, and a host of other false prophets that are multimillionairs thanks to those who preach their dumb ideas. I have debated some of the top pretribbers and I found them very much secular and had not true love for the word of God.[size=3][b]undefined[/b]

The Three Wraths of the Tribulation Period:
Will the Church survive them?

by Michael G. Mickey

Bible prophecy teaches us there are going to be three forms of supernatural wrath that will come upon the earth during the Tribulation Period, each of which will wreak havoc on the earth and its occupants. First, we'll discuss the three wraths. After that, we'll examine how these three wraths will impact the Church during the Tribulation Period.

Wrath #1 - The wrath of The Lamb

During the first half of the Tribulation Period, when the Lord opens the sixth seal, the sixth of twenty-one judgments that will befall mankind during the seven-year Tribulation Period, prophecy teaches us the inhabitants of planet earth are going to cry out to the mountains and rocks to fall upon them. Why? Because they'll be so frightened of the wrath of the Lamb - our Savior Jesus Christ.

Revelation 6:15-17: And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Wrath #2 - The wrath of Satan

Satan, assuming the Tribulation Period hasn't begun when you read this, is currently the prince of the power of the air and has limited access to the throne of God, a fact many Christians don't realize is true. In the aftermath of the Rapture, near the midpoint of the seven-year Tribulation Period, Satan is going to be completely stripped of his access to the throne of God where he currently acts as an accuser of the brethren and be cast to the earth itself! When this happens, heaven and all those in it are going to rejoice, but Satan is going to be exceedingly wrathful because he will know his time is short!

Satan's limited access to God's throne, as recorded in Job's day

Job 1:6-7: Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:1-2: Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Satan cast out into the earth at or near the Tribulation Period's midpoint

Revelation 12:7-12: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Wrath #3 - The wrath of the Father

The final wrath that will fall on mankind and the earth is God the Father's wrath.

Revelation 15:7: And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

Revelation 16:1: And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.


How utterly frightening!

Whose time of trouble is the Tribulation Period?

Jeremiah 30:7 identifies the Tribulation Period as the time of Jacob's trouble - a reference to Israel.

Luke 21:23 points to the Tribulation Period being a time of wrath upon "this people" - another reference to Israel and the Jewish people.

Daniel 9:24 records God decreed 70 weeks (70 seven-year periods) against the children of Israel specifically. Sixty-nine of those weeks (69 periods of 7 years) are completed, as seen in Daniel 9:25-26, indicating the nation of Israel, "thy people" as seen in Daniel 9:24, has one more week (a seven-year period) to endure - the week (seven-year period) of the Tribulation Period. This again points to Israel and the Jewish people being the primary focus of the Tribulation Period.

When Christ returns at Armageddon,

will He be coming to avenge a victimized Church?

Joel 3:2: I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land.

Zechariah 14:2-3: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Where is the Church during the Tribulation Period?

Because the Church, comprised of believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, isn't appointed to wrath, the Church will be in heaven as a result of the Rapture!

1st Thessalonians 1:10: And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


1st Thessalonians 5:9: For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

Romans 5:9: Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Yes, the Rapture is a Pre-Tribulational event!

In Revelation, chapters 1-3, the word 'church' or 'churches' is used 19 times. After John hears the words 'come up hither' as recorded in Revelation 4:1, the Church isn't seen as a body again until it is seen in heaven at its wedding to Christ and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:7-8: Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

If the saints are seen in heaven marrying Christ while arrayed in white linen, it's a logical conclusion the Church has made it to heaven to get married, right?

Revelation 19:9: And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The parable of the ten virgins:

Are you ready for the Pre-Trib Rapture?

Matthew 25:1-13: Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

As we see in the parable of the ten virgins, some will be waiting for the bridegroom's invitation to go to the marriage and will head out to meet him at midnight, even though they were fast asleep at the time of his coming. A key thing to note in the parable concerning the sleep of those who rise up to meet the bridegroom when he comes is their sleep is one of peace rather than a lack of preparedness! We know this to be true because those who had prepared for his coming are seen rising out of their peaceful sleep, trimming their well-equipped lamps, and heading off to the marriage upon hearing the bridegroom's midnight call. In the aftermath of their departure to the wedding, those left behind are seen scrambling to try and go, but the moment has passed and the door to the marriage has been slammed shut.


Those of us who call ourselves Christians need to live our lives in a state of preparedness for the return of Jesus Christ to take place - even if His return comes at an hour when we least expect Him to arrive. This fact is made abundantly clear in Scripture to the extent no one should be able to question it.

No interpretation of the Rapture event other than a Pre-Tribulational Rapture interpretation withstands the test of imminence when scrutinized! The first four judgments of the Tribulation Period will see one quarter of the world's population die yet the Church, assuming for a moment it would be here, wouldn't be expecting the return of Jesus Christ to take place? That's just silly! It isn't even the least bit logical, is it?

We're not told to look for the coming of the Antichrist or the Tribulation Period, but to look for the return of Jesus Christ at an hour when life will be proceeding as normal, as opposed to the hell-like environment of the Tribulation Period.

Matthew 24:37-38: But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Luke 17:28-30: Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Pray ye be found worthy to escape!

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Trust in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture!

Titus 2:13: Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Revelation 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Hold onto your crown!

Revelation 3:11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

2nd Timothy 4:8: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

.............................................benny

Why don't you just critique this article yourself Benny and write it out in your own words. In typical fashion you cut and paste someone elses words and then expect post tribbers to spend their time refuting it.
Why not just write your own words for a change refuting the post-trib resurrection.

This article as is typical of pretrib doctrine is replete with error and falsehood.
The greatest of these is the monstrous doctrine of dispensationalism. Only pretribbers believe this. They had to invent a new doctrine dispensationalism because the old time held belief was not compatible with their pretrib belief.

Post Tribulation Resurrectionists DO NOT believe in dispensationalism. They believe that God did not finish working with Israel at the crucifixion of Christ but rather that God spared a remnant of Israel through the New Covenant enabling the Holy Nation of Israel to continue on in the church. Gentiles are adopted into the nation through circumcision of the heart and become Jews inwardly. The Jews who would not believe because were cut off from Israel despite their fleshly circumcision. This is all explained in Romans 9,10,11. Therefore Israel has been an unbroken nation since the time of Christ with Christ as our King and High Priest. Therefore we are called "children of the freewoman" and "seed of Abraham". Therefore the Great Tribulation is called "The time of Jacobs trouble"

I know that I have explained this all to you in detail Benny, but you have refused to listen. You have a hardness and intractability of the heart which those wretched people had at the time of Christ and for which they were swept away in 70AD. You just continue to post these works of other men which bristle with error and falsehood.

The scriptures which are quoted in this article in NO WAY preclude post tribulation resurrection. Please show how they do so. It is utterly dishonest to portray them in some way as doing so without providing any real explanation as to how they do.

I have also explained to you how God protects his people from his wrath throughout the trumpet plagues. You have refused with typical hardness of heart and intractability to read or comprehend what I have shown you. I gave you rock solid scriptures to support my explanations all of which you have ignored and left unanswered presumably because you lack the ability to do so. But then the next day you post another pretrib article which bristles with pseudo arguments, an appearance of scholarship, and an array of half truths and misinformation.

I'm utterly sick of it. I just can't keep over and over again refuting pretrib rapture. Hopefully a younger generation will have the energy to continually bash themselves against the anvils of pretrib rapture and Preterism both of which deny that we must face the GT. However I'm convinced now as I see this doctrine advancing and flourishing in Christian circles that the true doctrine of post tribulation resurrection will be overwhelmed by this false doctrine. Just as Paul could foresee that wicked men and false doctrine would eventually overwhelm the church of his day. I am almost entirely convinced now that the pretrib rapture is a powerful tool in the enemies kit bag which he is using to deceive Christians into not being prepared for the tribulation. I am almost entirely convinced that this pretrib doctrine is linked in intimately with the powerful delusion which will sent upon the world which all but a remnant of the church will be able to detect. The vast majority of Christendom and the world entirely will believe the lie to the damnation of their souls.

I urge everybody to wake up to the powerful deception which is the pre trib rapture and mark Benny as an agent of deception sent to sow seeds of doubt into the body of Christ. The first part of your preparation for the GT is the understanding that you will need to go through it. Christ says that those who prepare adequately will be worthy to escape from it, most likely into the wilderness. But those who do not prepare adequately and are found sleeping will be scourged and purified in the flames of the Great Tribulation. Many will fall and take the Mark of the Beast but many will wash their robes clean and white and will be ready for the appearing of the bridegroom.

This is the patience of the Saints.

Dear Excubitor,.....Rapture” is taken from the Latin word raptus, translated “caught up” from the verb rapere, which means “to transport from one place to another.” The Greek original is harpazo, which denotes a violent SNATCHING AWAY. .......For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:15-17)......."Notice the words caught up". .......Excubitor,...correct me if I am wrong,...but the word "resurrection pertains on to those who have died and have been brought back to life.............I do realize that you believe that the church will go thru the tribulation.......and that you believe that based from scripture in revelation; 13;7...."It was granted to him to make war with the saints, and to over come them.".........Yet also the scripture in Daniel 7;21..."I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them."......Excubitor,....Once again I realize that you believe that the word "saints"....are the church..............But it is not so........The church (BRIDE) was already in heaven during this time.....These "saints" spoken here are those who had been left behind including new converts to our Lord Jesus Christ......What makes me believe that this is the correct understanding?.....I say this because of Matthew 16;18-19...."And I also say to you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall "NOT PREVAIL" against it. .....And I give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.".........Excubitor,...You and I both know that the Word Of God does not contradict itself.....Also you must realize the power and authority that our Lord Jesus Christ has passed on to us......The anti-christ is no match for us....."WE" are a special and peculiar people.......The false prophet cannot perform one deceiving miracle, until the Bride has been caught up! The Holy Spirit is what holds back.....Once "WE" are caught up,....Then and only then can the anti-christ and the false prophet be revealed...By reason of the Power and Authority that "WE" inherited though our Lord Jesus Christ!..................The Lord says in Luke 21;34-36....."But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly........For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. ......Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.".......Excubitor,...In the post-tribulation setting, your belief is that the church is caught up at the end of the tribulation period. But notice the Words;....."WILL COME TO PASS".........................................Near the end of the tribulation period, there will be very few people left on this earth.....man will be as scarce as the gold of Ophir, which would suggest that there are not many people left alive, to pray to escape events that is about to come to pass. ........Lot and his family were already out of harms way before destruction came....Earlier, you stated that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world.....Excubitor, that statement is incorrect.......The correct statement would be that the Holy Spirit would be taken out of the way, so when this happens, then the rapture will happen. .....The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, so there is no way that He could be taken out of the world......Excubitor, try not to get sick ...............benny

[quote name='benny balerio' date='Mar 26 2007, 01:43 PM' post='106863']
Dear Excubitor,.....Rapture” is taken from the Latin word raptus, translated “caught up” from the verb rapere, which means “to transport from one place to another.” The Greek original is harpazo, which denotes a violent SNATCHING AWAY. .......For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:15-17)......."Notice the words caught up". .......Excubitor,...correct me if I am wrong,...but the word "resurrection pertains on to those who have died and have been brought back to life.............I do realize that you believe that the church will go thru the tribulation.......and that you believe that based from scripture in revelation; 13;7...."It was granted to him to make war with the saints, and to over come them.".........Yet also the scripture in Daniel 7;21..."I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them."......Excubitor,....Once again I realize that you believe that the word "saints"....are the church..............But it is not so........The church (BRIDE) was already in heaven during this time.....These "saints" spoken here are those who had been left behind including new converts to our Lord Jesus Christ......What makes me believe that this is the correct understanding?.....I say this because of Matthew 16;18-19...."And I also say to you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall "NOT PREVAIL" against it. .....And I give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.".........Excubitor,...You and I both know that the Word Of God does not contradict itself.....Also you must realize the power and authority that our Lord Jesus Christ has passed on to us......The anti-christ is no match for us....."WE" are a special and peculiar people.......The false prophet cannot perform one deceiving miracle, until the Bride has been caught up! The Holy Spirit is what holds back.....Once "WE" are caught up,....Then and only then can the anti-christ and the false prophet be revealed...By reason of the Power and Authority that "WE" inherited though our Lord Jesus Christ!..................The Lord says in Luke 21;34-36....."But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly........For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. ......Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.".......Excubitor,...In the post-tribulation setting, your belief is that the church is caught up at the end of the tribulation period. But notice the Words;....."WILL COME TO PASS".........................................Near the end of the tribulation period, there will be very few people left on this earth.....man will be as scarce as the gold of Ophir, which would suggest that there are not many people left alive, to pray to escape events that is about to come to pass. ........Lot and his family were already out of harms way before destruction came....Earlier, you stated that the Holy Spirit is taken out of the world.....Excubitor, that statement is incorrect.......The correct statement would be that the Holy Spirit would be taken out of the way, so when this happens, then the rapture will happen. .....The Holy Spirit is omnipresent, so there is no way that He could be taken out of the world......Excubitor, try not to get sick ...............benny
[/quote]
Well that was not too bad benny. At least this was your own words and had some scriptures thrown in. Its a pity that the scriptures were not better applied.
Why use a transliterated word from the Latin when we can use English words. Why not just say "caught up". I avoid the use of the word rapture because the connotation is entirely pretrib. The very point of Pauls writing here in 1 Thess 4 is to ensure that the dead in Christ will not miss out on witnessing the wonderful return of Christ. He says that they will be resurrected and caught up first and then we who are still alive will also be caught up. We will see these things happen with our own eyes. In fact the entire world will see this happening. When we are caught up we are changed in a twinkling of an eye from corruptible flesh which is simply constituted dust into incorruptible which is exactly the same thing which happens to the dead in Christ. The transformation of their physical bodies which are dead in the ground dissolved into dust into eternal bodies. So we are describing a single event here. As far as I am concerned I will very pleased with my resurrected body. "Rapture" describes the catching up into the air but says nothing at all about the changing of the body from corruptible into incorruptible and mortal into immortal. Therefore rapture is an entirely deficient term as compared to resurrection.

So Benny I am correcting you because you are wrong, just as you requested that I do. Will you listen though? Will you learn though? I doubt it. On account of your hardened and intractable heart.
You said:
"Once "WE" are caught up,....Then and only then can the anti-christ and the false prophet be revealed"
This idea is completely out of your head. Nowhere in scripture is anything like this said.
How does the fact that the antichrist tramples on the people of God for 3.5 years indicate that the gates of hell has prevailed against the church? It certainly does not. Death could not conquer Christ. How then can it conquer the church which is the body of Christ? In fact NOT ALL will die. The Bible explains that a remnant remain pure who escape death. These are the 144,000 who are sealed from the wrath of the Lamb as they await the return of Christ and the resurrection. There is also considerable evidence in Rev 12 that a body of believers will be sheltered in the wilderness from the ravages of the antichrist while they await the return of Christ.

So how you can imagine that post trib resurrection teaches that the gates of hell will prevail against the church I cannot imagine.

Dear Excubitor,.... ..There you go again, twisting scriptures. And yet you avoided the following from the above topic...."!..................The Lord says in Luke 21;34-36....."But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly........For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. ......Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.".......Excubitor,...In the post-tribulation setting, your belief is that the church is caught up at the end of the tribulation period. But notice the Words;....."WILL COME TO PASS".........................................Near the end of the tribulation period, there will be very few people left on this earth.....man will be as scarce as the gold of Ophir, which would suggest that there are not many people left alive, to pray to escape events that is about to come to pass. .What you are trying to describe,.... is that the christians are caught up at the end of the tribulation period,meet the Lord in the air, and come back down to the earth......That is what is called the yo-yo effect....Try placing the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and the Judgement Seat of Jesus Christ event, while the Lord is decending upon the eath from the "AIR"....Your understanding of this topic is very much in error.......Now lets take a look at revelation 19.....The point here is to prove that scripture strongly suggest that the Bride is already in heaven prior to descending upon the earth at the end of the tribulation period.....1.And these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God.2.For true and righteous are His judgements, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the bloodof His servants shed by her.3.Again they said, Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!4. And the twenty- four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the thrown, saying Amen Alleluia!......Now if I recall,..You once stated that these 24 elders were angels.....But that would be incorrect...in revelation 4..these same 24 elders cannot be angels because angels do not have throwns and as you can read, there are 24 thrones surrounding the throne of God. Also these 24 elders are dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. Considering that they have thrones, so they're rulers. They surround the throne of God, so they assist Him. They're seated, so their work is done. They're dressed in white, so they're righteous. They're wearing the Greek "stephanos" crown, so they're victors, over comers. They're called elders, a title associated more with christianity than Judaism........Now back to Revelation 19;6........Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) 9. Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." 10.At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:5-10) From the use of past tense verbs referring to the wedding, the bride and the clothing she was given, it looks like John's describing an event that's already taken place. Notice that while the clothing represents the bride's righteousness, it's not her clothing. It was given to her. We're not righteous by our own works. Our righteousness is given to us by the Lord. (2 Corinth. 5:21) The Greek word literally means righteousness rather than righteous acts.
Isaiah 61:10 describes this scene more clearly. I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.......When John changes to the present tense in speaking of those invited to the Wedding Supper, he's making reference to believing Tribulation Survivors on Earth, soon to be invited into the Kingdom as described in the parable of the 10 virgins. (Matt. 25:1-13) The Church is the Bride, and the Bride is not a bunch of invited guests, nor even a group of bridesmaids. Like the Church, she's one body. And she doesn't need an invitation to her own wedding banquet, because she's the main attraction. Without her there wouldn't be a banquet......11.I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written....Excubitor...The Man on that white horse is Jesus Christ,.... not the imposter from Rev. 6. The crowns He wears are diadems, the crowns of royalty. The sharp sword is His Word as explained in Hebrews 4:12, and His robe is dipped in blood as foretold in Isaiah 63:1-6. John gives Him the name from his gospel, The Word. (John 1:1) ......................................
"He will rule them with an iron scepter" is a direct quote from Psalm 2:9, a promise given by God to His Son, and by the Son to the over comers of Thyatira. (Rev. 2:26-27) This signifies that His Church will rule with Him, and identifies those on white horses and dressed in white linen who accompany Him as the Church. Though we're called the armies of heaven, He's doing all the fighting. Excubitor,..."WE" are His Bride And "WE" are leaving very soon to meet Him in the air. Then very shortly there after,The last seven years will begin to tick off the last 7 years to complete the 490 year decree for the Jewish race......................................God Bless...............benny

The bible disagrees with both of you!

The rapture occurs exactly where the bible says it will occur, and that is when the sixth seal is opened.
T
he great tribulation is Satan’s wrath and it begins at the midpoint of the seventieth week and is cut short by the coming of Christ for his church.

The great tribulation is the wrath of Satan, and the day of the Lord is the wrath of God. The day of the Lord ends when the last bowl is poured out.

The rapture trumpet is not the seventh war trumpet as the post tribbers say. The rapture trumpet is the last trumpet to call for all saints to assemble to Christ. When Paul mentioned the rapture trumpet in I Colossions 15:52 they knew what the last trumpet meant, and at that time there wasn’t a book of Revelation.

1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You both are guilty of shifting things around in the book of Revelation. The seals are wrapped around the scroll like rubber bands around a rolled up newspaper. All seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened.

Re 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

In my mind is takes a very ignorant person to say that the sixth seal is opened before the other five? John would have to have deliberately lied about what he saw, if the seals were not opened one after the other as he saw Christ open them.

The post tribbers ignore the order of things and shift the coming of Christ to the last trumpet. The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is opened and a great earthquake occurs followed by all the heavenly lights going out plunging the world into darkness. Every eye will see Christ coming down from heaven for his Church. He will stop in the clouds and the angels will gather the Church up to him.

Following the rapture the seventh seal will be opened and the 144.000 Jews will be sealed. The scroll will be opened and the first trumpet will sound. The seven trumpets will sound and Christ will return to earth and go to the wilderness and lead the 144,000 back to Jerusalem. The bowls will be poured out and there will be forty-five days to clean up the land and then the sheep and goat judgment will take place on the first day of the millennium.

One does not have to shift one passage out of line in order for all end time prophecy to fit.

Ro 10:21 But to ISRAEL he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an ISRAELite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against ISRAEL, saying,

Ro 11:7 What then? ISRAEL hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ro 11:26 And so all ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL.

The 144,000 are the first fruits of national Israel that will go into the millennium with Christ. Notice that they are only blind until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. The 144,000 are saved when they see the church raptured but too late to go up in the rapture.

I am not really bothered by the post trib rapture because the church will know that they must endure a fiery trial and may be even die for their faith and that is what’s the most important. I think the post tribbers should understand that the reason for shifting things around is to force fit the trumpets and bowls into their doctrine. They could not squeeze their doctrine into a seven-year time frame so they overlapped the bowls with the trumpets. The bowels actually are poured out during the thirty days following the seventh week.

==BENNY==============================================
Dear Excubitor,.... ..There you go again, twisting scriptures. And yet you avoided the following from the above topic...."!..................The Lord says in Luke 21;34-36....."But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly........For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. ......Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.".......Excubitor,...In the post-tribulation setting, your belief is that the church is caught up at the end of the tribulation period. But notice the Words;....."WILL COME TO PASS".........................................
==EXCUBITOR===========================================
I did not respond to this because I did not understand your point. You havent even given me a scripture reference for WiLL COme TO PASS so how am i supposed to respond.

==BENNY==============================================
Near the end of the tribulation period, there will be very few people left on this earth.....man will be as scarce as the gold of Ophir, which would suggest that there are not many people left alive, to pray to escape events that is about to come to pass. .

==EXCUBITOR===========================================
So what if there are very few people left on earth. What does that have to do with anything? How does the fact that there are few people left on the earth prove a pretrib rapture?

==BENNY==============================================
What you are trying to describe,.... is that the christians are caught up at the end of the tribulation period,meet the Lord in the air, and come back down to the earth......That is what is called the yo-yo effect....Try placing the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and the Judgement Seat of Jesus Christ event, while the Lord is decending upon the eath from the "AIR"....Your understanding of this topic is very much in error.......

==EXCUBITOR===========================================
Who says that the marriage supper and the judgement seat of Christ occurs in the air. I never said that. That is pretrib erroneus teaching. Both of these events occur on the ground AFTER Christ and all the Saints land on the mount of Olives. The judgement of the nations is an ongoing activity starting with armageddon.

==BENNY==============================================
Now lets take a look at revelation 19.....The point here is to prove that scripture strongly suggest that the Bride is already in heaven prior to descending upon the earth at the end of the tribulation period.....1.And these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God.2.For true and righteous are His judgements, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the bloodof His servants shed by her.3.Again they said, Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!4. And the twenty- four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the thrown, saying Amen Alleluia!......Now if I recall,..You once stated that these 24 elders were angels.....But that would be incorrect...in revelation 4..these same 24 elders cannot be angels because angels do not have throwns and as you can read, there are 24 thrones surrounding the throne of God. Also these 24 elders are dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. Considering that they have thrones, so they're rulers. They surround the throne of God, so they assist Him. They're seated, so their work is done. They're dressed in white, so they're righteous. They're wearing the Greek "stephanos" crown, so they're victors, over comers. They're called elders, a title associated more with christianity than Judaism........Now back to Revelation 19;6........Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) 9. Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." 10.At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:5-10) From the use of past tense verbs referring to the wedding, the bride and the clothing she was given, it looks like John's describing an event that's already taken place. Notice that while the clothing represents the bride's righteousness, it's not her clothing. It was given to her. We're not righteous by our own works. Our righteousness is given to us by the Lord. (2 Corinth. 5:21) The Greek word literally means righteousness rather than righteous acts.
Isaiah 61:10 describes this scene more clearly. I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.......When John changes to the present tense in speaking of those invited to the Wedding Supper, he's making reference to believing Tribulation Survivors on Earth, soon to be invited into the Kingdom as described in the parable of the 10 virgins. (Matt. 25:1-13) The Church is the Bride, and the Bride is not a bunch of invited guests, nor even a group of bridesmaids. Like the Church, she's one body. And she doesn't need an invitation to her own wedding banquet, because she's the main attraction. Without her there wouldn't be a banquet......11.I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written....Excubitor...The Man on that white horse is Jesus Christ,.... not the imposter from Rev. 6. The crowns He wears are diadems, the crowns of royalty. The sharp sword is His Word as explained in Hebrews 4:12, and His robe is dipped in blood as foretold in Isaiah 63:1-6. John gives Him the name from his gospel, The Word. (John 1:1) ......................................
"He will rule them with an iron scepter" is a direct quote from Psalm 2:9, a promise given by God to His Son, and by the Son to the over comers of Thyatira. (Rev. 2:26-27) This signifies that His Church will rule with Him, and identifies those on white horses and dressed in white linen who accompany Him as the Church. Though we're called the armies of heaven, He's doing all the fighting. Excubitor,..."WE" are His Bride And "WE" are leaving very soon to meet Him in the air. Then very shortly there after,The last seven years will begin to tick off the last 7 years to complete the 490 year decree for the Jewish race......................................God Bless...............benny

==EXCUBITOR===========================================
Invariably when I read "the scripture strongly suggests" I am immediately alerted that it does not exactly say that but that the person desperately wants it to say that. This is entirely so with this tract you have written. Nothing in this provides any support whatsoever for your view that the marriage supper occurs in heaven. Of course all of the angels in heaven will rejoice when they see the marriage of the lamb occuring down on earth. They are witnesses of all these things which are occuring on earth and rejoiced at the foundaton of the earth
[i]Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast [2] understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations [3] thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?[/i]

So why would they rejoice at the foundation of the earth and not for the marriage of the lamb.
Everything else you have said. "Jesus coming down on a white horse" "church being the bride" etc. is entirely compatible with posttrib belief. If you think its not you will have to explain yourself better.

The verses in Rev 19:1-10 are not describing a past event as you say. You are entirely wrong on this point. They are announcing a future event and welcoming the visitors to the wedding. They are describing a bride who has made herself ready for her wedding. Clearly if the bride is ready for her wedding then she has not yet been married. It describes her getting dressed into her bridal gowns. What bride dresses in her bridal gowns after she is married.

Pretribbers have to completely corrupt the plain meaning of words to make out this is a past event. If I said to you "the Bride has come" would you assume that the wedding was all finished and complete. No of course not, you would conclude that the Bride has just arrived and that the time for the marriage proceedings has come.

So here is the sequence of events.
1. Bride makes herself ready during the tribulation
2. The sign of the son of Man appears in the sky with a great display
3. Bride is caught up into the clouds arrayed in her bridal gowns.
5. Heaven open and Christ on his white horse comes out of the clouds followed by his bride.
6. Christ lands on the Mt. of Olives
7. The marriage of the lamb occurs in Jerusalem
8. The marriage supper occurs at Armageddon.

The message of this parable is that the scum of the earth will attend the wedding, the wretched remnants of earths civilizations which remain after all the destructions of wars. If the wedding is in heaven as you claim then which of God's creation in heaven can be described as "bad" and are taken from streets and alley ways?
"And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. .........
Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.' And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:1-14)
And which creature in heaven would not be clothed in a wedding garment? And which creature in heave would be cast into outer darkness?

The other consideration is that Christ promised to not drink the fruit of the vine until he HAD RETURNED. So are you telling me that Christ and the Bride have a wedding supper where they DO NOT drink wine?

Even if I am wrong and the wedding takes place in the clouds before the descent to the earth, how long does a wedding take anyway? Mine took about 20 minutes and then we travelled to the reception and the marriage supper. Pretribbers have the marriage of the lamb and the supper taking 3.5 years in heaven while the tribulation saints are getting beheaded down on earth. Why so long for a wedding?

Also in typical fashion the pretribbers have to have two of everything. Two last trumpets (one that you can hear and one that only christians can hear) two second comings of Christ (one secret and the other visible), two bodies of saints (the raptured church and the tribulation saints), two first resurrections (one for the church and the other for the tribulation saints) and also they must have two suppers in Revelation 19 one in heaven and one down on earth. However there is no contextual justification for such a conclusion. Nowhere in the text does it indicate that they are seperate suppers. That can only be concluded by trying to force the passage into a preconceived idea.

The marriage supper is very clearly being spent on earth because the supper is described as being Armageddon. It is a feast of the earths harvest. I don't like the imagery much of course but it is there plainly written. Even if you don't like it being a marriage supper it is a supper nonetheless to which we are invited to eat the flesh of Kings (In a figurative sense no doubt)

In verses 1-10 the marriage and the supper is announced and so why would we conclude that the supper of the Great God in verse 17 is anything other than the supper which was announced in verse 9? By this straightforward logic we can determine that the wedding supper occurs AFTER the tribulation and not during because we know that Armageddon occurs AFTER the tribulation and not during. Clearly also the marriage supper is ON EARTH because there are no kings being slaughtered in heaven or vultures to eat them.

[quote name='HAMMER' date='Mar 26 2007, 08:41 PM' post='106971']
The bible disagrees with both of you!

The rapture occurs exactly where the bible says it will occur, and that is when the sixth seal is opened.
T
he great tribulation is Satan’s wrath and it begins at the midpoint of the seventieth week and is cut short by the coming of Christ for his church.

The great tribulation is the wrath of Satan, and the day of the Lord is the wrath of God. The day of the Lord ends when the last bowl is poured out.

The rapture trumpet is not the seventh war trumpet as the post tribbers say. The rapture trumpet is the last trumpet to call for all saints to assemble to Christ. When Paul mentioned the rapture trumpet in I Colossions 15:52 they knew what the last trumpet meant, and at that time there wasn’t a book of Revelation.

1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You both are guilty of shifting things around in the book of Revelation. The seals are wrapped around the scroll like rubber bands around a rolled up newspaper. All seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened.

Re 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

In my mind is takes a very ignorant person to say that the sixth seal is opened before the other five? John would have to have deliberately lied about what he saw, if the seals were not opened one after the other as he saw Christ open them.

The post tribbers ignore the order of things and shift the coming of Christ to the last trumpet. The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is opened and a great earthquake occurs followed by all the heavenly lights going out plunging the world into darkness. Every eye will see Christ coming down from heaven for his Church. He will stop in the clouds and the angels will gather the Church up to him.

Following the rapture the seventh seal will be opened and the 144.000 Jews will be sealed. The scroll will be opened and the first trumpet will sound. The seven trumpets will sound and Christ will return to earth and go to the wilderness and lead the 144,000 back to Jerusalem. The bowls will be poured out and there will be forty-five days to clean up the land and then the sheep and goat judgment will take place on the first day of the millennium.

One does not have to shift one passage out of line in order for all end time prophecy to fit.

Ro 10:21 But to ISRAEL he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an ISRAELite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Ro 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against ISRAEL, saying,

Ro 11:7 What then? ISRAEL hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to ISRAEL, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Ro 11:26 And so all ISRAEL shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Re 7:4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL.

The 144,000 are the first fruits of national Israel that will go into the millennium with Christ. Notice that they are only blind until the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. The 144,000 are saved when they see the church raptured but too late to go up in the rapture.

I am not really bothered by the post trib rapture because the church will know that they must endure a fiery trial and may be even die for their faith and that is what’s the most important. I think the post tribbers should understand that the reason for shifting things around is to force fit the trumpets and bowls into their doctrine. They could not squeeze their doctrine into a seven-year time frame so they overlapped the bowls with the trumpets. The bowels actually are poured out during the thirty days following the seventh week.
[/quote]
Dear Hammer,...You speak the truth only a little, then twist to fit your belief....You Start out correctly in speaking the Word of God, then suddenly you veer away from a correct understanding...................For instance, You state that the christians will stand on a sea of glass in heaven at the rapture........You have stated this correctly......But this event transpires before the 7 year trib ever begins....The Christians that I refer to standing on this sea of glass, I am talking about the Bride of Jesus Christ Who will be kept from the wrath to come and the hour of temptation...to suggest otherwise, would be to say that "WE" must earn our way to heaven byway of the trib period...In revelation 4;6..The Bride is standing on a sea of glass.....With that said,...notice the difference of the sea of glass and what is stated in revelation 15;2 "And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, and over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God......Lets look at it in this way through logic......"Anyone who has passed away in the present and past, who were truely born again christians Are going to go to heaven because of the sacrafice that the Lord Jesus provided for us on the cross of Calvary......The Lord is no respecter of persons...They do not have to prove that they are worthy by going through the tribulation period...They are of the Bride of Jesus Christ, and when the rapture comes to pass,..."WE" who are alive and remain will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air........Revelation 15;2....The people standing on the sea of glass mingled with fire, are those who missed the rapture before the tribulation began, but came to The Lord afterwards, But the cost was great for not watching and being ready..........Hammer, you replied to post # 9.....You should try studying My topic.....There are some statements that I know that you will not dare refute, nor can you twist them ....For the truth are in them..................................benny

No Hammer it is you who is shifting things around

HAMMER======================================================
The rapture trumpet is not the seventh war trumpet as the post tribbers say. The rapture trumpet is the last trumpet to call for all saints to assemble to Christ. When Paul mentioned the rapture trumpet in I Colossions 15:52 they knew what the last trumpet meant, and at that time there wasn’t a book of Revelation.

1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You both are guilty of shifting things around in the book of Revelation. The seals are wrapped around the scroll like rubber bands around a rolled up newspaper. All seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened.

Re 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

In my mind is takes a very ignorant person to say that the sixth seal is opened before the other five? John would have to have deliberately lied about what he saw, if the seals were not opened one after the other as he saw Christ open them.

The post tribbers ignore the order of things and shift the coming of Christ to the last trumpet. The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is opened and a great earthquake occurs followed by all the heavenly lights going out plunging the world into darkness. Every eye will see Christ coming down from heaven for his Church. He will stop in the clouds and the angels will gather the Church up to him.

EXCUBITOR=====================================================
How can you argue that the seventh trumpet in Rev is not the last trump of 1 Cor. How can the trumpet in 1 Cor be a last trumpet if it is not part of a series of trumpets. So you are no different to the pretribbers arguing that there are two series of trumpets. Rapture trumpets and Plague trumpets. Nowhere are two series of trumpets mentioned. You have only been forced to infer this because of your erroneus belief that Christ returns at the 6th seal. HE does not. He returns at the seventh which is the revealing of the seven trumpet plagues the seventh of which includes the return of Christ. The sixth seal is the heavenly signs and wonders in the sky which announce the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God in the seven trumpet plagues.

You said "The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened." but then provide no scriptural evidence to support your statement.
Rev 11:15 explains that the seventh trumpet is when the saints are given their reward as described and when Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world. Now the two witnesses are said to be killed and resurrected during the sixth trumpet (second woe). How can this be if the resurrection occurred at the 6th seal. Also why would the 144000 need to be sealed and protected from physical plagues of the 5th seal if the resurrection was already past and they were resurrected into immortal bodies?

[quote name='excubitor' date='Mar 26 2007, 09:05 PM' post='106974']
==BENNY==============================================
Dear Excubitor,.... ..There you go again, twisting scriptures. And yet you avoided the following from the above topic...."!..................The Lord says in Luke 21;34-36....."But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly........For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. ......Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.".......Excubitor,...In the post-tribulation setting, your belief is that the church is caught up at the end of the tribulation period. But notice the Words;....."WILL COME TO PASS".........................................
==EXCUBITOR===========================================
I did not respond to this because I did not understand your point. You havent even given me a scripture reference for WiLL COme TO PASS so how am i supposed to respond.
Benny's reply;Yes I did give you a scripture referance...for "WILL COME TO PASS".....Go back and read post # 9 again :rolleyes
==BENNY==============================================
Near the end of the tribulation period, there will be very few people left on this earth.....man will be as scarce as the gold of Ophir, which would suggest that there are not many people left alive, to pray to escape events that is about to come to pass. .

==EXCUBITOR===========================================
So what if there are very few people left on earth. What does that have to do with anything? How does the fact that there are few people left on the earth prove a pretrib rapture?
Benny's reply....Meant nothing more than a bleak picture of an endtime scenerio
==BENNY==============================================
What you are trying to describe,.... is that the christians are caught up at the end of the tribulation period,meet the Lord in the air, and come back down to the earth......That is what is called the yo-yo effect....Try placing the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and the Judgement Seat of Jesus Christ event, while the Lord is decending upon the eath from the "AIR"....Your understanding of this topic is very much in error.......

==EXCUBITOR===========================================
Who says that the marriage supper and the judgement seat of Christ occurs in the air. I never said that. That is pretrib erroneus teaching. Both of these events occur on the ground AFTER Christ and all the Saints land on the mount of Olives. The judgement of the nations is an ongoing activity starting with armageddon.
Benny's reply;The Marriage supper and the Bema Judgement takes place in heaven....That Excubitor is the pre-trib teaching.....When I said,....Try placing these events while the Lord is descending on the earth from the air, is because of your belief that 1Thessalonians 4;17 would be an event that would happen at the end of the trib period.....You see,.....When the Lord descends from heaven to earth....He does not go back to heaven for the Marriage supper of the Lamb and Bema seat judgement, but in stead His feet touch the mount of Olives.....in other words; the Marriage supper of the Lamb and Bema seat judgement does "NOT" happen on the earth, nor does it happen in the air, or at a half way point of your yo-yo effect.
==BENNY==============================================
Now lets take a look at revelation 19.....The point here is to prove that scripture strongly suggest that the Bride is already in heaven prior to descending upon the earth at the end of the tribulation period.....1.And these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God.2.For true and righteous are His judgements, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the bloodof His servants shed by her.3.Again they said, Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!4. And the twenty- four elders and the four living creatures fell down and worshiped God who sat on the thrown, saying Amen Alleluia!......Now if I recall,..You once stated that these 24 elders were angels.....But that would be incorrect...in revelation 4..these same 24 elders cannot be angels because angels do not have throwns and as you can read, there are 24 thrones surrounding the throne of God. Also these 24 elders are dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. Considering that they have thrones, so they're rulers. They surround the throne of God, so they assist Him. They're seated, so their work is done. They're dressed in white, so they're righteous. They're wearing the Greek "stephanos" crown, so they're victors, over comers. They're called elders, a title associated more with christianity than Judaism........Now back to Revelation 19;6........Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting: "Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear." (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints.) 9. Then the angel said to me, "Write: 'Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!' " And he added, "These are the true words of God." 10.At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." (Rev 19:5-10) From the use of past tense verbs referring to the wedding, the bride and the clothing she was given, it looks like John's describing an event that's already taken place. Notice that while the clothing represents the bride's righteousness, it's not her clothing. It was given to her. We're not righteous by our own works. Our righteousness is given to us by the Lord. (2 Corinth. 5:21) The Greek word literally means righteousness rather than righteous acts.
Isaiah 61:10 describes this scene more clearly. I delight greatly in the LORD; my soul rejoices in my God. For he has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.......When John changes to the present tense in speaking of those invited to the Wedding Supper, he's making reference to believing Tribulation Survivors on Earth, soon to be invited into the Kingdom as described in the parable of the 10 virgins. (Matt. 25:1-13) The Church is the Bride, and the Bride is not a bunch of invited guests, nor even a group of bridesmaids. Like the Church, she's one body. And she doesn't need an invitation to her own wedding banquet, because she's the main attraction. Without her there wouldn't be a banquet......11.I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter." He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written....Excubitor...The Man on that white horse is Jesus Christ,.... not the imposter from Rev. 6. The crowns He wears are diadems, the crowns of royalty. The sharp sword is His Word as explained in Hebrews 4:12, and His robe is dipped in blood as foretold in Isaiah 63:1-6. John gives Him the name from his gospel, The Word. (John 1:1) ......................................
"He will rule them with an iron scepter" is a direct quote from Psalm 2:9, a promise given by God to His Son, and by the Son to the over comers of Thyatira. (Rev. 2:26-27) This signifies that His Church will rule with Him, and identifies those on white horses and dressed in white linen who accompany Him as the Church. Though we're called the armies of heaven, He's doing all the fighting. Excubitor,..."WE" are His Bride And "WE" are leaving very soon to meet Him in the air. Then very shortly there after,The last seven years will begin to tick off the last 7 years to complete the 490 year decree for the Jewish race......................................God Bless...............benny

==EXCUBITOR===========================================
Invariably when I read "the scripture strongly suggests" I am immediately alerted that it does not exactly say that but that the person desperately wants it to say that. This is entirely so with this tract you have written. Nothing in this provides any support whatsoever for your view that the marriage supper occurs in heaven. Of course all of the angels in heaven will rejoice when they see the marriage of the lamb occuring down on earth. They are witnesses of all these things which are occuring on earth and rejoiced at the foundaton of the earth
[i]Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast [2] understanding. 5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6 Whereupon are the foundations [3] thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?[/i]

So why would they rejoice at the foundation of the earth and not for the marriage of the lamb.
Everything else you have said. "Jesus coming down on a white horse" "church being the bride" etc. is entirely compatible with posttrib belief. If you think its not you will have to explain yourself better.

The verses in Rev 19:1-10 are not describing a past event as you say. You are entirely wrong on this point. They are announcing a future event and welcoming the visitors to the wedding. They are describing a bride who has made herself ready for her wedding. Clearly if the bride is ready for her wedding then she has not yet been married. It describes her getting dressed into her bridal gowns. What bride dresses in her bridal gowns after she is married.

Pretribbers have to completely corrupt the plain meaning of words to make out this is a past event. If I said to you "the Bride has come" would you assume that the wedding was all finished and complete. No of course not, you would conclude that the Bride has just arrived and that the time for the marriage proceedings has come.

So here is the sequence of events.
1. Bride makes herself ready during the tribulation
2. The sign of the son of Man appears in the sky with a great display
3. Bride is caught up into the clouds arrayed in her bridal gowns.
5. Heaven open and Christ on his white horse comes out of the clouds followed by his bride.
6. Christ lands on the Mt. of Olives
7. The marriage of the lamb occurs in Jerusalem
8. The marriage supper occurs at Armageddon.

The message of this parable is that the scum of the earth will attend the wedding, the wretched remnants of earths civilizations which remain after all the destructions of wars. If the wedding is in heaven as you claim then which of God's creation in heaven can be described as "bad" and are taken from streets and alley ways?
"And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son, and sent his servants to call those who were invited to the marriage feast; but they would not come. .........
Go therefore to the thoroughfares, and invite to the marriage feast as many as you find.' And those servants went out into the streets and gathered all whom they found, both bad and good; so the wedding hall was filled with guests. "But when the king came in to look at the guests, he saw there a man who had no wedding garment; and he said to him, 'Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless. Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.' For many are called, but few are chosen." (Matthew 22:1-14)
And which creature in heaven would not be clothed in a wedding garment? And which creature in heave would be cast into outer darkness?

The other consideration is that Christ promised to not drink the fruit of the vine until he HAD RETURNED. So are you telling me that Christ and the Bride have a wedding supper where they DO NOT drink wine?

Even if I am wrong and the wedding takes place in the clouds before the descent to the earth, how long does a wedding take anyway? Mine took about 20 minutes and then we travelled to the reception and the marriage supper. Pretribbers have the marriage of the lamb and the supper taking 3.5 years in heaven while the tribulation saints are getting beheaded down on earth. Why so long for a wedding?

Also in typical fashion the pretribbers have to have two of everything. Two last trumpets (one that you can hear and one that only christians can hear) two second comings of Christ (one secret and the other visible), two bodies of saints (the raptured church and the tribulation saints), two first resurrections (one for the church and the other for the tribulation saints) and also they must have two suppers in Revelation 19 one in heaven and one down on earth. However there is no contextual justification for such a conclusion. Nowhere in the text does it indicate that they are seperate suppers. That can only be concluded by trying to force the passage into a preconceived idea.

The marriage supper is very clearly being spent on earth because the supper is described as being Armageddon. It is a feast of the earths harvest. I don't like the imagery much of course but it is there plainly written. Even if you don't like it being a marriage supper it is a supper nonetheless to which we are invited to eat the flesh of Kings (In a figurative sense no doubt)

In verses 1-10 the marriage and the supper is announced and so why would we conclude that the supper of the Great God in verse 17 is anything other than the supper which was announced in verse 9? By this straightforward logic we can determine that the wedding supper occurs AFTER the tribulation and not during because we know that Armageddon occurs AFTER the tribulation and not during. Clearly also the marriage supper is ON EARTH because there are no kings being slaughtered in heaven or vultures to eat them.
[/quote].....Dear excubitor,....Wife wants me off the pc,.....I will get back to this tomorrow for further replies....But before I go,....I would like to hear you address the subject of the 24 elders, and the scripture that I earlier pointed out that you overlooked.....The words that says.."Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall "COME TO PASS" and to stand before the Son of Man....Excubitor these are Words given to us by the Lord....What things are He speaking of?.....The Lord is taking about escaping the horrors of the Trib Period....In other words to catch us up before the trib begins......You cannot just pick and choose, and then kick out the rest because it did not fit your belief......everything must harmonize....It looks like from briefly reading your following statements that you are digging yourself into a hole (figure of speech).....I'll get back with you on the rest of this tomorrow......If not.......See you in heaven............................God Bless...........benny

BENNY========================================================
Dear excubitor,....Wife wants me off the pc,.....I will get back to this tomorrow for further replies....But before I go,....I would like to hear you address the subject of the 24 elders, and the scripture that I earlier pointed out that you overlooked.....The words that says.."Pray that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall "COME TO PASS" and to stand before the Son of Man....Excubitor these are Words given to us by the Lord....What things are He speaking of?.....The Lord is taking about escaping the horrors of the Trib Period....In other words to catch us up before the trib begins......You cannot just pick and choose, and then kick out the rest because it did not fit your belief......everything must harmonize....It looks like from briefly reading your following statements that you are digging yourself into a hole (figure of speech).....I'll get back with you on the rest of this tomorrow......If not.......See you in heaven............................God Bless...........benny

EXCUBITOR========================================================
Benny, I agree that everything must harmonise. This can easily be done with post trib without having to have two of everything. Two last trumpets (one that you can hear and one that only christians can hear) two second comings of Christ (one secret and the other visible), two bodies of saints (the raptured church and the tribulation saints), two first resurrections (one for the church and the other for the tribulation saints) and also they must have two suppers in Revelation 19 one in heaven and one down on earth.

Surely pretrib is proven not to harmonise by the necessity to have to create 2 of everything. So although you avoid every second point which I raise I will nonetheless answer the points you have made. Unlike pretrib, posttribber have the luxury of being right so it is very to answer questions without having to carve up the scriptures and invent things.

I have written before on the 24 elders. I will dig up what I wrote and will answer you. Suffice it to say that they are angelic beings which represent the saints in the role of glorifying God at the throne of God. The perform the same function as the 4 angelic beasts which nobody argues are men.

As for the matter of being worthy to escape. I have written countless times on this subject, even quite recently. So it frustrates me to have to answer this to you again. The escape of Christians from the Great Tribulation is described in Revelation 12. Where the worthy saints who do not need to be tried by fire are taken to a place of safety in the wilderness and are fed there for the 3.5 year period. I believe that these Christians have seen the rise of the antichrist and have fled into the wilderness abandoning their lives in this society and world. They have sought to lose their lives but will find them. Those who stay behind to save their lives thinking that they are safe from the antichrist or not recognising the danger will need to go through the Great Tribulation. These are the "remnant of her seed" who the dragon Satan turns his fury upon when he cannot get at the christians sheltered in the wilderness.

Remember that the children of Israel were going to spend around 4 years in the wilderness before entering the promised land and on account of their grumbling and lack of belief they died in the wilderness. This is a foreshadowing of the latter day Israel of the remnant church fleeing from tyranny into the wilderness. Will we grumble when we have nothing to eat, or complain when we have nothing to eat? Or will we trust completely in our God with no grumbling or disbelief. Not sure? Therefore we need to watch, pray, prepare, get used to living simply and with less. Deny yourself the luxuries of Babylon. Come out of her lest you share in her plagues.

As it says. In the last days it will be like the days of Lot. "Luke 17:32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it."
Read the signs of the end times. When you see the abomination of desolation set up in the Holy Place where it should not be then "Go at once" Flee into the mountains. Run to the wilderness. Do not look back to collect anything which is in your house. Those who are watching and waiting and preparing and praying will recognise the abomination of desolation when it is set up. The sleeping saints will not. The worthy prepared Christians will leave everything and will be trusting on the Lord in the wilderness. Pray that your flight is not in winter. If it is then you better have warm jackets boots and clothes to wear. You should have a bug out bag ready to grab if you have time with a few supplies tucked inside.

Let us spend the rest of our short days on this earth divesting ourselves of assets and things which will only hold us to this world. Lets stop accumulating possessions and give things away. Lets not fill our days with hobbys and leisure and entertainment activity. But rather let us watch and prepare for the end of days as prophecied by our Lord on the Mount of Olives. To which place he will return soon. Even so come Lord Jesus come.

[quote name='excubitor' date='Mar 26 2007, 09:26 PM' post='106981']
No Hammer it is you who is shifting things around

HAMMER======================================================
The rapture trumpet is not the seventh war trumpet as the post tribbers say. The rapture trumpet is the last trumpet to call for all saints to assemble to Christ. When Paul mentioned the rapture trumpet in I Colossions 15:52 they knew what the last trumpet meant, and at that time there wasn’t a book of Revelation.

1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You both are guilty of shifting things around in the book of Revelation. The seals are wrapped around the scroll like rubber bands around a rolled up newspaper. All seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened.

Re 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

In my mind is takes a very ignorant person to say that the sixth seal is opened before the other five? John would have to have deliberately lied about what he saw, if the seals were not opened one after the other as he saw Christ open them.

The post tribbers ignore the order of things and shift the coming of Christ to the last trumpet. The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is opened and a great earthquake occurs followed by all the heavenly lights going out plunging the world into darkness. Every eye will see Christ coming down from heaven for his Church. He will stop in the clouds and the angels will gather the Church up to him.

EXCUBITOR=====================================================
How can you argue that the seventh trumpet in Rev is not the last trump of 1 Cor. How can the trumpet in 1 Cor be a last trumpet if it is not part of a series of trumpets. So you are no different to the pretribbers arguing that there are two series of trumpets. Rapture trumpets and Plague trumpets. Nowhere are two series of trumpets mentioned. You have only been forced to infer this because of your erroneus belief that Christ returns at the 6th seal. HE does not. He returns at the seventh which is the revealing of the seven trumpet plagues the seventh of which includes the return of Christ. The sixth seal is the heavenly signs and wonders in the sky which announce the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God in the seven trumpet plagues.

You said "The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened." but then provide no scriptural evidence to support your statement.
Rev 11:15 explains that the seventh trumpet is when the saints are given their reward as described and when Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world. Now the two witnesses are said to be killed and resurrected during the sixth trumpet (second woe). How can this be if the resurrection occurred at the 6th seal. Also why would the 144000 need to be sealed and protected from physical plagues of the 5th seal if the resurrection was already past and they were resurrected into immortal bodies?
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Mt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.




[b]No Hammer it is you who is shifting things around

HAMMER======================================================
The rapture trumpet is not the seventh war trumpet as the post tribbers say. The rapture trumpet is the last trumpet to call for all saints to assemble to Christ. When Paul mentioned the rapture trumpet in I Colossions 15:52 they knew what the last trumpet meant, and at that time there wasn’t a book of Revelation.

1co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

You both are guilty of shifting things around in the book of Revelation. The seals are wrapped around the scroll like rubber bands around a rolled up newspaper. All seals must be removed before the scroll can be opened.

Re 5:1 And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.

In my mind is takes a very ignorant person to say that the sixth seal is opened before the other five? John would have to have deliberately lied about what he saw, if the seals were not opened one after the other as he saw Christ open them.

The post tribbers ignore the order of things and shift the coming of Christ to the last trumpet. The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened. The sixth seal is opened and a great earthquake occurs followed by all the heavenly lights going out plunging the world into darkness. Every eye will see Christ coming down from heaven for his Church. He will stop in the clouds and the angels will gather the Church up to him.

EXCUBITOR=====================================================
How can you argue that the seventh trumpet in Rev is not the last trump of 1 Cor. How can the trumpet in 1 Cor be a last trumpet if it is not part of a series of trumpets. Nowhere are two series of trumpets mentioned.

You said "The bible clearly states that he will return when the sixth seal is opened." but then provide no scriptural evidence to support your statement.
Rev 11:15 explains that the seventh trumpet is when the saints are given their reward as described and when Christ takes over the kingdoms of this world. Now the two witnesses are said to be killed and resurrected during the sixth trumpet (second woe). How can this be if the resurrection occurred at the 6th seal. Also why would the 144000 need to be sealed and protected from physical plagues of the 5th seal if the resurrection was already past and they were resurrected into immortal bodies?

REPLY: You sould know that the trumpet sounded by an angel, standing before the throne, is not the trumpet of God that is sounded by Christ as he descends to get his church. The rapture trumpet is not last in a numbered series of trumpets, but is the last of a kind. There will be no more trumpets sounded for a gathering to Christ. If the seventh trumpet is the trump of God then so are the other six and the text should read that Christ sounds A trumpet of God and not THE trump of God.

The trumpet that Christ sounds is God’s trumpet and He sounds it as he descends into the clouds. An angel standing before the throne of God blows the seventieth trumpet, and he does not loan his trumpet to Christ and call it God’s trumpet. There will not be any more calls to assemble, because we are told we will always be with the Lord after the rapture.

Quote: “You have only been forced to infer this because of your erroneus belief that Christ returns at the 6th seal. HE does not. He returns at the seventh which is the revealing of the seven trumpet plagues the seventh of which includes the return of Christ. The sixth seal is the heavenly signs and wonders in the sky which announce the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is the wrath of God in the seven trumpet plagues.”

HAMMER'S Reply: Don’t ever accuse me of twisting the bible after the quote from you above. When the sixth seal is opened there is a great earthquake and the heavenly lights go out. And immediately after that every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with a trumpet and a shout.
You don’t have to be a scholar to understand the passages that prove that the rapture occurs at the sixth seal, The seven trumpets are judgments not plagues.

Mt 24:21,22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Note: The great tribulation is cut short and that is not at the seventh trumpet, in fact, the first trumpet does not sound until all seven seals are broken. The scroll is the events that must take place and is part of the taking over of earth by Christ.

Mt 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NOTICE: THE RAPTURE OCCURS IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHRIST CUTS SHORT THE TRIBULATION.

Re 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Mt 24:37-39 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The seven trumpets sound and Christ comes riding out of heaven on a white horse. If your false doctrine is correct Christ will descend with the seventh angel and his trumpet, then He would rapture his church and then go back up into heaven and get on his horse and come back to earth.

Note: The cosmic disturbance occurs under the sixth seal and the rapture occurs immediately after the cosmic disturbance. The above scriptures are parallel passages and clearly show that Christ will cut the great tribulation short..

You attributed a statement to me that I in no way made. I never said that the rapture trumpet was in some kind of numbered series. The rapture trumpet is the trumpet of God and it is the last in kind not number.

It is hard for me to believe that an intelligent person like you has to shift things around to fit a doctrine and can’t see that you are deceived, and if you are not deceived you are very ignorant. I suggest you type prewrath in your search browser and learn the only true end time doctrine. Bible fragrances is one of the best sites and they will answer all your questions. [/b]

[quote name='HAMMER' date='Mar 31 2007, 08:01 AM' post='107537']
HAMMER'S Reply: Don’t ever accuse me of twisting the bible after the quote from you above. When the sixth seal is opened there is a great earthquake and the heavenly lights go out. And immediately after that every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with a trumpet and a shout.
You don’t have to be a scholar to understand the passages that prove that the rapture occurs at the sixth seal, The seven trumpets are judgments not plagues.

Mt 24:21,22 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Note: The great tribulation is cut short and that is not at the seventh trumpet, in fact, the first trumpet does not sound until all seven seals are broken. The scroll is the events that must take place and is part of the taking over of earth by Christ.

Mt 24:29-31 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

NOTICE: THE RAPTURE OCCURS IMMEDIATELY AFTER CHRIST CUTS SHORT THE TRIBULATION.

Re 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Mt 24:37-39 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

The seven trumpets sound and Christ comes riding out of heaven on a white horse. If your false doctrine is correct Christ will descend with the seventh angel and his trumpet, then He would rapture his church and then go back up into heaven and get on his horse and come back to earth.

Note: The cosmic disturbance occurs under the sixth seal and the rapture occurs immediately after the cosmic disturbance. The above scriptures are parallel passages and clearly show that Christ will cut the great tribulation short..

You attributed a statement to me that I in no way made. I never said that the rapture trumpet was in some kind of numbered series. The rapture trumpet is the trumpet of God and it is the last in kind not number.

It is hard for me to believe that an intelligent person like you has to shift things around to fit a doctrine and can’t see that you are deceived, and if you are not deceived you are very ignorant. I suggest you type prewrath in your search browser and learn the only true end time doctrine. Bible fragrances is one of the best sites and they will answer all your questions. [/b]


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This is incredible. I thought that I had heard every variety of scenario regarding the return of Christ. Its almost like a pretrib rapture compromise. It seperates the return of Christ to rapture the saints into a seperate event from the descending of the Lord to earth, just like pretribbers do. How erroneus. Who knows who came up with this new idea. Some guy in the 1800's I guess sent to outfox all the Christians that didn't quite fall for the pretrib idea.

I agree that Christ returns after the heavenly signs. It certainly seems as though there is some vision in the heavenly signs which causes men on earth to recognise that it is the Lord which is about to vent his wrath upon the world. In Matt 24 it says something quite unusual. In verse 30 it says that first they see a SIGN of the son of man appearing in the heaven and then after that they actually see the son of man in heaven and hear the great trumpet blast. I suspect that their will be a massive Christian cross emblasoned in the sky however this is just conjecture. It is clear to me that SIGN of the son of man is something other than the son of man himself. I believe that the SIGN appears around the time of the heavenly signs whereas the son of man himself appears some time later AFTER the trumpet plagues have been suffered by the world. The 144 000 must therefore be sealed from the damaging trumpet plagues. If indeed Christ had already returned and raptured them away then there would be no need to seal them from the trumpet plagues now would there? Of course these are all arguments I honed with excellence against pretribbers. Scarcely did I imagine I would have to use them against a post tribber. Still the world is a strange place with every kind of bizarre notion thriving in the melting pot of abominated Christianity.

Now we know from 1 Cor 15 that the trumpet which blasts at the return of the Christ is the LAST trump. Now for something to be THE LAST it means that there cannot be ANY MORE trumpets sounded AFTER it. So what do we see when we look at bible fragrances web site
http://www.biblefragrances.com/studies/whatspw.html
A DIAGRAM which has TRUMPETS SOUNDING AFTER the return of Christ and the rapture of the Saints.
And yet you say that I am the one who is shifting things around. You must be joking.

And then in your previous post you made a statement that the 1 Cor 15 trumpet is a rapture trumpet and that the Revelation trumpets are plague trumpets; as if there are two types of trumpets. So we know that the plague trumpets are a series 1-7. But if the 1 Cor 15 "rapture trumpet" is THE LAST. Then it must be a part of a series must it not? How can something be the Last if it is not the final of a series? For something to be last then it must be preceded by at least one or two others of like kind; making it therefore a series. Surely you can understand the plain logic of this. You are after all an intelligent person aren't you? Why then do you get shirty with me when I state that you are claiming a series of rapture trumpets.

So clearly Christ is summarising events in his account of the heavenly signs and his return of Christ. If he gave every detail then there would have been no need for God to reveal further information to the apostle John. I most certainly deny that I have shifted anything around but I insist that you have by placing Christs return and the rapture to PRIOR the trumpet plagues when clearly 1 Cor 15 tells us that it occurs at the end of the trumpet plagues, but before the seven last plagues.

You also accused me of believing "If your false doctrine is correct Christ will descend with the seven