False Teachers - Deception or Not ?

There are teachers today who claim that all future prophecies were nullified by the "fulfillment" (their word) of Matthew 24:34 where Jesus says, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." In other words, they try to tell us that 70 AD fulfilled everything. There is nothing left but? - they really don’t say. But if that is the case, how do they explain present day Israel back in the land being prepared for their Messiah.

They claim to be letter perfect in their interpretation of Matthew 23:34, and then proceed to expel or twist all the prophetic things that are still awaiting a future fulfillment. If all future events were fulfilled by Titus in 70 AD, then what do they do with the following scriptures? Did any of these things take place before, and up to, 70 AD? An ounce of common sense says, "No."

But if this premise is true, then what do they do with all of these things that have not happened yet? And what about the fact that the Book of Revelation was written after 90 A.D.?


Acts 1:11 - "...this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." - (Bodily, head first, from the Mt. of Olives)

Romans 11:12 - "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world (our gospel of Grace), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles (our age of Grace); how much more their fulness?" (Israel’s future blessing)

Romans 11:23 - "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graft them in again."

Romans 11:24 - "...how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (Israel), be graffed into their own olive tree?"

Romans 11:25 - "For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery (secret), lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part (for a while) is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles (the Body) be come in."

II Thess. 2:3,4 - "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the Day of the Lord - the Tribulation) shall not come, except there come a falling away (or a departure) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."(Compare this with Daniel 11:36-45)

II Thess. 2:8 - "And then shall that Wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

Jude verses 14 and 15a - "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all,...."


Now, here are more verses from the Old Testament - Keep asking - "Have/Did these things happen before 70 AD?"


Deut. 30:1,2a - "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, wither the Lord thy God hath driven thee, And shalt return unto the Lord thy God, and shalt obey his voice...."

Ezek. 37:1-10, 12- (the vision of the dry bones) "Therefore prophesy and say unto them (the whole house of Israel), Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves (the Gentile nations), ...and bring you to the land of Israel."

Ezek. 37:21, 22, 23- "And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all: Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God."

Ezek. 47:9- "And it shall come to pass, that every thing that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: and there shall be a very great multitude of fish, because these waters shall come thither: for they shall be healed; and every thing shall live whither the river cometh."

Ezek. 47:10- "And it shall come to pass, that the fishers shall stand upon it from En-gedi (now a resort on the West shores of the Dead Sea) even unto En-eglaim; they shall be a place to spread forth nets; their fish shall be according to their kinds, as the fish of the great sea (Mediterranean), exceeding many."

Daniel 9:27- "And he (the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week (7 years): and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (the desolator, the Anti-christ)-(This is the verse Jesus referred to in Matthew 24:15)

Joel 3:2- "I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land."

Joel 3:15, 16- "The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel."

Amos 9:15- "And I will plant them (Israel) upon their land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the Lord thy God."

Zech. 14:4a- "And his feet (the Lord’s-see verse 3) shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east...." (Compare that with previously quoted Acts 1:11 - He left head first - He returns feet first.)

Zech. 14:8- "And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half toward the hinder sea (Dead Sea): in summer and in winter shall it be." (Compare with previously quoted Ezek. 47:9 and 10.)

Zech. 14:9- "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one."


These are just a few of the scriptures that refer to future events that did not take place before 70 AD.

So, what do they do with all this? They simply throw them out or twist them so completely that they change their meaning. And what does Scripture say about people who twist Scripture?

II Peter 3:16- "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."

This site gives a good Biblical explanation:

http://quietearth.freeyellow.com/page69.html

Thanks. Excellent resource on false doctrine ....beware..

Thank you Stephen!

Miki,

You are welcome.

I learned long ago that all false doctrine is the doctrine of demons, and those who continue to perpetuate false teachings contrary to the truths of God’s Word open themselves up for demonization and, not only is it a waste of time, but it is impossible to reason with a demon. This is the main cause for the strong hold and unwillingness for some to accept the truths contained in the Word of God. "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons" [1 Tim 4:1]. Those who have "ears to hear" can hear.

I will begin posting items on this subject of last day deceptions without identifying any particular denomination or source of professing Christianity. I have received an excellent resource from a post member and will display some of the ways that one can discern false teaching.

We are in a time where there is a great deal of this type of activity and individuals (believers and unbelievers) need to know how to detect truth from error when evaluating what they hear and see. It is essential for one to study the Lord's Word and to absorb and understand as much as possible in order to develop a soild defense against false doctrines.


Characteristics of satanic deception:

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." [2 Corinthians 11:13-15]

They do not understand grace:

"For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." [Jude 4]

Teachers of false docrtrine are conceited, placed above the brethren:

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings," [ 1 Timothy 6:3-4]

The teacher of false doctrine will love error and teach fables:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." [2 Timothy 4:3-4]

Thanks Stephen,
for sharing this, for these are confusing times.

I will never be confused in the fact that Jesus is my King.
Ruler of my heart and soul.
I give it all to Him. He is in control.

Anxiously awaiting to study and learn with you Stephen.
Thanks for your time.

love,
rosie
who seeks truth=Jesus

False teachers can be recognized by their methods. Their heresies are "secretly introduced" and they will purposly avoid revealing their complete doctrines initially by baiting and leading with controversial issues. [2Peter 2:1]. They “creep in unnoticed” [Jude 1:4]. They are intentionally devious and deceptive, not wishing to be known for what they are. In some cases, they do not even recognize their own condition. They not only deceive, they are themselves deceived [2 Timothy 3:13] [2 Peter 2:13].

Thank you Stephen! I could not agree with you more. Please continue to expose the lies of Satan. You are always so informative. I appreicate all of the information you supply us.

Your Friend in Christ,
Val

Messiahiscoming

Replacement Theology
The believer needs to be aware of this growing movement within the broad context of professing Christianity. The hidden danger lies in the concept of replacement theology which contains anti-semitism within its foundational beliefs. This teaching not only complicates the correct interpretation of the prophetic scriptures, it also carries with it the concept and application of salvation by works and legalisms for adherants who consider themselves to be spiritual Israelites. The organization then teaches and requires members to follow a particular dogma of works in order to be saved and accepted by the organization.

Replacement theology teaches that the Church (usually exclusively and specifically the denomination that holds the belief) is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to and requirements for Israel in the Bible have been and are to be fulfilled by and for the Church, not national Israel. So, direct prophecies in the Scriptures concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the promised land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God's blessing for the Church.

Major difficulties exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the re-appearance of the modern state of Israel. If Israel has been discarded by the Lord, and there is no future in His plan for the Jewish nation, how do we explain the supernatural survival of the nation from its inception thousands of years ago despite the many attempts to destroy it completely. How do we explain why and how Israel re-appeared as a people and a nation in the 20th century after not existing for 1,900 years?

Why does the current Middle East upheaval involve all nations and present difficult problems without solution primarily because of national Israel's presence in the Land of Israel ? The answers to these questions are in the Bible and understanding them correctly requires the recognition of national Israel in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets. Major denominations of professing Christianity have embraced replacement theology and so have the teachers and adherants of Islam to an even greater extent.

This is an issue that's close to your heart Stephen...

One of my old prayer partners had to leave her church of many years because of this.

And our Dear President..

I wonder why they've choosen this path when even to me...someone who knows relatively little about scripture see's clearly Gods sanctified people even unto the end of the age and for all eternity?

I have a supernatural love for Israel even as long as l can remember.
Like some have a supernatural hatered..?

The holocost should be evidence enough. Satan had his claw dripping the blood of their name.

I understand they are stiff necked and rebellious. I've been reading Jeremiah at night before l go to sleep. He has me weeping along with him. But God is almost done punishing...and those whos eyes he opens will sing.

Miki,

"I wonder why they've choosen this path when even to me...someone who knows relatively little about scripture see's clearly Gods sanctified people even unto the end of the age and for all eternity?"

>I find that the reasons for the choice are to substantiate traditional teaching that was developed in error, to retain the exclusiveness of the organization by the leaders who do not want to lose credibility for fear of the loss of influence and control over the membership, and with an underlying spirit of competition against the root and the natural branches. We are not to boast against national Israel's central role and Paul explains this to great extent in Romans 10, 11, & 12.

"I have a supernatural love for Israel even as long as l can remember.
Like some have a supernatural hatered..?"

>Your supernatural love is Holy Spirit centered for sure. I can almost always tell about the position of a professing Christian by this very attribute. The opposite is also true in most cases and it because an unbeliever can be easily influenced by other forces which they may not be aware of that are antagonistic toward Israel and their Messiah.

"The holocost should be evidence enough. Satan had his claw dripping the blood of their name."

>No question about it. He thinks that if he can eliminate Israel that this will nullify the Lord's plans and purposes to return to the nation, establish his millennial Kingdom, and eventually destroy him. He knows he is going down, but his pride will keep him in the game as long as the Lord allows.

"I understand they are stiff necked and rebellious. I've been reading Jeremiah at night before l go to sleep. He has me weeping along with him. But God is almost done punishing...and those whos eyes he opens will sing."

>That they are. Try, if you have not, witnessing to one and see how far you get. I did recently with a New York attorney and things were going well as long as we talked about Judaism and the O.T. When I moved to N.T. subjects I was stopped in my tracks and he said "this is where we part company". The Lord has made them very different, very intelligent, very successful, and even peculiar ... all survivor attributes. I live in South Dakota and we have a few trees that grow here one of which is the cedar. They are very tough, unpleasant to touch, not very pleasant to the eye, but they survive like you cannot believe. They can go for months without rain and not even show it. These must be Israelite trees.

>Jeremiah is the most dynamic prophet, Daniel the most dedicated, Ezekiel the most detailed, and Isaiah the father of them, all in my opinion, and their visions of both near and far predictions are very foundational to the correct understanding of all Bible prophecy. You will always be blessed when you spend time with the prophets of Israel. As you say .... almost done, open eyes, and singing. As brother Paul says [Romans 11:25-36]

Stephen,
I commend you for looking at the role of false doctrine today.
I do have a question that should be clarified.



After establishing your view of National Israel you wrote:


I have read all of the posts in this section and after puting them all together, with other comments you have made, it seems to me you are saying,
Anyone who believes in a post-trib rapture, a Christ centered approach to Old Testament prophecies, and that Jesus is the ultimate fulfillment of all prophecies to Israel. That person is only doing so because they are seeking favor from their denominational leadership, they are demonic and it is not worth answering their posts.

I hope I am misunderstanding the thrust of your posts in this topic.
And I hope that you will respond and clarify your position.
It only seems fair.
3am

Because God let this become a way of life...Ingrained and inescapable.
Sad and frightening to challenge the Living God.



I was privileged to attract the attention of a Jewish radio host through email. I had the same experience but l hadn't even broached the subject and he put the road block up before l could even go there. There are Jewish websites devoted to the handling of Christian evangelism.

I get the impression that this type of person (and they don't necessarily have to be Jewish) want to discover it for themselves. They don't want to be told. They have a mind and can read study and learn as well and probably better than us.

Thanks for the tip.


I wonder why some come...I've heard Jay Sekulow's story and many others.
Why some and not others? That's the hard part for me.

Is it because the enemy takes extra time to involve with these people because they are Gods chosen? And breaking through requires supernatural skill and endless patience?

Or are we wasting our time and like the text of Jeremiah says.

Don't even bother praying..

Stephen,

Note:
Note: This red color indicates a note entered after writing the message below.
After going back and reading several other posts, it is possible I misunderstood you.
It seems that the attorney may be a Jew and you were talking about witnessing to Jews.
At first I thought you were talking about witnessing to someone who believed that NT writers saw the OT prophecies being fulfilled to the church. At any rate, the post is still a valid point. So I am going to leave it.

Have you ever considered the possibility that when you got to the NT it became obvious to them that God was going to fulfill His promises to the Jews in ways that were far superior to anyting they could possibly imagine?
Is it possible that when they discovered how Jesus and the NT writers interpreted the OT that they chose to believe Jesus and the NT writers instead of the popular view?

Perhaps they like Peter saw that the true beauty and love of the OT was that it pointed to the Gospel of Christ now, in the present age.
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, 11trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves but you, when they spoke of the things that have now been told you by those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven.

Is it possible that others can prayerfully and carefully study the Bible Prophecies and honestly come out with a different understanding than you have?
Or are all who see things differently from you trying to protect some hidden denominational agenda or even worse, they are demonic false teachers?
3am

"I wonder why some come...I've heard Jay Sekulow's story and many others.
Why some and not others? That's the hard part for me.

Is it because the enemy takes extra time to involve with these people because they are Gods chosen? And breaking through requires supernatural skill and endless patience?

Or are we wasting our time and like the text of Jeremiah says.

Don't even bother praying.."

>Why some and not others ? That's the way it is with all humans, Jew or Gentile. Some do, some will not. The Scriptures tells us this truth.

>Those Jews who do become believers are are fierce contenders for the faith. Remember the first followers of the Lord were Israelites. If there were just 12 of these guys, think about what 144,000 of them will accomplish during the Lord's hour of trial. All of the O.T. prophets were national Israelites.

>We should never give up initially because we don't know for sure of the Lord's intentions with any individual. If after some time and patience there is no detectible movement, and obvious outright rejection, we should leave it, but always be available to possibilities. You can actually drive some away by forced witness and I have seen this happen. We can always pray and should.

>There are some who will just not buy the message. All humans, Jew or Gentile, are individually and ultimately accountable to the Lord for their position with Him.

Stephen,


First I should clarify. I have posted a number of passages qutoting Jesus and the NT writers
which clearly show that they saw the OT promises to Israel being fulfilled to the church. It seems then that you would include my posts as those coming from a "False Teacher." Although I have hope that you would not lump me in with those you label as demonizers who are only interested in pleasing their denominational leaders.
The problem is that you have already done the later in a previous post,
but I can still hold out hope that in your eyes I am not a demon.

While it is true that some do adhere to a Replacement Theology, many who see the OT prophecies being fulfilled in the church do not. I do not. It is not accurate to lump them in with all of the others. For them, "Replacement Theology" is a misnomer. God is not replacing national Israel with the church, because "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel (Romans 9:6).
And today God has a believing remnant of Israelites who form the True Israel! Gentiles are grafted into their true Israel tree and together make up the church. And it is both the fullness of the Gentiles and the Fulness of the Jews that Paul concludes is how "All Israel will be saved." The church does not replace Israel, Gentiles join with believing Jews and together are the true Israel, which always been "the church" enen in the OT (Acts 7:38 KJV).

Carefully read Romans 11:28-32
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have NOW received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have NOW become disobedient in order that they too may NOW receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Paul does not demonstrate his love for Israel by conforting them with a promise that God will remember them in 2000 years and bless them by gathering them into the land to fight the battle of Armageddon. In fact it is just the opposite. Paul sees a remarkable interdependence between Jew nd Gentile working together. There is nothing in Romans 11 to indicate a future gathering into the land for National Israel.

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Far from being anti-Semitic, Paul's love for the Jews encompased something far greater than a
gathering of National Israel to the land. He Saw them gathered to Christ! NOW!
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He is saying that you can have the blessing now.



Come on Stephen! Shame on you!
You are resorting to name calling against those who disagree with you.
Was Paul teaching works and was he trying to support an orgnization when he said,
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth... 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace. Eph 2:8-15.
Paul was clearly bringing Gentiles into the covenant of the promises to Israel and thus making them citizens in Israel. Is he anti-Semitic?



For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. 2Corinthians 1:20.
Was Paul teaching "Replacement Theology?"

What about Peter? Was he being anti-Semitic and legalistic when he wrote:
“As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says: 'See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.'”

Peter even quotes Isaiah as looking to the future when the cornerstone of the temple is laid, showing that it is fulfilled, not in a literal temple, but in the ultimate temple, Christ. Peter would never fit into your criteria posted on a different, that "no OT prophecy is being fulfilled between the anointing of the Messiah and the rapture of the church." Was he teaching Replacement Theology?



Amos 9:11-12 (NIV) “In that day I will restore David’s fallen tent I will repair its broken places, restore its ruins, and build it as it used to be, 12 so that they may possess the remnant of Edom and all the nations that bear my name, declares the Lord, who will do these things.

This is a "direct prophecy" that one would expect should be fulfilled by a literal rebuilding of Jerusalem.
In Acts 15:13-18
The church leaders were debating whether or not Gentile converts should be circumcised.
Peter explained how God saved the Gentile Cornileus and his men at Caesarea, Northwest of Jerusalem.
Then James Said:
13 When they finished, James spoke up: Brothers, listen to me. 14 Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16 After this I will return and rebuild Davids fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17 that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things. 18 that have been known for ages.


James remarkably applies the coming in to the church by Gentiles in Ceassarea Philipi as a fulfillment of Amos's OT prophecy without any regard for literal, ethnic or geographic distinctions.



Noticably missing among your Major difficulties is any Bible text. In fact there were non in this post. I have listed many here as well as elsewhere that in my opinion, contradict what you have written.
It seems to me, that if you are going to take such a hard stand and insist that those who hold this view which is contradictory to yours, are false teachers and demons who are only trying to please denominational leaders, that you would at least have the courtesy to respond to the texts mentioned above.
I am holding out hope that you will in spite of the fact that you have consistently refused to
answer questions like these in the past.
If you do not answer them, I hope and pray that those who read this post will take note.
I still remain
Your brother in Christ
3am

Miki,

We should all have a supernatural love for Israel, as well as everyone. But there
is something special about Israel!
I am also aware that many have a supernatural hatred for Israel. Just watch the news!
But since you were responding to Stephen's post about "Replacement Theology"
it almost sounded like you were accusing those who see things that way of having a supernatural hatred.

But let me ask you, Is in hatred for one to believe that the NT teaches Israel need not wait for the
rapture to experience the blessings promised by God?
Is it hatred to tell them that:
"No matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. 2Corinthians 1:20
Is it hateful for someone to say to the Jew that Christ has broken down the barrier and we
can now claim all of those promises in HIM. Is that hateful?
You may not agree with them, but just because someone disagrees with your view, does that make them supernaturally hateful?
I am a little worried about the critical, judgmental tone this topic is taking.
your friend in Christ,
3am

Just found this thread... I'll be following with great interest. Thank you Stephen!

RaindropsOnRoses,

You are welcome.

This is what I have been pondering in my heart as of late.
We gentiles are grafted on to the olive tree. Is this correct.
We are one with the jews who believe.

Christ is all for unity among the believers is this correct.
Then when He returns He will not take us gentile believers,
without the jewish believers to heaven will He. We are adopted to the family of God
We are His children.

Just like if I would adopt a child and I would only give the adopted child first
privilege to come with me, instead of my natural child, or vice a versa.

Okay folks I am extremely tired. So I will use that for an excuse of perhapsnot
being clear. But I truly believe He will return in the clouds for all to see.
Jew and gentile believers will be with Him in paradise.

Someone help me out here and what are your thouights.
The Lord has been speaking to me about this.
Some will never open their eyes, but all eyes will see Him when He returns.

Some will have great fear and others great joy in His returning.

Help, what do you think.

love,
rosie
who thinks His church-who are His believers be it Jew or gentile will go through
a purifying process before His return. I am going through one now,it is just beginning. I do believe He is coming back for a pure bride. This too is why I believe we will go through tribulation for more reason than one.

RosielovesJesus,

This is what I have been pondering in my heart as of late.
We gentiles are grafted on to the olive tree. Is this correct.
We are one with the jews who believe.

>Yes we are. We are the wild olive branches grafted in.

Christ is all for unity among the believers is this correct.

>Absolutely. Unfortunately we have division, but this is error on our side not His.

Then when He returns He will not take us gentile believers,
without the jewish believers to heaven will He. We are adopted to the family of God .We are His children.

>He will take both Jew and Gentile believers together.

Just like if I would adopt a child and I would only give the adopted child first privilege to come with me, instead of my natural child, or vice a versa.

>Either way, the same.

Okay folks I am extremely tired. So I will use that for an excuse of perhapsnot
being clear. But I truly believe He will return in the clouds for all to see.
Jew and gentile believers will be with Him in paradise.

>I believe you are correct.

Someone help me out here and what are your thouights.
The Lord has been speaking to me about this.
Some will never open their eyes, but all eyes will see Him when He returns.

>Some will not turn to the Lord, but all will know the truth about Him. Both believers and unbelievers. All eyes will see Him.

Some will have great fear and others great joy in His returning.

>This is true.

who thinks His church-who are His believers be it Jew or gentile will go through a purifying process before His return.

>There are different opinions on this issue. If you are a believer (I can tell that you are), then you do not need to be "purified". What we can do is ask the Lord for His strength to enable us to live for Him as He wants. You are saved by grace through faith. You can do nothing more to perfect your salvation.

I am going through one now,it is just beginning. I do believe He is coming back for a pure bride. This too is why I believe we will go through tribulation for more reason than one.

>He is coming back for a pure bride and we are that because of what He has done for us at the cross ... not we we have or can do. Just keep your focus on Him and He will keep you in position .... on the Rock. Some may go through His hour of trial, but I would suggest that you should be ready at all times for His call .... every day, every hour, every minute. This way you cannot lose whether He calls you sooner, or later. Pre-trib, mid-trib, post trib ? .... be a pan-tribber (ready for any moment and to experience His early, or later call) ..... then you cannot lose. He will keep His promise to save you and He has the power to do it. Your part is to trust that He will .... and He will.

RosielovesJesus,



Rosie, you are RIGHT.
The NT is crystal clear, if we would just trust the NT writers, as I mentioned above.




Again, you are very right.
In revelation 1:7 Jesus told the church:
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
This leaves no room for a rapture of the church, with the wicked not seeing what is happening.



Perhaps the reason you are feeling tired and confused, is because some keep throwing out
all kinds of interpretations along with texts that have nothing to do with their interpretations to give the appearance of a superior knowledge while they refuse to answer the pertinent questions raised by the NT writers. Then at the same time, call any one who disagrees with them false teachers and demonic.

Just follow the Lamb.
Follow Jesus, not my posts or anyone else.


Here is another senario:
There will be a time of testing when the beast enforces his mark on those who refuse to worship him. some witll in fact be put to death.
At the same time the 3 Angels sound their messages to the entire world, proclaiming the truth, announcing the judgment, inviting the world to worship the Creator, not the creature (beast).
The second angel warns that Babylon has fallen.
The thrid angel warns against worshiping the beast. (Revelation 14)

In Revelation 15, the temple in heaven is closed until the 7 last plagues are poured out.
Salvation only comes through Christ ministering in the temple in heaven. Then it will be closed.
God's people have been sealed with God's seal.
Satan's people with His mark.
Satan's kingdom had been persecuting God's people but now it is pay back time.
Those who received the mark will also receive the wine of the wrath of God, the seven last plagues. This is the great tribulation (Revelation 16-19).
Just as God delivered Israel from Egypt with plagues, now he delivers Israel (all believers) again, this time from spiritual Babylon by means of plagues.
The great tribulation is not for persecuting the saints. It is for their delieverence from the persecution that took place during the enforcement of the mark of the beast.

Keep in mind that Revelation is mainly symbolic, not literal.

This was a very rough outline.
see if it fits with what God has been showing you in Scriptures.
3am

Seems that the mark of the anti-christ is the Satanic mockery passover...in the first passover the mark of the blood of lamb over the door marked the Jews as being saved from death of the firstborn....this time, a mark will mark those reserved for death...

3am what you have said fits totally with scripture.
My husband and I read what you said but in all reality this is what
God says for you have quoted scripture and this is how I understand it too.

Sorry for the long run on sentence, but I felt great joy and peace
after reading your post.

Stephen I agree with a lot of what you are saying too, but not all of it.
I do believe you love Jesus.
We will just have to agree to disagree on some things.

You are right Stephen it is not God's fault for division.
This is ours.
God has not fault, no sin. He is Holy and perfect.

As for us, you are right we can really do nothing to be saved, but believe.
But remember faith without works is dead.
That is why I feel I am being put through a purifying process. Trials are coming and how will we deal with it. Will we remember our faith in all things. Am I ready to jump in the fire and know that God will protect. How strong is your faith rosie.
There has to be growth going on. Trials make you strong, especially when you know that your strength only came from God.

I pray we do. We love Him. He is holding us in the palm of His hands.
Let us all remember to look up at Him and simply thank Him.

I will never claim to know it all.
Today I feel like I know nothing but the fact that I love Him!
And for today it is enough, because I know He loves me too.

Perhaps that was,will and always should be enough for us.

Okay just rambling with emotion today.

I love you all
And I thank you for leading me into more bible study.

God bless you.

flyingsquirrel,


Right, God's people have his seal and are marked for Life!
Satan's people have the counterfeit and are marked for death.
3am

Bringing this forward. This is still waiting for an answer.
C

3am...you said:


Not at all. I wasn't even thinking on those lines. I was just pondering over it.

Allegory and False Teaching
The allegorical approach of Scriptural interpretation should always be evaluated for proper application and in some cases suspected of manipulation. This method of interpretation can lead to the freedom from the constraints of the strict plain meaning of Bible verses. Using explanations based on allegory, metaphor, typology and other figurative methods, allows for one to assign whatever meanings to a verse by choice rather than by comparative analysis and subjection to a set of solid precepts developed from a wide and comprehensive knowleged of the Scriptures.

False teachers will often pick and choose various Scriptures, or combinations of Scriptures, and arbitrarily assign allegorical meanings to those that should be understood literally and this is done for the purpose of making them fit their dogmas. This is done especially when the correct literal interpretation goes against the grain and it is then easily transformed by applying the allegorical method of interpretation.

Most of the contents of the Bible have literal meanings and are explained within the context of the immediate passage of Scriptures or by comparison with other related verses. Even the symbolism used in Scripture is adequately defined within the immediate text in most cases or can be founded by comparative analysis of related subjects.

Follow Jesus and this all becomes a mute point. If one has a pure heart it really does not matter much what anybody says or what is going on in the world. God can not lie and He will do what He says He will do. Sometimes knowledge becomes a lust of the flesh.

The Ground is Thirsty
by Dr. E.W. Bullinger

A figure is simply a word or a sentence thrown into a peculiar form, different from its original or simplest meaning or use. These forms are constantly used by every speaker and writer. It is impossible to hold the simplest conversation, or to write a few sentences without, it may be unconsciously, making use of figures. We may say, "the ground needs rain": that is a plain, cold, matter-of-fact statement; but if we say "the ground is thirsty," we immediately use a figure. It is nor true to fact, and therefore it must be a figure. But how true to feeling it is! how full of warmth and life! Hence, we say, "the crops suffer"; we speak of "a hard heart," "a rough man," "an iron will." In all these cases we take a word which has a certain, definite meaning, and apply the name, or the quality, or the act, to some other thing with which it is associated, by time or place, cause or effect, relation or resemblance.

Some figures are common to many languages; others are peculiar to some one language. There are figures used in the English language, which have nothing that answers to them in Hebrew or Greek; and there are Oriental figures which have no counterpart in English; while there are some figures in various languages, arising from human infirmity and folly, which find, of course, no place in the word of God.
It may be asked, "How are we to know, then, when words are to be taken in their simple, original form (i.e., literally), and when they are to be taken in some other and peculiar form (i.e., as a Figure) ?" The answer is that, whenever and wherever it is possible, the words of Scripture are to be understood literally, but when a statement appears to be contrary to our experience, or to known fact, or revealed truth; or seems to be at variance with the general teaching of the Scriptures, then we may reasonably expect that some figure is employed. And as it is employed only to call our attention to some specially designed emphasis, we are at once bound to diligently examine the figure for the purpose of discovering and learning the truth that is thus emphasized.
From non-attention to these Figures, translators have made blunders as serious as they are foolish. Sometimes they have translated the figure literally, totally ignoring its existence; sometimes they have taken it fully into account, and have translated, not according to the letter, but according to the spirit; sometimes they have taken literal words and translated them figuratively. Commentators and interpreters, from inattention to the figures, have been led astray from the real meaning of many important passages of God's Word; while ignorance of them has been the fruitful parent of error and false doctrine. It may be truly said that most of erroneous and conflicting views of the Lord's People, have their root and source, either in figuratively explaining away passages which should be taken literally, or in taking literally what has been thrown into a peculiar form or Figure of language: thus, not only falling into error, but losing the express teaching, and missing the special emphasis which the particular Figure was designed to impart to them.
This is an additional reason for using greater exactitude and care when we are dealing with the words of God. Man's words are scarcely worthy of such study. Man uses figures, but often at random and often in ignorance or in error. But "the words of the Lord are pure words." All His works are perfect, and when the Holy Spirit takes up and uses human words, He does so, we may be sure, with unerring accuracy, infinite wisdom, and perfect beauty.
We may well, therefore, give all our attention to "the words which the Holy Ghost teacheth."
Introduction
Jehovah has been pleased to give us the revelation of His mind and will in words It is therefore absolutely necessary that we should understand not merely the meanings of the words themselves, but also the laws which govern their usage and combinations.
All language is governed by law; but, in order to increase the power of a word, or the force of an expression, these laws are designedly departed from, and words and sentences are thrown into, and used in, new forms, or figures.
The ancient Greeks reduced these new and peculiar forms to science, and gave names to more than two hundred of them.
The Romans carried forward this science: but with the decline of learning in the Middle Ages, it practically died out. A few writers have since then occasionally touched upon it briefly, and have given a few trivial examples: but the knowledge of this ancient science is so completely forgotten, that its very name to-day is used in a different sense and with almost an opposite meaning.
These manifold forms which words and sentences assume were called by the Greeks Schema and by the Romans, Figura. Both words have the same meaning, viz., a shape or figure. When we speak of a person as being "a figure" we mean one who is dressed in some peculiar style, and out of the ordinary manner. The Greek word Schema is found in I Cor. 7:31, "The fashion of this world passeth away"; Phil. 2:8, "being found in fashion as a man." The Latin word Figura is from the verb fingere, to form, and has passed into the English language in the words figure, transfigure, configuration, effigy, feint, feign, etc.
We use the word figure now in various senses. Its primitive meaning applies to any marks, lines, or outlines, which make a form or shape. Arithmetical figures are certain marks or forms which represent numbers (1, 2, 3, etc.). All secondary and derived meanings of the word "figure" retain this primitive meaning.
Applied to words, a figure denotes some form which a word or sentence takes, different from its ordinary and natural form. This is always for the purpose of giving additional force, more life, intensified feeling, and greater emphasis. Whereas to-day "Figurative language " is ignorantly spoken of as though it made less of the meaning, and deprived the words of their power and force. A passage of God's Word is quoted; and it is met with the cry, "Oh, that is figurative" -- implying that its meaning is weakened, or that it has quite a different meaning, or that it has no meaning at all. But the very opposite is the case. For an unusual form (figura) is never used except to add force to the truth conveyed, emphasis to the statement of it, and depth to the meaning of it. When we apply this science then to God's words and to Divine truths, we see at once that no branch of Bible study can be more important, or offer greater promise of substantial reward.
It lies at the very root of all translation; and it is the key to true interpretation... As the course of language moves smoothly along, according to the laws which govern it, there is nothing by which it can awaken or attract our attention. It is as when we are travelling by railway. As long as everything proceeds according to the regulations we notice nothing; we sleep, or we read, or meditate as the case may be. But, let the train slacken its speed, or make an unexpected stop; -- we immediately hear the question asked, "What is the matter?" "What are we stopping for?" We hear one window go down and then another: attention is thoroughly aroused, and interest excited. So it is exactly with our reading. As long as all proceeds smoothly and according to law we notice nothing. But suddenly there is a departure from some law, a deviation from the even course -- an unlooked for change -- our attention is attracted, and we at once give our mind to discover why the words have been used in a new form, what the particular force of the passage is, and why we are to put special emphasis on the fact stated or on the truth conveyed. In fact, it is not too much to say that, in the use of these figures, we have, as it were, the Holy Spirit's own markings of our Bibles.
This is the most important point of all. For it is not by fleshly wisdom that the "words which the Holy Ghost teacheth" are to be understood. The natural man cannot understand the Word of God. It is foolishness unto him. A man may admire a sun-dial, he may marvel at its use, and appreciate the cleverness of its design; he may be interested in its carved-work, or wonder at the mosaics or other beauties which adorn its structure: but, if he holds a lamp in his hand or any other light emanating from himself or from this world, he can make it any hour he pleases, and he will never be able to tell the time of day. Nothing but the light from God's sun in the Heavens can tell him that. So it is with the Word of God. The natural man may admire its structure, or be interested in its statements; he may study its geography, its history, yea, even its prophecy; but none of these things will reveal to him his relation to time and eternity. Nothing but the light that cometh from Heaven. Nothing but the Sun of Righteousness can tell him that. It may be said of the Bible, therefore, as it is of the New Jerusalem -- "The Lamb is the light thereof." The Holy Spirit's work in this world is to lead to Christ, to glorify Christ. The Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit; and the same Spirit that inspired the words in the Book must inspire its truths in our hearts, for they can and must be " Spiritually discerned " (I Cor. 2:1-16).
On this foundation, then, we have prosecuted this work. And on these lines we have sought to carry it out.
We are dealing with the words "which the Holy Ghost teacheth." All His works are perfect. "The words of the Lord are pure words"; human words, indeed, words pertaining to this world, but purified as silver is refined in a furnace. Therefore we must study every word, and in so doing we shall soon learn to say with Jeremiah (15:16), "Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and Thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart..."
It is clear, therefore, that no branch of Bible-study can be more important: and yet we may truly say that there is no branch of it which has been so utterly neglected.
A figure is, as we have before said, a departure from the natural and fixed laws of Grammar or Syntax; but it is a departure not arising from ignorance or accident. Figures are not mere mistakes of Grammar; on the contrary, they are legitimate departures from law, for a special purpose. They are permitted variations with a particular object. Therefore they are limited as to their number, and can be ascertained, named, and described.
No one is at liberty to exercise any arbitrary power in their use. All that art can do is to ascertain the laws to which nature has subjected them. There is no room for private opinion, neither can speculation concerning them have any authority.
It is not open to any one to say of this or that word or sentence, "This is a figure," according to his own fancy, or to suit his own purpose. We are dealing with a science whose laws and their workings are known. If a word or words be a figure, then that figure can be named, and described. It is used for a definite purpose and with a specific object. Man may use figures in ignorance, without any particular object. But when the Holy Spirit takes up human words and uses a figure (or peculiar form), it is for a special purpose, and that purpose must be observed and have due weight given to it.
Many misunderstood and perverted passages are difficult, only because we have not known the Lord's design in the difficulty.
Thomas Boys has well said (Commentary, I Pet. 3), "There is much in the Holy Scriptures, which we find it hard to understand: nay, much that we seem to understand so fully as to imagine that we have discovered in it some difficulty or inconsistency. Yet the truth is, that passages of this kind are often the very parts of the Bible in which the greatest instruction is to be found: and, more than this, the instruction is to be obtained in the contemplation of the very difficulties by which at first we are startled. This is the intention of these apparent inconsistencies. The expressions are used, in order that we may mark them, dwell upon them, and draw instruction out of them. Things are put to us in a strange way, because, if they were put in a more ordinary way, we should not notice them."
This is true, not only of mere difficulties as such, but especially of all Figures: i.e., of all new and unwonted forms of words and speech: and our design in this work is that we should learn to notice them and gain the instruction they were intended to give us.
The Word of God may, in one respect, be compared to the earth. All things necessary to life and sustenance may be obtained by scratching the surface of the earth: but there are treasures of beauty and wealth to be obtained by digging deeper into it. So it is with the Bible. "All things necessary to life and godliness" lie upon its surface for the humblest saint; but, beneath that surface are "great spoils" which are found only by those who seek after them as for "hid treasure."
Ethelbert W. Bullinger.
November, 1899.

This article appears on the site: http://www.peterwade.com/

Miki,

Good information on your post. I agree.


Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.

Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little.


2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

rtkii,

I don't think trying to get a good grasp of the scriptures is a lust of the flesh. We can't follow Jesus if we aren't clear on what he is saying.

I dragged this over from another string. I keep wondering if l've slowly wandered off the path...?

Stephen, I just read a whole page on allegorical teaching the other day. But I must say I understood what you are saying much better.
Yes allegorical teaching can confuse us. The web site where I was reading about allegorical teaching confused me and I literally did not get it. LOL!

Hey Miki aren't you going to tell us what will make our hair stand on end.
You have got us curious now.

Thanks Stephen
can our emotions make us allegorical without knowing it.

"Hey Miki aren't you going to tell us what will make our hair stand on end.
You have got us curious now."

>Yes tell us. I don't have any and Rosie doesn't care .... tell us !!!

"Thanks Stephen
can our emotions make us allegorical without knowing it"

You are welcome.

I don't know how Stephen saw me through his computer, but I guess he saw
my hair and said oh she won't care.
And he would be right. My hair already looks ready for some hair raising news.

do tell.

Stephen


I agree whole heartedly!
There is a place for allegory, spiritual and typological applications. The Bible is full of them.
That is precisely why we need some kind of control in assigning a spiritual, allegorical or typological meaning to a scripture.
What can we do to control our interpretation?
It is simple. Let the Scriptures have the final word.
Never spiritualize anything that is not spiritualize by Scripture and you are safe.
In a broader sense, when interpreting the Old Testament, The NT must have the final word.
The NT writers under divine inspiration, disclosed surprising correspondences between God's redemptive acts in the Old Testament and the salvation they had beheld in Jesus Christ.
For example:
The lamb offered at Passover was a type. It pointed forward to Christ who was the antitype.
How can we be sure?
"For even Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us" 1 Cor 5:7

The manna (bread in the wilderness) was a type.
Jesus said, I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead (John 6:47, 48; 1Cor 10:1-3).
The rock that Moses struck and the water came gushing forth was a type. 1 Cor 10:1-3
Israel passing through the Red Sea was a type of Baptism. 1 Cor 10: 1-3

The OT Kings were types pointing to Christ: Jesus said, "One greater than Solomon is here." Mat 12:42

The Jewish Temple was a type of Christ. "One greater than the temple is here!" Mat 12:6

The OT Mt. Zion was a type of the Church.
"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God... 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven." Heb 12:22-23


Even Israel was a type of Jesus.
Hoseah 11:1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."
Matthew 2: 14, 15 "So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, 15where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: "Out of Egypt I called my son."
Here is a remarkable application where Matthew points to Israel's captivity in Egypt as a type that had to be fulfilled by Jesus going to Egypt.

Adam was the first type:
"Adam... who is the figure (Greek tupos or type) of him that was to come" Romans 5:14.
Just as Adam went to sleep and out of his side, God took something (rib) and formed his bride.
Christ went to sleep, and out of his side came water and blood from which God formed his bride, the church.
No wonder Jesus said all of the Scriptures testified of Him!



This is a very narrow and limited view of the Bible.
In fact the examples above show just the opposite.

Adam and Eve tried the narrow literal approach in Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed; it shall bruise your head, and you shalt bruise his heel.
Eve was the only woman on the planet, there was nothing in this first prophecy to make
them think it was not literal. So they named their first son, Cain, which means "acquired."
They thought they had acquired the fulfillment of the promise. But the only head Cain
crushed was that of his brother Able. Little did they know that the prophecy was to be
understood spiritually, not literally, and the seed (Christ) that would crush the serpents head was
not to appear for thousands of years. All of the rest of the Bible unpacks that prophecy until the exciting climax in Revelation 12:9.
Those who insist on interpreting the prophecies only literally without the spiritual guidance
of the New Testament, will make the same mistakes.

2 Corinthians3:3 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

The symbolism of Jesus and the church was for the most part a mystery in the OT that is
only revealed in the NT but from OT Scriptures. The two on the road to Emmaus couldn't
see it until Jesus opened their eyes (Luke 24:31).
It was there all along.
They Just missed it.
Some times the OT writers themselves didn't even understand it like Daniel for example.
He was appalled by the vision, it was beyond understanding. Daniel 8:27

It is only understood in the light of Christ in the NT.
That is what Jesus taught to the two on the road to Emmaus:
And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself. Luke 24:27


The Old Testament is a giant ARROW POINTING TO CHRIST!
And that is why Paul could say:

For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. 2Corinthians 1:20

While it is true, there are dangers and pitfalls in looking for types and allegory, there is also a danger in not doing so. The Rabbi's of Jesus time did not, they took every thing literally, looking for a literal king that would build a literal kingdom and crush a literal Roman Empire, and they missed Christ. Let's not miss him the second time. Let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Furthermore, in terms of False Teachers it seems that those who make the same mistake that the Rabbi's of Christ's day made by refusing to make Jesus and His body (the church) be the center and focus of OT Scripture would fall into the category of False Teachers just as much as those who abuse allegory, types and spiritual application.

I think we are safest to let Jesus and the NT writers decide for us what is literal and what is to be understood spiritually, typologically or allegorically.
Follow the Lamb,
3am

nothin wrong with study as long as it does not become a source of pride.

Jesus left us with a simple truth.

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

No one prideful here but thanks for the warning. We will guard ourselves.

I would like to add one more thought on my previous post about allegory and typology.
I realize that I left the door open for a lot of questions. But I want to especially answer one.
Does this mean that there is no literal fulfillment to the prophecies? Absolutely Not!

While it is undeniable that the writer of Hebrews identiifies Mt. Zion and Jerusalem as a type of the church. And furthermore that we are already there, citizens of The Heavenly Jerusalem. (Heb 12:22-24). That does not mean that there will be no literal fulfillment in the future.

In Revelation 21, after the millennium John sees a New Heaven and a new earth.
John sees the New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God. T
he earth will be our home and we will live with Jesus forever.
This is what many scholars call indicative/ imperative or Already - Not Yet.
We are already in the New Jerusalem (spiritually) But Not Yet (physically).
Not until we literally stand on those golden streets, gather around the throne and sing praises to the Lamb forever. Then will the promises inaugurated in Christ will be consummated.
Only then will all of the promises that are partially fulfilled spiritually in Christ and his church be fulfilled literally.

As Paul said to Gentile believers in Galitia: "May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God" (Galatians 6:14-16).

See ya There!!!

3am

Greetings Stephen,
I am still anxiously waiting for your reply to my questions about your post concerning
False Teachers and "Replacement Theology"
It was post #18 and brought forward again with another request for a response by Cornelius, an administrator, in post number 28.
I have seen your response to other posts after this one, so I know that you have seen it.
You have made some serious charges against those who make a spiritual application to some
scriptures going as far as calliing them demons.

I gave you a number of Bible Passages, that challenge your position and point out
misleading statements.
In the light of such serious charges, it seems to me that good Biblical discussion
would be healthy to either back up what you are saying or to reveal some possible flaws.
Several appear look to you as an authoritative writer.
It seems to me they deserve a response.
I am looking forward to seeing your response soon.

In Christian Love
3am

"I will begin posting items on this subject of last day deceptions without identifying any particular denomination or source of professing Christianity. I have received an excellent resource from a post member and will display some of the ways that one can discern false teaching."

There are plenty here with pride myself included, this was not a warning, just a statement of balance. eloquence and knowledge does not make the preacher.

The gift comes from the Holy Spirit, it's a spiritual thing

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

www.newswithviews.com/Levant/nancy51.htm

EXECUTIVE ORDER 13397 - CHURCH AS GOVERNMENTAL AGENCY



Nancy Levant
July 25, 2006
NewsWithViews.com

The separation of church and state - gone with the stroke of a pen. As of March 7, 2006, our nation’s leader signed another Executive Order, which tied the Department of Homeland Security to our leader’s “faith-based” churches. Okay, all you non-profit churches out there – you now serve the federal government’s primary spying agency. That is now your primary function. You are now and officially an organized den of thieves.

I would feel sorry for the pastors, ministers, priests, and rabbis except for the fact that I just can’t and won’t. How stupid and positively corrupt can you possibly be to take money in exchange for manipulating your flocks of idiot sheep to the national slaughter? And will you also spy on your flocks and provide reports to your new master?

In exchange for money, have you agreed to pacify and organize your flocks in the event of a national emergency? You certainly have, for you have been ordered to do so. And have you been ordered to offer your buildings, your resources, and your labor forces called congregations to serve your newly declared administrator?

I try to come up with words to describe how I feel about this Executive Order and the churches that have “partnered” themselves to this system. The words don’t come minus the fact that the church has completely and irreversibly fallen to the lowest and darkest common denominator, which is the total betrayal of the souls of the faithful. I would pray for your forgiveness, but I don’t want to.

Nor do I want to write about this sickening topic. But, I appeal to Christian people to 1) ask your church leaders if they are “faith-based” funded, and 2) to leave those churches and start home-based churches with your friends and family members. Do not support Executive Ordered, Department of Homeland Security churches with your presence or your money. You are being manipulated and reported upon – guaranteed.

You are being told what to do when more “crisis” hits the nation, and will hit the nation, as all is now planned down to our “weather emergencies,” which are providing the training and relocation exercises for the real crisis to come – the one that permanently collapses Constitutional America.

The church needs to regroup and gather in homes, where faith is restored, private, and truth is real. Forget the church leadership. They are padding their pockets and socially re-engineering your mind with think tank religion and crisis management, and they’re getting paid to do so – much like the public schools and mass media.

Raise your churches in your homes. All you need is a Bible – one will do. Save yourselves and your souls and leave your new and improved church buildings, fancy organs, fundraisers, and colorful windows behind.

As in all Communist countries, the church will survive underground, so to speak, and with genuine prayer. And serve your Constitutional America. Don’t give up on freedom – even as it dissolves before your eyes. Be courageous in truth and gather together in truth.



Again and again, I strongly recommend that you contact A.C.E. – Americans for Constitutional Enforcement – at contactus@a4ce.org - and request their Information Packet. Work to preserve your unalienable rights. There is no other choice but to fall – much like the American church. And please remember that faith-based churches are now governmental agencies – just like public schools, mass media, and mass communications – nothing more and nothing less.



A.C.E. will help you, your family, and your neighbors to learn the truth about today’s America. What you don’t know is allowing for the total destruction of your rights and your individual freedom. What you don’t know is rapidly, rapidly destroying your country. Your continued ignorance is why we are falling. Please contact A.C.E. right now. May God bless the American people.



© 2006 Nancy Levant - All Rights Reserved


Nancy Levant is a life-long writer, a believer of God, country, Constitutional and individual rights. She resides in rural Southwestern Ohio. She has worked professionally with children since 1974 and is an ardent supporter of home schooling.

Nancy Levant has done radio and television interviews, has been a guest speaker in many venues including college campuses, schools, Indian reservations, human service organizations, and has been the president of a youth sports organization.

Ms. Levant just completed her new book "The Cultural Devastation of American Women: The Strange and Frightening Decline of the American Female." to be released May 2006. Equally, she is a writer for freedom and land rights issues and opposes the United Nation's Agenda 21 implementation in America.

..................................................benny

Amen!!

Battle of the True and False Prophets

God speaking through his prophet Jeremiah, said that he would send Israel to Babylonian captivity for 70 years because she refused to obey Him (Jer 25:5-11). He even wore a yoke to demonstrate the yoke of oppression.
Hannaiah and other false prophets said, that Jeremiah was wrong, God would restore Israel shortly.
Time proved that Jeremiah was right, Hannaiah was wrong.
What made Hannaiah a false prophet?
On the surface, it seems like it was simply a matter of his prophecy not coming to pass.
However, careful study reveals something much more fundamental.

This may sound shocking but bear with me and I will prove it.
If a prophet predicts something will happen, which does not happen,
that does not make him a false prophet.

The proof; Jonah said that in "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned (3:4)." That was a pretty straightforward prophecy.
However, “When God saw… how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened (v10).
Was Jonah a false prophet? Of course not. Why not? Because even though he didn't say the prophecy was conditional, it was. When the Ninevites repented, God did not do what he said he would do. Was God unfaithful to His word? Of course not.

Jonah, Jeremiah and all other true prophets realized the prophecies to Israel or any other nation were conditional. It was a fundamental truth. The punishment was prophesied because they disobeyed God.

“If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, 8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, 10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it (Jer 18:1-12).”

The False prophets were relying on their heritage and status as God’s people for peace.
They say “Peace, Peace, when there is no peace (Jer 6:14). They trust in “This is the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD, the temple of the LORD!" Jeremiah 7:3, 4.

The false prophets were relying on the fact the Israel was God’s holy nation, they had the temple and God promised them peace and “the LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you (Deut 28:7).” They failed to accept the fact that five times in that short passage of Deut 28:1-14 God said he would bless Israel “IF YOU OBEY MY COMMANDS.”

The false prophets failed to recognize that God also, in the same chapter promised that if they disobey his commands, he will curse them and scatter them among the nations of the earth (v64). They viewed God’s promises to Israel as unconditional.

The false prophets were no doubt aware of Isaiah’s prophecy that God would destroy the “yoke” of Assyria from the neck of Jerusalem “In that day” (Isa 10:27) and thus they promised deliverance for their own time. But they ignored the fact that in Isaiah’s day, king Hezekiah had repented of the sins of Israel (Isa 37:1).

A FALSE PROPHET WILL POINT TO AN EARLIER PROMISE THAT GOD MADE AND CONCLUDE THAT GOD MUST FULFILL THAT PROMISE BECAUSE HE SAID HE WOULD.
In so doing they ignore the conditional element to Israel’s prophesies. They applied God’s covenant promise of peace and blessing in an unconditional way to Israel’s future restoration ignoring that God had made genuine repentance a requirement for Israel’s regathering and restoration as a Nation under God.

John the Baptist issued a scahing rebuke to those who pointed to their Jewish heritage as though that obligated God to bless them (unconditionally) even if they did not repent for their sins.
"John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? 8 Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. (Luke 3:7, 8)

Modern Dispensationalism, (the pre-trib rapture, future 70the week, restoration of Israel as a nation in order for God to literally fulfill all OT promises) popularized by Hal Lindsey and Tim Lahaye,