I am intersted if anyone has any insights regarding Peter's Description of the Book of Revelation as a Light in a Dark Place .

'.....take heed as , as unto a light in a dark place[color=#000099] , until the day dawn ..'( 2 Peter v19)


along with the caveat :

' Knowing this first , that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation ...'(v20)

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He seems to be implying that Revelation is a survival guide for a time when the light of the sun is blocked out ( Matt 24 ) presumably by some catastrophe or by nuclear war .

He also says that there is a way of understanding Revelation that is not ' of any private interpretation '..
lit: a man can't struggle to understand it as he would struggle to unravel a knot , or to solve a Sudoku
puzzle .

The understanding is either Holy Spirit inspired , or a collective understanding of some sort , or , as Verse 21 hints , rooted in the Words of the Prophets of the Old Testament .

Can anyone cast more light on this ?

thanks .

Hey Simplebaby.....I will take the second one you requested....

It is the Holy Spirits inspiration of Scripture, it is not man's understanding....

If you back up to V16 it interupts v20 for you...."We did not follow cleverly invented stories when we told you about the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty."
V21 also answers this as well, "For prophecy never had it orgin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit...

The first one you asked about is my understanding the it means it is a sured thing. If you shine light in a dark place it is assured it will cast out all darkness and light up the place...In the same manner that the Word shines light on the dark places of our hearts it will most assuredly cast out the darkness that dwells in there...The more Jesus rises in your heart the less darkness remains there...

I could be wrong, so continue on your quest and seek the Lord as the verse states....

"He seems to be implying that Revelation is a survival guide for a time when the light of the sun is blocked out ( Matt 24 ) presumably by some catastrophe or by nuclear war"

>Revelation is certainly a witness to bottom line survival (salvation) and an evaluation of those who profess to have salvation. But the Lord's hour of trial prefaced in chapter 6 and recorded beginning in chapter 8 contains literal judgment events that will take place against an unbelieving world. The unbelieving world will actually rebel against the Lord's judgments and the only survival guide will be to turn and repent ... but most will not do this during His hour of trial.

"He also says that there is a way of understanding Revelation that is not ' of any private interpretation '..
lit: a man can't struggle to understand it as he would struggle to unravel a knot , or to solve a Sudoku
puzzle"

>I would suggest that "not of any private interpretation" means that Scripture is written in this fashion. The prophets were not just recording their own impressions or personal beliefs. Scripture is controlled and is a direct inspiration from the Lord. This is why we can rely upon it. A prophet does not write just anything he might think about things, but only records truth inspired by the Lord.

"The understanding is either Holy Spirit inspired , or a collective understanding of some sort , or , as Verse 21 hints , rooted in the Words of the Prophets of the Old Testament"

>Understanding or interpretation by the reader is a different thing and this activity does not and cannot change or alter the meaning of what is already recorded. But one can read and can change the intended meaning for themselves or others in a variety of ways. The Scriptures as written say what they say and our understanding must be directed by the Lord's Holy Spirit.

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply Pamela and Stephen .

Yes you are right Pamela . The Holy Spirit is the key to understanding Scripture . Peter is saying something very specific in these lines of his second epistle . He is witnessing to the Transfiguration ' (we) were eyewitnesses of his majesty..........in the holy mount ' , which he is holding up as a witness of the surity of Jesus Christ's Second Coming.

He then adds .........' We have a more sure word of prophecy .'

In John 21 , v 17-18 , Jesus tells Peter of how his life will end :

' This spake he , signifying by what death he should glorify God .'

Peter then expresses jealousy towards the Beloved Disciple John .
Jesus replies , verse 22 :

' If I will that he tarry till I come , what is that to thee '

Which the disciples mis-understand as meaning that John won't die , but by which Jesus means that he will visit John on Patmos and deliver Revelation to him .

I beleieve that the More Sure Word of Prophecy Peter speaks about is the book of Revelation . Why more sure ? Because it comes from the mouth of God , to Jesus , and then to the angel .

What else could be More Sure than the Transfiguration other than the book of Revelation .

Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.


Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


If the More sure Word is the book of Revelation , what does Peter then say about it :
It is ' as a light that shineth in a dark place ' , and that ' no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation . '

I believe that Peter may be giving us the key to understanding Revelation , as a book to be interpreted by the Old Testament maybe .

That is the question here , what exactly is he telling us about how to interpret Revelation .

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For instance , is it possible that the Key Of David given to the Church of Philadelphia is the key to understanding the book of Revelation . And does understanding Revelation provide the understanding of how to be kept from the hour of temptation ?

simplebaby,

"If the More sure Word is the book of Revelation , what does Peter then say about it :
It is ' as a light that shineth in a dark place ' , and that ' no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation"

>Peter is saying that all visionary prophecy including the Book of Revelation is reliable because it is not just what the prophets thought (their own slant or theory) about certain subjects, but it is direct Holy Spirit breathed truth. The prophets recorded exactly what was conveyed by the Lord without human input including their own.

>He goes further to say that visionarly prophecy is the bottom line. It is even more reliable than his own explanation of his experience on the mountain. It is "more sure" and is "not corrupted by any human input" (private interpretation by the prophet of the message that the prophet received). It is the Lord who writes prophecy, the prophet merely records the message.

>The keys to comprehensive understanding of the Book of Revelation include the following:
1. Proper motive
2. Willingness to spend the time
3. Knowledge of all prior prophetic visions and related Scriptures
4. Knowledge of recorded history
5. Holy Spirit guidance

Yes , it is about all Prophecy .

But there also seems to be a specific message about the Transfiguration , The Second Coming , and the Book of Revelation in what Peter is saying .

This is ' the Light in a dark Place ' I want to get people to explain to me ..........

But before that Marcus l want to step back a minute because l think l'm seeing something l haven't seen before...about no private interpetation and how Stephen worded it.



I have to highlight this!

>He goes further to say that visionary prophecy is the bottom line. It is even more reliable than his own explanation of his experience on the mountain. It is "more sure" and is "not corrupted by any human input" (private interpretation by the prophet of the message that the prophet received). It is the Lord who writes prophecy, the prophet merely records the message.



Why am l getting it today?

So what's being said here is that the visonary experiance is best repeated and not interpreted. (That should make Swarna happy) Then the responsibility lies with the hearer not the giver who perhaps hasn't interpreted what he's heard properly because his flesh is involved. Even the prophets understood this!

That also means the Holy Spirit has to help you interpret what was seen!

Oh brother...I just saw the title of the thread again.

simplebaby,

"This is ' the Light in a dark Place ' I want to get people to explain to me"

>The more sure word of Bible prophecy (the inspired visions themselves) is the light (the truth) in the dark place (place of error).

>The dark place is the world and of human philosophy and unbelief. The light given is the Lord's more sure word of prophecy which leads to the truth about things and believing it.

Miki,

"So what's being said here is that the visonary experiance is best repeated and not interpreted. (That should make Swarna happy) Then the responsibility lies with the hearer not the giver who perhaps hasn't interpreted what he's heard properly because his flesh is involved. Even the prophets understood this!"

>A prime example of this is Daniel, If you step back and look a the overview of the book you will find that all of the visions received had to be explained to Daniel by the angelic messenger and even the Lord Himself in one case. Daniel did not interpret the visions given to him (and neither do any of the Bible prophets), but the Lord always does the explaining. Otherwise we would not have a more sure word of prophecy. Human error and improper motivations would prevent this and we would have unreliable information.

>It is the Lord Himself who has recorded the prophetic visions through the prophets. All of the symbolism, literal content, etc. of the visions is directly from the Lord. He is the Word. The Book of Revelation is His Revelation to us, not John's. John was only an instrument of the Lord in the process. Nothing in Revelation is of John's own interpretation.

>All of visionary prophecy can be properly understood by the reader. This is the Lord's purpose for giving it in the first place. But it takes proper motivation, dedication, and time for the believer to do this. And one must have and allow for assistance from the Lord's Holy spirit. Any errors of understanding will fall on this side of the equasion .... the human interpreter. A believer can have the gift of prophecy today, but this means that one can interpret and explain what is already written properly. It does not mean that original prophecy is given in addition to the things recorded in Scripture and we are not to add any more to His Word. He is the Finisher and He has a finished product.

>Many have attempted to proclaim themselves prophets and originators like the Bible prophets and this is not truth. Much harm has come from this kind of human behavior. The only originating prophets are the Bible prophets and the Lord Himself. And technically, it is the Lord who is the Spirit of all prophecy.

Yes Miki , and also what is implied ( though obvious to Peter ) at the Transfiguration is stated outright in Revelation :

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

But there can still be a word of knowledge...wisdom etc.

But prophecy is the interpretation of scripture already given.

I can see why someone would be blessed if they could read and understand Revelation.

I guess all the confusion comes from us ourselves.

Marcus l know what you're getting at about the transfiguration. I've always wondered too. There's more going on than a glowing light and 3 beings. God wants us to understand more...

Prophecy is .................

prophecy is the foretelling of an event before it happens .

The Prophets and the Law were up to John ..........

The Prophets and the Law FORETOLD of Jesus .

Act 26:22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
V 23 That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.



The Prophecy of Revelation FORETELLS of the Second Coming .

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.[quote]

Another question is , what else does it tell us ?

Well I'll go out on a limb here ..............

I have an undefined feeling that the way to understand revelation is through the OT .

As Calvin has said , the 24 elders are the Hebrew OT .

As Peter says , its not a private interpretation ..............


the light in the dark place =

the moon !!

the moon =

the Old Covenant !!

the old Covenant is laid out in..............

the OT .

I understand what you're saying...I think for those with eyes to see must have been in awe as the scriptures unfolded to them in Christ. The 24 elders OT saints? I wish we had more to go on.

I've been pondering the 'visionary revelation' as Stephen has termed it.

It's not interpreted. How could they?

That's why it's a blessing to read and understand it because God has to show you. But you have to take drivers ed. before he gives you the keys to the car. Driving out in the back 40 won't cut it. You need to know the rules of the road first. Many want to say God whispered in their ear and sidestep this certain instruction...dangerous to meet them on the road or follow them in heavy traffic. I think it's happened here on the forum a bit. We need to be solid.

What are the clues to the 24 elders Marcus?

"But you have to take drivers ed. before he gives you the keys to the car. Driving out in the back 40 won't cut it. You need to know the rules of the road first. Many want to say God whispered in their ear and sidestep this certain instruction...dangerous to meet them on the road or follow them in heavy traffic. I think it's happened here on the forum a bit. We need to be solid"

>I am going to frame this and put it on the wall. And with Miki's permission I want to post it at my website. Can I ?

you can!

What does driving out in the back 40 mean Miki ............?

The 24 Elders is something Calvin mentioned . The Hebrew OT is not 39 books like ours , but 24 apparently .

Anyway , unless I get some earth-shattering vision of waht Revelation means , I am not sure I have much more to say .

simplebaby,

I would suggest to you the following regarding the 24 elders: These are 24 saved human beings .... and not a symbol for the O.T. They apparently have a prominent position as leaders because their position is close to the throne. John is taken to heaven and into the future to be shown what must take place "hereafter" ... not back in the first century or over the last 2,000 years ... but at the time of the end.

He sees the 24 elders and they say who they are in chapter 5:9-10. They also define saved others who are there because just 24 elders would not constitute the numbers indicated in their description. The others can be found in chapter 7:9-17. This is the Church and the 24 elders are the leaders.

We are not told just who the 24 are by name in Scripture. We would have to guess. Here is what I think: I believe that 12 of them are the apostles. John actually saw himself there when his spirit was taken into the future. He may have even answered his own question regarding the great multitude. The other 12 will most likely be those who followed the Lord in O.T. times and had special assignments in their walk. An example would be the 12 patriarchs of Israel. We are not told for sure.

As you read Revelation you will find definitive Scriptures in 12 places that present these saved humans (the 24 elders and the great multitude) who are dwelling in the heavenly state while the Lord's hour of trial is taking place on the earth in the material world.

John saw all of this in advance when his spirit was taken into the future, both the heavenly scene and the earthly scene. He then had to return to Patmos and to his physical body. John will be raised as one of the "dead in Christ" at the Lord's "harpazo" which is still future from today. He will be raised (from sleeping) and translated into the heavenly state (receiving his eternal body) along with the living believers at the time. So John saw the future in advance, and so have we because he has recorded his experience in the Lord's Revelation and we can read it. It is truth.

Miki,

"you can!"

>Thank you very much. It is there at the top.

I'm surprised I've been so dumb about this !!
O maybe not .........

Miki . Just for you .

O how could I miss this for so long !!

When we read the three accounts of what Jesus said on the Mount of Olives , there's a little difference between
Matthew and the other two . Its in the question asked by the disciples .

In Matthew they ask :
' What shall be the sign of thy coming , (and of the end of the world) ?'

Its a completely different question to the one asked in Luke , where the question relates to the destruction of the Temple , and is a differently worded one to the question asked in Mark , ' 'what shall be the sign when all these things are fulfilled ' .

Jesus' reply in Matthew gives one detail that specifically answers the question , and is not present in the other gospels .
24 v 30 : ' and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven . '

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Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;


2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

It seems to me that Jesus Second Coming will be preceeded by a sign in the Heavens . Were that something like a giant asteroid on an inexorable collision with earth that would have two reactions ;it would wreak terror with unbelievers and joy with believers .

Folks from other countries might not recognize the expression "the back 40".
That's were some people learned to drive. The land out behind the barn on the farm.

Revelation is the Book of Signs

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified [it] by his angel unto his servant John:



Mat 16:2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, [It will be] fair weather: for the sky is red 3 And in the morning, [It will be] foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

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Miki ..you're funny !

Good scripture picks.



And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord shall be revealed

sounds good to me!

I think the Church / the Voice of the Church has missed the point a bit .

In obsessing over pre/post/mid Tribulation , it has completely overrun Scripture .

Jesus tells us in Matthew 24 that we will know when he's returning because we will see his SIGN in the sky .
It is also incumbent on any serious Christian to understand the SIGNS ( of the Times ) !!


Revelation is a book of SIGNS .

Of this more anon

Well that's true Marcus. And all we have to do is read the news paper. The writings on the wall.

One of the biggest signs to me and so obvious it's surprising the world doesn't get it.

Calling bad good and good bad. Shouldn't we tell people that is one of the signs of his soon coming?

The reason people think about it so much is because they're excited don't you think?
Some people have gotten a token of tribulation to prepare themselves to be ready.
Others are going to get the full meal deal.

2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;


2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:


2Th 1:5 [Which is] a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:


2Th 1:6 Seeing [it is] a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

yes, yes...the sign. And when the world see's it it will mourn. It will rise in the east when the sun sets in the west, and set in the west when the sun rises in the east, and it will blaze the clouds in fiery glory when it descends just as when Christ ascended the heavens...

sometimes it's a vision too terrifying to behold...

Peter couldn't be much more obvious if he tried . He must be referring either to the moon or a star or some astronomical body . A meteorite or asteroid maybe ?

I wonder if the phrase ' a thief in the night ' , as spoken by Jesus (Aramaic?) , has some astronomical conotation . Again , a comet or something .

simplebaby,

"I wonder if the phrase ' a thief in the night ' , as spoken by Jesus (Aramaic?) , has some astronomical conotation . Again , a comet or something"

>What Revelation Scriptures lead you to conclude this ?

none really .........I was hoping someone else might be able to add some .

But obviously things in the heavenlies immediately precede Christ's return ..........

Stars falling like Figs .............

Is that the Fig Sign Christ referred to ?

Christ is the Word fullfilled. Every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God through Christ and every movement and thing that He did is the fullfillment of the old prophets and the explanation of things past present and future. If you want to know what is going to happen study Christ Himself . His walk and His teachings it's all there.



Charlie

simplebaby,

"none really .........I was hoping someone else might be able to add some .

But obviously things in the heavenlies immediately precede Christ's return ..........

Stars falling like Figs .............

Is that the Fig Sign Christ referred to ?"

>I would suggest the when you read about "stars" falling you will find that these are fallen angelics like Satan. One example is Revelation 9:1. Revelation 12:3-4 and 12:9 are the basis for establishing this criteria. Not always the case, but for the most part.

>actual stars are huge like our sun and there would be nothing left of the earth, or anything else, even if one star, upon impact.

Good reply Stephen .

So are the Sun and Moon of the same description / sentence literal , or metaphorical too ?

simplebaby,

"So are the Sun and Moon of the same description / sentence literal , or metaphorical too ?"

>If you are speaking of the woman of Revelation 12 this picture is symbolic of the nation of Israel (Sun, Moon, Stars). This woman is the "other" woman of Revelation. The woman in chapters 17 and 18 describes the cities, nations, and dominions of the Gentiles. The Lord's relationship with each woman is different. He will destroy the woman of chapters 17 and 18, but will protect the woman of chapter 12.

>Genesis 37:9 shows this same symbolism regarding Israel for the woman in chapter 12 of the Book of Revelation. The Lord is an Israelite by His humanity and He was caught up to God and His throne in the first century. This same woman, "the nation of Israel" will be in existance at the time of the end according to verse 6. The nation of Israel has returned today after a very long period of time and a remnant of the nation will experience the events of the time of the end beginning in verse 6 and continuing in verse 13. The remnant of Israel will be protected by the Lord from Satan's attack. You should also read Zechariah 14:1-5 which records the same future picture.

>There are also references to the actual physical Sun and Moon not giving light because of the judgments that will take place on the earth like in chapter 6 verse 12. The atmosphere wil be filled with the debris from supernatural events so that light from these two luminaries will be greatly diminished.

Rev 12:1 ¶ And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

Joseph never interprets the dream of Genesis 37 , does he ?

It is implied that the 12 stars are the 12 Patriarchs .
Or the 12 tribes of Israel ?
Or both ?

If so , what are the Sun and Moon ?

The only symbolism I know of is that the moon represents the Old Covenant , and the Sun the new .
Therefore the Sun represents Christ .

But that can't be right here . Christ can't bow to Joseph .


Although a Nation clothed with Righteousness ( Malachi ) - the Righteousness of believing in Our Saviour - and with the Old Covenant in the past ( under her feet ) makes good sense . But then the stars have morphed from angels into patriarchs / tribes . I'm confused again .............

simplebaby,

The context of the Genesis symbolism connects Joseph's dream with Israel and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes. Also, it is zechariah 14 that shoudl be read in conjunction with Revelation 12. You should also read Matthew 24:15.

Symbolism can be for angelics and also for other things and we have to consider the immediatre context and the broader overview of Scripture in ordef to rightly define it. There is no morphing, it is a matter of proper definition. The same word can have several different meanings. I would suggest the Blue Letter Bible concordance for definition. It is on line.

Which verses are literal and which symbolic .....?

By the look of Joel , 'fall from heaven' is another way of saying 'stop shining' .


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As per context , we are presently spinning dizzyingly from literal to symbolic .

The sun and moon literally go dark , but the stars which are symbolic , tell us that angels fall from heaven , or that the Jews suffer a Holocaust .

Is that the way Revelation is meant to be understood ?

I don't know , that's why I'm asking .

simplebaby,

>The verses your have listed all refer to the Lord's judgments and the implications are all darkness, distress, and destruction. Natural catastrophies and warfare usually produce these effects and you will find the same in most prophetic literature and the visions of the Bible prophets.

>The student of Bible prophecy has to spend time studying and learning the unique symbolism by association over the broad spectrum of Scriptures. You will eventually began to see the purpose and conveyed meanings.

>Many times the immediate text of a passage of Scripture will explain the meaning of the symbols used and the reader needs to look for this. Often times it is necessary to associate symbols with learned applications from other parts of the Bible.

>There are texts that describe angelics as the stars, or the hosts of heaven. There are also references to the heavenly bodies (actual stars). One needs to learn the proper application, and once discovered things began to make more sense.

>I would certainly assisit you with any questions and applications to speed up your journey, but is sounds to me like you will have to spend some quality time with these challenges. I have spent 25+ years and I can tell you it all makes perfect sense when you discover how the picture fits together.

I was hoping for quick answers , not 25 year ones !!

Just to recap :

You have given two meanings for stars - Angels and Patriarchs .

In the following verse you have said that the stars refer to angels , since they couldn't literally fall from the sky



I have nothing against Symbolism , except that if the stars here are symbolic ,
aren't the sun and moon also ?

This is not neccesarily true , it just seems to be your gist .
You might tell me that we switch abrubtly from literal to symbolic .......

So , if the sun and moon are symbolic , they would be symbols of what ?

However , Joel's prophecy seems to undermine the reading of all this as symbol anyway .

its a great vision HB ..tells us more

"I was hoping for quick answers , not 25 year ones !!"

How long do you think it will take you ? I am making an effort to help you, but will only do so if you want.

"This is not neccesarily true , it just seems to be your gist"

Your opinion ?

"Which verses are literal and which symbolic .....?"

>You tell me.

Thank you Stephen . In a sense you are right ( and I am being facetious ) , no-one is going to understand Revelation overnight .

And it is the mixture of literal signs against symbols , along with events in the spiritual realms , which is hard to fathom ............unravel .

I suppose the consolation for any reader is that most of the events described happen after the sixth seal , which is the timing of the Lord's return .

If the earth tipped on it's axis the stars would appear to fall.

It fits...?

And Stephen this is an encouraging word too...

"I suppose the consolation for any reader is that most of the events described happen after the sixth seal , which is the timing of the Lord's return"

>I would suggest that the 6 seal is a preview of the condition of unbelieving humanity's reaction to the Lord's judgments. This behavior will be prevalent throughout the time of judgment. The actual linear judgment events seem to begin in chapter 8. The purpose of the opening of the seals is to show John, and us, just what the prevailing conditions will be throughout the period, and not linear events added to the up coming judgments.

"If the earth tipped on it's axis the stars would appear to fall.
It fits...?"

>In a general sense this may be true. There will be cosmic movement that can be observed from the earth. But the physical stars (stones of fire) will not actually fall and impact the earth. The Lord still intends to use this planet for His millennial Kingdom after Armageddon and I don't find any replacement or reconditioning on a major scale except moving the land around in certain places and cleaning up the mess. A literal star (they are huge) would completely destroy the earth upon impact.

>Our clue to the understanding of "stars" falling from heaven should be based upon logic applied to scriptural symbols. There is the case for angelics to do this "falling" to the earth at the time of the end. Satan and his free angelic followers are coming to the earth at the time of the end. They are the powers and principalities of the air. The other fallen angelics will come out of the abyss and from the Euphrates River where they are currently bound.

>After the millennium .... a different story. The earth and the current heavens (stars, etc.) will be purged with emmense heat and the elements (building blocks of matter) will melt. A new heaven (universe) and earth will then be created for eternity.

Steadman says:


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/c/1...01767-9629.html

Marcus l spent the afternoon with this summary. You will stumble on why he believes the rapture is pre.

But l see his reasoning just before ch. 4

Thanks Miki ........very good

You're welcome Marcus.

If you go slow and absorb it, it makes it easier to understand.

It isn't that l hold to every word said. But you have to start some place and plain old english is good.

That's an expression that means simple talk. Plain folk.

After the base is established you can begin to cut up the parts and season them with other thoughts and opinions. Of course that's just me. You've probably already plucked, prepared and thrown it in the oven...Maybe your even testing it for doneness. I'm slow.

No its a good piece .

I suppose the bottom line in much of what Jesus said is that he disguised his meaning ( in parables ) .

Revelation is more heavily disguised then .....

meaning that Jesus is witholding its meaning even more vigorously .

Why?

Because its prophetic , and its not meant for the children of darkness , only the children of light .





Revelation is the light that reveals the darkness , the light that shines in a dark place

Here's the word Apocalypse again , meaning revealed .

Cue Calvin..........

On cue ... Revelation is more heavily disguised then ... meaning that Jesus is withholding its meaning even more vigorously. Why?

Marcus answered his question by saying: "Because its prophetic, and its not meant for the children of darkness, only the children of light." Way to go Marcus ... so young and yet so wise.

And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 2 Thess 2:6.

I believe the Reformation saints and martyrs did reveal him in his time as the papacy ... claiming to be as God ... Vicar of Christ ... vicarious, in place of Christ, instead of Christ.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God (ie in the temple of the minds of his followers) shewing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:4.

As you know, I also believe that Pope John Paul The Second was that specific "numbered" beast, but today, the cry of the Reformation and historicists like myself falls upon deaf ears ... it is politically and religiously "incorrect".

Isn't the beast supposed to be alive to fulfill prophecy?
Isn't he supposed to make a 7 year "peace" treaty?
Isn't he supposed to place an image with eyes and a mouth that people worship in some future temple built by Christ rejecting Jews? Are we not going back to animal sacrifice?

Only if you believe teachers like JN Darby, CI Scofield, Hal Lindsey and the boys, that the "HE" of Daniel 9:27 is Antichrist. If you find evidence of this teaching prior to Darby please let me know.

Isn't the beast to be thrown "alive" into the lake of fire?

Are the saved alive in heaven?
Are the lost alive in hell?

Here are some scholars and expositors that believe that the "HE" of Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ.

Albert Barnes
Matthew Henry
Charles Spurgeon
Gratton Guinness
Isaac Newton
E.B. Elliott
The Geneva Bible Translators
Jamisson Faucett and Brown
Adam Clark Commentary
John Calvin
John Wesley
Philip Mauro