Recently someone posted a response about how the Gospel doesn't stand or fall with the cross represented at Mt. Soledad, San Diego. His comment, I felt, was general to any symbolic representation of the cross, and it got me to wonder "what is the real depth and meaning to the cross? Is it more than a symbol? Does it matter if the cross at Mt. Soledad were to come down?" Personally, I am glad that it has endured so far.

Rather than respond directly I felt moved to post this thread as a study to this hypothesis; is the Gospel independent of a symbol that is the cross?

As with any study I have posted I always entreat upon the Lord a prayer for guidance and understanding. Lord, I pray your Holy Spirit will grant wisdom and inspire a sincere understanding to the meaning of the cross. Let this be a a good thread that honors your name, in Jesus' name, Amen.

I am led to start with Numbers 21:9

Numbers 21:9
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

In this instance what Moses had done was to clearly create an icon, a symbol out of material, at the Lord's instruction. Yet this symbol, being immaterial, imparted the Lord's power to save those who had looked upon it, and for those who did not died. This is very compelling to me to believe the symbol of the cross has a "mystical" connection to the Lord; his presence being around it for it inspires one to look upon the cross and see it more than just a crucifix. It is the symbol of the resurrection and the life of Jesus Christ.

Now, why did the Lord choose a serpent to hang on a pole? This was a symbol, according to the bible, that Moses did fashion and that it literally saved people from dying after being bitten by the snakes that were in the vally they travelled through. Today, that symbol is often represented with Christ fastened on the crucifix. So, could God have told Moses to fashion a man on a pole and it would have had the same effect? No. The Lord told Moses to fashion a serpent on a pole, why a serpent then, and why Christ on the crucifix today?

Your comments are welcomed and please any referencing scriptures will be very helpful to this discussion.

HB, Jesus became sin for us on the cross. Here , Moses is looking forward to the Crucifixion. The serpent, the symbol of sin from the garden, Jesus became that on the cross. By looking at Him, we have healing, deliverance and salvation.
If we take our eyes off of Him, we die.

Last time I checked the cross was vacant. The one who made the cross significant is currently at the right hand of the Father. I suspect many were killed by crucifiction but not much is written about them, nor do I think the cross would be symbolic by their death. We are temples of the Holy Spirit and the cross has no significance other than a form of execution and that one who hung from a tree was cursed, He became a curse for us.


Act 17:22 And Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus, and said, Ye men of Athens, in all things, I perceive that ye are very religious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed along, and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. What therefore ye worship in ignorance, this I set forth unto you.
Act 17:24 The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 neither is he served by men's hands, as though he needed anything, seeing he himself giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 and he made of one every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed seasons, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 that they should seek God, if haply they might feel after him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us:
Act 17:28 for in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain even of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Being then the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and device of man.
Act 17:30 The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent:
Act 17:31 inasmuch as he hath appointed a day in which he will judge the world in righteousness by the man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.


How many christians are currently worshiping in ignorance?

or worshiping an unknown god?


Salvation is about a relationship, a relationship which was restored by Jesus Christ, one of many things Jesus is a eternal high priest, constantly making intersession for us.

These are all good comments. C, I love how you explained not to take your eyes off of Christ even though one may look upon the cross, and RTK your post explains it well that when you keep your eyes fixed upon Christ is that not like keeping your relationship with Christ?

...Interesting, is the cross vacant? A few weeks back I was struck by a picture Shekel had posted on one of his codes, which showed Moses with the staff holding the serpent on it. It inspired me to dwell more upon the cross and it's meaning.

When you look at the picture I had posted, the stain glass window, does it not look like the serpent is hung up on the cross? Does it not look that the serpent is trapped by the cross? It's coiled about the cross but it doesn't look as if it can get away.

What do you all think?

Thank you HB for the thread and thank you Mr. C for the reason it was a snake...that makes sense to me now and I had always wondered about it.

Oh, I knew sin is the snake but I always figured the cross with Jesus and to place the snake there....I was confused, but the confusion has lifted.

Jesus took, for that moment in time, all the sins of the world upon Himself and they were crucified with Him. All those who look to Him accept that power over sin....the power to never sin again as long as Jesus is within our sight. But we take our sights off Him and then the power over sin is lost. The snake IS sin and it means that it was killed with Him for us. Praise the wonderful name of Jesus.

I do have a special place in my heart for the object of the cross itself. I used to not; I felt it was an instrument of torture and paramount to wearing the make of the gun that killed my mother around my neck. Not only tacky but, in the case of our Lord, it seemed blasphamous.

It took years for the Lord to show me that it was pride not to accept it with dignity and grace. To accept that the tree was grown from the beginning of time from a tiny seed just to have Him nailed against it. Not to accept it was to turn away from the severity of sin and the hugeness of salvation. To simply accept Him and not the horror He endured on that cross was to dilute or shake off completely the glaring difference between Lord and man. It keeps one humble, to the infinate degree, to not only know that one has been saved by another....but that the degree of punishement was so severe, was known before accepting it, and that it should have been me.

I do not look at it with even any of the "loves" defined by all the Greek divisions of the word. The cruel punishment I remember when I see it reminds me of the emensity of the debt I owe. We ought never to loose that reminder. The cross is what I deserved and he took it.

leia

I am glad for the inspiration you felt, Leia. May the Holy Spirit deepen your understanding and faith even more.

Here's the kicker, and I'll just say it. The only time the cross was truely ever vacant was before Christ was crucified. There was nothing there and so the cross was meaning less. But when Christ was crucified, sin was drawn onto Christ as a great serpent and it had wrapped himself around our savior. Sin was drawn to Christ because our Lord was sinless and every man must unwillingly bear the burden of sin for that was our inheritance. And the serpent tried to enter Christ to soil him with sin so as to make certain his death, but when Christ finally died sin failed to enter our saviour onto the last of our Lord's breath, and his body was taken down.

But lo and behold! The serpent is trapped, and no longer free to roam amongst man to burden itself unwillingly onto man. In the place of our savior the serpent now hangs on the cross trapped never to escape again!

In the mean while, Christ is resurrected. The grave could not hold him because our Lord is without sin and it's wages could not be collected from him.

At the end of time on the day of judgement, the cross bearing the serpent will be cast into the lake of fire, and that is how sin will be destroyed forever.

Now you understand the meaning of what Moses had done and of the meaning of the cross.
Amen.

This is how doctrines of men begin. Very creative though HB.



1Pe 5:6 Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time:
1Pe 5:7 Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you.
1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.
1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.
1Pe 5:11 To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Hi RTK. Yes, the doctrine of men, that comes from men has an aire of vainity. It's how you can tell it's false. Man takes the word of God, strives to master it, cite it, quote it and interpret it all the while thinking he now knows it "I spend years reading the bible, studying every word and phrase. I have schooling and learning and a degree that qualifies me." Then they insult God believing they own the word from their long and laborious studies.

Who else did labor long thinking their works would please God but their works was vanity? Cain did, and of course he rose up to slew his brother Abel.

This happens when anyone accuses another of false doctrine. The spirit of man's vanity seeths and swells inside him for he thinks he speaks with God's voice.

So, thousands of years ago men did lay their hands on the Gospel and in their doctrine put Christ back on the cross to try and keep him there. Why? To hide from those that a serpent now hangs on the cross, for Christ was taken down and was resurrected.

You yourself even said it that one who hangs on the tree is cursed. It is one thing to be cursed by evil and another to be cursed by good. Evil that curses carries no authority and it is a lie, but the good that curses is a fearful and frightening thing; it is the authority to banish forever from the sight of what is good. Although Christ was cursed by evil he was never cursed by good, so how can anyone who is good claim Christ was cursed? Only evil that is the serpent can claim that. Being that the serpent is trapped, he thus hides on the crucifix by putting Christ back on the cross and showing this to people. Look around you and see any church that displays our saviour on the cross. Not only do they make a graven image of Christ, but in doing so, they insist he is still there hanging on the cross! Yes RTK, that is the doctrine of men, and it began over a thousand years ago after Christ was taken down from the cross and resurrected.

As we tap dance off into the sunset. thanks HB your a hoot!

I still love your bear avatar

The cross was once a tree.

Consider, Jesus- the tree of Life..........
A tree has roots................deep roots......

As we come to the cross............sinners........saved through blood of the cross, as Christ permitted us to crucify Him........that we may have eternal life with Him.
We become a part of Christ roots ............

Also...............in order to produce good fruit............roots need nourishment.........
Spiritual nourishment... the food of God.

We also represent trees bearing fruit...... by their fruits you shall know them.


God Bless

I was told the story of how one of the great anthems of the church was written.

The author started to ponder the cross. He looked up on the alter and saw a shiny brass cross and noticed it hanging around women's necks as ornamental jewelry.

Then he went and compared this contemporary version to what is written in the Word. The cross was a tree, rough, heavy, with splinters. It was bloody and nails dug into it holding up our Savior. There He suffocated and bled and died. And then the veil was torn.

Old Rugged Cross by George Bennard

On a hill far away stood an old rugged cross,
The emblem of suffering and shame;
And I love that old cross where the dearest and best
For a world of lost sinners was slain.

So I’ll cherish the old rugged cross,
Till my trophies at last I lay down;
I will cling to the old rugged cross,
And exchange it some day for a crown.

O that old rugged cross, so despised by the world,
Has a wondrous attraction for me;
For the dear Lamb of God left His glory above
To bear it to dark Calvary.

In that old rugged cross, stained with blood so divine,
A wondrous beauty I see,
For ’twas on that old cross Jesus suffered and died,
To pardon and sanctify me.

To the old rugged cross I will ever be true;
Its shame and reproach gladly bear;
Then He’ll call me some day to my home far away,
Where His glory forever I’ll share.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

Gen 5:29 And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed.

Deu 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
This is interesting it seems hanging from a tree was not a form of execution but additional punishment after death.





So what you are saying HB is Christ really was not cursed because He was cursed by evil? If this is true then our salvation is null and void.

Christ took on the sins of the world, He became sin, He was cursed by His Father, He was abandond, He was forsaken and allowed to die, He was humiliated by death.

HB you conjered up a hum dinger here You were thinking out loud right?





So everytime paul did this, he was doing the same thing which cain did to his brother?

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1Ti 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1Ti 1:6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
1Ti 1:7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
1Ti 1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
1Ti 1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
1Ti 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1Ti 1:17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Ti 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Now HB this is in no reference to you, I am making a point here we are to challange "false doctrine" or doctrine that is not sound.



Actually the word of God says this.

Dear RTK,

I am willing to believe Jesus Christ was not cursed by God, for I do not believe God had to curse Christ for our sake to bring salvation.

All the other aspects remain true; that Christ borne our sins on the cross when he died, he was taken down from the cross and he then was resurrected. So what remains is sin borne on the cross and that is what is under a curse to this day.

If Christ was ever under a curse from God then how was Christ ever able to come away from such a curse? How does the curse then just go away? Was Christ forgiven? That would imply Christ sinned so as to be forgiven by God, so that cannot be. Christ never sinned yet he borne our sins.

When God makes a curse it is a mighty thing; he brings asunder what is good and what is evil and banishes evil never for it to return. What is under God's curse is afixed under his wrath. How then was Christ ever under God's curse for then he would be under his wrath to this day? But the Lord sits at the right side God.

Christ was cursed by men and despite this he called upon God to forgive us! How powerful is that? How graceful then is Jesus Christ! So, if Christ were under God's curse at that moment how and why should God listen to a cursed man asking God to forgive those that hung him on the cross? God would not have listen to him, then our salvation would be null and void. But, Christ was beloved by the father always and even in the moment the Lord borne our sins. And when Christ asked God to forgive us "for we know not what we do," God did forgive us. That is not something God grants to a thing he has cursed.

Quite honestly, RTK, I don't expect anyone to take this viewpoint, nor am I out to try to convince anyone of anything. I don't want credit if this is even true for only truth comes from God, and I certainly am only a person.

As for false doctrine will it be from something new or from something old? If what is old is revealed to be false does that make it suddenly new?

And the Word of God is certainly His Word; IT IS actually His Word. But only the Spirit of God can truely interpret it's meaning; not vanity that is borne in the flesh

Yes, yes, please test away. Which is sound doctrine? That Christ was cursed by God when Jesus hung on the cross, or that Christ was not cursed by God when he hung on the cross? Does our salvation depend on God cursing his only begotten son, or does it not? One is the truth and the other is false. One is base on man's word and his vain doctrine and the other is God's Word.

...and in my absolute ignorance, please understand RTK, I really don't know which one is true; only God knows.

peace to you, Love HB

HB!!!!!! I am so proud of you and your logic!!!!!!

Therein lays God and all debate must end there. Don't you love it?

leia

We can not simply side step scripture HB and the scripture says:

Deu 21:23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


Christ was no exception.

I do not think we realize the price that was paid on that day.

Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Phi 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Phi 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



I found this interesting, lucifer thought it was robbery to be equal to God.

This also implies that Christ did not have to do this, but He humbled himself.

Best way I have seen this put in a long time. Thanks!

This speaks directly to salvation, Christ Had to become a man born of a woman, He had to be made a curse other wise His death would not fulfill Gods law, there are no loop holes.

God cannot lie, otherwise satan wins, His word must be fulfilled completly.

Dear RTK

Let us agree that we both seek the Lord's truth, that I lay my vanity down to humble myself before the Lord, and that if it pleases the Lord for you to do the same, for I do not wish that we both be eagles sqawbling on the ground

Deuteronomy 21:23 reads as you stated, but Deuteronomy 21:22 reads as follows

Deuteronomy 21:22
And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:

further

Deuteronomy 21:20
And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

Deuteronomy 21:23 that speaks of a man being cursed that is hung on a tree also speaks of the same man having commited a sin worthy of death per Deuteronomy 21:22, and further speaks of a man who is stubborn, rebellious, a glutton and a drunkard. I appeal then, when was Christ worthy of death for committing a sin? When was Christ stubborn, rebellious, a glutton and a drunkard befor the eyes of the Father? Never, he was never these thing. If he was these things then it was in the eyes of men who then cursed him and hanged him on the tree.

Again I reinstate my faith in this matter. God never cursed his Son Jesus Christ for our sake. Christ only died on the cross never committing a sin and was resurrected for our sake, and that is how we have salvation. Anything more added to this basic understanding strays from the truth.

Love HB

HB, sorry my friend but I do not accept what is being said here, the scripture is clear.


Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Do seriously think Christ just had to come down to earth as a man and die and be resurected to give us salvation.

He was made sin, He was made a curse. He took every last bit of sin from this world on Himself, someone had to pay the price or there would be no salvation. Talk about unfair a man lives a sinless life and is made a curse and is charged with the sins of the world. Who else had the authority to make Christ a curse? No one but God.

Sorry HB, the truth is very clear, and I have added nothing to it, I will post this verse again, it stands alone and has no need of interprtation to what it means.

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:


this may look a little different now

Mat 26:36 Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
Mat 26:37 And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Mat 26:40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Mat 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
Mat 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
Mat 26:43 And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
Mat 26:44 And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Mat 26:45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

RTK,

Is this the reason you would give for heaven turning from Him for a moment?

leia

Hi Leia

I do not understand what you are asking, could you explain this a little more?

I think she means in her question, is the reason why God turns his back on Christ is because he became a curse for us?

...which implies we are saved because God cursed Christ in a moment on the cross...(shaking my head slowly )

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Hi,

can you find anything about passover of which Jesus had with the disciples and then later that evening
became for them....?

They were all scattered later that evening

Matthew 21:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

???

bump

Bob don't know if your still reading replies here. So I'll make this short. God knew if he had a picture of himself on that cross the people would make that statute of him a false God to worship. So knowing he had Satan identified with the snake God used the snake. I feel it was used so that people would not make it a god, though some of them may have.

The cross was a sign known to the tribes as a curse. they wanted the Christ hung on that. the cross is not significant to the power of what and who and why Christ died. today I feel that many Christians have fallen and made this cross a part of God that had nothing to do with God, nor does God need it to help identify HIM in WHO And WHAT HE is. He is it ALL> Amen (the catholic church started this cross business with their church.) No where in the bible is the cross written about to encourage us to look to it in any way other than it was the will of the jews who had our Lord put on it. And God said it would happen that way. A prophecy fulfilled.

Your friend in Christ