After recounting the prophecies of End Time events Christ has this to say.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
We may conclude the following from this statement.
Firstly if there were no possibility of us going through these events then there would be no point in warning us.
If I said to you to make sure that you pull you parachute cord lest you fall to your death you would assume that I was preparing to jump out of a plane. Were it not so you would think I was a lunatic.

Secondly knowing that we are in danger of going through these events we must make preparations which include much prayer and purification to ensure that we are worthy to escape them.

Thirdly, having made ourselves worthy God promises that he will make a way of escape. Now pretribbers insist that this promised escape is the rapture. However this argument leaves the unworthy, left behind languishing and condemned to eternal damnation. Is this what the scripture teaches? And are there any scriptural references to Christians escaping end time events in the Bible?

Absolutely. They are found in Rev 12

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Now the interpretation of this is as follows. The man child is Christ. The woman is the Old Testament congregation of Israel. The woman fleeing into the wilderness is the same woman which is the congregation of Israel known in New Testament times as the church. The 1260 days is the great tribulation. The place where the church is protected IS NOT the sky or heaven. IT IS the wilderness.
Notice some other things about this place. IT IS NOT a survivalist retreat because it is prepared by God. God uses a third party (they) to feed the church. This place is safe from the dragon and the beast because when he is unable to penetrate its defences he becomes enraged and does WHAT? Makes war against the rest of the saints.

Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This shows the woman being cared for and protected in the place of safety for 3.5 years of the great tribulation. Time = 1 year, Times = 2 years + half a year. So the remnants of her seed are whatever is left of the church which was not found worthy to escape. These need to be purified with the fire of the tribulation. They must face the prohibitions of the mark of the beast. Many of them will be beheaded.
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Amen excubitor

13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, "Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him."

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men.

8 Shall the earth be made to give birth in one day? Or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion was in labor, She gave birth to her children.
9 Shall I bring to the time of birth, and not cause delivery?" says the Lord. "Shall I who cause delivery shut up the womb?" says your God.

You said:

After recounting the prophecies of End Time events Christ has this to say.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
We may conclude the following from this statement.
Firstly if there were no possibility of us going through these events then there would be no point in warning us.
If I said to you to make sure that you pull you parachute cord lest you fall to your death you would assume that I was preparing to jump out of a plane. Were it not so you would think I was a lunatic.

------------

My thoughts:

OSAS is not true.

1 Tim 6;10
amplified bible
"some have been led astray, and some have wandered from the faith."

Some have shipwrecked their faith, and denied the faith
1 Tim 5;8

John 15
If a Christian is in the true Vine, and stops bearing good fruit, the Vinedresser (the Heavenly father) cuts that branch (christian) off from the Vine.

5 of the ten virgins.............the foolish 5 ..........their oil ran out while they waited for the Groom to appear, and they lost their salvation.
the wise 5 virgins......their oil (holy spirit ) didn't run out

How did Paul obtain the "crown of righteousness"? 2 Tim 4;7,8
Paul said "I have kept the faith".
Did Jesus "keep the faith" for Paul? No, Paul kept the faith.
Paul fought the good fight.


We have "assurance of salvation" when we have faith.
If we "wander from the faith", then, we have no "assurance of salvation".........Salvation is THROUGH FAITH.
If we have faith, we don't need the OSAS doctrine.



My point is:
If I "watch and pray", then, hopefully, I will "keep the faith".
And my oil (holy spirit) will not run out.
And I will escape the trib, Satan, Hell, the second death, the Lake of Fire, etc..

If i don't "watch and pray", i may not be counted worthy to escape the loss, destruction, tears, perdition, loss of salvation, pain-of-the-trib, etc

I'm hoping to be a Pre-tribber. Or , maybe a mid-tribber.
I certainly don't want to be a post-tribber.
But, I have a Glorious Hope that I'll make it into His Paradise and Presence!


***
See how many errors the OSAS doctrine leads us into?

being a Christian and being savd are two different things. so in simple...just because one goes around saying theyre a
Christian does not mean they are saved. therefore they will go through tribulations.

But are not our tribulations now a time of testing our faith? Do not many say, "why does that unsaved person seem to have it all, but me as a Christian seem to be lacking?" But what this napious does not yet understand is the unsaved prosper in wordly goods, those things seen. The saved should prosper in the Word of God....We should seek His Kingdom and then all things will be added....Most saved seek the sightly things and seem to lack in those things because they are not seeking the unseen things first...
I know I went off topic, but was lead to share what I did....

Topic question: If we suffer tribulation now in order to test our faith, to refine us, did we escape it? One would think not. Will Christians escape the 7 year tribulations? Only those who believe in pre-trib, if what we believe to be true....

if you are a child of God then your "tribulations" is to strengthen you to become a mature believer.
not to test faith because you already have it. it's time to strengthen it through discipline. (Hebrews 12:6)

the discipline of a child of God, the serious problems a regular person goes through, or problems someone who thinks they are a child of God may all appear to be the same.

I certainly hope and pray that we are both found worthy to escape. However as I said. Those who are worthy to escape are protected in the wilderness. We know they are on earth because a big hole opens in the earth to save the saints in that place Rev 12. They are certainly not yet in the clouds or in heaven.

Notice the foolish virgins are the ones that go out and buy at midnight perceiving that the bridegroom is on his way. The interpretation is therefore.

The slumbering virgins are the remnant of the seed from Rev 12. The midnight is the revealing of the lawless one at the middle of the seven year period which is described in prophecy as the sign by which we know that the end times are upon us 2 Thess 2. The abomination of desolation occurs here. The oil represents physical provisions of food and clothing. The foolish virgins leave (fall away) and take the mark of the beast in order to buy food and clothing. The wise stay at their post and scrape and manage with whatever they have without taking the mark of the beast.

Not mentioned here are the wise virgins which were NOT sleeping and who were worthy to escape the tribulation period in the manner described in Rev 12.

Five of the virgins wised up in time realising that they were bang in the middle of the tribulation and had better shape up.

The admonition not to sleep is given in
1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

From this we glean that there are times and events in the end times which the Thessalonians commonly understood. Sudden destruction comes upon who? It comes upon THOSE WHO SLEEP. But we are not in darkness are we? Therefore the day WILL NOT be like a thief in the night for us WILL IT?
Why not because we have been watching and discerning the times and seasons.

Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors
So we may not know the exact day and hour as some are inclined to predict. But when we see world events transpire we will know that the end draws nigh ie. is imminent. We also know by contrast that if those world events have not yet occurred that therefore the end is not yet, does not draw nigh, is not imminent.

In other words if the fig tree is NOT putting forth leaves then we know that summer is NOT YET drawing near. So which world events are symbolised by the fig leaves? Well Mark 13 has already explained. Christians betraying one another. The completion of the preaching of the gospel. ie the gospel is stopped from being preached. Christians being persecuted. These events worsen until the Antichrist is revealed and all hell breaks loose. The abomination of desolation standing where it ought not be. False prophets combing the land. Christians being chased from pillary to post. Christians fleeing into the mountains and into the wilderness. As we learn in other places. The sign of the end is the revealing of the man of lawlessnes, the antichrist, the beast and the false prophet and a great falling away (apostasy) from the faith.

We do not see these events yet. Therefore we know that the end is NOT yet, does not YET draw nigh, is NOT imminent. However we must still watch. What do we watch? The times and the seasons. We keep watching for the branch to grow tender and the leaves to sprout. We keep watching to see the deterioration of conditions for Christians. We keep watching to see the deterioration of the fundamental doctrines of the church as it slides into apostasy. We keep watching to see the love of the brethren growing cold. We watch to see the mystery of iniquity working in the world.

We watch for two reasons. First of all so that we do not become unduly worried and fearful while the branch is still not tender or putting forth leaves. Secondly we watch so that we may act urgently and actively when the time is right. Don't expect to be supernaturally snatched away from it all. Be prepared to turn your back on all your possessions and flee into the unknown as it was in the days of Lot. Be prepared for a man or two men (angels) to show up at your house and tell you its time to go. Make sure it is you which is taken by the angel even if your wife is left behind. If you are in the backyard when the angel comes you will not be able to go inside and get your DVD player or your DSLR camera. You will not be able to go and grab your pooch or budgie. Your CD collection will be left behind. Remember Lot's wife who was so caught up in the modern wonderful things of her city. She could not give it up. She looked back to the peril of her soul.

Where will the angel take us? To the wilderness. We will be worried. What will we eat? How will we stay cool? What will we drink? How will we survive? Worried for our lives we may stay behind in the comfort of our homes. If we seek to preserve our lives in this way we will die. If we trust the angel and give up our possessions and positions in this world we will survive.

Has not the scripture taught you these things?
Luke 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; 29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. 31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. 33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. 35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

The angel will take us into the wilderness as if on eagles wings. Rev 12. and there the body will be gathered to await the return of the Lord and wait out the tribulation. Those slumbering Christians left behind will most likely lose their lives in martyrdom although their souls may be spared. Those who go out to buy however and take the mark of the beast will most certainly die. Their bodies and souls destroyed in the lake of fire.

I guess I also see it in this manner...Our faith increases as we hear the word and then do the word...If we are going through tribulations we should turn to the word for help....So, I see it as also increasing our faith in this manner....If we remain faithful to His word, I guess I see it as a test of our faith...
For instance...Dec 24, 2006 I had a wreck in my brand new car...It was not my fault and on top of that it was a hit and run...
This to me is considered a tribulation...But how faithful am I? Am I going to get into the world and act as the world does concerning a situation like this? OR Am I going to have faith in God to handle all things?

I was injured, I did say one swear word, (I don't swear, but I called the hit and run driver the other name for donkey!) You know of my back injury....This wreck could have severely injured me again....

What did I do with this test? I remained still in the Lord and today all things are back to normal...Including me....Praise the Lord!

i didnt know about the accident and I'm glad to see you are fine.

the parable of the ten virgins is not set in the trib.
the parable is for today;;the message is : Don't lose your salvation, before His Return.
The oil is symbolic for the holy spirit (Zech 4;3-6)
It has nothing to do with Rev 12 or the trib.

Perhaps,
People will get saved in the trib, after the rapture.
the saints in Rev 13;7 got saved AFTER the rapture, during the trib.

This is the beauty of these parables. They have provided wonderful and essential instruction to all ages of men from the time of Christ until now. However there is no question that these parables are primarily about the end times. I would have thought that was obvious with the ten virgins because one of the chief characters in the parable is the bridegroom who is clearly Jesus Christ returning.

Now because we do not know when these end time events will commence we must be constantly aware and prepare for them. Now let me ask you if you were an SAS agent you would prepare yourself getting your fitness level up, learning survival skills, how to trap game, how to allude the enemy etc. Why would the SAS agent do this if there was no likelihood of ever using these skills. No the reason that he learns these things is in case he is stranded behind enemy lines. Nevertheless he may go through all of his operations never needing those skills.

Just so with the Christian. Every Christian from the time of Christ until now has prepared himself/herself with these parables in case the events of the end times commence in their lifetime. In doing such preparation they have also prepared themselves for the kingdom. But there will be a generation of Christians who ACTUALLY WILL have to go through the events of the end times. There is a high likelihood that it will be our generation which will have to go through them.

If nobody ends up going through those events then what was the purpose of warning christians about these times?

The parables is Matt 24, and 25 are all prophecies about the end times.

Parable of the Fig tree is specifically about signs of the coming of the Son of Man
Parable of the Ten Virgins is specifically about the coming of the Bridegroom of the Church
Parable of the Talents is about the return of the Lord to reward his servants.
Followed by the account of the said return of the Son of Man in glory to judge the Nations.

Could you please explain to me why it is necessary for us to prepare in the pretrib scenario if God is going to whisk us away out of our lounge chairs?

You were unable to explain how people got saved during the trib if there was no church to preach the gospel to them. You did not attempt to explain what the difference is between a Church saint and a Tribulation Saint. You were unable to explain how the Trib Saint is raptured if he missed the rapture. You were unable to explain how the saved Trib Saint is rewarded. You were unable to demonstrate from any other scripture the existance of two sets of saints.

It is any wonder that your belief lacks conviction as is evidenced by your use of the word "perhaps".

I have no need to use the word "perhaps". I am entirely convinced that Rev 13:7 is evidence that the church must go through the tribulation, which therefore necessitates a post trib rapture.

[quote name='excubitor' date='Jan 8 2007, 10:45 AM' post='98106']
[quote name='dennis mann' post='98103' date='Jan 8 2007, 08:40 PM']

the parable of the ten virgins is not set in the trib.
the parable is for today;;the message is : Don't lose your salvation, before His Return.
The oil is symbolic for the holy spirit (Zech 4;3-6)
It has nothing to do with Rev 12 or the trib.

Perhaps,
People will get saved in the trib, after the rapture.
the saints in Rev 13;7 got saved AFTER the rapture, during the trib.
[/quote]

This is the beauty of these parables. They have provided wonderful and essential instruction to all ages of men from the time of Christ until now. However there is no question that these parables are primarily about the end times. I would have thought that was obvious with the ten virgins because one of the chief characters in the parable is the bridegroom who is clearly Jesus Christ returning.

Now because we do not know when these end time events will commence we must be constantly aware and prepare for them. Now let me ask you if you were an SAS agent you would prepare yourself getting your fitness level up, learning survival skills, how to trap game, how to allude the enemy etc. Why would the SAS agent do this if there was no likelihood of ever using these skills. No the reason that he learns these things is in case he is stranded behind enemy lines. Nevertheless he may go through all of his operations never needing those skills.

Just so with the Christian. Every Christian from the time of Christ until now has prepared himself/herself with these parables in case the events of the end times commence in their lifetime. In doing such preparation they have also prepared themselves for the kingdom. But there will be a generation of Christians who ACTUALLY WILL have to go through the events of the end times. There is a high likelihood that it will be our generation which will have to go through them.

If nobody ends up going through those events then what was the purpose of warning christians about these times?

The parables is Matt 24, and 25 are all prophecies about the end times.

Parable of the Fig tree is specifically about signs of the coming of the Son of Man
Parable of the Ten Virgins is specifically about the coming of the Bridegroom of the Church
Parable of the Talents is about the return of the Lord to reward his servants.
Followed by the account of the said return of the Son of Man in glory to judge the Nations.

Could you please explain to me why it is necessary for us to prepare in the pretrib scenario if God is going to whisk us away out of our lounge chairs?

You were unable to explain how people got saved during the trib if there was no church to preach the gospel to them. You did not attempt to explain what the difference is between a Church saint and a Tribulation Saint. You were unable to explain how the Trib Saint is raptured if he missed the rapture. You were unable to explain how the saved Trib Saint is rewarded. You were unable to demonstrate from any other scripture the existance of two sets of saints.

It is any wonder that your belief lacks conviction as is evidenced by your use of the word "perhaps".

*****************
**********

In the OT, ........where is it plainly said, that the "Coming" of "that Prophet" (the Messiah) will be in 2 stages?
The First Advent, and the Second Coming?
No-where...........It must be deduced from many verses and clues.

The OT says:
the messiah will be "the mighty god, the everlasting father, the ancient of days" (isaiah)
BUT! Daniel told us that the Messiah will be cut off (killed).

How can God be killed?

Plus many other verses , in a similar vein.
Such "problems" can only be explained with a "Coming" in 2 stages. (first and second advents)

My point is:
How do we know that the "first resurrection" is a single one-time moment-event?
Could the "first resurrection" be in 2 stages?
1... the pre-trib rapture (or mid-trib)
2... the resurrection of the people who become saved during the Trib.

Thank you....

[quote name='excubitor' date='Jan 7 2007, 07:28 PM' post='98057']
After recounting the prophecies of End Time events Christ has this to say.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
We may conclude the following from this statement.
[i]Firstly if there were no possibility of us going through these events then there would be no point in warning us.

excubitor: Who is the "ye" in this verse? Is it not the disciples to whom Jesus is directly speaking? Whom did Jesus warn beforehand in verse 25?--His disciples right there with Him! Do you notice the many YOUs in this chapter. To whom is Jesus speaking? He is clearly speaking to His disciples about these things that are going to happen to THEM--not to US! What is the context of this chapter? What did those words mean to Jesus' disciples when they heard them? Why did Jesus say that THEY would experience them if the things were not going to happen for thousands of years? Why did Jesus say that THEY would see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet? How many abominations of desolation are there? Clearly Jesus had one in mind--the one spoken of by Daniel. If Jesus' disciples standing right there in front of Him were to see it, how can any other?

WE are not the YE!

In Christ, Preterist

If we are not the YE then the scripture has failed.
The abomination of desolation was never set up in the disciples time by Titus when he sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. The invasion of the temple was a staggering stuff up. The soldiers never even got in there to take out the gold. They certainly did not therefore have time to abominate the temple as did Antiochus Epiphanes in the manner described by Daniel. You are quite incorrect to suggest that the twelve disciples saw the abomination of desolation. They most certainly DID NOT see it.

So therefore if Christs prophecy did not come true in the disciples day then it must still be a future event. If it is not a future event as you say then the scripture is broken.
I am firmly convinced however that the scripture is not broken and that you rather are completely wrong.

http://www.lexorandi.org/josephus.html
http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html



This event fulfilled the prophecy of Christ
Matt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The disciples then assumed that this event which Christ was describing would happen at the end of the age.
They asked "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Christ did not correct them about the destruction of the temple being at the end of the age, however he went on to answer the question about the sign of his coming and of the end of the world in the passages following.

So if you believe that the abomination of desolation has already occurred then you must believe also that the end of the world has come and gone as well. I am entirely confident that the world has not ended because I am sitting here typing this letter to you and Jesus has not returned yet to judge the world.

Christ is clearly addressing the YE of the disciples. I am a disciple of Christ, aren't you? Therefore these words are addressed to us every bit as much as they were addressed to the twelve.

[quote name='excubitor' date='Jan 8 2007, 11:19 PM' post='98205']
[quote name='Preterist' post='98203' date='Jan 9 2007, 02:52 PM']
[b][quote name='excubitor' post='98057' date='Jan 7 2007, 07:28 PM']
After recounting the prophecies of End Time events Christ has this to say.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man
We may conclude the following from this statement.
Firstly if there were no possibility of us going through these events then there would be no point in warning us.

excubitor: Who is the "ye" in this verse? Is it not the disciples to whom Jesus is directly speaking? Whom did Jesus warn beforehand in verse 25?--His disciples right there with Him! Do you notice the many YOUs in this chapter. To whom is Jesus speaking? He is clearly speaking to His disciples about these things that are going to happen to THEM--not to US! What is the context of this chapter? What did those words mean to Jesus' disciples when they heard them? Why did Jesus say that THEY would experience them if the things were not going to happen for thousands of years? Why did Jesus say that THEY would see the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet? How many abominations of desolation are there? Clearly Jesus had one in mind--the one spoken of by Daniel. If Jesus' disciples standing right there in front of Him were to see it, how can any other?

WE are not the YE!

In Christ, Preterist
[/quote]
[/quote]


If we are not the YE then the scripture has failed.
The abomination of desolation was never set up in the disciples time by Titus when he sacked Jerusalem and destroyed the temple. The invasion of the temple was a staggering stuff up. The soldiers never even got in there to take out the gold. They certainly did not therefore have time to abominate the temple as did Antiochus Epiphanes in the manner described by Daniel. You are quite incorrect to suggest that the twelve disciples saw the abomination of desolation. They most certainly DID NOT see it.

So therefore if Christs prophecy did not come true in the disciples day then it must still be a future event. If it is not a future event as you say then the scripture is broken.
I am firmly convinced however that the scripture is not broken and that you rather are completely wrong.

http://www.lexorandi.org/josephus.html
http://www.templemount.org/destruct2.html

[quote]
During the long siege a terrible famine raged in the city and the bodies of the inhabitants were literally stacked like cordwood in the streets. Mothers ate their children to preserve their own strength. The toll of Jewish suffering was horrible but they would not surrender the city. Again and again they attempted to trick the Romans through guile and perfidy. When at last the walls were breached Titus tried to preserve the Temple by giving orders to his soldiers not to destroy or burn it. But the anger of the soldiers against the Jews was so intense that, maddened by the resistance they encountered, they disobeyed the order of their general and set fire to the Temple. There were great quantities of gold and silver there which had been placed in the Temple for safekeeping. This melted and ran down between the rocks and into the cracks of the stones. When the soldiers captured the Temple area, in their greed to obtain this gold and silver they took long bars and pried apart the massive stones. Thus, quite literally, not one stone was left standing upon another. The Temple itself was totally destroyed, though the wall supporting the area upon which the Temple was built was left partially intact and a portion of it remains to this day, called the Western Wall[/quote]

This event fulfilled the prophecy of Christ
Matt 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

The disciples then assumed that this event which Christ was describing would happen at the end of the age.
They asked "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
Christ did not correct them about the destruction of the temple being at the end of the age, however he went on to answer the question about the sign of his coming and of the end of the world in the passages following.

So if you believe that the abomination of desolation has already occurred then you must believe also that the end of the world has come and gone as well. I am entirely confident that the world has not ended because I am sitting here typing this letter to you and Jesus has not returned yet to judge the world.

Christ is clearly addressing the YE of the disciples. I am a disciple of Christ, aren't you? Therefore these words are addressed to us every bit as much as they were addressed to the twelve.[/b]

No I do not believe that the end of the world has come. Why do you shift from the end of the age to the end of the world. The verse clearly says the end of the age. It is the end of the age describes in Hebrews 8--the Old Covenant which was even at that time becoming absolete and ready to vanish away!

Again, the words are clear. You have a preconceived idea of what the abomination of desolation was, cannot see how it could have occurred in that sense, so you, therefore, misunderstand simple words such as "When YOU (MY disciples standing right here in front of Me). I prefer to take simple words such as these--simple words we understand in our everyday lives at their face value and in their common, usual, normal sense and make my understanding of the abomination of desolation fit into it.

To understand the abomination of desolation, look at Luke's parallel account (21:20)

But when YOU (My disciples right here with Me NOW) see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know
that its desolation is near.

These armies marched toward Jerusalem with their idolatrous emblems--an abomination to the Jews and a profaning of the law. When believers (these are the readers who would have understood Jesus' words to His disciples!) saw this, they fled to the mountains. No believer should be without a copy of Josephus in order to get a clear picture of this escape from the city and the horrors that ensued!

Can you answer honestly this question? If you had never read the Bible before and knew nothing of prophecy and someone told you to read Matthew 24, to whom would you think Jesus meant for those things to happen? I encourage you to read it again, with an unbiased mind, to perhaps see why you cannot let those simple words say what they say. Jesus is clearly telling His disciples there with Him about things that were to happen to THEM not to US! Yes, I am a disciple of Christ, but I was NOT there with Him when He spoke those words to THEM about THEM. I am not part of the YOU to whom those things were to happen. When you address people in your everyday life and say "You," do you mean someone else? If we stumble over the simply things of the word, how will we ever understand the difficult?

Preterist

It was not about Jerusalem by this time in scripture. Did you miss the scriptures and the teachings of Christ that shifted the temple to being the body?
I did read mathew 24 without knowing anything about what others were teaching and right off the bat I knew that Christ was speaking to all who believe in Him to the end. So if you can throw out the preterist con. You to might be able to read the bible for what it says and not what you are trying to twist it to mean.

[quote name='Godsloft.com' date='Jan 9 2007, 09:18 PM' post='98338']
[quote name='Preterist' post='98211' date='Jan 8 2007, 09:43 PM']

It was not about Jerusalem by this time in scripture. Did you miss the scriptures and the teachings of Christ that shifted the temple to being the body?
I did read mathew 24 without knowing anything about what others were teaching and right off the bat I knew that Christ was speaking to all who believe in Him to the end. So if you can throw out the preterist con. You to might be able to read the bible for what it says and not what you are trying to twist it to mean.
[/quote]

Twisting it to mean?

JESUS IS TALKING TO HIS DISCIPLES--HIS DISCIPLES WHO QUESTIONED HIM--HIS DISCIPLES STANDING RIGHT THERE WITH HIM. Jesus said to THEM--

Take heed that no one deceives YOU.
YOU will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
See that YOU are not troubled.
THEN they will deliver YOU up to tribulation
and kill YOU,
and YOU will be hated by all nations.
When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.
Pray that YOUR flight may not be in winter.
THEN if anyone says to YOU.
[YOU] do not believe it.
I have told YOU beforehand.
Therefore if they say to YOU.
[YOU] do not go out.
[YOU] do not believe it.
[YOU] learn this parable of the fig tree.
YOU know that summer is NEAR.
So YOU also, when YOU see ALL these things, know that it is NEAR--at the doors!
Assuredly, I say to YOU.
[YOU] watch therefore.
YOU do not know the HOUR your Lord is coming.
But [YOU] know this . . . .
THEREFORE YOU also be ready.
The Son of Man is coming at an hour YOU do not expect.

How am I twisting the Scriptures? This is simple language with a simple meaning. I am taking it just as Jesus said it and meant it. Plain and simple! You are twisting the YOUs to mean something other than what they clearly mean. When the Scriptures say the coming of the Lord is NEAR (James 5:8) to the people of James' day, and I take it that way, how is that twisting the Scriptures? Do the lives of those disciples to whom Jesus was speaking, those disciples with whom He lived and journeyed, those disciples who were to be killed for His name's sake mean anything to you? WHAT DID JESUS' WORDS MEAN TO THEM? That is important. WHY DID HE ADDRESS THEM AS "YOU" when the words He spoke had no bearing upon THEM but had significance to another generation of YOUs thousands of years hence? That is twisitng the Scriptures! WHAT IS THE AUDIENCE RELEVANCY????

It most certainly WAS about Jerusalem. Jerusalem and the temple and their destruction in AD 70 is the scope of Matthew 24!

Preterist

Preterist, could you please take the trouble to sort out your quote tags. People will mix up my words with yours and I certainly don't want that.
Please provide biblical evidence that "end of the age" is anything different than "end of the world". I can't even find the expression "end of the age" in my Bible which is the KJV.

Too right I have a preconceived notion of what the abomination of desolation is. A notion which is based upon the scripture. It's something that abominates causes something to be desolate.
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Notice it stands in the holy place. Neither Titus nor Vespasian nor anything else stood in the holy place at 70 AD because the Temple including the holy place burnt down before they could even set foot in it (as I took great pains to explain in a recent post.

Jesus says go and read Daniel the prophet. OK come on preterist lets go and read Daniel the prophet.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant [6] with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate
No covenant was confirmed in 70AD. Its true that the sacrifice and the oblation was stopped but not as a consequence of the covenant. Nothing was spread over anything to cause the abomination.

Dan 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
So this describes a deliberate placing of an abominable thing in the place that the daily sacrifice was previously.

Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand. 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination [5] that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
The prophecy could therefore not be fulfilled in 70 AD because that was NOT the time of the end. There have been almost 2000 years since that day. Also 1290 days after the abomination the abomination should cease. Yet we have waited more than that many years and still Jerusalem is the trouble spot of the world, there is no temple there and the dome on the rock abominates the site and the Holy city. This period is also congruant with the 42 months of Rev 11 and Rev 13.

You mentioned Luke 21 and the armies encamped around Jerusalem. Sure I can see that this occurred and that Christ knew that it would happen and that observant disciples in 70AD who heeded the warning were spared from the destruction of Jerusalem. However this just points to the cleverness of Christs answer where he answered both questions about the destruction of the temple and the end of the age in one discourse. It also shows the duality of prophecy. 70 AD was a forerunner of a greater end time event.

Come on Preterist you're trying to hard.
What incredible duplicity demanding plain and simple readings of "YOU" on the one hand and then on the other demanding that the descriptions of Christ coming in power and glory are figurative and allegorical of Vespasian and Titus sacking Jerusalem. Surely you are joking.

If Jesus wanted to address end time disciples and warn them of end time events in your particular "YOU" fashion, how would he do it? Make a second coming to talk to them proclaiming "YOU, YOU and YOU" yes and I also mean "YOU".
What's wrong with addressing them in the way he did through the disciples. As I said before he was addressing the disciples which include you and me and the others here in this forum.

I suggest you go through every chapter of Matthew and strike out all instructions to the disciples which use the word "YOU" because they don't apply to YOU. They only apply to the disciples.

Is that what you really believe?

If you are not a disciple of Christ. What are you?
Jesus Christ didn't write the account. Matthew an apostle wrote the account for you long after Christ ascended into heaven. Long after the day of Pentecost long after the Holy Spirit of Christ had entered him. They didn't need the account written down, but you did.
The only thing it had to do with Jerusalem was where Christ told them "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
other than that it had nothing to do with Jerusalem. The destruction of Jerusalem could have happened at any time for all they cared, after they received the Spirit of God.
This following part of the same account has not happened yet. If you read it to understand exactly what it says you will realize That all of the tribes of the earth have not mourned because they saw the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

matthew 24
27 For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
28 For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.
29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

QUOTE(excubitor @ Jan 10 2007, 12:46 AM) [snapback]98368[/snapback]

Come on Preterist you're trying to hard.
What incredible duplicity demanding plain and simple readings of "YOU" on the one hand and then on the other demanding that the descriptions of Christ coming in power and glory are figurative and allegorical of Vespasian and Titus sacking Jerusalem. Surely you are joking.

If Jesus wanted to address end time disciples and warn them of end time events in your particular "YOU" fashion, how would he do it? Make a second coming to talk to them proclaiming "YOU, YOU and YOU" yes and I also mean "YOU".
What's wrong with addressing them in the way he did through the disciples. As I said before he was addressing the disciples which include you and me and the others here in this forum.

I suggest you go through every chapter of Matthew and strike out all instructions to the disciples which use the word "YOU" because they don't apply to YOU. They only apply to the disciples.

Is that what you really believe?

Come on, excubitor! Can you not see the difference between general teachings which apply to all believers and statements that give a fulfillment of a specific event at a specific time?

Let's go through "every chapter of Matthew." Let's begin with chapter 4 and Jesus' temptation. He says TO Satan, "Away with YOU, Satan!" This is a direct statement to a specific individual about a specific action. Then Jesus goes from the specific to the general when He quotes Scripture--"YOU shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve." This part applies to everyone who will worship God! One YOU is specific; one YOU is general. The CONTEXT defines it!

How about Matthew 5-7 where Jesus begins teaching His disciples with Him general principles that apply to all who will follow Him. He is first of all telling THEM. He is NOT predicting any specific event that is to happen. He ends His discourse with "Therefore, WHOEVER hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, . . . ." Clearly, WE are part of the whoever! There is no prediction of future events that were to happen to THEM specifically.

What about when Jesus comes down from the mountain and says TO a leper, "See that YOU tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them" (8:4)? This is directed at a specific individual and involves specific events and actions concerning THAT specific person. Taking the challenge you gave to me, do you take the YOU here as something WE are to do. Are WE to show ourselves to the priest and "offer the gift that Moses commanded?" If YOU want to make the YOUs of Matthew 24 apply to all believers of all time, should not all the YOUs of Matthew be taken that way as well?

Again, in Matthew 9:6b--Jesus says TO the paralytic, "[YOU] arise, take up YOUR bed and go to YOUR house." Here is another YOU. Again, taking you challenge to me concerning the YOUs of Matthew 24, are WE to take up OUR beds and go to OUR houses? Of course not! This is directed at a specific individual about a specific action in a specific time!

How about the two blind men who were healed (Matthew 9). Jesus asked THEM specifically, "Do YOU believe that I am able to do this?" THEY said, "Yes, Lord." Jesus then said to THEM, "According to YOUR faith let it be to YOU." This is directed at THEM specifically and THEY are given instructions from Jesus. According to your challenge to me, is the YOU about US? Are WE directly in mind here? Of course not!

Consider the sending out of the Twelve. Jesus is speaking directly to THEM about things THEY are to do. "[YOU] do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and [YOU] do not enter a city of the Samaritans . . . And as YOU go, preach, saying 'the kingdom of heaven is AT HAND. [YOU] heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons . . . .Now whatever city or town YOU enter, inquire in it who is worthy, and stay there till YOU go out . . . .And whoever will not receive YOU, . . . when YOU depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from YOUR feet. Assuredly, I say to YOU . . . ." "I send YOU out . . . .They will deliver YOU up . . . and scourge YOU . . . .YOU will be brought before governors . . . .But when they deliver YOU up, do not worry about how or what YOU should speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in YOU. . . .YOU will be hated by all men . . . .But when they persecute YOU . . . . Assuredly, I say to YOU, YOU will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES!" This is the same language of Matthew 24. These words of Jesus are directed at specific people during a specific time about specific events that are to occur to THOSE specific people. WE are not participants in these events!

In Matthew 11 Jesus sends disciples to John the Baptist with this message: [YOU] go and tell John the things which YOU hear and see." Are we told to go tell John? No! They were. Did WE hear and see those things? No!

I could go on, but the point is this--Some YOUs are general statements directed at all believers throughout time (although still first addressed to those with Jesus). Other statements by Jesus where He says YOU, He is describing specific things that are to happen to those specific YOUs! Surely, YOU can see the difference!
Because I take the YOUs of Matthew 24 to be those disciples right there with Jesus and to be those who were to personally experience the things predicted by Jesus in THEIR lifetimes, you make the wrong and illogical assumption that I should take ALL YOUs of Matthew the same way. That, as I have pointed out, is no more logical than my telling you that because you take the YOUs of Matthew 24 and apply them to all believers, that YOU should go through all of Matthew and make ALL YOUs apply to ALL believers. CONTEXT is the key.

Let me give you an example. I have five children. If I say directly to just ONE of them--"When YOU see the man with a red tie, white shirt, and pin-striped suit enter the store tomorrow, [YOU] give HIM this sealed envelope." Am I telling ALL my children to do this? Am I suggesting that some other day the same man is going to enter the building and that I have sealed envelopes for each of my children to give him? No! I told one of my children at a specific time about something that was to directly and exclusively involve HIM at a specific point in time. Now if I say to my children: "Always say 'thank you' to customers before they leave the store." This is a general principles that I want ALL of my children to do. Do you see the difference?

In Matthew 24, Jesus was addressing THOSE disciples about specific things that were to happen to THEM in THEIR lifetimes. Jesus predicted SPECIFC wars and rumors of wars. Jesus predicted a SPECIFIC time frame when THEY would be killed and hated. Jesus predicted a SPECIFIC time when THEY would see the abomination of desolation. Jesus warned THOSE specific disciples beforehand about things that were to happen directly to THEM. Are there not many wars today and rumors of wars. Of course! But THEY are not THOSE wars. Are not disciples killed and hated today? Of course! But THEY are not THOSE disciples who were to be killed by specific people during a specific time in history. WE are NOT among those disciples!

Preterist

Of course not! but this is an outrageous manipulation on your part suggesting it.





You are mistaken about this, because the apostles in this time frame were not delivered up or taken before governors and scourged. They had not been given the Spirit of God yet. Later on after the Lords crucification and after the day of Pentecost, this came true for them, but it is also for the end time saints especially the Lords two prophets.



You are mistaken here also for the reasons that I mentioned before. Matthew 24 was not written with verses and chapters. The destruction of Israel is part of the previous message before the apostles ask him about His return Which He went on to describe to the End time Saints. Most of the apostles (if any) were not even there to see the destruction of Israel or to know that it had happened.

From foxes Book of martyrs
IV. Matthew
Whose occupation was that of a toll-gatherer, was born at Nazareth. He wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which was afterwards translated into Greek by James the Less. The scene of his labors was Parthia, and Ethiopia, in which latter country he suffered martyrdom, being slain with a halberd in the city of Nadabah, A.D. 60.

QUOTE

Now about that end of the age thing you mentioned where you said it is the end of the age and not the end of world.

Well Matthew was the only one who used the phrase and here are the other scriptures from the same author Matthew to shed some light on it for you.

Matthew 13
39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.

Matthew 13
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

Matthew 13
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

[quote name='Godsloft.com' date='Jan 11 2007, 05:05 AM' post='98550']
[quote]If YOU want to make the YOUs of Matthew 24 apply to all believers of all time, should not all the YOUs of Matthew be taken that way as well?[/quote]

Of course not! but this is an outrageous manipulation on your part suggesting it.

If you will read the post from excubitor, you will see that I was NOT the one to make such "an outrageous manipulation." I made my statement because excubitor asked whether I took ALL YOUs as referring only to the disciples of His day! Of course, that's as ridiculous as saying that ALL YOUs have to do with US exclusively. Again, I was NOT the one suggesting such "outrageous manipulation." Excubitor was.

CONTEXT, Godsloft. Jesus' disciples asked their questions because of what Jesus told the Jews in Matthew 23. When Jesus asked, "Do YOU not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left HERE upon another, that shall not be thrown down." There is no indication that the subject has changed when His disciples ask Him their questions! One of them was about the end of the AGE--aion NOT kosmos.

Preterist

The Apostles were with Christ in public when Christ told them about the destruction of the temple and then they came to Him privately later on when they asked him about His second coming and the end of the age. It was a different discussion, read.

1 Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

It has nothing to do with "AGE--aion and kosmos.
First of all Matthew wrote His Gospel in Hebrew not Greek.
Second of all he used a different terminology about the end of the world calling it the end of the age. The other scriptures where he used the same terminology explains what he was talking about.

40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Christ has not returned and resurrected the dead and taken up His great power and reigned yet as described in Mathew's scriptures.
The tribes of the earth have not mourned when they saw Christ come riding on the clouds of heaven with great power and glory and the Lord has not sent out His Holy messengers to gather out of His kingdom all things that offend and those who practice lawlessness.

29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

QUOTE(Godsloft.com @ Jan 11 2007, 03:06 PM) [snapback]98596[/snapback]

[/b]

Again, this is judgment language. Jesus' disciples understood that. Notice that with this company were also "those who pierced Him" (Rev. 1:7). When were "those who pierced Him" alive?

Preterist

i thought those that pierced Him were with us, even now...

QUOTE(signet @ Jan 12 2007, 11:13 PM) [snapback]98825[/snapback]

i thought those that pierced Him were with us, even now...

Signet: I don't know any nearly 2,000-year-old people. Do you?

Those that pierced Him were THOSE that pierced Him! They were particular people who lived at THAT particular time. THEY saw Him "coming on the clouds of heaven" ca. AD 70 when God brought judgment against those "guilty of ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23)!

It what way are you saying THOSE people are "with us, even now?"

Preterist


[quote name='excubitor' date='Jan 8 2007, 11:19 PM' post='98205']

If we are not the YE then the scripture has failed.

If Jesus' disciples right there with Him to whom and about whom He was speaking are not the YE, then Jesus LIED! When YOU (THOSE disciples right there with Jesus) see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet . . . ." Because you cannot see this fulfillment, do you then feel justified in changes Jesus' plain words? He said it that THEY would see it--so THEY did!

Preterist

The Scripture of the witnesses of Christ has not failed and once again using that type of innuendo to manipulate the direction of its teaching is not from God but is earthly sensual demonic.
Because scripture does not fit preconceived views only means that the preconceived views are wrong. And yes the children of they that pierced Him are still here, the devil and satan are still walking around ready willing and able to crucify anyone who comes wielding the Power of God and speaking the truth.


Your answers to my previous post is at best an attempt to bypass the truth of the matter. You know perfectly well that there would be written history of the return of Christ. The clear and undeniable writings that when Christ returns the second time there will be no devil left in existence to pervert and twist anything. Not to mention the fact that Christ's kingdom will be set up on mount Zion where He and His Priests who He redeemed from earth will dwell during the thousand year reign.

The modern contemporaries are willing to Lie and sell the Lords sheep to slaughter for gain. Just like you are doing here. I posted this truth for you to read out of foxes book of myrters written in 1550 to 1554. John Foxe was closser to the source than all of the Johnny come latelies that we have today.
I showed you the other scriptures where the same word was used and they are teaching the end of the world. The "end of the age" is indeed the end of the generation of evildoers.

Matthew 13
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.



IV. Matthew
Whose occupation was that of a toll-gatherer, was born at Nazareth. He wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which was afterwards translated into Greek by James the Less. The scene of his labors was Parthia, and Ethiopia, in which latter country he suffered martyrdom, being slain with a halberd in the city of Nadabah, A.D. 60.

[quote name='Godsloft.com' date='Jan 13 2007, 08:02 PM' post='98921']
[quote][quote]It has nothing to do with "AGE--aion and kosmos.
First of all Matthew wrote His Gospel in Hebrew not Greek.

The modern contemporaries are willing to Lie and sell the Lords sheep to slaughter for gain. Just like you are doing here. I posted this truth for you to read out of foxes book of myrters written in 1550 to 1554. John Foxe was closser to the source than all of the Johnny come latelies that we have today.
I showed you the other scriptures where the same word was used and they are teaching the end of the world. The "end of the age" is indeed the end of the generation of evildoers.

Matthew 13
40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at [b]the end of this age.
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,
42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

IV. Matthew
Whose occupation was that of a toll-gatherer, was born at Nazareth. He wrote his gospel in Hebrew, which was afterwards translated into Greek by James the Less. The scene of his labors was Parthia, and Ethiopia, in which latter country he suffered martyrdom, being slain with a halberd in the city of Nadabah, A.D. 60.
[/quote][/b]

1. Was the NT Written in Greek?
A rebuttal to those blasphemers who try to overthrow the doctrine of Christ and of God with the idea that the NT was written in Hebrew....
Was the New Testament Written in Greek?
By Dr. C. Matthew McMahon

In the realm of scholarly invention, there exists a minority report that the New Testament documents were written first in Hebrew then later translated into Greek. You might ask why this is an important question to ask at the outset. It is quite important due to certain accusations that “unstable people” twist in order to discredit the New Testament documents and certain theological ideologies surrounding key Christian doctrines concerning Christ and God. Their intent is to parade their own agenda in attempting to reinterpret the New Testament in light of Hebrew idioms and syntax, rather than the Greek language. This holds huge complications for the Greek language because, simply stated, Greek is not Hebrew, and Greeks did not think like Hebrews. Within this debate, then, the very character of God is placed on the line. Not only this, but the wisdom of God is called into question. God used Greek to transmit the message of the Gospel, and those who oppose this are calling into question the wisdom and providence of God as to the use of His means for the end of the salvation of souls.

The arguments surrounding this theological reformulation raise questions as to whether the Apostles really thought Jesus was God, or that the Trinity is an Old Testament reality as well as a New Testament one. If the New Testament Scriptures were written in Hebrew, and then at a later time scribes copied the New Testament into Greek, then, according to these people, words and phrases used in Greek do not match the Hebrew ideas and were “glossed” in order to make sense. A gloss is an addition, correction, or replacement made by a scribe when translating or copying the New Testament documents. This would allow for a reinterpretation of the text, and the inerrant and infallible nature of the text would be called into serious question. For instance, they say that no Jew would understand God as coming in the flesh because the idea of the “Trinity” is not a Jewish concept at all, and the Old Testament Jew would never have thought of God in this manner. So New Testament scribes reinterpreted the New Testament documents in a manner that is really not true to the Biblical data. This leaves room for doubt as to whether the Messiah would really be God. It leaves doubt as to whether the Trinity is really a Jewish idea or a “gloss.” These are serious implications indeed.

Through the history of the church the question as to whether Greek was the original language of the New Testament autographs was not called into question. At times, Roman Catholic theologians attempted to “inspire” the Vulgate written by Jerome for their own purposes (which was written in Latin), and raised it above the Hebrew and Greek of the Old and New Testaments, yet, scholars and theologians through the history of the church had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the original Hebrew Scriptures to be written in Hebrew and Aramaic, and the New Testament to be written in Greek. The burden of proof completely lies within the boundaries of those who deny the claim. As it stands to date, no one has adequately presented a case, or proof for the case, that the entire New Testament was first written in Hebrew and then later translated into Greek. This theory is unrecognized in the modern world.[1] Only those who dare to overthrow core orthodox doctrines adhere to this view. This would include the cults, and factions of those cults in modern day Christianity.

Do we have any reason to say the New Testament documents were written in Hebrew? A simple answer to this statement is “no.” All of the current archeological evidence, MSS (manuscript) data, and social background of the New Testament era prove otherwise. As a matter of fact, prior to the New Testament era of Christ and the Apostles, there was already a massive undertaking to Hellenize the Jewish culture due to Roman influence. This would already have existed at the time of Christ and the Apostles; a time that Paul calls, “fullness of the time” (Galatians 4:4). This “fullness” demonstrates historically that God’s plan to bring forth the Christ (a Greek term meaning the “anointed” of God) was positioned in the midst of a Hellenized Jewish Palestinian setting which sat within the boundaries of a Roman culture which was predominately Greek speaking.

In looking at the history of Biblical MSS and textual criticism, there is no reason for us to believe that the entire New Testament was written in Hebrew then retranslated into Greek. Evidence to this is completely lacking. Evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. Also, there is no reason for us to believe that the documents themselves have been corrupted from their original intent and meaning although we do not have the original autographs. Turretin states that, “there is no truth in the assertion that the Hebrew edition of the Old Testament and the Greek edition of the New Testament are said to be mutilated…”[2] The reason orthodoxy maintains this position is from the overwhelming amount of evidence that the transmission of the text(in both the Old Testament and New Testament) has been done so in a manner in which the copies have been preserved by a meticulous method. We can be sure that what we have today in the Biblical record is accurate to the text, meaning and message of the original documents. The Westminster Confession states this succinctly, “The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which, at the time of the writing of it, was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and, by his singular care and providence, kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentical.”[3]

In proving the documentation of the New Testament MSS as having been written in Greek, one simply has to look at the tremendous amount of textual evidence for this. We do not have in our possession one original MSS from either the Hebrew/Aramaic Old Testament or Greek New Testament. The original MSS from both are lost or destroyed by age, or other means. We do, though, have the largest collection of MSS copied for both the Old Testament and New Testament in the world, over and against other copies of any other literature ever written. In thinking this through, we must ask the basic question, “what copies do we have of the Old Testament and the New Testament?” This is not hard to answer. With the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls alone, one of the most important finds for textual critics concerning Hebrew MSS of the Old Testament, we have almost the entire Hebrew Scriptures preserved in that one archeological find (95% of the text is present). With other MSS previously attained we have the entire Hebrew Old Testament exemplified throughout the combinations in relation to the Masoretic Text, the Nash Papyrus, the Cairo Codex, the Codex of the prophets of Leningrad, the Babylonicus Petropalintanus, the Erfurt Codecies, the Aleppo Codex, the British Mudem Codex, the Reuchlin Codex of the Prophets, the Samaritan Texts, and the Targums (which are paraphrases of the Old Testament). Geisler and Nix comment, “The first collection of Hebrew manuscripts, made by Benjamin Kennicott (a.d. 1776-1780) and published by Oxford, listed 615 manuscripts of the Old Testament. Later Giovanni de Rossi (1784-1788) published a list of 731 manuscripts. The main manuscript discoveries in modern times are those of the Cairo Geniza (c. 1890ff.) and the Dead Sea Scrolls (1947ff). In the Cairo synagogue attic storeroom alone were discovered some 200,000 manuscripts and fragments, some 10,000 of which are biblical. According to J. T. Milik, fragments of about 600 manuscripts are known from the Dead Sea Scrolls, not all biblical. Moshe Goshen-Gottstein estimates that the total number of Old Testament Hebrew manuscript fragments throughout the world runs into the tens of thousands.”[4] In this manner (the same manner in which we arrive at faithful copies of the New Testament in Greek) the Hebrew text shows itself in the copies we have of it as faithful and accurate. Geisler and Nix summarize the Hebrew MMS and findings nicely when they say, “The thousands of Hebrew manuscripts, with their confirmation by the LXX and the Samaritan Pentateuch, and the numerous other crosschecks from outside and inside the text provide overwhelming support for the reliability of the Old Testament text. Hence, it is appropriate to conclude with Sir Frederic Kenyon's statement, "The Christian can take the whole Bible in his hand and say without fear or hesitation that he holds in it the true word of God, handed down without essential loss from generation to generation throughout the centuries.” But what do we now say about the New Testament MSS in Greek? Are they as reliable?
We should first turn our attention to the historical setting of the time of writing and compiling New Testament documents. To do this we need to traverse back before that time and set the stage for the New Testament era. Stambaugh and Balch state, “When "Jesus was born in Be