Rapture!!!
by Grant Jeffrey


Over the last 30 years I have been fascinated with Bible prophecy because it authenticates the Scriptures as God's inspired Word and it points to the imminent return of Jesus Christ to usher in the Messianic kingdom. I am always delighted when God leads me to new information that confirms His Word. In my ongoing research into recent archaeolological discoveries and into writings of Early Church leaders I have made several exciting new discoveries that I want to share with my readers.
In this chapter we will explore a number of interesting discoveries about the following subjects: the finding of a teaching about the pre-Tribulation Rapture from the first centuries of the Early Church; the archaeological discoveries of the tombs of Mary, Martha, and Lazarus that prove the historical accuracy of the Gospels; and the proof that miraculous healings, raising of the dead, and the charismatic gifts were common among believers during the first three centuries following the resurrection of Christ.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture Was Taught by the Early Church

Obviously, the truth about the timing of the Rapture will ultimately be found only in Scripture. The Protestant Reformation was based essentially on this return to the authority of the Bible. The Latin phrase Sola Scriptura, meaning "Scripture Alone," became the rallying cry of the reformers who ignored centuries of tradition and church councils in their insistence that truth could only be discovered in the Word of God. While the ultimate resolution of this discussion must be based on our interpretation of Scripture, it is important to answer the errors of our opponents who disparage "the blessed hope" of the Rapture with misinformation about the modem rediscovery of the truth about the pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Many post-tribulationist writers have attacked the pre-Tribulation Rapture doctrine by claiming that it cannot be true because no Church writer or reformer ever taught this doctrine until approximately 170 years ago. While the real question for sincere students of Scripture must be whether or not the Bible truly teaches this doctrine, the argument that no one ever saw this "truth" throughout the 1,800 years of Church history has been very effective, causing many Christians to abandon their belief in the pre-Tribulation Rapture. The only problem with their argument is that they are totally wrong.

Many contemporary writers claim that the pre-Tribulation Rapture theory first originated around A.D. 1820. They ascribe the theory's initial creation to either Emmanuel Acurnza (Ben Ezra, 1812), Edward Irving (1816), or Margaret Macdonald (1830), and finally to John Darby (1830). For example, Dave MacPherson in The Incredible Cover-Up, written in 1975, stated, "Margaret Macdonald was the first person to teach a coming of Christ that would precede the days of Antichrist."' Before 1830 Christians had always believed in a single future coming, that the catching up of I Thessalonians 4 will take place after the Great Tribulation of Matthew 24 at the glorious coming of the Son of Man when He shall send His angels to gather together all of His elect." Reverend John Bray, in The Origin of the Pre- Tribulation Rapture Teaching (1980), declared, "People who are teaching the pre-Tribulation Rapture today are teaching something that never was taught until 1812.... Not one of those Early Church fathers taught a pre-Tribulation Rapture.... I make the offer of five hundred dollars to anybody who will find a statement, a sermon, article in a commentary, or anything, prior to 1812 that taught a twophase coming of Christ separated by a stated period of time, such as the pre-Tribulation rapturists teach.

Those writers, among others who despise the teaching of the pre-Tribulation Rapture, dogmatically assert that it was taught for the first time in 1830 by John Darby and the Plymouth Brethren or one of the other individuals mentioned above.

A number of these authors will have to drastically revise the next edition of their books based on two remarkable textual discoveries that conclusively prove that a number of Christian teachers, centuries before John Darby rediscovered this biblical teaching, clearly taught that the Rapture would occur before the tribulation period. During the summer of 1994, after more than a decade of searching, I discovered several fascinating manuscripts that contain clear evidence of the teaching of the pre-Tribulation Rapture in the Early Church.

Ephraem's Teaching on the Pre-Tribulation Rapture

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).

The early Christian writer and poet, Ephraem the Syrian (who lived from A.D. 306 to 373), was a major theologian of the early Byzantine Eastern Church. He was born near Nisbis in the Roman province of Syria, near present-day Edessa, Turkey. Ephraem displayed a profound love of the Scriptures in his writings as illustrated by several of his written comments quoted in Works of Nathaniel Lardner (vol. 4, 1788). "1 esteem no man more happy than him who diligently reads the Scriptures delivered to us by the Spirit of God, and thinks how he may order his conversation by the precepts of them." To this day his hymns and homilies are used in the liturgy of the Greek Orthodox and Middle Eastern Nestorian Church. While the 16-volume Post-Nicene Library includes a number of homilies and psalms by Ephraem the Syrian, the editors noted that he also wrote a large number of commentaries that have never been translated into English.

Ephraem's fascinating teaching on the Antichrist has never been published in English until now. This critically important prophecy manuscript from the fourth century of the Church era reveals a literal method of interpretation and a teaching of the pre-millennial return of Christ. More importantly, Ephraem's text revealed a very clear statement about the pre-tribulational return of Christ to take His elect saints home to heaven to escape the coming Tribulation. In addition, Ephraem declares his belief in a personal, Jewish Antichrist, who will rule the Roman Empire during the last days, a rebuilt temple, the two witnesses, and a literal Great Tribulation lasting 1,260 days. It is also fascinating to note that he taught that the war of God and Magog would precede the tribulation period. I discovered another text by Ephraem called The Book of the Cave of Treasure that revealed he taught that Daniel's seventieth week will be fulfilled in the final seven years at the end of this age that will conclude with Christ's return at the Battle of Armageddon to establish His kingdom.

The following section includes key passages from Ephraem's important text, written about A.D. 373, and translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades of Tyndale Theological Seminary at my request.

On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World

1. Most dearly beloved brothers, believe the Holy Spirit who speaks- in us. Now we have spoken before, because the end of the world is very near, and the consummation remains. Has not the first faith withered away in men? ...

2. We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled, and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.... Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins [italics added]. And so, brothers, most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of this world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord....

3. When therefore the end of the world comes, there arise diverse wars, commotions on all sides, horrible earthquakes, perturbations of nations, tempests throughout the lands, plagues, famine, drought throughout the thoroughfares, great danger throughout the sea and dry land, constant persecutions, slaughters and massacres everywhere....

4. When therefore the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one is born from the tribe of Dan. He is conceived from the seed of a man and from a most vile virgin, mixed with an evil or worthless spirit....

5. But when the time of the abomination of his desolation begins to approach, having been made legal, he takes the empire.... Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, he shall sit as God and order that he be adored by all nations ... then all people from everywhere shall flock together to him at the city of Jerusalem, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for forty-two months just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which become three and a half years, 1,260 days.

6. In these three years and a half the heaven shall suspend its dew; because there will be no rain upon the earth ... and there will be a great tribulation, as there has not been, since people began to be upon the earth ... and no one is able to sell or to buy of the grain of the fall harvest, unless he is one who has the serpentine sign on the forehead or the hand....

7. And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know, and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty, with the sign of the word of salvation going before him, and also even with all the powers of the heavens with the whole chorus of the saints .... Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the Spirit of his mouth. And he shall be bound and shall be plunged into the abyss of everlasting fire alive with his father Satan; and all people, who do his wishes, shall perish with him forever; but the righteous ones shall inherit everlasting life with the Lord for ever and ever.

To summarize the key points in Ephraem's text on the last days:

1. Ephraem's manuscript lays out the events of the last days in chronological sequence. Significantly, he began with the Rapture, using the word "imminent," then he described the Great Tribulation of three and a half years duration under the Antichrist's tyranny, followed by the second coming of Christ to earth with His saints to defeat the Antichrist.

2. Significantly, at the beginning of his treatise in section 2, Ephraem used the word "imminent" to describe the Rapture occurring before the Tribulation and the coming of the Antichrist. "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers which is imminent or overhanging."

3. He clearly described the pre-Tribulation Rapture: "Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

4. He then gives the purpose of God rapturing the Church "before the tribulation" so that "they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins." Ephraem used the word "confusion" as a synonym for the tribulation period.

5. Ephraem described the duration of the "great tribulation" (the last half of the seven-year tribulation period) in sections 7, 8, and 10, as follows: "forty- two months" and "three and a half years," and "1,260 days."

6. He summarized: "There will be a great tribulation, as there has no been since people began to be upon the earth," and described the Mark of the Beast system.

7. He declared that Christ will come to the earth after the "three and a half years" tribulation period in section 10: "And when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of the Antichrist, through which he will have seduced the world, after the resurrection of the two prophets ... will come the sign of the Son of Man, and coming forward the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty."

Dr. Paul Alexander, perhaps the most authoritative scholar on the writings of the early Byzantine Church, concluded that Ephraem's text on the Antichrist taught that the Lord would supernaturally remove the saints of the Church from the earth "prior to the tribulation that is to come." Ephraem wrote that the saints will be "taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins." Dr. Alexander believed this text was written by some unknown writer in the sixth century, but he concluded that it was derived from an original Ephraem manuscript (A.D. 373). Other scholars, including the German editor Professor Caspari, who wrote a German commentary on this Latin manuscript in 1890, believed that Ephraem's manuscript was written by the genuine Ephraem in A.D. 373. Professor Cameron Rhoades translated Ephraem's Latin text into English at the request of my friend Dr. Tommy Ice and myself.

Ephraem and Daniel's Seventieth Week - the Tribulation Period

A question naturally arises in the mind of Bible students about how long Ephraem believed the Tribulation would last. While Ephraem correctly describes the "great tribulation" as three and a half years, his other writings revealed that he believed the whole tribulation period, "that sore affliction," would last "one week" of seven years. Ephraem's book, The Book of the Cave of Treasures, taught about the genealogy of Christ. He wrote that the sixty-ninth week of Daniel 9:24-27 ended with the rejection and crucifixion of Jesus the Messiah. He stated, "The Jews have no longer among them a king, or a priest, or a prophet, or a Passover, even as Daniel prophesied concerning them, saying, 'After two and sixty weeks Christ shall be slain, and the city of holiness shall be laid waste until the completion of things decreed' (Dan. 9:26). That is to say, for ever and ever" (italics added, The Cave of Treasures, page 235). In Daniel's prophecy he foretold that Jerusalem would be rebuilt "even in troublesome times" during the initial period of "seven weeks" of years (49 years). Daniel's prophecy declared that this initial period of seven "weeks" of years would be immediately followed by a further period of 62 "weeks" of years ending with the cutting off of the Messiah (483 years). The combined total of 69 weeks of years (7 weeks plus 62 weeks) was to conclude with the rejection of Christ. As quoted above, Ephraem taught that Jesus Christ was slain at the end of the combined 69 weeks of years.

However, in the section of his book dealing with the future war of God and Magog, Ephraem wrote about the final (seventieth) week of Daniel as follows: "At the end of the world and at the final consummation ... suddenly the gates of the north shall be opened. ... They will destroy the earth, and there will be none able to stand before them. After one week of that sore affliction [Tribulation], they will all be destroyed in the plain of Joppa. . . .

Then will the son of perdition appear, of the seed and of the tribe of Dan.... He will go into Jerusalem and will sit upon a throne in the Temple saying, 'I am the Christ,' and he will be borne aloft by legions of devils like a king and a lawgiver, naming himself God.... The time of the error of the Antichrist will last two years and a half, but others say three years and six months" (italics added). Although there are some curious elements in his description of prophetic events, it is clear that Ephraem believed that the seventieth final week of Daniel's prophecy of the 70 weeks will finally be fulfilled during the final seven years of this age when the Antichrist will appear. This evidence of a belief in a "gap" or "parenthesis" between the sixty-ninth and seventieth week of Daniel 9:24-27 from the fourth century of the Christian era is significant. It is worthwhile to note that the teaching that there would be a "gap" or parenthesis between Daniel's sixty-ninth week and the seventieth week of years was also taught by others in the Early Church, including the epistle of Barnabas (A.D. 110) and the writings of Hippolytus (A.D. 220).

Dr. John Gill Taught the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in 1748

Dr. John Gill, a famous eighteenth-century Baptist theologian, published his commentary on the New Testament in 1748. He is considered a serious Calvinist scholar who wrote many volumes on theology. In his commentary on I Thessalonians 4:15-17, Dr. Gill points out that Paul is teaching a doctrine that is "something new and extraordinary." Gill calls the imminent translation of the saints "the rapture" and calls for watchfulness because "it will be sudden, and unknown before-hand, and when least thought of and expected." This is a clear, detailed 1748 teaching on the imminent pre- Tribulation Rapture (80 years prior to John Darby in 1830).

"For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (I Thess. 4:15). Gill's commentary on this passage is: "The Apostle, having something new and extraordinary to deliver concerning the coming of Christ, the first resurrection, or the resurrection of the saints, the change of the living saints and the Rapture both of the raised, and living in the clouds to meet Christ in the air expresses itself in this manner" (italics added).

"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (I Thess. 4:17). In commenting on this verse Gill revealed that he understood there would be an interval of time between the Rapture and the return of saints with Christ at Armageddon.

Suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute the agility, which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have; and this rapture of the living saints will be together with them; with the dead in Christ, that will then be raised; so that the one will not prevent the other, or the one be sooner with Christ than the other; but one being raised and the other changed, they'll be joined in one company and general assembly, and be rapt up together: in the clouds; the same clouds perhaps in which Christ will come will be let down to take them up; these will be the chariots, in which they'll be carried up to Him; and thus, as at our Lord's ascension a cloud received Him, and in it He was carried up out of the sight of men, so at this time will all the saints ride up in the clouds of Heaven: to meet the Lord in the air; whither He'll descend... here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noonday; as yet He will not descend on earth, because not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He'll descend upon it, and dwell with His saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He'll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He'll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it: and then shall all the elect of God descend from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband, and He with them ... then they shall be with Him, wherever He is; fist in the air, where they shall meet Him; them in the third heaven, where they shall go up with Him; then on earth, where they shall descend and reign with Him a thousand years; and then in the ultimate glory to all eternity.

To summarize Dr. Gill's 1748 pre-Tribulation Rapture teaching about the sequence of prophetic events it is vital to note that he declared: to all.

1. The Lord will descend in the air.
2. The saints will be raptured in the air to meet Him.
3. Here Christ will stop in the air and will be visible.
4. As yet, He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him.
5. He'll take up the saints with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over.
6. He will preserve them from it.
7. And then shall all the elect of God descend from heaven to earth with Christ.

Gill then summarizes the sequence:

1) They shall be with Him, wherever He is; first in the air, where they shall meet Him, then Him; then
2) In the third heaven, where they shall go up with
3) On earth, where they shall descend and reign with Him a thousand years.

Therefore, in addition to Ephraem's pre-Tribulation teaching from the fourth century, we have another clear statement of this doctrine from Dr. John Gill, more than 80 years before John Darby in 1830. Those who have stated that the pre-Tribulation Rapture was never taught throughout the entire history of the Church until 1820 are simply ignorant of these important Christian texts. The French writer Joubert once wrote, "Nothing makes men so imprudent and conceited as ignorance of the past and a scorn for old books."

Why is it important to teach the doctrine of the pre-Tribulation Rapture? The apostle Peter warned that many people would challenge our Lord's promise of His second coming in the last days. "Knowing this first; that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, and saying, 'Where is the promise of His coming?' (2 Pet. 3:3-4).

What does the Bible teach us about the proper attitude of a Christian on the subject of Christ's return? Paul tells us, "So that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 1:7).

One of the distinguishing characteristics of a true follower of Jesus is that of a faithful, waiting, and watching servant. Dr. Klink, one of the great students of the faith of the Early Church, wrote, "This constant expectation of our Lord's second coming is one of the characteristic features of primitive Christianity." Paul also commends a constant expectation of the Rapture in Philippians 3:20 where he said, "For our citizenship is in heaven; from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ."

The great reformer John Calvin wrote of the vital importance of the hope of the Second Coming: "It ought to be the chief concern of believers to fix their minds fully on His Second Advent." Martin Luther, in his Sermon of Consolation, declared that the hope of Christ's return is an absolute necessity for a Christian: "If thou be not

filled with a desire after the Coming of this day, thou canst never pray the Lord's prayer, nor canst thou repeat from thy heart the creed of faith. For with what conscience canst thou say, 'I believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting,' if thou dost not in my heart desire the same? If thou didst believe it, thou must, of necessity, desire it from thy heart, and long for that day to come; which, if thou doest not desire, thou art not yet a Christian, nor canst thou boast of thy faith."

Throughout the New Testament we read continual exhortations to hold the hope of our Lord's soon return as the focus of our spiritual

life. Far from being an unimportant issue, interesting only to students of prophecy, the "blessed hope" of the Rapture should be a cornerstone of every Christian's spiritual life.

The message and hope of the imminent second coming of Christ to rapture the saints has the following purposes:

1. - It calls us to constant watchfulness for His return (I Thess. 5:4-6).
2. It motivates Christians to witness to unbelievers in light of His imminent coming (John 9:4).
3. It reminds us to walk in holiness in an immoral world while we await His return (I John 3:3).
4. It comforts the saints by reminding them of their eternal destiny with Christ (John 14:1-3).
5. It warns of the coming judgment on those who reject His salvation (2 Thess. 1:8-9)
6. It inspires us to persevere against opposition in light of His reward (2 Tim. 4:1-8).
7. It encourages sinners to repent and accept the Lord while there is still time (Acts 3:19-21).

The promise in the Scriptures of the imminent second coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, is the last best hope of mankind. It is the promise of the ultimate vindication of God's plan to redeem mankind and the earth from the curse of sin and death. The final realization of Jesus Christ's claim that He is the promised Messiah, and the fulfillment of prophecies about the coming kingdom of God will culminate when the heavens open to reveal Christ coming in all His glory at the Battle of Armageddon. However, the Scriptures teach that another event will occur before Christ comes to defeat the Antichrist and the armies of the world at Armageddon at the end of the sevenyear tribulation period. This separate and earlier event is often called the Rapture. Throughout the Bible the passages that detail the revelation of Christ at the end of the tribulation period describe a totally different event than those passages describing the coming of Christ in the air to take the saints home to heaven.

The longing for the Rapture and the return of Christ has motivated generations of Bible students to examine the Scriptures in a search for clues as to the exact timing of His glorious appearing. Unfortunately, despite clear scriptural warnings against date-setting regarding the time of His return, many have indulged in unhelpful speculation about the time of the Rapture. Harold Camping's book 1994, for example, claimed that Christ would return on September 17, 1994. Millions of followers of these writings have been deeply disappointed when their foolish predictions proved false. However, despite these disappointments, we must not abandon our hope for an imminent Rapture. We must simply be obedient to Christ's command that "Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near" (Luke 21:28).

John Wesley de Fletcher wrote a fascinating letter to Charles Wesley in 1755 that expressed the proper attitude we should have toward the return of Christ. "I know that many have been grossly mistaken as to the year of His return, but, because they were rash, shall we be stupid? Because they say 'Today!' shall we say, 'Never!' and cry 'Peace, peace,' when we should look about us with eyes full of expectation?"

The Bible warns us to live in holiness because Christ could return at any moment, without warning. Jesus, in Luke 12:37 and 40, admonished, "Blessed are those servants, whom the master, when he comes, will find watching .... Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." Peter, in his second epistle, said, "You therefore, beloved, since you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked" (2 Pet. 3:17). We must live in a dynamic spiritual balance. While we are commanded to live in holiness and urgently 'witness as though He will return before the dawn, we are called to plan and work to fulfill the Great Commission as if He will tarry for another hundred years. We are to "do business ['occupy' in the Authorized Version] till I come" (Luke 19:13), fulfilling Christ's Great Commission to "go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you" (Matt. 28:19-20).

This discovery of texts written before 1820 brings us to the conclusion that a remnant of the faithful, from the beginning of the Early Church until today, have upheld the great precious biblical truth of pre-Tribulation Rapture. Ephraem the Syrian's A.D. 373 manuscript On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, along with Dr. John Gill's 1748 Commentary on the New Testament refute the dogmatic declarations of a post-Tribulation Rapture. In my earlier book, Apocalypse, I quoted from the early Christian writing called Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 110), proving it taught the preTribulation Rapture as the hope of the Church.
...........................................................benny

Friends,

Beware the device used by this author which benny has cut and paste into his post.
The author seeks to convince us that the pretrib rapture theory existed before 1820. In convincing you of this he anticipates that you will then believe that the pre-trib view is true.

So what if the pretrib rapture was taught prior to 1820. All manner of false doctrine has been taught from the days of the early church as was warned by Peter.
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; [1] by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
Jeffries is double tongued. He starts off by lauding Sola Scripture and then goes ahead and to appeal to the traditions of what Jeffries calls the "remnants of the faithful".

If his pre-trib view is correct then he should be content with Sola Scripture and not feel that he needs to legitimise his belief with quotations from unknown men from long ago.

They do not need you to have false doctrines revealed ....We have the Holy spirit and the gift of discernment which is God given.......You can save nobody ...Only the Lord can save.......You quote a lot of scripture,Even satan can do this very thing..........Your teach in error....and yet you are one who thinks that you have all the answers....I know of your kind.....and you stink of pride......There are many here that can see right through you.....through the eyes of the Lord......There are people here that seek wisdom, discernment, and guidance from the Lord,...Deep down within, they already know the truth......His name is JESUS! And without Him,..You can do nothing on your own. The people on this forum can decide on thier own,...they do not need you to decide for them......The Holy Spirit will reveal the "TRUTH" to them. Do you catch my drift? I have posted many topics on this forum, that reveal the evidence of what I speak of. Blessed are those who love the coming of the Lord. Even though that the Lord comes as a thief in the night to the unsuspecting world,.."WE" shall know the general time era,...That day shall not catch us by surprise....and that time era is Now!..."WE" will be kept from the wrath to come and the hour of temptation that shall come upon the world......"WE" have the Great Blessed Hope! Soon,....Very soon,....He will call us home......Soon,...very soon!!!...............................benny

Yes I quote a lot of scripture. Thankyou for pointing that out. Every statement I make is backed up with scripture. Many of these scriptures you have no response for. You simply cut and paste words from other authors. Then when you do have something of your own to say this is what you come up with.

Castigating me for using scripture??!!! I have answered every question you have asked from the scriptures and for this you accuse me of pride. My truth does not come from "deep down within" That is where deception lurks. "Deciding on our own" is also not the right answer because as the scripture teaches "every man is right in his own eyes". The path to truth is through study of the scripture as did the Bereans who searched the scriptures to verify what Paul said. To some the Holy Spirit enlightens their minds of the truth. But for the others who will not let go of falsehood he leaves in darkness.

I have done no differently than the Bereans. I searched out your authors words and found them to be false and deficient. I spent countless hours presenting and explaining the scriptures and what have you learned from them?
Nothing. And yet you accuse me of pride.

My words are for those who read your posts. I hope to prompt them to search the scriptures as did the Bereans to verify for themselves whether or not what your posts say are correct. Surely you do not object to that.

.........what is in my heart right now is this scripture:Luke 22:8-12

"And He sent Peter and John, saying, 'Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat."

"And they said unto him, 'Where wilt thou that we prepare?"

"And He said unto them, 'Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in."

"And ye shall say unto the goodman of the house. The Master saith unto thee, 'Where is the guestchamber, where I shall eat the passover with my disciples?"

"And he shall shew you a large, upper room furnished: there make ready".



May we see the man with the pitcher of water and follow him to
the upper room for the passover.

Do you have the Holy Spirit or the Spirit of man pretending? If you had the Holy Spirit wouldn't you know that this is false doctrine?

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


1Cr 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.


1Cr 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.


1Cr 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.


1Cr 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


1Cr 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;


1Cr 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;


1Cr 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:


1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
...........................................benny

John 16
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.

John 14
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

Praise Jesus! ...................................benny

There are always naysayers. They sow doubt and tell us what rotten people we are...Like the blood of Christ means nothing and we will have to be whipped and purged through the tribulation to be ready for Christ. But l was ready when l said yes and turned my life around to follow him. My imperfections are covered by the blood he shed on the cross. When he comes to receive me unto himself he will find me looking up and waiting..Then in a moment and in the twinkling of an eye l will be changed...caught up to meet him in the clouds...so shall l ever be with him.

There are always naysayers. They sow doubt and tell us what a rotten nation we have..Like the blood of the martyrs means they must have needed a good solid purging to be worthy of Christ.. The Christians of this nation and and others scattered through out the world along with certain Jacobs are being used by God to hold back the tide of evil in these last days so the Word of Salvation (not works) can preached through out the whole world for a witness and then the end will come.

All the conspiracy theorists do is sow doubt and discouragement. They want to make you hang your head in shame like some how you aren't worthy enough by the blood of Jesus and that you are a fanatical fantasizer who sits around eating chips while peeking at the sky during the commercials with TV clicker in hand.

No matter what you tell them or how you try to defend yourself they will tell you it's not enough. "Where are the miracles if you truly are the Sons of God?" they ask... "We're getting ready by developing the gifts in us to prove to the world we are the true Sons of God. We will be like the most high God and these gifts we've developed will propel us through the tribulation unscathed. This will be our unveiling!"

I'm sorry...but that makes me depressed. Jesus protects for and with salvation by his blood alone and not the gifts we've honed like some sorcerer. Maybe l seem harsh this morning but sometimes l feel harsh when defending the faith.. so I'll sing instead...And if you want to sing along go here. It'll perk you up!
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/r/aruwashd.htm

Words & Mu­sic: Eli­sha A. Hoff­man, Spir­it­u­al Songs for Gos­pel Meet­ings and the Sun­day School (Cleve­land, Ohio: Bark­er & Smell­ie, 1878)



"Are You Washed In The Blood?"

Have you been to Jesus for the cleansing power?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?
Are you fully trusting in His grace this hour?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Are you washed in the blood,
In the soul-cleansing blood of the Lamb?
Are your garments spotless are they white as snow?
Are you washed in the blood of the Lamb?

Lay aside your garments that are stained with sin
And be washed in the blood of the Lamb.
There's a fountain flowing for the soul unclean.
O, be washed in the blood of the Lamb!
Rev. 7:14

The treacherous dealers have dealt treacherously with you. Indeed the treacherous dealers have dealt very treacherously with you. They have sold you a gospel of wormwood. They have sold you into the hands of the enemy.

Matthew 10
37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;
38 and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

John 14
21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22 Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

Romans 8
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Cut off your hair and cast it away, and take up a lamentation on the desolate heights; for the Lord has rejected and forsaken the generation of His wrath.
'O daughter of my people, Dress in sackcloth And roll about in ashes!
Make mourning as for an only son, most bitter lamentation; For the plunderer will suddenly come upon you.
In that day the Lord God of hosts Called for weeping and for mourning, For baldness and for girding with sackcloth.
But instead, joy and gladness, Slaying oxen and killing sheep, Eating meat and drinking wine: "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die!" Then it was revealed in my hearing by the Lord of hosts, "Surely for this iniquity there will be no atonement for you, Even to your death," says the Lord God of hosts.

It's true...people who aren't covered with the blood will fit under the scriptures you've posted.

Thank God l'm covered! Thank God l believe!

1Pe 4:10 As every man hath received the gift, [even so] minister the same one to another, as good stewards of the manifold grace of God.


1Pe 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.


1Pe 4:12 ¶ Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:


1Pe 4:13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. [/u]

1Pe 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or [as] a thief, or [as] an evildoer, or as a busybowhen his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


1Pe 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy [are ye]; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

1Pe 4:16 Yet if [any man suffer] as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

1Pe 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?


1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?


1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Thats right Love the Lord enough to not fight against the peaceful habitations that you have known being torn down. Because we are here to level it by Faith and bring in the Kingdom created without human hands.

[quote name='Miki' date='Apr 15 2007, 02:08 PM' post='109450']

No matter what you tell them or how you try to defend yourself they will tell you it's not enough. "Where are the miracles if you truly are the Sons of God?" they ask... "We're getting ready by developing the gifts in us to prove to the world we are the true Sons of God. We will be like the most high God and these gifts we've developed will propel us through the tribulation unscathed. This will be our unveiling!"

I'm sorry...but that makes me depressed. Jesus protects for and with salvation by his blood alone and not the gifts we've honed like some sorcerer. Maybe l seem harsh this morning but sometimes l feel harsh when defending the faith.. [/quote]

.........................................................................................................................................................

This is a very sad understanding (misunderstanding) of what the Bible teaches about the sons of God .
This is the scripture that Miki has difficulty with:
[quote]
Rom 8:18 ¶ For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. [/quote]

First the Bible tells us: "shall be revealed" because it has not happened yet

Then the Bible tells us where this will happen: "IN us"

The previous verse talks about sufferings and that can be understood if we read in :

[quote]1Pe 4:1 ¶ Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. [/quote]

Now we can see from this scripture that it is possible to stop sinning , and although our sins was covered by the blood of Jesus, and we were washed from all sin......we are now also suppose to STOP sinning as well.
So the "suffering" talked about here, is the way that Jesus suffered: He resisted the flesh.

It is painful when we resist the flesh. It wants to do its own thing. It wants to eat what it wants to eat, drink what it wants to drink. Fulfil sexual needs when it wants to...etc. So when we say: NO ! It Hurts.
That is sharing the sufferings of Christ. That is what He did....He said NO to the flesh and OVERCAME IT....by the Word.

He quoted the Word to the devil and overcame. He did not sin.

In Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

So to those who do not overcome sin: You will NOT sit in my throne.

Also:[quote]Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. [/quote]

As you can see, this is difficult to understand to those who believe the Rapture-Now theology, because according to the Bible, the overcomers will rule with a rod of iron. Here on earth.

[quote]Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne. [/quote]

Here it is again: The rod of iron. As we saw in the previous verse: It is NOT talking about anybody else but the overcomers. (The Bride) Nobody else gets to rule, except the bride. Not everybody is the bride....only the overcomers are part of the bride.
[quote]Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. [/quote]

Yes, there it is again: The man child of Rev 12, with the rod of iron.= the overcomers of Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. [/quote]

Clearly Jesus is not talking of Himself here, nor is it Him in the other scriptures. Its Him...IN His body of believers.


I am going to shorten this: Although our sins are forgiven, and we are washed and the blood is covering that which we have done: We still are NOT allowed to carry on in sin and claim the blood for our WILLING disobedience.

We have to overcome by the blood and the word of our testimony (the Bible..the Word of God) in the same way that Jesus did....Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh ............, even as I also overcame,

So it is not like Miki's understanding: Its NOT the honing of gifts like a sorcerer, but it is the death to self. If you have suffered in the flesh...........you will sin no more.

[quote]1Pe 4:1 ¶ Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;


1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. [/quote]

So do not fall for the false doctrine that tells you that you are "just a sinner saved by grace and that all you sins are covered by the blood"....they are not ALL covered by the blood.


As they are so eager to quote: The blood is strong enough...............yes it is...but not for the willful sin that we do not want to stop doing.

[quote]
Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, [/quote]

God judges us for these sins. We get sick, some die.
Ex: Jesus told us if we do not forgive then we get given over to the tormentors........until you forgive.

So get out of false teaching. Let us wake up from our sleep and run this race.

The sons of God is a Biblical teaching, so is the man child (Rev 12) and so is overcoming ...death to self...Christ IN us........
Jesus is coming for His bride and she must be pure...she overcame by using the Word.

The devil has been feeding us junk food and we bought the lie.
C

You just had to try to stir me up didn't you C! It worked.

Why is it so hard for you to see C.

There are 2 groups of people here. Two sons of God waiting to be revealed...No dah. After all the talk on the forum these last years and you're still trying to gloss that fact over. I don't get you C. Why is it so hard to accept that the second group might be in the church as well...waving their magic wand.

People get so focused on the gifts. Healing for instance...Nobody wants to be sick and suffer and all that sickness entails but millions and millions of people are in fact sick and they die. Many think that if they can just develop their faith to a certain point they won't be sick. I gave it up. It's not up to me. I have no doubt..No doubt what so ever that the Lord can heal me. Will he? I don't know. What is his purpose? I don't know....That is my interest far above the healing. He may choose to reveal it just because l ask or he may take me through the valley of the shadow of death...but l will fear no evil.

C.... God healed me once. He touched my hand and l felt healing go into my body. I was crying because l was so sick. Asking God to help me get through. I never thought he wanted to heal me because l didn't think l deserved it. Yes...at that time in my life it was sad but true. He just did it. He knew l couldn't go to the Dr. and my work wasn't done...The enemy was trying to take me out and my lack of knowledge was helping him. The Lord choose to heal me. All of this understanding didn't come until years later. But l can still feel the touch on my hand today.

When people use the gifts as a plumb line as to who they are l've got issue. Hear first and then teach. Just maybe you will have the opportunity to use the gift God has given you and not look like a fool before men and God for stepping out of his timing.

And C... As the Lord has so graciously shown me this Easter season...

Men made a half hearted attempt to keep the covenant ... Like unturned cakes..It was a tiebreaker. The tie that binds that is...

Perhaps thinking they were (are) somehow special in Gods eye (ie. sons of God)

was (is) a fail safe. The only fail safe is our weakness nailed to the cross and his blood dripped down covering them.

Nothing! Absolutely nothing but the blood of Jesus will set you free...for he is the way the truth and the life. Does that mean l can go on sinning? Of course not. I keep my mind and heart set on him and he leads me in the path of righteousness for his names sake. Not for salvation's sake.

C...sin was overcome on the cross. I can't overcome it again with my works. I can serve him to the best of my ability but my best will never be enough. Thank God for the blood. Get off the path of works and onto the road of understanding grace.

I really think you do get it C. but you are so heavily weighted to the side of thinking that people who say they are saved but do nothing are main stream Christianity...

and you've some how found a cure for that in works. Only the blood.

See C.. people like that aren't really saved. When you're really saved you know it. Works flow out of you like water on a thirsty land. No one has to goad you to these works. Only to salvation...the the rest will follow. Got it? God will shake those awake that belong to him to everlasting life...don't worry.

Miki, I am not worried, but I , like you, say what I believe.\
I think its the medium of the forum that is somehow limiting, because when I speak one on one, people get it.

Sons of God....we are all suppose to be sons of God. The only thing keeping us away: is the lack of faith in what Jesus actually did.
When does a lack of faith show? It shows in our fruit.

What actually gets me, is when people glance over scriptures like Rev 12 and Romans 8 . They " " the words sons of God, like its something that is made up, when it actually teaches us about it in those exact words" sons of God...not children of God...but sons. The fully grown version. Plus the Bible teaches us that they will be unrevealed , for lack of a better word, until a certain time.Then God will reveal them. How? By bringing Christ in us to maturity. Its really in there you know! Christ in us the hope of glory.For a purpose, not just a nice sounding scripture.Plus the Bible actually teaches us about the man child, in so many words. Its not even a made up set of words....its really there, just like that: man child. Not male child.
Plus this MAN (body of Christ that is mature) will be caught up to the throne (like I said: overcomers (Rev 2) gets the throne authority. This is not a man made doctrine. Its in the Bible. Its something I read and understand, because I see it in Scripture. It is what I believe the gospel is all about.Like my thread "What is your purpose?" I only and ever use Scripture to explain what I say. If I use it incorrectly, I have asked many times to be corrected, but up to now, nobody has ever come with a Biblical correction......only saying things like: well we do not agree, or I believe something else.(but never bringing Scripture)



Its not about works, its about faith.NEVER about works, or honing gifts. Never is a gift mentioned as a plumb line...never. In fact, just the opposite: God we did many miracles in Your name:...depart . I never knew you...

You see Miki, I want people not to just run a little and rest . I, like Paul, want us all to move unto maturity.Until Christ is fully formed in us.

I am only quoting the Bible, when I speak of overcoming. Overcoming (as I have said MANY times on this forum) is done through FAITH and not by works. I cannot overcome by works, but I must overcome.
I do that, like everybody else: I apply faith. I walk into my victory, by believing that Jesus has already set me free, made me sin free, and overcame on my behalf.

The doctrine that is directly opposing this is the following: We are just forgiven sinners, covered by the blood. (That would be the Old Covenant)
That is not in the Bible. If you believe that , you have to throw out John the baptist: Behold the Lamb of God who TAKETH AWAY THE SIN of the world/ .....not just cover it...but taketh away.

People who say: But I will always be a sinner, is doing what you are saying we should not do: they trust their works and they do not believe that God has the power through Jesus Christ, to REMOVE sin from them.
How does He do it: By Crucifixion. Your old man is put to death and so cannot sin. If you believe that, ONLY THEN, so you enter into this truth and the Holy Spirit can start to bring it into reality.
If you try yourself....like Peter, you will fail. God HAS to put the root problem to death: our flesh.And so He did that ...Praise God.

So, sons of God, the Bride, the man child, are those who see that it is by faith alone and not by works. They actually have the fruit of faith: Christ. He is the overcomer, the man child in us...Christ in us the hope of glory. A glorious New Covenant that replaced the Old. The Old could only COVER sin...the New can take sin away.

I sometimes get the idea that you think that I judge you as not "there" I cannot do that, for who but a man knows the heart of that man (except God) I only speak about these things, because you sometimes create the perfect opportunity to do so
plus.that is what I do . That is what I do in real life in the body..I teach, I encourage. I want to hold the hand of those who are falling behind, I help. If I understand something, I try and relate it. Obviously not too well, here on the forum. but I am doing better in real life, by the grace of God, and not my own intellect.

C

But it isn't a magic formula...We're growing daily and if l die tomorrow and Christ isn't fully formed in me it's OK...He's got me covered. You want it to seem like we aren't saved if Christ isn't fully formed in us and we are. From the moment we believed, death lost it's sting. I believed. That's how l was saved. I believed...Signs and wonders followed. I didn't have to follow after signs and wonders in order to believe.

See you think we aren't save until Christ is fully formed in us and l disagree. We are saved and then Christ is formed in us...He who's begun a good work in me is faithful to complete it. He's faithful l'm not.

I have NEVER said that, because that would be unscriptural to say that. Of course we are saved and THEN Christ is formed in us. But there is one point that Christians miss: All the promises are in past tense.

So I think it is here that we might differ: I believe that we must call things as if they were (That is what God does) So its Biblical to say: By His stripes we were healed (were...it actually says "were" in the Bible)
Also , Jesus said "It is finished" so He did what He came to do. Right?

So, when I say that we have been perfected..I speak by FAITH, not manifestation
When I say: I have been healed...again by faith.....not manifestation. God brings the manifestation after faith ( but I also do not limit God by creating this as the ONLY way...He is sovereign and can heal you by "touching your hand" whenever He so chooses) I am saying that God has done much more than we give Him credit for.

A prayer like: Please God heal me... Is actually against "by His stripes you were healed" but a prayer like : God I thank you for the stripes of Jesus, by which we WERE healed. I pray that you bring that into manifestation in my life" is more correct according to Biblical truth.

Same with overcoming: I say: Thank you Jesus that YOU overcame for me and thank you that I am dead and You live in me. Thank you that YOU are perfect and that I have been perfected IN YOU.

So I am again found IN FAITH and not works.If you die in faith...God looks at you as perfect., sinless and free....because you believe what Jesus has done for you.

When you say" I believe He who started a good work will finish it" you are IN FAITH and that is exactly what He will do for you. Most people believe that God only has the ability to finish that in heaven though ,and does not believe that He can perform this here on earth. I do not know why they believe that, because it is not in the Bible. Many, many scriptures tell us to be perfect, not to sin etc. But a lack of true knowledge has robbed the Christian of victory: They are always pushing it back to heaven. That I do disagree with..victory is for NOW. I do not need it in heaven.

I do not have time now (I must go into town) but this all relates to the Bride/virgins/friend of the Groom.
God shows us in scripture that we can bear fruit:30 60 or 100% God divides believers into groups.
Most believe that all will be the same, and that is simply not true.

if you want to talk about it (in Scripture) we can do so
love C

I don't think focusing on the wording of a thing is of great import. (ie "were healed") It's a technicality.. It's not pivotal to use those words or not.... because God looks on the heart of each man. Sometimes people don't say anything at all and are healed. Sometimes they aren't even seeking and they find. Sometimes people get a word from the Lord and they don't even know him and are living the life style from hell...go figure...

However...

You are still trying to conjure up your faith by technique...Your trying to make yourself a Son of God by seeing the perfected self before it happens...there by causing it to happen! Hog wash...C. That's a new age technique called visualization...


Accept the saving grace of God just like you are. You can't see the end product yet but it's no never mind. Christ accepts you just like you are. He saved you in that condition. You don't have to "become" to be more saved!!! Your saved right now by faith.





Don't be to sure. Pastors flatter themselves all the time because people are afraid to say they don't understand or even actually confront the Pastor. No offense but l see it all the time. I think there should always be fear, humility and respect when approaching a Pastor or teacher as God is watching your mouth. Some are more bold then others and confident enough in what they know and believe and can go boldly before their teacher or Pastor with issues. Head in the sand with embarrassment if you're wrong though. But sometimes we are wrong and don't know it. That is why it's good to approach those teaching with fear of God..humility and respect...in order to be corrected.

What the problem is here is that age old vanity of man syndrome. You have bought into a false gospel to the point where you can't and won't look at the true Gospel of Christ. A few scriptures that have been transformed into a false god made in the image of corruptible man has got you mesmerized to where you can't see straight to save yourselves. You say you love the Lord but you won't do what He said.
How many who were diagnosed with cancer have gone out to die crying and wailing to the God of heaven for mercy? Instead they just go ahead and let the beast kill them with the works of their hands. The beast doesn't need God they have all that they need. They have manufactured it all by worshiping the works of their hands. Let's see how well they fair without the precious daily gift's from heaven, the rain, the dew and the waters.

Actually the very words of the Bible is totally correct in there use. God wrote it and therefor its absolutely perfect in its tenses. He meant "were" and He does not need an education in the use of English Also because he knows everything, knew about this very conversation before it happened, and still He went ahead and used "were" because it is correct. Its what He meant.

I cannot conjure up faith , because the Bible teaches its a gift. What I do know , is that we have to use our faith and that it can grow as well. That only happens when we use it. We have to have the Biblical "technique" otherwise it does not work. God Himself teaches us about it: He calls things which are not as if they were. (that New Age technique you talk about,,,,,,they stole it from Christianity)



So , Miki, if I do what God does Himself, am I New Age? The next New Age teaching He uses is to tell us to cast down evil imagination (visualizations) and only think on those things which are above. We are also told in Corinthians that we must see Christ in the mirror when we look at ourselves...also we are told to see (visualise) ourselves when we read the Bible (its a mirror of who we really are)
New Age have stolen a lot from Christianity.

Faith is being sure of what you do not see yet.

Hebrews 11
1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

So if I cannot see it in the NOW, how am I suppose to receive it, if I do not follow that which God teaches me: calling things which are not as if they were?

Faith is the SUBSTANCE ............

Here Jesus Himself tells us to do this: Now Miki, when I have told you this myself you tell me its "hog wash"

Mark 11:24 (King James Version)

24Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

So that would make Jesus New Age as well according to your teaching. He tells us , when we pray, to receive it BEFORE we see it, THEN we shall have it..............calling things which are not....as if they were.


Its all about the cross !!!!!!! He has done it ALL. I am merely taking ALL that He has done BY FAITH. I am only agreeing with the Word of God. I cannot conjure, but I can have faith in the DONE work of the cross. He NEVER fails...the Word will always come through for us who believe only the Word.

Sorry Miks, I love you girl, but your knowledge of the Bible is too general. That is dangerous. All this "God looks at the heart" stuff...I know He does look at the heart., but that is not all. He wrote a whole Book for us to teach us how. These things were written so that we might KNOW.
C

I understand and know the scriptures of which you speak and have no issue what so ever.

C...What l'm saying is you imply our salvation is conditional when you constantly bring up how we need to grow more...get more...be more... You discourage people into thinking they can never get there.

When l was into a humanistic way of thinking l was always striving to get there. When l understood salvation l could rest in him and not have to lean on my own understanding thank God!

The hope is that when one believes with the heart he is saved. Period.
There is nothing else that can be added to make that more so.

Yes... I have a general understanding of the Bible. Not thorough. But how hard is it to Love God and your neighbor? In deed...It is hard. People need it spelled out l guess. Learning all the ins and outs that cause their faith to grow. Seeing miracles and signs and wonders. God gave it all so we could believe.

It's a merciful and good thing. Thinking men need proof and directions.

Some just go forward on blind faith. There can be pitfalls no doubt. I'm learning more of the word everyday but all the more learning won't get me more saved...just better able to help others to understand that along with salvation comes certain perks... Thanks for reminding me that my ignorance of scripture shows. It spurs me on to continue in the word.

Galatians 5 (NIV): 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

I was worried that I might have hurt you by saying that about your Bible knowledge. Sorry if I did.

I also do not want anybody to feel "not good enough" because I know that feeling.

SO: First:::: I believe that it is not what you do, but what you believe. What I know we have to believe is that ALL was done and finished at the cross. Jesus came and died and became our substitute. So in fact , when God looks at the believer, He sees you and I on that cross. (The Bible in fact tells us: we have been crucified with Christ) So He died and those who believe, died with Him...therefor, when God looks at us now He says: OK, your sins have been paid for...I saw you on that cross. Jesus., took us with Him and covered us in His perfection so that IN HIM, Who was without blemish, our sins were paid for.God sacrificed us on that cross....but it was Jesus. We were hidden in Him.

The same way we were resurrected in Him. He took us with Him out of that grave. So the believer can now say: I have been resurrected with Christ.All this Jesus did, way back then.(But God does not live in time, today is like yesterday or 2000 years ago)

Next thing that Bible teaches us: God first saves our spirit.Then our minds (soul) and lastly our bodies.
So when most people tell you they are saved, they actually are talking only of their spirit. The Bible teaches us that we have still to be changed "by the renewing of the mind" That is the next step:

This renewing of the mind is where the Word comes into play.
First I have to say this: We say we love Jesus. Jesus says: I am the Word. So ask yourselves this: How much do I love/honour/know the Word. Don't answer me.....just think about it, and that would give you an idea of how much you love Jesus.He also knows the answer to this question. That is why He says that He looks at the heart. He knows.

So the spirit is saved (and Paul teaches it cannot sin) but the mind (soul) and body still can.

The answer God gives us is: replace your mind, by the Word of God.

Simple.

Be ye changed by the renewing of your mind. This means, first praying for understanding, because the Word is locked to those who think they have it in them to break it open with human understanding. That is silly thinking...only God who is spirit, can tell us about the spirit. Flesh cannot enter there, by understanding only.I pray Psalm 119 back to God and it works. He opens the Word and also GIVES the love for it.

The body will eventually react to the truth and submit. Its last to go.

The main thing that I believe , that most people battle with agreeing with me, is that Jesus already gave us all things IN HIM. I call it Bible logic (I did not think this up one night, I am not alone in this understanding, so relax, its not a new doctrine....even Paul and Jesus agrees with this)

Bible Logic says: We are dead...Christ now lives in us.....only God can bring Him to maturity in us...but God is using our faith...its not going to happen without faith...faith is a gift, and must be used, without it we cannot please God....so seeing that I am no more and Christ is now in me, all that I do must come from Him...its Him that love people through me, its Him that brings them healing, its HIM THAT OVERCOMES for me. I am dead and cannot do these things, but He is alive and CAN. Less of me and more of Him.
The more Word (Jesus) I get in me, the more my mind is renewed by Him. The more He manifests in my life,...the more fruit I will have (Christ-fruit)
That is why Jesus said to the disciples when they asked Him about His return: He gave this strange answer:



He told them that they will see Him again, but first they will see Him IN themselves. In His "Body of Christ"
Rather a logical place to look for Him, would be in His body.
He tells them, like a woman in travail they (we ...all believers...disciples) are having sorrow.
WHY?:
Because like a baby, Christ is forming in His disciples.He knows that they are dead and no longer live and that His WORD is now the seed in them, that will produce after Its kind. Christ's seed, produces Christ in those , who like Mary say: Let it be to me according to thy WORD.
The sorrow we feel is the dying to self. Its not easy to let go of the flesh and to allow Christ to stand up in us.

See: Jesus said..............for joy that A MAN is born into the world.

Jesus already knew He was going to tell John the same thing in Revelation a bit later:Rev 12



Both Scriptures are talking about the same event: Death to self...Christ now in us...the Word becoming part of us, changing us.....Christ forming by faith, growing stronger by the feeding of the Word....then the woman (church) in travail....giving birth to a MAN child. Not a MALE child.




This is getting too long. There are many more Scriptures that teaches us about this. Jesus Himself spoke about this. Its very clear in the Bible.
I know it creates questions, but there are answers to all of those..God wrote a whole Bible to teach us this, and this reply of mine is getting too long.
enough for now
love C

Why does the wolrd rejoice?
Because they are continually fulfilling the desires of the flesh

Why do we have sorrow?
Because we are daily dying to self (the daily sacrifice in this temple of God....we all know by now that we are the temple)

Only if we close our eyes willingly to the truth, will we deny that Jesus is telling the disciples that THEY are being compared to this woman who is in travail and has sorrow.

The church is always compared with a woman. In fact all religious systems are compared with a woman of sorts.
God's parable of the woman, is related to receiving seed. To bring forth. That is why the whore is used also as a type. She receives seed from different "men" .God wants His church/woman/bride to only receive the seed of the Word. We are not suppose to receive doctrines of men, only the unleavened Bread of the Word.

Just like Esther, who was attended by a eunuch (he cannot give his own seed) in preparation for the King.
We must in some way also be eunuchs:




God is not talking here of castrated men, but of eunuchs in the way that they deliver the Word. Keeping the sabbaths as we know : for the New Testament Christian , means to rest from your own works and allow God to bring His promises to pass. So these "eunuchs" are delivering the pure Word and they are trusting it as well to be true and that God will honour His Word.
The result of this is that God..... I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off

...................

We have to realise that God did not JUST save us and now we are on our way to heaven. He very clearly did something else as well:
He told us that Christ is now in us.

You have to answer this question to yourself: Why was it necessary to have Christ in me. Why did God not say...OK, you are forgiven now, welcome to heaven. My Son paid, just believe and enter.
NO! Why did He also say: Christ is now IN YOU. And why does Paul say that He must be fully formed? And why work out our salvation with fear and trembling?Why do we still need to overcome? Why is there a race to run? Why is there a woman that is in travail...why is she in childbirth, who is the child?Who is the father of this child?

All question have answers.
Ask and ye shall receive, knock and it will be opened

C

[url= http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~revival/signs.html]link[/url]

I just happen to come across this today.
C

Getting spurred only hurts for a minute...

But you're answer (s) to my post is a case in point. God has caused me to understand the word in simple terms and relay it. It's a little piece of a gift. Are there jots and tittles? Are their loop holes? It must be what you all are looking for.

Again...

When you believe in your heart you're saved...Service is an outpouring of gratitude. A form of worship, if you will, with your life...

Why are you so worried about the flesh that's still mingled in when Jesus said he would finish his work? I trust him at his word and lean into him daily.

I'm growing...Sometimes l am distracted by the world but he draws me to him in prayer daily. He told me it would be hard but that's OK, l know it was hard for him too. He's coming back to get me and he's preparing me for the event. I'm not goofing around C...I'm just explaining the truth to people like me. It's a good thing.

Do you need help people? Let your conscience be your guide. You can find it again...If you haven't listen for a while it can get buried in the weeds but Jesus sent his Holy Spirit to help you. I will never give up because l can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

There are heady teachers for heady people. That's OK too. But what l do is ground lay...and water, which is my main calling.

The harvest is coming and those called according to his purpose will be ready...those asleep will be shaken awake...Judgement belongs to the Lord.

I agree. I also believe He will finish that which He has started in me.

So, Miki, you have said it: we are all meant to do what we feel called to do.
I share what I believe to be the truth about the Word and so do you. Nothing wrong with that.Some of the things I ask questions about, you can glide over. I cannot, that is not the way the Lord has put me together.I am made this way so are you.
I try and get people to go back to the Word/Bible and believe it again. When you have that angle in your life, you actually see how many Christians are ignorant of the Bible. The very life source of the spirit. There where we get our Zoe life from.

A friend of mine told me the other day, I make too much of the Bible. She uses is as a stepping stone , and that is it. In her eyes I am making an idol out of the Bible. She would rather hear the voice of God for herself. She hears a voice alright....a voice telling her to tell her friend to divorce because her husband is standing in the way of her ministry...and many other such "revelations"
So the people of God are not ALL Word bound and secure.Many are drifting. I love them, and feel to go after them and bring them back to the Rock. I have a need to help carry them off the sand. I am not alone in this, I know that and I praise God for others who also do the same.

We are called to unity. At the moment that is a bit of a joke when we look at the church. BUT unity is possible:only for those who agree IN the Word. Easy: believe only the Bible again and see that you have many brothers and sisters who actually agree as one. Those do not fight, because they agree.Nothing to fight about, when you are in agreement with the Word of God. We then walk as one, because we are one in Him/the living Word/Jesus. So I tend to go there always: I relate the Bible. I tell people what is written there.
Some disagree , because they do not actually know what is written, they still have too many doctrines of men they believe.
I have to tell an embarrassing truth. Some time ago I still quoted "scripture" on this forum. Then I got into the habit of double checking the scriptures before posting. Then I found out that some of the "scriptures" I quoted, does not exist in the Bible. Through the years, people have told me things and I have taken it as Biblical truth.........oh dear. But God helped me.

So, that is me...I love the Bible and the truth of it. It has challenged me, changed me and is saving my soul.It is life too me.It really is a lamp for our feet, because we are really walking in the darkness of this world.
love C

In social services l deal mostly with the hurting and down trodden. Sometimes l'm able to form personal relationships outside of my work. People are amazed when l talk about the scriptures in a way they can relate to and understand. Amos for instance. I'm thankful to great teachers that have shown me that scripture is something l can really understand and relate to. I try to pass it on.

C... What do think l'm not facing about scripture that l glide over...What truth? (In a nut shell please.)

You mostly speak your feelings and seldom use scripture to back a point.

You tend to say things that I have heard from the pulpits for a long time, but that has no scriptural backing

(I am going to get into trouble now, but you asked)...your views on overcoming sin is not scriptural.

You avoid Rev 12/John16/Rom 8 (verse 19 you never acknowledge) you have told me in so many words that I talk "hog wash" when I say its real.



I will stop there C

OK C... Hog Wash is about having to be good enough...Not about Gods word...

But lets cut to the chase... One truth at a time. Put it in a nut shell for me. Which truth am l denying. When you say l speak my feeling and not scripture isn't the answer. Lets get specific. So you think about it and let me know. You pluck the chicken...l don't have much time on line. Lets address each issue specifically... Go for it!

1.) ?

Miki, first tell me ...do you use e-sword? If not, then please download it, its for free.

http://www.e-sword.net

Then I would rather show you something exiting, and if that is not enough...we can talk about your question above.
C

No l don't have it and can't download it but l know what you want to do...

You want to take me down this long and winding path to prove to me we have to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in order to be ready...I already know it C...I'm not glossing over it. l want to be ready.

The Lord is making me ready through the trials of life...I'm still saved...I can't add one drop to my salvation by being good.

I only cooperate with the Holy Spirit as he makes me presentable to represent the name of the Lord..

So what more do l need to know?

You presume too much. That is not why I want you to have it. It is a good tool that is very helpful in Bible study. That's all.No hidden agendas.

Are you always so mistrusting of people?
C

No...but you won't get to the simple point.

Maybe its a good idea , when we talk, that you also use a few Scriptures that back up your view. It is something that the Lord demands of us..let me be the first



I take that , that we should only speak the Word to each other. What else would be the "oracles of God"?
C

Nothing but the blood of Jesus...

You need scripture to know it for sure...?
I don't have time now but may later.
Have a great day in the Lord C...

I have been away, went out to have a bite to eat


Yes Miki, that scripture would be nice to have about only needing the blood
C

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Isn't that a wonder? I say that because it is absolutely true, so much so, that it is only a tip of an iceberg, so to speak

I only see the tip but believe there is soooo much more!

Are you walking in the Light as He is in the Light? Do you have fellowship with Him? After the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth you from all sin. Then what? Do you continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Are you walking in the righteousness of Christ? Are you walking in the Light? If not then it is time to read the red letter edition of the new testament and only read what Christ said and taught.

1 Corinthians 3
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He catches the wise in their own craftiness";
20 and again, "The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."


*

I do lean more to grace than the law but they are both important and Jesus came to fulfill the law.


Law---------------------------------------------Grace

Both are equally important..

Some need to follow the recipe. We should also know the cook. The taste test doesn't always work.

The tertian quid. Point well taken C...

Some don't cook with a recipe...
Others need to follow the letter of the law, yet they don't know how many grains of salt are in a teaspoon...

I will clarify to anyone who wants to know.

I believe I do walk in the light of Christ!

However, I pray to the Lord, I will never question another as to whether they walk in the light when they say that they also walk in the light of Christ. But, I will believe in the Spirit of God that the person who says he or she does is my brother or sister in Christ!

HB, walking in the light is simply walking according to the knowledge that one has. Some has more, some has less, but its important to walk in that light that you have. To be faithful to the truth that has been revealed to you.

Miki, you say "point taken" ...it sounds like we agree on something, but I have to admit that I am missing somewhat what you are referring to. Sorry girl, but fill me in please.......

Yep! And if you don't wait for the Rapture, it won't take you either! Jesus told us to "pray and WATCH"!!!

The Rapture is a "TIME THING"; like a COUNTDOWN!!!

This countdown IS THE MARK OF THE TIME, up until the Rapture.

3 1/2 years after the Rapture, this will be the "TIME OF THE MARK"!!!