Have you ever read an opinion so many times that you just kinda go along assuming it is correct?



I see a lot of repeated assumptions that the "elect" can only be the Church - Gentiles or MAINLY Gentiles - that this phrase can only refer to the Church. It does apply to the Church at times, but not ALL times.



When you consider that the tribulation is JACOB'S Trouble, that it begins with the signing of the "covenant of death", according to Isaiah 28 (and leading to a decree from God for destruction of the whole earth), everything centers around ISRAEL, does the word "elect" not also apply to the 144,000 sealed of Israel? The Jews who listen to God?



Anyways, since a lot of assumptions are based on that one tiny word, I thought it'd be a good one to study. In a way, that word is the jumping off point of a whole big ole theory about the timing of the rapture being AFTER the Second Coming.



If NO assumption is made about who this word pertains to, the whole picture starts to change.

If NO assumption is made about the parties Jesus was addressing in Matthew 24, the whole picture starts to change.

If Old Testament prophecies are studied and included instead of EXcluded, the whole picture starts to change.



The Old Testament prophet Isaiah called God's chosen people "the elect". We know that we are grafted in - the Church is also the "elect", but that title is not to EXCLUDE the Jews.

Jesus is also spoken of as "elect".



Here is what Isaiah wrote:



Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.



Isaiah 45:4

For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.



Isaiah 65:9

And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.



Isaiah 65:22

They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.



What is the GOAL and PURPOSE of the Seventy Sevens as spoken of by the prophet Daniel in chapter 9 verse 24?



24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.



So the purposes are fivefold and they ALL are directed towards "thy people" - the Jews:

1. to finish transgression

2. to make an end of sins

3. to make reconciliation for iniquity

4. to bring in an age of righteousness

5. to seal up vision and prophecy



All of those things refer to ISRAEL. The purpose is not geared towards Gentiles, though the persecutors of Jews certainly have God's wrath directed AT them.



So when we see Jesus speaking to the Jews, of events foretold in the OT that pertain TO the Jews, events CONCERNING JEWS that must occur before the Second Coming of Christ, why do so many say "That's us!"

Is it?



Who is this referring to:



Matthew 24:29 But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:



30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.



31 And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Leaving off the debate over the gathering of the heavens (which is really interesting too!), this final gathering AFTER the Second Coming of Christ, if the elect spoken of were the Jews, is a fulfillment of prophecy!

The final restoration of Israel was spoken of by the OT prophets as not occuring til AFTER the Second Coming.

We all know that the Jews, despite the existence of Israel as a nation, are still dispersed, and many worldwide have no plans to relocate to Israel. The dispersion continues.



This time, that comes AFTER the tribulation, appears to include ALL of the OT saints, as it is mentioned repeatedly "from one end of the heavens to the other". Even Daniel was was told that he would stand at the end of days:



Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be; for thou shalt rest, and shalt stand in thy lot, at the end of the days.



In Isaiah 27 the words of Jesus are prophesied:



12 And it shall come to pass in that day, that Jehovah will beat off his fruit from the flood of the River unto the brook of Egypt; and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great trumpet shall be blown; and they shall come that were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and they that were outcasts in the land of Egypt; and they shall worship Jehovah in the holy mountain at Jerusalem.



I don't even know how it got started, the generally held opinion that there is only ONE elect and that Jesus couldn't POSSIBLY be addressing and referring to the Jews who are to be saved, God's chosen holy ones. I will follow this post with one that shows the scriptures pertaining Matthew 24 and final gathering of the "elect".

.............................................benny

Mark 13:25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken.

26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.



Here's some further background of Matthew 24 and also Mark 13:27 that is found in the Old Testament, beginning WAY back in Deuteronomy. All of Chapter 29 and 30 are pretty interesting, but I am only copying in a portion of 30 that relates to what is spoken in Mark.



These scriptures speak of the final regathering of the Jews, which has NOT yet occurred (there are Jews all over the place) prior to the commencement of the Millenial Kingdom:



Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither Jehovah thy God hath driven thee, 2 and shalt return unto Jehovah thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thy heart, and with all thy soul;

3 that then Jehovah thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the peoples, whither Jehovah thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine outcasts be in the uttermost parts of heaven, from thence will Jehovah thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee



See that this also refers to the Jews being gathered in Heaven and on Earth, no matter where they may be. And then the end results:



5 and Jehovah thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.



Now, at what time in history were ALL faithful Jews in HEAVEN and on earth, to be regathered by God (or to be more precise, God's angels)? Only at the end will this happen - before the Millenial Kingdom. So this is an unfulfilled prophecy until that time.



Isaiah 11:11 to 12:6 - (I'm only going to copy in Isaiah 11:11+, but there IS more)

11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, that shall remain, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.



12 And he will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.



13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that vex Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.



14 And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; together shall they despoil the children of the east: they shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them.



15 And Jehovah will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his scorching wind will he wave his hand over the River, and will smite it into seven streams, and cause men to march over dryshod.



16 And there shall be a highway for the remnant of his people, that shall remain, from Assyria; like as there was for Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.



------------

Isaiah 43:5 Fear not; for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;



6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth;



7 every one that is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yea, whom I have made.



And in Jeremiah, the regathering for the Millenial Kingdom:



5 Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and he shall reign as king and deal wisely, and shall execute justice and righteousness in the land.



6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely; and this is his name whereby he shall be called: Jehovah our righteousness.



7 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that they shall no more say, As Jehovah liveth, who brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;



8 but, As Jehovah liveth, who brought up and who led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all the countries whither I had driven them. And they shall dwell in their own land.

---

31:7 For thus saith Jehovah, Sing with gladness for Jacob, and shout for the chief of the nations: publish ye, praise ye, and say, O Jehovah, save thy people, the remnant of Israel.



8 Behold, I will bring them from the north country, and gather them from the uttermost parts of the earth, and with them the blind and the lame, the woman with child and her that travaileth with child together: a great company shall they return hither.



9 They shall come with weeping; and with supplications will I lead them: I will cause them to walk by rivers of waters, in a straight way wherein they shall not stumble; for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my first-born.



10 Hear the word of Jehovah, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off; and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as shepherd doth his flock.



11 For Jehovah hath ransomed Jacob, and redeemed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he.



12 And they shall come and sing in the height of Zion, and shall flow unto the goodness of Jehovah, to the grain, and to the new wine, and to the oil, and to the young of the flock and of the herd: and their soul shall be as a watered garden; and they shall not sorrow any more at all.



13 Then shall the virgin rejoice in the dance, and the young men and the old together; for I will turn their mourning into joy, and will comfort them, and make them rejoice from their sorrow.



14 And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith Jehovah.



--------------



And then Ezekiel (does it seem like the Old Testament prophets were REALLY trying to drive hom a point about the final regathering of Israel?)



11:16 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Whereas I have removed them far off among the nations, and whereas I have scattered them among the countries, yet will I be to them a sanctuary for a little while in the countries where they are come.



17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I will gather you from the peoples, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.



18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.



19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh;



20 that they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.



21 But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will bring their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord Jehovah.



And more from Ezekiel in Chapter 20:40-42



40 For in my holy mountain, in the mountain of the height of Israel, saith the Lord Jehovah, there shall all the house of Israel, all of them, serve me in the land: there will I accept them, and there will I require your offerings, and the first-fruits of your oblations, with all your holy things.



41 As a sweet savor will I accept you, when I bring you out from the peoples, and gather you out of the countries wherein ye have been scattered; and I will be sanctified in you in the sight of the nations.



42 And ye shall know that I am Jehovah, when I shall bring you into the land of Israel, into the country which I sware to give unto your fathers.



And there is more if anyone cares to follow it along. I think some of these passages get overlooked because it is assumed that Israel's rebirth as a nation was the end of the story, but these Old Testament prophecies foretell a COMPLETE regathering and describe the conditions of the Millenial Kingdom - not just the partial regathering in unbelief that has thus far occurred. In other words, these are not fulfilled to completion:



Ezekiel 36: 22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: I do not this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for my holy name, which ye have profaned among the nations, whither ye went.



23 And I will sanctify my great name, which hath been profaned among the nations, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the nations shall know that I am Jehovah, saith the Lord Jehovah, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.



24 For I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all the countries, and will bring you into your own land.



25 And I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.



26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.



27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.



28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.



29 And I will save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the grain, and will multiply it, and lay no famine upon you.



30 And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye may receive no more the reproach of famine among the nations.



31 Then shall ye remember your evil ways, and your doings that were not good; and ye shall loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations..................................................................benny

By all of this what you mean to say is that the elect in Matt 24 does not refer to Christians being raptured immediately AFTER the great tribulation. You are trying to say that God has two elects. The elect Christian raptured before the trib and the elect Jew as a physical remnant gathered to be a physical nation. This is typical pretrib argument. God has two bodies, two brides, two last trumpets, two second comings of Christ (or is that a second and third?), two gatherings.
Trouble with this theory is that Matt 24 specifically mentions that many of those gathered to Christ (AFTER the tribulation) are gathered from heaven.

31 And he shall send his angels with [1] a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Which is just what the apostle says of those dead in Christ awaiting the resurrection in heaven

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Perhaps you would like to argue that the elect gathered from heaven refers to physical remnant jews who are floating in the sky at the return of Christ. No on second reading it seems you are saying that God will resurrect dead remnant jews to physical life to establish a physical nation of Israel in the millenial kingdom. Is that what you are saying?
Any wonder you chose to "Leave off the debate over the gathering of the heavens (which is really interesting too!)" because if you had not your theory would have gone up utterly in smoke.

Even if the term "elect" does include remnant physical Jews who have not confessed Christ and are therefore not Christians; it does not prove that the term "elect" does NOT also include Christians as well. For example Christ said:

Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So according to you God shortens those days for the sake of remnant jews NOT for the elect Christian.

And Christ said.
Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

So therefore according to you we have no fear of being deceived by false Christs and false signs and wonders only physical remnant jews do.

What a terribly alarming sense of false security you lull your audience into therefore. Which is the mark and deception of the pretrib view which teaches we have no need to be concerned about the temptations of the antiChrist because we will all be whisked away before he hits town.

Whose purpose is served by such a teaching may I ask?

There is no doubt, in my mind that is, as to the Jews of Israel being the elect of God as spoken of regarding prophecy.
First a description in Hebrew what the word elect is and what it's meaning is.
In Hebrew 'elect' is 'bachiyr' (baw-kheer') and means 'chosen one or as in 1 Chronicles 16:13, O ye seed of Israel his servant, ye children of Jacob, his chosen. It is from the root word 'bachar' (baw-khar') meaning to choose or select.
And in Greek it is 'eklektos' (ek-lek-tos') and means about the same, chosen out or favorite.
Let's start with Isaiah 42:1. This is, at least in the KJV, the first use of the term 'elect.'
This verse is quoted again in Matthew 12:18-21.
The verse is "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit in him: he shall bring forth judgement to the Gentiles"
God is of course refering to Jesus, as recorded by the prophet Isaiah.
Remember now Jesus was and is a Jew.
The next time we see God using this term is Isaiah 45:4.
Let's look at this verse.
"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel my elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me."
The Lord our God, the God of Israel, the God of Jacob says Himself Israel is His elect. The Jew, not the Gentile.
God again speaks of His elect in Isaiah 65:9.
"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and my elect shall inherit it, and my servants dwell there"
Again the Jew, Israel are seen as God's elect, by God's own admission.
Now let's move into the New Testament.
Jesus is the first to mention the elect in Matthew 24:24
It reads: "For there shall arise false Christ's annd false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the elect"
Then we see in verse 31 Jesus tells us; "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other"
If we look in Deuteronomy 32:26 "I said, I will scatter them unto corners..." God scatters them throughout the world. And I am certain there are Jews in heaven to be gathered at the last. Like Moses and even the sons of Moses etc.
Now concerning us, the grafted in Gentiles.
The word Gentile is an interesting word and not, by the way, in Hebrew or Jewish verbiage, a pleasant one.
Gentile in Hebrew is 'gowy' or 'goy' and means in general terms a massing or group. In regards to gathering of people it means a nation. Where the derogatory connotation comes is from it's Hebrew root word. That is 'gev' (gave) and means the back or middle of the backside. I don't have to be more descriptive to tell you what part of the humman anatomy lies there. Get the picture?
Gentiles were the heathens, unclean, uncircumcised non-Jew.
Now we come to the 'grafting in' that God did for us, the Gentiles.
If we go all the way back to Deuteronomy 32 in what is commonly known as the Song Of Moses. Moses recites to the whole of Israel this word from God to His people. Look at verse 21: KJV "They (Israel) have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealosy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation" Those which are not a people, that foolish nation, is us, the Gentiles.
The Paul recites in Romans 10:19 (NIV) First Moses says; "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding"
We are that nation, the Gentiles.
We are a grafted in peoples who were used of God to get His elect, the Jews, the nation of Israel jealous so they would turn to God and get the gift He has been trying since the days of Moses to give them, their inheritance.
Read Romans 11:11 through the end. We are not God's elect, we are the grafted in branch and all of Israel will be saved.
In Romans 11:28 the key is given to the fate of Israel and the Gentiles. Listen to the sweetness of this:
NIV "As far as the gospel is concerned, they (Israel) are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29: for God's gifts and His call are irrevocable"
Do you know just what 'Jew' means? In Hebrew it is 'Yehuwdiy' (yeh-hoo-dee') and means first, celebrated, Judaite or of Judah.
It is a derivitive of the name of God Himself! Yehovah. Remeber back in Isaiah 45:4? God says "I have surnamed thee" in Hebrew this is 'kanah' (kaw-naw') and means to eulogize, flatter. He gave them a name like His own!
As much as it is a sweet thing to be chosen, as it were, by God to be a people used to turn His elect back towards Him to receive the gift of eternal life He has been trying since the beginning to give them, we are not His elect.
We are a grafted in nation of heathen pagans (ethnos in Greek) and should be exceedingly grateful, but we are not God's elect. That is reserved for His first love, the nation of Israel and the Jew.
The verse in Mt. 24:24 about the deception of the elect, if it were possible. How can you deceive a people that do not yet believe and as God's own word says in Romans 11:25-27 states implicitly;
"...blindness in part has happened to Israel. until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26: And so all Israel will be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27: For it is my covenant with them, when I shall take away their sins" Not if, but when.

Well, you have your take, mine is this that Satan wants Gentiles to believe that the rapture is sometime way off. The only way we (the bride) would not be ready and waiting is if we were deceived into thinking it came some time after the covenant with many is made.
Clearly if we saw that happen, we would know to the day when Jesus was coming. The only way it can be 'as a thief in the night' is pre-tribulation. As soon as the covenant with many is signed, we can count the days and we would know precisely when Jesus was coming back. Seven years, 3 1/2 years add the days. In any scenario but pe-trib, we would know and scripture tells us it is not so............................benny ....P.S.....read in the "General Bible study" section...."The Martyred Saints Of Revelations & The Harvest".........The evidence weighs strongly for a pre-trib rapture.

The church is not just the Gentiles but includes those from Israel that repent of their sins . Paul was a Jew and part of the church. So the elect includes all who are elected. Church means "called out ones", so we cannot exclude Israel by making them part of some other system other than salvation through faith. Jesus came to them first with that message.They rejected it. We came in. Now its still the same for them: They also have to repent to be saved.
We should be more concerned with: Many be called, but few are chosen. (elected) The church is full of the "called". Now the race is on.

C this is how I have always understood it too according to scripture.
love,
rosie

Jesus said, "I'm not sent to the gentiles.........I'm sent ONLY to the Jews"

The 4 Gospels are God's message TO THE JEWS.

The message to the Gentiles starts AFTER the 4 Gospels, with Acts, and the APOSTLE TO THE GENTILES, PAUL.

We gentiles can learn much from the 4 Gospels, but they're not written TO US GENTILES.

Matthew 24 is written to the Jews (both Messianic jews and non-Messianic Jews).........
verse 15..........see the abomination IN THE STONE TEMPLE
verse 16.........the Jews in Judea
verse 20........the sabbath is important ONLY TO THE JEWS
verse 26 and 27.........don't look for Christ to appear on earth, HIS SIGN WILL APPEAR IN THE SKY (this is not the rapture)
verse 30.........is the same event as daniel 7;13
verse 31.........is the same event as Isa 27;13 and Zech 9;14
the fig tree is Israel..........Deut 8;8...........Israel IS SUPPOSED TO PRODUCE FRUIT
verse 37-39.............God takes away the wicked, as in Noah's day
verse 40-41..........the wicked are taken away from earth, to destruction..........the Jews are left on earth to enter the Millennial Reign as MORTALS

Noah was left on earth, to re-populate the earth
the gentile and Jew believers who survive the Trib .........are left on earth to re-populate the earth

in the OT and the 4 Gospels,....... the Rapture, the Church, the 2000 year Church Age .........are NOT mentioned..........
the OT and the 4 Gospels are written to the ELECT NATION (the Jews).
the 70 weeks (Daniel's 490 years) are described in the OT and the 4 Gospels..........
the 2000 year Church Age is not described to the JEWS, since Jesus was sent TO THE JEWS ONLY, and Jesus told the Jews about the 490 years allotted to the times of the Jews)
the 2000 year Church Age is the "times of the gentiles"


Messianic Jews who believe in Jesus BEFORE THE RAPTURE.......are Christians , and they go up in the Rapture.

Jews (and gentiles) who start to believe in Jesus AFTER THE RAPTURE........must go thru the Trib


dennis

Christ was addressing Christians. Originally only remnant believing Jews were added to church during the lifetime of Christ in order to fulfill the prophecy that salvation is of the Jews and as Paul said Honour and glory to the Jew first and also to the Gentile. Christ was sent to the Jews for this reason. Paul was sent by Christ later to bring salvation to the Gentiles. As a result thousands were added from all nations to the body of Christians whom Christ addressed in Matt 24. Christ's teachings are therefore relevant to all of his followers both of Jewish and Gentile stock.


If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then Gentile Christians do not need to heed anything in the gospels and should observe only the book of Acts and the Epistles. Clearly that it erroneus. So therefore it is also erroneus to suggest that Matt 24 is only applicable to Jewish Christians.

It is double talk to suggest that the gospels are not personally directed to us and then on the other hand say that we can learn from them. When Jesus said John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Are you saying that this is not addressed to us personally. I reject such nonsense and confess to be one of Jesus' sheep. I know him and follow him and he knows me. He does not only know Jewish Christians.

In fact Jesus even alluded to the mystery of the Gentile church when he said John 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

So you are wrong to say that there are two folds. One of Jewish Christians of the 1st century and another of the Gentile Christian. We are all one fold and the Shepherd has one message for all his sheep which are in his fold and which follow him

Thanks Rosie

And yes I agree with excubitor. We are one fold. One church. We are the people of the Spirit. The old testament Jews were the people of the letter. The letter kill and the spirit brings life.

One "body of Christ" Only those who have repented (changed their minds) and are following Jesus (walking as He did, by looking in the Word to follow what it says) Jews and Gentiles: One church.

The 4 gospels are written for Jews and Gentiles alike.....But Matthew 24 is very much directed to the Jews. But yet signs are spoken in such a way that would directed to believers and unbelievers of the approuching 70 weeks of daniel, and yet again, directed to tribulation believers and unbelievers, whether Jew or Gentile during Daniels 70th week...Those who had been left behind at the rapture prior to Daniels 70th week....For those who would doubt this.....the article below will open your eyes............................................................................................The Martyred Saints Of Revelations
&
The Harvest

How does the end of the age Harvest fit into the book of Revelations? The Harvest picture is revealed in the Feast of Tabernacles that the Jews celebrated at the end of the Harvest season. Many people have never considered the Feast of Tabernacles when discussing Revelations and especially as it pertains to the Martyred Saints. Jesus disciples ask,...when shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the (age)? Matt 24:3. Jesus said ...the HARVEST is the end of the (age), Matt 13:39. The Jews celebrate The Feast Of Tabernacles, at the end of the Harvest or growing season, and it commemorates the deliverance of God's people from Egypt and their journey through the wilderness. This is the time when they dwelt in tents and Booths, or temporary shelters. I need to point out right away that as you read this, keep in mind the scriptures in Revelations that talk about the Martyred Saints and what they are to wear and what they have in their hands and even what they say. Notice how they have to wait 7 years and how this runs parallel to the Feast of Tabernacles where they wait 7 days! People will ask, what does the Feast of Tabernacles have to do with Revelations? The answer is in, (the Harvest at the end of the age), so then, let's pay attention to what the Jews did during The Feast Of Tabernacles which follows the Harvest season! If the Harvest is the end of the age then we should have some insight into what The Feast of Tabernacles is showing.

The names for the Sukkot are, The Feast of Tabernacles, Feast of the Lord, The Feast, Feast of Ingathering, The Feast of Booths. These are all pointing to the same Feast, The Feast of Tabernacles, scriptures are, Lev 23:34, Deut 16:13-15, 31:10, 2 Chron 8:13, Ezra 3:4, Zec 14:16-19.

Lev 23:39-42 says, Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eight day a sabbath. And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days....Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:

There is a distinction to be made here between, The Feast of Weeks at Pentecost with the Firstfruits of the Barley offering 50 days after Passover, and the Feast of Ingatherings at the end of the growing season in the fall. Ex 34:22 explains it, And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the first fruits of wheat, AND the feast of ingathering at the year's end. They are two different events in the Jewish festivals.

The Feast of Tabernacles is to commemorate what the Israelites went through coming out of Egypt, and dwelling in booths and temporary shelters. This Feast also looks ahead Prophetically into the future with the Jews still looking for Messiah and it also includes the Gentile Nations! We read in Zech 14:16, And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and TO KEEP THE FEAST OF TABERNACLES. This is a clear picture of what will happen even into the Millennium with the gentile nations! There will be consequences for not obeying this Feast during the Millennium for the Nations LEFT on earth. The point is, this is a look ahead at what the Feast means, even for the gentiles into the future! Then following the 7 days, there was to be a holy convocation on the 8th day called, atzeret, it was to be a day of abstinence and austerity and it marked (the end of the reaping) and a new beginning agricultural cycle. This is where some Bible scholars point to the millennial kingdom being set up at this time. This would make sense because the number eight means a new beginning. This 8th day begins to look ahead into the Kingdom age of the Millennium. Leprosy a picture of sin, was cleansed on the eight day, Lev 14:10,23. This is a picture of the atzeret, the time the Jews are looking to for Messiah to come and save them, bringing the start of the Kingdom on earth.


There is much to say about the Jews Celebration of the Feast of Tabernacles. Israel would recite the Hallel Psalms 113 to 118, during The Feast Of Tabernacles. In Psalms 118:25 it shows the expectation of the Jews for their Messiah to come and save them! This is highly suggestive due to the Harvest being the end of the age, and this Feast of 7 days following at the END of the Harvest. We must take a serious look at this Feast of, Sukkot, The Feast Of Tabernacles and what it is revealing. It is most interesting to realize that in Psalm 116:15, that this is a place in the Bible where it says something about the death of the Lord's Saints! It says, Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his Saints. As suggested, if this Harvest festival parallel's the End of the Age, then we have some interesting features of the Feast to look at as it concerns the Martyrs in the Book of Revelations. In other words, if the Rapture has happened in Rev 4:1 and it represented the main Harvest, then we can look at these Martyred Saints through the eyes of the Feast to get a better picture as to what is going to happen throughout Revelations as it's revealed through the Jewish Festival! We now have three major themes all happening in order. The Harvest happens first, then the Martyred Saints are seen in the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles, or 7 years as it is seen in The Book Revelations. They are in Temporary shelters under the alter waiting for the Lord to Resurrect them, as the Jews are in temporary shelters looking for Messiah at the end of their Feast of Tabernacles! All three of these now line up in sequence with this Feast of Ingatherings as it concerns, The Harvest, the Revelation Martyrs and the end of the Age. All of this is revealed in the Feast of Tabernacles.

There were also 70 bulls sacrificed during the Sukkot and Rabbis to this day will tell you that it represents sacrifices for the Nations, 70 being a number for the nations. Some Jewish sources say that world redemption is a major theme of the Feast of Tabernacles. In the Tribulation, or Daniel's 70th week there will be people from all across the world who will not take the mark, this shows how the gentiles are included into God's plans. They will be Martyred and will have temporary shelter under the Altar of the Almighty during Daniel's 70th week, Rev 6:9-11. Isn't it ironic that the 70th week of Daniel has to do with, God dealing with the Jewish Nation, and the number 70 has to do with, the sacrifices for the Nations during the Feast of Tabernacles! The Jews and the Gentiles are being dealt with during the Revelation. The Lord is working out his plan of Salvation for the Jews and the Gentiles, (after) the main Harvest, notice how the Church is missing in this picture of The Feast Of Tabernacles! The picture of the Church isn't revealed here because we were the main Harvest! John the Beloved was taken up to heaven way back in Rev 4:1 in the main Harvest and John is a clear picture of the Church. For the doubters who want to say the Church is martyred, John the Beloved was not Martyred! This shows you the Harvest picture in the Feast. The Harvest picture demands that there was a Harvest first! Then the 7 days of the Feast of Tabernacles!

When the Israelites made their booths, they then would dress in their finest clothes and dwell in these booths, notice how this is similar to when the Martyred Saints are given White Robes to wear. The Jews during the Feast lived (in temporary shelters for 7 days FOLLOWING the Harvest). This so clearly parallels the (Rapture Harvest of the Church) and how there will be many converts (after) the main Harvest, but the Martyrs in Revelation have to wait the 7 years for their brethren to be Martyred because they Missed the Rapture! They have not been Resurrected as yet and they have to wait under the Alter. They cry, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? This is not the normal response of a Christian, that's because these Martyrs are not the Church, but they do have a (Part) in the first Resurrection, Rev 20:4-6. Example,... when Stephen was martyred he said, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. Acts 7:60. This is a completely different response to what the Martyrs cry in Revelations 6. The Martyrs in the Revelation are the Gleanings that follow the main Harvest, Lev 19:9, 23:22. Grapes would not be picked again following the main harvest and they were mainly (left for the POOR and the FOREIGNERS). This again shows the Tribulation period, and it helps to explain the Martyrs place as the Gleanings during The Feast of Tabernacles . The first Resurrection is not over completely until the Gleanings (of the Poor and Foreigners) are brought in. Jer 6:9 says, ...Those who remain in Israel will be like grapes thoroughly gleaned from a vine. So go over them again, as though you were a grape harvester passing your hand over the branches one last time. This Festival is also know as the, Feast of Ingatherings, Ex 23:16.

After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9....And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, Rev 7:13-14. These are given Palm Branches, and like the Jews who still wait for Messiah, they would wave them during the Temple Festival looking ahead in the future. The similarities are striking, the Jews wait in booths or temporary shelters for 7 days and the Martyred Saints with their Palm Branches wait under the alter 7 years. This is all after the Harvest but it's all pictured in the Feast of Tabernacles!

The simple fact that the Martyrs in Revelations have white robes and are called Saints does not mean that they are the Church especially in light of, The Harvest, and The Feast of Tabernacles. The Martyred Saints have Palm branches in their hands just like the Jews used during the time of the feast that (followed the Harvest!) The 24 Elders are different, they picture the Old and New Testament Saints who were redeemed by the blood of the Lamb back in Revelations 4 & 5, they have thrones to sit on, and have Crowns on their heads and they throw them before the throne, they don't have Palm branches in their hands! But these Martyred Saints are waiting under the Alter with Palm Branches, and this is a good picture of the Feast of Tabernacles with the Palm branches being used, as they are looking ahead, waiting to be resurrected like the Jews look ahead for Messiah to come! These Palm branches were called a, Lulav, they are made from branches of Palms, myrtles, and willows, all fastened with a golden thread. The Lulavs, or Palm branches were used to wave during the Temple service. The Jews would come to the Temple holding an etrog, or citrus fruit, this was symbolic of the fruit of the Promised Land, and the booths are temporary shelters, they are all symbols of the Feast of Tabernacles as they wait for Messiah. It is this Typology that helps us understand who the Martyrs are in Revelations because once you see it you'll see the Harvest picture of Revelations, as it is shown in The Feast of Tabernacles.



There were two noteworthy features that were found in the Temple service of the Feast of Tabernacles. One was the pouring of water in the temple, it lasted six days climaxing on the seventh day. That day is called, Hoshanna Rabbah, The Day of Great Hosanna! It had great Messianic significance because the pouring of the water from the golden pitcher took place while the blasting of trumpets by the priests and the singing of the Hallel Psalms 113 to 118 they would wave their Lulavs or Palm branches. They shouted, Save Now, I beseech thee, O Lord! O Lord, I beseech thee, send now prosperity! Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.... The next feature within the Temple service was the Illumination of the Temple. They used four great towering candlesticks with four Golden bowls upon them. The priests would climb up and fill these bowls with 10 gallons of oil each. This along with the pilgrims who came with torches and lamps made for a spectacular sight, and there was no courtyard in Jerusalem that was not lit up with light during the water pouring ceremony! There is all kinds of great symbolism found here in the Feast of Tabernacles. On the 7th and final day of Sukkot the entire congregation would circle the alter 7 times with their Palm branches in hand singing, “Hosheanah, save us!”

It is noteworthy that when Jesus came into Jerusalem the people wanted to proclaim him Savior right then and there but his time had not yet come. They waved the Palm Branches and shouted Hosanna to the Son of David! During the last day of the great Feast of Tabernacles, ... Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water, John 7:37-38. At or near the end of the Feast Jesus said, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life, John 8:12. This is a marvelous account of the people instinctively knowing who Jesus was and then getting Palm branches and shouting, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord, 12:12-13. This is why the Feast of Tabernacles is such a prophetic Feast. It is the only Feast that is yet to be fulfilled. This is why the Harvest at the end of the age when the Lord returns shall shadow these events that are pictured in the Feast of Tabernacles. The Martyred Saints are clearly a part of this picture as they wait to be Resurrected, and this is the First Resurrection Rev 20:4-6...............................................................................................................................................benny ..P.S....Just remember The Feast Of Tabernacles (comes after the Harvest) and lasts 7 days. One can't change the Jewish Festival....... Line upon Line, Precept upon precept.

Yes, yes and yes. I believe He is coming back for one church. His church, His bride who believes in Him
and is faithful. Believers from all nations, tongues and races will be changed in the twinkling of an eye.

love,
rosie

God didn't start the Christian Church until after Christ died.

Christ lived and died under the Mosaic law. He didn't live under the New Covenant rules. Christ couldn't eat pork.
John the Baptist was not a Christian..........he was an OT Saint.
Mary was an OT Saint, until the Christian Church was started , AFTER Christ died. Then, she became a Christian (a Messianic Jew).

Jesus didn't preach to gentiles,.........He was sent to the Elect nation (Israel).
AFTER Israel had her chance at the New Covenant,.......God turned to the Gentiles............God took the Vineyard away from the Elect nation (Israel) , and gave the Vineyard to others (gentiles and Messianic jews, Christians) , who WOULD produce fruit. Israel failed (as a nation) to produce fruit.

All True Christians produce fruit. The Christians who stop producing fruit are cut off from the True Vine. John 15;1,2


there are no instructions in the OT or the 4 Gospels for running a Christian Church.

Jesus didn't preach the gospel to Cornelius (a gentile).
Jesus never told the Apostles (disciples) to preach to any-one except the Jews (the lost sheep of Israel). UNTIL AFTER CHRIST DIED. THEN, THEY WERE SENT TO ALL THE WORLD, beginning in jerusalem.
To the Jew first.......then, to the gentile.

The Gospel of the new Covenant was preached to the jew first,..........then later, after Christ died, to the gentile.
Were the jews "better" than the Gentiles? No, but God favored the jews FOR THE FATHERS' SAKE (the fathers were Abraham, Issac, Jacob).

God curses the children of the wicked to the 3rd generation, but He loves and blesses the children of the righteous to a thousand generations.

if they had wanted to, all the Jews in Israel could have become Christians, but Many rejected Christ. Only a Few believed in Christ, and they became Christians AFTER Christ's death.


Matthew 25;3
the lamps burn olive oil.
olive oil is a symbol of the Holy Spirit, through-out the bible.
what do you get from a lamp ,when it is burning the oil?............Light.............Jesus said "I am the Light of the world. Let your light shine before men, so that the Heavenly Father will be glorified."

The ten """virgins""" are believers in Christ (Messianic Jews , Christians).
amplified bible
the 144,000 Jews in Revelation are """virgins""".


***********
Matthew 24;50
the individual jews in OT times were never called "children" of God.........they were called the "servants " of God.

In the NT, born-again-Christains are NOT called servants.......they are called sons of God, children of God.......they are adopted children..............Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN "natural" Son of God (non-adopted).


dennis

Yes Dennis....I agree with you 99%....The New King James Version,...In the commentary section on the first page of Matthew, It states:...Matthew is the gospel written by a jew to jews about a Jew. ....You stated..."God didn't start the Christian Church until after Christ died.".......I started to make that very statement myself on the post I made earlier....You also stated that We could learn from the 4 gospels but it was written to the Jew.....once again I agree with you 99%.....The reason I leave out the 1% is because the Lord knew us by name before the foundations of the earth created, and He knew that "WE" would read His WORD.......Yes...."WE" have learned from the 4 gospels.........In Matthew 24....It was very much directed to the Jews by the Lord Jesus Himself....The signs of His coming and the end of the age.....and by those signs, "WE" know that His coming is near ....And for those left behind who go thru Daniels 70th week, will learn too from the 4 gospels, Acts, revelation, and the old testiment........................God Bless....................benny

i'm not saying that there are 2 churches, 2 brides, 2 bodies of christ.

there is 1 church, made of jews and gentiles

all who believe in Christ BEFORE the rapture, go up in the rapture.

all who believe after the rapture, must go thru the Trib, and many will die in the Trib (i think)

at the end-of-trib,........God will remove the un-believing survivors (the angels will pluck them off from the earth), and ONLY belivers (jews and gentiles) will be left on earth to enter the Mill Reign AS MORTALS..........they will have children, grandchildren and generations , to re-populate the earth after the Trib.

all who believe BEFORE the rapture will be part of the Church (Bride), and will be IMMORTALS with resurrection bodies, they will be Glorified, sinless, and will Reign with Christ during the Mill Reign and beyond.
and these will NOT have babies (they will be like the angels, in that angels don't marry or have children)

**********
you said:
When Jesus said John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

*********
my thoughts:
these words applied to the jews who believed in Christ BEFORE His death, but these Jews didn't become part of the Christian Church until AFTER the Church was born AFTER Christ's death.
These words (John 10;27) apply to Christians today, but they were spoken to the jews first,......then, later,,,,, they apply to the gentiles AFTER Christ's death.

The Christian Church (in it's first few days and years) was mostly filled with jews, ..........later.............the gentiles came into the Church and eventually out-numbered the jews.....................Both Jew and Gentile combined to become the Christian Church.


BEFORE Christ's death (during Christ's 3 year ministry),,,,, Messianic Jewish believers had to live under the Mosaic law.
AFTER Christ's death, these Messianic jewish believers became Christians ,,,,,,,and were not subject to obedience to the Mosaic law (they could eat pork).


dennis

You really have no idea do you? What is a Christian? A follower of Jesus Christ. So you are saying that the disciples were not Christians until after Jesus died. What absolutely poppycock. Unfortunately this is an example of the addled thinking which rapture believers are forced into. The church instead of being an unbroken congregation which included all the Old Testament saints is forced to have a beginning and an ending. So it ends at the rapture therefore the Trib saints cannot be part of the church. Therefore if it ends at the rapture then when did it begin? Oh it must have been at the death of Christ.

SCRIPTURE PLEASE. Where does such an erroneus idea come from? Then having believed an outlandish belief that the church began at Christ's death they then have to strike John the Baptist out of the church.
None of the Old Testament saints are then a part of the church either. So on what account are they saved and enter into immortal life? Then we have the pesky problem of the Tribulation Saints. Somehow they miraculously come to the faith even though there is no church to preach the gospel to them. And when they get beheaded they have no hope of resurrection because that already happened at the rapture. So pretribbers have to invent another resurrection for them so that they can come in late as guests to the wedding supper.

The ONLY scenario which makes sense is that salvation was available to the Jews who served God with their whole heart. David, Elijah Elisha Ezekiel etc. all part of the congregation of Israel. Not the nation which fell away into sin, but the remnant of God's people who did not incline their heart to idols. Who was their Lord. No other Lord did they have than the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ (the word of God). How was their sin forgiven? By the death of Jesus Christ to pay for the penalty of their sins. By what hope are they to be resurrected? By the resurrection of Jesus Christ. When will they be resurrected? At the glorious return of Jesus Christ when they shall be raised to new life to rule for 1000 years with Christ and all the saints. What do you say David. Don't you think that the Old Testament Saints will be a part of the Bride of Christ at the marriage of the lamb following the first resurrection?

And what of the tribulation saints. Are these not also members of the body of Christ because they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ? Is it not their belief in Jesus Christ that causes them to be called Christians? And if they are Christians of the body of Christ then how can they not be considered part of the church. And when will they be resurrected if not at the glorious return of the Lord Jesus Christ then when?

ONE resurrection for the ONE fold of the ONE body of the ONE Lord and saviour of all men.

The utter absurdity of the pretrib rapture argument is plainly seen when we read a single passage of scripture which describes the Tribulation Saints.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Clearly these saints lived and died during the Great Tribulation. But then it goes on to say they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION. How clear can it be?

So clearly the Tribulation Saints are resurrected at the First Resurrection. But then the passage goes on to say that there are no more resurrections until after the 1000 years of Christs reign.
THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED.

But hang on Pre Tribbers believe that the first resurrection is at the start of the tribulation. So how can the Tribulation saints be both resurrected at the start of the tribulation and live and die during the Great Tribulation? Obviously this is impossible. So what do pretribber do to reconcile this very obvious defect in their belief? Search me? Maybe Benny our cut and paste expert can tell us. But I imagine they believe that the First Resurrection is in two phases. Just like they believe that the return of Christ is in two phases. How outrageous to believe that there are phases of resurrection when there is nothing in the scripture to describe phasings. How can a resurrection have a second phase and still be called the first resurrection? I count three resurrections by the pretrib reckoning. One at the start of the tribulation for the church a second at the end of the tribulation for the Tribulation Saints and a third at the end of the millenium for the rest of the dead. While we are at it lets invent another resurrection for the Old Testament Saints and John the Baptist. We could have that straight after Armaggedon. That's neat. What do you reckon guys?

Despite the strident failings of their argument, pretrib rapturators nevertheless do not even break stride but continue to prattle on about the rapture, pasting volumes of baloney off other web sites. They continually concoct layers of absurd argument to build their mountain of doctrinal error to such an extent that when it is proven that the mountain is made of dung it has become an impossible task for them to dig it up and take it to the dump where it belongs. So rather than face the mountain of dung they ignore the issue and instead pile another layer of concocted doctrine upon it.

The pretrib rapture is a disgraceful doctrine, a delusion straight from the pits of hell. A deception of the enemy unparallelled in these last days. I warn all Christians that it is the man who thinks he will not fall into the pit that will fall in the pit. It is the man who is aware of the terrible danger of falling into the pit who will watchfully pick his path. Reject the pretrib rapture doctrine for the sake of your souls and prepare yourselves for the time of testing which God has ordained for all the saints of the church in the last days.

the last 7 years of "daniel's 70 weeks of years (490 years)" are called "the time of Jacob's trouble".

they are not called "the time of Israel's trouble".
they are not called "the time of the Church's trouble".

the believing jews and the believing gentiles came together as the Christian Church, and they became "Christians".

When Jacob began to trust in God, God changed his name from Jacob to Israel.

My point is:
the 7 year Trib is a time when un-believing Jews (the nation) will be in very troublesome times.

but, the True Christian Church is not un-believing............she believes God.

the 483 years (the 69 weeks) ended on Palm Sunday, about 32 AD. as per Dave Hunt. contact Dave for a good Audio-CD on this.
www.thebereancall.org

the last 7 years of the 490 is in our future.

dennis

Errr. Excuse me but what is your point about the time of Jacobs trouble?
You even said yourself Jacob is Israel. I have also posted very many posts on this site to show that the church is Israel. That the unbelieving Jews who rejected Christ were cut off and the believing gentiles grafted on, so that there is just one vine.

Why cant you answer the question. If an unbelieving Jew comes to the faith during the tribulation why does he miss out on the first resurrection.

There are so many holes in your argument that you cannot even begin to answer these legitimate questions

Dear Excubitor,....Dennis Mann is very correct in the post that he stated......But the main point is that you will quote any possible scripture that you can to defend your post trib belief which is in error.....and of course I will come right back at you, proving that the pre- trib is correct.....You are on this forum now, so let's you and see what "WE' come up with.....(And let's be nice to each other)........I have a question for you, which I already know the answer too....But I want to be certain what your view is.....Now here is my question....."Where does the marriage supper of the lamb take place (It's Location)..............................benny

Well excuse me for quoting scripture to defend my belief. What else would you have me do. Not only do I quote scripture to defend my belief, I also quote scripture to entirely dismantle yours.

We've been over the location of the marriage supper before Benny.

Just answer my question please. You know you can't so you try to distract me with another question.

Dear Excubitor,...WE shall see who dismantles who ....In the meantime....Your question has been answered time and time again, but you see and cannot see and hear and cannot hear.....Your answer is in the "General Bible Study" section titled under
The Martyred Saints Of Revelations & The Harvest
EXcubitor, Jesus was the First Fruits, Then there is those who are raptured prior to Daniels 70th week, and then the saints who were slain at the end of the tribulation period.......all three are a part of the first resurrection......But you know that, don't you.....And Israel and the Church are two separate cases......Even You stated to Dennis Manning:....That the church which consist of christians,.....'ARE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST".....But at this moment in time a majority of Israel have not accepted Jesus as thier long awaited Messiah....but that time is coming.........Now be nice, and answer My question.....At what location does the marriage supper of the Lamb transpire.....You answer is not just for me but also for those who may be new to this forum......Come on Excubitor show everyone that you have a good heart.....answer the question and I will give you a reply tomorrow....I promise to give it my best.............................................benny ....P.S. ....I thought to add this article by David Reagan.....Multiple Resurrections
Concerning resurrection, Jesus clearly taught that there would be more than one resurrection. In John 5:29 He refers to a "resurrection of life" and a "resurrection of judgment." The apostle Paul confirmed this concept in his defense before Felix when he stated that he believed the teaching of the prophets "that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked" (Acts 24:15).

Of course, it could be argued that the two resurrections referred to in these scriptures will occur at the same time. Thus, because they will happen simultaneously, there is, in effect, only one resurrection. However, the Scriptures establish the fact that the resurrection of the righteous will occur in stages.

In other words, the Bible does not teach one resurrection or even two resurrections in number. Rather, it teaches that there will be two resurrections in type which will be conducted in stages, resulting in several resurrections — at least four, to be specific.



The Resurrection of the Just
That the resurrection of the righteous will occur in stages is clearly taught in 1 Corinthians 15:20-24. In fact, the first stage of the resurrection of the righteous has already happened, for verse 20 says that "Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep."

Verses 22 and 23 go on to explain that all who have died in Christ shall be made alive, "but each in his own order: Christ, the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming."

The imagery of the harvest that is used in these verses is a key to understanding the first resurrection — the resurrection of the righteous.

The Harvest Imagery
In Bible times the harvest was conducted in three stages. It began with the gathering of the first fruits which were offered as a sacrifice of thanksgiving to God.

It proceeded with the general harvest. But not all was taken in this harvest. Some of the crop was left in the field to be gathered by the poor and the needy. This was called the gleanings (Leviticus 19:9-10).

Using this imagery, the Bible presents the resurrection of Jesus as the "first fruits" of the resurrection of the righteous. The gathering of the Church Age saints, living and dead, at the appearing of the Lord (the Rapture) is thus the general harvest stage of the resurrection of the righteous (John 14:1-3 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

But there is a third and final stage to this resurrection of the righteous. It is the gleanings, and it occurs at the end of the Tribulation when the Lord's Second Coming takes place. At that time two final groups of the righteous will be resurrected: 1) the Tribulation martyrs (Revelation 20:4), and 2) the Old Testament saints (Dan 12:2).

Some people are startled by the thought that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the end of the Tribulation. But keep in mind that the Rapture is a promise to the Church, and the Church only. Also, the book of Daniel makes it clear that the Old Testament saints will be resurrected at the end of the "time of distress" (Daniel 12:1-2).

So the first resurrection, the resurrection of the righteous, occurs in three stages, beginning with Christ, continuing with the Church at the Rapture, and culminating with the Tribulation martyrs and the Old Testament saints at the return of Jesus.

The Resurrection of the Unjust
The second type of resurrection, "the resurrection of the wicked" (Acts 24:15), will take place all at one time at the end of the millennial reign of Jesus. This is at the time of the Great White Throne Judgment, the judgment of the damned (Revelation 20:11-15).

Every person who ever failed to relate to God in faith will be resurrected at this time, regardless of when he or she may have lived and died — whether before or after the Cross. This resurrection will also include the unjust who died during the Tribulation and the Millennium.

There will be no need for an additional resurrection of the righteous at the end of the Millennium, because all those born during that time who accept Jesus as their Savior will live to the end of the Lord's reign (Isaiah 65:19-20). "'As the lifetime of a tree, so shall be the days of My people,'. . . says the Lord" (Isaiah 65:22,25). In other words, life spans during the Millennium will be returned to what they were at the beginning of time, before the flood.

I know that all Saints from the beginning of time until the return of Christ will be in the first resurrection.
Israel is not separate. If any Jew accepts Christ and get baptised then they become CHRISTIANS FOLLOWERS OF JESUS CHRIST. If they do not accept Christ then they are unbelieving Jews still cut off from the body of Christ and dead in their sins. How simple can it be? How do you propose that the nation of Israel is to be saved without them first becoming Christians (members of the church). I never stated or made any suggestion that Israel and the Church were separate entities, in fact I have continually argued that they are one and the same.

I have already answered your marriage supper question. If you are that interested do a search against my name for the word supper.



I knew it. The pretribber argument is that there are many stages of resurrection of the firstfruit. What an utter aberration of the word of God to suggest that Christians of the NT era will precede the old Testament Saints. Is not Abraham the father of the faith. And yet you have him completely missing out on being the bride of Christ. This is all covered in our marriage supper debate where you explain that the trib saints arrive late at the Wedding Supper (which has been going from 3.5 to 7 years depending on whose opinion you believe) and miss out on being the bride of Christ coming in as stragglers barely getting in the door to scrape up a few of the leftovers of the feast.

And now your man David Reagan has the same fate outlined for the Fathers of the faith. Not only are they not considered part of the bounty of the firstfruit harvest or the General harvest. THEY are considered the slim pickings of the work of God. The dregs and the leftovers. What a disgraceful teaching.

You bet I was startled by the thought that the Old Testament saints will not be resurrected until the end of the Tribulation. Not only was I startled, I was shocked appalled and outraged. I have never heard ANYBODY teach this tripe before. If this is the kind of notion that must be played out to make your argument stick then it only goes to prove that your argument is wrong from the very foundation. David Reagan has contorted the scripture beyond recognition with his effort here.

His whole premise is based on a concocted understanding of the harvest festivals. Its really quite simple. The firstfruit harvest pictures the first resurrection and the large general harvest pictures the second resurrection when the bulk of mankind is resurrected at the end of the millennium. David Reagan doesn’t even consider them in his harvest model.

No doubt David Reagan would be startled by the thought (if he would care to look it up) that the church is also described as the firstfruits.

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed [1] from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. 5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

So there goes David Reagans theory straight out the window.

So Christ is certainly the firstfruits, but we are the body of Christ aren’t we. We share in his inheritance. Therefore we are also firstfruits. His rising is the first of the firstfruits.

Jesus resurrection is symbolic of the wave sheaf offering in the middle of the feast of unleavened bread. It preceded the firstfruits festival of Pentecost by quite some time. Christ the firstfruits preceding the firstfruits gives rise to the Christian teaching of Christ being the “first of the firstfruits”. This principle is shown in
Ex 23:19 The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the Lord thy God.
The first of the firstfruits was the first produce taken from the land which was a promise and a sure hope that the entire crop of the firstfruits harvest was on its way. It was not for the people but was for the Father only John 20:17 “Touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father”

So here is the correct harvest model.
Passover – Christs sacrifice
Days of Unleavened Bread Wave Sheaf Offering – Christs resurrection and ascension
Feast of Pentecost – The smaller firstfruits harvest which pictures the firstfruits harvest of the church
Feast of Tabernacles – The larger general harvest. The harvest of the entire world which pictures the millennial rule of Christ culminating in the last great day of the Feast which is the Great White Throne Judgement at the second resurrection.

There is no Feast of the Gleanings.

Romans 9;4
amplified bible
Israel (as a nation, not as individuals) is adopted (elected) by God.

and paul wants Israel (as a nation) to be saved.
the church is saved.
the Elect nation (Israel, as a nation) is not saved.

paul is an Israelite, and he is a believer.
all 12 Apostles were Israelites, and all (except Iscariot) were believers.

so , Israel (as a nation) is not saved..........but a Few individual jews (such as Paul, Matthew, James, John, Andrew, Phillip, etc) are saved.

Romans 9;13
Malachi 1;2,3
God Elected Jacob (as a nation), and rejected Esau (as a nation).

romans 9;27
only a Few Israelites will be saved

romans 11;1
has God cast-away His own people? No, Paul was the "chief of sinners", and paul was a believer.

Preaching the Gospel is ........to the jew FIRST,.........then, later to the gentile.

romans 11;26
AFTER the times of the gentiles are finished, (verse 25),
"all Israel will be saved"..............when Christ Returns PHYSICALLY, all Israel will see with PHYSICAL vision that Christ is the Messiah, and then,....they (all) will believe, and "all will be saved"

verse 25 amplified bible
"a hardening has temporarily befallen a part of Israel to last until THE FULL NUMBER OF THE GENTILES HAS COME IN"

at some point in our future, "ALL THE GENTILES HAS COME IN"...........they "came in" either by death or by Rapture.

dennis

"Return from the wedding" (Luke 12:36) 4When Is the Wedding?"Pre-tribulationists have not one verse in the whole Bible which proves that the rapture comes before the tribulation. They come with arguments and implications, but where is just one little verse? Show me one verse."Challenges like this one I have read in post-trib literature, and such a challenge deserves to be answered. Can we meet the challenge? Do we have one verse that proves pre-tribulationism?THE ONE VERSEBefore I tell you what verse I have in mind, I want to ask you a question: When is the wedding? We know that the church is the bride and Christ is the bridegroom and someday we will be married. Earthly marriage is just a foretaste of the ultimate joy and fulfillment which we will experience at the heavenly marriage. And it will be without all the problems that earthly marriage has. An earthly wedding is beautiful to watch. But just think of the thrill and excitement we will experience at our heavenly wedding!My question is: When is it? I think we can all agree that it is at Christ's return. Paul wrote, "For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ" (2 Corinthians 11:2). Right now, according to Paul, we are "espoused." This means we are betrothed or engaged. This means we are not married yet. As long as we are in the church age we are in the engagement period, not the marriage period. So I think we can all agree that the wedding cannot take place until the rapture. Not one minute before. Agreed?Now, how about that challenge? Can we prove pre-tribulationism from one verse? I think we can. The verse is Luke 12:36:And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.Read it closely. Did you notice the phrase "return from the wedding"? What does that tell you? That one little phrase gives away the whole secret. You see, if the wedding occurred before this return, then the rapture occurred before this return. A prior wedding necessitates a prior coming. It's so simple. If this one verse does not set up a chronology, then my Bible is written in riddles instead of plain words.EXAMINING OBJECTIONSNothing more needs to be said, but lest there be any doubt about this, I'll take time now to examine possible objections.Objection Number 1: The Post-Trib Rapture Is the Wedding. A post-trib may reason that the post-trib rapture is the wedding. In other words, as we go up we are married, and as we come down moments later this is His return from the wedding.I do not object to the rapture being the wedding. But I do have one little question about this scheme.Who's waiting?Yes, who's waiting?The verse says to be like men who wait for their lord's return from the wedding. If all are raptured at this time, no one is left who will be waiting.The rapture does not fit at the end of the tribulation.Objection Number 2: It's Only a Parable. Some may object to getting a chronology out of Luke 12:36 by saying: It is only a parable. It's not talking about the real Lord or the real wedding. It's just an earthly illustration, that's all.Think now. What is a parable, after all? It is an earthly illustration with a heavenly meaning. Any other parable would be accepted as illustrating a heavenly meaning. Why not this one? Any other parable that talks about a wedding is commonly accepted as applying to the heavenly wedding. Any other parable that talks about a lord is commonly interpreted to apply to the Lord. Isn't that the purpose of a parable, to illustrate heavenly meaning?Want proof? Look at the following verse:Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them (Luke 12:37).What earthly lord does that, reversing the expected roles? Obviously, this earthly lord illustrates the heavenly Lord. Furthermore, verse 40 clearly applies this to the coming of the Son of man.The strength of the pre-trib position is that it can accept the chronology of Luke 12:36 at face value. The weakness of the post-trib position is that it cannot accept the implications of the chronology.We know that God inspired every word of the Bible; so we can trust the chronology in Luke 12:36. Would Jesus use an untruth to teach a truth? Of course not. Jesus is a better teacher than that. Out of all possible parables that He could have chosen or invented, He gave this one. Why? Why not another one? He gave us this particular parable because it teaches accurately concerning the second coming, and I cannot imagine Him choosing a parable that would be misleading in any way. Yes, we can trust the chronology.ANOTHER VERSE TO CONFIRM ITI am sure that some are thinking: you cannot prove doctrine from a parable. A parable can only be used to illustrate doctrine which is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture.I agree with this wholeheartedly. I merely used this one verse, Luke 12:36, because some post-tribs have asked for one verse, and so I gave it to them. But having done that, let us go to another passage in Revelation which confirms the illustration we have seen in Luke.Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of saints (Revelation 19:7–8).This passage also sets up a chronology, the identical chronology as Luke 12:36. Notice, "His wife hath made herself ready [past tense]." Notice also, "And to her was granted [past tense] that she should be arrayed in fine linen." Now if the wife, which is the church, is robed and readied, then she must also be raptured. Even without assuming that the wife is the church only, the implications remain valid. There is no way for her to be robed and readied unless she were in heaven, and there is no way for all believers who make up the wife to be in heaven without the rapture.If the rapture occurred previously, this would rule out a post-trib rapture, because at this point in Revelation 19 Christ has not yet left heaven to begin His descent to earth after the tribulation.To set Luke 12:36 and Revelation 19 in perspective, think of a shopping trip. Suppose my wife came in the door and said to me, "I just returned from the grocery store.""I'm glad you're home now, but where did you go?""I just said. I returned from the grocery store. A trip from the store implies a previous trip to the store.""Good point. That settles the chronology, but what other evidence do you have?""Evidence? Just look at the bags of groceries in my arms! Doesn't that tell you where I've been?"Just as my wife brought the groceries safely home, so Christ has brought His bride safely home to heaven by Revelation 19. The bride, robed and readied, are the "groceries," proving a previous trip to earth by Christ.The chronology of Revelation 19 does not fit post-tribulationism. It's that simple.But it's not that simple, really, because I am sure some will raise objections. So let's take time now to answer possible objections to our chronology in Revelation 19.Objection Number 1: The Wife Is Readied on Earth. Some may object that the wife may not wait until the rapture to be robed and readied. Why couldn't she receive robes on earth and be readied for the marriage while on earth?It is true that Revelation 3:18 speaks of being clothed in white raiment now. But being clothed spiritually is different from being clothed physically. Revelation 3:4–5 points up the difference:Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.Yes, we now have garments in a spiritual sense. But we await the actual moment when we will be arrayed physically. This happens only in heaven.Let me give you a real live example of this. Do you remember the souls under the altar in Revelation 6:9–11? When did they receive their white robes?And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice saying, How long, Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.As faithful as these souls were on earth, even unto death, they did not receive their robes on earth. They had to await heaven. Yes, this happened before their resurrection. But resurrection has nothing to do with my argument. My point is they had to await heaven. Yes, they are not church saints, but that is irrelevant to my argument because post-tribulationists believe they are church saints anyway. My point is they had to await heaven.I know of only one exception, and the exception proves the rule. Jesus was seen in dazzling white on the mount (Mark 9:1–3), but He was in a heavenly transfigured state at the time. You and I won't be arrayed like that until we get to heaven.Not only do these other Scriptures demand arrival in heaven, but the very definition of "fine linen" demands arrival in heaven. "Fine linen is the righteousnesses of saints" (Revelation 19:8). "Righteousnesses" is plural in the Greek; so we know it is talking about the various righteous deeds we do in the power of the Holy Spirit. If my robe is made up of the deeds I do, then my righteousness is not complete until my life on earth is complete. As long as I have more righteous deeds to do, my robe is not finished. Can you imagine going to a wedding, and here comes the bride down the aisle in a half completed wedding dress? A bride with holes in her dress not sewn up yet is not quite ready for the wedding.But the wife of the Lamb in Revelation 19 is ready. Her dress has no holes; all the sewing is done. She has no more righteous acts to perform; they are all done. She has no more deeds to do because her life on earth is complete. The very definition of "fine linen" will not allow the bride to be ready on earth.If the wife, which is the church, has arrived in heaven by Revelation 19, this not only disproves post-tribulationism but it also militates against the partial rapture theory which says that part of the church is raptured before the tribulation and the rest are left behind. This passage informs us that no segment of the bride is left straggling upon the earth. She is all in heaven. If she were not all in heaven, how could she be robed and ready?(Also against the partial-rapture theory, 1 Corinthians 15:51 says "we shall all be changed," not some of us. First Thessalonians 4:17 says "we which are alive" shall be raptured, not some of us).The attempt to robe the wife on earth has failed. Other Scripture forbid it, and the definition of "fine linen" forbids it. The wife has left earth and she has arrived in heaven by Revelation 19, and she had to get there somehow. She must have gotten there by rocket or by rapture.Objection Number 2: The Marriage Is After the Tribulation. In order to get around the idea of a rapture before Revelation 19 others may object that the marriage occurs after the tribulation. The marriage is mentioned before Christ's return, but it actually takes place after Christ's return.I agree that the marriage is after, but this objection misses my point altogether. My argument is based, not on the wife's marriage, but on her robing and readiness. The marriage may be future, but her preparation for the marriage is past. That's the point.This does raise a problem of a different nature, though. If Revelation 19 places the marriage after the tribulation, then why does Luke 12:36 place the wedding before the end of the tribulation? As you recall, Luke 12:36 says,And ye yourselves [be] like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding.Can both Luke 12:36 and Revelation 19 be correct? Is the wedding before or after Christ's return? Will the real wedding please stand up?This seems a problem only because of our English culture. Remember, the writers of the Bible did not live in our country. They didn't know anything about our weddings. They wrote from a background of their own wedding customs. According to Eastern marriage customs the marriage has three phases. Walvoord explains it this way:Though marriage customs varied in the ancient world, usually there were three major aspects: (1) The marriage contract was often consummated by the parents when the parties to the marriage were still children and not ready to assume adult responsibility. The payment of a suitable dowry was often a feature of the contract. When consummated, the contract meant that the couple were legally married. (2) At a later time when a couple had reached a suitable age, the second step in the wedding took place. This was a ceremony in which the bridegroom accompanied by his friends would go to the house of the bride and escort her to his home. This is the background of the parable of the virgins in Matthew 25:1–13. (3) Then the bridegroom would bring his bride to his home and the marriage supper, to which guests were invited, would take place. It was such a wedding feast that Christ attended at Cana as recorded in John 2:1–12.The marriage symbolism is beautifully fulfilled in the relationship of Christ to His church. The wedding contract is consummated at the time the church is redeemed. Every true Christian is joined to Christ in a legal marriage. When Christ comes for His church at the rapture, the second phase of the wedding is fulfilled, namely, the Bridegroom goes to receive His bride. The third phase then follows, that is, the wedding feast.1 So the marriage of the Bible has three phases, the betrothal, the processional, and the feast. We are in the betrothal stage now, the rapture-processional is what Luke 12:36 refers to ("return from the wedding"), and the feast is what Revelation 19 refers to. Therefore, we find no contradiction at all between Luke 12:36 and Revelation 19. They merely refer to different aspects of the marriage.(I am not disputing that Israel also is the bride, or part of the bride. She had an earlier marriage, divorce, and will be remarried. See Jeremiah 3:1,8,14,20. The marriage of Israel need not correspond in time with the marriage of the church, or at least I know of no Scripture which says so. Revelation 21:9–14 portrays a unity of the bride that does not wipe out distinctions.)There is also the matter of a feast to prepare for. Some people are under the impression that the marriage feast transpires during the tribulation instead of after the tribulation as we have said. But what is a feast without guests? If I invited people over to my house for dinner, I would not begin the meal until all the guests arrived. Who are the guests at the marriage supper of the Lamb? It couldn't be the church because the church is the bride. No one sends the bride an invitation to her own wedding. If not the church, then that leaves Old Testament saints and tribulation saints. These are the guests. If the feast took place in heaven during the tribulation, then the tribulation saints would miss the supper. And you and I would miss their company too.No, tribulation saints will not miss out on the wedding invitation. "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9). The mention of invited guests at this point tells me that the feast is anticipated instead of dissipated. Invited guests look forward to a feast. If the feast were almost over what would be the purpose of mentioning invited guests at this point?A second indication of a future feast is this: the wife is ready. Ready for what? Ready to attend the marriage feast, of course. Suppose you are invited out to dinner and you get all ready and go. You enjoy a delicious feast of fried chicken and all the trimmings. After you finish the main course out comes your favorite dessert, strawberry pie. You relish each bite of it, and just as you are about to take the last bite, your host exclaims, "Are you ready for dinner?" Quite out of place, isn't it? You see, the mention of the wife being "ready" at this point tells me the feast is future.A third indication of a future feast is the usage of the word "come" in the phrase "the marriage of the Lamb is come" (Revelation 19:7). In other words, it is about to begin. In Greek "is come" is in the past tense, but I understand it to be a dramatic past. The dramatic usage of a verb indicates that something is on the verge of happening. This usage of "come" is common in Revelation. It occurs, not once, nor twice, but it forms a striking pattern as you can see from checking out Revelation 6:17; 11:18; 14:7, 15. Let me show you one of these passages as an example:And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; and said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: for the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (Revelation 6:15–17).As you can see, the people are terrified of the wrath on the verge of breaking forth. If God's wrath had already vented itself, then it would be a little late for the people to cry for the mountains and rocks to fall on them. They yearn to hide, not from wrath past, but from wrath future. Their cry is, "Who shall be able [not who was able] to stand?" This illustrates the dramatic usage of "is come" as it is used consistently throughout Revelation. I believe Revelation 19:7 is no exception to the pattern, because in the context are the "ready wife" and the "invited guests" which point to a future feast.Evidence of a feast after the tribulation comes not only from this context, but also from other Scriptures. Matthew 25:10, from the parable of the virgins, is a fourth indication. The setting of this parable is after the tribulation as you can see by following the flow of thought from Matthew 24 onwards. At the conclusion of the parable, Jesus says that the wise virgins "went in with him to the marriage." Therefore, the marriage—that is, the marriage feast—is after the tribulation.A fifth indication of the time of the feast is what Jesus said to His disciples at the last supper. "But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom" (Matthew 26:29). This places the time at the commencement of the millennial kingdom after the tribulation.A wonderful celebration will be the marriage feast. I look forward to it very much. I will relish that meal more than I have relished any meal in my life. I hope to see you there too. If you are reading this book before the rapture, then you can be there as part of the bride, the wife of the King of the universe. If you are reading this after the rapture, then you can share in the celebration too as royal guests. Here is your invitation: "The Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Revelation 22:17).You have the opportunity, however, to choose your feast. Everyone alive at the end of the tribulation will attend a feast. If not the marriage feast, it will be another feast. What is this other feast?And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great (Revelation 19:17–18).Choose your feast. Will you enjoy the marriage feast? Or will you be enjoyed at the Supper of the Great God, not as guests, but as food?Pointing out the contrast between these two feasts is intended when John was instructed to write, "Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb" (Revelation 19:9). Our English translation loses something, but the Greek emphasizes the marriage feast by changing the word order so that it reads something like this: "Blessed are they which to the marriage supper of the Lamb are called." In other words, the language implies, "Blessed is he that is call to this feast rather than to that other feast."What a contrast!The future feast rests on past preparation. I happen to believe that the marriage feast is celebrated after the tribulation for the five reasons given above. So when a post-tribulationist objects that the feast is after, I fully agree with him. My argument is not based on the feast, but on the preparation.