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When Millions Vanish
by William T. James


A young mother will be walking the aisles of a Wal-Mart store, or perhaps a K-Mart or a Kroger store, her two-year-old daughter riding securely and happily in the shopping cart while they both look over all the brightly packaged goods on the shelves. A businessman will be entering an on-ramp to a freeway near Los Angeles, giving a nervous glance to his left to make sure he will have room to merge smoothly into the flow of traffic.
Half a world away, the captain of a 747, having just received permission to take off, will push the throttles fully forward and the gigantic bird will begin its roll between the runway lights that appear to come together in a sharp point in the distant darkness. A mother-to-be will reach for a ringing telephone, a broad smile on her face anticipating talking with her husband, who had promised to call once he was settled in at the airport hotel where his company is holding its quarterly sales meeting. Then, in a mind-confounding split-second, it will happen!

A surgeon in a Boston hospital who has just started the scalpel moving along the man's chest suddenly finds the blade cutting only air. The patient is gone!

A mortician in Dallas recoils in astonishment when the suit he is smoothing to make a corpse presentable collapses. The body is no longer there! The mother pushing the cart in the store turns back toward the basket with the items she has gotten from the shelf. Her little girl is missing! Only her toddler's colorful little dress and shoes remain in the cart in a crumpled heap. The woman's scream pierces the air, joining screams of panic reverberating throughout (he store. At the same moment in time, the commuting businessman in Los Angeles sees the big semi rig directly in front of him swerve sharply right and begin tumbling down the steep embankment while the roadways ahead and on either side of him explode with violent wrecks.

Precisely at that instant, the co-pilot in the 747's right seat panics when he realizes that the huge jet, now screaming down the runway at more than 100 miles per hour, is totally out of control, its pilot having disappeared!

The young father-to-be is shouting into the telephone, wanting to know what is wrong with his wife, who he hears crying hysterically. She has fallen to the floor and is desperately groping her abdomen, nearly insane because she cannot feel the baby who is no longer in her womb.

I believe literally billions of people around the world will suffer shocks similar to those depicted above, or will awaken to find they live in a world phenomenally different than the one they knew when they went to bed the night before.

Planet Earth reels with foreboding that something unknown is poised to thrust terrifying events upon our tumultuous generation. Anxiety swells within the collective mind of humanity as the new millennium rumbles in storm-like fashion toward us across the twenty-first century horizon. While optimism abounds that the new century will produce a brighter, better world, the foreboding eerily warns that the year 2000 likely harbors within its untraveled time region and beyond, perils of apocalyptic dimension.

Although worries about the future of our world grow daily, the overwhelming majority of earth's inhabitants, if they consider these matters at all, shrug off the beginning of the third millennium since the birth of Christ as portending nothing more than a continuation of things as they have always been. "Change of any kind for the masses will be for the better" is the general philosophical mindset of the globalist thinkers elite while they wrestle with the complex factors involved in dealing with miserable Third World squalor. Still, even through the malaise caused by their often heart- wrenching, day-to-day misery, there beats within the common pulse of the billions living in abject poverty seething unrest that leads to the inescapable sense that profound rearrangement on a planetary scale is about to take place.

Doomsday Worries

Although scoffers at doomsday talk most often attribute that talk to bizarre religious thinking and more and more in our day to religious right-wing fundamentalists, such gloomy predictions by secular writers and speakers far outnumber those issued by religionists of our time. Dr. J. Vernon McGee gave us a number of quotes from secular notables in his commentary introduction to the Book of the Revelation.

Knowledgeable men have been saying some very interesting things about this present hour. Please note that I am not quoting from any preachers but from outstanding men in other walks of life.

Dr. Urey, from the University of Chicago, who worked on the atomic bomb, began an article several years ago in Collier's magazine by saying, I am a frightened man, and I want to frighten YOU."

Dr. John R. Mott returned from a trip around the world and made the statement that this was "the most dangerous era the world has ever known." And he raised the question of where we are heading. Then he made this further statement, "When I think of human tragedy, as I saw it and felt it, of the Christian ideal's sacrificed as they have been, the thought comes to me that God is preparing the way for some immense direct action."

Chancellor Robert M. Hutchins, of the University of Chicago, gave many people a shock several years ago when he made the statement that "devoting our educational efforts to infants between six and twenty-one seems futile." And he added, "The world may not last long enough." He contended that for this reason we should begin adult education.

Winston Churchill said, "Time may be short."

Mr. Luce, the owner of Life, Time, and Fortune magazines, addressed a group of missionaries who were the first to return to their fields after the war. Speaking in San Francisco, he made the statement that when he was a boy, the son of a Presbyterian missionary in China, he and his father often discussed the premillennial coming of Christ, and he thought that all missionaries who believed in that teaching were inclined to be fanatical. And then Mr. Luce said, "I wonder if there wasn't something to that position after all."

It is very interesting to note that the Christian Century carried an article by Wesner Fallaw which said, "A function of the Christian is to make preparation for world's end."

Dr. Charles Beard, the American historian, said, "All over the world the thinkers and searchers who scan the horizon of the future are attempting to assess the values of civilization and speculating about its destiny."

Dr. William Yogt, in The Road to Civilization, wrote: "The handwriting on the wall of five continents now tells us that the Day of Judgment is at hand."

Dr. Raymond.B. Fosdick, president of the Rockefeller Foundation, said, "To many ears comes the sound of the tramp of doom. Time is short."

H.G. Wells declared before he died, "This world is at the end of its tether. The end of everything we call life is close at hand."

General Douglas MacArthur said, "We have had our last chance."

Fortner president Dwight Eisenhower said, "Without a moral regeneration throughout the world there is no hope for us as we are going to disappear one day in the dust of an atomic explosion."

Dr. Nicholas Murray Butler, ex-president of Columbia University, said, "The end cannot be far distant."'

Speculation about the end of the world spans the broad spectrum of both secular and religious thought. Postulation and propaganda on the subject ranges from the declaration that man is totally in control of his own destiny and therefore will always find ways to prevent doomsday, to wild-eyed fanaticism that preaches precise dates the world will end and urges followers of that preaching to engage in bizarre practices that include such things as adorning themselves in white robes and going to their rooftops to wait for the end to come. In a growing number of cases, dangerous cult leaders command their followers to go so far as to commit atrocities such as have been witnessed through the Jim Jones massacre and mass suicide in Guyana and the more recent Japanese nerve gas murder.

Thinking on both ends of this spectrum of end-time matters is dead wrong, as is easily provable by historical facts. Every peace made by man has eventually been broken by war. Conflicts grow increasingly more violent with each generation of war-making technology. Despite the incessant call for mankind to come together as one great planetary community, the divisions widen and become more numerous. Obviously, mankind cannot prevent doomsday. The fanatics who have set dates for the end of the world have time after time been proven wrong. Their antics and weird pronouncements and activities have served only to bring scoffing and derision upon themselves. Sadly, their lunacy has erected a barricade that adds to the difficulty of reaching the minds of men with the Word of God, who is the only One who knows all there is to know from beginning to end. Jesus Christ is the Living Word. To know the truth about the future, one must know Him.

One Electrifying Moment!

Based upon the only Truth there is, and without apology, this chapter's purpose is to proclaim with absolute confidence the fact that there is indeed coming one electrifying instant in time which will cause changes of epic proportion for all who live upon Planet Earth. That event will precipitate massive rearrangements in every facet of human existence. Those rearrangements will ultimately eventuate in what Jesus himself called the Great Tribulation, a time of trouble unprecedented in human history.

Jesus Christ, who is the Living Word (John 1: 1, 14), inspired the apostle Paul to write, "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Cor. 15:51-52;KJV).

God, the Holy Spirit, further wrote through Paul, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words" (I Thess. 4:16-18).

That this will be an electrifying moment for the child of God is perhaps the understatement of understatements! God's Word promises that the body of each believer in Jesus Christ who is alive at the time this indescribably momentous event takes place will be converted in "the twinkling of an eye" from a body that is in the process of decay leading toward death into a body eternally indestructible and beautiful beyond imagination.

The apostle Paul writes through inspiration: "For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 0 death, where is thy sting? 0 grave, where is thy victory?" (I Cor. 15: 53-54).

That instantaneous translation from mortal to supernatural being will be exhilarating beyond anything we can imagine within the framework of our present, finite intellectual capacity. Far exceeding that exhilaration, however, will be the joy of seeing Jesus Christ face to face and at last understanding through transformed and perfected senses the width and height and depth of God's holiness and love. Christians will at last know Christ as He truly is. Each believer will be like Him in that moment and will be eternally in His majestic presence. "But we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (I John 3:2).

The reason for Christ returning for true believers in Him will be achieved in less than one stunning second! All who have died in Christ since He began forming His Church at Pentecost will be made ready for heavenly citizenship on the spot, as Jesus himself promised His Bride, the Church. This includes all people who have accepted Him as Saviour and Lord since the day of Pentecost (Acts 2):

"Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also. And where I go ye know, and the way ye know" (John 14:1-3).

God Speaks to Us Through Contemporary Voices Jesus Christ's sudden catching up of all living believers from the planet's surface, to meet himself and all believers who have died since the day of Pentecost, to begin the journey to the heavenly city where He has been preparing mansions for them, will leave earth's inhabitants gasping in fear and wonderment. That secret taking away of Christ's Bride, the Church, although termed a mystery by the apostle Paul (I Cor. 15:51-58) when he penned the words under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, needs no longer be a mysterious prophetic doctrine. Truth about this miracle of God, which will be perhaps the most spectacular of all miracles surrounding the greatest of His works - His amazing saving grace through the shed blood of His only begotten Son on the cross at Calvary - has been unveiled for clear understanding by the Christians of our day.

The prophet Daniel foretold that as the time for the end of God's plan for the present earth system nears, "knowledge shall be increased" (Dan. 12:4). That knowledge, many biblical scholars believe, while including the vast body of general knowledge, refers most particularly to revealed biblical truths. When Daniel was told by the angel of God, "Seal the book, even to the time of the end" (Dan. 12:4), it is obvious that God planned to make at least some portion of His mysteries understandable to the generation alive at the end of this present earth system. The discipline eschatology - the study of endtime matters - is a recent development in the mining of the deep truths of God's prophetic Word.

Has the book Daniel was told would be sealed up until the end now been opened for examination? If so, do the new truths unveiled through eschatological methods as men and women of God are infused with understanding by the Holy Spirit make clear the mystery that Paul wrote about in I Corinthians 15:51-52 when he said, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"? Does any new understanding give credence to any of the several rapture theories?

Liberal theologians, almost without exception, proclaim prophecies clearly yet unfulfilled to be spiritual concepts that have already come to pass or spiritual concepts yet to come to pass. They see no physical reality in God's prophetic Word; rather, they consider the prophesied events merely interesting ideas to be used in the exercise of mental gymnastics upon the floor of theological debate. Tragically, many otherwise fundamentalist, conservative Christian scholars fall into the same trap of rationalizing and/or spiritualizing away future prophetic events such as the I Corinthians 15:51-58 description by the apostle Paul of a stunning event yet to come which he, under inspiration, interpreted to be literal.

Again, without apology, this chapter is meant to examine the coming microsecond of time in which millions of people will vanish. The Rapture of all living true believers and the resurrection of the bodies of all believers who have died since the Church Age began is a prophecy as Holy Spirit-given as was the prophecy in the Old Testament that promised Jesus Christ's first advent. This book's intention is to explore the many aspects and effects of that coming moment from the spiritually based perspective that the rapture will take place before the time known as Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7). That era will be the last seven years of the present world system, which will culminate with Christ's return to Planet Earth to put an end to man's madness. In other words, Raging into Apocalypse comes from the pre-Tribulation view.

In Good Company

The pre-Tribulation view of the rapture of the Church, indeed, the belief that there will be a rapture or a partial rapture at any intervening moment in history, has increasingly come under attack by theologians who are Christians as well as those who are not. Scoffing at the notion of the translation of and snatching away of Christ's own from the planet has intensified in recent times. While many true believers are firmly convinced that Christians who are alive at the end of the Church Age will go into the Great Tribulation called Jacob's trouble by Jeremiah the prophet, we who are also true Christians who believe that Christ himself will keep us from the very hour of temptation (Rev. 3: 10) by calling us to himself in the air above the earth (I Cor. 15:51-58) are accused of having "Star Trek" mentality. The pre- Tribulation Rapture view in particular is disparaged as "pie in the sky" and "beam me up, Scotty" fantasy.

Strangely, a significant segment of world observers apparently anticipates some sort of cosmic disruption in which millions of earth's inhabitants will be abducted in some fashion by superior beings from other worlds. Hope, according to the scoffers, puts us in the same company as science fiction buffs and New Age dreamers of our day. Many of them, like us, believe that at some point in the near future the earth will suffer a sudden disappearance of millions of its inhabitants.

"You are known by the company you keep" is an admonition many of us received from our parents early on in our lives. Those Christian theologians and others who criticize the pre-Tribulation view or even the Rapture in general most likely agree with that admonition. It would appear at surface level that such criticism is justified. And certainly it would be justified if, as they loudly proclaim, the view of Christ's "secret coming" for those who believe in Him is a false doctrine only recently concocted by those who preach it. So the question is: Are we in bad company with these sci-fi addicts and New Agers; or: Are we in good company - with those early believers through whom Christ began building His Body, the Church?

Beginnings of Christ's Church

Dr. J. Vernon McGee, referring to the Book of Daniel, stated in his radio program, "A great many use verse I to try to prove the Church is going through the Great Tribulation period. Well, if we've been following Daniel and listening to him, we understand he is talking about his people in the last days and he's not talking about the Church. The Church has already been raptured. The Church is not here. This is the resurrection of the Old Testament saints, which does not take place at the time of the rapture of the Church"

And in his commentary on Daniel, McGee continues: "Scripture clearly states that at the rapture those 'which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him' (I Thess. 4:14). Only, 'the dead in Christ shall rise first' (1 Thess. 4:16). We are in Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit which began on the day of Pentecost and will end at the Rapture. This particular body of believers is called the Church. We are told in I Corinthians 12:12-13, 'For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we, all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.' 112

Much of the disagreement involving the subject of the Rapture revolves around misunderstandings about what God's Word has to say regarding God's dealings with the nation Israel on the one hand and His program for Christ's church, or Bride, or body, on the other. The distinctions between these two separate programs are not easily or clearly discerned without a careful and prayerful study of the 70 weeks of Daniel (Dan. 9). Here, God outlines His program for "thy people" - meaning Daniel's people, Israel - and tells Daniel that there is a disruption of unspecified time between the sixty- ninth and seventieth weeks. Serious study with a heart toward understanding what this disruption is all about leads to the unraveling of the mystery called the Church in the New Testament (I Cor. 15:51). The sixtyninth week given in the Daniel account is history. The seventieth week - the seven- year Tribulation period spoken of by Jeremiah the prophet (Jer. 30:7) and by Jesus (Matt. 24) - is yet future. This age of disruption for God's nation Israel - this period in which you and I are privileged to live - is the Church Age.

I So are we who believe in a pre-Tribulation Rapture and a pre-millennial view (that is, that Christ will return literally to earth before earth enjoys a prophesied thousand years of peace and harmony called the Millennium) in good company or bad? Again, Dr. McGee provides some clear commentary in answer to the divisive question.

I am going to give you the viewpoints of many men in the past to demonstrate that they were looking for Christ to return. They were not looking for the Great Tribulation, they were not even looking for the Millennium, but they were looking for Him to come. This expectation is the very heart of the premillennial viewpoint as we hold it today.

Bamabas, who was a co-worker with the apostle Paul, has been quoted as saying, "The true Sabbath is the one thousand years ... when Christ comes back to reign."

Clement (A.D. 96), bishop of Rome, said, "Let us every hour expect the kingdom of God ... we know not the day.

Polycarp (A.D. 108), bishop of Smyrna and finally burned at the stake there, said, "He will raise us from the dead ... we shall ... reign with Him."

Ignatius, bishop of Antioch, who the historian Eusebius says was the apostle Peter's successor, commented, "Consider the times and expect Him."

Papias (A.D. 116), bishop of Hierapolis, who according to Irenaeus - saw and heard the apostle John, said, "There will be one thousand years ... when the reign of Christ personally will be established on earth."

Justin Martyr (A.D. 150) said, "I and all others who are orthodox Christians, on all points, know there will be a thousand years in Jerusalem ... as Isaiah and Ezekiel declared."

Irenaeus (A.D. 175), bishop of Lyons, commenting on Jesus' promise to drink again of the fruit of the vine in His Father's kingdom, argues: "That this ... can only be fulfilled upon our Lord's personal return to earth."

Tertullian (A.D. 200) said, "We do indeed confess that a kingdom is promised on earth."

Martin Luther said, "Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off."

John Calvin, in his third book of Institutes, wrote: "Scripture uniformly enjoins us to look with expectation for the advent of Christ."

Canon A.R. Fausset said this: "The early Christian fathers, Clement, Ignatius, Justin Martyr, and Irenaeus, looked for the Lord's speedy return as the necessary precursor of the millennial kingdom. Not until the professing Church lost her first love, and became the harlot resting on the world power, did she cease to be the Bride going forth to meet the Bridegroom, and seek to reign already on earth without waiting for His Advent."

Dr. Elliott wrote: "All primitive expositors, except Origen and the few who rejected Revelation, were preniillennial."

Gussler's work on church history says of this blessed hope that "it was so distinctly and prominently mentioned that we do not hesitate in regarding it as the general belief of that age."

Chillingworth declared: "It was the doctrine believed and taught by the most eminent fathers of the age next to the apostles and by none of that age condemned."

Dr. Adolf von Harnack wrote: "The earlier fathers Irenaeus, Hippolytus, Tertullian, etc. believed it because it was part of the tradition of the Early Church. It is the same all through the third and fourth centuries with those Latin theologians who escaped the influence of Greek speculation."

My friend, I have quoted these many men of the past as proof of the fact that from the days of the apostles and through the church of the first centuries the interpretation of the Scriptures was premillennial. When someone makes the statement that premillennialism is something that originated one hundred years ago with an old witch in England, he doesn't know what he is talking about. It is interesting to note that premillennialism was the belief of these very outstanding men of the early church.

Since these great forefathers of the Christian church eagerly longed for - even expected - Jesus Christ's return during their lifetime, it should be obvious to any believer with a heart toward inviting Holy Spirit discernment that they held unwaveringly to the belief that the Lord could return at any moment. If they had believed that Great Tribulation had to first occur before Christ returned, they would have certainly and ceaselessly warned all believers within their sphere of influence to be watching for the catastrophic occurrences and for the Antichrist, both of which Scripture tells us will have to come onto the scene before Jesus physically returns to earth to judge the nations and set up His millennial kingdom. That great cataclysm has not yet occurred. That last and most vicious tyrant of all, the Antichrist, has not yet come to power and subjected all the world as prophesied in Revelation 13. Man's final war called Armageddon is yet future. Yet these early saints of the Church Age anticipated that Jesus could have returned at any moment during the time they lived. They were most assuredly believers in the pre-Tribulation Rapture! We who hold to the belief in the imminent coming of Christ for His saints above Planet Earth to rapture them into His presence are not looking for "pie in the sky." We do, however, look for that great escape from God's coming wrath and judgment, as eloquently voiced by Dave Breese, one of the pre-eminent biblical prophecy scholars of our own day:

The Scripture says to Christians, "Because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep you from that hour of trial, temptation, tribulation, that will come upon the whole world to try them that dwell on the earth."

Therefore, we see in Scripture that the Bible says that Christ will come for His saints before the beginning of the Tribulation and take all believing Christians up to be with Him in heaven. Spoken of in I Thessalonians 4:16, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God; the dead in Christ shall rise first. We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Him in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul expands on this a little bit in I Corinthians 15, saying to the Corinthians, "Behold, I show you a mystery," something you could not figure out just by Aristotilian syllogism. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; the trumpet shall sound, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

So we can assure every believer ... that there will come a moment when they will be caught up in their physical body into the presence of Jesus Christ so as to ever be with the Lord."'

Rapture At Any Moment!

Dr. Dwight Pentecost, in his masterful work, Things to Come, .addresses the fact that God's prophetic Word points absolutely to the any-moment coming of Jesus Christ to fulfill His promise of John 14. This truth is termed the doctrine of imminence.

The church was told to live in the light of the imminent coming of the Lord to translate them in his presence.... Such passages as I Thessalonians 5:6; Titus 2:13; Revelation 3:3 all warn the believer to be watching for the Lord himself, not for signs that would precede His coming. It is true that the events of the seventieth week will cast an adumbration before the rapture, but the object of the believer's attention is always directed to Christ, never to these portents.

This doctrine of imminence, or "at any moment coming," is not anew doctrine with Darby, as is sometimes charged, although he did clarify, systematize, and popularize it. Such a belief in imminency marked the premillennialism of the early church fathers as well as the writers of the New Testament.

Although the eschatology of the Early Church may not be altogether clear on all points, for that subject was not the subject of serious consideration, yet the evidence is clear that they believed in the imminent return of Christ. This same view of imminence is clearly seen in the writings of the Reformers, even though they have had different views on eschatological questions.

The doctrine of imminence forbids the participation of the Church in any part of the seventieth week. The multitude of signs given to Israel to stir them to expectancy would then also be for the Church, and the Church could not be looking for Christ until these signs had been fulfilled. The fact that no signs are given to the Church, but she, rather, is commanded to watch for Christ, precludes her participation in the seventieth week .5

The apostle Paul tells in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 that there will come a startling change in the moral order for the end-time generation of mankind: "Only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked one be revealed." Author and lecturer Hal Lindsey gives an excellent overview of the truth about the office of the Holy Spirit in this Church Age and what the Holy Spirit's removal in performing His restraining office will mean.

First Corinthians 12:13 says: "For by one spirit we have been baptized into one body, whether bond or free, Jew or Greek, we have been made to drink into one spirit, for the body is not one member." So how do we get into one body? By the baptizing work of the Holy Spirit. There could have been no Church before the Holy Spirit came and started His ministry of taking each believer at the moment of salvation and baptizing into living union with Christ himself, joining us in a living, organic union with Christ, so that we are in Christ from that moment on.

He takes up permanent residence in every believer. He puts every believer in union with Christ. He makes it possible for us to be sealed With His Spirit, which is God's guarantee that we will be redeemed in a resurrection body and brought into His presence. It's what is called the filling of the Spirit.... So these are the days of the Holy Spirit. This is the age of the Holy Spirit.

What does 2 Corinthians say is going to happen before the Antichrist is revealed? The restrainer is going to be removed. You see, the Holy Spirit resident within the Church is the restrainer. So when you remove the restrainer, you also have to remove the containers in which He dwells, i.e., you and me. So, you see, it was a miracle the way the Church began; it's going to be another miracle the way it departs. And that is when the Holy Spirit resident in the Church is taken out, and we with Him.

Lindsey further brings into focus the change that will take place for mankind in that twinkling of an eye.

God does not mix His program for the Church with His program for Israel ... in the Book of Revelation in the first three chapters, the Church is mentioned by name 19 times. From chapter 4 through half of chapter 19, the Church is not mentioned once by name. That is no oversight; the Holy Spirit knows better. The Holy Spirit does not mention them (the Church) because chapters 4 through 19 talk about the judgment of the earth and the spotlight is once again on Israel.

I believe the next intervention of God into human history will be that time when Jesus says, "Come up here!" And only believers will understand what the noise meant. The world will hear some noise, but they won't understand it. Then suddenly, all over the world, people will disappear .... I believe God is going to do it just like that in order to shake them up and let them know that something dramatic has happened. If God is going to remove His ambassadors, you can expect there will be some repercussions that will shake people up and I really believe that when every living believer is snatched out, there's going to be planes crashing, cars crashing; there's going to be all kinds of weird things happening because God wants to shake up the world and let them know that something supernatural has intervened.

Dr. Charles Stanley, in dealing with the imminency of Christ's return, recently said:

Jesus said "I don't know when I'm coming back ... not even the angels in heaven know; only my Father knows." Matthew 24:27 and Matthew 24:36-41 ... remind us of His warnings. He's coming without a warning; He's coming instantly without a warning. The skies are going to break open. The shout, the sound of a trumpet. And I believe that only believers are going to hear and only believers are going to know what is taking place.

Stanley then punctuates the message about Christ's imminent return with words starkly relevant to the time in which we live.

I wonder how many of us really do watch, wait, look forward to, think that at any moment Jesus Christ could come. There's not a single thing that has to be done before Jesus comes. There are some things that have to be done before He comes a second time back to earth to judge this earth to set up His millennial reign - there are some things that are going to take place. That's why, when He talks about the signs in Matthew 24, He is talking about His second coming to earth. There are no signs about the rapture, except this. If there are evidences, scriptural signs of His coming the second time, what should that say to you and me today? ... If there are evidences of Christ's second coming, if things are happening in the world about us that are very evidently signs mentioned in the Scripture, what should that say to us about the rapture? Close! How close? I don't have any earthly idea and you know what? Nowhere in the Bible does it say, "You'd better be checking your clock, checking your calendar, checking the time." What does it say? Just be ready. I don't have to worry about when it's going to happen. All I have to do is be ready.

Although there are many signs given to warn the nation Israel that Jacob's trouble or the Great Tribulation is upon them - signs that point directly to Jesus Christ the Messiah's return to Planet Earth in power and great glory - no such signals are given Christ's bride, the Church. Dr. David Jeremiah says regarding this fact:

There is not one single statement to warn the Christian of future tribulation or to help them get ready for it. Not one single statement. There are all kinds of statements about the kinds of problems we have now. The Bible says, "They that live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." But can you believe that the God who would warn us against false teachers and false prophets and would warn us against the serious things that will come upon this world in the future, if He knew that His church was going to face judgment in the tribulation period, is it possible that God, who gave us this Book to prepare us for things to come, would leave out any encouragement or challenge or information to help us to know how to deal with the tribulation we were going to experience? I just want to tell you again there is not one single statement in any of the epistles directed to the Church as to how they are to endure or experience the Tribulation.

There is only one reason for that: We aren't going to be here. Some people ask me,- "What difference does it make whether you believe in the pre, the mid, the post, the pan, or whatever; do you believe that Jesus Christ is coming back? Do you believe He could come [right now]? Are you sure? [If you do], then I want to tell you that you are ... pretribulational. If you say you believe [Jesus can come back right now] ... the only way you can say that, even if you don't understand what's involved in it, is if you are pretribulational.

You see, if He doesn't come back for the rapture until seven years, He can't come back tonight. Can He? If He doesn't come back for the rapture until three and a half years of the Tribulation period, He can't come back for at least three and a half years. The only doctrine in the Bible which is historically proven from the beginning all the way through is the doctrine of the imminency of Jesus Christ. Imminency means He can come back at any time. And one of the reasons I believe so strongly in the pre-tribulational rapture view from the Scripture that it is the only view that is consistent with the imminent return of Jesus Christ. The Bible clearly teaches from almost every perspective that the Christian waits in hope of the return of Christ, that we are to constantly be watching for His return, that He could come [right now] .... If He can't come until seven years of tribulation have happened on this earth, there is no such thing as an imminent return of Christ.'

Dr. Renauld Showers, professor for the Institute of Biblical Studies and author of Maranatha, Our Lord Come, states:

The Bible makes it clear that nobody living on Planet Earth knows exactly when the Lord Jesus will come for His bride, the Church. It's an imminent event. It could happen at any moment. In fact, it could even happen today! ... Paul tells us in I Thessalonians 4 when Jesus comes for His bride, the Church, He will not come all the way down to Planet Earth where His bride is living. He will stop outside the Earth in the air and wait there. And then His bride, the Church, will come out and meet Him.

After the Jewish bride would come out of her home with her bridesmaids and meet her bridegroom and his male escorts, now the enlarged wedding party would have a return torchlight procession to the groom's father's house. By analogy, after Jesus has caught up His bride the Church from the earth to meet Him in the air, we are convinced in light of this passage in John 14 that He will return with His bride from the air above the earth back to His Father's house in heaven to begin living in the living accommodations He has prepared there.'

What Difference Does Belief in Christ's -Imminent Return Make, Anyway?

God's Word says that the time of Christ's return will be like it was in the days of Noah., Although there will be gross immorality, violence, etc., it will nonetheless be business as usual for industry, commerce, society, and all other human activity. Again, God's Word warns Christians to not be caught up in the flow of worldly pursuits to the extent their hearts and minds are diverted from their thoughts of their real home, the eternal, heavenly city where the Father dwells. It is sadly unfortunate that most Christians have their noses so down on the earthly grindstone that they never think to look up toward their hope from Heaven. It seems quite obvious from the way many Christians live today that a significant portion of Christ's body, His bride, the Church, disregards the commandment of Jesus, their bridegroom: "Watch ye, therefore; for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at evening, or at cockcrow, or in the morning; Lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:35- 37).

Peter LaLonde summed up the importance of living in expectancy of Christ's imminent return. The Lord could come at any moment. There is nothing that has to precede [His coming].... We have to be ready and living and expectant at all times.... Some people say why study prophecy, why study all this stuff? ... Why get on all this rapture stuff? ... The fact of the matter is, when the disciples came to Jesus and said, "What will be the sign of thy coming and of the end of this age?" He gave them great detail. He didn't say, "Don't worry about it. If I come, I come." He gave them great detail. We are to be expectant at all times.

What we see now in the world today are signs of the second coming of Christ, which is seven years after the rapture. And if those signs are beginning to come to pass, how much closer the rapture must be! So that gives us a sense of urgency. [The rapture] has always been imminent since the time of Christ and we are to be excited and expectant because in a moment - if we as Christians could come to grips with this - in a moment we will be in the presence of our Lord forever. How it would transform our lives!

Dr. John Walvoord, past president of Dallas Theological Seminary, and one of the world's preeminent biblical prophecy scholars, whose chapter titled "Why We Watch" appears in this volume, said about the imminent rapture of the church: "I've been teaching prophecy for more than 50 years on the seminary level. It's a very precious truth and a very practical one, but it's more than just a doctrine to me. The idea of being able to see Christ - perhaps any day - face to face, is an amazing, electrifying anticipation. And that's what the Bible teaches, and I believe that's what God wants us to realize and hope for. And so as I am dealing with this subject, perhaps from a theological, biblical standpoint, it is also from the standpoint that if you really love Christ, you are going to love His appearing. And this is going to be a precious truth to you." I I Indeed, the scriptural text is abundant within God's Holy Word that the hope of Christ's imminent return to rapture all believers to himself is not pie in the sky, in the sweet by and by fantasy, but precious truth of the coming great escape from a time of hell on earth.

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Preterist
[quote name='benny balerio' date='Dec 31 2006, 11:18 PM' post='97355']
When Millions Vanish
by William T. James

I believe literally billions of people around the world will suffer shocks similar to those depicted above, or will awaken to find they live in a world phenomenally different than the one they knew when they went to bed the night before.

Dr. William Yogt, in The Road to Civilization, wrote: "The handwriting on the wall of five continents now tells us that the Day of Judgment is at hand."

Dr. Raymond.B. Fosdick, president of the Rockefeller Foundation, said, "To many ears comes the sound of the tramp of doom. Time is short."

H.G. Wells declared before he died, "This world is at the end of its tether. The end of everything we call life is close at hand."

Dr. Nicholas Murray Butler, ex-president of Columbia University, said, "The end cannot be far distant."'

Those rearrangements will ultimately eventuate in what Jesus himself called the Great Tribulation, a time of trouble unprecedented in human history.

Jesus Christ, who is the Living Word (John 1: 1, 14), inspired the apostle Paul to write, "Behold, I show you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Cor. 15:51-52;KJV).

God, the Holy Spirit, further wrote through Paul, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first; Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore, comfort one another with these words" (I Thess. 4:16-18).

That this will be an electrifying moment for the child of God is perhaps the understatement of understatements! God's Word promises that the body of each believer in Jesus Christ who is alive at the time this indescribably momentous event takes place will be converted in "the twinkling of an eye" from a body that is in the process of decay leading toward death into a body eternally indestructible and beautiful beyond imagination.

The apostle Paul writes through inspiration: "For this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 0 death, where is thy sting? 0 grave, where is thy victory?" (I Cor. 15: 53-54).

"Let not your heart be troubled; ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself, that where I am, there ye may be also. And where I go ye know, and the way ye know" (John 14:1-3).

Has the book Daniel was told would be sealed up until the end now been opened for examination? If so, do the new truths unveiled through eschatological methods as men and women of God are infused with understanding by the Holy Spirit make clear the mystery that Paul wrote about in I Corinthians 15:51-52 when he said, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye"? Does any new understanding give credence to any of the several rapture theories?

This book's intention is to explore the many aspects and effects of that coming moment from the spiritually based perspective that the rapture will take place before the time known as Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7).

While many true believers are firmly convinced that Christians who are alive at the end of the Church Age will go into the Great Tribulation called Jacob's trouble by Jeremiah the prophet, we who are also true Christians who believe that Christ himself will keep us from the very hour of temptation (Rev. 3: 10) by calling us to himself in the air above the earth (I Cor. 15:51-58) are accused of having "Star Trek" mentality.

And in his commentary on Daniel, McGee continues: "Scripture clearly states that at the rapture those 'which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him' (I Thess. 4:14). Only, 'the dead in Christ shall rise first' (1 Thess. 4:16). We are in Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit which began on the day of Pentecost and will end at the Rapture.

Martin Luther said, "Let us not think that the coming of Christ is far off."

The Scripture says to Christians, "Because you have kept the word of my patience, I will keep you from that hour of trial, temptation, tribulation, that will come upon the whole world to try them that dwell on the earth."

Therefore, we see in Scripture that the Bible says that Christ will come for His saints before the beginning of the Tribulation and take all believing Christians up to be with Him in heaven. Spoken of in I Thessalonians 4:16, "The Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, the voice of the archangel, the trump of God; the dead in Christ shall rise first. We who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with Him in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Paul expands on this a little bit in I Corinthians 15, saying to the Corinthians, "Behold, I show you a mystery," something you could not figure out just by Aristotilian syllogism. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump; the trumpet shall sound, the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Dr. Dwight Pentecost, in his masterful work, Things to Come, .addresses the fact that God's prophetic Word points absolutely to the any-moment coming of Jesus Christ to fulfill His promise of John 14. This truth is termed the doctrine of imminence.

The apostle Paul tells in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 that there will come a startling change in the moral order for the end-time generation of mankind: "Only he who now hindereth will continue to hinder until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that wicked one be revealed."

What does 2 Corinthians say is going to happen before the Antichrist is revealed? The restrainer is going to be removed. You see, the Holy Spirit resident within the Church is the restrainer. So when you remove the restrainer, you also have to remove the containers in which He dwells, i.e., you and me. So, you see, it was a miracle the way the Church began; it's going to be another miracle the way it departs. And that is when the Holy Spirit resident in the Church is taken out, and we with Him.

God does not mix His program for the Church with His program for Israel ... in the Book of Revelation in the first three chapters, the Church is mentioned by name 19 times. From chapter 4 through half of chapter 19, the Church is not mentioned once by name. That is no oversight; the Holy Spirit knows better. The Holy Spirit does not mention them (the Church) because chapters 4 through 19 talk about the judgment of the earth and the spotlight is once again on Israel.

I believe the next intervention of God into human history will be that time when Jesus says, "Come up here!" And only believers will understand what the noise meant. The world will hear some noise, but they won't understand it. Then suddenly, all over the world, people will disappear

Jesus said "I don't know when I'm coming back ... not even the angels in heaven know; only my Father knows." Matthew 24:27 and Matthew 24:36-41 ... remind us of His warnings. He's coming without a warning; Stanley then punctuates the message about Christ's imminent return with words starkly relevant to the time in which we live.

Although there are many signs given to warn the nation Israel that Jacob's trouble or the Great Tribulation is upon them - signs that point directly to Jesus Christ the Messiah's return to Planet Earth in power and great glory - no such signals are given Christ's bride, the Church. Dr. David Jeremiah says regarding this fact:

There is not one single statement to warn the Christian of future tribulation or to help them get ready for it. Not one single statement. There are all kinds of statements about the kinds of problems we have now. The Bible says, "They that live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution." But can you believe that the God who would warn us against false teachers and false prophets and would warn us against the serious things that will come upon this world in the future, if He knew that His church was going to face judgment in the tribulation period, is it possible that God, who gave us this Book to prepare us for things to come, would leave out any encouragement or challenge or information to help us to know how to deal with the tribulation we were going to experience? I just want to tell you again there is not one single statement in any of the epistles directed to the Church as to how they are to endure or experience the Tribulation.

What Difference Does Belief in Christ's -Imminent Return Make, Anyway?

"Watch ye, therefore; for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at evening, or at cockcrow, or in the morning; Lest, coming suddenly, he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch" (Mark 13:35- 37).

The fact of the matter is, when the disciples came to Jesus and said, "What will be the sign of thy coming and of the end of this age?" He gave them great detail. He didn't say, "Don't worry about it. If I come, I come." He gave them great detail. We are to be expectant at all times.

Indeed, the scriptural text is abundant within God's Holy Word that the hope of Christ's imminent return to rapture all believers to himself is not pie in the sky, in the sweet by and by fantasy, but precious truth of the coming great escape from a time of hell on earth.


BennyB--I do not share your enthusiasm over the writings you posted. Without exception, the verses cited have been completely taken out of context and the significance of them to those who first heard them has been totally ignored.

1. Let's begin with the quotes from Drs. Yogt, Fosdick, and Butler as well as the statement by H. G. Wells. I find it extremely interesting that the same people who make such statements as these men made and those who believe them completely misinterpret and redefine similar statements made in the Scriptures by INSPIRED writers. Dr. Yogt says that "judgment is AT HAND." Dr. Fosdick says "the time is SHORT." H. G. Wells stated that "the end of everything we call life is close AT HAND." You and other pre-trib., premillennialists take these time statement words of these uninspired writers at their face value. At hand means at hand, and the time is short means the time is short. But how do you understand the following?

"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8)
"The end of ALL things is NEAR" (2 Peter 4:7)
"The Kingdom of heaven is AT HAND" (Mat. 3:2)
"The Kingdom of God is AT HAND" (Mk. 1:15)
"The God of peace will SOON crush Satan under YOUR feet" (Rom. 16:20)
"The Lord is NEAR" (Phl. 4:5)
". . . as YOU see the Day drawing NEAR" (Heb. 10:25)
"For yet in a VERY LITTLE WHILE, He who is COMING, will COME, and will NOT delay" (Heb. 10:37)
"He has appeared in THESE LAST TIMES for the sake of YOU" (1 Pet. 1:20)
". . . to show to His bond-servants the things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev. 1:1)
"The time is NEAR" (Rev. 1:3)
"I am coming QUICKLY" (Rev. 3:11)
". . . to show His bond-servants the things which must SHORTLY take place" (Rev. 22:6)
"Behold, I am coming QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:7)
"Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is NEAR" (Rev. 22:10)
"Behold, I am coming QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:12)
"Yes, I am coming QUICKLY" (Rev. 22:20)

Will you allow THOSE time statements made by Jesus Himself and His inspired writers to mean what they clearly mean just as you do the uninspired time statements made by the men you quoted?

2. What is the audience relevancy of the verses you provided? What is the context? Why were these words written? To whom were they written? What was going on in the lives of those first-century writers and readers that helps clarify the significance of those words? These are basic principles of sound Bible exegesis--principles sorely lacking in much of modern-day interpretations!

3. You are right that Christ inspired the Apostle Paul to write 1 Corinthians 15:51 and 52. But again, to whom is Paul writing and why? What is the context? These are REAL people being addressed here with real concerns and real struggles. The words must FIRST have direct import for THEM not US! It saddens me and also angers me that so much that is considered scholarly interpretation almost totally ignores the relevance of Scripture to the immediate audience who first heard the words or read the words--words that were written because of the trials and tribulations THEY were enduring. This is shameful and inexcusable from men who have studied God's words for many years. They should know better!

4. 1 Corinthians 15:51, 52--The context deals with the resurrection. There were those teaching against a resurrection and Paul is correcting this error. Christ is the firstfruits and then those "who are Christ's at His COMING--then comes the end." The end and His COMING are contemporaneous events. So if Peter was inspired to write "the end of ALL things is AT HAND" (at hand during his lifetime) and if you understand AT HAND in the same manner you take those words when written by such men as you quoted, then the end has already come and Jesus has already come--just as He promised. The confusion is in the meaning of the end. It is not the end of the world but the end of the AGE--the age of the old covenant, the end of the age of Judaism. There is NO end of the world prophesied.

5. Paul goes on to describe the nature of the resurrection body and then he describes the "mystery." Again, he is speaking to his contemporaries about things that were to happen to THEM. Notice the YOUs and the WEs. They are significant. "Behold, I tell YOU a mystery: WE (I, Paul, and you my fellow first-century saints) shall not all sleep (die), but WE (I, Paul and you my fellow first-century saints) shall be changed--in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet . . . ." Paul expected a first-hand experience of this event in his lifetime! It had to happen during a time in which some of THEM could not die! That could only happen in THEIR lifetimes.

6. 1 Thes. 4:16-18--Again, what is the context? Paul is writing to comfort his fellow believers about their sorrow over their departed loved ones. They will not miss out on Christ's coming--"God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus." "By the word of the Lord" indicates that this teaching came from Jesus Himself. When Paul says "WE who are alive and remain until the COMING of the Lord (remember "the coming of the Lord is AT HAND--James 5:8), he means himself and his fellow saints of that first-century time! Those of THEM who were still alive at His coming would not precede "those who are asleep." The Lord Himself was to descend (in their lifetimes), the dead would rise first, then WE (Paul and his contemporaries) who ARE ALIVE and REMAIN shall be caught up together with THEM in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus WE (Paul and his contemporaries) shall always be with the Lord. THEREFORE, comfort one another with THESE WORDS." What comfort were those words to them unless the meaning of those words applied directly to THEM? Paul goes on in Chapter 5 explaining to them why THEY should not be taken by surprise at Christ's coming for THEM. They knew the times and the seasons--Paul did not have to tell them anything further about them. They were not of darkness. The DAY would not overtake THEM. This clearly indicates that it was to directly affect them. THEY were to "watch and be sober." And again Paul says "comfort one another."

7. John 14--What is the context? To whom is Jesus speaking and why? These are basic questions the students of God's Word should ask. This is Bible Exegesis 101! Before Jesus predicts Peter's denial of Him, He answers Peter's question "Where are You going?" Jesus states--"Where I am going YOU cannot follow Me NOW, but YOU shall follow Me afterward." Clearly, Jesus is telling Peter about something that is going to directly impact him and his fellow believers. These words deeply troubled Jesus' disciples. He was going away to a place they could not THEN go. They were troubled, but Jesus comforts THEM with these words: "Let not YOUR heart be troubled . . . I go to prepare a place for YOU. And if I go to prepare a place for YOU, I will COME again and receive YOU unto Myself; that where I am, there YOU may be also. . . . I will not leave YOU orphans; I will COME to YOU." Note the following: "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but YOU will see Me." Notice also that Judas asks Jesus--"Lord, how is it that you are ABOUT TO MANIFEST Yourself to us and not to the world?" Does this have no relevance to us and believers since that time. Of course it does. They were the first-fruits, the first recipients. We are later partakers with them.

8. Jesus says "I am going away and COMING back to YOU (His disciples standing right there in front of Him!). And then He says--"And NOW I have told YOU before it COMES, that WHEN it comes to pass, YOU may believe." Even in Jesus' day the "ruler of this world" was coming. Let's go on to chapter 16 verse 16--Jesus clearly states "A LITTLE WHILE, and YOU will not see Me; and again a LITTLE WHILE, and YOU will see Me, because I go to the Father. Both "little whiles" mean the same thing! It was THEIR sorrow that was to be turned to joy. When? "Therefore YOU now have sorrow; but I will see YOU again and YOUR heart will rejoice." Jesus’ words are NO comfort to them if He meant to convey something in the far-distant future!

9. How would Jesus' disciples have understood these words spoken by Jesus Himself? Were they comforted because He was going to return after thousands of years had passed? No, He said He was returning to THEM! Sadly, most commentators completely ignore the significance of these words to THOSE disciples of Christ and make everything about US!

10. Concerning Daniel--Daniel was told to seal up prophecy; John was told NOT to seal up prophecy. When was this unsealing to take place? The Book of Revelation begins with John about to be shown the things which were to take place SHORTLY (Rev. 1:1). He is again told this in Revelation 22:10 just after He is told that God's angel has been sent to show His servants "the things which must SHORTLY take place." Then Jesus Himself says "Behold, I come QUICKLY!" Why is John told not to "seal up the words of the prophecy of this book?" Because "the time is AT HAND." John wrote the Apocalypse prior to AD70. I know you will disagree and take an AD95 dating, but even so, the time was still AT HAND--THEN! And it was, therefore, THEY who were to be kept from the "hour of temptation" (Rev. 3:10). "He who is Holy" said to the actual, physical, first-century Church in Philadelphia--"I also will keep YOU from the hour of trial which is ABOUT TO COME upon the whole world . . . .BEHOLD, I AM COMING QUICKLY." WE are not directly in mind here!

11. It is interesting that you quote Martin Luther (1483-1546). The Lord's coming was not far distant from his time, and it's not far distant from our time, etc., etc., etc.? It cannot be NOT far distant from Martin Luther's generation and not far distant from OURS as well!

12. Dwight Pentecost's appeal to the manmade "doctrine of imminence" does not even consider the NT inspired writers' uses of time statements--SOON, AT HAND, ABOUT TO, NEAR, SHORTLY, QUICKLY, etc. Those words meant exactly what they were intended to mean by the writers, things we understand in our everyday lives! Imminency loses all of its significance in the span of thousands of years! Imminency carries with it a reasonable amount of passage of time!

13. 1 Thes. 2:19--"For what is OUR hope (Paul speaking about himself and the Thessalonians), or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Is it not even YOU in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at His COMING?" This is a real expectancy on Paul's part of Christ's soon return to THEM! Furthermore, who was to suffer persecution (Matthew 24)? "WE (Paul and his fellow first-century saints) would suffer TRIBULATION" (1 Thes. 3:4). Notice Paul's prayer for the church of Thessalonica--that "He may establish YOUR hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ with His saints" (3:13). And "NOW may the God of peace Himself sanctify YOU (first-century saints) completely; and may YOUR whole spirit, soul, and BODY be preserved blameless at the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ" (5:232) Spirit, soul, body indicate a living being--THEY would be alive at the COMING of Christ! Do not saints today suffer persecution. Of course they do–but it is not THAT persecution. Have not saints throughout history suffered persecution. Of course they have. But it was not THAT persecution.

14. 2 Thes. 2--Again, the context involves Paul and his fellow first-century saints. He is addressing his "brethren" concerning the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR (Paul and his contemporary saints) gathering together to Him." Apparently some had been wrongly teaching that Christ had already come--why would they wrongly think that except that it was believed that He would come in THEIR lifetimes? Their being wrong about His coming already does NOT negate His COMING to THEM! Their timing was off, but NOT by thousands of years! Paul is correcting that wrong teaching NOT be saying Christ will come back after thousands of years, but that in their lifetimes the "man of sin" had to first be revealed. THEY knew who was restraining. The "mystery of lawlessness" was ALREADY at work and "only he who NOW (in their day) restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way." Clearly, these were elements and personages of THEIR day not ours or any other day!

15. God does not mix His program for Israel and the Church? Is not the Church considered "true Israel?" Is not the Church made up of spiritual Jews who have been circumcised in their hearts as predicted by Jeremiah in chapter 31. "I will make a NEW covenant WITH the House of Israel and WITH the House of Judah . . . not like the covenant which I made with their fathers . . . which THEY broke." His true people were to be those upon whose hearts and minds He wrote His laws--an everlasting covenant in which He would do good to them forever. Note Hebrews 8 which clearly teaches that the old covenant was THEN becoming OBSOLETE and THEN READY to VANISH AWAY. The first was made old by the coming of the new. Who are Jews according to Paul? (Romans 2). Notice what he says about those Jews who were boasting in their physical connection to Abraham and in the law. "Indeed you who are CALLED A JEW, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God” . . . steal, commit adultery, rob temples, and "the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you." Although physically circumcised, they were lawbreakers. Now note--"He is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly (this includes the Jews of our day!), nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but HE is a JEW who is one INWARDLY; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit." Later Paul teaches that Abraham, to whom those who were physical Jews appealed as their claim to be the people of God, was justified BEFORE he was circumcised. He was made righteous through FAITH alone. All true "JEWS" are made righteous through faith and are those circumcised in their HEARTS--inwardly! In Jesus' words to the churches (Rev. 2:9 and 3:9) He clearly demonstrates that there are Jews who call themselves Jews but ARE NOT--they are liars and of the synagogue of Satan. All Jews not circumcised in their hearts and part of the body of Christ and part of His Church are liars and part of the synagogue of Satan. They are NOT Jews! Israel TODAY is made up of those who falsely claim relationship with God--they are uncircumcised in their hearts and not true JEWS! Like all unbelievers, they need the LORD Jesus Christ! We do them a great injustice by considering them the people of God when we need to be witnessing to them about their Messiah Who has come and about their need to become JEWS!

16. The churches of Revelation are real, actual, first-century churches who are told to persevere--why? Because tribulation was about to come upon them. Revelation 2:8 states--"Do not fear any of those things which YOU are ABOUT TO SUFFER. Indeed, the devil is ABOUT TO THROW some of you into prison, that YOU will have tribulation ten days" (Church in first-century Smyrna). To those of the Church in Pergamos who held to the "doctrine of Balaam" and those who held to the "doctrine of the Nicolaitans," Jesus said: "Repent, or else I am ABOUT TO COME to you QUICKLY." They didn't; and He came! To those of the Church of Thyatira who did not hold to the doctrine of Jezebel, He said, "[YOU, of the first-century Church of Thyatira] hold fast what you have TILL I COME." How could they “hold fast” for thousands of years? To the first-century Church in Philadelphia he said--"Behold, I am COMING QUICKLY!" Then follows the time of Jacob's trouble--the time predicted by Jesus in Matthew 23 which was to come upon those first-century Jews who were guilty of "ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth." "Behold, YOUR house is left unto YOU desolate!" It was during this time also that these same Jews of Matthew 23 who were to "fill up . . . the measure of THEIR fathers' guilt (those serpents, brood of vipers, blind guides, etc.) killed and crucified the saints of God, scourged them in THEIR synagogues, and persecuted them from city to city" (Mat. 23:32-34). This all took place during the time leading up to the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem by Titus and the Roman armies! That is the timing of the entire Book of Revelation!

17. When JOHN is told "Come up here!" (Rev. 4), HE is the one who was taken up to be shown the things which must take place after this (in his day)! Taking this to mean the Church is ridiculous and shameful exegesis by those who should know better! Notice what follows after JOHN heard those words! "IMMEDIATELY, I (JOHN) was in the Spirit." Chapter 5--"I (JOHN) saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll . . . ." This is clearly something that happened specifically to JOHN NOT to the Church. Where is the Church here? What nonsense! This is clearly eisegesis on the part of today’s “scholars.”

18. Matthew 24--Have you ever bothered to count the number of YOUs in this passage. Jesus in talking directly to His first-century disciples standing right there in front of Him about things that were to happen to THEM. YOU, YOU, YOU. YOU will be killed, YOU will be hated, YOU will suffer tribulation, YOU will see the abomination of desolation. There is no passage in the Word of God whose context and audience relevancy is so blatantly and inexcusably ignored as this one! What did those words mean to Jesus' disciples who asked Him the questions? Furthermore, just because Jesus said He did not know the "day" or the "hour" does not mean He did not know the general time frame! He clearly gave it to those who will see--"THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place" (Mat. 24:34). Even you acknowledge that "He gave THEM great detail." Why do you not then clearly then see that He was addressing THEM (YOU, YOU, YOU) when He gave those great details?

19. "The coming great escape" has already happened! Jesus clearly promised that rescue and escape to His first-century saints--not to US!

Having been a pre-trib., pre-mil. dispensationalist for twenty years, I understand the arguments and the positions. I was blinded to the truth by NOT studying for myself and by NOT taking God’s Word in its context and doing the hard work of proper exegesis. I think you might agree that most people in the pews of today’s “churches” do not have a clue why they believe what they believe and could not prove any of it to save their own lives. They believe it because those whom they consider teachers and experts believe it. We must study and think for ourselves lest we be led into error!

In Christ, Preterist

dennis mann
Zechariah 14;2,4

and Zech 14;16

am i supposed to worship in jerusalem? and keep the feast of tabernacles (booths)?

when is the fulfillment of these verses?
George
QUOTE(benny balerio @ Dec 31 2006, 08:18 PM) [snapback]97355[/snapback]

When Millions Vanish
by William T. James



I I Indeed, the scriptural text is abundant within God's Holy Word that the hope of Christ's imminent return to rapture all believers to himself is not pie in the sky, in the sweet by and by fantasy, but precious truth of the coming great escape from a time of hell on earth.

..........................................benny cool.gif


There is that word imminent again. Soon to happen hanging over you like a threat ready to fall. How does that equate? Since the whole rapture thing is the gospel of Satan and the masses were destined to flock to it, Just like they always have. It really doesn't matter. Does it?
excubitor
QUOTE(benny balerio @ Jan 1 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]97355[/snapback]

Dr. Charles Stanley, in dealing with the imminency of Christ's return, recently said:

Jesus said "I don't know when I'm coming back ... not even the angels in heaven know; only my Father knows." Matthew 24:27 and Matthew 24:36-41 ... remind us of His warnings. He's coming without a warning; He's coming instantly without a warning. The skies are going to break open. The shout, the sound of a trumpet. I believe that only believers are going to hear and only believers are going to know what is taking place


As a person who frames his own words rather than cutting and pasting other writers words it is impossible for me to deal with the incredible volume of error contained in this post of yours written by William T James. So I will have to satisfy myself with the most blatant of errors which I noticed.

The bolded statement is so blatantly at odds with common sense and scripture as to stagger belief.
How is it possible for the skies to break open and nobody except believers be aware of it.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So his coming WILL NOT be in secret. It will come with lightning. The whole point of this passage is to assure the reader that the second coming will not be secret (known by only a few "believers") but will be witnessed by everybody with lightning and loud trumpets. So then we get clowns and false teachers come along and say that nobody will be able to see the lightning or hear the loud trumpets except "believers".

Who believes this stuff? Who gives credence to such outrageous nonsense. Lightning which cannot be seen is an example of nonsense. Trumpets which cannot be heard is an example of nonsense. Sky breaking open with nobody witnessing it is another example of nonsense.

Apart from being nonsense it is also unscriptural because the passage specifically states that ALL the tribes of the earth will witness these events.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Please justify these beliefs of yours Benny by explaining what Matt 24:30 means in your scenario.
Preterist
QUOTE(excubitor @ Jan 7 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]98050[/snapback]

QUOTE(benny balerio @ Jan 1 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]97355[/snapback]

Dr. Charles Stanley, in dealing with the imminency of Christ's return, recently said:

Jesus said "I don't know when I'm coming back ... not even the angels in heaven know; only my Father knows." Matthew 24:27 and Matthew 24:36-41 ... remind us of His warnings. He's coming without a warning; He's coming instantly without a warning. The skies are going to break open. The shout, the sound of a trumpet. [b] I believe that only believers are going to hear and only believers are going to know what is taking place



As a person who frames his own words rather than cutting and pasting other writers words it is impossible for me to deal with the incredible volume of error contained in this post of yours written by William T James. So I will have to satisfy myself with the most blatant of errors which I noticed.

The bolded statement is so blatantly at odds with common sense and scripture as to stagger belief.
How is it possible for the skies to break open and nobody except believers be aware of it.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So his coming WILL NOT be in secret. It will come with lightning. The whole point of this passage is to assure the reader that the second coming will not be secret (known by only a few "believers") but will be witnessed by everybody with lightning and loud trumpets. So then we get clowns and false teachers come along and say that nobody will be able to see the lightning or hear the loud trumpets except "believers".

Who believes this stuff? Who gives credence to such outrageous nonsense. Lightning which cannot be seen is an example of nonsense. Trumpets which cannot be heard is an example of nonsense. Sky breaking open with nobody witnessing it is another example of nonsense.

Apart from being nonsense it is also unscriptural because the passage specifically states that ALL the tribes of the earth will witness these events.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Please justify these beliefs of yours Benny by explaining what Matt 24:30 means in your scenario.
[/b]

Excubitor: I know you asked this of Benny, but if you don't mind, I would like to add my two-cents' worth. First of all, to be honest with the Scriptures, the student of God's Word must place Matthew 24:30 within the time frame clearly given in verse 34. Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you, THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." That includes verse 30.

To the western mind, verse 30 appears to be a visible and physical event. However, the student of the Word who is familiar with the Hebrew mind and OT culture, can clearly understand, as Jesus' disciples right there with Him would have understood, that this is figurative apocalyptic language. God's coming in judgment upon a nation or a people was often described with the use of heavenly bodies. For example:

God's judgment on Egypt is described in Ezekiel 32:7-8

When I cover the heavens, and make its stars dark;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
And the moon shall not give her light.
All the bright lights of the heavens I will make dark over you.
And bring darkness upon your land.

God's judgment on Babylon is described in Isaiah 13:9, 10, 13

Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD comes,
Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger,
To lay the land desolate;
And He will destroy sinners from it.
For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not give light;
The sun will be darkened in its going forth,
And the moon will not cause its light to shine. . . .
Therefore I will shake the heavens,
And the earth will move out of her place,
In the wrath of the Lord of hosts
And in the day of His fierce anger.

God's judgment on Edom is described in Isaiah 34:4-5

All the host of heaven shall be dissolved,
And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;
All their host shall fall down
As the leaf falls from the vine,
And as fruit falling from a fig tree.

When did any of these things actually happen in the OT days? When were the host of heaven dissolved? When were the heavens rolled up like a scroll? When did all their host fall down? When was the earth move out of her place? This is figurative language employed to described God's wrath and judgment. It is the same type of language which is used in Matthew 24:27-30. Notice the use of the small but significant word "AS" in verse 27. This does not say that Jesus would come just as or exactly like lightning out of the east and shining onto the west. Again, this is figurative language. Being Jews, Jesus' disciples would clearly have understood that Jesus was predicting judgment upon the nation of Israel in Matthew 24.! It is we who stumble over these words by trying to make something literal that is meant to be figurative!

Furthermore, I believe that the expression "then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" is misunderstood by the ambiguousness of the English wording. This can very easily and I believe accurately be taken to say: Then will appear the SIGN (not the Son of Man but His SIGN) of the Son of Man [who is] in heaven. In other words, the Son of Man is in heaven--it is His sign that appears. I do not believe that this verse states that Jesus will appear or that His sign will appear IN HEAVEN or in the sky as is often taught. What was this sign? Where did the Jews believe God dwelt? What did they believe established their claim to being His people? Was it not the Temple and the magnificent city of Jerusalem? When Titus and his armies completely destroyed the city and the temple ca. AD70, the Jews recognized the judgment of God--as did the entire world. Remember that this had happened to their nation before!

As for the tribes of the earth, this is a very Jewish expression. Their temple and city destroyed, many of them killed and taken into captivity, the unrepentant Jews (the tribes of the earth) "saw" the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." Jesus had warned them in Matthew 23--"Behold, you house is left unto YOU desolate." Jesus further clarified this to His disciples when He told them that not one stone would be left one upon another. Notice also in Matthew 26:64 that Jesus tells the Jewish leadership, most directly, Caiaphas--"YOU [Caiaphas] will "SEE" the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." The tribes of the earth would see, the first-century, pre-AD70 high priest [Caiaphas] and the Jewish leadership were to "SEE" Him "coming on the clouds of heaven." Did they actually see Him with their physical eyes coming on clouds? No! Just as those OT disobedient, law-breaking, idolatrous, adulterous Jews "saw" God's coming in judgment in the destruction of Solomon's temple and their city, these first-century Jews, soundly and vehemently condemned by Jesus in Matthew 23, saw the sign of His coming--the destruction of their city and temple, the end of their entire system of worship, the end of their visible and enviable claim to be seen as the people of their God. They MOURNED because of it.

Preterist
Spirit Filled One
<Preterist said>
"Excubitor: I know you asked this of Benny, but if you don't mind, I would like to add my two-cents' worth. First of all, to be honest with the Scriptures, the student of God's Word must place Matthew 24:30 within the time frame clearly given in verse 34. Jesus said, "Assuredly, I say to you, THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." That includes verse 30.>
<end quote>

The "generation" that Jesus speaks of frequently is obvious:
Matthew 11:16
“But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions,
Matthew 12:39
But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.
Matthew 12:42
The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.
Matthew 12:45
Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign shall be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.”
Mark 8:38
For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him the Son of Man also will be ashamed when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”
Philippians 2:15
that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,

Can you truly not see that in ALL of these scripture verses, the "generation" that is spoken of is not the group of people that is physically at hand and present alone, but is in fact describing the generation of
Non-believers that Messiah had first come to declare himself to.
Christ tells us in the parable of the great wedding feast in Matt 22 ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. Therefore go into the highways, and as many as you find, invite to the wedding.’

This is a picture of "this generation" that would not respond to the Gospel of Christ and the gentiles that did
respond. Open your eyes in the Spirit and see!


<preterist said>
"Furthermore, I believe that the expression "then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven" is misunderstood by the ambiguousness of the English wording. This can very easily and I believe accurately be taken to say: Then will appear the SIGN (not the Son of Man but His SIGN) of the Son of Man [who is] in heaven. In other words, the Son of Man is in heaven--it is His sign that appears. I do not believe that this verse states that Jesus will appear or that His sign will appear IN HEAVEN or in the sky as is often taught.
<end quote>

Revelation 1:7
Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Do these words mean nothing? Are they meaning that they will see Him on a Post-card or a candy wrapper?
NO!! they mean that EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM!!

I really must say to you Presterist, your hearing and your sight are so very closed and I pray that the Lord would open them that you may see.

In Christ,
Chris

Can you truly not see that in ALL of these scripture verses, the "generation" that is spoken of is not the group of people that is physically at hand and present alone, but is in fact describing the generation of
Non-believers that Messiah had first come to declare himself to.

And I should clarify that it is the WHOLE generation of unbelievers from the time of Christ to the time of Judgement.
excubitor
Very good answer Chris. Thanks for that.

Preterist, What you are saying therefore is that we cannot read the Bible plainly and believe its clear words because we have western minds and do not perceive the Jewishness of the figurative language and symbolism of the Bible. You claim that the Bible cannot be clearly understood by us because it is ambiguous in English.

I deny your testimony. I believe the scripture as truth. I read them plainly and believe what they actually say.
I believe that when Ezekiel 32:7-8 says that the moon shall not give her light
and when Isaiah 13:9, 10, 13 says that the heavens will shake
and when Isaiah 34:4-5 says that the stars will fall from heaven
that these things are unfulfilled prophecies that will actually happen exactly as described.

You contend that these prophecies have actually happened in some allegorical way and the heavens will not actually shake and the stars will not actually fall from heaven and the moon will not actually fail to give its light. This is a complete denial of scripture.

The fact that these events had not yet transpired at the time of Christ is evidenced by the fact that he also prophecied them
Matt 24: 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
These events are prophecied to occur immediately AFTER the tribulation and BEFORE.
In answer to your other points
"27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
The use of the word 'AS' indicates that the coming of the Son of man will not necessarily be lightning but that it will be very much like lightening. AS lightning demonstrates that the coming of the Son of Man will be highly visible, very bright and lighting up the whole sky just AS lightning is highly visible very bright and lights up the sky.
You said
QUOTE
--"YOU [Caiaphas] will "SEE" the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." The tribes of the earth would see, the first-century, pre-AD70 high priest [Caiaphas] and the Jewish leadership were to "SEE" Him "coming on the clouds of heaven." Did they actually see Him with their physical eyes coming on clouds? No!


Here is an important point to note that it is essential to use the KJV bible. The supposed archaic language yields important insight. Notice the words you and ye in the passage below.
Matt 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

The words "you" and "ye" are second person plural indicating that Christ was referring not to Caiphus specifically but to men in general. In fact as spiritfilledone aptly pointed out he was speaking to the evil and adulterous generation. The same evil and adulterous generation of Christs day which would remain evil and adulterous until the day of the Lord. If Christ was directing his words specifically to Caiphus he would have used the second person singular of thee and it would have read "Hereafter shall thee see the Son of man coming in the clouds"

Unfortunately the modern translations lose this subtle distinction by using the word "you" to describe both singular and plural forms of the second person pronoun.

To argue that the words "Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" is figurative language describing Vespasian and Titus sacking Jerusalem and the Temple is not just strange it is patently absurd and a complete denial of scripture.
dennis mann
Matthew 26;64 amplified bible

my bible refers me to Daniel 7;13
"on the clouds of heaven came One like the Son of man, and he came to the Ancient of days, and was presented before Him.
verse 14
"there was given Him (the messiah) dominion and glory and kingdom, that all peoples, nations should serve Him (Jesus)"

the fulfillment of verse 14 must be in the future.



and Psalm 110;1

see heb 12;2
col 3;1


1 Cor 15;25
"For Christ must be King and reign until He has put all [His] enemies under His feet."
So, ....Christ is King now, but He has not put all His enemies under His feet yet.

Satan is enemy number 1

Connie
QUOTE(excubitor @ Jan 7 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]98050[/snapback]

QUOTE(benny balerio @ Jan 1 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]97355[/snapback]

Dr. Charles Stanley, in dealing with the imminency of Christ's return, recently said:

Jesus said "I don't know when I'm coming back ... not even the angels in heaven know; only my Father knows." Matthew 24:27 and Matthew 24:36-41 ... remind us of His warnings. He's coming without a warning; He's coming instantly without a warning. The skies are going to break open. The shout, the sound of a trumpet. I believe that only believers are going to hear and only believers are going to know what is taking place


As a person who frames his own words rather than cutting and pasting other writers words it is impossible for me to deal with the incredible volume of error contained in this post of yours written by William T James. So I will have to satisfy myself with the most blatant of errors which I noticed.

The bolded statement is so blatantly at odds with common sense and scripture as to stagger belief.
How is it possible for the skies to break open and nobody except believers be aware of it.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So his coming WILL NOT be in secret. It will come with lightning. The whole point of this passage is to assure the reader that the second coming will not be secret (known by only a few "believers") but will be witnessed by everybody with lightning and loud trumpets. So then we get clowns and false teachers come along and say that nobody will be able to see the lightning or hear the loud trumpets except "believers".

Who believes this stuff? Who gives credence to such outrageous nonsense. Lightning which cannot be seen is an example of nonsense. Trumpets which cannot be heard is an example of nonsense. Sky breaking open with nobody witnessing it is another example of nonsense.

Apart from being nonsense it is also unscriptural because the passage specifically states that ALL the tribes of the earth will witness these events.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Please justify these beliefs of yours Benny by explaining what Matt 24:30 means in your scenario.

Preterist
QUOTE(Connie @ Jan 23 2007, 11:49 PM) [snapback]99748[/snapback]

QUOTE(excubitor @ Jan 7 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]98050[/snapback]

QUOTE(benny balerio @ Jan 1 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]97355[/snapback]

Dr. Charles Stanley, in dealing with the imminency of Christ's return, recently said:

Jesus said "I don't know when I'm coming back ... not even the angels in heaven know; only my Father knows." Matthew 24:27 and Matthew 24:36-41 ... remind us of His warnings. He's coming without a warning; He's coming instantly without a warning. The skies are going to break open. The shout, the sound of a trumpet. [b] I believe that only believers are going to hear and only believers are going to know what is taking place



As a person who frames his own words rather than cutting and pasting other writers words it is impossible for me to deal with the incredible volume of error contained in this post of yours written by William T James. So I will have to satisfy myself with the most blatant of errors which I noticed.

The bolded statement is so blatantly at odds with common sense and scripture as to stagger belief.
How is it possible for the skies to break open and nobody except believers be aware of it.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So his coming WILL NOT be in secret. It will come with lightning. The whole point of this passage is to assure the reader that the second coming will not be secret (known by only a few "believers") but will be witnessed by everybody with lightning and loud trumpets. So then we get clowns and false teachers come along and say that nobody will be able to see the lightning or hear the loud trumpets except "believers".

Who believes this stuff? Who gives credence to such outrageous nonsense. Lightning which cannot be seen is an example of nonsense. Trumpets which cannot be heard is an example of nonsense. Sky breaking open with nobody witnessing it is another example of nonsense.

Apart from being nonsense it is also unscriptural because the passage specifically states that ALL the tribes of the earth will witness these events.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Please justify these beliefs of yours Benny by explaining what Matt 24:30 means in your scenario.

[/b]


First of all, these words in Matthew 24:30 were addressed specifically to Jesus' disciples there with Him clearly about things that were to happen to THEM. But I do agree that the lightning and trumpets are not secret. But even though this "lightning" and these "trumpets" are not secret, they are not literal. This is figurative language quite common in the Hebrew OT culture to describe God's judgment. We must read such passages with a Hebrew mindset and not our western mindset. Matthew 24:30 must be seen in light of Matthew 24:34--THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place." And that INCLUDES Matthew 24:30.

The things of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. All the tribes of the earth "saw" it just as they saw it when the Babylonians came upon them. In each case they mourned over their city and their Temple! Furthermore, Caiaphas is clearly told that HE would see Jesus "COMING ON THE CLOUDS." Those who pierced Him saw it! How much clearer can this be? Those actual people who "pierced Him" saw it!

Lightning and trumpets are symbols of those things present at the time of God's judgment upon nations and peoples. Compare Matthew 24:30 with Revelation 1:7. What is the time frame for both? They are the same! Matthew 24:30 happened in the "THIS generation" time frame. In other words, in that generation contemporaneous to Jesus and His disciples. Revelation 1:7 happened in the time of the "things which must SHORTLY take place" 1:1. (SHORTLY at the time of John's writing). Revelation 1:7 happened in the time of "those things which are written in it,, for the TIME IS NEAR (John 1:3--the time was near when John wrote these words!).

Consider the figurative language in Psalm 97:4. Should we take it literally?

CLOUDS and darkness surround Him [the Lord];
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
A FIRE goes before Him,
And burns up His enemies round about.
His LIGHTNINGS light the world.
The EARTH SEES and TREMBLES.
The MOUNTAINS MELT like wax at the presence of the Lord.


What about Psalm 77:11?--

The WATERS saw You, O God;
The WATERS saw You, they were afraid;
The DEPTHS also trembled.
The CLOUDS poured out water;
The SKIES sent out a sound;
Your ARROWS also flashed about.
The voice of Your THUNDER was in the WHIRLWIND;
The LIGHTNINGS lit up the world;
The EARTH trembled and shook.


There are many such passages as these. These are metaphors used by God through His prophets to express His judgment against His enemies. It is figurative and NOT to be taken literally. See Ezekiel 32:7-8; Isaiah 13:9-10; Isaiah 34:4-5; Amos 5:18; 8:9 for similar language to that in Matthew 24:30.

Speaking of Jesus--did a "sharp sword" go "out of His mouth" in Revelation 19:15? No! This, too, is figurative language reflective of His description as the Word of God (see Hebrews 4:12). In the same way, "the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" and following Him on "white horses" are also to be taken figuratively. This is figurative language used to describe the saints of God.

Did Christ have a literal sickle in His hand? (Revelation 14:14) Did He literally sit on a cloud with a sickle? (Revelation 14:15).

We cannot be good students of God's Word if we do not understand the different types of language found within its pages. Too many in the Church today cannot accept the expression "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 because they take literally and not figuratively verse 30. They, then, say--"see, that never happened, so "this generation" must mean something other than what it everywhere else in the NT means. However, if Matthew 24:30 is correctly understood figuratively (as totally justified by OT Scriptures particularly), then there is no problem understanding "this generation" in its normal, common, usual sense.

Preterist




Douggg
QUOTE(Preterist @ Jan 27 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]100025[/snapback]

QUOTE(Connie @ Jan 23 2007, 11:49 PM) [snapback]99748[/snapback]

QUOTE(excubitor @ Jan 7 2007, 05:18 PM) [snapback]98050[/snapback]

QUOTE(benny balerio @ Jan 1 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]97355[/snapback]

Dr. Charles Stanley, in dealing with the imminency of Christ's return, recently said:

Jesus said "I don't know when I'm coming back ... not even the angels in heaven know; only my Father knows." Matthew 24:27 and Matthew 24:36-41 ... remind us of His warnings. He's coming without a warning; He's coming instantly without a warning. The skies are going to break open. The shout, the sound of a trumpet. [b] I believe that only believers are going to hear and only believers are going to know what is taking place



As a person who frames his own words rather than cutting and pasting other writers words it is impossible for me to deal with the incredible volume of error contained in this post of yours written by William T James. So I will have to satisfy myself with the most blatant of errors which I noticed.

The bolded statement is so blatantly at odds with common sense and scripture as to stagger belief.
How is it possible for the skies to break open and nobody except believers be aware of it.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

So his coming WILL NOT be in secret. It will come with lightning. The whole point of this passage is to assure the reader that the second coming will not be secret (known by only a few "believers") but will be witnessed by everybody with lightning and loud trumpets. So then we get clowns and false teachers come along and say that nobody will be able to see the lightning or hear the loud trumpets except "believers".

Who believes this stuff? Who gives credence to such outrageous nonsense. Lightning which cannot be seen is an example of nonsense. Trumpets which cannot be heard is an example of nonsense. Sky breaking open with nobody witnessing it is another example of nonsense.

Apart from being nonsense it is also unscriptural because the passage specifically states that ALL the tribes of the earth will witness these events.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Please justify these beliefs of yours Benny by explaining what Matt 24:30 means in your scenario.

[/b]


First of all, these words in Matthew 24:30 were addressed specifically to Jesus' disciples there with Him clearly about things that were to happen to THEM. But I do agree that the lightning and trumpets are not secret. But even though this "lightning" and these "trumpets" are not secret, they are not literal. This is figurative language quite common in the Hebrew OT culture to describe God's judgment. We must read such passages with a Hebrew mindset and not our western mindset. Matthew 24:30 must be seen in light of Matthew 24:34--THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place." And that INCLUDES Matthew 24:30.

The things of Matthew 24 were fulfilled in the siege of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. All the tribes of the earth "saw" it just as they saw it when the Babylonians came upon them. In each case they mourned over their city and their Temple! Furthermore, Caiaphas is clearly told that HE would see Jesus "COMING ON THE CLOUDS." Those who pierced Him saw it! How much clearer can this be? Those actual people who "pierced Him" saw it!

Lightning and trumpets are symbols of those things present at the time of God's judgment upon nations and peoples. Compare Matthew 24:30 with Revelation 1:7. What is the time frame for both? They are the same! Matthew 24:30 happened in the "THIS generation" time frame. In other words, in that generation contemporaneous to Jesus and His disciples. Revelation 1:7 happened in the time of the "things which must SHORTLY take place" 1:1. (SHORTLY at the time of John's writing). Revelation 1:7 happened in the time of "those things which are written in it,, for the TIME IS NEAR (John 1:3--the time was near when John wrote these words!).

Consider the figurative language in Psalm 97:4. Should we take it literally?

CLOUDS and darkness surround Him [the Lord];
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
A FIRE goes before Him,
And burns up His enemies round about.
His LIGHTNINGS light the world.
The EARTH SEES and TREMBLES.
The MOUNTAINS MELT like wax at the presence of the Lord.


What about Psalm 77:11?--

The WATERS saw You, O God;
The WATERS saw You, they were afraid;
The DEPTHS also trembled.
The CLOUDS poured out water;
The SKIES sent out a sound;
Your ARROWS also flashed about.
The voice of Your THUNDER was in the WHIRLWIND;
The LIGHTNINGS lit up the world;
The EARTH trembled and shook.


There are many such passages as these. These are metaphors used by God through His prophets to express His judgment against His enemies. It is figurative and NOT to be taken literally. See Ezekiel 32:7-8; Isaiah 13:9-10; Isaiah 34:4-5; Amos 5:18; 8:9 for similar language to that in Matthew 24:30.

Speaking of Jesus--did a "sharp sword" go "out of His mouth" in Revelation 19:15? No! This, too, is figurative language reflective of His description as the Word of God (see Hebrews 4:12). In the same way, "the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean" and following Him on "white horses" are also to be taken figuratively. This is figurative language used to describe the saints of God.

Did Christ have a literal sickle in His hand? (Revelation 14:14) Did He literally sit on a cloud with a sickle? (Revelation 14:15).

We cannot be good students of God's Word if we do not understand the different types of language found within its pages. Too many in the Church today cannot accept the expression "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 because they take literally and not figuratively verse 30. They, then, say--"see, that never happened, so "this generation" must mean something other than what it everywhere else in the NT means. However, if Matthew 24:30 is correctly understood figuratively (as totally justified by OT Scriptures particularly), then there is no problem understanding "this generation" in its normal, common, usual sense.

Preterist



Preterist,

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

You have referred to the temple destruction in 70 ad as being in the time of the disciples, which you say those prophecies in Matthew 24 were intended - but Daniel 9 also referencs the destruction of the city.

The city was not destroyed until Hadrian in 135 AD. That would mean the disciples would have to have been 130 years old to see all of those events. ????? ohmy.gif

Peace,

Doug L.
Preterist
QUOTE(Douggg @ Feb 2 2007, 04:20 AM) [snapback]100625[/snapback]


Preterist,

9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

You have referred to the temple destruction in 70 ad as being in the time of the disciples, which you say those prophecies in Matthew 24 were intended - but Daniel 9 also referencs the destruction of the city.

The city was not destroyed until Hadrian in 135 AD. That would mean the disciples would have to have been 130 years old to see all of those events. ????? ohmy.gif

Peace,

Doug L.


blink.gif

The Wars of The Jews
History of the Destruction of Jerusalem

BY
Flavius Josephus
(Written in AD75)

Translated by William Whiston


Book VII, Chapter I, Section 1 (Entire)

The Entire City Of Jerusalem Was Demolished, Excepting Three Towers

1. NOW as soon as the army had no more people to slay or to plunder, because there remained none to be the objects of their fury, (for they would not have spared any, had there remained any other work to be done,) Caesar gave orders that they should now demolish the entire city and temple, but should leave as many of the towers standing as were of the greatest eminency; that is, Phasaelus, and Hippicus, and Mariamne; and so much of the wall as enclosed the city on the west side. This wall was spared, in order to afford a camp for such as were to lie in garrison, as were the towers also spared, in order to demonstrate to posterity what kind of city it was, and how well fortified, which the Roman valor had subdued; but for all the rest of the wall, it was so thoroughly laid even with the ground by those that dug it up to the foundation, that there was left nothing to make those that came thither believe it had ever been inhabited. This was the end which Jerusalem came to by the madness of those that were for innovations; a city otherwise of great magnificence, and of mighty fame among all mankind

[b]
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are set to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you DESOLATE

Preterist
George
QUOTE
When Millions Vanish, long read ....but well worth it!


The band width that was used to post it was worth more to the Lord than the article.
HAMMER
[quote name='benny balerio' post
Benny Balerio

"My friend, I have quoted these many men of the past as proof of the fact that from the days of the apostles and through the church of the first centuries the interpretation of the Scriptures was premillennial. When someone makes the statement that premillennialism is something that originated one hundred years ago with an old witch in England, he doesn't know what he is talking about. It is interesting to note that premillennialism was the belief of these very outstanding men of the early church.

Since these great forefathers of the Christian church eagerly longed for - even expected - Jesus Christ's return during their lifetime, it should be obvious to any believer with a heart toward inviting Holy Spirit discernment that they held unwaveringly to the belief that the Lord could return at any moment. If they had believed that Great Tribulation had to first occur before Christ returned, they would have certainly and ceaselessly warned all believers within their sphere of influence to be watching for the catastrophic occurrences and for the Antichrist, both of which Scripture tells us will have to come onto the scene before Jesus physically returns to earth to judge the nations and set up His millennial kingdom."

HAMMER'S REPLY:
Not one church father was a pretribber, period, and your quotes were edited so that they seemed to support an any moment rapture. Below is what the church fathers really said and they all seem to be posttribbers.

Justin Martyr: (AD. 110-165)
"[T]wo advents of Christ have been announced: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonored, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when the man of apostasy, who speaks strange things against the Most High, shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians, ... Now it is evident that no one can terrify or subdue us who have believed in Jesus over all the world. For it is plain that, though beheaded, and crucified, and thrown to wild beasts, and chains, and fire, and all other kinds of torture, we do not give up our confession; but the more such things happen, the more do others and in larger numbers become faithful, and worshippers of God through the name of Jesus." [Dialog with Trypho, CX]

Epistle of Barnabas: (AD. 100)
"The final stumbling-block (or source of danger) approaches, concerning which it is written, as Enoch says, "For this end the Lord has cut short the times and the days, that His Beloved may hasten; and He will come to the inheritance." And the prophet also speaks thus: "Ten kingdoms shall reign upon the earth, and a little king shall rise up after them, who shall subdue under one three of the kings." In the like manner Daniel says concerning the same, "And I beheld the fourth beast, wicked and powerful, and the more savage than all the beasts of the earth and how from it sprang up ten horns, and out of them a little budding horn, and how it subdued under one three of the ten horns. ... We take earnest heed in these last days; for the whole (past) time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger, as becometh sons of God. That the Black One may find no means of entrance, let us flee from every vanity, let us utterly hate the works of the way of wickedness." [Epistle of Barnabas, IV]

Irenaeus: (AD. 120-202)
"In a still clearer light has John, in the Apocalypse, indicated to the Lord's disciples what shall happen in the last times, and concerning the ten kings who shall then arise, ... These have one mind, and give their strength and power to the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, because He is the Lord of lords, and King of kings. ... And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord." [Against Heresies V, XXVI, 1]
"But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware of who he is:... But when this Antichrist shall have devastated all things in this world, he will reign for three years and six months, and sit in the temple in Jerusalem; and then the Lord will come from heaven in the clouds, in the glory of the Father, sending this man and those who follow him into the lake of fire; but bringing in for the righteous the times of the kingdom, that is, the rest, the hallowed seventh day; and restoring to Abraham the promised inheritance, in which kingdom the Lord declared, that "many coming from the east and from the west should sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." [Against Heresies V, XXX, 2,4]

"For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference