The Bride... The 144,000.... The Gentiles
Revelations 7: 13 - 14 and one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? And whence came they?
The answer?
14. and I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest.
And he said to me..... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
This is another proof that the Church.... is in Heaven, not upon earth.... Why?
John does not recognize this group.
He knows the raptured Church in Heaven (Rev.4, verse 1), but not the ones on earth in this text.
These are Tribulation Saints, who have washed their robes and made them white, in the blood of the Lamb.
Please hear God once again; These are they that came out of the Great Tribulation..
That settles it and explains why John- who recognized the Church in Heaven- is in a fog concerning these individuals.
They are new brothers and sisters in Christ...... though unknown to John..
They have been saved during a different period of time.
A time when he and the church was already in heaven... And then this new group was presented.
The next scene is exciting!
Each group saved during different dispensations of time ......has different duties to perform.
The Church is the Bride of Christ and enjoys the 1,000 year Honeymoon upon earth (chapter 20 vs. 4). They reign as rulers kings and priests..... (1 Peter 2:9 and Rev 1:6).
The 144,000 serve as body guards of the Lamb and His Bride. ..... (chapter 14 vs. 4).
The Gentiles saved during the Tribulation Period will be Temple Servants, waiting on Christ and His Bride. They serve in the Glorious Temple ...
(described in Ezekiel... chapters 40 – 48) which is set up immediately after Russia- under the names of Gog,
Magog, Meshech, Tubal and Rosh- is destroyed (Ezekiel 38 and 39).
Russia would march, then Antichrist would be smashed and the Lord would return with His bride. At that time the millennial Temple is erected and the Gentiles serve.
Soon the people of God from all dispensations enjoy the presence of God.
Their days of suffering, heartache, and abuse by and ungodly world are finished.....
Tears are wiped way and every remembrance of past sorrow is obliterated from their minds.
Praise Jesus! Soon we shall all have our place in the Lord.
Note: Where are the Jews?
Chapter 7 the 144,000- this group cannot be the Church, for the church is already in Heaven. (chap. 4 vs. 1) Also the Church is not Jewish but composed of all races, peoples and tongues.
The 144,000 represent the Twelve Tribes of Israel.
Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Manasses, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph and Benjamin...
Jewish names .........head up Jewish Tribes in a Jewish Nation- Israel.
God Bless
Full Version: The Bride... The 144,000.... The Gentiles
Christian-Forum.net > Debates (NOT FOR THOSE EASILY OFFENDED!) > Evidence for the bible and creationism debates
Love123,
Consider:
The 24 elders are identifying themselves and the great multitude together as the Church in heaven. Every kindred, people, tongue, and nation would have to be a much greater group than just the 24 elders themselves. This group is made up of all saved living believers and the "dead in Christ" who are called out "harpazo" and are in heaven before and around the throne just before the judgments of chapter 8 begin.
Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
This is the great multitude of Church and one of the 24 asks John who they are. This is probably John asking himself, because he will be on of the 24 elders. John actually saw himself there in heaven when he was taken in the spirit from the first century into the future and to heaven to be shown what must take place during the 70th week. And he said you know ... then the elder answers his own question. They have come out (ek) "away from" the tribulation of the 70th week which starts in chapter 8.
Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12
Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out (ek) of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
The sealing of the 144,000 Israelites for spreading the Gospel on the earth. (see chapter 14) These are mortals, believers, and Jewish. The Lord keeps them on the earth for His purposes. They remain, unlike the 24 elders and the great multitude, but they will be protected from the effects of the tribulation. The sealing takes place before the judgments begin in chapter 8.
Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel
Chapters 8 and 9 (not listed here) include the sounding of the first 6 trumpets and corresponding judgments. These all sound early in the 70th week and are associated with Satan's coming to the earth. He will be allowed to conquer and then rule the earth for 1,260 days (42 months) during the last half of the 70th week. They include the burning of the "great city" of MBG, resultant economic collapse, destruction of 1/3 of commercial shipping in port, polution of the environment, darkness over 1/3 of the earth in the area of destruction, and the release of Satan's angelic hords and his beast (antichrist) who is Abaddon, king of the abyss angelics. The 7th trumpet will sound in the last half of the 70th week during the 42 month rule of the beast reign. This will trigger the 7 vials of the Lord's wrath against Satan's kingdom and those who follow his beast.
Rev 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
This is the condition of martyrdom that will exist during the 70th week. Those seen here are the tribulation saints. Those who will be come believers during the 70th week and they are killed for their faith in the Lord. Notice that they are under the alter and not around the throne in heaven like the 24 elders and the great multitude. They are different and are told to wait until the rest of tribulation saints are killed.
Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled
These same martyred believers are seen at the end of the 70th week and are noted as not having worshiped the beast or taken his mark. They are different than the great multitude in heaven before the 70th week started.
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
They experience the "first Ressurection" (the resurrection to life). This is a type of resurrection and not describe sequence or order of resurrection It is the dead who will experience the second type of resurrection ... the resurrection to destruction..
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Consider:
The 24 elders are identifying themselves and the great multitude together as the Church in heaven. Every kindred, people, tongue, and nation would have to be a much greater group than just the 24 elders themselves. This group is made up of all saved living believers and the "dead in Christ" who are called out "harpazo" and are in heaven before and around the throne just before the judgments of chapter 8 begin.
Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
This is the great multitude of Church and one of the 24 asks John who they are. This is probably John asking himself, because he will be on of the 24 elders. John actually saw himself there in heaven when he was taken in the spirit from the first century into the future and to heaven to be shown what must take place during the 70th week. And he said you know ... then the elder answers his own question. They have come out (ek) "away from" the tribulation of the 70th week which starts in chapter 8.
Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 7:10
And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
Rev 7:11
And all the angels stood round about the throne, and [about] the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 7:12
Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, [be] unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Rev 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
Rev 7:14
And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out (ek) of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
Rev 7:15
Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
Rev 7:16
They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
Rev 7:17
For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
The sealing of the 144,000 Israelites for spreading the Gospel on the earth. (see chapter 14) These are mortals, believers, and Jewish. The Lord keeps them on the earth for His purposes. They remain, unlike the 24 elders and the great multitude, but they will be protected from the effects of the tribulation. The sealing takes place before the judgments begin in chapter 8.
Rev 7:3
Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
Rev 7:4
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel
Chapters 8 and 9 (not listed here) include the sounding of the first 6 trumpets and corresponding judgments. These all sound early in the 70th week and are associated with Satan's coming to the earth. He will be allowed to conquer and then rule the earth for 1,260 days (42 months) during the last half of the 70th week. They include the burning of the "great city" of MBG, resultant economic collapse, destruction of 1/3 of commercial shipping in port, polution of the environment, darkness over 1/3 of the earth in the area of destruction, and the release of Satan's angelic hords and his beast (antichrist) who is Abaddon, king of the abyss angelics. The 7th trumpet will sound in the last half of the 70th week during the 42 month rule of the beast reign. This will trigger the 7 vials of the Lord's wrath against Satan's kingdom and those who follow his beast.
Rev 8:1
And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
Rev 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
Rev 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, [which came] with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
Rev 8:5
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast [it] into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Rev 8:6
And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
This is the condition of martyrdom that will exist during the 70th week. Those seen here are the tribulation saints. Those who will be come believers during the 70th week and they are killed for their faith in the Lord. Notice that they are under the alter and not around the throne in heaven like the 24 elders and the great multitude. They are different and are told to wait until the rest of tribulation saints are killed.
Rev 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled
These same martyred believers are seen at the end of the 70th week and are noted as not having worshiped the beast or taken his mark. They are different than the great multitude in heaven before the 70th week started.
Rev 20:4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
They experience the "first Ressurection" (the resurrection to life). This is a type of resurrection and not describe sequence or order of resurrection It is the dead who will experience the second type of resurrection ... the resurrection to destruction..
Rev 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
I guess l still just don't see how you can get a mulititude out of 24 elders.
You have to read it in? I'm not trying to be obstinate..I just don't know how you draw the conclusion?
You have to read it in? I'm not trying to be obstinate..I just don't know how you draw the conclusion?
If they show the elders as represenitive of the churches why did they show everybody standing there in a later vese of revelation? Why symbolic here and not there?
I believe Rev. 7:9-14 means the harvest of souls.
I believe it is now harvest time for the souls to come and
be made white as snow. Perhaps the fulfillment of people
that come to Christ.
This vast multitude from all races and nations is the harvest Christ envisioned
from his great commission (see Matthew 28:19). They are truly thankful,
worshiping God to show their appreciation for his great salvation. The white
garments worn by this innumerable crowd speak of their purity through the blood of Christ. By surrendering our lives to God and accepting God's forgiveness
in Jesus Christ, we can join this joyful throng of people wo have been saved by God's wonderful grace.
love,
rosie
I believe it is now harvest time for the souls to come and
be made white as snow. Perhaps the fulfillment of people
that come to Christ.
This vast multitude from all races and nations is the harvest Christ envisioned
from his great commission (see Matthew 28:19). They are truly thankful,
worshiping God to show their appreciation for his great salvation. The white
garments worn by this innumerable crowd speak of their purity through the blood of Christ. By surrendering our lives to God and accepting God's forgiveness
in Jesus Christ, we can join this joyful throng of people wo have been saved by God's wonderful grace.
love,
rosie
QUOTE
A. The Prologue: The Heavenly Court.
In this prologue to "the things which will be hereafter,"
two basic events take place: (1) John is allowed to see the
throne in heaven (4:1-11), and (2) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, opens
the sealed scroll (5:1-14).
With respect to the first event, it seems that the emphasis
of the throne of God is to encourage the readers_especially the
church_that God is faithful. This can be seen specifically in two
elements present: (1) In 4:3, God is described as having a
rainbow around His throne. This would have caused the reader to
remember the reminder of God's picture of faithfulness in Genesis
9; and (2), if the twenty-four elders represent the church, then
it gives confidence that they will not be on earth during the
tribulation.32 This encourages the readers, as they are about to
hear of great judgment, to look at the throne and its occupant
and see themselves there.
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2166In this prologue to "the things which will be hereafter,"
two basic events take place: (1) John is allowed to see the
throne in heaven (4:1-11), and (2) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, opens
the sealed scroll (5:1-14).
With respect to the first event, it seems that the emphasis
of the throne of God is to encourage the readers_especially the
church_that God is faithful. This can be seen specifically in two
elements present: (1) In 4:3, God is described as having a
rainbow around His throne. This would have caused the reader to
remember the reminder of God's picture of faithfulness in Genesis
9; and (2), if the twenty-four elders represent the church, then
it gives confidence that they will not be on earth during the
tribulation.32 This encourages the readers, as they are about to
hear of great judgment, to look at the throne and its occupant
and see themselves there.
Here is this thought... but then again it's all just "if".
I've been googling the 24 elders and you should see what's out there. Talk about laugh out loud... 
Miki,
"I guess l still just don't see how you can get a mulititude out of 24 elders.
You have to read it in? I'm not trying to be obstinate..I just don't know how you draw the conclusion?"
>This is exactly my point. The 24 elders are the ones who speak and have their positions just adjacent to the throne. There are just 24 of them (most likely the prominent leaders of the great multitude). When they say "us" they are speaking for a much greater group obviously. The 24 elders do not symbolize the Church by themselves.
>The 24 elders are identifying themselves and the great multitude together as the Church in heaven. Every kindred, people, tongue, and nation would have to be a much greater group than just the 24 elders by themselves.
Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders >fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.
>I also Google and I know what is out there on this subject. The choices are generally that the 24 elders are angelics, they symbolize the entire Church by themselves, or they are non-descript worshipers around the throne and should not be defined literally. You have found other "off the wall" stuff as well. I would suggest that they are literal and are separate, but a part of all of the members of the Church which also includes the great multitude. They are both literal and there in heaven in the future at the same time.
>When John goes to heaven (he goes there to view the future setting in heaven during the 70th week), and into the future, from his prison cell in the first century (he is caught up to heaven and taken into the future), both the 24 elders and the rest of the Church are present. John saw this scene in advance and he will actually go there again at the time of the end (the 70th week) which is still future from our day ..... but we are close. He will be raised as one "dead in Christ" .... with all of the others .... and caught up together with living believers when the Lord calls the Church home before the beginning of the Hour of trial which is record in chapter 8.
"I guess l still just don't see how you can get a mulititude out of 24 elders.
You have to read it in? I'm not trying to be obstinate..I just don't know how you draw the conclusion?"
>This is exactly my point. The 24 elders are the ones who speak and have their positions just adjacent to the throne. There are just 24 of them (most likely the prominent leaders of the great multitude). When they say "us" they are speaking for a much greater group obviously. The 24 elders do not symbolize the Church by themselves.
>The 24 elders are identifying themselves and the great multitude together as the Church in heaven. Every kindred, people, tongue, and nation would have to be a much greater group than just the 24 elders by themselves.
Rev 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders >fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
Rev 5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Rev 5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands.
>I also Google and I know what is out there on this subject. The choices are generally that the 24 elders are angelics, they symbolize the entire Church by themselves, or they are non-descript worshipers around the throne and should not be defined literally. You have found other "off the wall" stuff as well. I would suggest that they are literal and are separate, but a part of all of the members of the Church which also includes the great multitude. They are both literal and there in heaven in the future at the same time.
>When John goes to heaven (he goes there to view the future setting in heaven during the 70th week), and into the future, from his prison cell in the first century (he is caught up to heaven and taken into the future), both the 24 elders and the rest of the Church are present. John saw this scene in advance and he will actually go there again at the time of the end (the 70th week) which is still future from our day ..... but we are close. He will be raised as one "dead in Christ" .... with all of the others .... and caught up together with living believers when the Lord calls the Church home before the beginning of the Hour of trial which is record in chapter 8.
Rosie,
"I believe Rev. 7:9-14 means the harvest of souls.
I believe it is now harvest time for the souls to come and
be made white as snow. Perhaps the fulfillment of people
that come to Christ.
This vast multitude from all races and nations is the harvest Christ envisioned
from his great commission (see Matthew 28:19). They are truly thankful,
worshiping God to show their appreciation for his great salvation. The white
garments worn by this innumerable crowd speak of their purity through the blood of Christ. By surrendering our lives to God and accepting God's forgiveness
in Jesus Christ, we can join this joyful throng of people wo have been saved by God's wonderful grace."
I also believe exactly what you are saying here. Praise the Lord. !!!
"I believe Rev. 7:9-14 means the harvest of souls.
I believe it is now harvest time for the souls to come and
be made white as snow. Perhaps the fulfillment of people
that come to Christ.
This vast multitude from all races and nations is the harvest Christ envisioned
from his great commission (see Matthew 28:19). They are truly thankful,
worshiping God to show their appreciation for his great salvation. The white
garments worn by this innumerable crowd speak of their purity through the blood of Christ. By surrendering our lives to God and accepting God's forgiveness
in Jesus Christ, we can join this joyful throng of people wo have been saved by God's wonderful grace."
I also believe exactly what you are saying here. Praise the Lord. !!!
[quote=Stephen,Jul 25 2006, 05:30 PM]
Love123,
Consider:
The 24 elders are identifying themselves and the great multitude together as the Church in heaven. Every kindred, people, tongue, and nation would have to be a much greater group than just the 24 elders themselves. This group is made up of all saved living believers and the "dead in Christ" who are called out "harpazo" and are in heaven before and around the throne just before the judgments of chapter 8 begin.
Agreed....
As I represent the same in a different view.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Revelation 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
The debate....Who are they.........the four and twenty elders?
Ok so they are not angels. For elders always depict members of the human race.
What members?
The redeemed.
They are also in resurrection bodies, as is the Lord, for they sit down. An immaterial spirit cannot sit.
A material body is necessary in order to sit on a material throne.
Christ possess s such a new glorified body...(see Luke 24:39),
And when we Jesus we shall be like him (John 3:2).
The elders are also clothed in white raiment.
One could not put a coat on a spirit very readily, for it would continually fall to the floor!
The Book of Revelation cannot be spiritualized. These are real people!
In fact, since the Judgment Seat took place immediately after the Come up hither of Rev. 4 verse 1, these individuals are already wearing the crowns which they will place at the Masters feet in verse 11.
Who are these twenty- four groups?
Some believe they represent the twenty –four groups or orders within the Levitical priesthood. This, in turn represents all believers in Christ for through Him High Priest, every Christian is a member to
ROYAL PRIESTHOOD (1Peter 2:9).
Others believe the twenty four elders represent the twelve tribes of Israel and including the twelve apostles for a grand total of 24.
In other other words they say the four and twenty elders represent Gods people of all ages.
This is a good possibility sine Rev.21 describes the New Jerusalem the names of the twelve tribes inscribed on the gates and the names of twelve apostles found upon the twelve foundations (see verses 12-14).
Can you believe, The twenty four elders represent the Children of God in the presence of the Lord before the horrible tribulation begins in Chap.6.
Revelation 5:8 the twenty four elders.... Representing all of Gods saved people, share in this glorious moment.
The praise is so spectacular that the redeemed break out in song.
What a heavenly choir- the largest ever assembled! Listen to them!
As the 144,000 represent the twelve tribes of Israel...
So the four and twenty four elders represent the Children of God.
Love123,
Consider:
The 24 elders are identifying themselves and the great multitude together as the Church in heaven. Every kindred, people, tongue, and nation would have to be a much greater group than just the 24 elders themselves. This group is made up of all saved living believers and the "dead in Christ" who are called out "harpazo" and are in heaven before and around the throne just before the judgments of chapter 8 begin.
Agreed....
As I represent the same in a different view.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Revelation 4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
The debate....Who are they.........the four and twenty elders?
Ok so they are not angels. For elders always depict members of the human race.
What members?
The redeemed.
They are also in resurrection bodies, as is the Lord, for they sit down. An immaterial spirit cannot sit.
A material body is necessary in order to sit on a material throne.
Christ possess s such a new glorified body...(see Luke 24:39),
And when we Jesus we shall be like him (John 3:2).
The elders are also clothed in white raiment.
One could not put a coat on a spirit very readily, for it would continually fall to the floor!
The Book of Revelation cannot be spiritualized. These are real people!
In fact, since the Judgment Seat took place immediately after the Come up hither of Rev. 4 verse 1, these individuals are already wearing the crowns which they will place at the Masters feet in verse 11.
Who are these twenty- four groups?
Some believe they represent the twenty –four groups or orders within the Levitical priesthood. This, in turn represents all believers in Christ for through Him High Priest, every Christian is a member to
ROYAL PRIESTHOOD (1Peter 2:9).
Others believe the twenty four elders represent the twelve tribes of Israel and including the twelve apostles for a grand total of 24.
In other other words they say the four and twenty elders represent Gods people of all ages.
This is a good possibility sine Rev.21 describes the New Jerusalem the names of the twelve tribes inscribed on the gates and the names of twelve apostles found upon the twelve foundations (see verses 12-14).
Can you believe, The twenty four elders represent the Children of God in the presence of the Lord before the horrible tribulation begins in Chap.6.
Revelation 5:8 the twenty four elders.... Representing all of Gods saved people, share in this glorious moment.
The praise is so spectacular that the redeemed break out in song.
What a heavenly choir- the largest ever assembled! Listen to them!
As the 144,000 represent the twelve tribes of Israel...
So the four and twenty four elders represent the Children of God.
Miki,
"The Prologue: The Heavenly Court.
In this prologue to "the things which will be hereafter,"
two basic events take place: (1) John is allowed to see the
throne in heaven (4:1-11), and (2) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, opens
the sealed scroll (5:1-14).
With respect to the first event, it seems that the emphasis
of the throne of God is to encourage the readers_especially the
church_that God is faithful. This can be seen specifically in two
elements present: (1) In 4:3, God is described as having a
rainbow around His throne. This would have caused the reader to
remember the reminder of God's picture of faithfulness in Genesis
9; and (2), if the twenty-four elders represent the church, then
it gives confidence that they will not be on earth during the
tribulation.32 This encourages the readers, as they are about to
hear of great judgment, to look at the throne and its occupant
and see themselves there"
>This is good, but I would add the numbers of the great multitude to the total. The 24 elders do represent the Church, but they are also part of the greater number seen in heaven.
"The Prologue: The Heavenly Court.
In this prologue to "the things which will be hereafter,"
two basic events take place: (1) John is allowed to see the
throne in heaven (4:1-11), and (2) Jesus Christ, the Lamb, opens
the sealed scroll (5:1-14).
With respect to the first event, it seems that the emphasis
of the throne of God is to encourage the readers_especially the
church_that God is faithful. This can be seen specifically in two
elements present: (1) In 4:3, God is described as having a
rainbow around His throne. This would have caused the reader to
remember the reminder of God's picture of faithfulness in Genesis
9; and (2), if the twenty-four elders represent the church, then
it gives confidence that they will not be on earth during the
tribulation.32 This encourages the readers, as they are about to
hear of great judgment, to look at the throne and its occupant
and see themselves there"
>This is good, but I would add the numbers of the great multitude to the total. The 24 elders do represent the Church, but they are also part of the greater number seen in heaven.
QUOTE(Miki @ Jul 25 2006, 07:12 PM)
I've been googling the 24 elders and you should see what's out there. Talk about laugh out loud...
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Hi Miki ... bet you didn't see this on google!
I believe the 24 elders (with the new song) is in reference to the Hebrew "Old" testament.
Gentiles consider the OT as consisting of 39 books ... but to the Jew it is 24.
"old" testament = "elder" testament = 24 elders
I can hear you giggling Miki !
Love123,
"Can you believe, The twenty four elders represent the Children of God in the presence of the Lord before the horrible tribulation begins in Chap.6."
>Yes I can. They do.
"Can you believe, The twenty four elders represent the Children of God in the presence of the Lord before the horrible tribulation begins in Chap.6."
>Yes I can. They do.
Hi Calvin..long time no here. Long time no hear. I'm not giggling. I'm trying to think it through. I need more supporting evidence.
Love 123...We get a new body that can fly and walk through walls but you can also touch and sit down and eat with. (Jesus had it) So that part of yours doesn't work.
If this isn't those out of the rapture and they are clothed in white the only alternative is that they are OT people that are in Paradise but l don't think that's where the throne is?
How come they literally show the ones with blood under the altar and literally show the great multitude in in ch 7 but it's symbolic in ch 5:9...
And why do they have the vials with the prayers of the saints and not the angels?
They were singing a new song must have many scriptures attached to it. it must be the clue that binds?
It could be that ordinary people don't get to be at the unsealing? Like the elders meetings in the church...
just kidding..
Love 123...We get a new body that can fly and walk through walls but you can also touch and sit down and eat with. (Jesus had it) So that part of yours doesn't work.
If this isn't those out of the rapture and they are clothed in white the only alternative is that they are OT people that are in Paradise but l don't think that's where the throne is?
How come they literally show the ones with blood under the altar and literally show the great multitude in in ch 7 but it's symbolic in ch 5:9...
And why do they have the vials with the prayers of the saints and not the angels?
They were singing a new song must have many scriptures attached to it. it must be the clue that binds?
It could be that ordinary people don't get to be at the unsealing? Like the elders meetings in the church...
just kidding..
Miki, regarding the 24 elders being the 24 books of the Hebrew Bible, you said you would need supporting evidence.
Easier said than done, but check out my post of July 23, "What Temple Will God Reside In?" (Bible Prophecy section)
For the moment, please move out of a literal mode of interpretation and enter into your "spiritual" mode. The 24 elders being the 24 books of the Hebrew OT may make some sense to you "if" you believe that chapters 21 and 22 of Revelation are describing a Bible, and not our future place of abode.
If a Bible is being described, then that "great city" may be in reference to the New Testament's gospel of grace.
You said that the 24 elders were singing a new song and that this must have many scriptures attached to it, and that it must be the "clue that binds". I like your play on word ... the clue (glue) that binds.
There is no doubt that if we understood the purpose or meaning of the "new song" of Psalm 144, the 4 Zoa, the 24 elders and the 144 thousands, this definitely would help us in our understanding of some biblical mysteries.
Revelation 21 and 22 ... "heaven" or His Word ?
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: (our NT's covenant of grace) for the first heaven and the first earth (OT) were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (inspired) prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:1-2.
I believe this is describing the Bible of each believer. God "dwells" in His Word, and believers dwell in His Word.
And he carried me away IN THE SPIRIT to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Rev 21:10-11.
And had a wall great and high (144 cubits is certainly not very high for a "city" that is a cube 1500 miles high!) and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Rev 21:12.
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21:14.
Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God ... perhaps we should also ... a city with 12 gates of pearls (wisdom) a city that had no need of the sun; neither of the moon to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14.
Through the gates of it's pearls of wisdom ... in the city of our God.
ccc
Easier said than done, but check out my post of July 23, "What Temple Will God Reside In?" (Bible Prophecy section)
For the moment, please move out of a literal mode of interpretation and enter into your "spiritual" mode. The 24 elders being the 24 books of the Hebrew OT may make some sense to you "if" you believe that chapters 21 and 22 of Revelation are describing a Bible, and not our future place of abode.
If a Bible is being described, then that "great city" may be in reference to the New Testament's gospel of grace.
You said that the 24 elders were singing a new song and that this must have many scriptures attached to it, and that it must be the "clue that binds". I like your play on word ... the clue (glue) that binds.
There is no doubt that if we understood the purpose or meaning of the "new song" of Psalm 144, the 4 Zoa, the 24 elders and the 144 thousands, this definitely would help us in our understanding of some biblical mysteries.
Revelation 21 and 22 ... "heaven" or His Word ?
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: (our NT's covenant of grace) for the first heaven and the first earth (OT) were passed away; and there was no more sea.
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (inspired) prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. Rev 21:1-2.
I believe this is describing the Bible of each believer. God "dwells" in His Word, and believers dwell in His Word.
And he carried me away IN THE SPIRIT to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. Rev 21:10-11.
And had a wall great and high (144 cubits is certainly not very high for a "city" that is a cube 1500 miles high!) and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. Rev 21:12.
And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. Rev 21:14.
Abraham looked for a city whose builder and maker is God ... perhaps we should also ... a city with 12 gates of pearls (wisdom) a city that had no need of the sun; neither of the moon to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Rev 21:23.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev 22:14.
Through the gates of it's pearls of wisdom ... in the city of our God.
ccc
Thanks Calvin but it doesn't seem to click with me...You know what l mean?
Parts do...but it still remains mysterious.
Stephen said something l like...There shouldn't be a fog...It's Revelation after all.
Maybe not for him and that's good but God will open my eyes to it when he's ready.
Parts do...but it still remains mysterious.
Stephen said something l like...There shouldn't be a fog...It's Revelation after all.
Maybe not for him and that's good but God will open my eyes to it when he's ready.
Miki,
"Stephen said something l like...There shouldn't be a fog...It's Revelation after all.
Maybe not for him and that's good but God will open my eyes to it when he's ready"
Yes He will.
"Stephen said something l like...There shouldn't be a fog...It's Revelation after all.
Maybe not for him and that's good but God will open my eyes to it when he's ready"
Yes He will.
"Thanks Calvin but it doesn't seem to click with me ... you know what I mean?"
Yes Miki, I definitely do. At times I am so heavenly minded ... that I am no earthly good !
Yes Miki, I definitely do. At times I am so heavenly minded ... that I am no earthly good !
QUOTE(calvin @ Jul 28 2006, 12:53 PM)
"Thanks Calvin but it doesn't seem to click with me ... you know what I mean?"
Yes Miki, I definitely do. At times I am so heavenly minded ... that I am no earthly good !
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Yes Miki, I definitely do. At times I am so heavenly minded ... that I am no earthly good !
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Maybe earthy stuff is not good for us either Calvin.
I know what you mean.
I am not earthly good many days.
Unless those days be shortened there will not be any saved.
Every year there are periods of shorter and longer days.
When you see the fields white unto harvest know the time is soon.
Cotton fields are white until the bowl is harvested and that is every year.
Does anybody see anything that has not taken place to indicate the end?
What is meant by 144,000 adorned in white robes?
Compared to the 6.8 billion, that seems to be about right when you realize there was only 8 people from the ark and 78 people taken out of Egypt in the Old Testament.
'Let My people go.'
Every year there are periods of shorter and longer days.
When you see the fields white unto harvest know the time is soon.
Cotton fields are white until the bowl is harvested and that is every year.
Does anybody see anything that has not taken place to indicate the end?
What is meant by 144,000 adorned in white robes?
Compared to the 6.8 billion, that seems to be about right when you realize there was only 8 people from the ark and 78 people taken out of Egypt in the Old Testament.
'Let My people go.'
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