Hi Jack:
Jack's Original statements can be read in their proper context here:
http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9093
Jack's words and other quotes appear between the dotted lines. Everything else is my words.
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Jack >> "The Greek word "prototokos" "Firstborn." Did anyone search out the true meanings of this word?"
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This certainly appears to be an odd Opening Post to start off this “Prototokos’ (#4416) Topic. Obviously someone searched out the true meanings, or the term would not appear in our Bible Dictionaries. Prototokos is used only nine times in Scripture http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?strongs=4352 Matthew 1:24, 2:7.
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Jack >> "(Genesis 41:51-52 + Jeremiah 31:9) Notice that this Joseph called his firstborn Manasseh and that in the book of Jeremiah God calls his second son his firstborn. Thus we see that the word firstborn has more then one meaning."
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Notice also that the OT is written predominantly in Hebrew. Why are we discussing the Greek term (prototokos #4416) above, but now turn our attention to “b@kowr” (#1060 = http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Gen&chapter=19&verse=34&strongs=01060 ) yet Isaac is called Abraham’s “only” son.
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“He said, "Take now your son, your ONLY son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you." Genesis 22:2.
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How can Isaac be Abraham’s ‘only’ son, when Ishmael is the “b@kowr” (#1060 = firstborn)?? The key in all of these and similar exercises is that every word from God is given within the confines of particular ‘context.’ Isaac is Abraham’s ‘only’ son OF PROMISE (Romans 9:6-8) to whom the future covenant would be given.
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Jack >> "Notice that this Joseph called his firstborn Manasseh and that in the book of Jeremiah God calls his second son his firstborn. Thus we see that the word firstborn has more then one meaning."
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Yes, but that has nothing to do with the NT Greek adjective “prototokos,” which is the topic of your thread.
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Jack >> "Why am I bringing this up? Because some would have us believe that God’s Son was created when in fact the word firstborn in it’s proper context simply means that He has all supremacy."
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No sir. Vines’ definition http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible/vines/get_defn.pl?num=1056#1 is a little bit more complicated than you suggest:
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PROTOTOKOS "firstborn" (from protos, "first," and tikto, "to beget"), is used of Christ as born of the Virgin Mary, Luke_2:7; further, in His relationship to the Father, expressing [b]HIS PRIORITY TO, AND, AND PREEMINENCE OVER, CREATION, not in the sense of being the "first" to be born. It is used occasionally of superiority of position in the OT; see Ex_4:22; Deut_21:16,17, the prohibition being against the evil of assigning the privileged position of the "firstborn" to one born subsequently to the "first" child.
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Christ had glory with the Father “BEFORE THE WORLD WAS” (John 17:3), as all things in this universe were called into being by Him and for Him. Col. 1:16. Therefore, we can conclude that Paul is teaching beyond the context of Christ’s ‘incarnation’ that began in the womb of the woman. However, this also does not exclude the fact that “The Word” standing “with God” (John 1:2) ALSO represents an ‘incarnation’ of God’s Living “The Word” IN whom our entire universe has been called into being. In other words, God and His Word are indeed “One” and the same in His Infinite Realm where Christ is the ‘POWER OF GOD and the WISDOM OF GOD’ (1Cor. 1:24). The Word of God (F+S+HS) had to become ‘incarnate’ (seen), so this entire universe could ‘then’ be created “IN HIM.” Otherwise this ‘domain of darkness’ (Col. 1:13) would already be IN God’s Infinite Realm even now. This means that Jesus Christ walking around on this planet is the ‘incarnation’ of “The Word” made flesh “IN” Heaven, but ‘made flesh’ on this earth. Note carefully that we have been seated “with Christ” (Jesus Christ) in the heavenly places that are indeed “IN” Christ Jesus.
Christ Jesus is the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) in one Heavenly “man” (1Tim. 2:5). Jesus Christ on the earth is the “Son of” THAT Heavenly “Man.” Therefore, Paul’s teaching is focusing on “Christ Jesus” IN whom this entire universe was created AND “IN” whom all things are indeed held together (Col. 1:17). All things includes “Jesus Christ” who has been seated “IN” the heavenly places (and us “with Him”) IN Christ Jesus (F+S+HS = The Word). Ephesians 2:6. Christ Jesus became the ‘firstborn’ Son OF GOD loooongggg before God sent Him into the world to save sinners. The incarnation of “Jesus Christ” in the womb of the woman is the antitype of the Father and Holy Spirit joining IN HEAVEN, so “The Son” became the “Only Begotten Son OF GOD.” John 3:18. In other words, Jesus Christ on this earth is everything that “Christ Jesus” is in heaven.
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Jack >> "Paul's usage of the word firstborn (prototokos) in Colossians 1:15 simply refers to Christ's supremacy and not His birth."
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Paul is talking about “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS as ONE) and not about Jesus of the flesh at all (2Cor. 5:16-17 = “NO LONGER.”) Can you envision this entire universe being ‘IN’ Jesus of the flesh and held together “IN” His earthy body? No sir. Paul saying that Christ is the “IMAGE of the Invisible God” means He is ‘almost’ Infinite, which is why everything in this universe can easily fit “IN” Him. Since The Word “PROCEEDED FORTH and has come FROM GOD” (John 8:42), then “Christ Jesus” (F+S+HS) is indeed the firstborn from God IN whom this universe is contained. Can anyone here be called the ‘brother’ of that almost infinite Heavenly “man” (1Tim. 2:5) standing at the right hand of God “IN” whom Jesus Christ and us with Him have been seated? NO!! This is where Paul separates Jesus Christ of the flesh AND Christ Jesus IN whom our universe is held together, saying,
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“And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become "conformed to the image of HIS SON", so that He would be the "firstborn*" among many brethren . . .”. Romans 8:28-29.
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Here Paul uses the same “prototokos” (#4416) term to say that Jesus Christ is indeed the ‘firstborn’ among many brethren (that’s us). This teaching from Paul has nothing to do with “Christ Jesus,” but everything to do with Jesus Christ who God raised from the dead and seated above “all the heavens” (Eph. 4:10) “IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:6) and us “with Him.” That’s right! Everyone who hears (Romans 10:17) and believes (Eph. 1:13-14) Paul’s “word of the cross” (1Cor. 1:18) gospel message is “created IN Christ Jesus” (Eph. 2:10) to become that ‘NEW CREATURE’ (2Cor. 5:16-17) part of that “NEW CREATION” (Gal. 6:15) IN Christ Jesus “with Christ.” Remember that “Jesus Christ” who is right now “IN” Christ Jesus is the ‘incarnation’ of the Larger Heavenly Man “Christ Jesus.” Therefore, Jesus Christ being “IN” Christ Jesus is typical of “Christ in you” (Col. 1:17) and the new “INNER MAN” (Romans 7:22, 2Cor. 4:16, Eph. 3:16) IN us, but in Heaven above. This is a complicated teaching to describe using mere words, but this diagram might help:
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/56.jpg
God’s Word being restored (F+S+HS) is found in Figure 2, but our earth is located in the visible water witness of the Visible Universe of Figure 3. The “Invisible Universe” represents all the ‘heavens’ (Eph. 4:10) of This Creation, as we are seated “with Christ” in the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus. Believers are being conformed to the image of His Son (Jesus Christ), as the firstborn (raised from the dead and seated) from the dead. That made Jesus Christ a brand new ‘creation’ that never existed before in this universe. THAT is the ‘image’ every believer in our gospel is being conformed into, which is the ‘glorified’ version of “Christ Jesus” in an ‘incarnation’ (appearance AS A MAN = Phil. 2:8) form. All of us have been baptized INTO Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:27) to be conformed into the image of Jesus Christ. : 0 )
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Jack >> "Thus the word firstborn (Prototokos) in it’s proper context is a legal term and not a biological one. It simply means, "first in rank, status, pre-eminent, supreme, superior, and unique."
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No Jack. We cannot change the alternate uses for this term by pounding your square peg into a round hole using a very large hammer. You can only use that kind of tactic, when a term is used in a single context only. How does your new definition fit with how God uses the term here?
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“And she gave birth to her "firstborn" son; and she wrapped Him in cloths, and laid Him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.” Luke 2:7.
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Prototokos is an adjective that describes a noun (son) saying that Jesus was born ahead of His ‘supposed’ brothers and sisters from Mary. We cannot find a single thing in this verse pointing to ‘legality’ over ‘biology.’ Our ‘definitions’ do not determine the true ‘context’ of any word, but we must read how God is using the term and determine ‘His’ context and allow our definitions to work accordingly. This is why Vines uses Scriptural references in his definitions to allow Scripture to tell us the true context.
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Jack >> "As you saw, a person can be firstborn but not born first."
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Does this mean we should search out another to become the firstborn of all creation other than Christ? No. Can we use your thesis and conclusions to prove beyond all doubt that Christ is indeed the firstborn and not born first? If so, then where can we find His replacement? While I can see what you are driving at, your model cannot be used by everyone to draw the same conclusions. I believe adhering to Vines’ definitions through and understanding of proper context is the answer.
In Christ Jesus,
Terral