I recently did some research on ancient Gnosticism and compared it to the many modern teachings that are found in many Protestant churches. What I found is very disturbing...and shocking! This is why you will find it in the controvesial section. Please excuse the lengthiness but this is an old heresy that needs revisiting so we can recognize it.
Gnosticism in the Church!
Gnostcism in Brief History
Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine that the early church often battled. Gnosticism originally arose during the Hellenistic period through the Jewish Pharisees and Essenes. After, the birth of the church, their also arose a “christian” form of Gnosticism. These Gnostics borrowed from Jewish Gnostics and redefined and distorted church teachings. These “christian” Gnostic teachings were mixed with paganism, philosophy and mysticism. Gnostics through the help of the Essenes also would rewrite copies of church letters, or create false gospels to fit their teachings. Much of Gnosticism did not go away but merely went underground through various cults and secret societies. A good example of a Gnostic secret society is Freemasonry but there are a variety of others such as Manicheanism. The founder of “christian” Gnosticism began with Simon Magus mentioned in Acts.
What Do Gnostics Teach?
There may be some variation in what Gnostics believed or taught but there are classic examples that can be found. The teaching of Gnostics is directly anti-Christ in nature. Everything true in the Bible is the opposite for the Gnostic.
One must also understand that many Gnostics worship Lucifer knowingly. In Gnostic thinking, the God of the Old Testament is Satan(Demiurge), while the Serpant in the garden is the True God, Lucifer. They were the ultimate dualists, thus spirit was good and matter was evil. Mankind was created dualistically, thus when separated male was good and female was evil. The fleshly body and material world was seen as a prison, in which gnosis would release them from it. Thus, sin in the body of flesh meant nothing to them, in fact it was encouraged to achieve gnosis through sexual union. Mysticism and metaphorical allegory was also a key point in many of their teachings.
Gnostic Creation
In the Gnostic creation, the Demiurge was co-Creator of the world with Lucifer. The universe was a mere accident as light from Lucifer diffused into Aeons, and into a pantheon of gods. Adam was made an androgynous being in the image of God as a light body or pure spirit. However, Adam became fallen because he was drawn to matter by a trick from Demiurge. This trick entrapped Adam in a body split into male and female. Adam and Eve’s disobediance is painted as good by Gnostics. Thus, the Gnostic Lucifer was trying to help mankind by restoring them to their original state through the Tree of Knowledge and Tree of Life. The latter of course was thwarted by Demiurge who kept Adam and Eve from immortality and to keep them enslaved. However, Lucifer in his struggle against Demiurge wishes for mankind to be redeemed through Gnosis. Once collective Gnosis is attained mankind will rule the universe as “gods”.
Gnostic Jesus
The teachings of Jesus may vary and possibly morphed over the centuries. However, central Gnostic thought goes like this. The Virgin Birth was not a result of Mary’s conceiving by the Holy Spirit. Rather Jesus was simply born a divine spark or emanation having a part of the Godhead; incarnated as Logos. So Jesus came in the form of a spirit that appeared to be flesh. However, Jesus first needed to be redeemed through the process of Gnosis. So Jesus became illuminated and his fulness began. The physical crucifixion only appeared real because Jesus was a spirit. Thus Jesus died spiritually and crossed the abyss as proof he was redeemed. Thus, Jesus was one earth as an example to teach gnosis redemption to mankind. Many also taught Jesus married Mary Magdalene. Thus, we can identify what Apostle John was writing about when he said concerning the spirit of antichrist. He was directly referring to the Gnostics.
Gnostic Redemption
The Gnostic believed that redemption was a result of resurrection, called renascence. The Gnostics denied a bodily resurrection of the saints. They redefined the meaning of resurrection by allegorizing the true scriptural interpretation. To a Gnostic, resurrection was the process of Gnosis on an individual basis. The word Gnosis means “knowledge” as in revelation knowledge of God. This was the goal and the ultimate experience for a Gnostic and seen as necessary for continued growth in the process of redemption. The power of the spoken word was very important to Gnostics. Since, God and all gods were not sovereign in the earth, words were seen as a creative force that subjected them to the will of man. In this thinking the Gnostic believed they could manifest things into being. Mystical visions and experience were seen as enlightenment. Basically, experience and revelation was ultimate over truth. Thus, the Gnostic was ever seeking the new thing for inner-consiousness to get to that higher spiritual plane. Ultimate Gnostic destiny was corporate redemption leading to rulership over the universe ushering the Edenic state on earth.
Gnosticm in the Church
It is very disturbing to think that a church could adopt Luciferian teachings in any thinking. However, frightening as it may be I find it overwhelmingly true. Much of the church today is being infiltrated by Gnostics and has been for quite sometime. Unfortunately, Gnosticism has the ability to play chameleon and adapt terminology without losing distinct core teachings. Satan often leads many astray through false teaching and deception. I believe much of this is very deliberate by initiates of Gnostic tradition disguised as apostles and teachers used by Satan. This is due to the modern church not recognizing the enemy. Satan of course, rarely comes knocking on the front door in his true nature. He would rather come dressed as a beautiful angel of light. Likewise, Gnostics use seduction by mixing error with truth. In order to seduce Gnosticism comes dressed up as “Christian”. First, they will introduce things that are seemingly innocent such as a new revelation from God. Overtime, more Gnostic teaching is introduced until one is thoroughly poisoned not knowing the difference. I find most of these teachings are surfacing in the Full Gospel and Charismatic movements, but are not necessarily limited to them either. Some may not realize that they are teaching Gnostic doctrine. However, I do think many leaders are aware and actively and shamelessly promoting it. An example of this is Rick Joyner; a member of the Gnostic order called Knights of Malta.
The literal definition of Gnosticism is summed up as the following:
“A religious movement in which central importance was attached to the gnosis, or revelation knowledge, of God and of the origin and destiny of mankind. The source of this special gnosis or knowledge was held to be either the Apostles from whom it was derived by a secret tradition, or by a direct revelation." - Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church
Post continued below....
Comparison of Church statements to Gnostics:
1) Revelation is received in the mind elevating oneself to the Divine.
“Paul called for Transformation, transformation in all these areas. Where does this transformation begin? Right, it begins in your mind. Each of us must renew our mind daily, constantly breaking off the old patterns and hearing God for His new pattern. This must happen in every area of your life, only then will you be able to receive fresh revelation from God for His seasons. Don’t guard your mind from change. Rather, renew your mind with Revelation!” (Naomi Dowdy, Apostolic Heartbeat - 14th May 2005)
2) Experiencing is personal and essential, both physical and mystical.
“What happens is, there's a transference of His anointing where, not only do you see it, not only do you experience it for yourself, but you're going to take it home to your people." (John Arnott, Pastor of the Toronto Airport Fellowship, pastor's Meeting, October 19, 1994)
“I finally start to ask Carol, "Honey, what do you feel?" (Carol), "Oh, it's just wonderful." (Arnott), 'Well, help me," you know, and so she says, "Now, just tune in," and so I'd be tuned in and I'm there, going like this,...and maybe I'd even start weaving a little bit, and I'm thinking "Lord, do I feel something on my hands or am I just making this up? Is there something here or am I so wanting this?"...And Carol would say, "No, no, I can feel Him going in, I can feel Him going in, Just keep focused!" You know and then...she'd say, "Oops, where did you go?" I'd say, "What do you mean?" She'd say, "I feel it coming back on me, where did you go?" And I would realize my mind had drifted off again someplace." (John Arnott, Receiving the Spirit's Power)
3) Revelation can be passed down from higher learned teachers.
“They have fresh revelation from God. In such a book there's a newness to what is written, bringing us Biblical insights that have an immediate impact on the way we see and the way we live. They do more than say "amen" to what we already know. By nature they challenge and invite us, all in the same breath. This book is packed with revelation.”(Bill Johnson on Elijah List- for Jim Goll books-2006)
4) Revelation is found in secret places or teachings.
“This is truly a day of new beginnings and new anointing for those who have accepted and embraced the fire of consecration. The key to this new anointing is “remain in the tabernacle” for the anointing oil of the Lord is upon you. Those who embrace the secret place of His presence, and consecrate themselves as New Testament priests, will enter a season of new beginnings and receive a new, fresh anointing on their lives.”(Todd Bentley, May 2, 2006-FreshFire Ministries)
5) Gnosis experience is for the chosen few or initiated.
“And the Outer Court - we all enjoy that Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, all of us should know we were in that - but then the Lord said "Think not that I came to bring peace but rather division", so he divides some of us out of the Outer Court and puts us in the Holy Place, gives us the baptism of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit are there, and all these supernatural things are there, so that brings a distinction, a division between the Outer Court and the Holy Place.” (Paul Cain- On Ezekiel 47)
We can see this very definition active in the Charismatic world. Often, gifts are exalted above the word of God. How many teachers are coming forth with a “new revelation” from God? How many Christian books claim to teach hidden secrets or claim mystical experiences? How many are claiming you can receive “new anointings”? To so many engrossed in this movement, the manifestation and experience is confirmation of truth, rather than biblical testing of spirits. When one defines things on revelatory experience over the word of God it leads down the road to Gnosticism. Unfortunately, it does not stop at this mere central definition. If you are not convinced consider these other statements made by church and movement leaders of today in comparison with Gnostic quotes. Further evidence of Gnostic teachings in the church are provided in comparison to these false teachings.
Further post continued...
Church quote comparisons to Gnostics:
Gnostics taught that the biblical God was inferior.
“What kind of God is this? First of all, he spitefully disallowed Adam from eating of the tree of knowledge; and secondly, he said, “Adam, where are you?” Doesn’t God know everything? (The Testimony of Truth)
The leader of the principalities said, “Adam, where are you?” because he didn’t know. (The Hypostasis of the Archons)
Compare to these false Church teachings:
“I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is everybody you ask, "Who's the biggest failure?" They say "Judas", somebody else will say, "No, I believe it was Adam", well how about the devil. He's the most consistent failure. But he's not the biggest in terms of material failure and so forth. The biggest one in all the Bible is God. What, what, what - don't you turn that set off - you listen to what. I told you - now you sit still a minute. You know me well enough to know I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell something I can't prove from the Bible." (Kenneth Copeland – TBN, April 1998)
Gnostics taught Adam’s fallen nature was due to bodily transformation.
Compare to this false Church statement:
“Holy Spirit said something to me and I had to go like a mad man and looking in the Word. He says, ‘God’s original plan is that the woman was to bring forth children out of her side.’ What? You know that there is nowhere in the Bible but where God gives birth out of His side. Jesus gives birth to the church out of His side. Adam gives birth to his wife out of his side. It was sin that turned the thing around. And it was sin that transformed her flesh and her body." (Transcribed From A Message Given By Benny Hinn, Paw Creek Ministries)
Gnostics taught that Eve had demonic children.
“She (Eve) became pregnant with Abel by the first archangel, and she also had the rest of her kids from the seven angels and principalities.”(On the Origin of the World)
“The head prince seduced Eve and impregnated her with two sons…”(Apocalypse of John)
Compare to Oneness-Pentecostalism:
“Here is what actually happened in the Garden of Eden. The Word says that Eve was beguiled by the serpent. She was actually seduced by the serpent. He was as close to being a human that his seed could, and did mingle with that of the woman and cause her to conceive" (William Branham, The Original Sin, pp. 2, 3)
“William Branham said that Eve's sin involved sexual relations with the serpent, but the "seed of God" were Branham's followers, otherwise known as "the Bride" or "the New Breed" (The Toronto Blessing, Stephen Sizer, 1990)
Gnostics invented the idea of Modalism
“Christ said, I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son.”(Apocryphon of John)
Compare to Oneness Pentecostals:
"Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is offices of one God. He was the Father; He was the Son; He is the Holy Ghost. It's three offices or three dispensations,..." (William Branham, Conduct, Order, Doctrine Q and A, p. 392).
Gnostics taught that we are “gods”.
“We were made in the image of immortal angels. We were better than the god who created us.”(Apocalypse of Adam)
“Thereupon, the Holy Spirit took him way up to the third heaven as He was speaking, and then he graduated into the fourth heaven… I saw a mighty angel in the fifth heaven… then we went up to the sixth heaven… then we went up to the seventh heaven and saw an elderly man (God) in light and white clothing… the old man said to me, “How can you escape me? See all my powers and principalities?” The Spirit said, “Show him your sign and he will allow you to pass.” I showed him my sign, and he turned away and looked down at his creation and his own potentates. We graduated to the eighth… then to the ninth… and then we ascended to the tenth.”(Apocalypse of Paul)
Compare these false teachings in Churches:
Man is a spirit who possesses a soul and lives in a body...., He is in the same class with God. ...We know that God is a Spirit. And yet [He] took upon Himself a man's body....when God took upon Himself human form, He was no less God than when He didn't have a body. Man, at physical death, leaves his as he was when he had his body." (Kenneth Hagin, Man of Three Dimensions)
"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ" (Kenneth Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life, 1989. pp. 35-36, 41)
“Christians are "Little Messiah's and "little gods" on the earth. Thus [Encouraging the audience]...say "I am a God-man....This spirit-man within me is a God-man..." say "I'm born of heaven-a God-man. I'm a God man. I am a sample of Jesus. I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? "I walk in the realm of the supernatural." Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you, for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, "everything I ever want is in me already." (Benny Hinn, TBN, 1990
Gnostics taught Jesus died spiritually and took on Satan’s nature.
“The Savior said to me, “The one you saw laughing heartily on a tree is the living Jesus. The one into whose hands and feet they drive nails is only the fleshly part… the one they crucify went to (or is) the firstborn dwelling of demons.”(Apocalypse of Paul)
Compare to this false teaching in the Church!
“Christ 'became one with the nature of Satan' and was 'born again' in hell” (Benny Hinn -Adapted from a 1992 Media Spotlight Special)
“Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God." (Kenneth Hagin, "How Jesus obtained His Name" (Kenneth Hagin Ministries, audio tape #44-H01)
Gnostics teach Words are sacred.
"And consonants exist with the vowels, and individually
they are commanded and they submit… And the consonants are self-existent, and as they are changed, they submit to the hidden gods…."(Marsenes)
"But the Decad from Word and Life brought forth decads so as to make the Pleroma(Fulness) become a hundred, and the Dodecad from Man and Church brought forth and made the Triacontad so as to make the three hundred sixty become the Pleroma (Fulness) of the year." (A Valentinian Exposition)
Compare to this false Church teaching:
“Yes! You are in control! So, if man has control, who no longer has it? God" (Fred Price, "Prayer: Do You Know What Prayer Is...and How to Pray?," The Word Study Bible, 1990. p. 1178).
“You need to understand friends, your words are like containers. When they come up out of the innermost part of your belly, out of the heart, the mouth speaketh. As these things come out of your heart, they are spirits, by the time the come out of your mouth, that spirit is encapsulated in some little package and when you begin to speak this stuff out whether it is good or evil, it comes out in the way of little containers in your home and it goes out in your home and it begins to burst. As they burst life is either released or death is released. Blessings are released or cursings are released." (John Kilpatrick, Glory on Your House, 1997)
“You create the presence of Jesus with your mouth ... He is bound by your lips and by your words ... Remember that Christ is depending upon you and your spoken word to release His presence." (Paul Yonggi Cho, The Fourth Dimension, Volume One (So. Plainfield, NJ: Bridge Publishing, 1979), 83)
Words are the most sacred things....This is a word planet...governed by words...created by words....Words cause it to function...cause life...cause death....Words go on forever....Words are holy." (Kenneth Copeland, The Abrahamic Covenant, side 1.)
.”The anointing is dependent upon my words. God will not move unless I say it. Why? Because He has made us coworkers with Him. He set things up that way." (Benny Hinn,-The Anointing. Nashville: Thomas Nelson. 1992)
Gnostics believe words have power and did chants. (Called “Enochian” and are false tongues)
“PHOE ZOE ZEOE … ZOSI ZOSI ZAO ZEOOO ZESEN ZESEN the persons who are four and eight live! EOOOO EAEOO … they are inside the perfect male.”( Zostrianos)
"A hidden, invisible mystery came forth: iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
oooooooooooooooooooooo uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO." (The Gospel of the Egyptians -the 7 vowels, are repeated 22 times each)
Compare to this eyewitness account at Brownsville:
“After John Kilpatrick completed his anecdotal stories about manifestations, things went from bad to worse. His "speaking in tongues" for a long period without an interpretation was a red flag. I guess that what he was doing would have been labeled "speaking in tongues," but it sounded more like an Indian chant "Oo-ee-ah-oo-ee" (with occasional "whoosh" and "shew . . . Holy Ghost" sounds made into the microphone etc.). This "chanting" went on for a period of over twenty minutes.” (I Experienced the "Pensacola Outpouring" and Came Home Crying Tears and Praying, Shawn Paul Sauve, 1997)
Gnostics denied a literal resurrection.
“Some say, “We will surely rise in the resurrection on the last day,” but they don’t know what they are talking about... so don’t expect a bodily resurrection.”( The Apocryphon of John)
“Some think the Lord first died and was later resurrected. They are wrong. In reality, he was resurrected first and then died… for “Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (The Gospel of Philip)
Compare to Latter-Rain Teachings:
“The rapture idea is ridiculous…One has to conclude that the secret rapture theory may be evangelical, but is nonetheless unbiblical. It is a grotesque idea-the rapture may be the most agreeable to cowards, but it is nothing better than wishful thinking and must be relegated to the area of myth and fantasy.”- Bill Britton
“… the entire thrust of scripture is that we will have a resurrected body on earth, and that the heavens and the earth will be regenerated and renewed (Acts 3:21, Matt. 19:28). If there is to be a bodily removal of the saints at all, it can only be temporary.” “The statement “and thus we shall always be with the Lord” tend to suggest, at least to me that we will always be in the “caught up” state, i.e., we will be in heavenly places with Him from this point onward, and forevermore. To my way of thinking, we can be in heavenly places while we are still on this earth.”-(Richard Riss- Latter Rain Teaching)
Gnostics taught concept of Corporate Redemption.
“I am the bride and the groom, and my husband gave birth to me. I am the mother of my father, the sister of my husband, and he is my child.”(The Thunder, Perfect Mind)
"But the Decad from Word and Life brought forth decads so as to make the Pleroma(Fulness) become a hundred, and the Dodecad from Man and Church brought forth and made the Triacontad(a replica of Logos-the Christ) so as to make the three hundred sixty become the Pleroma (Fulness) of the year(season)." (A Valentinian Exposition)
Compare the Latter-Rain Manchild teaching:
“…the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which shall bring the Fulness, a company of overcoming Sons of God who have come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, to actually dethrone Satan, casting him out of the heavenlies, and finally binding him in the earthlies, bringing hope of deliverance and life to all the families of the earth.” “This great work of the Spirit shall usher a people into full redemption- free from the curse, sin, sickness, and death.”(Bill Britton)
Gnostics taught Poverty was lack of knowing God’s kingdom.
"The kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
Compare to the Prosperity Messages:
“Our Goal is as simple as it is strategic: To create wealth! And empower our people to steward that wealth for the purposes of the kingdom, the strengthening of their communities and for the economic well being of their children’s children.”(Bishop Herald and Brenda Ray)
"Poverty is from the devil and that God wants all Christians prosperous." (Benny Hinn, TBN, 11/6/90)
“The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see - to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you - thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps.” (Fred Price, TBN- December 9, 1990.)
"Being poor is a sin, when God promises prosperity. New house? New car? That's chicken feed. That's nothing compared to what God wants to do for you"(Robert Tilton)
Gnostics were fascinated with powers of Jewels:
“In Gnostic lore, Lucifer’s jewels became “oracles” for mankind to receive enlightenment, the forbidden knowledge or gnosis. Gnostics believe that a jewel or stone that fell from the crown of Lucifer became the “Holy Grail” or the Philosopher’s Stone, which “symbolises the transmutation of the lower animal nature of man into the highest and divine.” (Madame Blavatsky)
"The stone, also referred to as the "tincture," or the "powder" (Greek xerion, which passed through Latin into Arabic as elixir), was allied to an elixir of life, believed by alchemists to be a liquid derived from it. Inasmuch as alchemy was concerned not only with the search for a method of upgrading less valuable metals but also of perfecting the human soul, the philosopher's stone was thought to cure illnesses, prolong life, and bring about spiritual revitalization. The philosopher's stone, described variously, was sometimes said to be a common substance, found everywhere but unrecognized and unappreciated." (Encyc. Brit., 15th ed., 1976)
Compare to Rick Joyner’s visions:
"Then my eyes fell on a beautiful green stone. 'What does that one have in it?' I asked the angel standing nearby. "'All of these stones are the treasures of salvation. You are now touching the heavenly realm, and that one is the restoration of life,”he continued. As I touched the green stone I began to see the earth in rich and spectacular colors. They grew in richness the longer I had my hand on the stone, and my love for all that I saw also grew. Then I began to see a harmony between all living things on a level that I had never seen before. Then I began to see the glory of the Lord in the creation. It began to grow until again I had to step away because of the intensity." (Rick Joyner, The Final Quest, p. 68-69.)
Gnostics Teach God is Bisexual & Adam was too
“I am both male and female. I am Mother and I am Father…” (Trimorphic Protennoia)
“Then the All Glorious One, Youel, spoke to me again. She gave me a revelation…” (Allogenes)
“The Demiurge(God) created man in his image”.( A Valentinian Exposition)
Compare to this heretical Church Teaching.
“Then, he created Eve out of Adam. Now, actually God didn’t name her Eve, Adam named her Eve later. That wasn’t her name, her name was Adam . . . Adam. When God said Adam, they both came. Their authority was one and the same together. They did everything together. They had always been together. Even when she was still part of him, he was as much female as he was male, LIKE GOD IS. And God separated the female part of him and then put them back together. And she was Adam, they were Adam. He was the man, she was the woman. She was the man with the womb." (Transcribed From A Message Given By Kenneth Copeland, Paw Creek Ministries)
“God is not only ‘male,’ He is ‘female.’ One of His names is El-Shaddai, which means ‘Mother-God.’ We see the completeness of God only as we realize this truth. He is both male and female… So when God created Adam, He made him like himself, creating in him the male and female characteristics.” (Gwen Shaw- Love, the Law of the Angels)
“God had created Adam male and female. If God created man male and female, it was because bisexuality somehow belongs to His own nature. The fact has been recognized by early rabbinic commentators that this is true.” (Gwen Shaw-Love the Law of the Angels, p. 165)
[quote name='1LikeDeborah' date='Dec 18 2006, 12:11 AM' post='95862']
I recently did some research on ancient Gnosticism and compared it to the many modern teachings that are found in many Protestant churches. What I found is very disturbing...and shocking! This is why you will find it in the controvesial section. Please excuse the lengthiness but this is an old heresy that needs revisiting so we can recognize it.
Gnosticism in the Church!
Gnostcism in Brief History
Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine that the early church often battled. Gnosticism originally arose during the Hellenistic period through the Jewish Pharisees and Essenes. After, the birth of the church, their also arose a “christian” form of Gnosticism. These Gnostics borrowed from Jewish Gnostics and redefined and distorted church teachings. These “christian” Gnostic teachings were mixed with paganism, philosophy and mysticism. Gnostics through the help of the Essenes also would rewrite copies of church letters, or create false gospels to fit their teachings. Much of Gnosticism did not go away but merely went underground through various cults and secret societies. A good example of a Gnostic secret society is Freemasonry but there are a variety of others such as Manicheanism. The founder of “christian” Gnosticism began with Simon Magus mentioned in Acts.
What Do Gnostics Teach?
There may be some variation in what Gnostics believed or taught but there are classic examples that can be found. The teaching of Gnostics is directly anti-Christ in nature. Everything true in the Bible is the opposite for the Gnostic.
One must also understand that many Gnostics worship Lucifer knowingly. In Gnostic thinking, the God of the Old Testament is Satan(Demiurge), while the Serpant in the garden is the True God, Lucifer. They were the ultimate dualists, thus spirit was good and matter was evil. Mankind was created dualistically, thus when separated male was good and female was evil. The fleshly body and material world was seen as a prison, in which gnosis would release them from it. Thus, sin in the body of flesh meant nothing to them, in fact it was encouraged to achieve gnosis through sexual union. Mysticism and metaphorical allegory was also a key point in many of their teachings.
Gnostic Creation
In the Gnostic creation, the Demiurge was co-Creator of the world with Lucifer. The universe was a mere accident as light from Lucifer diffused into Aeons, and into a pantheon of gods. Adam was made an androgynous being in the image of God as a light body or pure spirit. However, Adam became fallen because he was drawn to matter by a trick from Demiurge. This trick entrapped Adam in a body split into male and female. Adam and Eve’s disobediance is painted as good by Gnostics. Thus, the Gnostic Lucifer was trying to help mankind by restoring them to their original state through the Tree of Knowledge and Tree of Life. The latter of course was thwarted by Demiurge who kept Adam and Eve from immortality and to keep them enslaved. However, Lucifer in his struggle against Demiurge wishes for mankind to be redeemed through Gnosis. Once collective Gnosis is attained mankind will rule the universe as “gods”.
Gnostic Jesus
The teachings of Jesus may vary and possibly morphed over the centuries. However, central Gnostic thought goes like this. The Virgin Birth was not a result of Mary’s conceiving by the Holy Spirit. Rather Jesus was simply born a divine spark or emanation having a part of the Godhead; incarnated as Logos. So Jesus came in the form of a spirit that appeared to be flesh. However, Jesus first needed to be redeemed through the process of Gnosis. So Jesus became illuminated and his fulness began. The physical crucifixion only appeared real because Jesus was a spirit. Thus Jesus died spiritually and crossed the abyss as proof he was redeemed. Thus, Jesus was one earth as an example to teach gnosis redemption to mankind. Many also taught Jesus married Mary Magdalene. Thus, we can identify what Apostle John was writing about when he said concerning the spirit of antichrist. He was directly referring to the Gnostics.
Gnostic Redemption
The Gnostic believed that redemption was a result of resurrection, called renascence. The Gnostics denied a bodily resurrection of the saints. They redefined the meaning of resurrection by allegorizing the true scriptural interpretation. To a Gnostic, resurrection was the process of Gnosis on an individual basis. The word Gnosis means “knowledge” as in revelation knowledge of God. This was the goal and the ultimate experience for a Gnostic and seen as necessary for continued growth in the process of redemption. The power of the spoken word was very important to Gnostics. Since, God and all gods were not sovereign in the earth, words were seen as a creative force that subjected them to the will of man. In this thinking the Gnostic believed they could manifest things into being. Mystical visions and experience were seen as enlightenment. Basically, experience and revelation was ultimate over truth. Thus, the Gnostic was ever seeking the new thing for inner-consiousness to get to that higher spiritual plane. Ultimate Gnostic destiny was corporate redemption leading to rulership over the universe ushering the Edenic state on earth.
Gnosticm in the Church
It is very disturbing to think that a church could adopt Luciferian teachings in any thinking. However, frightening as it may be I find it overwhelmingly true. Much of the church today is being infiltrated by Gnostics and has been for quite sometime. Unfortunately, Gnosticism has the ability to play chameleon and adapt terminology without losing distinct core teachings. Satan often leads many astray through false teaching and deception. I believe much of this is very deliberate by initiates of Gnostic tradition disguised as apostles and teachers used by Satan. This is due to the modern church not recognizing the enemy. Satan of course, rarely comes knocking on the front door in his true nature. He would rather come dressed as a beautiful angel of light. Likewise, Gnostics use seduction by mixing error with truth. In order to seduce Gnosticism comes dressed up as “Christian”. First, they will introduce things that are seemingly innocent such as a new revelation from God. Overtime, more Gnostic teaching is introduced until one is thoroughly poisoned not knowing the difference. I find most of these teachings are surfacing in the Full Gospel and Charismatic movements, but are not necessarily limited to them either. Some may not realize that they are teaching Gnostic doctrine. However, I do think many leaders are aware and actively and shamelessly promoting it. An example of this is Rick Joyner; a member of the Gnostic order called Knights of Malta.
The literal definition of Gnosticism is summed up as the following:
“A religious movement in which central importance was attached to the gnosis, or revelation knowledge, of God and of the origin and destiny of mankind. The source of this special gnosis or knowledge was held to be either the Apostles from whom it was derived by a secret tradition, or by a direct revelation." - Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church
Post continued below....
Comparison of Church statements to Gnostics:
1) Revelation is received in the mind elevating oneself to the Divine.
“Paul called for Transformation, transformation in all these areas. Where does this transformation begin? Right, it begins in your mind. Each of us must renew our mind daily, constantly breaking off the old patterns and hearing God for His new pattern. This must happen in every area of your life, only then will you be able to receive fresh revelation from God for His seasons. Don’t guard your mind from change. Rather, renew your mind with Revelation!” (Naomi Dowdy, Apostolic Heartbeat - 14th May 2005)
2) Experiencing is personal and essential, both physical and mystical.
“What happens is, there's a transference of His anointing where, not only do you see it, not only do you experience it for yourself, but you're going to take it home to your people." (John Arnott, Pastor of the Toronto Airport Fellowship, pastor's Meeting, October 19, 1994)
“I finally start to ask Carol, "Honey, what do you feel?" (Carol), "Oh, it's just wonderful." (Arnott), 'Well, help me," you know, and so she says, "Now, just tune in," and so I'd be tuned in and I'm there, going like this,...and maybe I'd even start weaving a little bit, and I'm thinking "Lord, do I feel something on my hands or am I just making this up? Is there something here or am I so wanting this?"...And Carol would say, "No, no, I can feel Him going in, I can feel Him going in, Just keep focused!" You know and then...she'd say, "Oops, where did you go?" I'd say, "What do you mean?" She'd say, "I feel it coming back on me, where did you go?" And I would realize my mind had drifted off again someplace." (John Arnott, Receiving the Spirit's Power)
3) Revelation can be passed down from higher learned teachers.
“They have fresh revelation from God. In such a book there's a newness to what is written, bringing us Biblical insights that have an immediate impact on the way we see and the way we live. They do more than say "amen" to what we already know. By nature they challenge and invite us, all in the same breath. This book is packed with revelation.”(Bill Johnson on Elijah List- for Jim Goll books-2006)
4) Revelation is found in secret places or teachings.
“This is truly a day of new beginnings and new anointing for those who have accepted and embraced the fire of consecration. The key to this new anointing is “remain in the tabernacle” for the anointing oil of the Lord is upon you. Those who embrace the secret place of His presence, and consecrate themselves as New Testament priests, will enter a season of new beginnings and receive a new, fresh anointing on their lives.”(Todd Bentley, May 2, 2006-FreshFire Ministries)
5) Gnosis experience is for the chosen few or initiated.
“And the Outer Court - we all enjoy that Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, all of us should know we were in that - but then the Lord said "Think not that I came to bring peace but rather division", so he divides some of us out of the Outer Court and puts us in the Holy Place, gives us the baptism of the Spirit, the gifts of the Spirit are there, and all these supernatural things are there, so that brings a distinction, a division between the Outer Court and the Holy Place.” (Paul Cain- On Ezekiel 47)
We can see this very definition active in the Charismatic world. Often, gifts are exalted above the word of God. How many teachers are coming forth with a “new revelation” from God? How many Christian books claim to teach hidden secrets or claim mystical experiences? How many are claiming you can receive “new anointings”? To so many engrossed in this movement, the manifestation and experience is confirmation of truth, rather than biblical testing of spirits. When one defines things on revelatory experience over the word of God it leads down the road to Gnosticism. Unfortunately, it does not stop at this mere central definition. If you are not convinced consider these other statements made by church and movement leaders of today in comparison with Gnostic quotes. Further evidence of Gnostic teachings in the church are provided in comparison to these false teachings.
Further post continued...
Church quote comparisons to Gnostics:
Gnostics taught that the biblical God was inferior.
“What kind of God is this? First of all, he spitefully disallowed Adam from eating of the tree of knowledge; and secondly, he said, “Adam, where are you?” Doesn’t God know everything? (The Testimony of Truth)
The leader of the principalities said, “Adam, where are you?” because he didn’t know. (The Hypostasis of the Archons)
Compare to these false Church teachings:
“I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is everybody you ask, "Who's the biggest failure?" They say "Judas", somebody else will say, "No, I believe it was Adam", well how about the devil. He's the most consistent failure. But he's not the biggest in terms of material failure and so forth. The biggest one in all the Bible is God. What, what, what - don't you turn that set off - you listen to what. I told you - now you sit still a minute. You know me well enough to know I wouldn't, I wouldn't tell something I can't prove from the Bible." (Kenneth Copeland – TBN, April 1998)
Gnostics taught Adam’s fallen nature was due to bodily transformation.
Compare to this false Church statement:
“Holy Spirit said something to me and I had to go like a mad man and looking in the Word. He says, ‘God’s original plan is that the woman was to bring forth children out of her side.’ What? You know that there is nowhere in the Bible but where God gives birth out of His side. Jesus gives birth to the church out of His side. Adam gives birth to his wife out of his side. It was sin that turned the thing around. And it was sin that transformed her flesh and her body." (Transcribed From A Message Given By Benny Hinn, Paw Creek Ministries)
Gnostics taught that Eve had demonic children.
“She (Eve) became pregnant with Abel by the first archangel, and she also had the rest of her kids from the seven angels and principalities.”(On the Origin of the World)
“The head prince seduced Eve and impregnated her with two sons…”(Apocalypse of John)
Compare to Oneness-Pentecostalism:
“Here is what actually happened in the Garden of Eden. The Word says that Eve was beguiled by the serpent. She was actually seduced by the serpent. He was as close to being a human that his seed could, and did mingle with that of the woman and cause her to conceive" (William Branham, The Original Sin, pp. 2, 3)
“William Branham said that Eve's sin involved sexual relations with the serpent, but the "seed of God" were Branham's followers, otherwise known as "the Bride" or "the New Breed" (The Toronto Blessing, Stephen Sizer, 1990)
Gnostics invented the idea of Modalism
“Christ said, I am the Father, I am the Mother, I am the Son.”(Apocryphon of John)
Compare to Oneness Pentecostals:
"Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is offices of one God. He was the Father; He was the Son; He is the Holy Ghost. It's three offices or three dispensations,..." (William Branham, Conduct, Order, Doctrine Q and A, p. 392).
Gnostics taught that we are “gods”.
“We were made in the image of immortal angels. We were better than the god who created us.”(Apocalypse of Adam)
“Thereupon, the Holy Spirit took him way up to the third heaven as He was speaking, and then he graduated into the fourth heaven… I saw a mighty angel in the fifth heaven… then we went up to the sixth heaven… then we went up to the seventh heaven and saw an elderly man (God) in light and white clothing… the old man said to me, “How can you escape me? See all my powers and principalities?” The Spirit said, “Show him your sign and he will allow you to pass.” I showed him my sign, and he turned away and looked down at his creation and his own potentates. We graduated to the eighth… then to the ninth… and then we ascended to the tenth.”(Apocalypse of Paul)
Compare these false teachings in Churches:
Man is a spirit who possesses a soul and lives in a body...., He is in the same class with God. ...We know that God is a Spirit. And yet [He] took upon Himself a man's body....when God took upon Himself human form, He was no less God than when He didn't have a body. Man, at physical death, leaves his as he was when he had his body." (Kenneth Hagin, Man of Three Dimensions)
"[Man] was created on terms of equality with God, and he could stand in God's presence without any consciousness of inferiority...God made us as much like Himself as possible...He made us the same class of being that He is Himself...Man lived in the realm of God. He lived on terms equal with God...[The] believer is called Christ...That's who we are; we're Christ" (Kenneth Hagin, Zoe: The God-Kind of Life, 1989. pp. 35-36, 41)
“Christians are "Little Messiah's and "little gods" on the earth. Thus [Encouraging the audience]...say "I am a God-man....This spirit-man within me is a God-man..." say "I'm born of heaven-a God-man. I'm a God man. I am a sample of Jesus. I'm a super being. Say it! Say it! Who's a super being? "I walk in the realm of the supernatural." Say it!...You want to prosper? Money will be falling on you from left, right and centre. God will begin to prosper you, for money always follows righteousness....Say after me, "everything I ever want is in me already." (Benny Hinn, TBN, 1990
Gnostics taught Jesus died spiritually and took on Satan’s nature.
“The Savior said to me, “The one you saw laughing heartily on a tree is the living Jesus. The one into whose hands and feet they drive nails is only the fleshly part… the one they crucify went to (or is) the firstborn dwelling of demons.”(Apocalypse of Paul)
Compare to this false teaching in the Church!
“Christ 'became one with the nature of Satan' and was 'born again' in hell” (Benny Hinn -Adapted from a 1992 Media Spotlight Special)
“Why did He need to be begotten or born? Because He became like we were - separated from God. Because He tasted spiritual death for every man. And His spirit and inner men went to hell in my place. Can't you see that? Physical death wouldn't remove your sins. He's tasted death for every man. He's talking about tasting spiritual death. Jesus is the first person that was ever born again. Why did His spirit need to be born again? Because it was estranged from God." (Kenneth Hagin, "How Jesus obtained His Name" (Kenneth Hagin Ministries, audio tape #44-H01)
Gnostics teach Words are sacred.
"And consonants exist with the vowels, and individually
they are commanded and they submit… And the consonants are self-existent, and as they are changed, they submit to the hidden gods…."(Marsenes)
"But the Decad from Word and Life brought forth decads so as to make the Pleroma(Fulness) become a hundred, and the Dodecad from Man and Church brought forth and made the Triacontad so as to make the three hundred sixty become the Pleroma (Fulness) of the year." (A Valentinian Exposition)
Compare to this false Church teaching:
“Yes! You are in control! So, if man has control, who no longer has it? God" (Fred Price, "Prayer: Do You Know What Prayer Is...and How to Pray?," The Word Study Bible, 1990. p. 1178).
“You need to understand friends, your words are like containers. When they come up out of the innermost part of your belly, out of the heart, the mouth speaketh. As these things come out of your heart, they are spirits, by the time the come out of your mouth, that spirit is encapsulated in some little package and when you begin to speak this stuff out whether it is good or evil, it comes out in the way of little containers in your home and it goes out in your home and it begins to burst. As they burst life is either released or death is released. Blessings are released or cursings are released." (John Kilpatrick, Glory on Your House, 1997)
“You create the presence of Jesus with your mouth ... He is bound by your lips and by your words ... Remember that Christ is depending upon you and your spoken word to release His presence." (Paul Yonggi Cho, The Fourth Dimension, Volume One (So. Plainfield, NJ: Bridge Publishing, 1979), 83)
Words are the most sacred things....This is a word planet...governed by words...created by words....Words cause it to function...cause life...cause death....Words go on forever....Words are holy." (Kenneth Copeland, The Abrahamic Covenant, side 1.)
.”The anointing is dependent upon my words. God will not move unless I say it. Why? Because He has made us coworkers with Him. He set things up that way." (Benny Hinn,-The Anointing. Nashville: Thomas Nelson. 1992)
Gnostics believe words have power and did chants. (Called “Enochian” and are false tongues)
“PHOE ZOE ZEOE … ZOSI ZOSI ZAO ZEOOO ZESEN ZESEN the persons who are four and eight live! EOOOO EAEOO … they are inside the perfect male.”( Zostrianos)
"A hidden, invisible mystery came forth: iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
oooooooooooooooooooooo uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO." (The Gospel of the Egyptians -the 7 vowels, are repeated 22 times each)
Compare to this eyewitness account at Brownsville:
“After John Kilpatrick completed his anecdotal stories about manifestations, things went from bad to worse. His "speaking in tongues" for a long period without an interpretation was a red flag. I guess that what he was doing would have been labeled "speaking in tongues," but it sounded more like an Indian chant "Oo-ee-ah-oo-ee" (with occasional "whoosh" and "shew . . . Holy Ghost" sounds made into the microphone etc.). This "chanting" went on for a period of over twenty minutes.” (I Experienced the "Pensacola Outpouring" and Came Home Crying Tears and Praying, Shawn Paul Sauve, 1997)
Gnostics denied a literal resurrection.
“Some say, “We will surely rise in the resurrection on the last day,” but they don’t know what they are talking about... so don’t expect a bodily resurrection.”( The Apocryphon of John)
“Some think the Lord first died and was later resurrected. They are wrong. In reality, he was resurrected first and then died… for “Flesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom of God.” (The Gospel of Philip)
Compare to Latter-Rain Teachings:
“The rapture idea is ridiculous…One has to conclude that the secret rapture theory may be evangelical, but is nonetheless unbiblical. It is a grotesque idea-the rapture may be the most agreeable to cowards, but it is nothing better than wishful thinking and must be relegated to the area of myth and fantasy.”- Bill Britton
“… the entire thrust of scripture is that we will have a resurrected body on earth, and that the heavens and the earth will be regenerated and renewed (Acts 3:21, Matt. 19:28). If there is to be a bodily removal of the saints at all, it can only be temporary.” “The statement “and thus we shall always be with the Lord” tend to suggest, at least to me that we will always be in the “caught up” state, i.e., we will be in heavenly places with Him from this point onward, and forevermore. To my way of thinking, we can be in heavenly places while we are still on this earth.”-(Richard Riss- Latter Rain Teaching)
Gnostics taught concept of Corporate Redemption.
“I am the bride and the groom, and my husband gave birth to me. I am the mother of my father, the sister of my husband, and he is my child.”(The Thunder, Perfect Mind)
"But the Decad from Word and Life brought forth decads so as to make the Pleroma(Fulness) become a hundred, and the Dodecad from Man and Church brought forth and made the Triacontad(a replica of Logos-the Christ) so as to make the three hundred sixty become the Pleroma (Fulness) of the year(season)." (A Valentinian Exposition)
Compare the Latter-Rain Manchild teaching:
“…the outpouring of the Holy Spirit which shall bring the Fulness, a company of overcoming Sons of God who have come to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ, to actually dethrone Satan, casting him out of the heavenlies, and finally binding him in the earthlies, bringing hope of deliverance and life to all the families of the earth.” “This great work of the Spirit shall usher a people into full redemption- free from the curse, sin, sickness, and death.”(Bill Britton)
Gnostics taught Poverty was lack of knowing God’s kingdom.
"The kingdom is inside of you, and it is outside of you. When you come to know yourselves, then you will become known, and you will realize that it is you who are the sons of the living father. But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty." (Gospel of Thomas)
Compare to the Prosperity Messages:
“Our Goal is as simple as it is strategic: To create wealth! And empower our people to steward that wealth for the purposes of the kingdom, the strengthening of their communities and for the economic well being of their children’s children.”(Bishop Herald and Brenda Ray)
"Poverty is from the devil and that God wants all Christians prosperous." (Benny Hinn, TBN, 11/6/90)
“The whole point is I'm trying to get you to see - to get you out of this malaise of thinking that Jesus and the disciples were poor and then relating that to you - thinking that you, as a child of God, have to follow Jesus. The Bible says that He has left us an example that we should follow His steps. That's the reason why I drive a Rolls Royce. I'm following Jesus' steps.” (Fred Price, TBN- December 9, 1990.)
"Being poor is a sin, when God promises prosperity. New house? New car? That's chicken feed. That's nothing compared to what God wants to do for you"(Robert Tilton)
Gnostics were fascinated with powers of Jewels:
“In Gnostic lore, Lucifer’s jewels became “oracles” for mankind to receive enlightenment, the forbidden knowledge or gnosis. Gnostics believe that a jewel or stone that fell from the crown of Lucifer became the “Holy Grail” or the Philosopher’s Stone, which “symbolises the transmutation of the lower animal nature of man into the highest and divine.” (Madame Blavatsky)
"The stone, also referred to as the "tincture," or the "powder" (Greek xerion, which passed through Latin into Arabic as elixir), was allied to an elixir of life, believed by alchemists to be a liquid derived from it. Inasmuch as alchemy was concerned not only with the search for a method of upgrading less valuable metals but also of perfecting the human soul, the philosopher's stone was thought to cure illnesses, prolong life, and bring about spiritual revitalization. The philosopher's stone, described variously, was sometimes said to be a common substance, found everywhere but unrecognized and unappreciated." (Encyc. Brit., 15th ed., 1976)
Compare to Rick Joyner’s visions:
"Then my eyes fell on a beautiful green stone. 'What does that one have in it?' I asked the angel standing nearby. "'All of these stones are the treasures of salvation. You are now touching the heavenly realm, and that one is the restoration of life,”he continued. As I touched the green stone I began to see the earth in rich and spectacular colors. They grew in richness the longer I had my hand on the stone, and my love for all that I saw also grew. Then I began to see a harmony between all living things on a level that I had never seen before. Then I began to see the glory of the Lord in the creation. It began to grow until again I had to step away because of the intensity." (Rick Joyner, The Final Quest, p. 68-69.)
Gnostics Teach God is Bisexual & Adam was too
“I am both male and female. I am Mother and I am Father…” (Trimorphic Protennoia)
“Then the All Glorious One, Youel, spoke to me again. She gave me a revelation…” (Allogenes)
“The Demiurge(God) created man in his image”.( A Valentinian Exposition)
Compare to this heretical Church Teaching.
“Then, he created Eve out of Adam. Now, actually God didn’t name her Eve, Adam named her Eve later. That wasn’t her name, her name was Adam . . . Adam. When God said Adam, they both came. Their authority was one and the same together. They did everything together. They had always been together. Even when she was still part of him, he was as much female as he was male, LIKE GOD IS. And God separated the female part of him and then put them back together. And she was Adam, they were Adam. He was the man, she was the woman. She was the man with the womb." (Transcribed From A Message Given By Kenneth Copeland, Paw Creek Ministries)
“God is not only ‘male,’ He is ‘female.’ One of His names is El-Shaddai, which means ‘Mother-God.’ We see the completeness of God only as we realize this truth. He is both male and female… So when God created Adam, He made him like himself, creating in him the male and female characteristics.” (Gwen Shaw- Love, the Law of the Angels)
“God had created Adam male and female. If God created man male and female, it was because bisexuality somehow belongs to His own nature. The fact has been recognized by early rabbinic commentators that this is true.” (Gwen Shaw-Love the Law of the Angels, p. 165)
[/quote]
As you can see Gnosticism is not only found in New Age teachings... but is well alive in churches.
"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." Matthew 10:16
Full Version: What Gnostics Teach
Thank you, 1likeDeborah. I knew that gnostics were pretty far out there, but I didn't realize just how far!
YSIC, Angela
YSIC, Angela
I'm not the least bit suprised. Certainly the charismatic circles are loaded with these heretical doctrines. The stage is being set. Expect to also see many new theories touted about in theoretical physics suddenly become common knowledge within about 10-15 years. The reason I bring this up is because they can be easily twisted into very strong supporting evidence for increasingly popular gnostic teachings like the "magical" power of words, us being "gods", etc.
Hi Deborah:
I read your thread and found some parts to be good, but other parts not so good. Please allow me to address some of the areas where we disagree. I must assume that everything without quotes is your words.
Deborah >> “I recently did some research on ancient Gnosticism and compared it to the many modern teachings that are found in many Protestant churches. What I found is very disturbing...and shocking! This is why you will find it in the controvesial section. Please excuse the lengthiness but this is an old heresy that needs revisiting so we can recognize it.”
First of all, Gnosticism ( http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9037124/Gnosticism ) is a “philosophical and religious movement prominent in the Greco-Roman world in the 2nd century AD.” Gnosticism was very much ‘a religion’ outside of Christianity with origins outside of anything taught in Scripture. To try and say this is an ‘old heresy,’ like Gnosticism is a ‘doctrine’ taught in precepts, does not accurately characterize the philosophical or religious movement of 2000 years ago very well at all. The key for your readers is that a ‘gnostic’ believed himself to be privy to ‘secret’ information allowing for the ‘salvation’ of those joining their religious organization through various works and rituals. Any ‘religion’ (religios = ‘to bind back’) represents man trying to bind himself back to God through the use of works and rituals, which the Gnostics of 2000 years ago were willing to provide for their disciples. The term “gnostic” is taken from “gnostikos meaning “one who has gnosis”, or “secret knowledge.” Therefore, many of your sources below are describing perceived ‘heresy,’ but those teachings have nothing whatsoever to do with any ancient Greek ‘Gnostics.’ The problem with attaching ‘heresy’ to the testimony of another is that the USA alone has over 2000 different denominations of professing Christians and your particular flavor is just one of them. Are we 100 percent certain that ‘all’ of our current interpretations are in line with every word uttered from God on all of these Bible topics? Or is there the chance that one of your so-called ‘heretics’ is right about one thing, while the other has things right also about something else? My practice for many years has been to never accuse anyone of heresy or of being my heretic, because the day may very well present itself that part of that person’s testimony will be proven true. I happened to have things wrong on that aspect of Scripture, but now my accusations fall back onto me. Why risk that at the judgment? Why not simply ‘quote >>’ the perceived errors and present my a case from my ‘current’ views using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15? We agree that your Opening Post is very much too long.
Deborah >> “Gnosticism in the Church! Gnostcism in Brief History: Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine that the early church often battled.”
No. Gnosticism is a religion that was prominent in the Greco-Roman World in the second century AD with roots reaching back much earlier in world history. The basic tenet of modern day Christianity is that we carry the “Gospel” that is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25), which to many is just another form of Gnosticism. After all, Paul says that our gospel is veiled to those who are perishing. 2Cor. 4:3-4. The very meaning of ‘musterion’ (mystery #3466 http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1884#1 ) includes “I have learned a secret.” Vines writes:
“In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be MADE KNOWN ONLY by Divine revelation, and is made known in a MANNER and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED . . .”
Even without reading Vines’ entire definition, we can see how non-Christians might view most everything we say about the mystery gospel (Eph. 6:19), our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) and mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) as being part of Gnosticism. Then we have the even larger problem faced by those called “mature” (1Cor. 2:6-8) knowing “God’s Hidden Wisdom” VERSUS other Christians who are called carnal and fleshy (1Cor. 3:1-3). If God gives me an aspect of His Hidden Wisdom that you currently cannot see, then does that make your brother in Christ your heretic and gnostic? No. Paul uses this term “musterion” (the mystery = Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:25-27) twenty times to teach and various facets of what Peter calls the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16) that the untaught and unstable distort to their own destruction. If that does not force you to sit back in your chair and take notice, then no other warning in Scripture will either. The simple fact is that Scripture teaches a ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) for those part of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) AND an antithesis “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) that teaches an even larger and opposing ‘body of sin.’ In other words, Denominationalism is gathering a very large number of ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) that serve their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14), but they are not even aware of the fact that the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) has blinded them! What happens when one of those false brethren come out to speak against Gnosticism and lures others into the same ‘mystery of iniquity’ trap?!! Of course, I am using this example figuratively in this case, but want your readers to gain a better foothold on recognizing the absolute fact that every doctrine we teach must be grounded in God’s Living Word. 2Tim. 3:16-17. This tag of ‘Gnostic’ is many times placed upon others, because they hold opposing views to our own. Do not allow yourself to be dragged into that trap, but always compare the testimony of everyone to what God says through His Word in Scripture. Anyone carrying our gospel to others is a Gnostic to somebody!
Deborah >> “Gnosticism originally arose during the Hellenistic period through the Jewish Pharisees and Essenes. After, the birth of the church, their also arose a “christian” form of Gnosticism.”
No sir. I do not know where you gathered this information, but Gnosticism is certainly a religion outside the boundaries of Judaism. The official Wiki determination is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism ):
“Gnosticism is a term created by modern scholars to describe a diverse religious movement often associated with Christianity, although textual evidence for the movement contains distinctly non- and anti-Christian elements, as well as anti-Judaic elements. These beliefs had largely syncretistic origins in that they were often based on various influences from such idea-systems.
Several Gnostic texts appear to have no Christian element at all. Because the textual evidence comes from the first few centuries AD, many scholars have assumed that Gnosticism did not predate this period, but earlier historians of religion saw it as an outgrowth of ancient mystical traditions in Asia, especially Iran.”
There is no way any Jewish Pharisees steep in Judaism flocked to an “idea-based” Religion void of Mosaic Law and Jewish tradition. Any charge of that kind must be placed upon those leaving Judaism, which would disqualify them from being a Jewish Pharisee.
Deborah >> “These Gnostics borrowed from Jewish Gnostics and redefined and distorted church teachings. These “christian” Gnostic teachings were mixed with paganism, philosophy and mysticism.”
All of these are conclusions based upon nothing but conjecture. Even Christians worship Christ’s birthday on the most pagan holiday of all (Dec. 25th) that began the five day feast to the end of the year. When you give each month 30 days (12+30 = 360), then we are left with the 5 days remaining to the end of the year. The early churches thought it a good idea to bring Gentiles into their assemblies by aligning their newly created holy day with the one of pagan tradition. Does that make Christianity a modern day Gnostic religion? Some would argue so! What about the Christian tradition of coloring Easter Eggs in celebration of the Goddess of Love (Aphrodite = Greece and Diana = Rome)? Does any of that come from the Bible? No. Pagan mythology and religion . . . Your statement above is easy to say quickly, but a bit more difficult to prove using third party references. Which ‘church teachings’ are you talking about and from which of the over 2000 Christian denominations?
Deborah >> “Gnostics through the help of the Essenes also would rewrite copies of church letters, or create false gospels to fit their teachings. Much of Gnosticism did not go away but merely went underground through various cults and secret societies. A good example of a Gnostic secret society is Freemasonry but there are a variety of others such as Manicheanism. The founder of “christian” Gnosticism began with Simon Magus mentioned in Acts.”
The Essenes did what? This Jewish Sect of the Pharisees became a new form of Pietism (http://latter-rain.com/Israel/essenes.htm ). The ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of Christ gathered many members from the Pharisees (Acts 15:1-5) who commanded that Paul’s Gentiles be circumcised. Are you saying that members of this sect doctored the Egyptian manuscripts (Critical Text taken) or the Antiochian manuscripts (Received Text taken)? You appear to be taking liberties with this “Gnostic” label like that fits most everyone having a secret, when in truth every brand of religion has their own version and way of doing things. An unbeliever can simply throw his hands into the air and proclaim that every religious person on earth is his Gnostic using your definition and that would include every member of this Board. While I can agree with some of what your post contains, the length and generality of many of the claims appear to diminish and even tarnish the remainder of the work. To answer every point in this post one must sit here and type all day. : 0 )
My 2 cents. Man-0-man, even the bold codes do not work in here. : 9 (
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
I read your thread and found some parts to be good, but other parts not so good. Please allow me to address some of the areas where we disagree. I must assume that everything without quotes is your words.
Deborah >> “I recently did some research on ancient Gnosticism and compared it to the many modern teachings that are found in many Protestant churches. What I found is very disturbing...and shocking! This is why you will find it in the controvesial section. Please excuse the lengthiness but this is an old heresy that needs revisiting so we can recognize it.”
First of all, Gnosticism ( http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9037124/Gnosticism ) is a “philosophical and religious movement prominent in the Greco-Roman world in the 2nd century AD.” Gnosticism was very much ‘a religion’ outside of Christianity with origins outside of anything taught in Scripture. To try and say this is an ‘old heresy,’ like Gnosticism is a ‘doctrine’ taught in precepts, does not accurately characterize the philosophical or religious movement of 2000 years ago very well at all. The key for your readers is that a ‘gnostic’ believed himself to be privy to ‘secret’ information allowing for the ‘salvation’ of those joining their religious organization through various works and rituals. Any ‘religion’ (religios = ‘to bind back’) represents man trying to bind himself back to God through the use of works and rituals, which the Gnostics of 2000 years ago were willing to provide for their disciples. The term “gnostic” is taken from “gnostikos meaning “one who has gnosis”, or “secret knowledge.” Therefore, many of your sources below are describing perceived ‘heresy,’ but those teachings have nothing whatsoever to do with any ancient Greek ‘Gnostics.’ The problem with attaching ‘heresy’ to the testimony of another is that the USA alone has over 2000 different denominations of professing Christians and your particular flavor is just one of them. Are we 100 percent certain that ‘all’ of our current interpretations are in line with every word uttered from God on all of these Bible topics? Or is there the chance that one of your so-called ‘heretics’ is right about one thing, while the other has things right also about something else? My practice for many years has been to never accuse anyone of heresy or of being my heretic, because the day may very well present itself that part of that person’s testimony will be proven true. I happened to have things wrong on that aspect of Scripture, but now my accusations fall back onto me. Why risk that at the judgment? Why not simply ‘quote >>’ the perceived errors and present my a case from my ‘current’ views using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15? We agree that your Opening Post is very much too long.
Deborah >> “Gnosticism in the Church! Gnostcism in Brief History: Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine that the early church often battled.”
No. Gnosticism is a religion that was prominent in the Greco-Roman World in the second century AD with roots reaching back much earlier in world history. The basic tenet of modern day Christianity is that we carry the “Gospel” that is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25), which to many is just another form of Gnosticism. After all, Paul says that our gospel is veiled to those who are perishing. 2Cor. 4:3-4. The very meaning of ‘musterion’ (mystery #3466 http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1884#1 ) includes “I have learned a secret.” Vines writes:
“In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be MADE KNOWN ONLY by Divine revelation, and is made known in a MANNER and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED . . .”
Even without reading Vines’ entire definition, we can see how non-Christians might view most everything we say about the mystery gospel (Eph. 6:19), our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) and mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) as being part of Gnosticism. Then we have the even larger problem faced by those called “mature” (1Cor. 2:6-8) knowing “God’s Hidden Wisdom” VERSUS other Christians who are called carnal and fleshy (1Cor. 3:1-3). If God gives me an aspect of His Hidden Wisdom that you currently cannot see, then does that make your brother in Christ your heretic and gnostic? No. Paul uses this term “musterion” (the mystery = Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:25-27) twenty times to teach and various facets of what Peter calls the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16) that the untaught and unstable distort to their own destruction. If that does not force you to sit back in your chair and take notice, then no other warning in Scripture will either. The simple fact is that Scripture teaches a ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) for those part of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) AND an antithesis “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) that teaches an even larger and opposing ‘body of sin.’ In other words, Denominationalism is gathering a very large number of ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) that serve their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14), but they are not even aware of the fact that the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) has blinded them! What happens when one of those false brethren come out to speak against Gnosticism and lures others into the same ‘mystery of iniquity’ trap?!! Of course, I am using this example figuratively in this case, but want your readers to gain a better foothold on recognizing the absolute fact that every doctrine we teach must be grounded in God’s Living Word. 2Tim. 3:16-17. This tag of ‘Gnostic’ is many times placed upon others, because they hold opposing views to our own. Do not allow yourself to be dragged into that trap, but always compare the testimony of everyone to what God says through His Word in Scripture. Anyone carrying our gospel to others is a Gnostic to somebody!
Deborah >> “Gnosticism originally arose during the Hellenistic period through the Jewish Pharisees and Essenes. After, the birth of the church, their also arose a “christian” form of Gnosticism.”
No sir. I do not know where you gathered this information, but Gnosticism is certainly a religion outside the boundaries of Judaism. The official Wiki determination is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism ):
“Gnosticism is a term created by modern scholars to describe a diverse religious movement often associated with Christianity, although textual evidence for the movement contains distinctly non- and anti-Christian elements, as well as anti-Judaic elements. These beliefs had largely syncretistic origins in that they were often based on various influences from such idea-systems.
Several Gnostic texts appear to have no Christian element at all. Because the textual evidence comes from the first few centuries AD, many scholars have assumed that Gnosticism did not predate this period, but earlier historians of religion saw it as an outgrowth of ancient mystical traditions in Asia, especially Iran.”
There is no way any Jewish Pharisees steep in Judaism flocked to an “idea-based” Religion void of Mosaic Law and Jewish tradition. Any charge of that kind must be placed upon those leaving Judaism, which would disqualify them from being a Jewish Pharisee.
Deborah >> “These Gnostics borrowed from Jewish Gnostics and redefined and distorted church teachings. These “christian” Gnostic teachings were mixed with paganism, philosophy and mysticism.”
All of these are conclusions based upon nothing but conjecture. Even Christians worship Christ’s birthday on the most pagan holiday of all (Dec. 25th) that began the five day feast to the end of the year. When you give each month 30 days (12+30 = 360), then we are left with the 5 days remaining to the end of the year. The early churches thought it a good idea to bring Gentiles into their assemblies by aligning their newly created holy day with the one of pagan tradition. Does that make Christianity a modern day Gnostic religion? Some would argue so! What about the Christian tradition of coloring Easter Eggs in celebration of the Goddess of Love (Aphrodite = Greece and Diana = Rome)? Does any of that come from the Bible? No. Pagan mythology and religion . . . Your statement above is easy to say quickly, but a bit more difficult to prove using third party references. Which ‘church teachings’ are you talking about and from which of the over 2000 Christian denominations?
Deborah >> “Gnostics through the help of the Essenes also would rewrite copies of church letters, or create false gospels to fit their teachings. Much of Gnosticism did not go away but merely went underground through various cults and secret societies. A good example of a Gnostic secret society is Freemasonry but there are a variety of others such as Manicheanism. The founder of “christian” Gnosticism began with Simon Magus mentioned in Acts.”
The Essenes did what? This Jewish Sect of the Pharisees became a new form of Pietism (http://latter-rain.com/Israel/essenes.htm ). The ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of Christ gathered many members from the Pharisees (Acts 15:1-5) who commanded that Paul’s Gentiles be circumcised. Are you saying that members of this sect doctored the Egyptian manuscripts (Critical Text taken) or the Antiochian manuscripts (Received Text taken)? You appear to be taking liberties with this “Gnostic” label like that fits most everyone having a secret, when in truth every brand of religion has their own version and way of doing things. An unbeliever can simply throw his hands into the air and proclaim that every religious person on earth is his Gnostic using your definition and that would include every member of this Board. While I can agree with some of what your post contains, the length and generality of many of the claims appear to diminish and even tarnish the remainder of the work. To answer every point in this post one must sit here and type all day. : 0 )
My 2 cents. Man-0-man, even the bold codes do not work in here. : 9 (
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Well that certainly is an alternate view.
Anyone want to give a way to varify any of this?
Gnosticism was knowledge and physical based.
Veganism was one of their practises, so Paul had to adress that meat was alright to eat and not evil.
Gnostics denighed the power of Christ by allegorizing everything.
Mysticism is a whole nother study
[Origin: 1555–65; < LL Gnōsticī (pl.) name of the sect < Gk gnōstikós (sing.) pertaining to knowledge, equiv. to gnōst(ós) known + -ikos -ic]
[Origin: 1275–1325; ME mystik < L mysticus < Gk mystikós, equiv. to mýst(és) an initiate into the mysteries + -ikos -ic; akin to myeǐn to initiate, teach]
Nothing unbiblical about Mysteries and contemplating them
Nothing bad about having knowledge.
I think you ought to check out the sources a little better. Know your authors and their agenda. Don't take anything at face value.
Gnostic would be more like a Saducean teaching anyway wouldn't it?
bananna
Anyone want to give a way to varify any of this?
Gnosticism was knowledge and physical based.
Veganism was one of their practises, so Paul had to adress that meat was alright to eat and not evil.
Gnostics denighed the power of Christ by allegorizing everything.
Mysticism is a whole nother study
[Origin: 1555–65; < LL Gnōsticī (pl.) name of the sect < Gk gnōstikós (sing.) pertaining to knowledge, equiv. to gnōst(ós) known + -ikos -ic] [Origin: 1275–1325; ME mystik < L mysticus < Gk mystikós, equiv. to mýst(és) an initiate into the mysteries + -ikos -ic; akin to myeǐn to initiate, teach] Nothing unbiblical about Mysteries and contemplating them
Nothing bad about having knowledge.
I think you ought to check out the sources a little better. Know your authors and their agenda. Don't take anything at face value.
Gnostic would be more like a Saducean teaching anyway wouldn't it?
bananna
[color=#CC0000]Nothing unbiblical about Mysteries and contemplating them
Nothing bad about having knowledge.
I think you ought to check out the sources a little better. Know your authors and their agenda. Don't take anything at face value.[/color]
Greetings all:
This is directed to you, Banana. If I'm not mistaken, there were two very specific trees in the Garden of Eden. One was the tree of knowledge of good AND evil and the other tree was the tree of Life. God specifically tells Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gnostics, of their own accord, chooses to have "special" knowledge of God, implying that God haven't told everything to everyone, which is an old serpent's lie that was told to Eve. I, myself, have study Kabbalah for I had wanted to get to know Joshua in His jewish setting. But once I had read that the Kabbalists do not recognize Joshua as the Messiah, I had threw almost everything out that had pertains to Kabbalah, with the lone exception of the Jewish alphabet. If man is willing to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, regardless of their intentions, then it's simply evil. You can not have it both ways. For example, let's take witchcraft. From my understanding, there are white (meaning that it's used for good) magic and there are black (meaning that it's used for evil) magic. No matter how it's used, whether it's for good or it's for evil, witchcraft is witchcraft and it's an abdomination unto to the Lord. Simple as that.
[color=#FF0000]Nothing bad about having knowledge. [/color]
This, to me, is akin to saying from one drug addict to another, "One hit isn't going to hurt you." In the short term, not exactly. In the long term, it can kill you. For one hit leads to a craving for more, more, more til you basically drop dead (yes, it's a little melodramatic, but I'm trying to make a point here). How do I know this? I once was a crack/cocaine addict back in the late eighties. It is by the grace and tender mercy of God through His Son, Joshua in the Holy Spirit, I was led to repentence and I have not touch that monkey crap since. I do thank God for that.
Know that you are loved, Banana, by the grace and tender mercy of our God, through His Son, Joshua in the Holy Spirit.
Sincerely yours,
Wendy
P.S. I also like to add this: Nothing's new under the sun. It had happen at the beginning, don't be all that surprised when it happen again at the end. God has the overview of the past, presence and future. Rest in Him is your tree of life.
Nothing bad about having knowledge.
I think you ought to check out the sources a little better. Know your authors and their agenda. Don't take anything at face value.[/color]
Greetings all:
This is directed to you, Banana. If I'm not mistaken, there were two very specific trees in the Garden of Eden. One was the tree of knowledge of good AND evil and the other tree was the tree of Life. God specifically tells Adam not to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Gnostics, of their own accord, chooses to have "special" knowledge of God, implying that God haven't told everything to everyone, which is an old serpent's lie that was told to Eve. I, myself, have study Kabbalah for I had wanted to get to know Joshua in His jewish setting. But once I had read that the Kabbalists do not recognize Joshua as the Messiah, I had threw almost everything out that had pertains to Kabbalah, with the lone exception of the Jewish alphabet. If man is willing to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and evil, regardless of their intentions, then it's simply evil. You can not have it both ways. For example, let's take witchcraft. From my understanding, there are white (meaning that it's used for good) magic and there are black (meaning that it's used for evil) magic. No matter how it's used, whether it's for good or it's for evil, witchcraft is witchcraft and it's an abdomination unto to the Lord. Simple as that.
[color=#FF0000]Nothing bad about having knowledge. [/color]
This, to me, is akin to saying from one drug addict to another, "One hit isn't going to hurt you." In the short term, not exactly. In the long term, it can kill you. For one hit leads to a craving for more, more, more til you basically drop dead (yes, it's a little melodramatic, but I'm trying to make a point here). How do I know this? I once was a crack/cocaine addict back in the late eighties. It is by the grace and tender mercy of God through His Son, Joshua in the Holy Spirit, I was led to repentence and I have not touch that monkey crap since. I do thank God for that.
Know that you are loved, Banana, by the grace and tender mercy of our God, through His Son, Joshua in the Holy Spirit.
Sincerely yours,
Wendy
P.S. I also like to add this: Nothing's new under the sun. It had happen at the beginning, don't be all that surprised when it happen again at the end. God has the overview of the past, presence and future. Rest in Him is your tree of life.
Wendy,
your response seems a tangent to what I was saying. Knowledge is not evil and neither is anything else God made. Adam and Eve fell for lack of discernment. Eve had added to the Word of God the words, "or even touch it" We must be careful not to assume our own practise is somehow God's righteous rulings.
Kabalah is for the aged and discerning to study. The first rule of study is one must be 40 or more years old. I'm not sure where anyone would get the idea it has anything to do with denighing Messiah.
However I'm not one of those people that refuses to read Emily Bronte, because it is not the bible and does not speak of God.
Neither Gnostism nor Kabalah fall into the witchcraft category.
Modern medicine does however use sorcery, and mind altering drugs, and voodoo fear tactics and Power to control the masses.
The evil is in how one uses Knowledge, not in the knowledge. Torah is very specific about what we cannot study.
Necromacy
Divination
Calling up spirits from the dead.
Witchcraft
Sorcery
Gossip=witchcraft.
We are not to "know" these things in the sense that we are not to practise what is against God's Commands.
I can respect ones personal work unto God not to study Kabalah or science or gnostic allegory. I personally would not study gnostic beliefs. I do study medical journals, studies and literature with a healthy dose of scriptural balancing and discernment from God.
I will not call gnosticism witchcraft. It is the persuit of knowledge to the point knowledge becomes God and practise of Torah has been rationalized away. And the living Torah dishonored.
Kabalah is mystism not witchcraft. There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply. Perhaps Transendant Meditation and out of body experience would fit the bill better. Like Apostle John when he wrote Revelations.
Judaism, is not Kabalahism.
Wendy I'm so glad you are studying scriptures that is where we all need to remain grounded.. That is the important thing. Anything we let come before our eyes should be there because we know God is leading us to search it out and see it. That is why I don't read gossip columns and Magazines.
May you be blessed as you follow God
s will for you.
bananna
your response seems a tangent to what I was saying. Knowledge is not evil and neither is anything else God made. Adam and Eve fell for lack of discernment. Eve had added to the Word of God the words, "or even touch it" We must be careful not to assume our own practise is somehow God's righteous rulings.
Kabalah is for the aged and discerning to study. The first rule of study is one must be 40 or more years old. I'm not sure where anyone would get the idea it has anything to do with denighing Messiah.
However I'm not one of those people that refuses to read Emily Bronte, because it is not the bible and does not speak of God.
Neither Gnostism nor Kabalah fall into the witchcraft category.
Modern medicine does however use sorcery, and mind altering drugs, and voodoo fear tactics and Power to control the masses.
The evil is in how one uses Knowledge, not in the knowledge. Torah is very specific about what we cannot study.
Necromacy
Divination
Calling up spirits from the dead.
Witchcraft
Sorcery
Gossip=witchcraft.
We are not to "know" these things in the sense that we are not to practise what is against God's Commands.
I can respect ones personal work unto God not to study Kabalah or science or gnostic allegory. I personally would not study gnostic beliefs. I do study medical journals, studies and literature with a healthy dose of scriptural balancing and discernment from God.
I will not call gnosticism witchcraft. It is the persuit of knowledge to the point knowledge becomes God and practise of Torah has been rationalized away. And the living Torah dishonored.
Kabalah is mystism not witchcraft. There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply. Perhaps Transendant Meditation and out of body experience would fit the bill better. Like Apostle John when he wrote Revelations.
Judaism, is not Kabalahism.
Wendy I'm so glad you are studying scriptures that is where we all need to remain grounded.. That is the important thing. Anything we let come before our eyes should be there because we know God is leading us to search it out and see it. That is why I don't read gossip columns and Magazines.
May you be blessed as you follow God
s will for you.
bananna
Why waste your time studying the counterfeit? Are you casting out demons? Winning souls to Christ daily?
I don't recommend it. It attracts all sorts of spiritual forces that play with your head.
Maybe you think you're to grounded and are above all that....
Then you'll need more luck then prayer...
I don't recommend it. It attracts all sorts of spiritual forces that play with your head.
Maybe you think you're to grounded and are above all that....
Then you'll need more luck then prayer...
I think I'll stick to reading and learning scripture alone as far as spiritual matters go. (It's about the only thing I've wanted to read lately, anyway.) Can't go wrong there, right? 
In Christ, Angela
In Christ, Angela
[quote name='Terral' date='Dec 19 2006, 01:37 PM' post='96008']
Hi Deborah:
I read your thread and found some parts to be good, but other parts not so good. Please allow me to address some of the areas where we disagree. I must assume that everything without quotes is your words.
Deborah >> “I recently did some research on ancient Gnosticism and compared it to the many modern teachings that are found in many Protestant churches. What I found is very disturbing...and shocking! This is why you will find it in the controvesial section. Please excuse the lengthiness but this is an old heresy that needs revisiting so we can recognize it.”
First of all, Gnosticism ( http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9037124/Gnosticism ) is a “philosophical and religious movement prominent in the Greco-Roman world in the 2nd century AD.” Gnosticism was very much ‘a religion’ outside of Christianity with origins outside of anything taught in Scripture. To try and say this is an ‘old heresy,’ like Gnosticism is a ‘doctrine’ taught in precepts, does not accurately characterize the philosophical or religious movement of 2000 years ago very well at all. The key for your readers is that a ‘gnostic’ believed himself to be privy to ‘secret’ information allowing for the ‘salvation’ of those joining their religious organization through various works and rituals. Any ‘religion’ (religios = ‘to bind back’) represents man trying to bind himself back to God through the use of works and rituals, which the Gnostics of 2000 years ago were willing to provide for their disciples. The term “gnostic” is taken from “gnostikos meaning “one who has gnosis”, or “secret knowledge.” Therefore, many of your sources below are describing perceived ‘heresy,’ but those teachings have nothing whatsoever to do with any ancient Greek ‘Gnostics.’ The problem with attaching ‘heresy’ to the testimony of another is that the USA alone has over 2000 different denominations of professing Christians and your particular flavor is just one of them. Are we 100 percent certain that ‘all’ of our current interpretations are in line with every word uttered from God on all of these Bible topics? Or is there the chance that one of your so-called ‘heretics’ is right about one thing, while the other has things right also about something else? My practice for many years has been to never accuse anyone of heresy or of being my heretic, because the day may very well present itself that part of that person’s testimony will be proven true. I happened to have things wrong on that aspect of Scripture, but now my accusations fall back onto me. Why risk that at the judgment? Why not simply ‘quote >>’ the perceived errors and present my a case from my ‘current’ views using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15? We agree that your Opening Post is very much too long.
Deborah >> “Gnosticism in the Church! Gnostcism in Brief History: Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine that the early church often battled.”
No. Gnosticism is a religion that was prominent in the Greco-Roman World in the second century AD with roots reaching back much earlier in world history. The basic tenet of modern day Christianity is that we carry the “Gospel” that is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25), which to many is just another form of Gnosticism. After all, Paul says that our gospel is veiled to those who are perishing. 2Cor. 4:3-4. The very meaning of ‘musterion’ (mystery #3466 http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1884#1 ) includes “I have learned a secret.” Vines writes:
“In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be MADE KNOWN ONLY by Divine revelation, and is made known in a MANNER and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED . . .”
Even without reading Vines’ entire definition, we can see how non-Christians might view most everything we say about the mystery gospel (Eph. 6:19), our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) and mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) as being part of Gnosticism. Then we have the even larger problem faced by those called “mature” (1Cor. 2:6-8) knowing “God’s Hidden Wisdom” VERSUS other Christians who are called carnal and fleshy (1Cor. 3:1-3). If God gives me an aspect of His Hidden Wisdom that you currently cannot see, then does that make your brother in Christ your heretic and gnostic? No. Paul uses this term “musterion” (the mystery = Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:25-27) twenty times to teach and various facets of what Peter calls the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16) that the untaught and unstable distort to their own destruction. If that does not force you to sit back in your chair and take notice, then no other warning in Scripture will either. The simple fact is that Scripture teaches a ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) for those part of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) AND an antithesis “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) that teaches an even larger and opposing ‘body of sin.’ In other words, Denominationalism is gathering a very large number of ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) that serve their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14), but they are not even aware of the fact that the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) has blinded them! What happens when one of those false brethren come out to speak against Gnosticism and lures others into the same ‘mystery of iniquity’ trap?!! Of course, I am using this example figuratively in this case, but want your readers to gain a better foothold on recognizing the absolute fact that every doctrine we teach must be grounded in God’s Living Word. 2Tim. 3:16-17. This tag of ‘Gnostic’ is many times placed upon others, because they hold opposing views to our own. Do not allow yourself to be dragged into that trap, but always compare the testimony of everyone to what God says through His Word in Scripture. Anyone carrying our gospel to others is a Gnostic to somebody!
Deborah >> “Gnosticism originally arose during the Hellenistic period through the Jewish Pharisees and Essenes. After, the birth of the church, their also arose a “christian” form of Gnosticism.”
No sir. I do not know where you gathered this information, but Gnosticism is certainly a religion outside the boundaries of Judaism. The official Wiki determination is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism ):
“Gnosticism is a term created by modern scholars to describe a diverse religious movement often associated with Christianity, although textual evidence for the movement contains distinctly non- and anti-Christian elements, as well as anti-Judaic elements. These beliefs had largely syncretistic origins in that they were often based on various influences from such idea-systems.
Several Gnostic texts appear to have no Christian element at all. Because the textual evidence comes from the first few centuries AD, many scholars have assumed that Gnosticism did not predate this period, but earlier historians of religion saw it as an outgrowth of ancient mystical traditions in Asia, especially Iran.”
There is no way any Jewish Pharisees steep in Judaism flocked to an “idea-based” Religion void of Mosaic Law and Jewish tradition. Any charge of that kind must be placed upon those leaving Judaism, which would disqualify them from being a Jewish Pharisee.
Deborah >> “These Gnostics borrowed from Jewish Gnostics and redefined and distorted church teachings. These “christian” Gnostic teachings were mixed with paganism, philosophy and mysticism.”
All of these are conclusions based upon nothing but conjecture. Even Christians worship Christ’s birthday on the most pagan holiday of all (Dec. 25th) that began the five day feast to the end of the year. When you give each month 30 days (12+30 = 360), then we are left with the 5 days remaining to the end of the year. The early churches thought it a good idea to bring Gentiles into their assemblies by aligning their newly created holy day with the one of pagan tradition. Does that make Christianity a modern day Gnostic religion? Some would argue so! What about the Christian tradition of coloring Easter Eggs in celebration of the Goddess of Love (Aphrodite = Greece and Diana = Rome)? Does any of that come from the Bible? No. Pagan mythology and religion . . . Your statement above is easy to say quickly, but a bit more difficult to prove using third party references. Which ‘church teachings’ are you talking about and from which of the over 2000 Christian denominations?
Deborah >> “Gnostics through the help of the Essenes also would rewrite copies of church letters, or create false gospels to fit their teachings. Much of Gnosticism did not go away but merely went underground through various cults and secret societies. A good example of a Gnostic secret society is Freemasonry but there are a variety of others such as Manicheanism. The founder of “christian” Gnosticism began with Simon Magus mentioned in Acts.”
The Essenes did what? This Jewish Sect of the Pharisees became a new form of Pietism (http://latter-rain.com/Israel/essenes.htm ). The ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of Christ gathered many members from the Pharisees (Acts 15:1-5) who commanded that Paul’s Gentiles be circumcised. Are you saying that members of this sect doctored the Egyptian manuscripts (Critical Text taken) or the Antiochian manuscripts (Received Text taken)? You appear to be taking liberties with this “Gnostic” label like that fits most everyone having a secret, when in truth every brand of religion has their own version and way of doing things. An unbeliever can simply throw his hands into the air and proclaim that every religious person on earth is his Gnostic using your definition and that would include every member of this Board. While I can agree with some of what your post contains, the length and generality of many of the claims appear to diminish and even tarnish the remainder of the work. To answer every point in this post one must sit here and type all day. : 0 )
My 2 cents. Man-0-man, even the bold codes do not work in here. : 9 (
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[/quote]
Didnt like what you read..? Yes Gnosticism in general predated Christianity. I was talking about Christian Gnosticism. This was founded by Simon Magus...
Simon Magus is mentioned in Acts.
Acts 9
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
We know that this was Simon Magus here in Acts and went on to found a christian form of Gnosticism here is what the early Church wrote:
“God will also judge the vain speeches of the perverse Gnostics, by showing that they are the disciples of Simon Magus."Irenaeus 180 A.D.
T"here was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic... He was considered a god, and as a god was honored by you with a statue. This statue was erected on the Tiber River, between the two bridges. It bore the following inscription in the language of Rome: "To Simon, the holy God." ...And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations worship him. They acknowledge him as the first god." Justin Martyr 160 A.D.
"The Samaritans, Simon and Menander, did many mighty works by magic and deceived many. They remain deceived. Even among yourself [i.e., the pagan Romans], as I said before, Simon was in the royal city of Rome in the reign of Claudius Caesar (from 41 A.D. to 54 A.D.). He so greatly astonished the sacred Senate and the Roman people that he was considered a god. He was honored with a statue, just like the others whom you honor as gods... I advise you to destroy that statue." Justin Martyr 160 A.D.
When I communicated in writing with Caesar, I gave no thought to any of my people, that is, the Samaritans. Rather, I stated that they were in error to trust in the magician Simon of their own nation. They say that he is God above all power, authority, and might." Justin Martyr 160 A.D.
"Simon the Samaritan was the magician of whom Luke, and the disciple and follower of the apostles writes... He set himself eagerly to contend against the apostles, in order that he himself might seem to have been a supernatural being. So he applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the entirety of magic arts, so he could bewilder and overpower multitudes of men. This was his method during the reign of Claudius Caesar, who honored Simon with a statue because of his magical power, according to what is said. This man, then, was glorified by many persons as if he were a god. And he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son... All sorts of heresies derive their origin from this Simon of Samaria. He formed his sect in the following manner: At Tyre, a city of Phoenicia, he redeemed from slavery a certain woman named Helena. He used to take her along with him. He declared that this woman was the first conception of his mind."
Irenaeus 180 A.D.
You install Simon Magus in your Pantheon, giving him a statue and the title of holy God."
Tertullian 197 A.D.
Celsus next pours down upon us a heap of names saying that he knows of the existence of certain Simonians, who worship Helen... as their teacher. They are called Helenians, However, it has escaped the notice of Celsus that the Simonians do not at all acknowledge Jesus to be the Son of God. Rather, they consider Simon to be the Power of God."
Origen 248 A.D.
"In order to gain many followers to himself, Simon protected his disciples from the danger of death [through martyrdom]... by teaching them to regard idolatry as a matter of indifference, So even at the beginning of their existence, the followers of Simon were not exposed to persecution. After all, the wicked demon who was conspiring against the teachings of Jesus was well aware that none of his own teachings would be weakened by the teachings of Simon."
Origen 248 A.D.
And you say I dont know what I am talking about...
It is a historical fact that the early church amongst many presecution also had to battle their teachings. These are the same teachings that are resurfacing in mostly Charismatic orFullGospel churches.
I also posted directquotes from the Gnostic .gospels..and did post sources.
I think the real problem here is that you did not like what you see...as well as the majority of other posters.
The Essenes did according to produce writings some found at Qumran. While I am sure they are not responsible fo every Gnostic gospel ever written... they did in fact hold much influence over the gnostic christian sects teachings. One of many was the denial of a literal resurrection.
Drop the theological barnacles [timeless Biblical truths] from the religion of Jesus, as taught by Him, and by the Essenes and Gnostics of the first centuries, and it becomes Masonry, Masonry in its purity, derived as it is from the old Hebrew Kaballa as a part of the great universal religion of the remotest antiquity." (J. D. Buck, "Mystic Masonry," page 119)
Hi Deborah:
I read your thread and found some parts to be good, but other parts not so good. Please allow me to address some of the areas where we disagree. I must assume that everything without quotes is your words.
Deborah >> “I recently did some research on ancient Gnosticism and compared it to the many modern teachings that are found in many Protestant churches. What I found is very disturbing...and shocking! This is why you will find it in the controvesial section. Please excuse the lengthiness but this is an old heresy that needs revisiting so we can recognize it.”
First of all, Gnosticism ( http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9037124/Gnosticism ) is a “philosophical and religious movement prominent in the Greco-Roman world in the 2nd century AD.” Gnosticism was very much ‘a religion’ outside of Christianity with origins outside of anything taught in Scripture. To try and say this is an ‘old heresy,’ like Gnosticism is a ‘doctrine’ taught in precepts, does not accurately characterize the philosophical or religious movement of 2000 years ago very well at all. The key for your readers is that a ‘gnostic’ believed himself to be privy to ‘secret’ information allowing for the ‘salvation’ of those joining their religious organization through various works and rituals. Any ‘religion’ (religios = ‘to bind back’) represents man trying to bind himself back to God through the use of works and rituals, which the Gnostics of 2000 years ago were willing to provide for their disciples. The term “gnostic” is taken from “gnostikos meaning “one who has gnosis”, or “secret knowledge.” Therefore, many of your sources below are describing perceived ‘heresy,’ but those teachings have nothing whatsoever to do with any ancient Greek ‘Gnostics.’ The problem with attaching ‘heresy’ to the testimony of another is that the USA alone has over 2000 different denominations of professing Christians and your particular flavor is just one of them. Are we 100 percent certain that ‘all’ of our current interpretations are in line with every word uttered from God on all of these Bible topics? Or is there the chance that one of your so-called ‘heretics’ is right about one thing, while the other has things right also about something else? My practice for many years has been to never accuse anyone of heresy or of being my heretic, because the day may very well present itself that part of that person’s testimony will be proven true. I happened to have things wrong on that aspect of Scripture, but now my accusations fall back onto me. Why risk that at the judgment? Why not simply ‘quote >>’ the perceived errors and present my a case from my ‘current’ views using Scripture? 2Tim. 2:15? We agree that your Opening Post is very much too long.
Deborah >> “Gnosticism in the Church! Gnostcism in Brief History: Gnosticism was a heretical doctrine that the early church often battled.”
No. Gnosticism is a religion that was prominent in the Greco-Roman World in the second century AD with roots reaching back much earlier in world history. The basic tenet of modern day Christianity is that we carry the “Gospel” that is “according to the revelation of THE MYSTERY” (Romans 16:25), which to many is just another form of Gnosticism. After all, Paul says that our gospel is veiled to those who are perishing. 2Cor. 4:3-4. The very meaning of ‘musterion’ (mystery #3466 http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1884#1 ) includes “I have learned a secret.” Vines writes:
“In the NT it denotes, NOT the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being OUTSIDE the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be MADE KNOWN ONLY by Divine revelation, and is made known in a MANNER and at A TIME appointed BY GOD, and to those ONLY who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a "mystery" implies knowledge WITHHELD; its Scriptural significance is truth REVEALED . . .”
Even without reading Vines’ entire definition, we can see how non-Christians might view most everything we say about the mystery gospel (Eph. 6:19), our mystery church (Eph. 5:32) and mystery (1Cor. 15:51) Rapture (1Thes. 4:17) as being part of Gnosticism. Then we have the even larger problem faced by those called “mature” (1Cor. 2:6-8) knowing “God’s Hidden Wisdom” VERSUS other Christians who are called carnal and fleshy (1Cor. 3:1-3). If God gives me an aspect of His Hidden Wisdom that you currently cannot see, then does that make your brother in Christ your heretic and gnostic? No. Paul uses this term “musterion” (the mystery = Eph. 3:3, Col. 1:25-27) twenty times to teach and various facets of what Peter calls the ‘wisdom given him’ (2Peter 3:14-16) that the untaught and unstable distort to their own destruction. If that does not force you to sit back in your chair and take notice, then no other warning in Scripture will either. The simple fact is that Scripture teaches a ‘mystery of Christ’ (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3) for those part of the ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) AND an antithesis “mystery of iniquity” (2Thes. 2:7) that teaches an even larger and opposing ‘body of sin.’ In other words, Denominationalism is gathering a very large number of ‘servants of righteousness’ (2Cor. 11:15) that serve their ‘angel of light’ (2Cor. 11:14), but they are not even aware of the fact that the ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3-4) has blinded them! What happens when one of those false brethren come out to speak against Gnosticism and lures others into the same ‘mystery of iniquity’ trap?!! Of course, I am using this example figuratively in this case, but want your readers to gain a better foothold on recognizing the absolute fact that every doctrine we teach must be grounded in God’s Living Word. 2Tim. 3:16-17. This tag of ‘Gnostic’ is many times placed upon others, because they hold opposing views to our own. Do not allow yourself to be dragged into that trap, but always compare the testimony of everyone to what God says through His Word in Scripture. Anyone carrying our gospel to others is a Gnostic to somebody!
Deborah >> “Gnosticism originally arose during the Hellenistic period through the Jewish Pharisees and Essenes. After, the birth of the church, their also arose a “christian” form of Gnosticism.”
No sir. I do not know where you gathered this information, but Gnosticism is certainly a religion outside the boundaries of Judaism. The official Wiki determination is ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism ):
“Gnosticism is a term created by modern scholars to describe a diverse religious movement often associated with Christianity, although textual evidence for the movement contains distinctly non- and anti-Christian elements, as well as anti-Judaic elements. These beliefs had largely syncretistic origins in that they were often based on various influences from such idea-systems.
Several Gnostic texts appear to have no Christian element at all. Because the textual evidence comes from the first few centuries AD, many scholars have assumed that Gnosticism did not predate this period, but earlier historians of religion saw it as an outgrowth of ancient mystical traditions in Asia, especially Iran.”
There is no way any Jewish Pharisees steep in Judaism flocked to an “idea-based” Religion void of Mosaic Law and Jewish tradition. Any charge of that kind must be placed upon those leaving Judaism, which would disqualify them from being a Jewish Pharisee.
Deborah >> “These Gnostics borrowed from Jewish Gnostics and redefined and distorted church teachings. These “christian” Gnostic teachings were mixed with paganism, philosophy and mysticism.”
All of these are conclusions based upon nothing but conjecture. Even Christians worship Christ’s birthday on the most pagan holiday of all (Dec. 25th) that began the five day feast to the end of the year. When you give each month 30 days (12+30 = 360), then we are left with the 5 days remaining to the end of the year. The early churches thought it a good idea to bring Gentiles into their assemblies by aligning their newly created holy day with the one of pagan tradition. Does that make Christianity a modern day Gnostic religion? Some would argue so! What about the Christian tradition of coloring Easter Eggs in celebration of the Goddess of Love (Aphrodite = Greece and Diana = Rome)? Does any of that come from the Bible? No. Pagan mythology and religion . . . Your statement above is easy to say quickly, but a bit more difficult to prove using third party references. Which ‘church teachings’ are you talking about and from which of the over 2000 Christian denominations?
Deborah >> “Gnostics through the help of the Essenes also would rewrite copies of church letters, or create false gospels to fit their teachings. Much of Gnosticism did not go away but merely went underground through various cults and secret societies. A good example of a Gnostic secret society is Freemasonry but there are a variety of others such as Manicheanism. The founder of “christian” Gnosticism began with Simon Magus mentioned in Acts.”
The Essenes did what? This Jewish Sect of the Pharisees became a new form of Pietism (http://latter-rain.com/Israel/essenes.htm ). The ‘bride’ (John 3:29) of Christ gathered many members from the Pharisees (Acts 15:1-5) who commanded that Paul’s Gentiles be circumcised. Are you saying that members of this sect doctored the Egyptian manuscripts (Critical Text taken) or the Antiochian manuscripts (Received Text taken)? You appear to be taking liberties with this “Gnostic” label like that fits most everyone having a secret, when in truth every brand of religion has their own version and way of doing things. An unbeliever can simply throw his hands into the air and proclaim that every religious person on earth is his Gnostic using your definition and that would include every member of this Board. While I can agree with some of what your post contains, the length and generality of many of the claims appear to diminish and even tarnish the remainder of the work. To answer every point in this post one must sit here and type all day. : 0 )
My 2 cents. Man-0-man, even the bold codes do not work in here. : 9 (
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
[/quote]
Didnt like what you read..? Yes Gnosticism in general predated Christianity. I was talking about Christian Gnosticism. This was founded by Simon Magus...
Simon Magus is mentioned in Acts.
Acts 9
9But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one: To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God. And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries. But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done. 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: 16(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost. But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity. Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the LORD for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.
We know that this was Simon Magus here in Acts and went on to found a christian form of Gnosticism here is what the early Church wrote:
“God will also judge the vain speeches of the perverse Gnostics, by showing that they are the disciples of Simon Magus."Irenaeus 180 A.D.
T"here was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Caesar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic... He was considered a god, and as a god was honored by you with a statue. This statue was erected on the Tiber River, between the two bridges. It bore the following inscription in the language of Rome: "To Simon, the holy God." ...And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations worship him. They acknowledge him as the first god." Justin Martyr 160 A.D.
"The Samaritans, Simon and Menander, did many mighty works by magic and deceived many. They remain deceived. Even among yourself [i.e., the pagan Romans], as I said before, Simon was in the royal city of Rome in the reign of Claudius Caesar (from 41 A.D. to 54 A.D.). He so greatly astonished the sacred Senate and the Roman people that he was considered a god. He was honored with a statue, just like the others whom you honor as gods... I advise you to destroy that statue." Justin Martyr 160 A.D.
When I communicated in writing with Caesar, I gave no thought to any of my people, that is, the Samaritans. Rather, I stated that they were in error to trust in the magician Simon of their own nation. They say that he is God above all power, authority, and might." Justin Martyr 160 A.D.
"Simon the Samaritan was the magician of whom Luke, and the disciple and follower of the apostles writes... He set himself eagerly to contend against the apostles, in order that he himself might seem to have been a supernatural being. So he applied himself with still greater zeal to the study of the entirety of magic arts, so he could bewilder and overpower multitudes of men. This was his method during the reign of Claudius Caesar, who honored Simon with a statue because of his magical power, according to what is said. This man, then, was glorified by many persons as if he were a god. And he taught that it was himself who appeared among the Jews as the Son... All sorts of heresies derive their origin from this Simon of Samaria. He formed his sect in the following manner: At Tyre, a city of Phoenicia, he redeemed from slavery a certain woman named Helena. He used to take her along with him. He declared that this woman was the first conception of his mind."
Irenaeus 180 A.D.
You install Simon Magus in your Pantheon, giving him a statue and the title of holy God."
Tertullian 197 A.D.
Celsus next pours down upon us a heap of names saying that he knows of the existence of certain Simonians, who worship Helen... as their teacher. They are called Helenians, However, it has escaped the notice of Celsus that the Simonians do not at all acknowledge Jesus to be the Son of God. Rather, they consider Simon to be the Power of God."
Origen 248 A.D.
"In order to gain many followers to himself, Simon protected his disciples from the danger of death [through martyrdom]... by teaching them to regard idolatry as a matter of indifference, So even at the beginning of their existence, the followers of Simon were not exposed to persecution. After all, the wicked demon who was conspiring against the teachings of Jesus was well aware that none of his own teachings would be weakened by the teachings of Simon."
Origen 248 A.D.
And you say I dont know what I am talking about...
It is a historical fact that the early church amongst many presecution also had to battle their teachings. These are the same teachings that are resurfacing in mostly Charismatic orFullGospel churches.
I also posted directquotes from the Gnostic .gospels..and did post sources.
I think the real problem here is that you did not like what you see...as well as the majority of other posters.
The Essenes did according to produce writings some found at Qumran. While I am sure they are not responsible fo every Gnostic gospel ever written... they did in fact hold much influence over the gnostic christian sects teachings. One of many was the denial of a literal resurrection.
Drop the theological barnacles [timeless Biblical truths] from the religion of Jesus, as taught by Him, and by the Essenes and Gnostics of the first centuries, and it becomes Masonry, Masonry in its purity, derived as it is from the old Hebrew Kaballa as a part of the great universal religion of the remotest antiquity." (J. D. Buck, "Mystic Masonry," page 119)
Greetings all:
Once again, Banana, this is directed toward you. Normally, I don't like to nit-pix or criticize another member's post but I have to do this:
[font=Impact]Kabalah is mystism not witchcraft. There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply. Perhaps Transendant Meditation and out of body experience would fit the bill better. Like Apostle John when he wrote Revelations.[/font]
Okay, now's the definition of mysticism:
[i]This is taken from the American Heritage dictionary[/i]
n. A spiritual discipline aiming at union with the divine with deep mediation or comtemplation.
Now, my question here is: Just who is the divine to them? God? It didn't say God but "divine".
defintion of divine:
adj. 1) Being or having the nature of a deity. 2) Of or relating to a deity. 3) Superhuman; Godlike. 4) Supremely good or magnificent. n. 1) A clergyman. 2) A theologian v. 1) To foretell or prophesy. 2) To guess, infer, or conjecture.
Other words, they want to be "God" or "Godlike". I don't want to be a god for what in the heck would I even do with, much less to know, all that power to begin with. Why can't they accept who they are, nothing more than dust that God had used to create Adam? However, with God's loving help, we can strive to become better humans, physically, mentally and spiritually. And I'm sorry, we all have fallen short to the Glory of God, except for Joshua.
definition of occult:
adj. 1) Of or relating to supernatural influences, phenomena, or knowledge. 2) Beyond human understanding. 3) Available only to the initiate; secret.
See, they (meaning the gnostics, new agers, whatever) want to be more "special" than the rest of us so they go outside of their boundaries to do it. Aiding them are those think they're even more "special" creatures than any other and must destory any other creatures that will eventually be elevated by God to be above them, by any means necessary, if God allows it.
definition of witchcraft:
n. Black magic; sorcery
definition of magic:
n. 1) The art of alledged art of controlling natural events, effects, or forces by invoking charms, spells, etc. 2) The use of sleight of hand and other tricks to entertain. 3) A mysterious quality that seems to enchant.
[color=#FF0000]There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply.[/color]
No but they do view Satan having "spark" within him that must be honored. He's not inherently evil, they say, he only seems that way. And they do have tenents of new age teachings, that all religions are essentially one, etc. Also, they seem to have a special fondness of reading tarot cards and astrology. So kindly tell me again that isn't witchcraft.
Sincerely yours,
Wendy
Once again, Banana, this is directed toward you. Normally, I don't like to nit-pix or criticize another member's post but I have to do this:
[font=Impact]Kabalah is mystism not witchcraft. There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply. Perhaps Transendant Meditation and out of body experience would fit the bill better. Like Apostle John when he wrote Revelations.[/font]
Okay, now's the definition of mysticism:
[i]This is taken from the American Heritage dictionary[/i]
n. A spiritual discipline aiming at union with the divine with deep mediation or comtemplation.
Now, my question here is: Just who is the divine to them? God? It didn't say God but "divine".
defintion of divine:
adj. 1) Being or having the nature of a deity. 2) Of or relating to a deity. 3) Superhuman; Godlike. 4) Supremely good or magnificent. n. 1) A clergyman. 2) A theologian v. 1) To foretell or prophesy. 2) To guess, infer, or conjecture.
Other words, they want to be "God" or "Godlike". I don't want to be a god for what in the heck would I even do with, much less to know, all that power to begin with. Why can't they accept who they are, nothing more than dust that God had used to create Adam? However, with God's loving help, we can strive to become better humans, physically, mentally and spiritually. And I'm sorry, we all have fallen short to the Glory of God, except for Joshua.
definition of occult:
adj. 1) Of or relating to supernatural influences, phenomena, or knowledge. 2) Beyond human understanding. 3) Available only to the initiate; secret.
See, they (meaning the gnostics, new agers, whatever) want to be more "special" than the rest of us so they go outside of their boundaries to do it. Aiding them are those think they're even more "special" creatures than any other and must destory any other creatures that will eventually be elevated by God to be above them, by any means necessary, if God allows it.
definition of witchcraft:
n. Black magic; sorcery
definition of magic:
n. 1) The art of alledged art of controlling natural events, effects, or forces by invoking charms, spells, etc. 2) The use of sleight of hand and other tricks to entertain. 3) A mysterious quality that seems to enchant.
[color=#FF0000]There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply.[/color]
No but they do view Satan having "spark" within him that must be honored. He's not inherently evil, they say, he only seems that way. And they do have tenents of new age teachings, that all religions are essentially one, etc. Also, they seem to have a special fondness of reading tarot cards and astrology. So kindly tell me again that isn't witchcraft.
Sincerely yours,
Wendy
Hi Deborah:
Deborah >> Didn’t like what you read..? Yes Gnosticism in general predated Christianity. I was talking about Christian Gnosticism. This was founded by Simon Magus...
Please forgive, Deborah, but maybe my glasses are too thick and my hair too gray, but I am having difficulty following along with who is saying what in here. Your work in the Opening Post is a good expose on a laundry list of perceived heretical teachings from a dogmatic and denominational perspective IMHO. The problem is that many facets of Paul’s teachings are indeed “according to the revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25), which makes Paul and true Christianity a Gnostic religion to everyone currently unable to see what Peters calls “these things” (2Peter 3:14-16) concerning the ‘wisdom given him.’ Applying your broad definition of ‘Gnosticism’ to everyone with a secret appears a bit reckless from my perspective, but your work exposing perceived ‘heresy’ appears quite good in places. That is my two cents on this thread and this topic. Thank you for taking the time to consider my comments.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
Deborah >> Didn’t like what you read..? Yes Gnosticism in general predated Christianity. I was talking about Christian Gnosticism. This was founded by Simon Magus...
Please forgive, Deborah, but maybe my glasses are too thick and my hair too gray, but I am having difficulty following along with who is saying what in here. Your work in the Opening Post is a good expose on a laundry list of perceived heretical teachings from a dogmatic and denominational perspective IMHO. The problem is that many facets of Paul’s teachings are indeed “according to the revelation of the mystery” (Romans 16:25), which makes Paul and true Christianity a Gnostic religion to everyone currently unable to see what Peters calls “these things” (2Peter 3:14-16) concerning the ‘wisdom given him.’ Applying your broad definition of ‘Gnosticism’ to everyone with a secret appears a bit reckless from my perspective, but your work exposing perceived ‘heresy’ appears quite good in places. That is my two cents on this thread and this topic. Thank you for taking the time to consider my comments.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral
I think I'll stick to reading and learning scripture alone as far as spiritual matters go. (It's about the only thing I've wanted to read lately, anyway.) Can't go wrong there, right?
In Christ, Angela
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Good for you!!
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Hope l don't get myself in trouble here...but as l see it Kabalah is the result of being grafted into the Babylonian tree of knowledge. This happened during the captivity. It had always been knocking on their door but now as the two peoples lived together, many of the two became one. (But not all)
After the captivity they brought back this expanded view of the Torah and reality.
Please my Jewish friends...I'm only stating what l consider a fact.
Satan has two faces. Best to recognize both.
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Witchcraft is a twig on the same limb. Both have their roots in the same tree.
In Christ, Angela
____________________________________________________________________
Good for you!!
____________________________________________________________________
Hope l don't get myself in trouble here...but as l see it Kabalah is the result of being grafted into the Babylonian tree of knowledge. This happened during the captivity. It had always been knocking on their door but now as the two peoples lived together, many of the two became one. (But not all)
After the captivity they brought back this expanded view of the Torah and reality.
Please my Jewish friends...I'm only stating what l consider a fact.
Satan has two faces. Best to recognize both.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Witchcraft is a twig on the same limb. Both have their roots in the same tree.
sticking to the scriptures...
Paul addressed gnosticism... the book is called Colossians... funny how the Laodicean church was told to read it (Col 4:16)!
we are the creature. He is the Creator.
Jesus is the Creator.
Paul addressed gnosticism... the book is called Colossians... funny how the Laodicean church was told to read it (Col 4:16)!
we are the creature. He is the Creator.
Jesus is the Creator.
Thani you Wendy...
Kabalah is seeking to be one with God There is one God and yes Yah is mysterious because as all of us know God is unsearchable" nothing compares to God... the one true God the only divine. Echad means unity. (And the husband and wife were "Echad"). So to meditate on the Shema alone from a Kabalah point of view is unsearchable, indescribable, Ya holds the earth in the palm of his hands. "Shema Yisrael, YHVH Eloheynu YHVH Echad"
The devil is just a worm. Nothing. Or may represent the base nature that must be shed to be one with God.
But I'm not wanting to promote Kabalah. I'm not yet sixty, so I don't qualify to teach it to anyone even yet forty. I just want confusion over what is and is not Kabalah straightened up. It has lots of great illustrations, but is not the gospel of Messiah.
I don't mind if you address me. this is hard to read through with no bold or quotes or enlargements.
Your main point was good. Stick with the scriptures they won't steer you wrong.
bananna
[quote name='Godisgood' date='Dec 21 2006, 02:36 AM' post='96237']
Greetings all:
Once again, Banana, this is directed toward you. Normally, I don't like to nit-pix or criticize another member's post but I have to do this:
[font=Impact]Kabalah is mystism not witchcraft. There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply. Perhaps Transendant Meditation and out of body experience would fit the bill better. Like Apostle John when he wrote Revelations.[/font]
Okay, now's the definition of mysticism:
[i]This is taken from the American Heritage dictionary[/i]
n. A spiritual discipline aiming at union with the divine with deep mediation or comtemplation.
Now, my question here is: Just who is the divine to them? God? It didn't say God but "divine".
defintion of divine:
adj. 1) Being or having the nature of a deity. 2) Of or relating to a deity. 3) Superhuman; Godlike. 4) Supremely good or magnificent. n. 1) A clergyman. 2) A theologian v. 1) To foretell or prophesy. 2) To guess, infer, or conjecture.
Other words, they want to be "God" or "Godlike". I don't want to be a god for what in the heck would I even do with, much less to know, all that power to begin with. Why can't they accept who they are, nothing more than dust that God had used to create Adam? However, with God's loving help, we can strive to become better humans, physically, mentally and spiritually. And I'm sorry, we all have fallen short to the Glory of God, except for Joshua.
definition of occult:
adj. 1) Of or relating to supernatural influences, phenomena, or knowledge. 2) Beyond human understanding. 3) Available only to the initiate; secret.
See, they (meaning the gnostics, new agers, whatever) want to be more "special" than the rest of us so they go outside of their boundaries to do it. Aiding them are those think they're even more "special" creatures than any other and must destory any other creatures that will eventually be elevated by God to be above them, by any means necessary, if God allows it.
definition of witchcraft:
n. Black magic; sorcery
definition of magic:
n. 1) The art of alledged art of controlling natural events, effects, or forces by invoking charms, spells, etc. 2) The use of sleight of hand and other tricks to entertain. 3) A mysterious quality that seems to enchant.
[color=#FF0000]There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply.[/color]
No but they do view Satan having "spark" within him that must be honored. He's not inherently evil, they say, he only seems that way. And they do have tenents of new age teachings, that all religions are essentially one, etc. Also, they seem to have a special fondness of reading tarot cards and astrology. So kindly tell me again that isn't witchcraft.
Sincerely yours,
Wendy
[/quote]
Kabalah is seeking to be one with God There is one God and yes Yah is mysterious because as all of us know God is unsearchable" nothing compares to God... the one true God the only divine. Echad means unity. (And the husband and wife were "Echad"). So to meditate on the Shema alone from a Kabalah point of view is unsearchable, indescribable, Ya holds the earth in the palm of his hands. "Shema Yisrael, YHVH Eloheynu YHVH Echad"
The devil is just a worm. Nothing. Or may represent the base nature that must be shed to be one with God.
But I'm not wanting to promote Kabalah. I'm not yet sixty, so I don't qualify to teach it to anyone even yet forty. I just want confusion over what is and is not Kabalah straightened up. It has lots of great illustrations, but is not the gospel of Messiah.
I don't mind if you address me. this is hard to read through with no bold or quotes or enlargements.
Your main point was good. Stick with the scriptures they won't steer you wrong.
bananna
[quote name='Godisgood' date='Dec 21 2006, 02:36 AM' post='96237'] Greetings all:
Once again, Banana, this is directed toward you. Normally, I don't like to nit-pix or criticize another member's post but I have to do this:
[font=Impact]Kabalah is mystism not witchcraft. There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply. Perhaps Transendant Meditation and out of body experience would fit the bill better. Like Apostle John when he wrote Revelations.[/font]
Okay, now's the definition of mysticism:
[i]This is taken from the American Heritage dictionary[/i]
n. A spiritual discipline aiming at union with the divine with deep mediation or comtemplation.
Now, my question here is: Just who is the divine to them? God? It didn't say God but "divine".
defintion of divine:
adj. 1) Being or having the nature of a deity. 2) Of or relating to a deity. 3) Superhuman; Godlike. 4) Supremely good or magnificent. n. 1) A clergyman. 2) A theologian v. 1) To foretell or prophesy. 2) To guess, infer, or conjecture.
Other words, they want to be "God" or "Godlike". I don't want to be a god for what in the heck would I even do with, much less to know, all that power to begin with. Why can't they accept who they are, nothing more than dust that God had used to create Adam? However, with God's loving help, we can strive to become better humans, physically, mentally and spiritually. And I'm sorry, we all have fallen short to the Glory of God, except for Joshua.
definition of occult:
adj. 1) Of or relating to supernatural influences, phenomena, or knowledge. 2) Beyond human understanding. 3) Available only to the initiate; secret.
See, they (meaning the gnostics, new agers, whatever) want to be more "special" than the rest of us so they go outside of their boundaries to do it. Aiding them are those think they're even more "special" creatures than any other and must destory any other creatures that will eventually be elevated by God to be above them, by any means necessary, if God allows it.
definition of witchcraft:
n. Black magic; sorcery
definition of magic:
n. 1) The art of alledged art of controlling natural events, effects, or forces by invoking charms, spells, etc. 2) The use of sleight of hand and other tricks to entertain. 3) A mysterious quality that seems to enchant.
[color=#FF0000]There is no devil to worship in kabalah so witchcraft can't apply.[/color]
No but they do view Satan having "spark" within him that must be honored. He's not inherently evil, they say, he only seems that way. And they do have tenents of new age teachings, that all religions are essentially one, etc. Also, they seem to have a special fondness of reading tarot cards and astrology. So kindly tell me again that isn't witchcraft.
Sincerely yours,
Wendy
[/quote]
Kabbalah simply means "reception."
Touted as the Religion of Avraham, before the Law was given.
It means to learn to receive in a manner to give.
Some would use it to deny any physical happenings and spiritualizing everything to the point of denying a physical Starious which Messiah was impaled upon. Some might use it to say it does not matter that Messiah was nailed to the Starious because the Spiritual corespondence would be what matters to some who study and teach it.
Please stick to real facts.
Touted as the Religion of Avraham, before the Law was given.
It means to learn to receive in a manner to give.
Some would use it to deny any physical happenings and spiritualizing everything to the point of denying a physical Starious which Messiah was impaled upon. Some might use it to say it does not matter that Messiah was nailed to the Starious because the Spiritual corespondence would be what matters to some who study and teach it.
Please stick to real facts.
Every time the Big Guy makes a way of life, the stupid one comes along and defiles it, ie, the Brazen Bull, Gnosticism, Catholicism, etc. He can't create, being soulless, so he's forced to take what exists and tarnish it with his own filth. Get used to it, and learn how to see through it.
Kabbalah...is crap. Another forgery. Did it say anything about the teachings of Kabbalah in the Pentateuch? Nope. That's because it is man made invented garbage meant to both mislead and empower those who invented it. It is the Islam of Judaism.
Kabbalah...is crap. Another forgery. Did it say anything about the teachings of Kabbalah in the Pentateuch? Nope. That's because it is man made invented garbage meant to both mislead and empower those who invented it. It is the Islam of Judaism.
Thank you all this was interesting...
Of course it is not surprising that throughout history mankind has syncritized all religious beliefs to fit his current understanding via his worldview.
At the risk of offending any Catholic readers... But it is a prime examlple of syncritization.
Virgin venus
Cupid Jesus
Demigod saints
And Pope Caezar
Syncritized Roman polythiesm in the Catholic Church.
Christianity was hit hard and fast by the surrounding worldviews. It is a miracle that anything of the message of Christ survived... and Miracle alone!!!
Of course it is not surprising that throughout history mankind has syncritized all religious beliefs to fit his current understanding via his worldview.
At the risk of offending any Catholic readers... But it is a prime examlple of syncritization.
Virgin venus
Cupid Jesus
Demigod saints
And Pope Caezar
Syncritized Roman polythiesm in the Catholic Church.
Christianity was hit hard and fast by the surrounding worldviews. It is a miracle that anything of the message of Christ survived... and Miracle alone!!!
[quote name='everwatchful' date='Feb 17 2007, 04:26 AM' post='102426']
Every time the Big Guy makes a way of life, the stupid one comes along and defiles it, ie, the Brazen Bull, Gnosticism, Catholicism, etc. He can't create, being soulless, so he's forced to take what exists and tarnish it with his own filth. Get used to it, and learn how to see through it.
Kabbalah...is crap. Another forgery. Did it say anything about the teachings of Kabbalah in the Pentateuch? Nope. That's because it is man made invented garbage meant to both mislead and empower those who invented it. It is the Islam of Judaism.
[/quote]
You might as well rip Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation out of your bible. They are full Kabalah.
Understanding meditation from a biblical standpoint promotes discernment. Unfortunately There is so much mixing with pagan faiths from both a Chrisitan and a Jewish perspective, many have become quite confused. People on both sides keep tossing the baby with the bathwater or just plain toss the baby, as a preventitive measure against dirt itsself.
Bananna
Every time the Big Guy makes a way of life, the stupid one comes along and defiles it, ie, the Brazen Bull, Gnosticism, Catholicism, etc. He can't create, being soulless, so he's forced to take what exists and tarnish it with his own filth. Get used to it, and learn how to see through it.
Kabbalah...is crap. Another forgery. Did it say anything about the teachings of Kabbalah in the Pentateuch? Nope. That's because it is man made invented garbage meant to both mislead and empower those who invented it. It is the Islam of Judaism.
[/quote]
You might as well rip Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation out of your bible. They are full Kabalah.
Understanding meditation from a biblical standpoint promotes discernment. Unfortunately There is so much mixing with pagan faiths from both a Chrisitan and a Jewish perspective, many have become quite confused. People on both sides keep tossing the baby with the bathwater or just plain toss the baby, as a preventitive measure against dirt itsself.
Bananna
We are so scared in the church of being "deceived"... somehow we have elevated Satan's power to deceive us over God's ability to lead us.
Blessings,
Caneman
Blessings,
Caneman
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