[quote=ethel,Jan 20 2006, 02:22 PM]
Excellent insight. Where did you get your information on the witnesses? Elijah is female and Enoch is male. Both, right now are very reluctant messangers. God is good. Posted info today on same. You can talk to me at ashethel2004@yahoo.com. Interested in your personal research into these two people. Blessings.


Welcome ethel,
How do you know they are male and female. Where did you get your info from?
I'm just curious and I have never read about the witnesses being male and female in the Bible.
Kim

Hello Kim. Did my research, very long story. Very good question. As you know him/her is interchangeable in the bible. We need a female in this day and age anyway. God never meant for all the "men" to be in charge of "everything."

I was looking for the longer posting I put on today but don't see it yet. Do they have to review it before its on the posting board. I'm new to this kind of thing and don't know how it works really. Blessings.


[quote=kim48,Jan 20 2006, 03:02 PM]
[quote=ethel,Jan 20 2006, 02:22 PM]
Excellent insight. Where did you get your information on the witnesses? Elijah is female and Enoch is male. Both, right now are very reluctant messangers. God is good. Posted info today on same. You can talk to me at ashethel2004@yahoo.com. Interested in your personal research into these two people. Blessings.


Welcome ethel,
How do you know they are male and female. Where did you get your info from?
I'm just curious and I have never read about the witnesses being male and female in the Bible.
Kim
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Ethel,
The quote that you thought came from Pamela was her quoting me quoting somebody who hasn't posted here for a while. Sorry it gets confusing. It was a person named tribulation-witness who I was quoting, and Pamela was quoting me quoting them. But rather than using email, I'd love to hear whatever you have to say on the subject right here! I love this topic and it's rare to find somebody who wants to talk about it. Having you and hannah here is great! I hope you don't mind me jumping into the conversation--I just wanted to clear up the confusion over the quoted stuff. And welcome to the discussion--I'm very glad you're here! I'm looking forward to reading anything you have to say!
Debbie

[quote=ethel,Jan 20 2006, 04:21 PM]
Hello Kim. Did my research, very long story. Very good question. As you know him/her is interchangeable in the bible. We need a female in this day and age anyway. God never meant for all the "men" to be in charge of "everything."

I was looking for the longer posting I put on today but don't see it yet. Do they have to review it before its on the posting board. I'm new to this kind of thing and don't know how it works really. Blessings.


[quote=kim48,Jan 20 2006, 03:02 PM]
[quote=ethel,Jan 20 2006, 02:22 PM]
Excellent insight. Where did you get your information on the witnesses? Elijah is female and Enoch is male. Both, right now are very reluctant messangers. God is good. Posted info today on same. You can talk to me at ashethel2004@yahoo.com. Interested in your personal research into these two people. Blessings.


Welcome ethel,
How do you know they are male and female. Where did you get your info from?
I'm just curious and I have never read about the witnesses being male and female in the Bible.
Kim
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All I want to know is what chapter and verse cause maybe I miss it some where. I have search and cant find where the Bible where it states male or female.

I do find where God DID mean what he said in the Bible. If I believe in one verse than I have to believe it all. I cant pick and choose what I want to believe in.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is a man.
I may not like it but thats the way it is. I plan on talking to Eve when I get to Heaven and have a chat with her if God will allow!
This is a topic on the witnesses so I'll kept it there but I would like the scriptures please.
Thank you
Kim

Ethel,
If your longer post was a new topic that you started, it will take longer to appear than a regular post in an existing topic. That's probably why it isn't showing up yet. But I'm really curious about what you have to say, on everything you mentioned. I always thought they would be two men, but I want to hear what you have to say. And yes, be prepared with chapter and verse! Take care,
Debbie

Ethel mentions the Lost Tribes. I remembered hearing about some DNA testing done here in South Africa on the Temba tribe and that the Cohen DNA matched. Now this is a total black tribe, with an oral tradition of Jewish ancestry.

I know its off topic, but just for interest, here is a VERY interesting link where all is revealed. Its long but make a cup of tea and read. Its well worth while.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/2706israel.html

Uh...I never said the two witnesses were here. So you are mistaken ethel....I don't think they are here. I do believe they are Enoch and Elijah because they never suffered death, they were just taken up....So, re read and find out who said that....I don't think their here because they have and are being prepared for their work to come......You don't need to be on earth when you being personally prepared by the KING of KINGS and LORD of LORDS....This is one subject I have not sought out yet so I don't have the authority to speak on it.....

The two witnesses are here now but they are not reluctant. They are waiting for their ministry time to be right. Just like John the Baptist didn't start his ministry of repentance and baptism until it was time and Christ didn't start His ministry until it was time. The two witnesses are not male and female because there is no Male nor Female, Greek nor Jew, bond nor free. They will come in the Spirit of Elijah, Moses, Noah, Jonah, Enoch, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, John, Christ. They are the two olive trees which is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel “Not by power or by might but by My Spirit says the Lord of Hosts, Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the finish With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' " When they begin their ministry you will behold them displaying the mark of the servants of God with their sackcloth and bald heads and a rope tied around their waist. Because in that day the Lord God of hosts Called for weeping and for mourning, For baldness and for girding with sackcloth. And so it shall be: Instead of a sweet smell there will be a stench; Instead of a sash, a rope; Instead of well-set hair, baldness; Instead of a rich robe, a girding of sackcloth; And this branding will replace the beauty of a dieing world for those who will escape and move through the purging furnace into the kingdom of God. And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord, "That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The Lord is my God.' " each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you." "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."*

And the Lord said But you, son of man, hear what I say to you. Do not be rebellious like that rebellious house; open your mouth and eat what I give you." Now when I looked, there was a hand stretched out to me; and behold, a scroll of a book was in it. Then He spread it before me; and there was writing on the inside and on the outside, and written on it were lamentations and mourning and woe. This is the little book from the writers ink horn the book of revelation saying "Go, take the little book which is open in the hand of the messenger who stands on the sea and on the earth.” So I went to the messenger and said to him, "Give me the little book." And he said to me, "Take and eat it; and it will make your stomach bitter, but it will be as sweet as honey in your mouth.” Then I took the little book out of the messengers hand and ate it, and it was as sweet as honey in my mouth. But when I had eaten it, my stomach became bitter. And he said to me, "You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings." This Scroll, Book, was delivered to your church leaders in 1985 by the Lord’s messenger Charles.


Spirit Covenant

Very cool! Thanks for the link!

Are you speaking of two people that you know? Just curious. I know Charles Martin has been on the forum before (screen name Elijah) and was back recently but did not stay long.

I only know them through the Spirit of God. I couldn't tell you what they are doing now or where they are. I don't even know where you got the name Martin at. I know that the servant of the Lord, Charles, delivered the Word of the Lord to many, many churches on all continents and that he is the messenger in rev 10 but I don't know if He is one of the two witnesses. God has awakened many servants for the day of wrath and the Lord will give to each what they need to fulfill His purpose. But like John the Baptist didn’t know that he was Elijah and Christ didn’t know the day or the hour of His return. God has reserved the rite to limit the messengers knowledge to fulfill his purpose. Perfection in Christ does not require that you know everything.


Spirit Covenant

Spirt Covenant
Who is this Charles and how do you know he is the messenger in Rev. 10? Where do I find info on this Charles?
Kim

He is a servant of Christ. I know through the Spirit and I don't know what info you are asking for. I have already given all the info I know. I can summarize His message since I know what it is all about, but I have never read it or seen it written so it would not be delivered the way that he wrote it. His message tells about the coming of the two Witnesses, What the Lord is requiring of His servants in the day of great tribulation and wrath. What will happen from the time the two witnesses start their ministry until the Lord descends from heaven back to earth. You can learn all from the Spirit of God all you have to do is ask God for His Spirit. This is not the days of the first Church where the Spirit of God was breathed on anyone or imparted by seeing and hearing. This is why the instructions were left to lead you to Christ and God for this day.

Luke 11
13 how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

John 16
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth

Romans 8
9 Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

John 5
39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me.

Matthew 7
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.

Spirit Covenant

Ya know, I was sitting here wondering to myself...what if the two witnesses aren't two people who have already existed? What if it's just two Joe Schmoes who are all of the sudden hit by God, and taken by the spirit, and walked through life for three and a half years until they die at the hands of satan? I mean, I understand they would need to volunteer, or at least be called and agree, since there is free will, but what if Enoch, Elijah, and Moses are just in heaven because they were special dudes who deserved it? All side stories aside, some of which say that Elijah and Enoch were made the agenls Metatron and Sandlaphon, which is on an entirely mythological level, but I mean, why those guys? Does God say He's going to use them for something further, or are we just assuming that's the case? Excuse my ignorance if the answer is plainly obvious, and if so, what is the scritpure supporting this idea?

Ian

Spirit Covenant,

I looked at some of the elements in your post (sackcloth, bald heads, and rope tied around their waist) and connected that to some things earlier on this thread. A man named Charles Martin, screen name Elijah, posted some things here earlier that are also found in other places on the internet and that he also sent out to many churches. To read it, see the following posts in this thread:

posts 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 54, and 76

The first several of those are the message he wrote explaining the mission of the two witnesses, and the others are related. That's where I got the name "Martin" to add to "Charles"--it just fit with things you mentioned. Once you read those posts, you can see how I might connect it to sackcloth, bald heads, and rope around the waist.



Thank goodness for that--I'd be one lost soul for sure! I barely know enough to keep my little boat afloat on the sea of life! Forgive my question if it was too nosy--I'm just really interested in the two witnesses and their mission.

I think it WILL just be two people who are living now. I think that's the way God works. He uses people who are alive. He might bring angels to help them, or bring back Moses and Elijah to help them, but you don't see a lot of resurrected beings in the Bible doing things instead of regular people. Moses and Elijah didn't have somebody else to be in their place for them, and God gave them the power to do what they needed to do, and He can do it for somebody else in the same way. That's just my thoughts on the subject!

They got the name Martin from page 11 post 54 of this thread. There is also a link to the writers inkhorn on that post.

I believe the Two Witnesses are Enoch and Elijah.

Enoch warned the evil generation prior to the flood and was Raptured.

Enoch is a type/foreshadow of the Church being raptured prior to the Tribulation.

Elijah was also Raptured.

Two old testament Prophets who never died but were Raptured for a last days
ministry.

I just cannot buy into Moses being one of the Two Witnesses. Moses died. I just cannot
imagine God having someone die twice. It makes nor sense.

Stuart

http://www.rapture2005.com/

I'm under the impression that if you believe in pre-trib....you will not see the 2 witnesses. they come aftedr the rapture.

correct?

you can just follow the story in Revelations

oh and Rev:3 "And I will grant my two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

thats kinda saying that God will assign two people to do these things. But it sounds like they never had this power before.
i'm studying more but maybe i'm jumping the gun in my research.

I don't know--I'm not a pre-tribber, so I believe we'll all be here to hear them, but I think it will be at least a couple of years anyway. Don't know why--just my thoughts.

Good point about how God is granting them power--they didn't have it before. Everybody wants it to be Old Testaments prophets who already had that power, but you make a really good point.

it's kinda clear that it's pre-trib. not to debate with you my friend but what makes you think that its not pre-trib. is there a scripture you saw somewhere that makes you think otherwise?
i got scripture that says it'll be pre-trib.

we can go to private messages to not take this thread off topic.

I think Tomcat's about to make the case in another thread--I'll wait and see what he posts and then revisit the subject--not to avoid it, but he shares the same views I do, and I know he's planning to cover it.

no problem. i'll look out for it because i'd like to jump in.

It's in 14 Year End-time Theory.

I Believe the Two Witnesses are the Old and New Testaments made flesh in the lives of YAHWEH'S people on earth. "And the WORD was made flesh and dwelt among us(JN 1:1) .... Who is our example in "ALL things that pertain unto life and godliness"(2Pet. 1:3)...If ye abide in me, and my WORDS abide in you "He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me and I in Him". (JN 6:54)

We become a New Creature when we are born of the Spirit and become partakers of the Divine Nature. Partaking of that nature necessitates we die to self first and then after being raised up in the newness of life eat the bread of life that came down from heaven. That bread is Messiah as shown in type (OT) and as the living Messiah in the (NT). As one eats a piece of literal bread the norishment from the bread is assimilated into the body and we derive physical strength so it is in the spiritual. As the moon rules the night and the sun the day so to with the (OT) and the (NT).

I'm responding to your translation of John 1:1. Go back and read the scriptures talking about 'THE WORD'. In John 1:1 the WORD became flesh....talking about the Messiah Jesus Christ.

Jesus is God in human flesh. He is not half God and half man. He is fully divine and fully man. That is, Jesus has two distinct natures: divine and human. Jesus is the Word who was God and was with God and was made flesh, (John 1:1,14). This means that in the single person of Jesus is both a human and divine nature. The divine nature was not changed. It was not altered. He is not merely a man who "had God within Him" nor is he a man who "manifested the God principle." He is God, second person of the Trinity. "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word," (Heb. 1:3, NIV). Jesus' two natures are not "mixed together," nor are they combined into a new God-man nature. They are separate yet act as a unit in the one person of Jesus. This is called the Hypostatic Union.

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/2natures.htm

Just as Yeshua by becoming partaker of flesh and blood we through the new birth become partakers of the divine nature. Thus we become His children and are still fully human but the Scripture says that we become partakers of the Divine nature having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Yeshua is fully man and fully God.

How does this make us the Old and New Testaments and the two witnesses? And then there's the part about being killed and the bodies lying in the street for 3 1/2 days and then being called up to heaven. How does that fit? Are you looking at a literal time period of 1260 days, or is that symbolic? Sorry for a bunch of questions thrown at you, but I was wondering about the symbolism, since your interpretation has everything symbolic and not two literal people as two literal witnesses.

The "two witnesses" of Rev. 11:3 ="the two olive trees" (vs.4) which ="the two candlesticks" ...Ps. 119:105 says "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path"...Thus the two witnesses refer to something of two (2) concerning Gods' Word. I think of the old and new testament (thats something of Gods' word that is identified with the number two. Another Scripture is Heb.4:12 which says that Gods' word sharper then any two edge sword...another scripture says "...We are unto God, a sweet savour of Christ, 1. in them that are saved, and 2.in them that perish: To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life....(2Cor 2:15,16)...another scripture says "....and ye shall be witnesses unto me" (Acts 1:8) Thus we are Yeshuas' witnesses through obeying --- 1.Old Testament and 2.The New Testament.

If you look in Zechariah 4 you will find that the olive trees are the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel and also the two anointed ones who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth. They are two prophets, not groups of people. It is stated in revelation 11 that the two witnesses are two prophets.

Re 11
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

Zechariah 4
6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the Lord of hosts.
7 'Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "

Zechariah 4
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."


Spirit Covenant

Every testament requires the Death of a Testator .

Since Jesus has died once for the Testament , how can someone else die again ?

Good discussion. I will say again Miki seems to have it correct.

Anyone who states they are one of the witnesses in Revelation disqualifies themselves immediately. Only GOD can state who is a prophet and who is not. He will reveal this information soon.

We are not talking about reincarnation. This is the SPIRIT of Elijah and Enoch that will come to the witnesses. These lessons had to be learned over a lifetime tested through fire and pain in this life. They are here now. Elijah is female, Enoch is male.

Simplebaby stated, "Since Jesus had died once for the Testament, how can someone else die again? Not sure what he means. Not sure where he got the info about, "Every testament requires the Death of a Testator."

As John the Baptist was the forerunner for the first coming of Jesus, Elijah is the forerunner for the second coming of Jesus. Jesus will not die again. HE already did that.

Every Passover the Jewish people set a placesetting and a glass of wine for Elijah and leave the door open. Some think this is just "tradition." Well, it's got merit.

Elijah will first go to the Jewish people and tell them that Jesus is their Messiah and the veil will be lifted from their eyes. Not sure how this is going to happen, just know it will.

Shy1, hannah fievel, shekel, all on the right track.

Blessings

simple baby refers to scirpture at Hebrews 9:15-18.

a covenant is valid over dead victims., and is not in force at any time while the coveanter is living.

therefore. the "two witnesses" must die.

that is when it is finished.

and the heavens will open,
and the ark of the covenant will be seen. (understood).



adam, and eve.


from the beginning, so it shall be in the end.



it is like the greatest "Romeo and Juilet" .....

but, God's beautiful way.

now, this is one endless debate that I would say is all rather moot.

funny were having the same converstion in 'Elijah the prophet."

yes Pamela , its frustrating when the same conversation is running
in two places.

Anyhow , you seem to be on to something, carry on .....

I've been thinking about Godssoldier and wondering how he was doing, so I checked to see when he last posted, and this was it. Last time he was in the forum was March 17. I hope he's ok! Let's not forget to include him in our prayers . . .

HI

Here is who the Two witnesses are.

These are perhaps the most misunderstood prophecy in Rev. I have heard they are Moses Enoch Elijah so forth and so on. Of course not one verse to back any of it.

You must trust the words of God no matter where it takes you away from Traditional Christian Teachings.

Jesus ALONE IS THE ONE WHO REVEALS ………………………..JESUS ALONE HAS THE ANSWERS TO THE SYMBOLS.

We are told they are witnesses………………. We are given Two symbols that tell us who these are.

3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

Ok So what is an Olive Tree in the Bible

Jeremiah 11: 16 The LORD once called you, 'A green olive tree, fair with goodly fruit'; but with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.

And again in

Hosea14: 5 I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall grow like the lily, and lengthen his roots like Lebanon. 6 His branches shall spread; his beauty shall be like an olive tree, and his fragrance like Lebanon.

And Paul calls Israel the Olive Tree in

Romans 11: 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,

Lampstands are the Churches in Revelation 1:

20 As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The Greek word for church here was " the assembly of called out ones" which is what Israel was the called out ones. So a Lampstand means called out ones.

So the Twelve Tribes are the Olive Tree and we are Grafted into the Olive Tree when we are saved.

So TRUE Christianity is the Olive Tree. I can show you verses to prove that many of the Christians of Europe are in fact of the lost tribes of Israel.

Ok so who are Gods Witnesses does Jesus also say the Olive Tree is his Witnesses.

Isaiah 43:
1 But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.......

9 Let all the nations gather together, and let the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to justify them, and let them hear and say, It is true. 10 "You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

47: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48: And ye are witnesses of these things.

Acts:1:8: But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Acts:1:22: Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts:2:32: This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts:3:15: And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; [/color]whereof we are witnesses.[/color]

Acts:5:32: And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Acts:10:39: And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

Acts:14:17: Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.

Acts:22:15: For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.

1Thes:2:10: Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

1Jn:1:2: (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3Jn:1:6: Which have borne witness of thy charity before the church: whom if thou bring forward on their journey after a godly sort, thou shalt do well:

Rv:1:5: And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

WHAT DOES A WITNESS DO. WELL THEY TESTIFY DON'T THEY

Acts:10:42: And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.

Acts:20:24: But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

1Pt:5:12: By Silvanus, a faithful brother unto you, as I suppose, I have written briefly, exhorting, and testifying that this is the true grace of God wherein ye stand.

1Jn:4:14: And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Deut:17 6: At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Duet 19: 15: One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sins: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

Matthew 18: 16 "But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that 'by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

II Corinthians 13: 1 This will be the third time I am coming to you. "By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.

So The House of Israel and the House of Judah are the 12 Tribes and the Two Olive Trees. And Christianity. Now I can show you over 50 verses which show that these 12 Tribes are Christianity. If you like I will post them in another post.

Think of it this way before each major event in history of his plan God has sent prophets.

To Egypt to Edom to Assyria, To Israel first then To Judah to Babylon.

Now…………………To warn of the Great Tribulation……………………. To herald the return of the Lord…………… God sends 144,000 prophets.

So 144,000 that stand against the Anti Christ and declare that there is only one God and the truth of the Prophets for this the AC rises up and kills them. They are the beginning of the end once they are sealed this evil world's fate is sealed.

Is that enough verses to show everyone the truth of this matter

You missed one important scriptue in rev 11:10 where it says these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. Taking all doubt away that they are two indeviduals and not groups. If they were groups of people it would be worded that way and it is not.

Charlie

Hi

No the Two witnesses are the 144,000.

Sent out two by Two. the Two in jerusalem are just representative of the whole mission.

Lk:10:1: After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.

Before the Great tribulation Jesus will send out the sealed 144,000 to every city of the world.

You appear to know that you are correct. I'm sorry but I have read the same verses as you have and did not come up with alot that you posted. I am trying to follow you but I cant see where you come up with what you post. I'm trying to see but just cant.
Kim

Hi Kim


It is very simple

We are given symbols to tell us who these witnesses are.

3: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4: These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

They Are Gods Witnesses they are Olive trees they are Candle Sticks.

The Reason why there is thousands of understandings of prophecy is everyone refuses to trust God. These are God Symbols not mine not yours so all we have to do is see who God Call the candlesticks and olive trees and his Witnesses.

Ok So what is an Olive Tree in the Bible

Jeremiah 11: 16 The LORD once called you, 'A green olive tree, fair with goodly fruit'; but with the roar of a great tempest he will set fire to it, and its branches will be consumed.

And again in

Hosea14: 5 I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall grow like the lily, and lengthen his roots like Lebanon. 6 His branches shall spread; his beauty shall be like an olive tree, and his fragrance like Lebanon.

And Paul calls Israel the Olive Tree in

Romans 11: 17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in their place to share the richness of the olive tree,

Lampstands are the Churches in Revelation 1:

20 As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in my right hand, and the seven golden lampstands, the seven stars are the angels of the seven churches and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

The Greek word for church here was " the assembly of called out ones" which is what Israel was the called out ones. So a Lampstand means called out ones.

So the Twelve Tribes are the Olive Tree and we are Grafted into the Olive Tree when we are saved.

So TRUE Christianity is the Olive Tree. I can show you verses to prove that many of the Christians of Europe are in fact of the lost tribes of Israel.

Ok so who are Gods Witnesses does Jesus also say the Olive Tree is his Witnesses.

Isaiah 43:
1 But now thus says the LORD, he who created you, O Jacob, he who formed you, O Israel: "Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name, you are mine.......

9 Let all the nations gather together, and let the peoples assemble. Who among them can declare this, and show us the former things? Let them bring their witnesses to justify them, and let them hear and say, It is true. 10 "You are my witnesses," says the LORD, "and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am He. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.

There you have it God calls the 12 tribes by these symbols and no one else.

So either you trust God or you ignore his explanation of his symbols and make up your own explanation.

Sorry but I'm just not getting it. See I dont want to ignore God but I'm not sure it is his explanation.

Yes, please explain to me the verses to prove that many of the Christians of Europe are in fact of the lost tribes of Israel.

I do like study about the witnesses. I just dont think we know the they are from Europe.
Kim

This subject began some time ago..I have been reading through every page and
comments and right now I felt lead to bring to the table a thought...what if the
2 witnesses came in love...were utterly rejected and laughed at and scorned for
there message...." Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand, beloved" The established church, pristine, and pure, in her own eyes...cannot accept the simplicity of the message or the deliverers, the messengers...the churches cannot get out of their own light...individuals may realize, but corporation christianity may not. Many will be saved because of the horrific events, but the world will reject...the demonstration of Gods power harvests the last....

What if these 2 are just like two people that are like 2 other people that went before and were full of their own doubts of self and why, if, how, when...where is the other one...when does it start, when do I know, what do I do, O God, please don't let this drag on please God let it be as you have said...how much longer, is this insanity ....? When God's timing and their brokeness for the fulfillment of the calling...bring them together, and the question why? And they have to find that out, and ..... And the calamities in their hands are the promises of God...the prophecies...and they really are just the bearers of the power that is really beyond, accept that Gods hand is so heavily upon them that they understand the weight of the position...and God continues to give them choices that they wear the sack cloth in total grieving for the upheaval in the earth and in total death to themselves...for righteousness...not their own sake, for the sake and word of God. Could they see and know at each step more specifically as the prophecies are being fulfilled, and by grace keep turning to God...as it is God who metes out each judgement at the time the 2 realize and pray it is revealed and carried out...so dependant are they that they have only each other here and God... and for the intercessors and prophets that will be called to intercede for these 2 because they will have to move under the cloud or smoke...and those
others will form a network, such as this ministry, and others by which these 2 will
stay grounded in love...just a thought...my heart just opened up to these...and
what if it is possible that the 2 distinct people representing other people also
represent larger groups...the Jews and the Gentiles who do and will believe...
Israel and Ephraim...? I am not a scholar...I am leading with my heart...and what if at that time that the 2 sticks unite and become a mighty weapon in the hand of the Lord...? thanks for reading me...Signet

They do indeed come in Love. Still they will not be mocked and treated spitefully without consequences because this is the day of intolerance. But they come with a firm message from the Lord and there is no time for them to walk among the people and teach after their ministry gets underway. They are teaching now to those who will listen every where they go. But when their ministry starts they will barely have enough time to cover the whole Globe even by the Power of God before their ministry will end and they will be killed. So you will hear it and believe and follow or you will not.
The two witnesses are two ordinary men who the Lord called. The Spirit of the Lord drew them to search for Him. The Spirit led them to Christ, to repentance and forgiveness, and to thirst for the righteousness of the Lord. The Lord has caused them to understand the Word of the Lord to Zerubbabel.


Zechariah 4
3 Two olive trees are by it, one at the right of the bowl and the other at its left."
4 So I answered and spoke to the angel who talked with me, saying, "What are these, my lord?"
5 Then the angel who talked with me answered and said to me, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."
6 So he answered and said to me: "This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: 'Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the Lord of hosts.
7 'Who are you, O great mountain? Before Zerubbabel you shall become a plain! And he shall bring forth the capstone With shouts of "Grace, grace to it!" ' "

They are the two anointed ones who were born, raised and prepared for this ministry to stand beside the Lord of the whole earth for the end time and to die for their Lord. They understood that they had to walk out from among the world and be separate with no intentions of ever coming back and follow in Christ’s foot steps to obtain the riches from heaven to do His will in their ministry.

Zechariah 4
11 Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"
14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth."




Charlie

HI


Zech 4: is not about the end Times. It is about Joshua the First Priest King of the Second Temple Era.


Once again in Zech 4: the tribes are called Olive Branches.

It was the 12 Tribes Mission to bring the word (golden Oil) of the one true God to the World.

They failed in this mission.



Hi Kim

Well a very good example is that the Church at Corinth was actually made up of people of the Lost Tribes.

1Cor:10:1: Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Above Paul tells the Corinthians that their Fathers were at the Exodus.

Now look at James

1: James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

James wrote this to the Provinces of the Roman Empire. not to Jews in Judea.

Now as we know the lost Tribes were taken out of the Northern Kingdom of Israel and over time lost their identity...................they think they are gentile.

Now look how God says he will save them

Isa:27:6: He shall cause them that come of Jacob to take root: Israel shall blossom and bud, and fill the face of the world with fruit.

Isa:27:9: By this therefore shall the iniquity of Jacob be purged; and this is all the fruit to take away his sin;

So the House of Israel(lost tribes) will take root (Jesus) and fill the world with Fruit . As we all know a good tree produces good fruit.

Now Notice in Romans their is two Olive Trees the Olive Tree that is Judah and the Wild Olive tree that is the Lost Tribes.

When Jesus says

Mt:21:43: Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Who is the Nation he is speaking of ..................He is speaking of the Wild olive Tree.

Why did John and Peter and many others go to Europe and teach in Europe..............well they had a mission given to them by Jesus.

Mt:10:6: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That is not telling them to teach to the House of Judah. but to the Lost house of Israel.

the reality of the Two Houses was a very well known fact to these men. The reality of the Two Houses IS EVERYWHERE in scripture.

the House of Israel was not in the kingdom of Judea in Jesus time

here are the Words of Josephus a Jewish historian and Scholar from that Time.

"So he [Ezra or Esdras] read the epistle at Babylon to the Jews [that is: Hebrews] that were there; but he kept the epistle itself, and sent a copy of it to all those of his own nation that were in Media; and when these Jews [that is: Hebrews] had understood what piety the king [Xerxes, son of Darius] had toward God, and what kindness he had for Esdras, they were all greatly pleased; nay, many of them took their effects with them and came to Babylon, as very desirous of going down to Jerusalem; but then the entire body of the people of Israel remained in that country; wherefore there are but two tribes in Asia and Europe subject to the Romans [Judah and Benjamin], while the ten tribes are beyond Euphrates till now, and are an immense multitude, and not to be estimated by numbers."

Now he was correct that they had not returned after Babylon....................but he was wrong that they were still beyond the Euphrates.

In order to understand where they were you need to do a lot of historical work on the migration of groups and tribes.

the reality is the Lost Tribes had spread out and by the first century were scattered from Russia to England and from Norway and Finland down to Italy and Greece and other parts of Southern Europe.

the Reality is the "Other Nation" is Christianity and it is also the Lost house of Israel.

Do not get me wrong I am not saying ever Christian of Europe is of the Lost Tribes......................but many many many are and I am sure that Every single member of the Lost tribes has heard the Gospel and had the chance to take root down and bare fruit up.

please remember, and consider, what it was that the mother of James and John, (called the Sons of THUNDER) did, when she approached Jesus to make a request in their behalf....
please see Matthew 20 :20-23.

also, please, consider what is written at Mark 10:35-40.


...additional references? Mark 3:17. and also, perhaps, Revelation 10:4.

one final question:
who was invited by Jesu