Hi, I would like to hear your thoughts on what you think this verse means:


John4:24 "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." --Jesus



Blessings,

Caneman

You can't see spiritual things, and since God is spirit, he is invisible. Worshipping something that is invisible will be always different from worshipping visible things. Godly worship only works on the spiritual level.

I am thinking of the way Abel offered to God (a blood sacrifice) and how it was different from Cain's offering (the fruit of his work). Abel knew and understood that a blood sacrifice was needed for atonement.
He saw beyond the slain animal and understood the spiritual significance of shed innocent blood that laid behind...

This is my take on it...

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

You have to be in the Spirit and in the word....

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb 11:6

Jesus is talking with a Samaritan woman, who is telling Him that her people worship God on a mountain and the Jews worship in Jerusalem. Jesus tells her:

John 4:22 "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23
But the hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him."

What Jesus is telling her is that the law (or the works of the flesh) is over with and a new covenant is being made in the Spirit. In Rev 21:2 John tells us "Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for Her Husband."

He tells her that the Jews know what they worship because worshiping in Jerusalem is correct, but the hour is coming that the "true worshipers" (the New Jerusalem) will be the true Jeusalem that is Spirit and worships as the perfect, and without spot, Bride, who are no longer under law but grace, and that true worship is in Spirit (Reborn) and Truth (Christ).

His Name be praised!
In Christ
Chris

Last night I was reminded of David being anointed as King. The Lord had instructed the Prophet Samuel to go and that God would show him who was to be His chosen! From the worlds perspective they would have chosen the Oldest, the strongest or the best looking!

I Samuel 16:7

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart!

God is not interested in the flesh but the spirit! It is a heart condition. His ways are not our ways! He looks inwardly on the Heart, man Looks outwardly!


Ezekiel 36:26
26 A new heart also will I give you, a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of you flesh, and I will give you a heart flesh

27 and I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statues, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them!

It is not going through the robotic motions of the flesh! Anyone can read the Word, go to church or even cast out demons in Jesus name but that does not mean you are worshiping God!

You must truly enter in to that place, One must go beyond the Veil, and enter into that Holy Place!

I agree that He is prophetically speaking of the New Covenant. To worship God in the Spirit you have to have His spirit dwelling and living in you. The only possible way for this to occur is to be born of the Spirit. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit! Ye must be born again!

In Spirit and in Truth Worship HiM! Fall on Your Knees, Wash His feet with your tears! Be Broken and spilled Out on Him and Anoint the Most Holy with the Oil from your Alabaster Box!


Your Friend in Christ,
Val
Messiahiscoming

This is a good answer. senteami3
The only thing that I would add is, Christ Jesus showed us the way to worshipping God in Spirit and truth. The closer you are to walking as Chhrist Jesus walked, Talking as Christ Jesus talked and doing what Christ Jesus did. The closer you are to the worship that pleases God.

Truth is how you enter into the Spirit. Being honest before the Lord and confessing the things pent up pushes the veil aside. Sometimes we think this is easy....but it's no easy thing.

If you're babbling in tongues all the time it can become a ruse. You are fooling yourself that this is all you have to do. Just babble along and God wil fix everything through your secret prayer language.

Having a personal relationship with the Lord is just that. It's very personal. He wants to fix us daily. When we enter in this way it pleases him. But if you've been holding back don't expect a quick fix.

Should we lift unclean hands?

I couldn't agree with you more here. If there is no love when you engage in speaking in tongues then you become a "a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal" [1 Cor 13:1]. However, if you come to Him with love and neediness then speaking in tongues can be wonderful way to enter in to His presence. Speaking of tongues can be an entry point to intimacy with Jesus if you use it as a tool for that purpose.

I would agree that I think most of us speak in tongues way too fast, and we need to slow down and let the words bathe His Spirit within us.... when you begin to feel your spirit rise up with His presence then stop speaking the tongues and love Him there and enjoy Him! There is healing in His presence, and one can use the gift of tongues given to them to enter in and receive healing from Him.

Blessings,

Caneman

And not only that Caneman...but he WANTS to talk to us and he wants us to talk to him. In honesty, laying it all down, so he has the added opportunity of showing us that he will answer our prayers. This is how he ministers to us. Not that there aren't other ways, but he loves the intimacy. Let's not grieve him with our babbling. Truth comes first...then spirit.

Yes, it is all about the intimacy with Him, no question about it. But it has to be in spirit AND truth John 4:24, both are required Jesus likes us to come to him with words of intimicy from our mind and with tongues, for He did say that we would speak in tongues (Mark 16). I hope you don't think of tongues as babbling, even though that is what you typically hear in church or on TV... it really can be an intimate expression of love with Him. It has been a wonderful way for me to enter in to His presence. I don't know about you, but there are many times when I am desperate for His presence and it seems 1,000,000 miles away and that is when I can use those special words given to me by the Holy Spirit to build up my spirit until His presence is released to me... it really is a wonderful tool given by the Holy Spirit, but unfortunately it has been misused and wrongly glorified in some parts of the church. Tongues should never be the "high water" mark or your relationship with Jesus, it is just a tool and is only a beginning. Really, most of us need to slow down with the glossolalia, or there is no way you are qoing to sense His presence!

Blessings,

Caneman

We are supposed to do BOTH...

1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

I forgot to add.... that I don't believe that the "in spirit" part of John 4:24 means speaking in tongues. I think too many times whenever we read "in spirit" or "in the spirit" we automatically assume it means tongues. FWIW

Caneman

I never saw it that way either...I think it means that we must worship God like this....Psa 42:7 Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me. Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

True worship is obedience. Everything we are and everything we have is an outflow from that.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

I agree with you Caneman. But everybody has been dry.......Why?

Because you aren't coming in truth.

You can try to babble till you're blue in the face but it's not coming through anything but your unclean lips. No l don't think it's babbling unless it's done out of flesh...

For not doing what ferv has said:



Because the kingdom of heaven is with in you. You're not going in (to the Spirit) no matter how much you try to speak in tongues. It's not a gate pass. "abracadabra" God want's you to deal with issues FIRST.

One time l couldn't get into the Spirit in prayer...I couldn't pray in the Spirit (tongues) either...After much weeping God told me "You don't do what l say so why should l speak"? No dah! I never forgot it. Am l perfect now? No...but when ever l'm having a dry time l look to myself...I don't try to force tongues like some kind of a machine to fix it. To me that's what's so obnoxious about tongues...You go to a certain church and hear these people blabbering away and you know what their lives are like...It's enough to drive any sane person away!!!

Of course in this there appears to be a latent suggestion of need that "all is right with my soul" before one can hope to "enter in" and that is true to a good degree. "But God" meets one in that exact place. In the situation you speak of here, it was pretty much a point of contest with God or He would have related to you as forthrightly as always. Getting a spiritual roadblock out of the way is obviously important, but it also depends on the level of growth one has attained. There is a latitude of movement (sideways) that a new believer is allowed which does not come easily for someone who is trained up in the word.

At a time when I was a new believer by a few months, I was feeling weepy about my plight in life and I used a verse of scripture to describe how I felt about myself. I said, "Lord I am like unto a whited sepulchre, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead [men's] bones, and of all uncleanness." Can I tell you that gentle nudge which came sent me reeling? For the words I heard in my inner man were simply, "This witness is true." From that day forward He began to show me things which made that witness true and it continues today, although I have grown a tad hard of hearing even though my commitment to God has always been to maintain a teachable spirit. Isa 26:3 Thou wilt keep [him] in perfect peace, [whose] mind [is] stayed [on thee]: because he trusteth in thee.

Praying in the spirit can also be dry and lifeless, and when it is you simply "know it." For me when the connection is made, there is a sense of proximity to One who has the ears to hear and it begins to take on a dimension of salt and light and powerful persuasion that the Lord Himself is leading the direction of words in keeping with that wonderful passage of scripture, Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and that follows into a knowing Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

May we continue to be so blessed.

Really?

Malachi has said.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/com...&Select.y=9

We kid ourselves into thinking we can't see it and rely on tongues to carry us through adding sin to sin. Like having and abortion to correct a mistake or divorce to correct a wrong choice in marriage. Truth is what wants to well up in or being. Then truth will over flow our mouths and lives.

Hi, intersting response, so what does this mean to you?


Caneman

Hi, I think I see where you are coming from and I do in agree in part. When we come to God we must deal with sin issues first.... if they are there! When I come to draw near to Him I don't think about sin unless the Spirit points it out to me. This works for me, but it may not work for others. It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict us of our sin, it is not our job to do that! The sin-centered self-sacrifice orientiation keeps many people from entering in and experiencing an inward life in God... Let's trust the Holy Spirit to do His job in us, then listen and obey. Tongues is a gift from the Holy Spirit and not a mechanical procedure, it is a precious gift given to us to use as a means to experience the life of God in us, lets not complicate it but rather enjoy the gift given to us. Beating yourself up before before you try to come to God is disrespecting the blood sacrifice of Jesus.

I really like to look at it this way: "Are you a sinner who tries to love God, or are you a lover of God who occasionally struggles with sin". We are not to have a sin identity and sin orientation about ourselfs, God does not see us as sinners, he sees us as saints.

Dry times can be caused by several sources... IMO for the sincere seeker of God dry times come from God to create a larger hunger for Himself inside of us, and it is not a result of any sins committed. God is a God that hides himself at times, and He will do this to create dryness so that our self-life can die, and so that He can create more roof for Himself in our hearts. Jesus will pull away so that self can be revealed, it is only when we carry about the "death of Jesus" in us that His life can be released in us.

Blessings,

Caneman

This sounds generic and to a degree self serving. (Not necessarily in a 'bad'way) The reference was, Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. I would extrapolate that to a level of understanding beyond the words of a mortal who may or may not have filtered through his Psyche.



If that were true why the signature? (Men often stumble on the Truth, but usually dust themselves off & hurry away..." - Winston Churchill)

I submit that it because even a respected man such as Churchill had issues. Is truth what wants to well up? Or is it a supposition of truth? I guess all I am saying is that Paul said it best...1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Of course, this is also a supposition that Paul was writing with inspiration. But my "vast training" (sic) has occasioned me to default to that understanding, for if I cannot trust this word then I cannot trust at all.

What it means to me is what is encapsulated within the words I just wrote above.

To dress rehearsal...

I think it means that we must worship God like this....Psa 42:7 Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me. Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

True worship is obedience. Everything we are and everything we have is an outflow from that.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

It is only about obedience? So for you, there is no loving interaction with a Personal God who resides in the deepest part of your being? I am not trying to be condescending, but its that God is not really interested in activity driven from our own efforts, He tells us we can do nothing without Him.

For me the outflow is that He first loved me, and continues to love me, and that is what empowers the desire for obedience... He empowers the obedience out of abiding in His love for me... He always provides the grace to perform His commandments, and that includes the 1st commandment.

Caneman

Of course there are issues we don't understand or know about fervent. But there are also ones we do know about that we've conveniently put on the back burner hoping will go away or tongues will cover it.

But l think you know that....

That's the true message of Malachi you posted my way. When you don't deal with issues you become hardened to them. Tongues won't make it better. Facing it makes them better. This is the true meaning of confession. Confession in (is) truth. Because truth leads to worshiping in the Spirit. In Spirit and in Truth ... l still believe truth is a prerequisite. Not the other way around.

Maybe my fluency of words is a rhetorical exchange which misses the mark in verbiage. But you have and do speak well. That which I am trying to express is couched in obedience. But it is also couched in love. I had an incident with my dog the other day. He chewed up the recharger for my cell phone. I had to get a new one for thirty bucks. I was angry that the dog did that. That was an act of disobedience and he "knows better" (as much as a dog 'knows' anything.) I put him in his cage a few hours. But afterwards I picked him up and loved on him again. He is my dog. I love him. The Lord does no less differently with us. So, although obedience is a door, love is the key that unlocks it, both our love for God and His love for us. But at the end of the day He still expects that of us. Even as I will not be pleased the next time my dog does some act of puppyhood.


I see my lopsidededness (in that I do not have issues that are swept under the rug.) I have long realized the potency of certain passages. So thinking outside the box in that area has not been a thing for me. I see a point is made however and certainly a point to be recognized.

Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things [are] naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Pro 15:3 The eyes of the LORD [are] in every place, beholding the evil and the good.

Good Word!

HI Fervent... I think I am getting closer to understanding to where you are coming from, but I must admit that the God you serve seems either "mostly mad or mostly sad". Jesus never "puts me in a cage for a few hours" because "I know better", and "the Lord does no less differently with us", or "not be pleased the next time I commit an act of puppyhood". My Jesus is mostly "glad" all the time, He is the most happy and joyous person I have ever known. He is tender, kind, compassionate with me when I stumble, always glad to embrace me when I run to Him in these situations (that is, in my puppyhood), I have no fear of Him in my weakness (and puppyhood). I am confident in His love for me in my weak and broken state as an imperfect human, that is the awesome God I love and serve, who is "mostly glad" with me all the time. This is going to sound "off" and conceited, but it is founded in knowing myh own depravity apart from Him, but I know and experience that Jesus takes great pleasure and delight in me!

I do, however, appreciate fully your comment that "love is the key that unlocks it (obedience)"... and I would say that you and I have no power to be obedient to Him, we only have desire and then the ability to receive power from the Holy Spirit to be obedient to Him.

Blessings to you brother, I am not picking on you, but these are important issues to sort out.

Caneman

Hi Miki, seems like you have a sin problem! Seems like you are trying to wrap in forgiveness with tongues... I don't see these two things of God as being related at all. I don't think I or anyone else in this thread has tried to send the message that speaking in tongues will give you forgiveness with God, or that if you have hurts or pains or unconfessed sin then all you must do is speak in tongues and it all goes away. There is no question that if we have sin in our lives then we will not be able to experience the fullness of the Kingdom within, and if we don't deal with "issues" then we can develop a hard heart. However, I think there are so many that curse themselves in to in to thinking that they need to peform a self-imposed sin confession every time they want to come to the presence of Jesus that they never do enter in at all... does Jesus tell us to do this? No, He tells us to enter the throne of grace with boldness. It is the Holy Spirit's job to convict us of sin and He is really good at it, if He points something out then bring it to Jesus immediately, it He doens't point anything out (sin) then enjoy peace with Jesus...

So, putting aside forgiveness and confession of sin for now, I think that all I or anyone else has said is that tongues CAN (that is may, or is a possibility, or could) be a means to entering the presence of God within your spirit... thats all I am saying! For me, it has been a wonderful tool to enter in to His presence in my spirit, as I am in total poverty in and of myself, but when I come to Him who lives in my spirit as a helpless child He then receives me and gives me Himself... this is true wealth and riches, His presence within.

You can have the opinion that "truth" has to happen first before worship, but Jesus says that the TRUE worshipers will worship the Father in spirit AND truth... they are both required and one has not been elevated above the other, Jesus says they are both equal and important. What I can see, though, is that a true worshipper will aready have dealt with the sin issues and repentance, these are elementary issues with Jesus, and He wants us to come to Him to sit in His presence and move on to maturity.... so if that is already dealt with, then, (that is the sin issues), what is it that we must to do worship in "spirit", and worship in "truth"...


Caneman


PS, please don't think I am trying to go in this direction: that is not my intention, just good conversation!

Actually Caneman, you need to see that God does contain us in a "cage" for out own protection at times. I am not saying that in a "mean" way, but in a practical understanding. I can tell you that God will do with us exactly the way we do for our own children, or even the family dog. There are things I know will endanger my kids or my dog, and to just "do nothing" while they perform or live out those things is tantamount to misguided parenting. Do you not see God will do these things to prevent serious harm? It has nothing to do with my version of a somewhat puppet Jesus being mad glad or sad all the time. We talk about Christianity as being a relationship, but then will we deny the performance of that relationship? It is not based upon an "emotion" with God, but a practical outflowing of what is best. Let us say by way of example, that I want a million dollars. Now there is nothing I can see which speaks against me having that much money. But God does know if my heart and intelect and spiritual makeup would not run amok if I were so entreated. In an off handed way it could be like locking a drunk up in a liquor store. I am not doing a good job here of explaining the thoughts as I have too many hours of waketime to allow for the fully charged battery to flow.

I like this conversation and l like you Caneman. Here you said to ferv....



This is an amen.

And as far as the tongues issue and sin issue I do get hung up on tongues being used this way and l guess l was looking for an opportunity to vent it. I'm just suspecting that some people wrap forgivness with tongues. I don't know why l want to harp on this... Sin...Yes. Sin issues...How about personal strongholds. That works better for me.

And ferv... you are right. I agree about cages except l think we step through the door ourselves. It's our own deeds that create the cages or strongholds...

A family l was working with through the Outreach in our community have a son in jail. I am so thankful because l know he will be safe. The world sees it with shame. Maybe it is shameful too. BUT I'AM SO GRATEFUL FOR IT! This poor boy has never had a chance in life. I pray for him often. He'd be dead if not for prayer and jail.

Brothers/Sisters/Children/Friends:
God makes it very easy to enter His Kingdom but Satan makes it very difficult to leave the world.
Worship God in Spirit and Truth can be likened to the Israelites who obeyed and followed God through Moses to place the blood of the lamb on their doorposts (Blood Baptism), cross through the Red Sea (Water Baptism), and then cross the Jordan River and enter into the Promised Land (Holy Spirit Baptism). All three were received separately then just as they are received separately today. All three agree as One.
Amen. All glory and praise to God of the Lord Jesus Christ.

It means to emulate what God has shown us through Yehoshuah(Jesus).
We likewise demonstrate by obedience and denial of the flesh... Just lke he did.
banananna