One of Ron Wyatt's 'discoveries' is the alleged site of the crossing of the 'Red' Sea by the Israelites. One of his arguments was that there had to be a clearing large enough to contain the 2-3 million Israelites and others involved in the Exodus group. Leaving aside the impossibility of there being that many in the Exodus group, I believe that the Bible itself makes Ron's claim of the crossing at Aqabah impossible.

The problem began when the authors of the Septuagint rendered Yam Suph as ‘Red Sea’, and since early English translations were largely dependent on the Septuagint, the error has continued to exist. Many Bibles do indeed to continue to translate Yam Suph as Red Sea. However, the 1962 edition of the Torah published by the Jewish Publication Society of America, corrected the translation of Yam Suph to read ‘Sea of Reeds’

This presents Wyatt’s scenario with a problem because:

Initially, the Red Sea can be ruled out, both because the Red Sea has no reeds, and because the lengthy route along the Gulf of Suez would have enabled the pursuing Egyptians to overtake the fleeing Hebrews. ( Eakin: 379)

So, if the Red Sea has no reeds, and the Bible insists that the Israelites crossed a 'sea of reeds', then Aqabah is definitely ruled out on this fact alone. But there is more information from the Bible itself that rules out Aqabah.

Numbers 33:-10:

Here are the stages in the journey of the Israelites when they came out of Egypt by divisions under the leadership of Moses and Aaron. At the LORD's command Moses recorded the stages in their journey. This is their journey by stages:

The Israelites set out from Rameses on the fifteenth day of the first month, the day after the Passover. They marched out boldly in full view of all the Egyptians, who were burying all their firstborn, whom the LORD had struck down among them; for the LORD had brought judgment on their gods.

The Israelites left Rameses and camped at Succoth.

They left Succoth and camped at Etham, on the edge of the desert.

They left Etham, turned back to Pi Hahiroth, to the east of Baal Zephon, and camped near Migdol.

They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, and when they had traveled for three days in the Desert of Etham, they camped at Marah.

They left Marah and went to Elim, where there were twelve springs and seventy palm trees, and they camped there.

They left Elim and camped by the Red Sea.

There are two seas mentioned in this extract, and only one of them has the Israelites passing through it. They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, they then travelled for three days before they camped at Marah, they left Marah and then went to Elim, it is only after they leave Elim that they arrive at the Red Sea, long after they have passed through the sea.

Geographically, the main objection to equating the sea of the Exodus with the Red Sea is that those places named in the Exodus itinerary prior to arrival at the 'yam sup' would appear to be located in the eastern delta region of Egypt (Batto: 28).

Surely this information by itself is enough to falsify the Wyatt proposal?

But, if not, and it is a fair bet that it isn’t enough, we can turn to comparative anthropology to further negate Wyatt’s claims.

We know that modern Bedouins moving from camp to camp can only cover about six miles a day (Beitzel: 91). These groups are nothing near the size of the Exodus group but we can ignore this for the moment.

Let’s go back to the Numbers 33 reference and see how many days passed before the Israelites ’passed through the sea’.

Now Moses was commanded to record all the stages of the Exodus groups and he begins with the first camp at Succoth, so that is one day, day two they move to Etham, day three they camp at Migdol, day four they pass through the sea. Now we only have four days from their leaving Egypt until they cross the sea, a maximum of 24 miles, and that is without taking into consideration that a huge number of 2-3 million people complete with livestock may not have covered that distance, AND not taking into consideration that the Exodus group turned back to Pi Hahiroth:

In Exod. 14:1-2 the Israelites are commanded to turn back and encamp within Egypt, the geographical picture is confirmed by the itinerary in Num. 33:1-49. In verse 6, Israel camped at Etham on the edge of the wilderness only then when Israel crosses the sea does she enter the wilderness (Childs: 409).

Now ‘turned back’ does not need to mean a complete 180 degree about turn, it can mean any turn off their course, but this is academic because even if the Exodus group did march in a straight line towards Aqabah, they would have a way to go because Aqabah is about 120 miles from Egypt as the crow flies (Noth: 108)

So, once again, we have concrete proof that the Aqabah crossing is a ludicrous location for the sea crossing, firstly because it has no reeds, and secondly because it is too far away from Egypt to be harmonized with the biblical record.

Perhaps it could be argued that no time is given between the encampments before the group passed through the sea, but this is negated by verse 8 where we are told that ”They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, and when they had travelled for three days in the Desert of Etham, they camped at Marah..

The interesting thing about this reference is that we are told when the Israelites did not camp, the reference clearly states that they travelled for three days before camping at Marah. Moses is told to record all the stages of the journey, he does so and also records when they did not camp, in this case three days. So the claim that there could be any period of time between the first three camps is dismissed.

Further support that the sea crossing has to be fairly near Egypt (or even in Egypt) can be found in Exodus 14:5-9:
When the king of Egypt was told that the people had fled, Pharaoh and his officials changed their minds about them and said, "What have we done? We have let the Israelites go and have lost their services!" So he had his chariot made ready and took his army with him. He took six hundred of the best chariots, along with all the other chariots of Egypt, with officers over all of them. The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly. The Egyptians—all Pharaoh's horses and chariots, horsemen and troops pursued the Israelites and overtook them as they camped by the sea near Pi Hahiroth, opposite Baal Zephon.

So, as soon as the Pharaoh had heard that the people had fled he went in pursuit, and apparently caught up with the group quite quickly near Pi Hahiroth, close to Baal Zephon.
Now, although Pi Hahiroth is unknown from other sources and therefore its location is still unknown, we do know for certain where Baal-Zephon is located.

From Martin Noth (op. cit. p110: The place which we can locate most certainly is 'Baal-Zephon', by which a sanctuary is clearly meant. This sanctuary of Baal-Zephon, on whose site in the Hellenistic-Roman period a Zues Kasios was worshipped, lay on a low hill in the now uninhabited place 'mahammadije' on the western end of the coastal beach belt which separates the lagoon of what in classical times was called the Sirbonian Sea, the present 'sebhat berdawil', from the Mediterranean Sea. The region concerned is thus near to the Mediterranean coast east of the mouths of the Nile. If then in the closing clause of 14:2, which is obviously rather surprising but not necessarily secondary because of its address in the second person plural, it is expressly stressed that Israel is to camp 'in front of 'Baal-Zephon', the scene is meant to be the neighbourhood of the western shore of the Sirbonian Sea. The further explanation 'between Migdol and the sea' also points to this. Migdol, which occurs as early as the Egyptian sources, lay on the usual route from the delta to Palestine, not far north-east of the Egyptian border fortress 'Tr' and is probably to be located at the present 'tell el-her' whereas in this context the 'sea' must almost certainly be understood to be the Mediterranean Sea,

In the verse following the quote of Exodus 14:5-9, we can see that the crossing of the sea takes place, culminating at Exodus 14:29-30:

But the Israelites went through the sea on dry ground, with a wall of water on their right and on their left. That day the LORD saved Israel from the hands of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians lying dead on the shore.

So, the Israelites have crossed the sea, and the Egyptians are dead, and it did not happen 120 miles away from Egypt.

One very interesting piece of ancient evidence that supports the sea crossing being in Egypt can be found in Papyrus Anastasi III, 2, 11-12. This text informs us that ” The papyrus-marshes come to it with papyrus reeds and the Waters of Horus with rushes”[ (Gardiner: 74) This is referring to an area close to the city of Rameses, the exact place where the Israelites were supposed to have helped build in Exodus 1:11. Further support is the possibility that ”etymologically speaking ’suph’ is a loan word from the Egyptian ’twf(y)’ which means ‘papyrus/reeds’ (Ward: 340)
I think the evidence is extremely conclusive. The crossing could not be at Aqabah because it has no reeds, it is too far away from Egypt, and we have the biblical texts themselves that suggest the crossing was near or in Egypt, which is supported by a strong piece of external evidence.

I conclude from the available biblical and non biblical information that the crossing of the sea at Aqabah has nothing to do with the biblical account of the Exodus.

Bibliography:

Ashley, T. R. (1993). The book of Numbers. Grand Rapids, Mich., William B. Eerdmans.

Batto, B. F., The Reed Sea: Requiescat in Pace Journal of Biblical Literature 102.

Beitzel. B J (1985) The Moody Atlas of Bible Lands. Chicago. Moody Press.

Childs, B. S., A Traditio-Historical Study of the Reed Sea Tradition Vetus Testamentum 20

Eakin, E.F. (1967) The Reed Sea and Baalism JBL 86, 378-384.

Gardiner, A.H.S. The Geography of the Exodus Paris, E. Champion.

Gray, G. B. (1903) A critical and exegetical commentary on Numbers, Edinburgh : T. & T. Clark

Hughes, J. (1990). Secrets of the times : myth and history in Biblical chronology. Sheffield, JSOT Press.


Noth, M. (1962) Exodus, SCM Press London.

http://bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm

Posting a bare link is hardly condusive to a discussion, I mean I could just reply with another link, so let's discuss what you think is relevent in your link.

I hope this request is okay.

Thanks.

Brian.

I tend to agree with JHamner's link, the conclusive evidence was what was inscribed on the rock that is by the RED SEA, the chariot wheels, human remains etc...unless someone can prove that these findings were fake? Besides, how do you part the waters in the REED SEA? The REED SEA is a marshland... just my thoughts...

Brain...

The link contains a LOT of information. It would take several posts to put all the info here... I thought it might be more simple to just post the link.

I do agree with the findings on this site. The photos of the wheels are quite compelling- I have actually seen the special on television (TBN? is where I saw it maybe) that covers the exibition researching the Exodus. The delighted crew is thrilled when they see the photographs come up on their monitors as the underwater machine taking pictures scowers through the sea floor.

Brian, you overestimate my ability to debate. I am simply not an academic kinda person (if you want that... talk to my twin brother). I am more practical, kinda crazy, and passionate. Not really the research type!

Well, thanks for your honesty, I wish more people were like you.

Brian.

The thing with inscriptions is that they could be made at any time, the link says that these inscriptions were found hundreds of years ago, one or two maybe 150 years ago. But one report says "In another book, Niebuhr remarked "the wonderful preservation of the inscriptions upon this soft sandstone, exposed as they have been to the air and weather during the lapse of so many ages. On some of the stones they are quite perfect""

Now, does this mean they were well preserved or fairly recently carved?

Do we know what condition these 'quite perfect' descriptions are in now, if we did and they were eroded any then we would know that they were fake.


This is a problem because the archaeology did not have the same resources as we have today, so it would be difficult to date.

But, using the Bible as a guide, and this map, can you see the problem with the Red Sea site of Wyatt's?



If we look at the Bible itinerary, we are told that the Israelites' first camp was a Succoth, which is pplainly marked on the map. Then they camped at Etham at the edge of the desert, now this has to be 6 miles or less from Succoth because of the size and nature of the group. The next day they then turned back into Egypt, to Pi Hahiroth, next to Baal Zephon, and camped near Migdol. Migdol just means watchtower or fortress, a fortified town or outpost.

Now, look at the map and see where Succoth is, then look at Aqabah, it is over one hundred miles away! In Numbers 33 we are told that the Israelites:

.. left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert, and when they had traveled for three days in the Desert of Etham, they camped at Marah.

They clearly passed through the sea before they entered the desert, this simply isn't possible if the crossing was at Aqabah, they would enter the desert first then cross the sea. Also, the sea crossing has to be pretty near or actually in Egypt because the Israelites havent had enough time to reach Aqabah.

Re the chariot wheels, they havent been proven to be anything yet, just like everything else Wyatt found, they are either missing or unconfirmed.

Anyway, as far as archaeology goes, chariot wheels in the Red Sea only mean that some time in the past chariot wheels found their way into the Red Sea, it is a non-sequitur to say these are the wheels of the chariots mentioned in the Bible. It is rank amatuerism to claim that this verifies the biblical account of the exodus, but that's what you get when amatuers set out to prove anything, they produce work that doesn't stand up to even the slightest bit scrutiny.


Brian.

Brain, are you an archeologist? and you are calling someone with a proven record of finds amature? Seems to me that you have your horse after the cart, not before it. Can you even tell me the story of the exodus? Where was Moses at...what drove him to do the will of GOD? Do you believe in GOD? What about the 10 plagues...can you explain the last plague on Israel scientifically and specifically? Do you have a shread of evidence to disprove anything that is Biblical?

Yes.



There isn't a proven record of finds, this is the problem, Wyatt was not an archaeologist, he was a nurse with no archaeological training.

Wyatt even claimed to have some of Jesus' blood that he took from the top of the Ark of the Covenant. However, the pics he took of the Ark didnt develop, and the blood of Jesus has gone missing form the lab, pretty convenient.




My M.th by research focussed a great deal on the Exodus and 'Conquest' of Canaan.




I think Moses was a folk tale character, but by the biblical version, it would either be Pi-Ramese or Pithom. Unless Exodus 1:11 is anachronistic, which it needs to be to maintain the integrity of 1 Kings 6:1, in which case it would be Avaris. I think we can rule out Pithom as 'Pithom' was not used as a city name until the Saite period, about 800 years after Moses 'died'.



Not any more.




The ten plagues are fictional.



Yes.

I am puzzled by your line of questioning given that it is I who is promoting the biblical text over that of a man who failed a lie detector test.

Anyway, you believe in God, you believe in the Bible, does the Bible say that the Israelites passed through the sea before or after they entered the wilderness (desert)?

Brian.

Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt: 18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.

There goes your theory... have you read the story in the Bible. It is quite interesting....

Here is Exodus 13 in context:

Exodus 13:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exodus 13:2 Sanctify unto me all the firstborn, whatsoever openeth the womb among the children of Israel, both of man and of beast: it is mine.

Exodus 13:3 And Moses said unto the people, Remember this day, in which ye came out from Egypt, out of the house of bondage; for by strength of hand the LORD brought you out from this place: there shall no leavened bread be eaten.

Exodus 13:4 This day came ye out in the month Abib.

Exodus 13:5 And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, which he sware unto thy fathers to give thee, a land flowing with milk and honey, that thou shalt keep this service in this month.

Exodus 13:6 Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, and in the seventh day shall be a feast to the LORD.

Exodus 13:7 Unleavened bread shall be eaten seven days; and there shall no leavened bread be seen with thee, neither shall there be leaven seen with thee in all thy quarters.

Exodus 13:8 And thou shalt show thy son in that day, saying, This is done because of that which the LORD did unto me when I came forth out of Egypt.

Exodus 13:9 And it shall be for a sign unto thee upon thine hand, and for a memorial between thine eyes, that the LORD's law may be in thy mouth: for with a strong hand hath the LORD brought thee out of Egypt.

Exodus 13:10 Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year.

Exodus 13:11 And it shall be when the LORD shall bring thee into the land of the Canaanites, as he sware unto thee and to thy fathers, and shall give it thee,

Exodus 13:12 That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males shall be the LORD's.

Exodus 13:13 And every firstling of an --- thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.

Exodus 13:14 And it shall be when thy son asketh thee in time to come, saying, What is this? that thou shalt say unto him, By strength of hand the LORD brought us out from Egypt, from the house of bondage:

Exodus 13:15 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh would hardly let us go, that the LORD slew all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both the firstborn of man, and the firstborn of beast: therefore I sacrifice to the LORD all that openeth the matrix, being males; but all the firstborn of my children I redeem.

Exodus 13:16 And it shall be for a token upon thine hand, and for frontlets between thine eyes: for by strength of hand the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt.

Exodus 13:17 And it came to pass, when Pharaoh had let the people go, that God led them not through the way of the land of the Philistines, although that was near; for God said, Lest peradventure the people repent when they see war, and they return to Egypt:

Exodus 13:18 But God led the people about, through the way of the wilderness of the Red sea: and the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.

Exodus 13:19 And Moses took the bones of Joseph with him: for he had straitly sworn the children of Israel, saying, God will surely visit you; and ye shall carry up my bones away hence with you.

Exodus 13:20 And they took their journey from Succoth, and encamped in Etham, in the edge of the wilderness.

Exodus 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Exodus 13:22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.


You see they were not led the way that you are saying...but by the Wildeness, where, by the Red Sea!

My OP informs the reader that 'Red Sea' is a mistranslation of Yam Suph, which is best translated as 'Reed Sea', or 'Sea of Reeds', most Bible's have a footnote explaining this.

Here for example in the NIV:

18 So God led the people around by the desert road toward the Red Sea. [a] The Israelites went up out of Egypt armed for battle.

the footnote explains Hebrew Yam Suph; that is, Sea of Reeds

Problem is, the Red Sea has no reeds because it is a salt water sea.

And I have read the story the unis here don't just hand advanced degrees out

Maybe you could read my OP again?

Brian.

Exodus 14:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exodus 14:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they turn and encamp before Pihahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baalzephon: before it shall ye encamp by the sea.

Exodus 14:3 For Pharaoh will say of the children of Israel, They are entangled in the land, the wilderness hath shut them in.

Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honored upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD. And they did so.

Exodus 14:5 And it was told the king of Egypt that the people fled: and the heart of Pharaoh and of his servants was turned against the people, and they said, Why have we done this, that we have let Israel go from serving us?

Exodus 14:6 And he made ready his chariot, and took his people with him:

Exodus 14:7 And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.

Exodus 14:8 And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.

Exodus 14:9 But the Egyptians pursued after them, all the horses and chariots of Pharaoh, and his horsemen, and his army, and overtook them encamping by the sea, beside Pihahiroth, before Baalzephon.

Exodus 14:10 And when Pharaoh drew nigh, the children of Israel lifted up their eyes, and, behold, the Egyptians marched after them; and they were sore afraid: and the children of Israel cried out unto the LORD.

Exodus 14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?

Exodus 14:12 Is not this the word that we did tell thee in Egypt, saying, Let us alone, that we may serve the Egyptians? For it had been better for us to serve the Egyptians, than that we should die in the wilderness.

Exodus 14:13 And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will show to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.

Exodus 14:14 The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.

Exodus 14:15 And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:

Exodus 14:16 But lift thou up thy rod, and stretch out thine hand over the sea, and divide it: and the children of Israel shall go on dry ground through the midst of the sea.

Exodus 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honor upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Exodus 14:18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I have gotten me honor upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen.

Exodus 14:19 And the angel of God, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Exodus 14:20 And it came between the camp of the Egyptians and the camp of Israel; and it was a cloud and darkness to them, but it gave light by night to these: so that the one came not near the other all the night.

Exodus 14:21 And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Exodus 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Exodus 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Exodus 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Exodus 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

Exodus 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

Exodus 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

Exodus 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Exodus 14:29 But the children of Israel walked upon dry land in the midst of the sea; and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Exodus 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day out of the hand of the Egyptians; and Israel saw the Egyptians dead upon the sea shore.

Exodus 14:31 And Israel saw that great work which the LORD did upon the Egyptians: and the people feared the LORD, and believed the LORD, and his servant Moses.


A lot of sea mentioned in these verses also. Funny thing is some of these cities have never been located...and the map that you have show the Children of Israel in the Wilderness. It doesn't show the crossing of the sea.

Here is a map of the area...

http://www.coral.noaa.gov/reef_maps/volume2/egypt.jpg

Okay now in Chapter 3...

Exodus 3:1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.

Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Exodus 3:3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.

Exodus 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exodus 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet,
for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.

Exodus 3:6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Exodus 3:7 And the LORD said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;

Exodus 3:8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.

Exodus 3:9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

Exodus 3:10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

Exodus 3:11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?

Exodus 3:12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.

Exodus 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?

Exodus 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, the LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Exodus 3:16 Go, and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Jacob, appeared unto me, saying, I have surely visited you, and seen that which is done to you in Egypt:

Exodus 3:17 And I have said, I will bring you up out of the affliction of Egypt unto the land of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, unto a land flowing with milk and honey.

Exodus 3:18 And they shall hearken to thy voice: and thou shalt come, thou and the elders of Israel, unto the king of Egypt, and ye shall say unto him, The LORD God of the Hebrews hath met with us: and now let us go, we beseech thee, three days' journey into the wilderness, that we may sacrifice to the LORD our God.

Exodus 3:19 And I am sure that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand.

Exodus 3:20 And I will stretch out my hand, and smite Egypt with all my wonders which I will do in the midst thereof: and after that he will let you go.

Exodus 3:21 And I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty.

Exodus 3:22 But every woman shall borrow of her neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.


Here you have where Moses would travel from...He was in the land of Midian which is by the Gulf of Aqaba in Arabia. He was standing on Mount Horeb, which is Mount Sinai, with a flock of sheep on the backside of the desert. Mount Sinai is not in the Sinai Peninsula at all, but across the Red Sea in the land of Midian. It would make sense that Moses would cross the Red Sea at the Gulf of Aqaba. Since he has to travel to Eygypt first, it seem plausable that he also traveled the same route back again.

also, Red Sea or Sea of Reeds?

Since reeds only grow in fresh water, scholars have looked for centuries for a fresh water lake the Israelites could have crossed and of course none exists.
Could a more accurate word for the Hebrew phrase "Yam Suph" be "seaweed" instead of reeds? Could this be referring to the part of the present Red Sea known as the Gulf of Aqaba --where these chariot wheels were found?

The name Red Sea probably stems from its proximity to Edom, the land occupied by the descendants of Esau, whose name in Hebrew means Red.

In 1 Kings 9:26 we have a location that can be identified today to make it simple for us to tell where the Red Sea is. It was a port where King Solomon built and maintained a fleet of merchant ships. It was called Ezion Geber and you can still see its remains today near the resort city of Elat at the Northern end of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red sea.


Kings 9:26 And king Solomon made a navy of ships in Eziongeber, which is beside Eloth, on the shore of the Red sea, in the land of Edom.

You see, Moses was not still in Egypt when crossing the Red Sea, he was in the southern most part of Egypt . He also knew the land of the Midians. He had lived with them for many years. He knew the points that was best to cross the sea also.

Moses was in familar territory both in Egypt and in the land of the Midinaites.

The map I posted is from a Wyatt site, it shows the crossing at Aqabah, at the right hand side of the picture, and Aqabah is over one hundred miles away from Succoth.

We do know where Baal-Zephon is, I'll quote Noth again:

From Martin Noth (op. cit. p110: The place which we can locate most certainly is 'Baal-Zephon', by which a sanctuary is clearly meant. This sanctuary of Baal-Zephon, on whose site in the Hellenistic-Roman period a Zues Kasios was worshipped, lay on a low hill in the now uninhabited place 'mahammadije' on the western end of the coastal beach belt which separates the lagoon of what in classical times was called the Sirbonian Sea, the present 'sebhat berdawil', from the Mediterranean Sea. The region concerned is thus near to the Mediterranean coast east of the mouths of the Nile. If then in the closing clause of 14:2, which is obviously rather surprising but not necessarily secondary because of its address in the second person plural, it is expressly stressed that Israel is to camp 'in front of 'Baal-Zephon', the scene is meant to be the neighbourhood of the western shore of the Sirbonian Sea. The further explanation 'between Migdol and the sea' also points to this. Migdol, which occurs as early as the Egyptian sources, lay on the usual route from the delta to Palestine, not far north-east of the Egyptian border fortress 'Tr' and is probably to be located at the present 'tell el-her' whereas in this context the 'sea' must almost certainly be understood to be the Mediterranean Sea,

Baal Zephon, near PiHahiroth is close to the mouths (cataracts) of the Nile, and the Israelites pass through the sea immediately after they leave Baal Zephon, according to Numbers 33 They left Pi Hahiroth and passed through the sea into the desert

It is impossible for the crossing to be at Aqabah, the Egyptians would have caught them for sure.

The translation of Yam Suph as Reed Sea actually helped the early bible archaeologists, such as William Albright, to harmonise the biblical version of the exodus with external evidence. The Red Sea caused problems because even the tip of it was considered too far away from Pi Rameses, but Reed Sea opened up the possiblity of a sea being closer to Pi Rameses that would make the story plausible.

And it is extremely interesting for this approach that Papyrus Anastasi III, 2, 11-12 informs us that ” The papyrus-marshes come to it with papyrus reeds and the Waters of Horus with rushes” . This is referring to an area close to the city of Rameses, the exact place where the Israelites were supposed to have helped build in Exodus 1:11. Further support is the possibility that ”etymologically speaking ’suph’ is a loan word from the Egyptian ’twf(y)’ which means ‘papyrus/reeds’ (Ward: 340)

This is a far more reasonable scenario that Wyatt's. (IMO)

Brian.

There is just so much information and ancient documentations out there! Who knew? This is just facinating! I have never really studied this Red Sea Crossing in such detail before. It really is amazing just how much information is available. I also want to thank Cornelius for helping me with some information here, such as the Reed Sea and Red Sea thing! I had no idea about the Reeds being fresh water only. I want to thank you, Brain, for opening up this study. Isn't it interesting to see just how the BIBLE is infallable WORD of GOD. I am going to take a closer look at all the information out there and I hope that you are also learning about this as well. What is so interesting is how this information all aligns with the WORD that was given, what about 4000 years ago. Knowing that some of the cities mentioned in the Bible can not be located by even archealogists to this day! I didn't know that. But you see it is the not knowing that makes this an exciting study for me! The hints that are given scripturally helps me to peice together what happened and I have an idea of where the crossing took place now. The maps and understanding where Moses was traveling from and too, you know gives us a lot of information. Also, knowing that he knew the layout of the land! WOW! Thanks again!

Moses was with the rest of the Exodus group that left Pi Rameses, the 'House of Rameses'.

He was at Rameses when he was telling the Pharaoh to let his people go. Exodus 1:11 tells us that the Israelites helped build Rameses and Pithom. It also tells us in Exodus 12:37a The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth.

The chapter you refer to is when Moses was in hiding for killing an Egyptian, but he leaves Midian to come to Pi-Rameses to confront the pharaoh.

Regarding 'Seaweed' and 'Reeds'.

The only possible in context ‘seaweed’ reference for yam suph is Jonah chapter 2:3-5?

KJV For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.

The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
‘Weeds were wrapped…’ is usually translated as ‘(sea) weeds were wrapped around….’ however this is wholly incorrect.

First problem, if a plant was involved it would have to be some kind of vegetation that is found in the depths of the sea, as this is where Jonah is supposed to be, the ‘weeds’ here would NOT be the reeds from the marshy areas along the banks (Batto, page 32, see post one for bibliographical details). There is no other reference in the entire Hebrew Bible where sup has been claimed as ‘seaweed’.

Secondly, the image of Jonah being tangled up in seaweed is blatantly out of place when the imagery of the text is examined. All the other images the deep/abyss (tehom),[i] floods, (more accurately ‘river’ [i]nahar), Sheol, Underworld etc. all concern the mythical realm of chaos. Jonah’s word’s here are a thanksgiving hymn, compare it with Psalm 18, where similar imagery is presented.

Read in context then, Jonah’s ‘seaweed’ episode, linked to the imagery of non-existence and it parallelism with the mythic waters of chaos, the sup here should really be s-o-p, derived from the Semitic root sup (Batto page 34). Jonah’s sop means [i]‘to come to an end’, so sop which has also been used as ‘end’, ‘edge’, ‘border’, ‘destruction’ and ‘extinction’, leads to the confident conclusion that sup was a widely known term for the mythical waters of the Sea of Chaos.

The ‘sup that was ‘bound’ around Jonah’s head is a symbol of impending death, which is also found by the motif of the binding cords of death and sheol, found in psalm 18:5-6: The cords of Death compassed me, and the floods of Belial assailed me. The cords of Sheol surrounded me; the snares of Death confronted me. .

Jonah’s image of death as a binding of the head may derive from funerary customs of shrouding the body for burial. In reality, Jonah’s ‘seaweed’ is not a reference to any physical ‘weed’; it is entirely inconsistent with the rest of Jonah’s thanksgiving hymn to suggest it was.

Brian.

According to Books/Chapters of Antiquities of the Jews by Josephushus

Antiquities of the Jews
Book II
Containing The Interval Of Two Hundred And Twenty Years.
From The Death Of Isaac To The Exodus Out Of Egypt.

Chapter XV
How The Hebrews Under The Conduct Of Moses Left Egypt..


http://www.biblestudy.org/bibleref/antjews/ajb02c15.html

According to his works they did travel south..through the wilderness of the Red Sea.

I find this a very interesting subject Brian. My uncle knew Ron and my father has meet Ron. I for one am not going to debate you about this. You are of course entitled to your own opinion on this subject.

Since you mentioned the Ark of the Convenant and the Blood found on the Mercy Seat this is all I am going to say.

God is a keeper of His word: In fact His Word tells us the Jesus is the same yesterday, that He is today and will be the same tomorrow. Heb. 13:8
Since Jesus is God made in the flesh, that makes them One. They are the same no matter what day it is.

If God makes/made a Covenant (promise) with His people He is not going to change His way nor His mind. He will not be the one breaking that promise to the people. It will be the people who change NOT God. Why am I saying all that? To say all this....

God made a way for the Jews to atone for sin and that was to build the Tabernacle. This is of course before Jesus came and did His work on the cross. Now, in this Tabernacle only the High Priest could enter in and atone for the people's sins. How did the High Priest atone for the sins of the people? Let's use Aaron, the first High Priest and Moses brother.

Aaron came near with the blood of sacrifice and SPRINKLED it before and ON the MERCY SEAT. The Mercy Seat was God's Throne. Just beneath the Mercy Seat and lying within the Ark were the tables of the law, signigying that righteousness is the foundation of God's Throne. If a sinner were to approach this Throne they would die. Why? For them it would be a Throne of Judgment. (Of course there is an entire part of this Tabernacle I have left out) This is the part of which I am speaking on.

Now, if this is the way God set it up for the atonement of sins WHY would God change His ways on the most important day for all of us? HE WOULD NOT! He is the same and His ways are the same. Yes, you can change the mind of God in circumstance, but not in a set promise or procedure HE has set up. Jesus Christ became the Most High Priest, and your going to truly believe that His precious Blood was just spilt onto the ground and made nul and void? No way!

When the Blood of Jesus flowed it had to come near and be sprinkled on the Mercy Seat. The Ark of the Covenant had to be under the ground where the cross was. When the earthquake happened it split the ground allowing Christ's Blood to flow down and make that atonement for sins for all ONCE and for all...Heb. 10...
If this did not take place, then the Word and God is a liar AND THAT JUST AIN'T SO~!
The atonement for sins were made once and for all. It is barbaric to think that Christ's Blood just flowed out onto the barren ground and did nothing. His Blood had to flow and to reach the Mercy Seat to make this atonement.

It amazes me that some people find it difficult to believe that God's word is alive and fulfills itself, it can't return void. To have Christ's Blood just spill out onto the ground and do nothing but lay there would be void. It would have done nothing. You must pray and allow God to reveal these things to you Brian. You are quoting a man, Noth. Did God open Noth's word up to you for it to become life unto you? When you read Noth did revelation pour into your spirit and bring life unto your bones? Did I take the word of Ron? NO! I studied the scriptures that are God breathed and the Lord revealed these things to me. Did Ron's work give me a starting point to research this? Yes it did. Do I believe Ron found what he claims? Yes I do.

There is much more that I could have said, but I am not. These things can only come by way of revelation from the Most High God.

Peace to you.

An interesting link Tigger, and one that I can use in another debate so thanks.

I really don't see anything there to contradict my opening post, it says thet camped by Baal-zephon on the third day, then crossed the sea. I kow it says Red Sea, but if we replace Red Sea with Reed Sea then the bible account makes much more sense, and we do not need to twist any text.

Now, there is no way that a nomadic group can walk over 35 miles a day for three days, which is what it would take for the crossing to be at Aqabah. We know from modern nomadic groups that 6 miles is the max per day.

Does 35 miles per day make sense to you? I think the pharaoh's armies would have caught up with them long before they had covered 3 or 4 miles.

One part that is interesting is the claim that contradicst the Bible.
this information:

but two hundred and fifteen years only after Jacob removed into Egypt.

Is contrary to Exodus 12:40 KJV

40Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years.

But, regarding Moses travelling south, Succoth is south of Pi-Rameses, but the Bible does say they turned back from Etham, although turned bakc doesnt necessarily mean a 180 degree turn.

I just don't see any way to have the crossing at Aqabah. But I am open to examining it more.

Brian.

Remember that they are in the widlerness of the Red Sea...that is the penesula that you see in the map betwee the two arbutaries of water. It also has some rough terrain, that would have made it difficult for chariots to pursue the Israelites. Actually they were probably faster by foot in some areas. This is interesting...If you look at the map that you posted you can see that the Aqabah is where they would have crossed. At that time it was also called the Red Sea.

Also remember that they crossed through the sea BEFORE they entered the wilderness, that is exactly what the Bible says. Moses was charged to record all of the camp sites, and he did just that, and the Bible claims they went through the sea and then into the wilderness.



Then it would also be difficult for the Exodus group to travel as well then. Remember there was supposed ot be 2-3 million Israelites, as well as a mixed group, add to that cattle, carts, and whatever else then even soldiers on foot would catch them very quickly.



Even the children, sheep, cows, and elderly people?



This is where Wyatt claims they crossed, but it means wlaking over 35 miles a day for 3 days if it is to fit in with the Bible, in fact there is no way to fit it in with the biblical account. 35 miles per day is almost 6 times the average distance covered by modern nomads, who travel in much smaller groups.

The thing is, we know where Baal-Zephon is, it is near the mouths of the Nile, and the Bible claims they crossed the sea right after leaving that area.




But, without reeds, and thus unbiblical.

Brian.

Actually Psalm 106:9 Red sea in Hebrew says "weed" not "reed" So sea of weed.

In 1 Kings 9:26 we have a location that can be identified today to make it simple for us to tell where the Red Sea is. It was a port where King Solomon built and maintained a fleet of merchant ships. It was called Ezion Geber and you can still see its remains today near the resort city of Elat at the Northern end of the Gulf of Aqaba on the Red sea. http://bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm


If you look in the Hebrew you will see again, this is called the See of Weed (not Reed) in 1 Kings 9:26

Brain are you saying that they crossed the sea twice? If you look closely at the map that you posted...they went accross the land. The Penensula is known as the wildreness of the Red Sea. Just as stated in the Bible. They traveled south because of the rough terrain which would bring them down one side of the penesula and then travel back up the other side. We also know that there were mountains behind them. This is where the Bible lets us know about where they are. Look at the terrain maps of this area. They probably did not go all the way up as shown in your map, but crossed at the best point. They had the sea before them, and the mountains were behind them, and as the desert had shut them in, Exodus 14:1-4. They also had to travel south of the land of the Philistines as recorded in Exodus. Where would they cross? Somewhere in the mid section of the Aqabah.

I am by no means an expert but if I were motivated by the fact that I was going to be sliced up with a sword how motivated would I be to travel 35 miles? Horrific death is quite a motivation.

K.D.

I have not really studied the "where" of it, but for the believers here (no offence Brian) I know that God needed them in a "trapped" position. First to lure the Egyptians and also to put the Israelites in a position where only a miracle could save them. They needed to see His power before going into the wilderness.
OK, that was just a side thought...I will leave you to your discussion...
I think it is a real interesting thread
C

You may be able to walk/jog 35 miles a day for three days, but how plausible is it that an 80 year old lady could cover the equivelant of 4 marathons in 3 days?

What about a small child, a heavily pregnant woman, a disabled person, is it at all possible?

Also, remember that you would have to travel a lot faster than a horse drawn chariot! It just isn't possible.

In situations like this we have to turn to comparative anthropology, and CA informs us that nomadic groups are fortunate if they can travel 6 miles a day. This falsifies Wyatt's hypothesis. The Sea of Reeds can be anywhere, thus it supports the biblical account if the Red Sea is discounted.

Brian.

Brian,

I don't know if you are still watching this thread.

While I don't specifically support Wyatt's findings, I have a bit to add to this debate.

First, in dealing with the chariots:

As a matter of practicality, one has to consider the logistics of activating, assembling, and fielding a 600 chariot force. This is at least 1200 men, 1200 horses, and approximately a week's provisions for both men and stock. Even considering that they were on their home ground, and that they had hate in their eye, one would think it would be a monumental task to assemble such a force in three days... Notwithstanding diminished performance due to the effects of the plagues and the provisioning of the Israelites..

Furthermore, to move quickly for any long period of time, they would have to stage an exchange system for horses. Otherwise, they could not sustain movement above a trot for very long at all without killing the horses. If they spared their horses, and camped at night, their progress would be substantially lower than you seem to assume.

Secondly, while your proposed average speed of six miles per day for the Israelites is probably acceptable as a rule, I believe it to be on the low side:

One must consider the meaning of the Passover and the Feast of the Unleavened Bread, which was to be played out in it's primary function on this occasion. These folks were ready to go, and they knew they must make all haste. There was time to plan for children and elderly. Considering a "double-time" march mentality and the fact that their camps were little more than rest stops (eat and run, not allowing the time for bread to rise), one must consider a reasonable number for a day-and-a-night forced march, rather than a normal "day's pace".

Yet another point, While I don't outright reject your position that these folks were sedentary, a bit more credit must be given. These were people used to working hard and their lives were on the line. One would also consider it likely that there was no lack of experienced wagoneers and drovers, as these jobs were a normal part of the lifestyle. It is quite predictable that they would be very well equipped and provisioned, as they had their pick of the Egyptian wares.

The herds would be the most likely anchor on them. The sheep or oxen-driven wagons would likely set the speed and the rest stops more than the humans, cattle, dromedaries, and etc.

Lastly, one must consider (at least peripherally) the seven days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread:

It would seem their time of danger (their time of hurrying) ended with the death of the Egyptian Charioteers at the crossing of which-ever sea one infers. This would imply a seven day passage to the sea rather than the three days alloted by the common wisdom. I mention this in passing- I am not highly enamored with the idea, as it brings with it the thought that it is highly improbable that the Israelites could sustain a forced march (day-and-night) for seven days... Though similar feats have been accomplished by military organizations (without herds, and with staging of supply).

That all being said, it would be hard to argue the site of the crossing as it is very specific to "Pi-hahiroth, between Migdol and the sea, over against Baal-zephon". One would have to consider all three sites to be incorrect and look for them elsewhere.

-Bruce

Well now I feel silly. Having recently re-read Wyatt's claim, I realize that he does in fact dispute the locations of Pi-hahiroth and Baal-zephon and speculates on Migdol. No one is really disputing Succoth.

From my previous post, and in defense of Wyatt's claim (for the argument), If one considers Wyatt's locations, supposes a 7 day time frame for the run to the sea, assumes something like a 20 mile a day or better travel speed for the Isreali multitude, and allows that the Egyptians started out 3 days later (for time to assemble), this whole thing appears "doable" (on rather forgiving numbers at the least).

If the Israelis only wrote down the places that they "camped" and not the rest-stops where they basically fed and fled, the only real argument is the location.

Has Wyatt ever assembled an argument against the presently accepted cities of Pi-hahiroth and Baal-zephon, other than his obvious discounting of them?

How valid are the claims of the current Pi-hahiroth and Baal-zephon? Can they be vigorously defended?

-Bruce