Greetings,
I found this section and thought it prudent to put in a word here about my personal observance, since many often strongly object to me following Torah. I did not want the thread on heresies to digress if I answered anyones objections. These are my personal convictions and not to be construed as something I would ask another to follow.

I am a Torah observant Gentile. I practice according to covenant theology and the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. I believe all gentiles were grafted into the covenant in the book of Dueteronomy. Covenants are eternal. They cannot be broken. As I have been grafted into the branch of David our precious Lord and savior, I expect that I will be conformed to his image, even that of a Jew born in Israel. I am far from that, but it looks to be the final outcome of such a grafting.

Deu 29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that [is] in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
Deu 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
Deu 29:13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and [that] he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Deu 29:14 ¶ Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
Deu 29:15 But with [him] that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with [him] that [is] not here with us this day:

Even though I know these blessings and curses apply to all men the Torah is not a burden to me. The reason it is not a burden to me is because I love my commander and chief who has purchased me from out of death and distruction before I knew I was on a path of destruction. No one has bewitched me into thinking the Torah observanace makes me righteous for Christ is my righteousness.

Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19 I [am] a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.[/quote]

Most Christians keep the same Torah I do, they just don't realize it. Love God, Love neighbor, honor parents. All these things Christ fulfilled yet we do them without argument and without condemning one another.

So all I ask is that people respect where I am at spiritually and give me the same grace to follow all of Torah which I am able to, with the same grace and encouragement I give others to follow the speed limit or any other ordinance in place for our protection.

Blessings
bananna

[quote name='Bananna' date='Nov 20 2006, 06:53 PM' post='92644']
Greetings,
I found this section and thought it prudent to put in a word here about my personal observance, since many often strongly object to me following Torah. I did not want the thread on heresies to digress if I answered anyones objections. These are my personal convictions and not to be construed as something I would ask another to follow.

I am a Torah observant Gentile. I practice according to covenant theology and the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation. I believe all gentiles were grafted into the covenant in the book of Dueteronomy. Covenants are eternal. They cannot be broken. As I have been grafted into the branch of David our precious Lord and savior, I expect that I will be conformed to his image, even that of a Jew born in Israel. I am far from that, but it looks to be the final outcome of such a grafting.
[quote]Deu 29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that [is] in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water:
Deu 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the LORD thy God, and into his oath, which the LORD thy God maketh with thee this day:
Deu 29:13 That he may establish thee to day for a people unto himself, and [that] he may be unto thee a God, as he hath said unto thee, and as he hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Deu 29:14 ¶ Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
Deu 29:15 But [b]with [him] that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with [him] that [is] not here with us this day:[/b][/quote]
Even though I know these blessings and curses apply to all men the Torah is not a burden to me. The reason it is not a burden to me is because I love my commander and chief who has purchased me from out of death and distruction before I knew I was on a path of destruction. No one has bewitched me into thinking the Torah observanace makes me righteous for Christ is my righteousness.
[quote]Psa 119:18 Open thou mine eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of thy law.
Psa 119:19 I [am] a stranger in the earth: hide not thy commandments from me.[/quote]

Most Christians keep the same Torah I do, they just don't realize it. Love God, Love neighbor, honor parents. All these things Christ fulfilled yet we do them without argument and without condemning one another.

So all I ask is that people respect where I am at spiritually and give me the same grace to follow all of Torah which I am able to, with the same grace and encouragement I give others to follow the speed limit or any other ordinance in place for our protection.

Blessings
bananna
[/quote]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



[b]"Covenants are eternal. They cannot be broken." [/b]

But they can be replaced... That is why Jesus fulfilled the law and that is why there is a new covenant based upon better promises.

Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope [did]; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Heb 9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

No Covenants cannot be replaced. One may make another convenant, but it cannot void the previous covenant
.
Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.
15 That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past.


There is in my opinion some confussion about covenants in the scriptures. Some are inclusive as is the one in Deuteronomy 29 that ultimately was up held by our Lord Yehoshuah (Jesus). It is eternally binding and cannot be revoked. Some are individual and do not apply to all. There are at least seven covenants in scripture.

Our punishment was paid in full - for past present an future transgressions of the covennant "If" we believe Yehoshuah(Jesus) as our Messiah.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

till all /panta be -becoming


http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat5.pdf

the word trranslated fulfill is not what is commonly thought to mean.
fulfil
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being

2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen

a) of events

3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage

a) of men appearing in public

4) to be made, finished

a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought

5) to become, be made

There will come a day when the torah will be etched on every heart and each no one will have to tell any other person - "Know the Lord" for all on the earth will know the Lord and the Torah in that day.

However even in the English we can dlearly see that not all prophesies have come to pass, there simply are many left unfulfilled, so either way Torah for me is an important way for me to show my love to the Father who prepared them fromt he foundation of the world that I might walk in them.

Furthermore the blood of rams and Goats were never the hope of salvation. There are literally many laws and sacrifices to be done daily, but never were they a form of salvation.

Here is just a portion of Hebrews 11
Hbr 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
11:2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 ¶ By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Hope in G-d to bring our salvation has been from the beginning the only way to G-d. To G-d the moment he thought it the work of Yehoshuah was done. Avraham is saved by the same grace as you and I.
bananna

Hello Banana! Welcome. His law is to be writen on our mind and in our hearts. Jer 31. I think you do understand that. I love his law too. It is what Ps. 119 is all about. Of course I'm not speaking of the ceremonial law. The laws were a type of the kingdom and Jesus' fulfillment of the requirements of God. I too seek to be remade in His image. Be blessed, David

I also love the law of the Lord and I am being transformed into His image daily.
I am led by the Spirit.
Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

I can understand why you want to do this. I wish you won't, but you do :-)

As far as God not breaking a covenant. Its not totally true you know. God has in fact broken covenant, because of Israels unbelief.

Have a look at where Jesus curses the fig tree (Israel) for not bearing fruit.

Here is the first time it crosses His mind to do so, but dear Moses talked Him out of it

(Num.14:11) And the Lord said unto Moses, How long will this people despise me? and how long will they not believe in me, for all the signs which I have wrought among them? (12) I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a nation greater and mightier than they.

...disinherit them...


(Num.14:23) Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that despised me see it. (30) surely ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware that I would make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun. (34) and ye shall know my alienation (Hebrew: “revoking of my promise”).

well, they went too far and even though God started bringing them out, changed His mind and let them die in the wilderness.
Rom 11

19You will say then, Branches were broken (pruned) off so that I might be grafted in!

20That is true. But they were broken (pruned) off because of their unbelief (their lack of real faith), and you are established through faith [because you do believe]. So do not become proud and conceited, but rather stand in awe and be reverently afraid.

21For if God did not spare the natural branches [because of unbelief], neither will He spare you [if you are guilty of the same offense].

22Then note and appreciate the gracious kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's gracious kindness to you--provided you continue in His grace and abide in His kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (pruned away).

".....PROVIDED you continue in His grace and abide in His kindness...otherwise you too will be cut off."

Its all about Christ, the Word that became flesh.
Christians follow the law of God that is written on their hearts by the Spirit. We do not observe the Old Covenant , we have been grafted into Jesus, Who is the vine and we are the branches. If we stay in Him (the Word) his life flows through to us.

Again
covenant is a permanent contract that cannot be broken. It cannot be changed. It cannot be abandoned. It cannot be revoked. As those in the contract walked between the animals that were cut in half - it was a commitment that meant "may this be done to me if I should fail to keep one iota of this contract" It was made with the Power of the King over the weaker or conquered nation. The Victor had to abide by the contract. When G-d says "whatever the Lord does lasts forever" it means litereally forever without ceasing to be.

There is more than one contracted covenant listed in the bible between G-d and man kind. You need to know the rules of the contract, to know your obligation and how to access the promises of the one who contracted it. Not all contracted covenants apply to all men/women. Only some of them are universal. I have chosen the Covenant promise to Israel AND the Whole world of believers and unbelievers to start sharing the idea of covenant thinking and Torah observance. There are more covenants that do not apply to me. This one in Dewt 29 is for me.

I am not under the law. The Law cannot condemn me. I love G-d and want to walk in all HIS ways. There is no law against me keeping the commands when ever I am lawfully able. I do so because I love G-d.

I don't eat card board. It is not food. I don't eat pig. G-d said it is not food. I might find it icky if you ate cardboard, but the pig would not phase me. I have no right to judge your observance or lack there of. If I was at your house and you served me pork because you did not know I don't eat pig, i would likely just eat vegetables. Just like if you served me any food that I was allergic to or caused me ill health, I would simply drink water and ask you not to change the menue I was there for fellowship and not food anyway.
Though I try to remind people that as long as they have vegetables traif free, That is all I ask - most of my friends love me enough that it is not bondage to serve chicken instead of pork. And for those that don't want to bother, they don't invite me.

When we get to heaven you come on over to my mansion and I'll show you how to cook greens without ham hocks. After all this is just the dress rehersal. What does one then expect to do at the real wing ding?
Bananna

Hi Banana,

Fervent wrote that covenants can not be broken, but they can be replaced by something better. He is entirely correct! The Apostle Paul wrote about the 'New Covenant' that JESUS CHRIST, our LORD, SAVIOR and GOD, the very manifestation of the FATHER and the WORD made flesh, bought for us through HIS sacrificial death upon the cross and resurrection to glory:

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also [b]he is the mediator of a better covenant[/b], [b]which was established upon better promises[/b].
Heb 8:7 [b]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second[/b].
Heb 8:8 [b]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah[/b]:
Heb 8:9 [b]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant[/b], and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 [b]For this is [u]the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:[/u] and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people[/b]:
Heb 8:11 [b][i]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord[/i]: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest [/b] .
Heb 8:12 [b][i]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more[/i][/b].
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, [u][i][u]A new covenant[/u][/i][/u], [b][u][i]he hath made the first old[/i][/u][/b]. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 12:24 And to [b][u]Jesus the mediator of the new covenant[/u][/b], and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Paul clearly shows us here that JESUS brought a NEW COVENANT. The New Covenant of CHRIST provides for forgiveness of sins, the imputation of JESUS' righteousness through faith in CHRIST alone (not by following laws to justify oneself - justification comes only through faith in JESUS CHRIST, which clearly you know as you have stated earlier that JESUS is the LORD and our SAVIOR). We are justified by faith in JESUS CHRIST, not by external actions. When combined - trusting CHRIST that we are saved through faith in HIM - with the ministry of the HOLY SPIRIT having written GOD's law in our hearts - the true picture of eternal life in CHRIST is revealed through the daily life of the believer walking in the SPIRIT (Romans 8:1-16):

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Please see Romans 8:5 -16 as well about walking in the SPIRIT).

If you don't tell people that JESUS can only be called a certain name (there are some many spellings of Yeshua - see? There is one now!), that the FATHER can only be called by a certain name, and that they need to follow certain traditions or laws - whichever ones you think are the appropriate ones for gentiles to follow - then we will most likely not have a problem. Lots of legalists come to the forum and tell us what we should be doing, which festivals we should be observing, what foods we ought to eat or not eat, which spellings and names to use, etc. They seek their way into heaven, hoping to please GOD through their own actions, justifying themselves through their own actions and claiming it is for HIS glory when really it is for their own.

Please don't be like that, because it is not the SPIRIT of CHRIST that does that - it is the vain, puffed up fleshly mind that does those things.

Blessings to you through the law of liberty that is manifested in the believer's daily spiritual walk with JESUS CHRIST THE LORD!

Num 14
(30) surely ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware that I would make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.
God “revoked his promise”
First He said: concerning which I sware that I would make YOU dwell therein.
And then...: "surely YE shall NOT come in"

God does not need to keep His side, if we move away from Him through unbelief. Israel saw the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, yet they did not believe that God could protect them from the giants, they also complained about His provision, wanting to go back to Egypt. God turned on them in anger and broke His promise to that generation and killed them all in the wilderness.

We as Christians are in a similar situation. We believe in God, tell everybody about Jesus, but when it comes to trusting Him for His promises.....well then this is where it gets tricky. Does He heal, will He heal, will He supply, protect, help, set free, deliver. etc....so we are in the same situation and God will have the same reaction as with Israel. Same God...Who never changes.


No faith in His ability to bring His Word /promises to pass will bring the same result: death.

Even is we call His name and perform miracles and keep every law.

God is looking for a people of faith and not a people of religion. Religion divides. Religion says:.you keep the law better than me, I do not keep verse 12, but you do. etc.

Bananna, you know that it is true, the law issue is a divider. It causes division amongst people. It focuses on the person and his or her ability to succeed in keeping rules and regulations. That is why God had to make a New Covenant, one that has a Sabbath IN it. Jesus Christ. In Him we rest , He must be our Sabbath, for He is true to His Word, for He IS the Word that became flesh. We rest from our works to bring healing, provision, deliverance , because we have to believe that He has done it all at the cross. He gave us all of that and now expects us to rest in our faith that He is good and loving and true and that He will ALWAYS bring His Word to pass.

That is also why the Sabbath is mentioned in the Ten Commandments. The rest are moral laws. So the nine are laws that love does not break. And the Sabbath law, is the law of faith in the Lord of all. The “rest” that some cannot enter, because of a lack of faith. Cease from your own works and trust in the Lord your God. Rely on Him for every breath that you take.

Same as Israel.: unbelief takes us out of the Sabbath, we start working at the solution again, we are reaching back to Egypt and not looking in faith to Jesus. God forbids any work on the Sabbath. The shadow Sabbath teaches us to rest in Christ. So now we do not work, we believe in stead. We sit and rest, we have faith. We do not use Egypt, we trust God to provide….He becomes our Father in Whom we trust and love. He is worthy of our faith and trust.He did it, He has done it all.Jesus said: “It is finished”
So what do we want to add to “finished”? Which law must we keep to perfect His “finished”? Only the law of love. Love one another and people will know that you belong to God. If you love you will not kill, rape, steal, covet, lust, but you will bring God and His salvation to people who hurt.

Strange how this sounds similar to Numbers: Hebrews 3:10Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

11So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.) 12Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

see..a heart of unbelief !
and

18And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief
Hebrews 4
1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Praise be to God, for once we enter into the Sabbath's rest, we are truely free.

God fulfilled his promise and revoked their privileges because they refused to obey.

as I said you have to know which contract is being discussed.

Deu 11:22 ¶ For if ye shall diligently keep all these commandments which I command you, to do them, to love the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, and to cleave unto him;


Deu 11:23 Then will the LORD drive out all these nations from before you, and ye shall possess greater nations and mightier than yourselves.


Deu 11:24 Every place whereon the soles of your feet shall tread shall be yours: from the wilderness and Lebanon, from the river, the river Euphrates, even unto the uttermost sea shall your coast be.


Deu 11:25 There shall no man be able to stand before you: [for] the LORD your God shall lay the fear of you and the dread of you upon all the land that ye shall tread upon, as he hath said unto you.


Deu 11:26 ¶ Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;


Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:


Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.


Deu 11:29 And it shall come to pass, when the LORD thy God hath brought thee in unto the land whither thou goest to possess it, that thou shalt put the blessing upon mount Gerizim, and the curse upon mount Ebal.


Deu 11:30 [Are] they not on the other side Jordan, by the way where the sun goeth down, in the land of the Canaanites, which dwell in the champaign over against Gilgal, beside the plains of Moreh?


Deu 11:31 For ye shall pass over Jordan to go in to possess the land which the LORD your God giveth you, and ye shall possess it, and dwell therein.


Deu 11:32 And ye shall observe to do all the statutes and judgments which I set before you this day.

To access the promises one must pay the piper so to speak

I want blessings described in Torah, then the cost is obedience to do what I know G-d has said is good and right and what the Lord requires of me.

However I do not do so for the physcal blessing but for the spiritual blessing of being pleasing to my heavenly Father. Torah is a joy for me to observe and not a chore. I receive far more blessing from just doing what I can of Torah that I can't imagine anyone thinking the Torah a burden. I know this is a foreign idea to most Christian. It is like when the pastor at the Sunday keeping congregation tells me... there is no more prophesy, there are no more healers and G-d no longers uses the gift of tongues... those were for a time that is past. That is like a foreign Idea to me. It is called dispensationalism. Rather than believe G-d has removed his hand of protection and stopped speaking to the "church" because of gross sin, they would rather just believe G-d doesn't do these things anymore.

Well this little tongue speaking, prophesying healer, knows things a little different and I believe G-d when He tells me - go and search a thing out.

I do not think I am better than my Sunday pastor... for flesh and blood has not revealed it to me, but the Father which is in Heaven. To those whom much Knowledge is given, much is required. As a healer, man made medicine does not work for me, but only makes me worse. Kind of a training ground to get rid of that worship of doctors that was ingraned in me. Wish I'd had a mentor, but only the Father has been my mentor in training. Probably better that way since all the healing ministries I've seen are far from what G-d has called me to. That applies to good ones as well as bad ones.
I digress.

[ Hear, O Israel: The YHVH our God [is] one YHVH:

5 And thou shalt love the YHVH thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

:6 ¶ And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:

7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
:8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.

9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

10 ¶ And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not,
11 And houses full of all good [things], which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;
12 [Then] beware lest thou forget the LORD, which brought thee forth out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
6:13 Thou shalt fear the LORD thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name.
:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which [are] round about you;
:15 (For the LORD thy God [is] a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.
16 ¶ Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted [him] in Massah.
17 Ye shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he hath commanded thee.


Pro 7:2 Keep my commandments, and live; and my law as the apple of thine eye.

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Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

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Dan 9:4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;

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Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the comman[/b]

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Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kdments.

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Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

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Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

[quote name='gr82bsaved' date='Nov 21 2006, 08:30 AM' post='92695']
Hi Banana,

Fervent wrote that covenants can not be broken, but they can be replaced by something better. He is entirely correct! The Apostle Paul wrote about the 'New Covenant' that JESUS CHRIST, our LORD, SAVIOR and GOD, the very manifestation of the FATHER and the WORD made flesh, bought for us through HIS sacrificial death upon the cross and resurrection to glory:

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also [b]he is the mediator of a better covenant[/b], [b]which was established upon better promises[/b].
Heb 8:7 [b]For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second[/b].
Heb 8:8 [b]For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah[/b]:
Heb 8:9 [b]Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant[/b], and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 [b]For this is [u]the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts:[/u] and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people[/b]:
Heb 8:11 [b][i]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord[/i]: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest [/b] .
Heb 8:12 [b][i]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more[/i][/b].
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, [u][i][u]A new covenant[/u][/i][/u], [b][u][i]he hath made the first old[/i][/u][/b]. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Heb 12:24 And to [b][u]Jesus the mediator of the new covenant[/u][/b], and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Paul clearly shows us here that JESUS brought a NEW COVENANT. The New Covenant of CHRIST provides for forgiveness of sins, the imputation of JESUS' righteousness through faith in CHRIST alone (not by following laws to justify oneself - justification comes only through faith in JESUS CHRIST, which clearly you know as you have stated earlier that JESUS is the LORD and our SAVIOR). We are justified by faith in JESUS CHRIST, not by external actions. When combined - trusting CHRIST that we are saved through faith in HIM - with the ministry of the HOLY SPIRIT having written GOD's law in our hearts - the true picture of eternal life in CHRIST is revealed through the daily life of the believer walking in the SPIRIT (Romans 8:1-16):

Ro 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Ro 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
(Please see Romans 8:5 -16 as well about walking in the SPIRIT).

If you don't tell people that JESUS can only be called a certain name (there are some many spellings of Yeshua - see? There is one now!), that the FATHER can only be called by a certain name, and that they need to follow certain traditions or laws - whichever ones you think are the appropriate ones for gentiles to follow - then we will most likely not have a problem. Lots of legalists come to the forum and tell us what we should be doing, which festivals we should be observing, what foods we ought to eat or not eat, which spellings and names to use, etc. They seek their way into heaven, hoping to please GOD through their own actions, justifying themselves through their own actions and claiming it is for HIS glory when really it is for their own.

Please don't be like that, because it is not the SPIRIT of CHRIST that does that - it is the vain, puffed up fleshly mind that does those things.

Blessings to you through the law of liberty that is manifested in the believer's daily spiritual walk with JESUS CHRIST THE LORD!
[/quote]


#####################################################################

Jer 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

This “new covenant” is promised to Israel and Judah alone. Yehoshuah came to save all man kind but was only sent to teach the house of Israel and Judah. That does not mean that the gentiles were ignored but rather that the order God chose was to the Jew first and then also to the Greek.
“Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

God chose to work through Israel and the covenant cannot be revoked.

Jer 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

The whole book of Hosea is portrayal of this statement and foundational reading. God took Hosea and asked him to marry a harlot and God used the happenings of his life as a Midrash (allegory) to show how he loves Israel and will redeem her back after playing the harlot and being enslaved and abused.


Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

While we have a spiritual foretaste of this as a part of spiritual Israel it is still not happened because Israel still breaks covenant and so do we.

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.


Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name:


[b]Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. [/b]


This is basically impossibility. If the Torah departs, then no Messiah can come. Ecclesiastes says, “What ever the Lord does lasts forever, it cannot be added to and it cannot be taken away from. God has made it so in order that men should fear before HIM.” 3:14


Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Again the impossibility of God failing to do this for ISRAEL and through Israel.

Hbr 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first [covenant]* had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Again the Jewish concept of Covenant is “irrevocable” like the law of the Medes and Persians – you can make a covering that essential nullifies the former decree but you cannot revoke it. Ester for instance cannot take back the law that the everyone should kill the Jews, but the day before all the Jews are given power over all their enemies, so that none remained to destroy them on the day of destruction set by Hamon.
The new covenant in the day of Judgement will take effect by the payment of Yehoshuah on the starious for us. Therefore when our blood is required, the life of Christ in us has died and we are reserected unto life through his reserection.

A covenant cannot change nor be “replaced”. Hebrews says the covenant was waxing old (disintegrating). The picture of Hosea and his wife and marriage covenant should come to mind. The broken part was not God or His Torah which are eternal and perfect, but rather us and our disobedience to Torah (which means instruction for living)? The newness is “the Torah close to our heart.” (Hebrews 10:19-20)(Torah reestablished) Hebrews say “For finding fault with them”, (Israel) in 8:8 and again “they continued not in my covenant” in 8:9. Therefore the New is better in the sense that our debt (death for breaking Torah) is paid and we keep Torah for love of God and not in fear of punishment for eternity? In the new covenant we hear and obey. However, many weeds have grown up in the ekklesia and choked the Torah out of both Israel and Yehuda.

(I know I made a real leap of faith from “they” to “we”, but in Christ there is neither Jew and nor Gentile only Ecclesia (called out ones) and according to the Hebrew scripture there is one law for both Jew and gentile.)

Yehoshuah (Jesus) taught:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

We can now deal with passages that cause confusion about the new covenant.

2Cr 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some [others]*, epistles of commendation to you, or [letters]* of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 [Forasmuch as ye are]* manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency [is]* of God;
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament****; not of the letter**, but of the spirit: for the letter** killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration*** of death, written** [and]* engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory]* was to be done away:

* brackets note words added not in the Greek TR.
**grama: 1) a letter 2) any writing, a document or record
a) a note of hand, bill, bond, account, written acknowledgement of a debt
a letter, an epistle c) the sacred writings (of the OT) 3) letters, i.e. learning a) of sacred learning

***diakonia: service, ministering, esp. of those who execute the commands of others
****diatheke –1)a disposition, arrangement, of any sort, which one wishes to be valid, the last disposition which one makes of his earthly possessions after his death, a testament or will
2) A compact, a covenant, a testament a) God's covenant with Noah, etc]

We are ministers of the New Covenant and living epistles, if we keep Torah and teach others to do the same. Paul’s comparison of these people as living Scriptures - to the new covenant (where all will live Torah) often is used to prove that we are “in the new covenant” when yet we know that each of still has to tell our neighbor to “know the Lord” and “keep his commands”. However that presupposes that Israel has been replaced and God’s covenant been replaced, and many even think the need to keep Torah has been done away with. I think I have shown that this is not what the readers would have heard from this letter.

Paul is alluding to - not defining the new Covenant, to show how close these people are to his heart that the people are being written on Paul’s heart (3:3) and the people being living epistles (living torah 3:2)
The above quote is from the KJV Blue Letter Bible located on line
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/2Cr/2Cr003.html#top

For the spirit of the torah gives life, just as Yehoshuah lived in the spirit of the Torah and was/is/is coming to be the Living Torah, these Jew and gentile ecclesia were imitators of HIM as He followed Torah. The Ministers of the Penalty had slain the Lamb of God in our place, bringing death of Yehoshuah for our lawlessness. For our God does demand justice, but did provide a substitute for our penalty having paid the price in full (fulfilled the requirement of the Torah which demanded our destruction for being Torah breakers).

Obedience through faith brings us near to God. (Hebrews 11) There is no real change in the way God deals with us individually since Adam and Eve. We should be living epistles of the Torah even as the Jew and gentile Corinthians became Living Torah.

Now that God has fulfilled both his Promise and His Justice for our lawlessness, shall we then be lawless all the more now so that God’s grace may abound? God forbid! Our freedom is not a license to forget and refuse to keep Torah. But like little children we learn in due time to do what is right according to God’s word.

The promise to the people of Yehovah –Israel must become an essential part of our being rather than broken by us.

Some also teach that Yehoshuah instituted the new covenant in his blood.

As noted before,, Testament and covenant come from the Greek word diatheke in the new testament.

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. :20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament**** in my blood, which is shed for you.

This verse also is sometimes translated covenant instead of testament. While being correct either way the context must define the intended usage of the word diatheke, within the context of “do this in remembrance of me”, we can see that it is a memorial statement (a last will and testament). There is no reference here to the “new Covenant” replacing the “old”. There is no contract described. The Kadush(cup of sanctification) is becoming the kaddish (prayer for the dead, a blessing said for the dead in remembereance at prescribed times like the anniversary of the death) The Passover feast is a salvation memorial. Passover is memorial of deliverance from the bondage to the Promised Land. Likewise it became to us also a memorial of His life given for our sin (which is transgression of Torah covenant.) Not just for Passover, but Every Jew would then at every meal bless the wine and the bread as they had done for thousands of years and remember he sustains us and covers our sins. Yehoshuah was giving his last will and testament to us

Hbr 9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament**** [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Payment and restoration has been made and we know that we will receive in due time the inheritance of the kingdom, but the spiritual kingdom is not yet here except in our hearts.

Deuteronomy 30:11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?

God never created a covenant that could not be kept right now in our fallen bodies. God never created a covenant that could not be kept right now in our fallen bodies. He never inteded the death of his precious son to give us liscence for each man to decide in his own heart what is right and what the Lord requires of us. His very words, living and active sharper than a two edged sword He has preserved for us and He teaches us by His spirit the things that are hidden from the world.

blessings
bananna

Banana,
First, you aske a question about the codes not working. We disabled the codes in this forum due to its controversial nature, which tends to lead to very controversial and sometimes disturbing sites.

Second, you said at the end of your reply to me:

"God never created a covenant that could not be kept right now in our fallen bodies. God never created a covenant that could not be kept right now in our fallen bodies. He never inteded the death of his precious son to give us liscence for each man to decide in his own heart what is right and what the Lord requires of us. His very words, living and active sharper than a two edged sword He has preserved for us and He teaches us by His spirit the things that are hidden from the world."

Please read this and let me know what the HOLY SPIRIT says to you about it:

Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?
Ga 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain-if indeed it was in vain?
Ga 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Ga 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Ga 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
Ga 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Ga 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Ga 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
Ga 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
Ga 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Ga 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Ga 3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Ga 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Ga 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


Please consider that if you are truly believing that CHRIST has saved you, then you are freed from the Law which can not justify you. Why did the Law exist? Gal 3:23 says "...before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed." Faith in JESUS CHRIST was what was to be revealed. and has been. Only faith in JESUS CHRIST justifies the sinner. And being a believer in CHRIST means that you are an offspring of Abraham, and inherited the promise, even though you are not Jewish.

Blessings in the name of JESUS CHRIST

[quote name='Bananna' date='Nov 20 2006, 06:53 PM' post='92644']
So all I ask is that people respect where I am at spiritually and give me the same grace to follow all of Torah which I am able to, with the same grace and encouragement I give others to follow the speed limit or any other ordinance in place for our protection.Blessings bananna[/quote]

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

That is ok because all Israel is under the CURSE OF THE LAW to this day. What is not ok is to preach it to Christians. Gentiles have never been under the law. I am not a Jew, therefore I am a Gentile. The church was formed after Christ ascended and led captivity captive. Grace is our only point of contact with God. True, the old covenant is also still in effect. It is all the Jews have to this day. But it will be hard for them in days ahead because of the need to transition to grace through the tribulation hour.

Paul is our guide in all of these things. Gal 3 is a consuming word on the law...

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from THE CURSE OF THE LAW, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

I don't intend to bash you or to trivialize your stand for you are not alone in that stand. Misery loves company I hear it said....But Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

By faith and that not of my own deeds, not by works lest I should boast


Ga 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

No, I just don't want to go around murdering people, or committing adultery or eating pork. It is not who I am.


Ga 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain-if indeed it was in vain?
Ga 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?


Poor translation. Faith is is an action. You hear and by faith obey. Hebrews 11. We see Avraham hear and obey even to the point of sacrificing his son and G-d provided a substitute. Any Prophet here knows that when G-d speaks it is not healthy to refuse to obey. Hopefully most here love G-d like little children and love to Shema - hear as to obey. Chastisement helped to discipline me, but Torah enables me ride the Wind.


Ga 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Ga 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
Ga 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."

My hope is in Messiah. Covenant definition of Faith
Faith without works is dead faith
Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. [/b]


Ga 3:9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."
Ga 3:11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."[

Luk 6:46 ¶ And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

Psa 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
Psa 119:12 Blessed [art] thou, O LORD: teach me thy statutes.
Psa 119:13 With my lips have I declared all the judgments of thy mouth.
Psa 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of thy testimonies, as [much as] in all riches.


Ga 3:12 Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them [b]shall live [/b] by them."

"that the Just-one out of-belief shall be-living the yet custom not is out of-belief but the one-doing them shall-be-livig in them(the customs) shall be-living in them christ us out of the curse of the custom becoming over us

This is called imputing beliefs upon scripture while translating.
It says the "just one out of belief shall be living the custom"
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Have to catch ya later and finish when I'm actually awake
bananna
Ga 3:13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"),
Ga 3:14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
Ga 3:18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Ga 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
Ga 3:20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law.
Ga 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
Ga 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
Ga 3:24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Ga 3:25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Ga 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ga 3:29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
[/quote]

Hi Banana,
"Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? "
By faith and that not of my own deeds, not by works lest I should boast
"Ga 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? "
No, I just don't want to go around murdering people, or committing adultery or eating pork. It is not who I am.

You are right to say that you don't want to go around murdering people, committing adultery, etc. The pork thing is your own choice. But are you not doing those things because YOU in the flesh are not doing them, or because you are obeying the HOLY SPIRIT - walking in the SPIRIT?

So it looks like we agree to the following:

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Ro 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Ro 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Good! There is no problem. You wrote that you are Shema - hear as to obey. YES YES YES! That is faith in action! That is it entirely! You got it! That is what faith in JESUS CHRIST is all about. So you are hearing the HOLY SPIRIT and obeying HIM, right?

That is the problem with the legalists. They claim that those who do not observe the Torah the way they do (specific parts of it) are not truly saved and that the rest are 'lawless'. They claim that if we do not use the 'proper' Hebrew name for JESUS or GOD THE FATHER then our prayers are not being heard by GOD. The legalist movement is a vain, fleshly minded movement designed by satan to mislead, confuse and turn away the believer from the grace that we are under in JESUS CHRIST and back to the guilt that the Law brings. You can see that in Gal 3, verses 2 and 3:

Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

I love the verses that Paul wrote in Rom 3:28-31:

Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Ro 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Ro 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We establish the law through faith! WOW! Not by what I do and what days I observe and what foods I eat but by faith, hearing and obeying the HOLY SPIRIT, walking in the SPIRIT. Why did the Law exist then? Gal 3:23 says "...before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed." Faith in JESUS CHRIST was what was to be revealed, the promise that was made to Abraham and his Seed, that is JESUS CHRIST.

So are we lawless and therefore sinners? Believers in JESUS CHRIST are dead to sin - we died with HIM and are reborn because of faith in HIM (John 3:3, John 3:7, 1 Peter 1:23).

Believers in CHRIST are under grace. That does not mean we can do whatever we want, but instead we are to walk in the SPIRIT and worship GOD in the SPIRIT. We live in the ministry of the law of the SPIRIT (Rom 8:2-5):

Ro 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Ro 7:25 I thank God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ro 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,
Ro 8:4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Ro 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

That is where we all should live - according to the things of the SPIRIT, the Shema you worte of earlier.

So how far apart are we? It all depends. I say the things you are doing are not necessary because you seek to be put under the law again and not remain under grace. I will warn you that teaching that here will not be tolerated. If you want to do that, start your own forum or find one that is filled with those that agree with your walk. That is between you and GOD. But there is a tipping point that pulls people back in into the law as Paul wrote:

Ga 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

The flesh is INCAPABLE of justifying the believer (Rom 8:2-5). It is the fact that sin is condemned in the flesh through JESUS CHRIST, and so we need to fulfill the righteous requirement not by the works of the flesh, but by obeying and living according the the things of the SPIRIT. Do you believe that the HOLY SPIRIT is at work within you, and that you are walking after the things of the SPIRIT?

I hope and pray that you do.

Blessings to you in JESUS CHRIST

[quote name='Bananna' date='Nov 22 2006, 02:48 AM' post='92868']
Poor translation. Faith is is an action. You hear and by faith obey.[/quote]

Poor translation...faith has substance and evidence. (Heb 11:1) Faith is not an action, it is a demonstration of belief. That requires something of the believer. Obedience is incumbent upon belief, or one is nothing more than a trembling devil. For they believe there is one God also.

Cornelius...God didn't break the covenant. It was already broken. You can't break something that's already broken. That's why the new covenant was a one sided deal. God won't break it.

You said: "As far as God not breaking a covenant. Its not totally true you know. God has in fact broken covenant, because of Israels unbelief."

[quote name='Miki' date='Nov 22 2006, 07:25 AM' post='92885']
Cornelius...God didn't break the covenant. It was already broken. You can't break something that's already broken. That's why the new covenant was a one sided deal. God won't break it.

You said: "As far as God not breaking a covenant. Its not totally true you know. God has in fact broken covenant, because of Israels unbelief."
[/quote]
Zec 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, [even] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zec 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [was] the word of the LORD.
This word appears to say that God took His staff (Beauty) Capitol "B" being Jesus and cut it asunder (crucified Him) so He could break the old covenant and start the new one.

Good scripture Fervent.

Miki, you are also right, God only broke covenant in cases of unbelief. The point is really that God cannot be left standing to uphold a covenant with people who are not interested, they turned their backs on Him through unbelief.
But secondly, the New is not one sided, it also depends on faith.Its conditional to faith, fruit and overcoming. You know the scriptures that I quoted in the Rapture, marriage thread.

C

[quote name='fervent' date='Nov 22 2006, 11:24 AM' post='92910']
[quote name='Miki' date='Nov 22 2006, 07:25 AM' post='92885']
Cornelius...God didn't break the covenant. It was already broken. You can't break something that's already broken. That's why the new covenant was a one sided deal. God won't break it.

You said: "As far as God not breaking a covenant. Its not totally true you know. God has in fact broken covenant, because of Israels unbelief."
[/quote]
Zec 11:9 Then said I, I will not feed you: that that dieth, let it die; and that that is to be cut off, let it be cut off; and let the rest eat every one the flesh of another.
Zec 11:10 And I took my staff, [even] Beauty, and cut it asunder, that I might break my covenant which I had made with all the people.
Zec 11:11 And it was broken in that day: and so the poor of the flock that waited upon me knew that it [was] the word of the LORD.
This word appears to say that God took His staff (Beauty) Capitol "B" being Jesus and cut it asunder (crucified Him) so He could break the old covenant and start the new one.
[/quote]
Greetings,
small passages do not a whole picture paint.
Israel broke covenant with God first condemning them all to death. G-d did not uterly destroy them, but took the payment of Christ on the cross in their stead.

The passage shows G-d justiic the word is Lefir to annul. Through out the prophets the same is referred to the marriage of G-d with Israel. They broke the wedding agreement and therefore his is no longer obligated to the ocntract because of their unfaithfulness. However as would be the custom, if both parties agree to return to faithfulness the contract is restored. The Lord over and over calls them to return and be faithful and He will again protect and prossper them.

It is very important to know What God promises he will do. God promised to bless them if they obeyed and cursed them (bring them low) if they disobeyed his commands.

Shalom for now,
Have a blessed Thanks Giving Gathering.
Don't forget to pray and give thanks after you have been filled and are satisfied.
bananna

This is to add to your scripture Fervent:
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


Actually God did not send Jesus just to the Jews, (to pay for their broken covenant,) but to all people on the earth
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,Romans 9:25

and here Hosea talks of the Gentiles, after Israel turned away from Him:
Romans 9:25
As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"

[quote name='Cornelius' date='Nov 22 2006, 01:28 PM' post='92943']
This is to add to your scripture Fervent:
Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.


Actually God did not send Jesus just to the Jews, (to pay for their broken covenant,) but to all people on the earth
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,Romans 9:25

and here Hosea talks of the Gentiles, after Israel turned away from Him:
Romans 9:25
As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"
[/quote]
I was scratching for that scripture also. This poster is convinced of the law and of his ability to obey it. I suppose no amount of scripturally based incentive to go for the better covenant will stir him. I am glad of my slavation based upon faith and not works.

Angain
Covenant theology says that each covenant has its own rules. Some are as simple as David and Johnathan and no cutting of the animals no blood is spilt. If it were broken there would not have been any penalty.

The covenant with Israel and all that came out of Egypt and all that stood with her and all nations that did not were given the list of precepts to live by in torah that stated If you obey you will be blessed and God will not lieave you. If you do not obey then God will curse them.


The New covenant was given to Israel. It was given to israel before Yehoshuah ever came onto the seen. The new covenant was paid in full.

All these covenants stand because -God has made it so. Nothing can be added to it and nothing can be taken from it. God has made it so in order that men should fear before him.
bananna

"The doctrine of the Covenant lies at the root of all true theology. It has been said that he who well understands the distinction between the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace is a master of divinity. I am persuaded that most of the mistakes which men make concerning the doctrines of Scriptures are based upon fundamental errors with regard to the covenants of law and the covenants of grace. May God grant us now the power to instruct and you the grace to receive instruction on this vital subject.” - C.H. Spurgeon

Rom 9
30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

"Covenant Theology"........................

Covenant Theology and the Law

Dr. Renald Showers defines covanant theology "as a system… which attempts to develop the Bible's philosophy of history on the basis of two or three covenants. It represents the whole of Scripture and history as being covered by two or three covenants." Dr. Ryrie says:

Formal definitions of covenant theology are not easy to find even in the writings of covenant theologians. Most of the statements that pass for definitions are in fact descriptions or characterizations of the system. The article in Bakers Dictionary of Theology comes close to a definition when it says that covenant theology is distinguished by "the place it gives to the covenants" because it "represents the whole of Scripture as being covered by covenants: (1) the covenant of works, and (2) the covenant of grace." This is an accurate description of the covenant system. Covenant theology is a system of theology based on the two covenants of works and grace as governing categories for the understanding of the entire Bible.

In covenant theology the covenant of works is said to be an agreement between God and Adam promising life to Adam for perfect obedience and including death as the penalty for failure. But Adam sinned and thus mankind failed to meet the requirements of the covenant of works. Therefore, a second covenant, the covenant of grace, was brought into operation. Louis Berkhof defines it as "that gracious agreement between the offended God and the offending but elect sinner, in which God promises salvation through faith in Christ, and the sinner accepts this believingly, promising a life of faith and obedience."

Some Reformed theologians have introduced a third covenant, the covenant of redemption. It was made in eternity past and became the basis for the covenant of grace, just described, between God and the elect. This covenant of redemption is supposed to be "the agreement between the Father, giving the Son as Head and Redeemer of the elect, and the Son, voluntarily taking the place of those whom the Father had given him." These two or three covenants become the core and bases of operation for covenant theology in its interpretation of the Scriptures.

Without trying to explain all the details of covenant theology I will simply say that it has many problems:

It begins by assuming two (or three) covenants that are never mentioned in Scripture.
It tries to unify scripture by saying that Biblical distinctions are merely different phases of the same Covenant of Grace. For example, Berkoff insists that the Mosaic Covenant is essentially the same as the Abrahamic Covenant. Yet, the apostle Paul asserts the distinctiveness of these two covenants in Galatians 3:18. Even a cursory reading of these two covenants reveals that the Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional whereas the Mosaic Covenant had many conditions attached.
It denies the distinctiveness of the gospel of grace and the gospel of the kingdom.
It denies the distinction between Israel and the Church.
It uses a double standard with regard to interpretation of Scripture. Covenant theologians use the historical-grammatical method of interpretation, except for passages concerning future events. When dealing with passages regarding the future of Israel or the kingdom of God they revert to Augustine's allegorical or spiritualizing method of interpretation.

It places the believer under the law.
This last point, in my opinion, is probably the most devastating blow against Christian doctrine and practice.

The Galatian error of law and works has plagued the church from its very beginning. Covenant theology has only served to promote this error.

http://www.4himnet.com/bnyberg/dispensationalism01.html

Banana said:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings,
small passages do not a whole picture paint.
Israel broke covenant with God first condemning them all to death. G-d did not uterly destroy them, but took the payment of Christ on the cross in their stead.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I liked this...A different way to see mercy operating even in the midst of a covenant broken by men.

Banana...You might be interested in this article.

GOD'S FAITHFULNESS: ISRAEL AND THE NEW COVENANT

By Ray C. Stedman


All Christians rest upon the faithfulness of God. Our unchangeable God who never falters, never fails in His promise is the very foundation of our faith and the ground of our security. That is what gives stability and strength to our faith; we can count on it. We have the same God that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had, that David prayed to and wrote his Psalms in praise of -- all this constitutes for us the bedrock of security that we rest upon it in every single day.

But I want to explore with you now a somewhat different aspect of the faithfulness of God. I find a very strange phenomenon growing among Christians across the country and around the world today. Many are saying, "We can believe in the faithfulness of God for ourselves, but we doubt it when it comes to the nation of Israel." Many people raise the question, "What part does that strange people called in the Scriptures itself 'God's chosen people', play in the future?" Many have written the nation off as not having a part in the program of God.

Let's look at what God has said about his promises to that strange people. We wonder what God has in mind as we read the newspapers and see still centered in the headlines of the world this strange nation. And what is more remarkable, we know that many Jews are unbelievers in their own Scriptures. It's a very astonishing thing that they still exist as a nation after all the centuries of dispersion and wanderings. Many are asking the question, "Where do the Jews fit into the program of God?"

I want to begin by going back to the very center of our own Christian faith, the one ritual that all Christians agree is central -- the supper of the Lord. Periodically we gather together to celebrate the Lord's supper, to do together what he told us to do on that unforgettable night when he was betrayed. Let me refer to Matthew's familiar account (Matthew 25:26-29):

...Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And then he took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sin. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I will drink it new with you in my father's kingdom." {cf, Matthew 26:25b-29}

Notice carefully the words that Jesus uses to introduce this event as he passes the cup among these disciples. He says, "this is my blood of the New Covenant." Now that's a clear reference back to the words of Jeremiah found in the 31st chapter of his prophecy. Jeremiah says, beginning in Verse 31 of Chapter 31, these words:

"The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt [i.e., the covenant of the Law, the Ten Commandments], because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord.

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." {Jeremiah 31:31-34 NIV}

Now that was what was taking place on the night our Lord was betrayed. He was making a New Covenant with the house of Israel; every one of those disciples that were there were faithful Jews. (Judas had all ready left the apostolic band to go to do his dirty work of betrayal.) The eleven disciples that were remaining were Israelites from various groups and various parts of the land of Israel. They were representatives of the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Our Lord borrows here the very words which Moses had used when he announced the covenant of the Law when he came down from Mount Sinai. You remember Moses sprinkled the people with blood from animals and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words," (Exodus 24:8 {RSV}). It is not a mere accident that when Jesus, too, says, "this is my blood of the New Covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Return to Jeremiah 31, the prophet goes on to say these words (Verse 35):

This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that the waves roar -- the Lord Almighty is his name: "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the Lord says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the Lord. {Jeremiah 31:35-37 NIV}

Do these ordinances still exist today? Is the sun still shining in the sky? Do the moon and the stars still appear at night? Isn't it remarkable that with all the achievements of science, and with all the explorations of space, the sending out of these space travelers out to explore the planetary system and even beyond, yet we still have not learned how to measure the universe in which we live. The prophet says, "Only if heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath..." We have done neither of those. We have found theories, but no one has been able to explore in this area. Therefore, God says,

"If heaven can be measured, and the and foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done," says the Lord. {cf, Jeremiah 31:37 KJV}

Now, that's a most remarkable promise. God has bound himself, by the faithfulness of his Being and of his Word, that Israel shall have a place in his program as long as the heavens and the earth remain. God will never cast them off as long as the sun and the moon maintain themselves in their courses and as long as long as the scope of the heavens remains to be measured and the interior of the earth remains unexplored.

Well, if that is the case, if this is the covenant which Jesus made with Israel, as the Lord's supper clearly indicates, we must ask ourselves the question: "Why is it that Israel lies in spiritual shambles today, while Gentile Christians, with whom this covenant was never made, are now enjoying the fulfillment of the New Covenant?"

Many people wonder about this in regard to the Jews, and a number of explanations have been suggested. Most of you know that over in the 8th chapter of Hebrews, the writer quotes verbatim, word for word, this promise of God in Jeremiah 31. He makes clear that New Covenant, referred to there, applies to the church. The New Covenant was a covenant made with Israel, but it is being fulfilled today by believers from all the nations. The writer of Hebrews repeats the fact that that covenant was made with the house of Israel and Judah (that is, the whole literal nation of the Jews ) but he applies three essential elements of this covenant to us today.

It is very helpful for us to understand that these terms and conditions of the New Covenant are faithfully carried out whenever anybody turns to Christ. Listen to the provisions of the New Covenant again, as the prophet Jeremiah had announced, but which are quoted in Hebrews 8:10:

"I will put my law into their minds, and write them on their hearts." {Heb 8:10b NIV}

Here is the first provision of the New Covenant: There will be a new awareness rising within us so that we know inwardly how to tell right from wrong.

I want you to think back to when you first came to Christ: You will discover that there came into your knowledge, your existence, your experience, a different feeling about right and wrong. Before you became a Christian, right and wrong were spelled out to you in terms of what you had been taught as you were growing up. Whether these standards were related to the Ten commandments or not, there was something external to yourself that constituted a set of standards imposed upon you from without. But, when you became a Christian, you suddenly became more sensitive in this area. That's the New Covenant being fulfilled in our lives. The second element of the New Covenant is that God has said,

"I will be their God, and they will be my people. No onger will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." {Heb 8:10c-11 NIV}

Once again, if you think back to your first days as a believer in Jesus, you became aware that you had become a member of a new family and that God occupied a different relationship in your life. He was no longer a stern judge, condemning you every time you turned around, but he was now a loving Father. A new word came to your lips -- you began to call him Father. You sensed a new intimacy with God.

I'll never forget when I first became a Christian, I was only ten years old, and received the Lord in a Methodist camp meeting. The summer that followed that was an unforgettable summer to me because I had a constant consciousness of God in my life. I used to sing some of the hymns to myself over, and they would cause me break into tears because I was so conscious of the nearness of God. That's what the New Covenant does for us, the provision that God has made for everyone.

You begin also to discover when you meet other Christians that they feel the same way as you. They too know God, you didn't have to tell them. They also know him as their Father. They understand that same relationship you have been brought into. That's the greatness of the New Covenant. And then there is third element in the New Covenant, one that is most important, given by these words:

"For I will forgive their wickedness and I will remember their sins no more." {Heb 8:12 NIV}

Do you remember the lifting of the load of guilt in your life when you first came to Christ? I'll never forget this in my own life. To me it was a wonderful thing to realize that all the mistakes and the ugliness of my past life, all the things I had done wrong, all the shameful episodes I would like to have forgotten were forgiven. I now had perfect access to my Father in heaven, there was now nothing between us -- He had taken care of it all by the blood of Jesus. Nothing in all of life meant more to me then, and does today, than that reality.

Most Christians, I think, fail to see that forgiveness is something we need every day. Even as Christians we go on sinning and making mistakes. Every day we need the cleansing of the blood of Jesus. Every day we need to admit to him that there are things that were wrong yesterday, or this morning; and claim again that wonderful promise, "I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more."

Now, that's the New Covenant, wonderfully applied to us today, to us who are not Jews, who don't belong to the house of Israel.

There are some, of course, among us who are Jews -- all come into the church, whether Jew and Gentile, on the same basis. Now this is why some people have greatly misunderstood the promises to the Jews. They say that the church has replaced Israel. They say that we, the church, have taken over all the promises that were given to Israel. They claim that all these promises are now spiritually fulfilled in us, and, therefore, Israel no longer has a place in God's program and plan. Now, this teaching is pressed to the point sometimes where the church is often called the new Israel or spiritual Israel, titles that are never found in Scripture.

The idea is set forth that it was God's intent to reach us Gentiles, that this was the final goal. When the Gentiles became believers in God, all the promises of God were fulfilled and Israel would no longer have a place in God's plan. But, if you think that's true, then you've forgotten what Jeremiah has said regarding Israel and God's ordinances concerning the sun and the moon, and the inability of man to measure the heavens or to plumb the depths of the earth. When you got up this morning the sun rose, or, if you rose a little later, you could count on the sun having risen. As Jeremiah has reminded us, as long as those ordinances maintain in themselves in the earth, God has pledged that he will never cast off his people Israel but they have a place in his kingdom.

When you come to the book of Romans in the New Testament you discover that the Apostle Paul explains the apparent mystery. We learn that Israel has been temporarily set aside because of their unbelief. In Romans, Chapters 9, 10, and 11, the Apostle Paul deals at length with this problem: "Where does Israel fit in the program of God?" In these three remarkable chapters the apostle carefully distinguishes between the church and Israel:

The church -- which includes believing Jews and Gentiles alike -- is called the body of Christ, which the nation Israel never is. Paul distinguishes between the church, and the nation of Israel -- which consists only of Jews, and mostly unbelieving Jews, who do not even give credence to their own Scriptures.

In Chapter 9 the apostle describes for us some of these differences. Twenty-five years after the church was born, after it came into existence on the Day of Pentecost as you have recorded in the opening chapters of Acts, the apostle admits that the unbelieving nation of Israel still has certain advantages which they cannot lose. He lists for us these advantages and distinctives in these opening words of Chapter 9:

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit [See how he undergirds with the authority of God what he's about to say.], that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites [See, clearly Jews], and to whom [pertains or] belongs the adoption as sons of God, the glory [the Shekinah glory that filled the temple and the tabernacle], the covenants [those made with Abraham and with David, with Isaac and Jacob and with others throughout the Old Testament, the covenants including the New Covenant], the giving of the Law [the Ten Commandments brought down from the mountain top, not by Charleton Heston, but by Moses himself], the temple service [that is, the tabernacle, the temple and its rituals of sacrifices and offerings], and the promises [of God, all belong to Israel -- and he goes on], whose are the fathers [the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob], and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh [the Messiah], who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. {Rom 9:1-5 NASB}

Now that's a great statement. And in it the apostle is telling us what belongs to Israel by the faithfulness of God, and can never be set aside. Now, in Chapter 11, Verses 15 and 16, he says something very interesting. Israel, he acknowledges at this point, had been set aside from its favored position before God. And God had turned to the Gentile world and had begun to take in pagans, unbelievers, idol worshippers, Gentiles who had no knowledge of all the great things that God had taught Israel in the Old Testament. In Verse 16, the apostle says:

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy: {cf, Romans 11:16 KJV}

This is a reference to something the Jews would understand. The Jews have a ritual in which they take dough, a big pile of dough made up from the first grain that is harvested, the priest would take a handful of that dough and offer it before God in the tabernacle or the temple service. Paul's argument here is, if that offering, if that handful, was offered to God at the beginning as a holy offering, then the whole lump of dough would likewise be acceptable to God. Now the firstfruits of Israel were the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were the men whom God called to himself. He accepted them and gave them the gift of eternal life, because of their faith, and that constituted the offering of firstfruit. And Paul is simply saying: Now if that was true, if he could accept these patriarchs and make them holy, then he could do the same thing with the whole nation of Israel. But then the apostle changes his figure -- and this is very important -- in the latter part of the verse:

...and if the root is holy, so are the branches. {cf, Romans 11:16b KJV}

This time of the year is the bear root season and some of you may be planting roses and fruit trees, others of you will just be putting the bare root into the ground. Just before I came here from my home in Oregon, I planted some roses and I just took a bare root, with no growth on it at all, just a little bit of the stem sticking up, and I stuck it in the ground.

A root becomes a symbol of the source of life. The root that the apostle is referring to are those divine advantages that Jews possess, which he had described so clearly in Chapter 9 -- the Shekinah glory, the promises, the sacrifices in the temple, all that God had given to Israel -- that is the root he is referring to. He says that "if the root is holy then so are the branches." And he makes very clear the reality that God, therefore, can restore life to Israel because they still possess the root that God himself had given to them. Now in Verse 17, the apostle goes on, and says:

...if some of the branches were broken off, [that is, the unbelieving nation of Israel] and you [he's talking to Gentiles -- notice Verse 13, "for I speak to you Gentiles"], being a wild olive [tree], were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the rich root [and fatness] of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward [boast against] the branches [that is, Israel]; but if you are arrogant [do boast], remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. {Romans 11:17-18 NASB}

Here we learn how it is that we Gentiles got in on this New Covenant that actually belongs to Israel. You see, the root still belongs to Israel -- but we Gentiles enjoy it by faith. God opened the door of faith to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul and by the preaching of the other apostles. This is why the Lord Jesus said to the woman at the well of Samaria, "Salvation is of the Jews," (John 4:22b {KJV}).

If we Gentiles begin to feel superior and think that we have a favored position before God, if we suppose that Israel no longer has a place in God's program for the world, let us remember Paul's words here, "you do not support the root, but the root supports you." In this same chapter of Romans, in Verse 11, Paul asks the key question,

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? {Rom 11:11a KJV}

His answer is, "By no means!" {Rom 11:11b RSV}. Certainly not! God has an appointed time when he will fulfill the promises of the New Covenant to make Israel the head of the nations of the earth, and Jerusalem the center of the government of the earth. This is what he asks us to pray for when we pray the Lord's prayer,

"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (Matt 6:10 KJV)

This is why the disciples came to the Lord Jesus risen from the dead and they said to him, (as we are told in the opening verses of Acts),

"Will you at this time restore the kingdom unto Israel?" (Acts 1:6b RSV)

Now, Jesus did not rebuke them for asking that question. All he did was correct their question about the timing. They said, "Will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" This is after he'd been with them for 3 1/2 years and taught them much. But they still obviously expected that there would be a time coming when Israel would be restored as the head of the nations of the earth. The kingdom was to be the promises restored to Israel. But Jesus warned them, "Times are not for you to know," {cf, Acts 1:7}. Times are uncertain -- but events are not. In Romans 11, Verse 12 and following, the Apostle Paul tells us what will happen when Israel does experience the fulfillment of the New Covenant. Look at these words,

Now if their fall means riches for the world, {cf, Rom 11:12a KJV}

Did you ever realize that the greatest blessing any nation has ever had, in this whole age since the coming of our Lord, was the entrance of the gospel into that nation? The secular world does not want to recognize this. But you can prove this to yourself -- every nation where the gospel has been preached since the coming of the Lord, has been a nation where people have found freedom. Freedom always accompanies the teaching and the preaching of the Word of God. And wherever a nation has had the gospel once, found freedom, and then turned its back on God, that nation goes back into despair and into national oblivion. It loses its ability to function, to a large degree, as a nation. Totalitarian government and authoritarianism comes in and the people become virtual slaves.

Now, the greatest witness of this fact today is what has happened in the Soviet Union. Here is a people that 70 years ago turned its back on what it had known about the gospel, and threw out the moral absolutes of God, and tried instead to erect certain artificial absolutes supported only by intense government oppression. As a result the Russian people lost their freedom.

Turn away from God and you, too, will lose your freedom as an individual -- always. Freedom is the greatest riches that the world can know. Through the course of history today you can trace this out -- every nation that has received the gospel and given heed to the Wword of God has been a nation blessed by God, blessed with freedom -- its people are relatively free. That's what Paul means, if the fall of Israel meant that God turned to the Gentiles and brought riches to them, then (now listen to this):

...and their failures riches to the Gentiles, how much more their fulness! For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am an apostle of the Gentiles, {cf, Rom 11:12b-13a KJV}

He goes on to tell us that, when the nation Israel believes, the nations of the world will be brought into greater riches than resulted from the failure of Israel. In fact, it will be like from death unto life! Look at Verse 15,

For if their rejection be the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? {Rom 11:15 NASB}

Most of you know your Bibles well enough to know that God's appraisal of the peoples of the world today is that they are lost, they are all dead in trespasses and sins -- that deadness, that death that produces violence, and anger, and hatred, and terrorism, and warfare, and crime, and all the other destructive things we see today -- that death which blights all the nations will end only when Israel accepts their Messiah. Then, at that time, the promise of the New Covenant is fulfilled in their national life.

We know that will be the time when our Lord returns. As the prophet Zechariah and others tell us, Jesus will then personally assume the throne of his father David. And the twelve apostles will reign with Jesus -- as he specifically states back in Matthew 19:27. Let me read these words to you -- these are the words of Jesus himself,

Peter answered and said to him, "See, we have left all and followed you; therefore what shall we have?" [Now listen!] So Jesus said to them, "Assuredly I say to you, that in the regeneration, [that is, the restoration that is coming] when the Son of Man sits on the throne of his glory, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands for my name's sake, shall receive a hundred fold and inherit eternal life. {cf, Matt 19:27-29}

This is our Lord's own description of that coming kingdom which Revelation 20 tells us (six times over) will last for one thousand years, it is what we call the millennium.

To wind this up, the Apostle Paul confirms all these things in the eleventh chapter of Romans in these words in Verses 25-27. He says:

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written: "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will turn ungodliness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." {Romans 11:25-27 NIV}

What covenant? Why, the New Covenant. The New Covenant was made with the house of Israel and Judah on the night our Lord was betrayed, "This is the blood of the New Covenant which is made with many for the remission of sins." So, you see, that which began at the first coming will be fulfilled in its entirety at the second. All of us, all Christians, have to live in a sense with between the already and the not yet. Already the Kingdom of God has begun within us but its not yet fully manifest or fulfilled upon the earth -- we have to live waiting for that promise.

Just before he died Dr. Francis Schaeffer, one of the major prophets of our day, was asked what he believed about the promises of God to Israel, and this is his reply. He says,

"I believe that if God can revoke his promises to the nation Israel then I have no assurance of my own personal salvation. I believe that at the end of the present age the Lord will return and establish his kingdom for one thousand years and the purpose of the millennium will be to demonstrate conclusively that man's problem is himself, and not Satan. Evil is present during the millennium, even though Satan is bound because evil in man is a result of the fall unless there be a regenerated experience. When Satan is released he will find thousands who will immediately respond to his call to mount a final rebellion against God."

We have the very promise of God.

Do you know that the Apostle Peter tells us that someday the heavens will pass away with a great noise and the earth shall be melted with fervent heat {cf, 2 Pet 3:10}. Those ordinances of the sun and the moon and the stars and the heaven and the earth will end in that day, and then the creation of a new heaven and a new earth shall come into being, where evil will no longer be present in any form whatsoever, as Peter, Isaiah, and other of the prophets predicted. But before that time comes, God promises he will fulfill every word spoken to that strange nation there in the Middle East. So Israel does have a part in the promises of God -- and our very existence as a church borrows from, and rests upon, those promises made to Israel long ago! That's the faithfulness of God.

http://www.raystedman.org/misc/isrnewcov.html

Loved the article, Miki! Thanks for posting it.



Todd

Ashri (Blessed) one-flawless-of way the-ones-walking in-the-law-of YHVH
Ashri ones -preserving testimonies-of-Him in-all-of heart they-are-inquireing-of-Him
Aph(indeed) not they-contrive iniquity in-ways of HIM they go
athe(You) you-instructed precepts-of-you to-keep exceedingly
Achli (oh that) they-shall-be-established ways-of-me to-keep statutes-of-you
Audk(Iam acclaiming you) in-uprighteousness-of heart in-learning-me judgements-of righteous-of-you
ath-chqik(statutes of you) I-am-keeping must-not-be you-are-forsaking-me unto-excess

the Lord said..."I am the Aleph and the Tov"
Psalm 119 is based on the hebrew alephbet. John having written hin Hebrew would have the Aleph and tov changed to Alpha and omega.

The Porblem being with that is that in the translation it has lost its verse and chapter reference. Scriptures used to be referenced by subject headings, bible portion readings and Key phrases, before we had the present system of Book, chapter and verses.

Christ was the Torah made living and perfect.

Miki that was a really great article.
Spurgeons quote was really excellent also (can't remember who posted that)

So if we all understand we are not under the Law, why does my keeping it bother so many?

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.