I LOVE it Miki. I simply love it.

Yes I know it seems to you like that, Miki

I just wanted to add this understanding about communion and the feast:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (Jn.1.1-4; 14)

Then:

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54Whoso eats my flesh, and drinks my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn.6.53)

Maybe a bit off topic: but look, here Jesus tells us that if we do not eat the Word, we have NO life in us.That is why I carry on about knowing the Bible.

You always hate it when I say that many will be lost, who think they are saved. But I see scripture like the above and I know that Jesus said it, so what must I do with that knowledge? Its only those who eat and drink the Word that has that life. The word "saved" is in many cases an on going process in the Bible..."being saved"

I have left the "church" because what they preach is not "flesh and blood" anymore. I congregate with the brethren that believe that too. We are few....but we are.
C

When I look at the Old Testament "Rapture" Scriptures, I love the Noah "shadow"


and there is another one:




Praise God. What a day it will be.

C

I just want to post this scripture. It's been on my mind lately and now in my heart to post.

Matthew 18:6
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Mark 9:42
And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.


Luke 17:2
It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

...it's so important that it appears in three of the four Gospels. What Jesus says here is that if any should cause a believer to lose their faith in Christ there will be consequences for the person who caused this.

That's why I wish to simply praise Christ and keep my mouth shut about "how to get saved" that is beyond believing in Christ. I will not say that anyone is or will be found doing this, I dare not say that, but I believe this is a warning from the Lord, and I pray I heed it well.

I want to be the salt of the world! I want to be the light for Christ!

Yea, that would be nice, HB, but we cannot just keep quiet.




If you are aware of a fault, you have to warn.The word "offend" you quote means:

G4624
σκανδαλίζω
skandalizō
skan-dal-id'-zo
To “scandalize”; from G4625; to entrap, that is, trip up (figuratively stumble [transitively] or entice to sin, apostasy or displeasure): - (make to) offend.

What we must to is to warn. If you see your brother sleeping next to a fire and his feet is about to be set on fire, please warn him and do not worry about offending him by waking him up.He might be a bit grumpy when you wake him, but he will thank you later.

If you can wake somebody up and save their lives for eternity , so much the better.

I have been woken up by just such a man, and I have personally thanked him more than once for taking the time and love to do so. I was just drifting along merrily and he blew a trumpet in my ear.
Praise God.
C

C, I believe you are a Christ inspired man.

But, who is "we"?

I take ownership of my words so that I do not speak on anyones behalf

"Yea, that would be nice, HB, but I cannot just keep quiet."

"What I must do is to warn."

If I should be proven correct then I know these are NOT my words for it is only the Spirit of God that speaks the truth

If I am proven wrong I will admit to it and repent

HB, "we" as in Christians.

Dear friend, dear brother

"we" as in Christians believe differently in many different ways. If it matters to God only God can reconcile those differences.

It's something I must understand whenever I use "we"

Will obedience to the Spirit cause Christ to be fully formed in us thereby enabling us to make it through the tribulation and wrath unscathed...doing mighty wonders all along the way and winning many to Christ?

Or... Is seeing through a glass darkly true until we see him face to face? I am not always obedient to the Spirit because in this body l cannot fully take it in. The light is to bright as Larry has so graciously reminded.

So until l have my new body it won't be possible for me to make a conscience decision to be obedient to the Spirit. (all the time that is) However, Christ will work in me to protect and lead me regardless of my knowledge of it...

Sometimes l won't understand what he is doing and l will kick and scream...Can l upset his plan? Yes and no. He knows the beginning from the end and has made provision. Head stubbornness will still be judged..both now and then ... to chastise, instruct, and reward...

BUT THE ULTIMATE PROVISION IS THE BLOOD.

It's my fail safe. He began this good work and will complete it. I'm not actively trying to be disobedient... I'm actively trying to be obedient. The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. The weakness is cover by the blood.

I can't earn my way to the rapture through obedience...even to the Spirit in this body. At least not
consciously...He will lead me if l am ignorant of the whole scripture...He will lead me if l have a humble heart and come before him daily asking for help and mercy....

He will also let me walk in the flesh till the day l die if l don't do those things...(pray with a humble heart seeking mercy and forgivness daily) I will be hardened over with a presumptuous spirit that tells me l'm free to do any old thing l want and the blood will cover me. He tells us to remember the branches that were broken off.

So what makes be ready for the finally trumpet? My obedience to the Spirit which takes us back to the law?

Or my trust in the free gift of grace and mercy that I didn't earn and l can't maintain through obedience..... but can only be maintained through humility fear and trust?

That's why l know l will be ready...Because God has brought me through thus far based on those things described above...and l know he will complete this in me. My spots and blemishes are covered because l take myself before him daily to be cleansed.

HB says that we all disagree.....its because we all do not believe ONLY the Word. We add.We subtract.It must fit US and not ......we must submit to the Word.
So you are correct.

Miki:Seeing in a glass darkly is for now, and it will be taken away when we see Him ON THIS PLANET. In heaven its useless.When we see Him, we will be like Him.



Oh I get an opportunity to say it as well Hog wash !!
scripture???...................


Yes , but willing sin is not. There are three types of sin: willing, unknowing, and the one that you fight against and have repented from, but still have trouble will....a "presumptuous sin"


Oh dear Miki, this sounds good, but its actually against what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches that we MUST maintain it through obedience.
"If you love me, obey my commandments"
My friend, this is a very serious error.



God placed His total revelation in your hands, why would He say: I understand, you never wanted to know, you never asked, so you are free, because you did not care, although it was on your bedside table all those years.
Why would you ask for help and mercy if you are already saved? Where does it teach that ,that is all that we have to do?


Sorry Miki, it sounds all very spiritual , but that is all. Its just some "poetic" thoughts that you put together. My friend..........the time is VERY short.
God is coming back for the Fruit...the fruit is Christ in us. He is not coming back for the tree.
The Word is Christ. Why is this so difficult for Christians to understand?
C











PS, the reason this is not making sense to you is that you are actually still trying to do this yourself.
Everybody who "tries" to please the Spirit and "sometimes" gets it right is moving in the flesh.
ONLY faith in the DONE work of Jesus will save form this dilemma.

Somehow I lack the energy today to do this now: but......................................................the ONLY answer is receiving the perfection, freedom, sinless state, healing............by faith as DONE BY JESUS for us.

Al the rest is :Hog wash ( I am starting to like your expression )

Hog wash back at ya! You didn't read closely...I don't have time to answer now...but later.

PS, the reason this is not making sense to you is that you are actually still trying to do this yourself.
Everybody who "tries" to please the Spirit and "sometimes" gets it right is moving in the flesh.
ONLY faith in the DONE work of Jesus will save from this dilemma.

Somehow I lack the energy today to do this now: but......................................................the ONLY answer is receiving the perfection, freedom, sinless state, healing............by faith as DONE BY JESUS for us.

Al the rest is :Hog wash ( I am starting to like your expression )

Miki, as always, I agree with you!
I believe that many of us are over reacting and making the Bible more complicated that it is; and calling it "Scripture knowledge"!

God is the supreme being, intelligent to the infinite, therefore his Word (not ours!) has to be written in a way where there will be no confusion. God is not the author of confusion.

Jesus told us to "WATCH" and pray! Do any of you have ears to hear?

"Faith in the done work in Christ" feels very true to me, but I am leery to think I can or have achieved a perfect state on earth.

Rather I believe "Faith in the done work in Christ" awaits with my sinless and perfect state in heaven.

What is left on Earth today is only believing in Christ and looking forward to that day.

Cornelius! I can't always hear the Spirit correctly.... that is why i'm not always obedient...Not because l'm necessarily willful (though sometimes that is the case) but not mostly.

I can't hear the Spirit always because it's so brilliant it's blinding...so l only see in part BUT NEVER THE LESS the Lord will lead me in the ways l don't understand...protecting and ordering my steps according to His knowledge of all things.

Willful disobedience is different and will be dealt with differently. Obedience to the word equals being obedient to the Spirit according to the new covenant by faith. By faith l trust the Lord through his Holy Spirit to lead me through the things l don't understand and can't figure out because l only see in part. The Spirit is never in disagreement with the word but sometimes God will have a person move in a confusing direction that seems to contradict what we we think we know.

I'm not perfect and won't be in this life but the Lord has covered my weakness. I'm saved. Once and for all and l'm not playing a game and you try to imply l am because l don't claim perfection as a possibility according to my own will ...my flesh and my ability to hear the Spirit in every situation.

I rely on the blood, grace and faith in THE LORD JESUS CHRIST to lead and cover me. Not perfect obedience to the word because it's never been done except by Christ.

(And thanks for your acknowledgement Senteami.)

And C...I'M NOT THE ONE TRYING TO DO IT MYSELF! YOU ARE!!! Claiming we can reach somekind of Spiritual nirvana and become super humans that will float through the tribulation and wrath based on our ability to operate fully in the gifts having Christ completely formed in us.

You! It's You saying it. It's like you haven't heard one thing l've said about grace and faith.

My dad once told me, after we had both read the Left Behind books years ago and last year after listening to some strange teachings that made me ultra-paranoid, that He trusts that the Lord will see him through *whatever* happens! He draws nearer to Christ everyday instead of wondering how the world will end and he believes that Christ will lead him through whatever trouble may come in the future. If you see anything but Christ's hold on you, you will be swept away. Whether we are raptured or tortured, we must believe that it is for the glory of Jesus Christ and His people. We have absolutely no power but to destroy ourselves, only Christ will receive glory for what He has done for those who believe in Him.

Like the Bible teaches: Let it be to you according to your faith. (If that is what you believe, that is what you will have )

I just want to add: When you say that

HB, you say it all. Its you who are trying. You are not actually understanding the previous part of the sentence: DONE works of JESUS.........not you or me.

Read what Miki is saying. She is also thinking I am trying to do something myself, when in fact I am always saying: Believe the DONE works of JESUS....not US TRYING , but us "Faith-ing" (I know there is no such a word, but it makes sense)

I know by what Miki is saying that she will never reach perfection here, because she thinks its US that must do it. Because its me who is writing this, she will not hear it (out of principle.but that is OK ) She is missing the "done work" that Jesus has already perfected us IN HIM. She is looking at me thinking: Can't you see you are still not perfect!!!!!!!!!!!!1 not realising that I have taken a perfection that is not mine, just as I have taken a righteousness that is not mine............it was given.

Fact is, I believe the Word when it tell us what Jesus did. Some cannot see this truth of being perfect , because they always keep on looking at themselves and not at Jesus.
Well, keep on doing that and then stay as you are..........always battling, never walking in victory, never overcoming..for it truly will be to you according to your faith.

I am off to my home church now....will be back later
C

Hog wash?

Matthew 8
32 And suddenly the whole herd of swine ran violently down the steep place into the sea, and perished in the water.

C...Exactly the opposite of what l believe. I tell you and you keep ignoring me? Why? Go back and read my posts again. I've said it over and over. I can't do it. No man has done it. Christ did it. His blood covers my weakness. It's by faith and grace.

Godsloft...that's kinda funny...

Agape....What your Dad says...I came to that conclusion along time ago. Not because of trying to deal with the reality of the end times but because of my own trying times. It was so very freeing. It's when you've done everything you know to do...physical, emotionally mentally and spiritually...and it happens anyway...Life is like that. A person must give it all over to God and live the best way they know and trust him with your life. My faith takes me through. It doesn't keep me from persecution nor death that may come....... but it's not in this life l hope in. A song is coming...

My hope is built on nothing less
than Jesus' blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
but wholly lean on Jesus' name.

On Christ the solid rock I stand,
all other ground is sinking sand;
all other ground is sinking sand.

When Darkness veils his lovely face,
I rest on his unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
my anchor holds within the veil.
(Refrain)

His oath, his covenant, his blood
supports me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
he then is all my hope and stay.
(Refrain)

When he shall come with trumpet sound,
O may I then in him be found!
Dressed in his righteousness alone,
faultless to stand before the throne!

On Christ the solid rock I stand,
all other ground is sinking sand;
all other ground is sinking sand.

C, here is the warning in me that makes me cautious to what you are saying.

Luke 18:9-14

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Does the publican tries? Does the publican understand? No, he does not, yet he is justified before Christ for his humility.

Does the publican hold judgement towards the Pharisee? No, for the Publican is only concerned and is grieved by his state. But the Pharisee judges and in doing questions the Publican's faith.

I tell you, C, I have faith and believe in Christ as my savior and my thanks to Christ is that HE has given me this faith! I have but doubt and what I try to do is flee the Lord, yet the love Christ has for me is undeniable and it draws me to him.

Luke 5:8
When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.

Who soever the Lord calls upon HE will have. My faith is, what Christ says happens, for if he delares me unfaithful I am MADE unfaithful, but if Christ declares me faithful I am MADE faithful. This to me agrees with what you say in believing the DONE works in Christ.

But Peter tried by saying he would go to prison and to death for Jesus. What should I think then when Christ said to Peter that Peter will deny Christ three times? I say it is not a prophecy but the manifestation of the Word to glorify Christ. That Peter's denial was as good as being done before it happen because Christ had said it. That's the Word. Now, if Peter had appealed to Christ "Say it will not be so, for I truely desire to do anything for you Lord!" Jesus could have reconsidered, and had Jesus said "Very well..."
then where would Peter's denial be? I tell you where, it would have been taken up by the Word of God spoken by Christ and not by Peter's will.

How then do I "try" if I believe as such? I will tell you, I do not try but I am left only with faith to believe everyday in the grace of Christ for it is the light burden that Christ speaks of, and I will tell anyone who asks what I believe, that who ever believes in this way carries in them a great faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ.

But for me my natural self is to put down the Lord's burden and take up the things that my flesh desire. If this pleases the Lord then I will suffer the consequences for it. But if the Lord would be merciful to me, which I do pray then he will say "Abandon the flesh entirely and take up my burden" it will be done not because I entreat the Lord's word as a request but rather the Lord's Word as a manifestation. That is the difference between trying and believing, that one way invites the notion of "choices" the other that there are "no choices."

That's why I don't believe in free will, that's why the stone that is Christ has ground me to powder.

I have guests again and cannot spend too much time here: just this so long:
HB in that scripture you should just read the first bit as well:

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

Your concern would only work, if you trusted in yourself
C

Matthew 11
16 But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,
17 and saying: 'We played the flute for you, And you did not dance; We mourned to you, And you did not lament.'
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.'
19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."


20 Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent:
21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.
23 And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you."

Repent and believe the Gospel

HB...I don't have much time this morning but start believing in free will. You are free to make choices or why would there be judgements and rewards? Think it through again.

Dear C, in Luke 18:9, Jesus was speaking of the Pharisees, who really believed they were righteous in God's eyes, who were also downcast to the others by not taking pity or symphathy in those they had deemed unrighteous.

If I "trusted" myself like this I would be acting not like a hypocrite, but like the outward adulterer not understanding that my adultery is sinful.

I would not interpret this sole scripture as license to trust that I am righteous.



Dear Miki, you've ask the Lord and he has answered you many times...Larry who writes with a pen and the Lord supplies the paper...

If you say that I must believe in free will then pray to Christ that I must believe in free will. Appeal on my behalf that the Lord will correct my misguided understanding in things. He will answer you.

Its interesting that after all this time on the forum, HB, you can still think that I meant "trust in yourself' when I quoted that scripture. It can only mean that you have not really understood a word of all my previous posts.

Miki tell me that I trust in myself too, although a write mostly about believing the Word, and resting in the promises.
Point 2, is that Miki tells me that she believe that the blood is what she believes in and not herself: But she also in the same breath tells me that she will never be holy, sanctified or perfect (which means mature in Greek) because SHE cannot do it. HB you also have the same view. So if she believes she will never be these things it can only mean one thing: Believing you must do this yourself. (Its an oxymoron)

On the other hand. I say that I believe that only Jesus can do all these things in me (in all of us) But I believe that these truths , that are in the Bible, are true. Where it says: Be ye holy, for I am holy" I actually have the nerve to think: Maybe He is serious.

In fact. most Christians believe (well I sincerely hope they do) that they are righteous, through a righteousness that is not there own. They refer back to the cross by faith. They do not see this righteousness, yet ,because it will get them into heaven they cling to that believe by faith, but they seem incapable of doing the same thing with: "be ye holy" "you are perfect" ,and "sin not". They actually then go back to: I cannot do this, this will only be in heaven.

If they said the same thing about their righteousness, they would be lost.

So the question is WHY. Why do they believe the one thing that they cannot see with ease , yet cannot do the same with the other promises. Could it be that the other statements would mean that they would actually have to repent of certain things,stop sinning, believe God?
I guess that is really the question.
C

free will..........our will was bound over to sin and not free, before we knew God.
After we met God our will is bound to His will.
C

I am quoting this,............if anybody really wants to read the whole article,: here is the link:
LINK

We think we convince people sometimes into knowing the Lord, accepting the Lord, accepting a doctrine, but, it really doesn't work that way, does it? The Bible says God grants repentance. Proverbs 21:1 is a good scripture reference, among others.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of Jehovah as the watercourses: He turneth it whithersoever he will.

God is the only one that the Bible gives credit for being sovereign; the devil has no sovereignty. God works all things after the council of His own will; He doesn't council with us about what He wants to do - right? A man can receive nothing except it come from heaven, the Bible says. Proverbs 21:1 says the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord as the watercourses or as the channels, He turneth it whithersoever He will. In other words, God can turn a person's heart any way He wants to turn it; and He did that with us. We didn't choose Him, Jesus said; He chose us. Blessed is the man that thou choosest and cause to approach unto thee. God causes us to approach Him. Before approaching Him, we really just wanted to go our own way and do our own thing, but the Lord by His mercy and grace gave us this gift to come. It's such an awesome gift. For instance, the Gentiles didn't come to God for thousands of years, right? Why did the Gentiles come to God after thousands of years? The Lord chose them. And what did God do when He did choose them?

Acts 11:18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then to the Gentiles also hath God granted repentance unto life.

It's very important that we understand this; otherwise we'll be trusting in our own works and see an awful lot of failure. There are several reasons for this. God generally just backs up and waits as long as we are doing our works, and when we give up and put our trust in Him, His power is there.

Repentance has to be granted by God. Otherwise, people would just go their own way; because we are just what we are. It takes God from the outside to put something in us to cause us to be something that we are normally not. God's grace, which is unmerited favor, grants repentance. When we find lack in ourselves, or lack in our ability, or lack in our will-power, or lack in anything, we can go to God and He will take care of it for us. David prayed many prayers asking for help, such as in Psalm 119. David counted on God to turn his heart in the direction he wanted it to go.

Psalm 119:10 With my whole heart have I sought thee: Oh let me not wander from thy commandments. Psalm 119:17-18 Deal bountifully with thy servant, that I may live; So will I observe thy word. (18) Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.

Psalm 119:25-29 My soul cleaveth unto the dust: Quicken thou me according to thy word. (26) I declared my ways, and thou answeredst me: Teach me thy statutes. (27) Make me to understand the way of thy precepts: So shall I meditate on thy wondrous works. (28) My soul melteth for heaviness: Strengthen thou me according unto thy word. (29) Remove from me the way of falsehood; and grant me thy law graciously.
Psalm 119:31-37 I cleave unto thy testimonies: O Jehovah, put me not to shame. (32) I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart. (33) Teach me, O Jehovah, the way of thy statutes; And I shall keep it unto the end. (34) Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; Yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. (35) Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; For therein do I delight. (36) Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, And not to covetousness. (37) Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity, and quicken me in thy ways.

David had faith in the Lord; this included the power and the sovereignty of God to change his mind and his heart and put in him the will he needed.

We're told the Lord works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure. If our faith is towards the Lord to change us, instead of us picking up our own bootstraps, as the world says, we'll have some victory.



If not, we are going to fail consistently, because we have faith in ourselves.



For example, Peter was sure he would not deny the Lord, but the Lord turned and told him, Before the cock crows you're going to deny me three times. Peter was self-confident; he wasn't God-confident. The Lord told him that Satan has desired to sift him as wheat, but the Lord prayed for him that his faith wouldn't fail him. Peter wasn't operating in faith, he was operating in self-confidence. You could see David's faith in the Lord; he had faith in the Lord to draw him, keep him, deliver him from sin, and to put in him a will and desire that belonged there. His faith was in the Lord. David's faith certainly wasn't in himself. Peter's faith was in himself and that's why he fell; he needed to fall. He needed to be a failure so that he would learn that lesson. Look at 1 Chronicles 29 (this is a prayer of David too). It's amazing how we usually look at people in the Old Testament as having less light than people in the New Testament, because we know that they lived under types and shadows and really didn't know the revelation of those types/shadows that we do now. But David, as far as I can see, almost lived a New Testament life with the Lord, because he understood the sovereignty of God and depended upon God for his grace to be who he was. The following is a prayer of David concerning the offering of the temple (when they were taking up offerings to build the temple):

1 Chronicles 29:10-14 Wherefore David blessed Jehovah before all the assembly; and David said, Blessed be thou, O Jehovah, the God of Israel our father, for ever and ever. (11) Thine, O Jehovah, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O Jehovah, and thou art exalted as head above all. (12) Both riches and honor come of thee, and thou rulest over all; and in thy hand is power and might; and in thy hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all. (13) Now therefore, our God, we thank thee, and praise thy glorious name. (14) But who am I, and what is my people, that we should be able to offer so willingly after this sort? for all things come of thee, and of thine own have we given thee.

Jesus said, All power in heaven and earth has been given unto me. If we need power, where do we have to get it? We don't have any power. Jesus Himself said that He was nothing without the Father; He couldn't do anything without the Father. This is certainly true about us. Our power comes from God by grace and in most cases it has to come because of our faith. We believe God has delivered us from sin through Jesus Christ; we believe God has delivered us from the curse through Jesus Christ; we believe these things. God gives us back to do what is right. We need to get our strength from the Father. Did you catch the "willingly" part of the 14th verse? He gave them this will. Anyplace we lack we can go to the Father and He will help us; He will give us grace to will His will.

Jesus said he who the son sets free is free indeed. Do you know how He really sets us free? Do you know what freedom is? Freedom is the ability or lack of restraint from doing anything you want to do. However, when you're walking in the lusts of your flesh you can't do anything you want to do; you can't get away with it and you don't have the ability


............................read the rest at the provided LINK above...............

You should use quotes instead of your interpretation of what l said out of context so you don't lead people who are reading this for the first time astray.

It's true...the only perfection l have in this life is none. The blood covers my sins. The blood is my righteousness. I can't do it. That's why he came..to give provision for my salvation. I can't add one drop to that by being good. I am covered. My service to him is an out pouring of graditude.

I've said it over and over again and you keep twisting and l'm not going to have this conversation with you anymore because you're wrong in what you are attempting to do brother. I'm sad for it.

You would have given Paul a hard time too.
C

For the rest of the members reading this, if you are interested in knowing what the Bible says about perfection, here it is: (its still on topic, because all of this relates to the rapture)

We are commanded to be:

(Mt. 5:48) Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

(2 Cor. 13:11) Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

(Gen. 17:1) ...I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

(Deut. 18:13) Thou shalt be perfect with Jehovah thy God.

Perfection is maturity in Christ likeness:

(Eph. 3:14) For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, (15) from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, (16) that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that ye may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; (17) that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, (18) may be strong to apprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, (19) and to know the love of Christ which passeth knowledge, that ye may be filled unto all the fulness of God.

(Eph. 4:11) And he gave some [to be] apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ: (13) till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;

(Col. 1:27) to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (28) whom we proclaim, admonishing every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ;;

(Mt. 13:23) And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

(1 Cor. 13:9) For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; (10) but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away. (11) When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. (12) For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known.


I say again: perfection is MATURITY in Christ-likeness. This is done through FAITH, not striving for something we THINK is perfection.

You pray for it and receive it by faith, just like your salvation. You cannot see it , but you will have it (if you believe).......its called : Christ in you , the hope of glory.

IN...IN...IN...

Not me C...not me....I can do nothing to add to my salvation. Only Christ.

You can repeat all the scriptures you want to try and make it seem like l don't know what scripture says.

I can do nothing apart from Christ. It's only him who recieves the glory. Not my obedience. When you put this spin on interpretation you put a burden on people to do it themselves by trusting in their obedience to acertain their salvation...It's never been done. Only by Christ.

I guess I will leave it up to you to explain to us IN..IN...IN
What does it mean to be IN Christ, Miki?
C

I already have.

Posts on a forum is a very poor subsitute for a good ol fashion, face-to-face, sit down, conversation over tea or coffee.

I imagine you and I will have many of such conversations in the kingdom that is to come my friend, you to Miki

I trust the Lord in all of my being is the belief in me, for it breaks the bonds of earthly concerns.

A father once had many children who promised a great inheritance to them. Many of his children sought to gain their wealth the very day they had heard of it so that they could spend it, others wanted to count the blessings of their fortunes and wanted to know how much they were to earn, and then a few only loved their father not caring of their fortunes to come for their love for him was what they sought.

I am taking "Perfection" to the Bible Study forum.

Miki, I am either an idiot, or I am trying to get you to see something that I can see that you are not getting.I am not trying to be stubborn, but there really is something that the Bible teaches that you are missing, and maybe its because its ME telling you..............you are closing your understanding.
C

You only think l'm not getting it...Misunderstanding of words causes a lot of division..
someones weeping....

Well I hope that you know by now , I do not write on this forum just to talk. It is a serious matter for me to talk about God's Word. We are warned, and I take that warning seriously.
You are correct in saying that words can be misunderstood. I have started a study on being perfect , in the Bible Study, where I can do this slowly and hopefully can get across what I have been trying to say, in a manner that it can be understood.
I never want to hurt anybody, but I have things to say and they are important for me to say in a way that they can be understood.
C

forgive me because this is 18 pages but is someone saying that we will or are made perfect?
we will NEVER be perfect especially when we are in this flesh.

Thanks for your input c-los

Miki, I believe you got it

"He is strong in your weakness"

C-Los, yes this thread is long, and the original topic (rapture) has been hijacked on the topic of perfection. But if you want to get on the ground floor of this study, C has started a thread "Are you Perfect?"

His arguments are compelling, for example in faith I can believe Christ has made me perfect now, which sounds like what C wishes to discuss, but there are very subtle points that questions what perfection is.

For example, weakness, humility, charity are often viewed as "imperfections" in the secular sense, yet these are the things Christ idealizes as perfection.

So, many Christians are these things now In Christ, , which I believe are those things that makes perfection in Christ.

It may be perfection now is made by flaws that Christ mends and continually it seems (i.e. daily prayer and repentance), though some may have the perception perfection is flawlessness not even to commit an act of sin. If I were that way then why ever repent once perfection is achieved, if that is indeed the idea of perfection.

So, I think this study is a matter of understanding "what perfection is" as in is it with or without being meek, charitable, humble, weak, etc.

ok i took my convo over there

The tears don't belong to me but l like the scripture that tells us our strength is made perfect in weakness.
I feel like l'm being forced to prove my salvation to you C... by lining the scriptures up in a row. So take your conversation over there. I don't feel like joining in right now.

Debates do not always have to go our way. That is what a debate is....talking about views. You are taking it personally and that is bad for you.
I do not remember a time that I have questioned your salvation. I have questioned your understanding of some scriptures though. Like myself, you are also getting some of it wrong.
What I have done is to try and get you (and others) to look more closely at Scripture before just writing what you believe the truth should be. Christians are full of little sayings that they think add up to Biblical truth. ...it does not. Little "gospel" sayings like " I am not perfect, just forgiven" Sounds so right , but it is Biblically VERY untrue. You cannot find scripture for that, and yet, people cling to it like it is gospel.


Saying something nice, does not necessarily means it is Biblical. I find that a lot on this and other forums. I actually find that in a lot of Christians in real life as well.

Sorry if it upsets you, but I am a stickler for just Bible ONLY WORD. I cannot base my salvation, believes etc on opinions. I need a rock for my foundation.

I have taken the study into the Bible Study section. Its Biblical and not my opinion, so I invite people to go there, BUT if you commend, PLEASE bring Scripture and not opinion.

Ok C...Here's another one for you! Hog Wash!

I ask you to tell me straight out where we differ in our interpretation of scripture. Do you understand them (the ways) so you can speak simply? You refused. ??? So sure...go over to to another string and lead people away from what's been said here. I'm not joining in since you are on such a roll. I take it personal because it is personal and always has been. I'm not offended by it. I just think that when people get into these tight discussions certain realities are exposed. You've shown the light on my weakness...But l'm covered. I've shown the light on yours...with out being quite as bold.... but nobody's home. You know...I keep ringing the bell but no one comes to the door. Your in there all right cause l hear all the chatter but l can't make sense of it.

It boils down to this in a nut shell since you aren't willing to tackle the simplicity of it so l will again for 4th or 5th or 6th time...

I'm saved by grace through faith. My works are an outpouring of gratitude and a reflection of Christ in me. But l have flesh...just like you... I'm not a Spirit being yet. It's weak but he covered my weakness on the cross with his blood. In fact, just before he got on the cross he proclaimed that truth..."The Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak". What l've done after salvation will be dealt with in heaven when we all get to see each other for what we really are...I can't add to my salvation...only to my rewards.

You take scripture and manipulate the interpretation with a new age spin...trying to prove that perfect obedience is the only thing that will carry us through the tribulation and wrath. You want to prove we are sons of God by our ability to operate in the Spiritual gifts there by avoiding judgement and persecution by what ever means you developed during this preperiod...Hog Wash...

If the rapture isn't pre then l will die right here with all the rest of the people...It's how l will die l guess. Just like now when a Christian is faced with death...faith carries them through it.

Cornelius. I'm not sitting around thinking up cute sayings while munching chips and watching TV...
But the central focus of my life is prayer and how best to serve God. How can l hon the ministries l'm involved in to be in God's will and not my flesh. How can I stay in tune to my personal issues at home and stay in tune with Gods plans for me in ministry. I'm on fire to go go go...but l can't always do that because l have constraints in my life.

What is God saying to me personally. That is the most important issue. He may have one plan for a certain ministry and another plan for me. Being obedient to the Spirits call is difficult at times because it requires sacrifice. I must sacrifice certain personal things and freedoms to do what God requires. The reason l get tired at times is because l haven't laid every burden down. I have no problem admitting that. If l die tomorrow will l go to heaven? Of course...If the rapture comes tomorrow will l go? I hope so. I'm trying to be ready by drawing close enough to the Lord so that l can slip off these weights that hold me down. Perfection is an ambiguous word. How many grains of salt in a teaspoon?

I know what you are thinking C... She still doesn't get it...She thinks she has do it herself..Well in truth it is a joint effort..Because l do believe absolutely in free will. Sorry if that scares you HB...But l want to be with Jesus. It's my choice. I want to be the best reflection of him in this life that l can. It's my choice.

Today l will start a new..

The thing l feel comfortable with is that no matter what the tension in this effort of spirit and or flesh...I'm comfortable with it because l know that Christ has covered my weakness at the cross. Just like Peters and Paul's..That doesn't mean l sit around and munch chips and watch TV and think up cute saying like you are trying to portray me to this forum. Like l'm some air head that doesn't know scripture and has to resort to fanciful sayings to cover my ignorance. I may not be able to pull scripture out of context to build my case like you do but the truth of understanding is in my heart. His name is Jesus. Christ in me...

Every day as l come before him in humility, fear and respect...he lets more light through to my mind. I believe it's a requirement to do his will. Prayer...all important prayer...Then even when l don't know it he's working in and through me to bring his plan to perfection, whether l know it or not.

According to the Bible , you should avoid me, if this is true.
C

That's the way l feel when you cause me to defend understanding by quoting scripture...things that are self explanatory to every believer like "nothing but the blood" It's what the entire Bible is about so how can l quote scripture?

It's the flurry of scripture with gnostic interpretations...

But l like you, see misunderstanding. That is why l want to make salvation simple not hard.
We fight the good fight of faith. Not between each other...

1Ti 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

1Ti 6:13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and [before] Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;

1Ti 6:14 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Faith..that's what we fight to hold on to. Having faith gets rid of the spot and blemish...

1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

I see in part C...So perfection is only in the blood covering. That's how l am made perfect. I trust him to lead because he says he orders my steps...so even though it may seem l'm dancing to the enemies tune God is in control. Even if l misstep, he know it before it happens and has made a way.

I TRUST HIM WITH MY LIFE. He leads me in spite of me...But that doesn't mean l don't try to lay hold of his plans and cooporate...

We have to have faith that there is someone greater than us that can save us. The Bible says this person is Jesus Christ; He is the only one greater than any man because he is not just a human, but the Son of God. We will never do enough good to cover our sins (which we can never stop, by our own strength), we have to have hope in someone that will do that for us. That cannot be another human, because they are just as sinful as we are, but the Bible says that there IS someone who is sinless and who took on the punishment for our sins. We will only be saved of our sins if we Believe that Jesus Christ did indeed do that for us! Or else we will have to defend our sins ourself, and therefore we will be sentenced to death because that is what the penalty of sin is. But the Son of God took that penalty for us and He was raised again by His Father to finally put sin and death to rest, and He will raise up whoever believes all of this, for He took on their sins and they have taken on his sinlessness. Therefore, they will not pay the penalty of death because they have no sins to put them to death! What did WE do? We did the only thing we were told to do, Believe.. and Jesus Christ will do the rest for us, because He is the only one strong enough to because He has been raised from the dead and sits at the right hand of His Father, not bound by sins like we are! All by HIS power and to HIS glory. No need to wonder why the vision of Heaven is filled with angels singing constant praises to God, who wouldn't after all of that?

Praise be to God!!

It doesn't scare me, Miki. Jesus made you that way and so I accept it

Thank you for using Scripture Miki.


A forum is a place full of believers from every walk of life. We have 500 000 people reading this forum per year ( I learned that in my Admin days.) We are responsible to bring the pure Word of God and nothing else. I have dealt with people that do not understand the blood and its power, so when you as a mature Christian post, it has to be with scripture so those who have little knowledge can learn.

I take a lot of time preparing a post. I use wwwblueletterbible.org and www. biblegateway.com , plus e-sword , so that I can look at what the Bible says. I highlight, bold and underline to point out what the scripture says about the subject we are discussing.
Only ONCE about a year ago, did somebody came back and corrected a mistake. I fear God and His Word. We cannot add or take away. I pray before I post and every morning ask for the help of the Holy Spirit. I care about WHAT I teach to the members of this forum, because I will be responsible before God one day.....so I make sure that when I post.............its in the Bible.

C