Here is what I believe about the two witnesses. I am quoting from another post of mine elsewhere in th4e forum:

Shekel says: (orange my highlight) edited 8/15...5:41 am



There is a really long but interesting teaching on this under the Yeshua Code.

http://www.bible-codes.org/old-future-prop...shua-codes.html

Hi everyone,
Just a thought in Revelation the candlesticks are interpreted for us as the churches.
Could the two witnesses that are symbolized as two candlesticks be two churches?
If not what scripture is the interpretation changed to mean something else?

Yes , you are right, but it is a symbol of Israel and the Church. In Zech 4 you will see ONE candlestick being fed from the two olive trees.So in the flesh, there is Israel and the church, but in the Spirit, we are ONE.
1 Then the angel who talked with me returned and wakened me, as a man is wakened from his sleep. 2 He asked me, "What do you see?"
I answered, "I see a solid gold lampstand with a bowl at the top and seven lights on it, with seven channels to the lights. 3 Also there are two olive trees by it, one on the right of the bowl and the other on its left."
Interesting fact: here you have Zerubbabel and Joshua enter the picture as the two anointed ones. So if you have a literal two witnesses , you now have FOUR people who will be the two. Moses, Elijah, Zerubbabel and Joshua.

14Then said he, These are the two sons of oil [Joshua the high priest and Zerubbabel the prince of Judah, the two anointed ones] who stand before the Lord of the whole earth [as His anointed instruments].

Miki, I am only giving you scripture girl. What can I say, I see , what I see, and it is just there in plain sight for those who want to see.
I do not understand the problem why people WANT to see it as two people walking in old Jerusalem.

Finally God is bringing His Word to pass. He is going to save the remnant of Israel, the Church will join them, we will together bring the Good News to a lost world....but some of the church is calling this nonsense.
It boggles my mind
C

Zech. 2:1
I lifted up mine eyes again, and looked, and behold a man with a measuring line in his hand.


How would a temple of flesh and blood be measurerd?

Corney, You said:



Those were Shekels words not mine.

I know, but you highlighted them You should read the whole of Shekels post that you quote.
C

I don't know what you mean by 'I highlighted them'?

I didn't touch his word nor would l without identifying that l had done so.

And l did read the whole thing.

Maybe it's you who aren't making yourself clear.

If anyone adds to someone elses post they need to identify their changes or highlighting.

Revelation is mostly a symbolic book. The Scriptures call the believers the "temple" of God. So here the same prophetic language is used , that is used when the Bible speak of "the two olive trees" or the "candlesticks" There is a section "measured" that is left to the Gentiles . In this parallel, you can see that traditionally that area is open to all. In the spiritual temple, there is a place where they (the unsaved world) cannot come. It is where God dwells. IN His people. No matter how bad the persecution becomes, they cannot enter there.Praise God!!
There is a lot more in that parable. It deals with attitudes within the church, mixing with the world as well as those who keep themselves pure from the world
C

You are right C...I did highlight that. I thought l identified it.
I will go back and do so.

To many quotes and confusion of who said what.

But l did read all of his...pages and pages. I guess l don't understand your beliefs though you talk and talk.
Simplification is best. I know you will try to turn that on me and say l am ever hearing but never understanding instead of thinking that maybe you just aren't making yourself clear.

I'm not mad of mean but just saying that simplicity is best otherwise the only ones who know what you are talking about are the ones that have their own opinions anyway and all they will want to do is argue instead of learn.

Miki, I am not going to turn anything on you. I am listening to what you are saying and will keep it in mind. Sometimes (because we understand something) we expect others to follow without effort.

1.My understanding of the witnesses are based on the olive tree and candlestick scriptures.
2.I use those, because the Bible uses the same language throughout. God does it so we can have a point of reference.
3.Then I try and find scripture in the OT to shine light on the NT (Like the scripture in Zech 4)
4. When there is a "discrepancy" I know the Word does not make mistakes, so the "discrepancy" is pointing to yet another level of the same truth.(ex: Rev 11 has two lampstands and Zech has one....therein is locked a beautiful truth)

plus: I look at the great city in the same way.
1.First I look at all the scriptures mentioning the "great city"
2. I know that God lets us know that Jesus was crucified outside the city for a reason.
3. So it cannot be Jerusalem, that the scripture is talking about in Rev, where the Witnesses are preaching in.
4.The great city is mentioned in other places in Rev, so I compare those , add it to my knowledge of point no 2. and yet again: I get the same answer.

Now I compare it to what I believe :
1. The church in tribulation, remnant of Israel is saved...they are together. (Now I have two witnesses...two lampstands ..Rev 11 and they are ONE in Christ...one lampstand in Zech 4)
2. They are persecuted in the world. (Now the scripture understanding of Babylon/world is added to the test...and it still makes sense)

3. Their body (I have researched this word and found it to be true...it is body and not bodies) will be in the streets of the great city. So I understand from that, that the body of Christ (Jews and us) will be killed in the tribulation, but Jesus will resurrect us all in the Last day.

So , this is the simplest way I can put it.This matter is dealt with in this manner by God for His own reasons. He has hidden it in plain sight.
love C

They are literal but filled with meaning as Shekel has pointed out. Both.

Amen.

I agree with your view of the temple of God. Regarding the 2 witnesses using hermeneutics with the rule of scriptural adjacency we find the candlesticks and olive trees defined thus:

Revelation 11:3: And I will give [power] unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

The Bible defines the two witnesses as the Jewish and Christian church.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Rom 11:24 For if thou [the Gentiles] wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree [the Jews]: how much more shall these [the Jews], which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?


This is not a modern view. Many of the "former age" understood this interpretation of the two witnesses:
Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles ... "
Or more recently Jamieson Faucett and Brown "..., I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

Wasn't the man with a measuring line an angel, and the measuring being done was measuring of Jerusalem?

What about the temple measuring that was done (NOT) in the Revelation Chapter this thread pertains to with the 2 witnesses?

Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=6381

The measuring takes place in heaven (The temple there and those who worship in it .... who are they ?), and on earth, the court "without" a temple .... who tramples it for 42 months ? [Revelation 11]

Hi everyone may I share something I have studied and my findings?
Who might be the two lampstands of Revelation ch 11?
Could the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia be a clue?
I think you might find it very interesting to take a deeper look at the 2 churches.
First the 2 churches are the only two that do not receive a warning from our Lord.
Second it is interesting how our Lord identifies Himself to them, as well as the meaning of their names.
The way the Lord reveals Himself to you, I believe, is pertaining to the relationship you have with Him at that present time and situation.
An example when your sick. He reveals YHVH RAW-FAW meaning: He is the God that heals.
Another consideration is the meanings of names in the Bible often can give more insight.
I just found it interesting learning about the meaning of the two churches names and how the Lord reveals Himself to them:
I would Love to share what I discovered. First we will look at Philadelphia:
The meaning of the name: fond of brethren i.e.fraternal;-love as brethren.
The name is like the character of a true Christian
Second how our Lord identifies Himself:
He shares how He has the key of David, He has open the door. The shares how they have not denied His name.
Now Christians clearly know that He is the Door, they also believe upon His Holy name never denying He is Christ.
He also tells them how He will keep them from the hour of temptation,
In John17 He prayed that we be kept from evil.
He also said let no man take thy crown, born again Christians already have the crown of life through Christ.
Jesus is showing the type of relationship between Himself and us, as Christians.
Now lets look at the church of Smyrna:
The meaning of the name: myrrh (perfumed oil-ointment) a body of troops
In Hebrew: myrrh : as distilling in drops and also, it can mean bitterness.
This is like the character of the Jewish people; soldiers and living in great bitterness and grief.
Next lets look how our Lord identifies Himself to them.
He identifies Himself as the first and the last which the Jewish people could understand from
The old Testament for in the old Testament it says this very thing; next He identifies Himself as the Resurrected, By this, He testifying to them I Am Yahshua God's salvation i.e. The Resurrection.
He speaks of their tribulation how they are poor , maybe refering to the fact that they have not yet known The Messiah,(but thou art rich) maybe testifing to them that their Messiah has come.
He also said that they would have tribulation 10 days as in reference perhaps to the
10 days of awe a time of the Jewish high Holy days which the Jewish call a time of judgement.
Last He remarks on the fact they have not the crown of life yet but He will give it to them if they are faithful.
In closing it is remarkable to me how the 2 churches seem to symbolic of the Christians and the Jews.
I think they are the 2 witnesses before the God of the earth.
As Moses the law giver and Aaron the Priest, or like Moses the Law giver and Elijah the Prophet.
On the Mount of transfiguration there were 3 Moses symbolic (law - Old testament) Elijah symbolic (Prophet New testament) Jesus (the fullness of both) Here we have a picture of the two folds being made one in Christ.
Could these 2 churches be the 2 witnesses in the book of Revelation chapter. 11?
2 lampstands and the 2 olive trees
(read in Romans 11 to see who the olive trees are, read in the book of Revelation chapter 1
to see who the lampstands are.
what do you think about it.
References : > The Bible and:the Bible concordance
Peace to you,
TruthSeeker

I think this would be a reasonable explaination for the 2 candlesticks, and some understand the verse this way, but it leaves the reference to the 2 olive trees without a home doesn't it?

My thoughts about the 42 months and the measuring.
I think that the Holy Temple are the believers that are here literaly.
The court without are the unbelievers ,the Holy city is Jerusalem where our Lord walked.
This Jerusalem here is not speaking of the New Holy Jerusalem for it has not come down.
However when it does come down it will be perfect without blimish because it is complete i.e. the whole body is now one with Christ Who is the Temple in the New Jerusaelm.

Rev 11:2
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

After reading the verse above ,You might consider this measuring in Rev 11 could relate to the book of Ezek Ch 9

Ezek 9:4-5
4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

To me this in Ezek, could be seen as a type a type of measuring.
And speaking about the forty two months:
Looking at the 2 chapters in the Book of Revelation chapter 11 and chapter 13 you can find the 3 and a half year time frame.
Chapter 11 is known as the witnesses chapter. In this chapter it shows and tells whats going on in the life and veiws of the witnesses as well as their actions .
Many people may look at Rev. 13 as a seperate time of events however it is simatianiously happening during chapter 11 only it is giving the life and veiws and the actions of the beast and the false prophet.
In other words its like looking at two rooms and watching 2 groups of people in the same house of time.
Keep in mind Rev 11 it states that the 2 witnesses are killed, also keep in mind after the false prophet rises is when they declare those who do not worship the beast should be killed.
I believe this is when the witnesses are killed.
Many people see the 2 witnesses as being killed alone. Is it possible the 2 primary witnesses (2 leaders) in Jerusalem are killed along with many others that stand with them a cloud of witnesses so to speak remember they rise up in a cloud unto the Lord.
I want to show you one reason I think there could be many killed. If you look in the book of Psalms ch 79;
Ps 79:1-3
1 O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
2 The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
3 Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.

This is simular to Rev 11

Rev 11:7-9
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

Again in Psalms 79;

Ps 79:11
11 Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die;
12 And render unto our neighbours sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord.

Psalms 79:11 can be compared to Rev. 11:11

Rev 11:11
11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

Psalms 79:12 compares to Rev 11:12.13

Psalms 79:12 And render unto our neighbours sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord.

Rev 11:12-13
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand:

Maybe 2 witnesses are part of 1000 people which die and God's judgement of sevenfold would be 7000.

Just something to think about.
Peace to you,
TruthSeeker

There's much acurate symbolism behind the two witness but they are literal also.
Moses---Elijah

MattHenry,
You need to consider my whole post not only part.
If you will consider that in Romans 11 we Christians are grafted in the Jewish olive tree (home sweet home)
The two lampstands and the two olive trees are both the Christians and the Jews.
I am just showing that the Christians are the lampstand and the olive tree and the Jews are the lampstand and the olive tree and my post you quoted from is what i based it on.
In my opinion

Peace to you,
TruthSeeker

The two witnesses are "prophets" [Revelation 11:9]. All believing Jews and Gentiles are not prophets. The olive tree is symbolic for the oil of the spirit that fills the lampstand (the Jewish menorah). These two Israelite prophets (lampstands) will be filled and controlled by the Holy Spirit. It is true that the Church has the symbol of the candle stick, but neither of these two prophets (two humans) are the Church.

I would also suggest that one research the existance of the temple of God that exists in heaven, not on the earth ..... there are several references to this temple in Revelation and specifically in chapter 11. This temple is not the Church, but those that worship therein are the Church and they are there during the time when the court (the temple mount) "without" the temple, on earth, is controlled by the beast and followers for 42 months.

I use the language of prophecy wherein a day=year for such passages. This verse is demonstrated in this thread: http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=6381
And the mathematically interlocking perfection of Daniel and John's prophicies more recently here: http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=7586

Maybe if you read my post about the measuring the Temple and 42 months it may help you see what my view is more clearly.
Prophets are those who speak the word of God, which both groups do.Just a little side note sons and daughters shall prophesy to me that is what prophets do. That being said I am not againts two people being the leaders of the two groups.
For an example there are leaders of churches even though Christ being the head.
So its not far out to say the witnesses of Revelation could be in a simular way, two main speakers along with other supporting people.
If you read both post maybe you will see what I mean.
To worship there in I think its to look at those who truly worship in the heart.
Paul said we are the body of Christ , correct, and If Christ is the Temple we are also the Temple.
Reseach the word Temple in all the Books of Paul everytime he spoke of a Temple he was reffering to us the body of Christ.
There are two times he spoke of the Temple that I will make a side note to.
Once he spoke of the Temple building but only for a comparision to us, the body of Christ.
The other he spoke of the Temple in 2 thes 2 , which to me is also reffering to the body, going by the fact Paul always reffered to us as the Temple as I mentioned eariler.
I try to stay with what the Bible interperates something to be.
I am not closed minded thats what we are supposed to do is seek in the Word for Truth.
Could you show me where in scripture this literal Temple is built?
That might help me uderstand what is supporting your view better.
One more thing Christ spoke of His body as the Temple, yet the below statement shows that some thought He spoke of a building. So we should consider that also.

John 2:19-21
19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

peace to you,
TruthSeeker

I did miss "In closing it is remarkable to me how the 2 churches seem to symbolic of the Christians and the Jews." as you labored things so through the post volume. Sorry, my mistake.
My conclusion was based simply by using the rule of adjacent hermeneutics. One simply has to do a search and see if the Bible defines a term and if so if the definition fits textually.

And it's not like we aren't in good company with our view:
Many of the "former age" understood this interpretation of the two witnesses:
Matthew Henry: "Some think these two witnesses are Enoch and Elias, who are to return to the earth for a time: others, the church of the believing Jews and that of the Gentiles... "
Or more recently Jamieson Faucett and Brown "..., I think the twofold Church, Jewish and Gentile, may be meant by the two candlesticks represented by the two witnesses ... "

Not more clearly. It looked more like spiritualizing away and conjecture about a passage, that otherwise speaks with mathematical and textual perfection, to prove the truth - with certainty - of prophecy in God's Holy Word, so many centuries after it was written.

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=6381
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=7586

(Epe.2:19-22) So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone; in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

Numbers and measurements in the Word has very specific meanings. Just ask our friend Shekel and he will tell you all about it.
There cannot ever be another Holy Place built by the hands of men. That era has come and gone. We are not moving backwards, if that had worked for God, He would have kept it. But , we are in the NT. Praise God...we moved from the letter (OT) into the Spirit (NT)

Guys, please just read your Bibles and you will see. We have been fed a lot of dogma by a lot of people. We all grew up with it. Now, just read what it says in the SUM of the Word. Put the scriptures together! They make sense.

Come on, its almost time. Lets realise WE are the temple. The Bible tells us that directly.


(2 Thes.1:10) when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be marvelled at in all them that believed (because our testimony unto you was believed) in that day.

Notice that He is glorified IN his saints, they are still on earth and not in heaven, for they are in THAT day, and they are marvelled at, ...so the ones who marvel does not have Christ IN them. They are amazed at this temple of God, where He is IN His people. Like the tent in the wilderness with Moses, God moves where His people moves. That is scripture!

We have NOT seen that day yet.
C

Cornelius, whose post are you replying to? It helps if you at least partially quote.
One only has to do a word search of - temple of god - to learn that we are it. http://blueletterbible.org/index.html

1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

MattHenry and C
Just to make my view clear and simple ,I believe we are the Temple.
I have never debated with people I am in agreement with before.......or a least I think we agree.....

Peace to you both,
TruthSeeker

Scripture agrees with us in no uncertain terms as the 4 verses above make clear.




You're right. It is amazing the pile of doody the Church bought in the 20th century.
When you point to Alcazar and Ribera/Darby eyes simply scale over.
Nobody can deny that futurist doctrine was not held by any church prior to the late 19th early 20th century still they persist. My futurist pastor even had the nerve to preach "if it's new it isn't true and if it's true it isn't new", can you imagine that!

The result will be tragic.
Some believing their judgment will be deferred, so they maybe put off repenting a little longer (not even thinking about a car wreck), perhaps until the "7-year" "future" tribulation. Then they will be convinced and then they will repent after they are "left behind". There will be only one chance, however, and their church doctrine will have condemned them for eternity.
Perhaps others not recognizing their Savior's return because they were supposed to be raptured 7 years before.
Non-pre-tribbers in disbelief because they believe His return is at least 3-1/2 years away because the temple hasn't been rebuilt yet. Even more amazingly they believe animal sacrifices would somehow have a place post Cross! What the heck do they think Jesus died for?

Still others believe it was all over and done with by 70AD, in spite of God's people returning to our covenant land, and in spite of 1.5 billion antichrists, that murder saints by the hundreds EVERY DAY TODAY, that label themselves 666, follow a false prophet and have for 1400 years, and even built an abomination on the temple mount. Preterist doctrine (Alcazar) should have at least gone to the trash heap in 1948.
What does it take?

False doctrine has made it so the Church cannot even recognize that God has lifted the seal from the book of Daniel in this time of the end. The perfection of prophetic mathematics is unassailable, yet it doesn't fit preterist or futurist doctrine so apparently they must believe it to be some kind of mathematical accident.

And if you want to know what I really think....

God bless.

God has a temple in heaven as well and proper application has to be made. The measured temple is in heaven and is a place with those worshiping therein. The court (temple mount area ) "without" the temple is on earth (the earthly temple has not been there since the first century and will not be rebuilt until the millennial rule of the Lord after Armageddon. Ezekiel 40-48 has the blue prints) and will be trampled (ruled) by the beast and followers (Gentiles) for 42 months. The individual believer is the temple of God on earth today, but the temple in Revelation 11 is God's temple in heaven, and it is a place.


Rev 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

Rev 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Rev 7:15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Rev 11:1
And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Rev 11:19
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Rev 13:6
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

Rev 15:5
And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Rev 15:6
And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.

Rev 15:8
And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

Rev 16:1
And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

Rev 11:19
And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Lexicon Results for naos (Strong's 3485)
Greek for 3485

Pronunciation Guide
naos {nah-os'}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 4:880,625
from a primary naio (to dwell)
Part of Speech
n m
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
3) metaph. the spiritual temple consisting of the saints of all ages joined together by and in Christ
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 46
AV - temple 45, a shrine 1; 46



Lexicon Results for skene (Strong's 4633)
Greek for 4633

Pronunciation Guide
skene {skay-nay'}
TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 7:368,1040
apparently akin to 4632 and 4639

Part of Speech
n f
Outline of Biblical Usage
1) tent, tabernacle, (made of green boughs, or skins or other materials)
2) of that well known movable temple of God after the pattern of which the temple at Jerusalem was built
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 20
AV - tabernacle 19, habitation 1; 20

One thing to note is that Revelation moves back and forth from actions in heaven to actions on the earth as the prophecy unfolds.

I was prophetically answering Stephen

Hi Stephen,

So your saying that the temple mount area will be trampled but there will be no earthly temple rebuilt until the beginning of the 1000 years? So trampled just means it will be occupied? It's already occupied...? Where are the sacrifices going to be that the anti-christ stops?

Romans 12:1
[ Living Sacrifices to God ] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service.

Hope that this answers your question.
In Christ,
Chris

I have spoken to different Jews about the blood sacrifice.
I said the blood sacrifice was for redemption for sins.
Then since the Temple no longer exist how can they be redeemed before God? (Which it was through Christ, but the Jews reject Jesus so I wonder how they dealt with their sin?)
They said prayers took the place of the blood sacrifice.
If you think about it Daniel did not have a way to sacrifice either and he prayed, I believe 3 times a day.
Even today the Jews go to the western wall and pray 3 times a day.
So taking away the daily may have something to do with not allowing the Jews to western wall to pray, since they believe that it was a replacement for sacrifice when there is no Temple.
Bottom line is preventing them from offering what they believe to be a daily sacrifice at the wall would be taking away to them their daily sacrifice.

Peace,
TruthSeeker

I thought the Sanhedrin were going to rebuild the temple and they're getting all the items including the Red Heifer ready.

One historical sense of "tred" or "trodden" under foot refers to when a conquering army took an empire, the army's leader would put the former ruler on all fours, and place his foot on the guy's neck, as a symbol of his conquest and to provide a public spectacle and display of his victory.

In the sense of the following verse the Holy City was conquered by Islam and was trodden by gentiles until the Israelis retook the holy city in 1967 - never to be "trodden by" or conquered by or controlled by gentiles again. The time of the gentiles is fulfilled.

The holy city of Jerusalem was conquered by an Islamic army in 639. This resulted in Jerusalem's desolation through exile of both Judaism and Christianity, as it heralded Islamization of the holy city.

The symbolic pin date provided in prophecy is 688 AD - the year construction began on the blasphemous abomination - the Dome of the Rock. Interestingly, as an aside, though the Jews control Jerusalem, a deal was made to allow Muslims control of the temple mount - God's footstool. The Muslims maintain it's state of desolation to this day through anti-prayer rules.

The pin date of 688 is arrived at by both Daniel and John's prophecies, when we employ the language of prophecy of a day=year.
Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.

For example:

Revelation 11:2: But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty [and] two months.

Jerusalem was trodden by, or controlled by, Gentiles until the Israelis retook the city in 1967. There is an average of 30.44 days in a month, multiplied by 42 months = 1278.5 days (as years). Subtracting this from 1967 we arrive at … 688.5.

Further study of the above verse may well demonstrate God's wonderfully wry sense of humor. The Solomonic Temple was built over a threshingfloor, and on that bedrock the Arc of the Covenant, or Holy or Holies, was kept. It is obvious that this stone, in the Dome of the Rock, would never have served as a threshingfloor as recovery of grain would have been impossible. Today the little gazebo aptly named the Dome of the Tablets, or Dome of the Spirits likely covers the smooth flat threshingfloor of the old Temple site. The Solomonic Temple - "Court of the Gentiles" where even unwashed slaves were allowed - is where the Dome of the Rock was constructed. The old Eastern Gate lines up perfectly with the little "dome of the tablets". In other words the Dome of the Rock was built in the court outside of the Solomonic temple site, that was given to the Gentiles!

More on this verse on this thread: http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=6381

Hi MattHenry,
I found your history lesson very interesting.
I would like your view on something, if you don't mind.
You know I believe we are the Temple of God, so you don't have to cover that portion unless you feel it will make your answer flow better.
My question to you is what is your view on the section below?

II Th 2:1-6
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
(KJV)

I think your view would be an interesting read .
p.s. Just so you know, I don't believe we are going to be raptured away either.
Peace to you,
TruthSeeker

Yep..Miki, there will be a third temple..and I heard the same thing including the part about the Red Heifer.

I am usually reluctant to answer questions regarding individual passages because what it generally amounts to is someone asking me to squeeze and entire linear-historic understanding of prophecy, through the filter of their eschatological doctrine, through the doorway of a verse or two.

That being said, I have addressed this particular subject in posts in the past so I would be honored to share it with you and thank you for asking.

"that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition"

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first,

Falling away first. While some Christians are looking for some future falling away, I am over 50 years old. When I was a young lad in Detroit city parents worked hard to put food on the table and dress their families, and socializing was a far less common event than today, aside from a stroll up and down the block and maybe visiting with neighbors by happenstance on their porch. Norman Rockwell was painting images of our American landscape - not - contriving a bunch of phony fiction as it might appear to today's youth.

Generally folks took their kids to church and shared their faith with others. Many family lives revolved around their Church and Church groups. Everybody, whether Christian or Jew, did their best to at least appear to be decent upright members of the community. Leave it to Beaver was a prime-time show. It taught kids valuable life lessons which were especially important in homes where the parents were not particularly equipped to do this. The show also taught parenting skills by exploring issues and circumstances that might come up in every day life. It warmed the hearts of both the young and old.

Today's prime time is American Idol, where the whole world gets to idolize young singers. I recently heard where at basketball games they invite former famous players that the fans idolized previously, to appear in the flesh for their fans to idolize anew. Those that don't like sports might defer to Desperate Housewives or Sex (sluts) in the City. Other idols some covet include the next door neighbors Porsche, his fancy boat, or his bigger-than-your house (idol of wood and stone).

Church attendance is down in many denominations, like the Episcopal church, who ordained a guy who had previously divorced his wife and moved out of the home of his wife and 2 daughters to move in with his homosexual squeeze, and was still in that relationship when ordained. He checked himself into an alcohol rehab center a couple of years later. Churches in Europe have been dead for decades. Many have been converted into Mosques. Religious "practice" for many that call themselves Christians is limited to shuffling into Church on Sunday, or maybe just on Christmas and/or Easter.

1948 heralded the founding of the World Council of Churches which has used church money to prop up tinhorn communist dictators to oppress their citizens. 1947 heralded the Everson decision or so-called "separation of church and state" which concept had only been brought before the court twice in the 150 years prior to Everson. Close on the heels of of Everson came McCollum in 1948 which ended religious instruction in school.
Matt 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
1948 heralded the end of the Christian age - the testimony of the two witnesses - and the beginning of the "time of the end".

Yet strangely enough many Christians are looking for a falling away at some point in the future - when they are smack-dab in the middle of it - today. Indeed many don't see the falling away because the "man of sin" the "son of perdition" is busily at work in them - God's temple - while their attention is turned toward some distant past, or future boogeyman "Antichrist". Let's use adjacent hermeneutics to ponder how this might be. How about the Blue Letter Bible: http://blueletterbible.org/index.html

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

When we search "man of sin" we only find the above verse. But for "son of perdition" we find the above verse along with one more:

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Jesus is speaking about the apostles here and not loosing any except - the son of perdition - Judas. Now "that man of sin" who will be revealed, from the line in our study, is "the son of perdition". Should we consider that as being as narrowly defined as Judas? I suppose we could, but certainly Judas wasn't the only one lost to perdition on the earth as Jesus spoke His words. Might we then consider a broader sense of all of the folks that were lost to perdition? Let's proceed further and see if we can find some clues.

2Th 2:4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Sitteth in the temple of God. Hmmm… Let's do an adjacent hermeneutic search. In Matthew we see two verses regarding the Solomonic Temple that was eventually torn down by the Romans in 70 AD. But notice the next few, and closest, verses to our target verse:

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Cr 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

2Cr 6:16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Can it be explained any better than that? So now our verse has been further clarified. Believers with the true circumcision of the heart are the temples of God as the Bible explains three times above. So can we expect to have Judas stuffed into our bodies, or some "spirit of Judas" (which might certainly be closer), or should we consider perhaps something a little broader? If we do a search of "perdition", we find 8 verses in scripture total, which make it pretty easy to understand that it describes the end-state of those who are not saved. Free Dictionary defines it "Loss of the soul; eternal damnation."

Now since a search reveals that Jesus is often referred to as the "Son of man" and indeed is the "Son of God", who might qualify as the "son of perdition", other than Satan (and Judas of course)? And who "opposeth" God - more than Satan, and the men who Satan has put the spirit of antichrist in? So, clearly, Satan sits in the temple of God. But how does he "exalteth himself" above God in that capacity?

Well how about terms like "self-made man"? Or, "I don't need any of that superstitious religion stuff. As an atheist I am not only smarter than that, but I am better than that! Christians are weak minded fools." Shirley McClane even had the gaul to declare in a book that she and each person was their own - The I Am. Does it get any more specific than that?

Regarding the next closest, though less appropriate (a vision) hermeneutic, the next closest verse for "temple of God" is Revelation 11:1 which is a reference back to the Solomonic Temple as I have shown in the posts.

2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

And here Jesus confirms that He told us these things when He was still here, and since the only other reference we have to "son of perdition" is indeed in Jesus own words in John 17:12 (above), shouldn't we be satisfied that we did in fact find the right explanation? Unless, of course, if it doesn't fit in with our doctrine.

IN CONCLUSION

I believe that among 20th century false eschatology's many disservices to Christians, and victories for the enemy, is in the enemy getting them to look somewhere over the horizon for the man of sin rather than taking a good introspective look into their own hearts.

Another disservice is that they are looking to the future for some boogeyman "Antichrist" when there are 1.5 billion antichrists in Islam alone, without even counting atheists and others. Even as Muslims mark themselves with the number of "the beast" (the Islamic countries of the Middle East) http://www.66619.org/thequran.htm http://www.66619.org/ , and "a man" (the false prophet Mohammed), Christians have to turn their heads away from these simple truths because the truth doesn't conform to their doctrines.

Amazingly all Christians believe that First Coming prophecy in the Old Testament developed as that age transpired, but not one in a hundred today can imagine that Second Coming prophecy would transpire in the same way.

To punctuate this point, in the 20th century, Protentastism divided into two camps, preterists and partial preterists, who believe that virtually all of Revelation was fulfilled by 70 AD and futurists who believe that virtually none of the prophecies in Revelation can come to pass until some "future" period. STUNNINGLY IT IS A FACT THAT EACH OF THESE CAMPS MUST NECESSARILY BELIEVE THAT THE OTHER CAMP IS VIRTUALLY 100% WRONG REGARDING THEIR ESCHATOLOGY.

Even if it feels a little uncomfortable I hope this helped.
Just a guy standing in the gap with the Sword of the Spirit,
Matt

Miki,

"So your saying that the temple mount area will be trampled but there will be no earthly temple rebuilt until the beginning of the 1000 years? So trampled just means it will be occupied? It's already occupied...? Where are the sacrifices going to be that the anti-christ stops?"

>Israel will be invaded and occupied by the beast for 42 months (1,260 days) during the last half of the 70th week decreed for the nation. [Revelation 13][Zechariah 14]

>He will attempt to erase all of the Lord's connection with Israel, historical and future and will add the nation to his Middle Eastern dominion. [Daniel 8:9-12, 8:23-25, 9:26-27]

>He will replace the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, with his own god who is Satan and he will claim to be the human manifestation of his god. [Daniel 11:36-39] [2Thessalonians 2:3-12] [Revelation 13:4-8]

>He will stop the remnant of Israel's worship at the base of the temple mount at least, (specifically at the time of the end when the nation is under its greatest pressure) which they do today. The visions place this routing at the time of the invasion at midweek (middle of the 70th week). Those worshiping there will flee as the Lord has stated and they will be protected in the Jordanian wilderness during the same period of the beast's rule over Israel for the next 42 months (1,260 days). [Matthew 24:15][Revelation 12:6, 14]

>Some think that the remnant will begin the historical sacrificial worship during the period and believe that in order to do this they will have to have the temple re-built on the mount. Some think that they will perform the rites at the base of the mount without the temple, or in some hidden place underneath. There are no instructions recorded in Scripture for them to re-build the temple before or during the 70th week, and in fact Revelation 11:2 states the court "without the temple" which is to be given over to Israel's enemies (Gentiles) for 42 months.

>I would say, no temple, and I doubt that there will be a reinstitution of the historical sacrifical rites. There are ultra-orthodox groups in Israel that want to do these things now, and some may try at the time. The actual remnant who turn to the Lord will not do these things because they will know and understand what salvation is all about. What ever will be going on in the form of worship will be stopped and eliminated by the beast when he invades the nation. The great outdoor synagogue lies at the base of the western wall today and this is where Israel goes to worship. The beast will destroy anything that connects Israel with a relationship of the nation's past.

>The temple mount and court are technically part of Israel today. They captured it in the 6 day war. They then allowed Islam to keep Islamic control over the mosques that are there. This is the current situation. When the beast and his followers come they will invade, conquer, and confiscate Jerusalem, the mount, and the land. This is the trampling that will last for 42 months. The Lord's two prophets will operate in Israel while it is occupied, and they will be protected during their service.

>This trampling (occupation of His city, the mount, and His land) will kindle the Lord's wrath and He will come and vanquish the occupiers at Armageddon. Then He will return the kingdom to the remnant of Israel.

Tell me Jackie and Miki. Was Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross so imperfect and incomplete that the Jews would need to resume animal sacrifices?

Animal sacrifice wasn't even what saved the Jews in the Old Testament times, so why would you figure they would need it after the Cross?

I don't think God would allow the animal sacrifice again, it would be an abomnination to Him after sacrificing His only begotten Son.

Peace,
TruthSeeker

Thanks Matt for that previous post of yours about the son of perdition.
I agree with you. At this moment we have the "son of perdition" walking amongst us in the church. Judas walked with Jesus and the Disciples, until he left . The same thing is happening today. That same spirit is in the church, again walking with us. (Judas even healed the sick with the rest when Jesus sent them out two by two.{witnesses}) So we can expect the same betrayal again, for there is nothing new under the sun.

I had to throw out my old doctrine this year and admit my error in believe. God opened my eyes to see in the spirit and not the letter.Here, the letter WILL kill, because it will leave those of the letter blind until it is too late
C

It is amazing. When we read Revelation Chapter 2 we find the word overcometh used over and over. This isn't about overcoming Satan. This is about overcoming the Church - doctrine. There are more than a few pastors around preaching what they know to be untrue but since their denomination holds doctrine they cannot tresspass against it and so continue to tell a lie. Kinda brings 2 Thess a little more to life doesn't it? Me too. Last spring. I was steeped in Jack Van Impe for over a decade. I attend(ed?) Calvary Chapel most recently, after overcoming the Episcopal Church as it sank further into apostasy a few years ago, with the Robinson ordination (I wasn't comfortable there (nor was I saved at the time) in the first place as it was a compromise with my raised-Catholic wife). Please read Skolfield for an interesting point of view. This is a Bible study, not a doctrine. I can guarantee you it will bless you as richly as it has me. Here is a page with several papers as well as The False Prophet http://www.ellisskolfield.com/downloadable-books.shtml It is really fun to be able to go to "the former age and their fathers" to find confirmation of a linear-historic view of prophecy. This was how the reformers viewed prophecy. There are probably more than a few that believe that if you simply stand up in front of your Church, and say the "sinners prayer", that you are saved, with no repentance at all. I don't want to minimize this exercise since at one of these "alter calls" is when the Lord chose me - but it would seem because I was ready to repent. I had done it a few times prior to that with no result, like in front of the TV with Jack and as a kid at Sunday School. Imagine the horror of those counting on "judgement deferred". Putting off repenting until after their loved ones are "raptured" thinking they will get a second chance during some "future" tribulation!

I will be humbly honored to remain my Brother John's fellow partaker in THE tribulation.

"Imagine the horror of those counting on "judgement deferred". Putting off repenting until after their loved ones are "raptured" thinking they will get a second chance during some "future" tribulation!"

>Can you expand on this statement ? Not certain what you are saying here.

"I will be humbly honored to remain my Brother John's fellow partaker in THE tribulation"

>But if you die before then you will escape the coming judgment .... correct ?

(NASB): Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance {which are} in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

(Greek/English Interlinear (tr) NT) Revelation 1:9 | egw <1473> {I} iwannhV <2491> {JOHN,} o <3588> {WHO} kai <2532> {ALSO} adelfoV <80> {BROTHER} umwn <5216> {YOUR} kai <2532> {AND} sugkoinwnoV <4791> {FELLOW PARTAKER} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} qliyei <2347> {TRIBULATION} kai <2532> {AND} en <1722> {IN} th <3588> {THE} basileia <932> {KINGDOM} kai <2532> {AND} upomonh <5281> {ENDURANCE} ihsou <2424> {OF JESUS} cristou <5547> {CHRIST,}....

You can see that the word "the" is a definite article here. The Christian era - from the Cross up to and through us - is THE tribulation. Not John Darby's fantasy.


Don't be silly. I can tell you there are more than a few spouses that are being dragged into church by their significant other that remain unrepentant but figure that after their spouse is raptured they will repent during John Darby's "7-year" "future" tribulation. The same type do not imagine that they will die in a car wreck today or have a heart attack the same minute. I must admit though that before I repented I had a couple of thoughts that wandered along these lines.

MH,

"Don't be silly. I can tell you there are more than a few spouses that are being dragged into church by their significant other that remain unrepentant but figure that after their spouse is raptured they will repent. The same type do not imagine that they will die in a car wreck today or have a heart attack the same minute. I must admit though that before I repented I had a couple of thoughts that wandered along these lines"

>No intent to be silly. Your answer leads me to believe that you consider the Lord's hour of trial to be in process from the first century and still ongoing .... correct ? Do you actually know people who plan only to repent if someone they know is "raptured" ? Do you think they will ever experience their plan ?