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senteami3
On CNN, I can see every one, including evangelical Christians turn around the bush and never really tackle the problem of homosexuality. Tolerance is supposed to be preached, yeah, but at what price?

At the price of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, so to tell the parties concerned (homosexuals) WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR, so they can have their ears tickled??? which would send them straight to hell??? blink.gif

Their excuse is that Jesus never preached on homosexuality. They give Jesus a certain credit while they discredit (as does my unsaved husband) what the apostles said since THEY WERE NOT JESUS.

wacko.gif

What do you say??? huh.gif
mmddll
I think as Christians, in order to tackle homosexuality, we need to include ALL sexual sin in the discussion, including divorce rates among Christians. It should be either all or nothing because ALL have sinned and fallen short. On the same hand, homosexual people need to be humble and confess their sin rather than try to justify it (The pharisee and tax collector parable comes to mind)
C
QUOTE(mmddll @ Dec 21 2006, 06:47 AM) [snapback]96221[/snapback]

I think as Christians, in order to tackle homosexuality, we need to include ALL sexual sin in the discussion, including divorce rates among Christians. It should be either all or nothing because ALL have sinned and fallen short. On the same hand, homosexual people need to be humble and confess their sin rather than try to justify it (The pharisee and tax collector parable comes to mind)

QUOTE
Revelation 21:8 (

8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."


I agree with you , that would be a good perspective . When we look at the scripture: the sexually immoral...that would include adultery, divorce (without the legit reason of adultery by the other partner) homosexuality, masturbation, looking at porn, looking with lust in your heart at another person,...
now that we understand that scripture, let us talk about it.
love C
Gypsylass
I was kind of surprised to see Masturbation in that list....is that addressed in the Bible as well? I'm not trying to be silly or even arguing, I seriously just never thought of that as a sin...course I'm fairly new Christian. I have just finished reading the whole new testament and am working on reading Psalms now...I just got my Strong's Concordence in the mail today...I'm sure that will help me alot as well. Hope you don't mind my question...
YSIC
Elaine
C
{Gen.38:8} And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother. {38:9} And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother. {38:10} And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of Jehovah: and he slew him also.

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So we can see that even if we have the "movie" of the act, playing in our minds, we are sinning.God wants us to be holy.

I included masturbation , because it will touch most people.So we see that God has tied us all over to sin, so that He can have mercy on us. Only God can release us from sin. Its not abstinence that is victory, its when God really sets us free from the desire....something that only He can do, IF we believe that He is able to do so.
Rom 11
32For (A)God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


God is sovereign, and chose to shut up all in disobedience (so that it would be impossible to break free in your own power!) so that He may show mercy to all (we all have to ask for His mercy in getting free from any sin)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Its all part of the lesson He is trying to teach His people: Trust in the Lord and do not lean onto your own understanding.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


He is our Father and delights in setting us free...but we have to ask , and then trust Him.


The point is also: If we want to judge homosexuality, we must be free from all impurity ourselves...then we also will not judge...but we will rather be showing the way out to the captives (all captives, even those who masturbate) That is why Jesus said to them to throw the first stone, because He knew they could not ...because .....God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all smile.gif

Only Jesus can set the captives free...it is not by power, nor by might (own works) but by My Spirit, says the Lord.
love C
Freedom link

mmddll
The only verse I can think of equated (erroneously, IMHO) with masturbation is the one about Onan spilling his seed on the ground. But his sin was, rather, not providing Tamar an heir (by refusing to impregnate her) because of his duty to his deceased brother to care for his widowed wife (Tamar). God killed him for his disobedience!



Some sexual sins are less serious than others. But the more serious ones are adultery and sodomy. Sodomy (defined as laying with a man as with a woman) is an abomination (very serious). I don't think God would be very pleased with Sado-Masochism, either. Apparently the pharisees had some of their own guilt to deal with, because after Jesus did some writing in the sand, none of them condemned the adulteress. These are all very complicated matters, but Jesus always told the sinners "Go and sin no more". Pornography is clearly an epidemic worldwide and I'm sure it has been an issue even in ancient times. Do some research on Pompeii erotic art (if you double-dare!) (Pompeii was totally destroyed by the eruption of Mount Vesuvius in 79 a.d. equivilent to an atomic bomb)



Here is one idea of the story of Onan related to masturbation



Good post, cornelius. I didn't see it until I posted mine.
senteami3
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Dec 21 2006, 01:59 AM) [snapback]96238[/snapback]

{Gen.38:8} And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother. {38:9} And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother. {38:10} And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of Jehovah: and he slew him also.



I thought God killed Onan not because of the act of spilling it on the ground, but because Onan REFUSED to be used to "father" children who would be carrying the name of his brother instead of his own, for children who would be regarded as being his brother's descendance, and not his...
Onan disobeyed God... sleep.gif ohmy.gif
C
I am not here to convict or convince anybody smile.gif that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
But if we look at this scripture
Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Jesus is pointing out that sin is in the heart of of man and not just in the act.
I think that Jesus pointed this out to show us how impossible it is for us to do it in our own strength and that we all needed His help to get free from sin.

I am not trying to condemn anybody , this is just to prove that we are not to judge, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

This is about homosexuality. If a homosexual is unsaved, he or she is the same as an unsaved heterosexual...they both need Jesus
When he/she gets saved, they have to repent (change their mind) and agree with God, in order for them to enter the Kingdom.They are then washed by the blood and are our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Can they carry on with their lifestyle?
No. That is what repentance means.
They must trust the Lord , like all Christians must, that God will set them free from sin.

In order to understand better, you have to imagine what it will feel like if it was against God's will to be heterosexual and imagine the battle you will have to go through to get into right standing with Him. Would you be able to change to please God? Or would you need every ounce of grace He could give you?

So to talk about unsaved homosexuals is like talking about the rest of the unsaved world. All the same in God's eyes. There is no special hell for homosexuals...all that reject the Lord will end up the same in the same place.
And to judge those that came to the Lord and battle, is cruel and unloving. We should help, by teaching the correct teaching out of the Word: There is liberty through Jesus. He came to set the captives free...sin shall have no dominion over us (Romans) ..we have been crucified with Christ and no longer live, but Christ now lives in us.
There is more than hope....there is real freedom for those who put their trust ONLY in the Lord...Who ALWAYS honours His Word


love C

A scripture to think upon:
Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Gypsylass
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Dec 21 2006, 12:59 AM) [snapback]96238[/snapback]

{Gen.38:8} And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and perform the duty of a husband's brother unto her, and raise up seed to thy brother. {38:9} And Onan knew that the seed would not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest he should give seed to his brother. {38:10} And the thing which he did was evil in the sight of Jehovah: and he slew him also.

Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So we can see that even if we have the "movie" of the act, playing in our minds, we are sinning.God wants us to be holy.

I included masturbation , because it will touch most people.So we see that God has tied us all over to sin, so that He can have mercy on us. Only God can release us from sin. Its not abstinence that is victory, its when God really sets us free from the desire....something that only He can do, IF we believe that He is able to do so.
Rom 11
32For (A)God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.


God is sovereign, and chose to shut up all in disobedience (so that it would be impossible to break free in your own power!) so that He may show mercy to all (we all have to ask for His mercy in getting free from any sin)

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



Its all part of the lesson He is trying to teach His people: Trust in the Lord and do not lean onto your own understanding.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.


He is our Father and delights in setting us free...but we have to ask , and then trust Him.


The point is also: If we want to judge homosexuality, we must be free from all impurity ourselves...then we also will not judge...but we will rather be showing the way out to the captives (all captives, even those who masturbate) That is why Jesus said to them to throw the first stone, because He knew they could not ...because .....God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all smile.gif

Only Jesus can set the captives free...it is not by power, nor by might (own works) but by My Spirit, says the Lord.
love C
Freedom link


Thank you for your answer...it made sense to me! I have so much to learn and I am loving everything I learn wub.gif 1dsz5e4.gif
justaservant
This is interesting because I am confronting a church member that confess that he is homosexual but believes that this is alright because God is love and he has accepted God as his savior.

This is what seems to me, that make any form of sin wrong in the Christian!!
1 Cor. 6:11
QUOTE
"but you were washed, (all cleaned up) but you were sanctified, (set apart for Holy service) but you were justified (declared righteous, just as if you have never sinned) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God."
(all in these brackets are mine)
This is what it means to be a Christian. Any other thoughts in my head are put there by satanic influence.
j
senteami3
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Dec 21 2006, 12:06 PM) [snapback]96281[/snapback]

I am not here to convict or convince anybody smile.gif that is the work of the Holy Spirit.
But if we look at this scripture
Matthew 5:28
but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.


Jesus is pointing out that sin is in the heart of of man and not just in the act.
I think that Jesus pointed this out to show us how impossible it is for us to do it in our own strength and that we all needed His help to get free from sin.

I am not trying to condemn anybody , this is just to prove that we are not to judge, because all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

This is about homosexuality. If a homosexual is unsaved, he or she is the same as an unsaved heterosexual...they both need Jesus
When he/she gets saved, they have to repent (change their mind) and agree with God, in order for them to enter the Kingdom.They are then washed by the blood and are our brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Can they carry on with their lifestyle?
No. That is what repentance means.
They must trust the Lord , like all Christians must, that God will set them free from sin.

In order to understand better, you have to imagine what it will feel like if it was against God's will to be heterosexual and imagine the battle you will have to go through to get into right standing with Him. Would you be able to change to please God? Or would you need every ounce of grace He could give you?

So to talk about unsaved homosexuals is like talking about the rest of the unsaved world. All the same in God's eyes. There is no special hell for homosexuals...all that reject the Lord will end up the same in the same place.
And to judge those that came to the Lord and battle, is cruel and unloving. We should help, by teaching the correct teaching out of the Word: There is liberty through Jesus. He came to set the captives free...sin shall have no dominion over us (Romans) ..we have been crucified with Christ and no longer live, but Christ now lives in us.
There is more than hope....there is real freedom for those who put their trust ONLY in the Lord...Who ALWAYS honours His Word


love C

A scripture to think upon:
Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.



Absolutely agree. I was just trying to get some scriptures because lately since (of course) Ted Haggard scandal. every homosexual tries to claim that what they are doing is OK and they TWIST the scriptures in order to justify their deeds. We are talking about homosexuality here primarily because the news are full of homosexuals who talk about their lifestyle. In our world, it's more known to be a sinner if you steal or if you kill, but no one is ever thinking ANYMORE that being homosexual is wrong...
I am not against the homosexuals, I am agains the sin.

AS A MATTER OF FACT, I DATED ONE smile.gif

AND I ALMOST MARRIED ANOTHER!!! smile.gif
C
Now there is a good example; If you take Tedd and Jimmy S ...you have one from the homosexual camp and the other from the heterosexual. Both fell into sexual sin.
I do not think that any one of them privately thought: "Great, I am a Christian and now I want to sin sexually because its OK"
No, I actually think both these people want to serve the Lord, but have never had a revelation about the grace, setting us free. Jimmy preached brimstone and hellfire and then (maybe to scare himself out of that, that was chasing him?) ...I am not familiar with Tedd (only recently heard about him, after the scandal) but if I might take a chance here...did he maybe also speak out against something?

Then we have Peter. He said "Lord I will never deny You" and then he did.

What do all three have in common?

Doing it in their own strength!

Then God allows us to fall and fall and fall until we really give up and call out to Him "Father ! Have mercy on me a sinner...and set me free!" Sometimes that does not work until we realise that we have to add faith to that prayer and we go looking for a scripture promise to stand on. We then grab hold of "Sin shall have no dominion over you"

Those people are in the public eye, but this scenario happens of in the body of Christ...daily, in normal people like you and me.All who stand in their own strength :Fall!


So its grace and mercy...therefor we cannot judge..because when we judge, we are saying "If I can live righteously, so can you" In fact saying:"I did it myself and it was not grace" So we are then self righteous and we are taking the glory for ourselves. What will happen: God will allow us to fall...until we give Him the honour and the glory.
love C
Samuel
As-salaamu Alayqum w Rahmutallah

I think by now everyone knows my stance on this problem.

I personally do not believe that people have any ground to base their "JESUS (PBUH) never preached on h**********" argument on! I'm pretty sure the HOLY SPIRIT counts as JESUS, and the Apostles of the New Testament were inspired by the HOLY SPIRIT of JESUS. So every Christian teaching and command and piece of advice must be from JESUS (PBUH) originally.

w Alayqum Salaam
C
I have not noticed that anybody here said anything about Jesus not preaching on homosexuality.The Word is the Word of God and as such are the words of Jesus as He is the Word that became flesh.

The issue is when Christians cannot discern between an unsaved person , be it a homosexual, adulterer, murder, , thief, a person who does not forgive, somebody who envies, who loves money,..the list goes on.. and a saved, blood washed person.

Its easy: Look: Draw a line...on one side are the sinners and on the other side are the saved people of God (all saved by grace and not by their own works, so nobody can boast)

On the left you will see the unsaved...I see a "good" old lady (but she does not know Jesus...she is also not a lesbian...just a normal lady) then there is the president of a country...good man,..but not saved(he is going to hell if he does not repent) then there is a homosexual, a school teacher(heterosexual, but an adulterer)................................all need to repent

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now this side of the line:

I see an old lady (use to steal at the airport shops) but now has repented and is saved and washed in the blood... she no longer steals but reaches out to the lost at the airport. smile.gif

I see a person who has repented of homosexuality...he/she now lives for God (blood washed and forgiven.) He does not sleep with men anymore and trusts God for his freedom. He is now in a better place than the president of a country on the other side of the line.

etc etc.

.......................


.but some love to single out sinners. No wonder that they think we are hypocrites...! Because we are!

We make out that we have not been saved by grace, because we judge others.


Samuel, maybe God will call you to go and witness His love to the homosexuals. To tell them that He loves them and that He died for them too, that its safe to come to a Christian and ask about the love of Jesus.That He came to set the captives free, that there is hope in our God.Maybe he will ask you to hug one and tell them its OK, that God loves them and you love them.
love C

C
Made Free from Sin



Dear friends, put your trust in the Lord for He has accomplished your salvation from sin.



The most important thing is to repent and confess your sins so you can be cleansed. {1 Jn.1:9} If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. When you have confessed your sins, you must confess the savior. Repentance means in Greek to "change your mind" so you must now believe the good news which has power. {Rom.1:16} For I am not ashamed of the gospel (good news): for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth...


The very good news is that Christ bore your sins away at the cross and you don't have them any more!

Yes, the ones you struggle with now are gone.

{1 Pet.2:24} who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed. The demons no longer have power to keep you in bondage through your faith that Jesus took your sins away. {Col.1:13} who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love. Through this teaching you are free from sin and those who kept you in bondage. {Rom.6:17} But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered; {6:18} and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.

Now you must cast down false imaginations that you are still in bondage to these sins. These thoughts are strongholds of the enemy. {2 Cor.10:4} (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds), {10:5} casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. If you continue to believe the enemies lies that he has power to keep you in sin you are giving him authority through negative faith in him to rule you. Yes, we can empower the enemy through faith for Jesus said, "as thou hast believed, [so] be it done unto thee" and "according to your faith be it done unto you." We have authority through our faith, good or bad, to bind or loose the enemy. {Mt.18:18} Verily I say unto you, what things soever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and what things soever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.


You must use the promises of God like a two edged sword to cut sin and the curse from your lives. {2 Cor.7:1} Having therefore these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. If we endure the trial of our faith reckoning that what God says is true sin will not reign over us. {Rom.6:6} knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be done away, that so we should no longer be in bondage to sin . . . {6:11} Even so reckon ye also yourselves to be dead unto sin, but alive unto God in Christ Jesus. {6:12} Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof: {6:13} neither present your members unto sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God. {6:14} For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.

If we are double minded by believing God one moment and believing the enemies lies the next we will not overcome. {Jas.1:6} But let him ask in faith, nothing doubting: for he that doubteth is like the surge of the sea driven by the wind and tossed. {1:7} For let not that man think that he shall receive anything of the Lord; {1:8} a doubleminded man, unstable in all his ways. If we believe and act on our faith victory is ours. {Rom.10:10} for with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. However if in our thinking and actions we add or subtract from the Word, we permit the enemy to keep us under the curse. {Rev.22:18} I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, if any man shall add unto them, God shall add unto him the plagues which are written in this book: {22:19} and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the tree of life, and out of the holy city, which are written in this book.
link
signet
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Dec 22 2006, 12:37 AM) [snapback]96356[/snapback]

Now there is a good example; If you take Tedd and Jimmy S ...you have one from the homosexual camp and the other from the heterosexual. Both fell into sexual sin.
I do not think that any one of them privately thought: "Great, I am a Christian and now I want to sin sexually because its OK"
No, I actually think both these people want to serve the Lord, but have never had a revelation about the grace, setting us free. Jimmy preached brimstone and hellfire and then (maybe to scare himself out of that, that was chasing him?) ...I am not familiar with Tedd (only recently heard about him, after the scandal) but if I might take a chance here...did he maybe also speak out against something?

Then we have Peter. He said "Lord I will never deny You" and then he did.

What do all three have in common?

Doing it in their own strength!

Then God allows us to fall and fall and fall until we really give up and call out to Him "Father ! Have mercy on me a sinner...and set me free!" Sometimes that does not work until we realise that we have to add faith to that prayer and we go looking for a scripture promise to stand on. We then grab hold of "Sin shall have no dominion over you"

Those people are in the public eye, but this scenario happens of in the body of Christ...daily, in normal people like you and me.All who stand in their own strength :Fall!


So its grace and mercy...therefor we cannot judge..because when we judge, we are saying "If I can live righteously, so can you" In fact saying:"I did it myself and it was not grace" So we are then self righteous and we are taking the glory for ourselves. What will happen: God will allow us to fall...until we give Him the honour and the glory.
love C



you speak truth...we do not know the beginning of a thing from the end...only God...

signet
mmddll
The thing I don't like about the homosexual movement is how they try to force everyone to accept their lifestyle, especially the so-called religious gays who profess Jesus. They should be dealt with by the church, but sadly are not, but rather are pandered to, especially the episcopal church (another one of many cults)



Walmart was started by a Christian God fearing man, but now Walmart is a member of the Gay and Lesbian Chamber of Commerce. Walmart is also in bed with China and communist South American countries (for cheap labor and goods). Money is their god.

C
The so-called religious gays must be told that there is no such thing. You cannot link the two.
Its part of what is happening with the great falling away that the Bible predicts at the end of time.
Can you imagine what Paul would have done if a gay person reported for duty in the church?

If the church became Biblical instead of PC, people would not go to hell in droves. In the NT times, people were scared to join the church , because a miss step there meant death by the Holy Spirit. We have lost the fear of God.

For a Christian, there is one way only: We preach the gospel ..bring freedom. You can hug the gay person who is unsaved, but once saved . he or she must change their lifestyle, or the church must not even touch such a person , if they do not want to repent.
Remember there is a difference between battling to overcome and a choice to live in sin because you do not want to repent.
Help those who battle (you who are strong, must help those who are weak)
But shun those who wilfully live their lives in sin.They are the tares amongst the wheat.That goes for Christians who live together in sin as well.
C
gregg
You are equipped with armour, not a vaccuum cleaner. Not one single individual sucks up souls and purifies them. This world contains all that you say it does. When you point your finger at no one in particular and group them together and give them a name, you are being judgemental. When you call a person 'Christian gay,' how do you know? It could be that the person was gay at one time before he became Christian or, on the other hand, he or she could have gone to bed with you and you are that gay person that you talk about. This world will continually have all that you say it does. You can go into your room and write down all that you say you won't do, but that will not rid the world of anything. It attracts your mind to what you say is there because you think of what is there. God did not say, 'Think of me and I'll be there.' Jesus said, 'In the world you have tribulation, but relax; I have overcome the world .' So, put on your armour so that you can withstand in the day of evil the darts sent by the evil one and throw away the vaccuum cleaner.
C
I think you are misunderstanding Gregg. I am not calling anybody Christian Gay. They call themselves that and that is impossible...its like saying " I am a Christian thief" or a "Christian adulterer... "
We are also not judging is we agree with the Word of God.Again it is like seeing an unsaved person, and not bringing the Gospel, because you do not want to "judge" them for being unsaved.
Its time we get rid of the PC syndrome in the body of Christ and walk in the Word.
C
kim48
A few months ago a church here in our town had a homosexual as a Sunday School teacher. No one knew that she was gay. She came out of the closet while she was the Sunday School teacher. It cause a big up roar in the community. She said "Im a Christian and I have a same sex partner". When she was ask to step down as a teenager class teacher she wanted to sue the Church. Alot of people said she was a good person and she deserved to be the teacher. Other said NO WAY!
I was ask how I felt about it by a member of that Church. I explain to them no way should she be kick of the church because all churches should welcome sinners but she should not be a member of that church or hold any office.
She really feels she is a Christain. I wanted so much to meet her and ask her where she found in the Bible that homosexuality was ok. I never did.
I do have to say there is no sin that is greater than another sin in Christ's eyes. We all have sin but untill we turn away from that sin and repent we cant be called Christain. We sin daily but we ask forgivesness also as a Christain.
I reallly feel the Bible emphatically states that neither fornicators not homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God(1 Corinthains 6:9 NKJV) The scriptures repeatedly and consistently condemn homosexual practices (Levit. 18:22)and also in Romans 1:26. Gods loves all persons including homosexuals but HE HATES HOMOSEXUALITY. The Bible comdemns all types of formicatiion and that also includes homosexuality.
kim
mmddll
I think Cornelius and Kim48 made some good points. We are not being "judgmental" for pointing out "gays" as a group. My point was made by kim48 in the sense that a gay or lesbian who is currently involved in a homosexual relationship inside the church is an unrepentant sinner and should not be in any leadership position of authority in the church. The same should apply to someone who is having an affair or someone who is a fornicator (sleeps around) or who is constantly getting married and divorced. They still need instruction if they persist in claiming their sin is acceptable to God. That's not to say they aren't saved, but they are in serious error and need correction, and if they persist, should be removed from the church community. The outside homosexual movement (unsaved) and fornicators in general, are a major part of why this is being allowed in the church, because of peer pressure, which is why I mentioned Wallmart. A little leaven leavens the whole lump. Jesus said if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. He was talking about the body of believers as well as individuals (because each of us forms a different part of the body of Christ)



The armor consists of a sword, does it not? And a breastplate of righteousness? If the church allows excuses from the outside world, what makes it any different or appealing than the sinful world itself, and why are we even discussing these things?

We are supposed to be "in the world but not of the world". And we are supposed to be using our weapons and armor, not just sitting idly by and admiring them.



signet


"And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thous shalt be called, 'The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in."
Isaiah 58:12

may we agree to pray for those that have not seen the light of the Lord,
and for those that struggle with devastating sin, for only God knows
the end from the beginning...and all have sinned and fallen short of the
glory of God...

Let us speak forth the same blessing that is spoken of us...
"Then............shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." Isaiah58:14
C
QUOTE(mmddll @ Dec 25 2006, 12:35 AM) [snapback]96576[/snapback]



The armor consists of a sword, does it not? And a breastplate of righteousness? If the church allows excuses from the outside world, what makes it any different or appealing than the sinful world itself, and why are we even discussing these things?


We are discussing them, because the church is not doing the things you say she must do.It is time for those who hear the call, to shake themselves awake from their sleep and stand up.

I remember a time when people were told to leave the church , because they did not want to repent and carried on sinning. The pastor read a letter to the congregation, telling us to cut them out of fellowship and have nothing to do with them until they repent. I tell you, a fear and sorrow settled on us. I remember crying for them (and also being under a strong sense of the moments reality)...a lot of people were crying.
The leadership spent a year counciling, before doing this.
Now if that has to happen in all churches, we will have less people walking in sin.First, the leadership goes to help...because often it is knowledge of the Word that is needed, to stop sinning.
Then if they are truly unrepentant, they must go.They will be allowed back, if they repent.

love C

mmddll
Thanks for your reply, C
That was actually a rhetorical question (not needing an answer) directed at greggs last comment, but I'm glad you answered it.
Miki
Ask yourself this question...

Why would a homosexual that doesn't want to repent be sitting there in the first place?

Then begin to build around that.
C
Why would an unsaved pastor, be preaching from a pulpit? (I personaly know two)
fervent
The Christian (biblical) stance will never gain approval from the world...

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Rom 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
fervent
QUOTE(kim48 @ Dec 24 2006, 08:09 AM) [snapback]96539[/snapback]

A few months ago a church here in our town had a homosexual as a Sunday School teacher. No one knew that she was gay. She came out of the closet while she was the Sunday School teacher. It cause a big up roar in the community. She said "Im a Christian and I have a same sex partner". When she was ask to step down as a teenager class teacher she wanted to sue the Church. Alot of people said she was a good person and she deserved to be the teacher. Other said NO WAY!
I was ask how I felt about it by a member of that Church. I explain to them no way should she be kick of the church because all churches should welcome sinners but she should not be a member of that church or hold any office.
She really feels she is a Christain. I wanted so much to meet her and ask her where she found in the Bible that homosexuality was ok. I never did.
I do have to say there is no sin that is greater than another sin in Christ's eyes. We all have sin but untill we turn away from that sin and repent we cant be called Christain. We sin daily but we ask forgivesness also as a Christain.
I reallly feel the Bible emphatically states that neither fornicators not homosexuals will inherit the kingdom of God(1 Corinthains 6:9 NKJV) The scriptures repeatedly and consistently condemn homosexual practices (Levit. 18:22)and also in Romans 1:26. Gods loves all persons including homosexuals but HE HATES HOMOSEXUALITY. The Bible comdemns all types of formicatiion and that also includes homosexuality.
kim

Habitual unrepentant sin is the kind of sin which confounds grace...

1Jo 1:5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1Jo 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

This is it here...

If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth...

But God is going to work through a process...He will let those who have issues such as this come to a point of need which will speak of the need to change...but only if one seeks after Him with a true heart desirous of change. I am glad that sexual sin is under the blood. For it does not start or end with homosexuality. Abortion springs from sexual sin also. Incest, rape, masterbation, pornography etc....
Miki
and that all extends from lust. Lust includes a multitude of sins, not just sexual.

Desiring after things.

It also covers food and all sorts of addictions....

Lust extends from idolatry.

Kim l know of a similar case. It was so grievous as the original perpetrator only gave into this unnatural desire when placed in a position of authority with in the church. She was married and had gone through therapy. This women was terribly abused as a child. And l mean terribly....The first friends she ever had where in the church setting and what began with first friendships soon turned into something else. No doubt as a result of childhood experiences and being placed into the position she was. When exposed she left and her female friend who was married with children left her husband and went a long.


People finally recovered from it but it was the talk of the christian community for a long while.
To me what's so sad about this, is that demons where at work and should have been cast out in Jesus name. This is an area most are unwilling to face. If directly challenged l wouldn't run but l have to admit l would rather turn away then deal with this kind of situation head on. Partly because the deliverance ministries in our entire community exist under cover. For the sake of those involved.
This is understandable. But ...

is this right?

If God gives someone over to a reprobate mind...what exactly does that mean?

We don't always see clearly because the unclean hides so as not to loose their home.

But...Can we cast out what God has called into being? Can a person with a demon repent?

I believe there are plenty of warnings in a persons life. I believe the same unclean spirit or demon can attach itself to someone and come and go according the level it is able to tempt the person. Each time they give into the thoughts the more control it has. They begin to act out and God finally gives it over.

Now....Can we really take that territory of that life back?

The answer would have to be yes because l know of people delivered in this way....

But who is willing to take this burden on? See this is the problem. The sin of homosexuality and other lusts stay right where they are because we don't cast them out. Why?

So see... it's not just the homosexual's fault but the fault lies with the church as well for not doing what they are suppose to.... for fear.

I'm sorry but l don't look at what the Catholics do with there rituals

but

love and care for a person enough to fast and pray. I'm so guilty in this.... Maybe we should really change this year by being obedient in all things. Not just the ones that are easy..Each of us know of homosexuals. How much are you willing to give? Then we won't have to have this conversation so often.

C
I really believe that Christians have not been taught how to deal with sin scripturally, so how are they going to minister freedom to homosexuals?
Most Christians believe they are only "sinners saved by grace" and they quote this as if it was scripture (its not)
Most Christians have not realised that we must take the victory before we see it. We must call things which are not as if they were....we must cleanse ourselves with the promises...
Most wait for heaven to stop sinning and take the promises to mean, ...one day in heaven..
Nobody wants to give God the credit that He can do it for us now if we have faith....the fact that He said "It is done" is just a statement to most,,,meaningless in fact. Few has studied the total work of Jesus , let alone believed it...very few preach it.
No wonder the captives stay captive....
That is why Jesus wondered if He will still find faith on earth when He returns.Not faith in Him, (that He exists) but faith that He is able and always do what He promise.Faith in the promises.
Who still believe the promises? (accept give and ye shall receive...that one everybody quotes for some reason)
C
fervent
QUOTE(Miki @ Dec 26 2006, 05:21 AM) [snapback]96690[/snapback]

and that all extends from lust. Lust includes a multitude of sins, not just sexual.

Desiring after things.

It also covers food and all sorts of addictions....

Lust extends from idolatry.

Kim l know of a similar case. It was so grievous as the original perpetrator only gave into this unnatural desire when placed in a position of authority with in the church. She was married and had gone through therapy. This women was terribly abused as a child. And l mean terribly....The first friends she ever had where in the church setting and what began with first friendships soon turned into something else. No doubt as a result of childhood experiences and being placed into the position she was. When exposed she left and her female friend who was married with children left her husband and went a long.


People finally recovered from it but it was the talk of the christian community for a long while.
To me what's so sad about this, is that demons where at work and should have been cast out in Jesus name. This is an area most are unwilling to face. If directly challenged l wouldn't run but l have to admit l would rather turn away then deal with this kind of situation head on. Partly because the deliverance ministries in our entire community exist under cover. For the sake of those involved.
This is understandable. But ...

is this right?

If God gives someone over to a reprobate mind...what exactly does that mean?

We don't always see clearly because the unclean hides so as not to loose their home.

But...Can we cast out what God has called into being? Can a person with a demon repent?

I believe there are plenty of warnings in a persons life. I believe the same unclean spirit or demon can attach itself to someone and come and go according the level it is able to tempt the person. Each time they give into the thoughts the more control it has. They begin to act out and God finally gives it over.

Now....Can we really take that territory of that life back?

The answer would have to be yes because l know of people delivered in this way....

But who is willing to take this burden on? See this is the problem. The sin of homosexuality and other lusts stay right where they are because we don't cast them out. Why?

So see... it's not just the homosexual's fault but the fault lies with the church as well for not doing what they are suppose to.... for fear.

I'm sorry but l don't look at what the Catholics do with there rituals

but

love and care for a person enough to fast and pray. I'm so guilty in this.... Maybe we should really change this year by being obedient in all things. Not just the ones that are easy..Each of us know of homosexuals. How much are you willing to give? Then we won't have to have this conversation so often.

In the years of my faith walk, I rarely have seen demons cast out....one was the very night I was reborn...two girls beside me in a prayer line...but beyond that it appears that few people are so sold out for God that when they approach a demonic posession, the demon can see Christ in them...I am reminded of the Acts scripture about the sons of Sceva...

Act 19:13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth. Act 19:14 And there were seven sons of [one] Sceva, a Jew, [and] chief of the priests, which did so. Act 19:15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye? Act 19:16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

If you are not living the consecrated life it will not be acknowledged in the spirit realm....I think our vast and unignorable problem in our church body today is that we have NO POWER because we have a weak relationship with the Lord (Laodicean) and because we do not FOLLOW CHRIST in the simplicity of His word, but instead spend our days trying to make a complicated formula out of everything we have been given in scripture...one reason why I rarely participate in the long diaphanous etymology of the words of scripture in the area of eschatology etc...It is a case of having... Rev 2:4 Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Oh how I long to be released over into a place where I can be real with God and walk in the power of His Spirit even as Jesus walked, having first been led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. What road must be taken? Everything seems to be a dead end and a ploy. I suspect it has to do with Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Sometimes I even think that demon posession is a way to find that gate...much like the man of the Gadarenes found it...Jesus came to him and saved him. But when he wanted to "follow Jesus" the Lord told him Mar 5:19 Howbeit Jesus suffered him not, but saith unto him, Go home to thy friends, and tell them how great things the Lord hath done for thee, and hath had compassion on thee.

I think everything we do is under a special and directly applied anointing to serve, derived from 1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

I expect we need to know that as we "preach the word" (not "any" word but the actual salvation message of the gospel) that we find demons fleeing...Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Miki
QUOTE
Oh how I long to be released over into a place where I can be real with God and walk in the power of His Spirit even as Jesus walked, having first been led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Sometimes l wonder if this wilderness is the world?

Anyway...

QUOTE
Sometimes I even think that demon posession is a way to find that gate...


Maybe you should rethink that statement... I don't agree at all.

There are so many possessed people out there...not all of them are going to run into Jesus on the road unless we are doing what we are suppose to be doing. People have to agree to this. The enemy isn't going to leave a house where they have permission to stay. Perhaps it has to do with the climax of time...where the bad get worse and the good get better.

Each one is more gifted in one area than another but the Holy Spirit desires to work through each of us as stated in your last statement of scripture.

QUOTE
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Here is where l wonder about the gift of faith?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

C...The disciples had little faith. God used them anyway and worked through them even in their unbelief. As far as l know except in the case of demon possession where he tells them they have little faith and instructed them what to do to help their unbelief. This was before Pentecost but it also says he equipped them to go. Did l hear or read that he breathed on them?


fervent
QUOTE(Miki @ Dec 26 2006, 08:05 AM) [snapback]96715[/snapback]

QUOTE
Oh how I long to be released over into a place where I can be real with God and walk in the power of His Spirit even as Jesus walked, having first been led of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
Sometimes l wonder if this wilderness is the world?

Anyway...

QUOTE
Sometimes I even think that demon posession is a way to find that gate...


Maybe you should rethink that statement... I don't agree at all.

There are so many possessed people out there...not all of them are going to run into Jesus on the road unless we are doing what we are suppose to be doing. People have to agree to this. The enemy isn't going to leave a house where they have permission to stay. Perhaps it has to do with the climax of time...where the bad get worse and the good get better.

Each one is more gifted in one area than another but the Holy Spirit desires to work through each of us as stated in your last statement of scripture.

QUOTE
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Here is where l wonder about the gift of faith?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

C...The disciples had little faith. God used them anyway and worked through them even in their unbelief. As far as l know except in the case of demon possession where he tells them they have little faith and instructed them what to do to help their unbelief. This was before Pentecost but it also says he equipped them to go. Did l hear or read that he breathed on them?

Anyway...

QUOTE
Sometimes I even think that demon posession is a way to find that gate...


Maybe you should rethink that statement... I don't agree at all.


Yes, I never really said that well and it is not my heart either...I guess I am just frustrated by knowing the scriptural promises and not seeing them manifest, and Jesus in that case went to the possesed one and he did it (implied) in a direct trip across the Sea of Galilee where the demonic storm brewed to cause the sinking of the ship... and the disciples feared and woke Jesus up and He quelled the storm to their amazement. As you say, they were of little faith and they were in His presence...The storm was a direct attempt at taking the Holy One and his disciples out of the game because they knew a legion was going to be cast out when He got to "the other side."

You are wise in your fulness of years!
LoisFaith2000
Note: I heard a testimony of a pastor who years earlier was lying on the sofa with incurable back problems and no hope and not saved! A t.v. evangelist came on........he got saved/his back was healed instantly and he could then walk. Before the bad back problem, he was a homo with no less than 11 men a day! That instant the Lord miraculously delivered him of homosexuality also. (This was close to 20 years ago). He now has a flourishing storefront church. The Lord, not instantly, but over the years restored his lost family to him (all his children) but not the wife. She is still living in sin; but this pastor is believing God for her. He has never even dated.


December 26, 2006. Separate. Much is at risk in your life right now. There are some things in your life that you must discard. You will have some difficult choices to make. But I know your heart and I have known you from the beginning. Not only this, but My destiny for you is for a lifetime. From many I have chosen you because I know the choice you make will be the right one. My good hand is upon you because I love you and consider you highly valued. You are a true champion in the making. I want you for Myself. You must give your whole heart to Me. It is within you to be great in My kingdom. Separate.

Jeremiah 15:19 "Therefore, thus says the Lord, "If you return, then I will restore you-- before Me you will stand; and if you extract the precious from the worthless, you will become My spokesman. They for their part may turn to you, but as for you, you must not turn to them."
kim48
C I too really believe that Christians have not been taught how to deal with sin scripturally, so how are they going to minister freedom to homosexuals?
People kept themselves in a closet and didnt come out and we didnt want to think about it. It hit us hard in the churches and we didnt know what to do about it.
I dont think it has been (preach) enough in the churches so it has left a hole in our messages to the flock. When we go into the churches and hear the feel good messages and the meat has been left out. Mostly what I am hearing is give and you will get back more which true but we are missing the meat.
Yes, Miki having be a social worker for so many years in 99.99% of the homosexials have been abuse as a child the same way. It leave a whole or an openning for a demon to enter in.
We need to invite all the people to a church to hear the word of God. Right now I am seeing teenagers saying I'm gay and I'm proud. It has become a fad for the young people. Parents are so busy they are not noticeing what is happening to the childern.
Kim
Miki
Kimy... blush.gif The on fire Christians have been in the closet too and are coming out! tongue.gif
Samuel
ASAWR

Quote
I have not noticed that anybody here said anything about Jesus not preaching on homosexuality.The Word is the Word of God and as such are the words of Jesus as He is the Word that became flesh.
Unquote

I didn't say that anyone here did say that, i simply said people who do make that claim (that JESUS (PBUH) didn't preach on ****. . . . . .) have no ground to base it on. smile.gif

WAS
gregg
Tell me what you mean by the letters PBUH. Is that some kind of foreign word?
Or is that the other name that we must learn to be saved?
kim48
QUOTE(Miki @ Dec 26 2006, 05:59 PM) [snapback]96750[/snapback]

Kimy... blush.gif The on fire Christians have been in the closet too and are coming out! tongue.gif

You are so right Miki. Every thing is being divided out like the wheat from the tares. Christains are stepping out in the front line and asking to be counted. I like it! I have also notice how easy it is for Christains to spot the real truth and seek out other Christains.
Kim
C
Amen Kimi, smile.gif That is because being a Christian is not sitting in a building or being part of a denomination.
The tares are sitting in the buildings with us, but they cannot be part of the body of Christ, ...once we step out of the doors and live begins, the difference shows up. Christ is not divided! The real body knows one another , like you say, on sight. Our spirit is one.We speak the same "language".
love C
Miki
yep...spot on Kimi... blush.gif

C... said:
QUOTE
being a Christian is not sitting in a building or being part of a denomination.


Though if you are it doesn't mean you're not.. wink.gif (like me..)

Hey...look at this picture l found while surfing for a church picture. This is Korea...Presbyterian..though l have a feeling most don't know what a presbyterian really is...
do you think any are Christian? blush.gif

Read the write up and see what you think? Are Presbyterians accepting of homosexuality? They reject Israel...read about the miracles here...

http://jesushp.com/eng/author.html

This is why we can never know when we look at the big picture. Some things are guarded so we can't even look as closely as we might like. But God knows...I think it's scary....
C
QUOTE
Though if you are it doesn't mean you're not.. (like me..)


Of course not. That is why I mentioned that tares are sitting amongst the wheat IN church buildings.
smile.gif
C
Interesting scripture this:
1 Peter 4 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?
jamie bocc
QUOTE(senteami3 @ Dec 20 2006, 11:25 PM) [snapback]96214[/snapback]

On CNN, I can see every one, including evangelical Christians turn around the bush and never really tackle the problem of homosexuality. Tolerance is supposed to be preached, yeah, but at what price?

At the price of POLITICAL CORRECTNESS, so to tell the parties concerned (homosexuals) WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR, so they can have their ears tickled??? which would send them straight to hell??? blink.gif

Their excuse is that Jesus never preached on homosexuality. They give Jesus a certain credit while they discredit (as does my unsaved husband) what the apostles said since THEY WERE NOT JESUS.

wacko.gif

What do you say??? huh.gif


In the beginning was THE WORD and THE WORD was with GOD and THE WORD was GOD. YESHUA was THE WORD so I guess YESHUA had plenty to say about homosexuality plus YESHUA picked Paul and Paul had something to say about it.
sojourner
I'm at a point in my life where I see sexuality as a crude fundamental of life on earth. Apes do it, dogs do it, cows and elephants, flies and rats do it. Only human beings have the capability of understanding at some point that some things are more important. It's about rising to the next level of understanding. Otherwise, sex is always fore front in the minds of less mature individuals when different things should be being considered. Homosexuality and fornication of any kind is a tremendous waste of time and energy. People struggle with this obssession just like people who struggle with gambling, pyromania, or cleptomania. Resisting can be the challenge of a lifetime.

I know that God loves the homosexual. It's not our job to punish them. We should not harm them or prevent them from getting jobs or buying homes. Instead we should set good examples for them and pray for them.

sojourner
kim48
You are so right about sex is always fore front in the minds of less mature individuals when different things should be being considered. Homosexuality and fornication of any kind is a tremendous waste of time and energy. People struggle with this obssession just like people who struggle with gambling, pyromania, or cleptomania. I am finding it is addition with alot of people and it begans at an early age if they dont have the proper up bringing. With the internet, I am finding it is so easy for a person to find what ever that want to find to look at. With out guildince they see nothing wrong with it.
Kim
Miki
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Dec 27 2006, 09:11 PM) [snapback]96818[/snapback]

Interesting scripture this:
1 Peter 4 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

18AND IF IT IS WITH DIFFICULTY THAT THE RIGHTEOUS IS SAVED, WHAT WILL BECOME OF THE GODLESS MAN AND THE SINNER?



What does Peter say in that book that gives us hope and instruction? When you quote the judgement without the cure it brings discouragement. If you feel discouraged let me give a long but rewarding commentary that will give instruction and hope. And this is for Sojourner too.

QUOTE
Ray Stedman The Message of 1 Peter

In the month of July in the year 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in the city of Rome and the entire city was engulfed in flames. Hundreds of public buildings were burned to the ground, hundreds of acres were blackened in the city, and thousands of homes were destroyed, so that there were thousands of the inhabitants of the city left homeless. History has concluded that the Emperor Nero set that fire in order that he might destroy the ramshackle buildings of Rome and give him room to erect some marble palaces and other monuments that he thought would establish his name in history. It was during this time, of course, that the story was born that Nero fiddled while Rome burned, but it has since been conclusively proved that the violin was not invented at that time. What he played is hard to tell, but it is pretty clear from some of the contemporary historians that the Emperor was seen looking over the city and enjoying the view while it was burning. There are some who claim that when the fire was put out in one part of the city, suddenly and mysteriously it was lit again, so the historians of that day seem to be almost unanimous in concluding that Nero did burn down the city.
The populace was incensed, they were ready to revolt and overthrow him, so Nero quickly looked around for a scapegoat that he could blame for the fire. There was in Rome a group of people who were just in the right situation to lend themselves to take the blame for the fire. They were called Christians. They followed a man named Christ, about whom strange things were said, and they themselves did very strange things. Rumors were flying all around Rome that they were cannibals, because they talked about getting together in their houses, drinking someone's blood and eating his body. They spoke about "love feasts,"---at which they greeted one another with a holy kiss, and shared their innermost problems with each other. This soon became enlarged into stories of sexual orgies. So they were a people already under deep suspicion. When the Emperor needed a scapegoat, therefore, he started the rumor around Rome that the Christians had burned down the city.

There were a lot of people who refused to believe that, but there were some who did, and in order to enforce it the Emperor began a very serious series of persecutions against the Christians. It was during this time that Christians were dipped in tar and burned as torches to light the gardens of Nero when he threw an outdoor party. They were tied to his chariot and dragged through the streets of Rome until they were dead. They were thrown to the lions; they were tied up in leather bags and thrown into water so that when the leather bags shrank, the Christians were squeezed to death. In a hundred other delicate ways, Nero sought to impress upon them the folly of being Christians.

Now it was during this time of the outbreak of the persecution of Christians in Rome that the apostle Peter wrote this letter. And he wrote it, most scholars believe, in Rome to "the exiles," he says, or "the strangers in dispersion:"


...To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and for sprinkling with his blood...
Babylon on the Euphrates River, but most scholars seem quite agreed that he was using the term that was common in the Christians of that century to refer to Rome, because all of the licentiousness and idolatry and evil of Babylon had now been transferred to the capital of the Roman Empire. So it is very likely that the Apostle Peter wrote this letter from the city of Rome in about 67 A.D. And he wrote it to Christians, mostly Gentile Christians, who were scattered about in cities in the northeast province of what we now call Asia Minor, or Turkey, and to them this letter came. They were being hounded and persecuted all through the Empire because of Nero's proclamation, and so the apostle wrote to encourage them in the face of their difficulties.

This then is one of the letters of the New Testament especially helpful to anybody who is going through some difficulty. If you are facing the problem of suffering of any kind, I would urge you to read First Peter. If you are wondering what God is doing in the world of our day and what is going to happen in the face of all the tensions and pressures and possibilities of terror that await us in the future, this is an excellent letter to read because it was written to Christians under similar circumstances.

Peter begins with the greatest fact in the life of any Christian. his relationship to Jesus Christ with the new birth. Peter says:


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew...
That is the greatest thing that ever happens to anyone. When I was a boy I remember Christians giving testimony and very frequently they would say, "The greatest thing that ever happened to me was the day I met Jesus Christ." Well, I was a Christian, but down deep in my heart I did not really believe that it was the greatest thing that ever happened to me. It seemed to be a rather minor incident in my life. I did not have any great experience. I was only 10 years old when I came to know Jesus Christ and though it was a very precious thing to me, yet it did not seem to be a very important thing. There were other decisions that I would have to make a little later on that seemed more important, like what kind of work was I going to do, who was I going to marry and where would I live---a few things like this. But now as I look back over more than half a century, I can say that unquestionably, beyond a shadow of a doubt, far and above every other decision I ever made, that decision I made as a lad 10 years old was the greatest decision of my life. Everything has been related to that some way or another.

Now Peter goes on to point out here why this is true. He says that there are three things about this decision that are extremely significant, which you can get there and no place else. One is a living hope. What a word for this hopeless age! Peter says: (verses 3-5)


...to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you...
Did you know you had reservations in heaven already? Now some And thus we get this beautiful and wonderful letter---what we people say, "That is pie in the sky, by and by. That is opiate for call the first letter of Peter.

You will notice that at the close of this letter, Peter says he wrote it from Babylon. There are some who say he meant the literal the masses---you know, to keep us happy while we struggle along down here." That is what Karl Marx told the world. And I suppose it can be looked at that way in a sense. Yet when you look at the hopelessness that pervades our society today and you see young people who ought to be filled with a sense of life and living, lying sometimes for hours like zombies, corpses in our public parks because they have nothing to do, nowhere to go, nothing to live for, you can see what a living hope does. It activates us. It motivates us now. This is a great thing about Christianity. If you take away the hope of another world, another life, you destroy the meaning of this life. So Peter begins there.

But that is not all. He says that we not only have a living hope, but present power. We are kept by the power. Verse 5:


who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed.
A present power. A power that sustains us. It grips us when we are in terror or anxiety or need and strengthens us and comes to us in spite of all the obstacles life throws at us.

And third, a rejoicing love, for he says (verse 8):


Without having seen him you love him; though you do not now see him you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy.
I hope all of you know what he is talking about here. That kind of quiet joy that fills the heart inside simply because you know Jesus Christ. Not because of anything he does for you, but because he is and he lives and loves you and you love him. Even though you cannot see him you love him.

Now Peter goes on to say that all this has been predicted by the Old Testament prophets. This is not something dreamed up nor imagined---something that is cooked up in somebody's fantasmagorical pot. It is not a fable, he says a little later on, but it is the truth predicted, and it was confirmed exactly as it was predicted. It occurred that way and thus we can rest upon it. So in this way he encourages us by the fact that we have this inner witness and this outer testimony. These are the grounds upon which Christian faith always rests, in any age or at any time.

Peter goes on to show us that growing out of this there have to be certain changes in our life as a result. If this is what we are, then what we must somehow do is relate to that, or otherwise it really is not happening to us. All that he says and all the New Testament continually says to us is, be what you are. That is all. Just be what you are. Do not be hypocrites. That is being something that you are not. But be what you are.

There are three marks that he sets forth in this letter for these Christians and for us. First he says, "Be holy." Now what do you think when you hear that word holy? Do you think of someone who has been stewed in vinegar? Sour? So pious that he is always mouthing pious sayings and talking about religious things? Is this what holiness means to you? Well, obviously you have missed the whole meaning of it if that is what you think.

Do you know how the Old Testament refers to holiness? It calls it "the beauty of holiness." And there is something beautiful about a holy person because holiness means "wholeness." This is a real person. To me the ingredients of wholeness are basically first, singlemindedness. He is a person who has his eye on a goal. on a person whom he follows, and that person is so thoroughly all-important to him that he is not interested in anything that does not relate to that person. That is singleminded, dedicated. There is something attractive about that. Any time you meet a Marine who takes pride in his outfit you can see the kind of singlemindedness I am talking about. He is proud that he is a Marine, and he walks like it and he talks like it.

Now there is that same quality about a Christian who understands his Lord. He is holy, in the sense that he is dedicated. And then he is at peace with himself. He is not struggling with anyone, or certainly not within himself. He is at rest. He is adjusted. He does not get upset when everything around him starts crumbling apart. That is what holiness is.

Then he is interested in you. He is outgoing. He is not always thinking about himself and his likes and concerns and his comfort. But he is thinking about yours, and how you are doing. They are a most attractive kind of people to be around. I love holy people. I wish all you were holy. It would be so much fun coming to church!

Then Peter says, "Be fearful." Yes, he does. (Verses 17-19):


And if you invoke as Father him who Judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile. You know that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your fathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ,
What does he mean "fearful?" Well, he means have an honest respect for the kind of Being God is. Remember whom you are dealing with. You are not dealing with another man who can be fooled by your actions and attitudes. You are dealing with One who knows you more thoroughly than you know yourself, and he is no respecter of persons. You cannot buy hisfavor. You cannot trick him into treating you differently than he treats anyone else. You cannot become his favorite. God does not act that way. Now if you begin to play fast and loose with him, the results that he says will happen will happen to you just as surely as to anyone else.

Now that kind of a being knows us so well that it kind of frightens you, doesn't it. That is what Peter means. Conduct yourself with fear, remembering that you are dealing with One you cannot fool. Therefore, be honest, remembering that you have been bought, not with things men use in the market, but with something that no one else could have given, the precious blood of Jesus Christ.

And third, as a result of belonging to him, he says, be priests. Chapter 2, verse 4:


Come to him, to that living stone, rejected by men but in God's sight chosen and precious; and like living stones be yourselves built into a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices...
This, by the way, is the answer to the question that many people ask today. What did Jesus mean when he said to Peter, "Peter, your name is Peter, and upon that rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Now, we know that the word "Peter" means "rock," and the Catholic Church tells us that Jesus meant that he was going to build his church upon Peter. But Peter says, "No." He was there. He ought to know. He says, "Jesus is the rock." And every believer who comes to Christ is like a stone built upon that rock, that great underlying rock upon which God is erecting the building called the church today. But Jesus is that rock, and you are built up upon him like stones upon the great rock in order that you might be a priesthood, says Peter, in order to offer something unto God, something that God greatly desires and wants. What is it? What can you give God that he wants that he doesn't have? Think of that. What can you and 1, mere human beings in this great universe give to the One who flung the stars out into space---something he very much wants. What is it? Here Peter tells us. (verse 9)


But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people, that you may declare the wonderful deeds of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
That is what God wants. He wants you to talk about what he has done for you and tell others what he is like to you. And when you do you offer a sacrifice unto God that is like a sweet-smelling offering and a savor of worship unto him.

Peter now goes on now to deal with the more practical aspects of life. He deals with how they should live their life as citizens. Here these people were living in the Roman Empire, and under this persecution, and yet they had certain obligations. In chapter 2, verse 11 and on, he deals with these obligations. He says as citizens submit yourself to the government and the powers that be. Verse 17:


Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear [love] God. Honor the emperor.
What emperor? Nero, who drags Christians around behind his chariot and burns them as living torches in his garden? Honor the emperor? In these days when young people, even sometimes Christian young people, think they have the right to take the law into their own hands, disobey the powers that be, and do so in the name of God, ought to read a passage like that and remember that it was of the very emperor who was causing the heartache among Christians that Peter wrote these words, "Honor the emperor."

Then he talks on about servants.


Servants, be submissive to your masters. [Do not boycott them or riot against them or demonstrate]...not only to the kind and gentle but also to the overbearing. For one is approved if, mindful of God, he endures pain while suffering unjustly.
And then he reminds them of the example of the Lord Jesus. He says, "That is what he did." Verse 23:


When he was reviled, he did not revile in return.

He committed himself unto the Lord.
Then he moves from that into the home. Just as the Lord took the unjust treatment that was accorded to him, he says,


Likewise you wives, be submissive to your husbands.
---even though they are not always right.


Likewise you husbands, live considerately with your wives. (verse 7)
---even though they sometimes nag you and disturb you and bother you, "bestow honor on them," just as you Christians are to honor this monstrous wretch who sits on the throne of Rome, where Peter says: so you husbands should honor your wives. Verse 8:


Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
That is the mark of a Christian in society.

Then comes this difficult passage about spirits in prison and baptism now saving you and all these things many have struggled over. But the key to that whole passage in chapter 3 is verse 18.


For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God.
That is the key. He did this in order that he might bring us to God. Christ underwent suffering. He came in the flesh. He died in the flesh. He did all this that he might accomplish the great end that he might bring us to God.

Now this reminds Peter of the way the gospel was preached in Noah's day and how the Spirit of Christ, speaking through Noah, preached to the people of his day in order that he might bring them to God. But they refused, and so the ark came in as a picture of the life of the Lord Jesus Christ to carry them over the floods of judgment and bring them to God. Baptism, which is also a picture relating to the ark, now saves us just as the ark saved Noah. Baptism (not water baptism, and it says so, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but the baptism of the Spirit which puts us into the ark of safety, our Lord Jesus) is that which now saves us as an appeal to God from the clear conscience through the resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you read the passage in that light, I believe you will have no difficulty with it.

So Peter concludes this matter of suffering, exhorting the Christians to remember that though they walk in honesty and faithfulness to God, not living like the Gentiles do, and all of the biblical writers say this, "You are to no longer live like the Gentiles do but you are to return good for evil." That is the idea. We are not to be concerned about our own satisfaction and our own rights. We are so concerned aren't we, that we get what we have coming. This is the spirit of our age, that we get our rights, that everything we have coming, we receive. But this is not the spirit of a Christian, and we Christians must learn that and begin to operate on that level because until we start acting like Christians, we have no testimony at all before the law. If we start insisting upon our rights, even in little ways, we cancel out what witness we have.

You have perhaps read of the story of the boy who got concerned about all the work he had to do around the house. So one morning he laid beside his mother's breakfast plate a little list of things: for mowing the lawn, $1.00, for cleaning the room, 50 cents, for vacuuming the rug, 50 cents, and several other things and then he drew a total and put it down there and laid the bill beside his mother's plate. And she read it. She did not say anything. But the next morning he found a list beside his plate. It said: for washing your clothes, no charge; for fixing your meals, no charge; for taking care of your room, no charge, and a list of other things. And then she drew a total and wrote underneath, "No charge. Done out of love." She laid it beside his plate. That day he did everything he had to do in the house without a word of complaint. He got the point.

This is what a Christian is to do. He returns good for evil. And this letter of Peter's is to people who are undergoing real punishment.

The last section deals with life in the Body of Christ. It is a wonderfully helpful section that starts with chapter 4, verse 7


The end of all things is at hand;
And if that was applicable to his day, think what it is for today.


therefore...
What is the first thing now? What if the Lord came next year? What if we are at the end of the age? "The end of all things is at hand." What is the first thing that ought to be said? Well, Peter says it,


...keep sane and sober for your prayers. Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love covers a multitude of sins. Practice hospitality ungrudgingly to one another. As each has received a gift, employ it for one another, as good stewards of God's varied grace.
That is his program for the end of the age. It does not look tremendously impressive in the eyes of the world but it is tremendously impressive in the eyes of heaven. And this is what will accomplish the will of God---


...that in everything God may be glorified through Jesus Christ.
And then he speaks about the suffering and the way to rejoice, because we share Christ's sufferings---not to suffer as a wrongdoer but to rejoice in the fact that God is at work.

Peter then speaks of the mutual ministry of the elders to the members, and the members one to another. And he closes his letter (5:10):


And after you have suffered a little while, the God of all grace, who has called you to his eternal glory in Christ, will himself restore, establish, and strengthen you.
Can you ask anything better than that?


To him be the dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Well, those are wonderful words, aren't they, for people living in the close of an age? Let us take them to heart.


Prayer

Thank you, our Father, for this look from the first century to us in this twentieth century. We pray that these words which were true then and are still equally true today may find a response in our hearts, young and old alike. Lord, help us to remember that we are strangers and exiles. This is not our home, even though we are temporarily assigned here on duty. Help us to be faithful to you and obedient to your Word and responsive to your grace and your love until Him whom we have not yet seen but love with a full heart shall welcome us and restore to us more than all we could have ever dreamed of above that which we think has been taken away. We ask in his name, Amen.
C
No , Miks, I am not discouraged , but I know that if I step on the brake, you will step on the gas...so I did biggrin.gif
You are exactly right of course. We need both sides. I do find though that we tend to preach only the gas side and not the brake.People (its our nature) tend to avoid the judgement side.Its more "Jesus saved me and all is well" than holy living.The church do not teach (maybe its different where you are) overcoming sin here...they are not concerned with it.I have only heard one message on it and it was not very clear. We have a lot of money sermons (they all seem to have money problems in the last church I attended)
Its not popular to quote the "judgement "scriptures I know, but they are there for a reason.
love C
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