Hello Sisters and Brothers,

I know I kind of mentioned in an earlier post that there seems to be alot of people that are challenging my faith with questions that I really don't have any answers to.

So I was wondering if there is anyone that can help me or possibly guide me to a resource that would help me with the following question.

There have been many college students that have questioned if the trinity of God the father, Jesus the son, and The Holy Spirit is a pagan concept.

One of the students said that there were other cultures that had the same stories as the bible but with different names. And that there were other cultures that supposedly had a story about a messiah but said that his name wasn't Jesus but someone else.

So please please help me!!! I know that our Lord is the truth. But I need to know how to combat these kinds of questions.

Peace and Blessings
Creation

One good site that can answer part of your question is this...

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/whatisthetrinity.htm

This also goes into the appolpgetics of any objections...

http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm

I have a video from Jesse Duplantis, telling about when he went to Heaven.
He saw Jesus come to him, then Jesus told him his Father wanted him and that he had to return to the throne of God.

You could see the throne of God from everywhere. God was sitting on it, but there was so much light, so much brightness, so much power (with the angels flying over saying at all times "Holy, Holy, Holy" while there was a sound of a mighty wind) that all JEsse could make out was that He was sitting, and that His divine hands rested on His divine knees. (Jesse could see also God's feet.)

Then Jesse saw Jesus go up to the throne, INTO THE LIGHT, then coming out; Jesus was coming in and out of the Light of God. ("The Father and I are one")

You can't see God and live, but you can see Jesus. Jesus is just a form of God that we can behold, a part of God sent on earth to reconcile us to Him, and to die on the cross so that we can escape hell and live forever with Him.

They are two, yet they are one, JEsse says!

When Jesse, having a little problem with the Trinity (you are not the only one! )
asked Jesus where the Holy Spirit was, the angel answered him, "On earth, the Holy Spirit is on earth".
Just as the Bible says.

I compare the Holy spirit (which is the 3rd part of the Godhead) with the Spirit of God, His divine, invisible presence, His envoy here on earth. Just as we exclaim: "that's the spirit", or just as the Bible talks about "the spirit of Elijah", the Holy Spirit being part of the Godhead just thinks like God, since He IS God's presence here on earth.

While Jesus could only BE AT ONE PLACE AT A TIME, the Holy Spirit, being "the spirit of God" (now that Jesus has paid the price for our redemption and went to heaven to spread his blood on the Mercy Seat, atoning once for all and forever for our sins), can be on earth in the heart of every believer. That's why Jesus said his disciples he had to go, SO THAT the Holy Spirit (the COMFORTER; that's another attribute) could come.

An evangelist presented it the right way: he lifted up his hand, flashing three fingers, one for God, one for Jesus, one for the Holy Spirit, then he turned his hand to where one can only see the first of the three fingers (or one finger at a time).

Three in one, one in three.

give us some examples of other cultures with the "same thing."

i will say that it is true that there are pagan ideas instilled in Christianity. for example Pagans celebrated Dec 25th to their Sun god and we celebrate Christmas.

Tell us in specific somethings they are saying and how we can help you clarify this.

[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 13 2006, 01:48 PM]

Peace and Blessings
Creation
[right][snapback]66934[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]

give us some examples of other cultures with the "same thing."

i will say that it is true that there are pagan ideas instilled in Christianity. for example Pagans celebrated Dec 25th to their Sun god and we celebrate Christmas.

Tell us in specific somethings they are saying and how we can help you clarify this.
[right][snapback]66953[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]


Well, for example some people are comparing the story of Jesus to the story of the Dionysus. Who supposedly was supposed to be a dying and rising god. And they compare the story of Noah to the story of some babylonian flood story or something like that.

People also seem to say that the trinity is a pagan concept because of the three gods of the babylonian gods of Ishtar,Sin, and Shamash. And then they compare Amon-Ra, Ramses II, and Mut. And there are some others but can't remember them all right now.

Creation,

I have posted a section from my website that deals with your concern:

God's opening statement to us is that in the beginning He created the heavens (universe) which include the earth and other celestial bodies.

God can create substance, matter, and life forms out of nothing and He fashions His desired creations and objectives from these things.

He also reconditions, modifies, and adjusts any of His creative results at will, and He can also eliminate, remove, or destroy the same.

He is an infinite spirit being who has always existed and will continue to exist into the infinite future.

He is not dependent upon and is not subject to any part of His creation including life forms, powers, principalities, or the material universe that He creates.

He is uniquely self-sufficient and needs nothing outside of Himself. He is the Alpha (beginning) and the Omega (end) of all things. His existance is timeless.

He has definite eternal plans and designs for His creation(s), is all-knowing (total perfect knowledge), is omnipresent (everywhere all of the time), and is pre-cognizant (knows all that will happen in advance).

He is all-powerful, totally trustworthy, possesses great care and concern for all that He creates, and He always ultimately succeeds in everything He sets out to accomplish.

He can manifest Himself as multiple life forms (spiritual and/or physical) simultaneously which can exist separate from Himself and still remain a part of Himself.

"In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God,
and the Word became flesh"
[John 1:1-14]

Jesus has existed from the beginning, all things were created by Him and through Him, and He is the only begotten "Son of God" who is uniquely both God and human. He is an extension of God and is described as the Word of God.

Jesus became the "Son of Man" (a human being) and lived among humans. He is an extension of God who was manifested in a physical body so that He could be seen and experienced by human beings.


I believe that I know the main organization that is trying to make this an issue for you. Their position states the God is singular and does not extend Himself and that if you believe that He does you are worshiping as the pagans. Paganism is actually the practice of worshiping many different gods.

The organization teaches that they alone have the truth regarding the interpretation of the Bible and much of what they believe was revealed to one of the founders who was a self proclaimed prophet.

The same organization has many other unique differentiations as well with the purpose of setting themselves apart and protecting their traditions. The leaders of the church retain power and authority over their members by doing this. Understanding the Lord's unique make-up correctly has nothing to do with your personal salvation as they would have you believe. Their position is nothing more that a divisive tactic to be different. The opposite concepts of whether God is unitarian or trinity is a subject to make an issue out of, nothing more.

Study your Bible and you will understand what you need to know about the character and make-up of the Creator. The Lord's multiplicity is not pagan in any way. There are religions that mimic this, but they are false and in many cases, if not all, satanically inspired. There is only one true God, the God of the Bible as presented. All others are false and contrived by human imagination.

Thanks everyone.

I think I found an article that you all might find of intrest. The Lord gave me some peace in reading this article. Amen!

[URL=//www.summit.org/resource/essay/show_essay.php?essay_id=29]

It is possible that some of these tribes are actually part of the lost tribes. It is true that much of their religious beliefs bear an uncanny resemblance to Judaism. The following will not sit well with those that believe in replacement theology. It's long so just read as far as you are led. pasted with permission of author Ellis Skolfield from "The False Prophet" - http://www.ellisskolfield.com/downloadable-books.shtml

THE FALSE PROPHET (anchor)
Chapter 9 - "ONE MORE TIME"

They shall come with weeping,
and with supplications will I lead them:
I will cause them to walk
by the rivers of waters in a straight way,
wherein they shall not stumble:
for I am a father to Israel,
and Ephraim is my firstborn.
JER 31:9

DEEP in the mountainous interior of Irian Jaya, formerly Dutch
New Guinea, there lives a tribe of natives called the Yalu. They
were one of the most isolated peoples on the face of the earth yet
they had a very formalized blood sacrificial system. They had a
law of Ten Commandments called the wene malalek and a holy
ground called an osuwa. That osuwa was surrounded by a stone
wall. Any man not consecrated to the spirits of kembu, or any
woman who trespassed on that ground, would be killed. Within
the osuwa was a sacred building called the kembu-vam. It had two
rooms, an outer room where the priests of kembu held
ceremonies, and an inner room which held the sacred stone. The
stone was never allowed to be moved by one man, but had to be
carried by four men at its four corners. Pigs were slaughtered and
roasted in the court outside the kembu-vam, and priests, with
awesome ceremony, took pig fat into that holiest of rooms and
anointed the sacred stone.1
______________________
Footnote
1 A more detailed account of the Yalu folk religion may be found in Don Richardson's
Lords of the Earth (Ventura, CA Regal Books, 1977) pp. 76-80.
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Page 82

Though unbelievably corrupted, the parallels of the Yalu folk
religion to the Levitical code are so inescapable that one has to
ask: Where did they get all that?

In Burma, there was a tribe of people called the Karen who
worshiped the God Y'wa. Their prophets declared that they once
possessed a book of the law but had lost it many centuries before.
Sacred songs passed down from generation to generation,
reminded them of their lost law:

Omnipotent is Y'wa; Him have we not believed.
Y'wa created men anciently.
He has a perfect knowledge of all things.
Y.wa created men at the beginning.
The earth is the treading place for the feet of Y'wa.
And heaven is the place where He sits.
He sees all things and we are manifest to Him.
Y'wa formed the earth originally.
He appointed food and drink.
He appointed the "fruit of trial".
Mu-kaw-lee deceived two persons.
He causes them to eat of the fruit of the tree of trial.
They obeyed not; they believed not Y'wa ...
They became subject to sickness, aging and death ...
O children and grandchildren,
If we repent of our sins,
And cease to do evil - restraining our passions -
And pray to Y'wa. He will have mercy upon us again.
If Y'wa does not have mercy on us, there is no other one
who can.
He who saves us is the only one - Y'wa.
O Children and grandchildren! Pray to Y'wa constantly.
By day and by night.1
______________________
footnotes
1 Don Richardson, Eternity in Their Hearts (Ventura, CA, Regal Books, 1981)
pp.77-79, cites from The Gospel in Burma, Wylie, p. 6, and The Karen Apostle,
Mason, p. 97-99.
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Y'wa is just too close to Yahweh (the Hebrew name for God)
to be coincidental. And what about the "fruit of trial" and prayer?
Those traditions do not appear to be founded in the New
Testament Gospel, but upon a knowledge of the Old Testament.
Again we have to ask: Where did they get all that?

The Lahu of northern Burma had a tradition that Gui'Sha, the
Creator of all things, had given their forefathers His law written
on rice cakes. The Rengma tribe in India believed that the
Supreme Being gave His words to their forefathers written on
animal skins (which, by the way, is what the Mosaic law was written
on). But according to their traditions, the forefathers of the
Rengma people had been careless with the skins and dogs had
eaten them.1

These examples are not unique. The native religions of almost
every isolated people on earth contain haunting memories, in
varying detail, of an earlier knowledge of the true God, or of His
Law. So, once again we ask; where did all this knowledge come
from? To find out, we may need to go back again into the history
of the children of Israel ...

Jacob, named Israel by the Lord, was Abraham's grandson.
Jacob had twelve sons, among whom was Joseph, and those
twelve men became the fathers of the twelve tribes of the nation
of Israel. After the death of Jacob, Israel's twelve tribes remained
in Egypt for 430 years. They fled Egypt in 1446BC, and were in the
wilderness for another 40 years. After Joshua's conquest of
Canaan, they lived in the Promised Land, under judges, for
another 300 years. Then, during the judgeship of Samuel, the
people demanded to have a king.

God first gave them Saul, then David, and with David began
the line of kings through which Jesus would be born. But the
kingdom remained unified for only two generations. If you read
_________________________
footnote
1 Ibid pp. 85-91
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Page 84

the account carefully, it appears that Solomon, the wisest man who
ever lived, had a son who was truly inept. Rehoboam's decision to
raise taxes caused a revolt, so during his reign the Davidic
kingdom divided. God separated Judah and Benjamin from the ten
northern tribes, and the twelve tribes became two separate
nations: Israel in the North, and Judah in the South. Jerusalem
remained the capital of Judah while Samaria became the capital of
Israel.

Northern Israel remained in continual rebellion to the Lord,
putting it in conflict with Judah and the nations around them.
Finally, in 748BC, Tiglath-pileser of Assyria made northern Israel
a vassal state and took captives off to Assyria. In 725BC, Shalmaneser
began a major deportation of Israel, and put Samaria
under siege. Samaria itself fell in 722BC and what was left of the
nation of Israel was taken captive and relocated near the Caspian
Sea (north of what is now Iran) and they were never heard from
again. This happened just as Moses prophesied it would:

Nehemiah 1:8 Remember, I beseech thee, the word that thou
commandedst thy servant Moses, saying, If ye transgress, I
will scatter you abroad among the nations:

Why did God ever allow this to happen? Were the Israelites not
part of God's chosen people? Didn't the everlasting covenant God
made with Abraham include the ten tribes? The prophet Isaiah
saw what was going on around him and lamented:

Isiah 63:17 O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy
ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy
servants" sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

The fall of northern Israel was not just an unfortunate
accident in history. It was an integral part of God's eternal plan,
and the Lord told His people about it in advance.

Hosea was placed in Israel just before its fall, and he alone
details the future of the ten tribes after their dispersion among
the Gentile nations. Hosea prophesied from about 750-722BC and
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Page 85

he prepares God's people for the calamity that is about to befall
them. Read the prophet carefully, and you will see that the
destruction of Israel and Samaria is fixed. It is going to fall to
Assyria, no matter what. Hosea is not a call to repentance to save
the northern kingdom. Instead, the prophet is describing the
Lord's plan for the ten northern tribes after they disappeared.

GRAPH NUMBER 13
History of the Ten Tribes

Lev 26:32-33 And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which
dwell therein shall be astonished at it. And I will scatter you among the heathen,
and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities
waste.


In the verse below, we begin to see the everlasting love our
Heavenly Father has for His wayward Israelites. While they were
figuring out ways to rebel against Him, God was putting a long-term
plan in motion to save them: a plan spanning thousands of
years. The following verse is in that setting. Israel is about to go
into captivity when God tells them:

Hosea 1:10 Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as
the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor
numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where
it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be
said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.

That is a paradoxical Scripture is it not? Note the tense of the
verb, "shall be". Shall be is future to when it was written. Israel is
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about to go into captivity never to be heard from again, and the
Lord tells them that they are going to be numerous beyond count.
Furthermore, He tells them that no one will know they are His
Israelites. Nonetheless, they will be called the sons of God. Isn't
that mystifying?

Hosea 2:19-20 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever ... I
will even betroth thee unto me ... and thou shalt know the
LORD.

The Lord then declares that this lost and scattered people will
be His bride, a bride whether they know it or not. Impossible from
man's standpoint, nevertheless, an accomplished fact from God's.
But there is more. If we picture in our minds how seed was sown
in the old days, we can also understand this unique Old Testament
figure of the sower:

Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her [Israel] unto me in the earth;
and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy;
and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art
my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Taking from his bag of grain, an ancient farmer would cast
seed evenly over every square foot of his field with a side-wise
motion of his arm. That is what the Lord did with Israel. He
scattered Israelites all over His great field, the earth, from South
Africa to China. Oh my, can you see it? God scattered the seed of
Israel over the whole world, from Terra del Fuego to the tip of
Siberia.

Descendants of the lost tribes of Israel are everywhere, and
God did not disperse them to lose them. In spite of their
scattering, the Lord declared that He would have mercy on them.
Here, at the beginning of the 21st century, it is only a hundred
generations from when God made an everlasting covenant with
Abraham. Since the very hairs of our heads are numbered, surely
the Lord has no trouble remembering every one of Israel's
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Page 87

descendants. The prophet Amos also spoke of this continuing
covenant with a dispersed Israel, but in figurative language:

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of
Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet
shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Can we hear that? "Yet shall not the least grain fall upon the
earth?" The Creator of the universe was going to save his
wayward Israelites. But not only them. God didn't have just a little
local plan to deal with a few Israelites. The Lord saw and planned
the history of the whole world and its inhabitants in eternity and
He is very good. Everything God does is good. So it is reasonable
to believe that the Lord scattered the ten tribes of Israel abroad
for a good reason, and not just as judgment upon His people. To
see why Israel was dispersed, we need to stand outside our 21st
century mind-set and look back on Earth's 6000 years of recorded
history from the standpoint of God's overall plan.

Earlier in this chapter we saw how bits of the true faith were
spread among the primitive peoples of the world.1 Apostate as
northern Israel became, it is scripturally provable that there were
still men within it who retained a knowledge of God and of His
law (2 Kings 17:26-28). Taking a broad view of history, it appears
that 700 years before Jesus was born, the Lord may have spread
the children of Israel over the whole earth for the express purpose
of sharing the knowledge of the true God with the Gentile nations.
To prepare the hearts of the people of the world for the coming of
_______________________________
Footnotes
1 Because parallels to prominent historic Israelite figures like Abraham, Moses, and
David do not appear in most native religions, Don Richardson (author of Eternity
in their Hearts, Peace Child and Lords of the Earth) questions whether these
religions originally sprang from Hebrew roots. But the beliefs of these primitive
peoples were passed down by oral tradition over the 2700 years that Israel has
been dispersed. During that length of time, almost any amount of corruption or
omission could have taken place. The importance of their great historic figures
would have lessened as the memory of their deeds was lost in antiquity. If a culture
barely remembers that it once had a "lost book," it seems unlikely that it would
remember who wrote it or what it contained.
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Page 88

Messiah and the preaching of the Gospel. Now we can see a literal
fulfillment of a verse that is usually spiritualized:

Romans 11:25-26 Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until
the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And thus all Israel
shall be saved.

What does that verse say? That Gentiles must come to the
Lord for all Israel to be saved. But when the Gentiles do turn to
Jesus, ALL Israel shall be saved! Do you see what that verse could
mean if taken literally? Despite the dispersion of the ten northern
tribes, it could mean that God intended to save the Israelites all
along, and in the Christian Era there is only one way He would do
so: by leading them to a knowledge of His Son. Everyone in the
Church may not be a direct descendant of Jacob, but from Amo 9:9
and the other verses we have read, it is reasonable to conclude
that the dispersed descendants of Israel are saved and in the
Church.

No matter what the color of your skin, or where you are on
this planet, if you have come to the Lord with a humble heart it is
very possible that you are a physical descendant of one of the ten
tribes of Israel, and as such you could be the physical brother or
sister of every other believer on Earth. Greetings, then, my brother
or sister, in the name of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

EPHRAIM, WHERE ARE YOU?

Now we have discussed all Israel, but what happened to the
tribe of Ephraim? Joseph had two sons, Manasseh and Ephraim.
Our historic setting for the following quote is with them, in Egypt,
at Israel's bedside 3700 years ago. The great seven-year famine is
long past. Jacob is old and full of years. He is almost blind, and
now he is about to die.

Jacob (Israel) called his twelve children around him to give
them his final blessing. Joseph and his two sons were ushered in
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Page 89

first. Joseph herding his boys before him, just as any parent would
do when he wants you to notice his children:

Genesis 48:13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right
hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand
toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
14-16 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it
upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left
hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for
Manasseh was the firstborn. And he blessed Joseph, and
said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did
walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads;
and let my name be named on them, and the name of my
fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a
multitude in the midst of the earth.
17-18 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right
hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he
held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head
unto Manasseh's head. And Joseph said unto his father, Not
so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand
upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I
know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be
great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he,
and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.

So the half tribe of Manasseh would become a great people,
but further into the future, the half tribe of Ephraim would
become a multitude of nations. Ephraim never did become a
multitude of nations in Old Testament times, so if they didn't do
so before they were taken captive, they would have do so after
they were absorbed into the Gentile world. Obviously, the tribe of
Ephraim is not out there claiming to be Israel, so they must not
even know who they are themselves. Where has the Lord hidden
them, and can it be proven biblically?

Hosea 11:8-9 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I
deliver thee, Israel Mine heart is turned within me, my
repentings are kindled together ... I will not execute the fierce
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Page 90

ness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I
am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee.

As the warrior tribe, Ephraim was the most powerful house in
Israel. In fact, that tribe was so influential that Ephraim's name
was sometimes used in reference to all ten tribes. But when the
Lord tells us He will not give Israel up, He does make a special
reference to Ephraim, so Ephraim might have a special prophetic
significance.

Hosea 11:10 ... then the children [of Ephraim] shall tremble
from the west.

They are going to return from the West, and, since Israel's
lands bordered the Mediterranean Sea wherever they are, west
would have to be west of the Holy Land itself!

Hosea 7:8 Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people;
Ephraim is a cake not turned.

That is one of my favorite verses. The tribe of Ephraim is not
only mixed among the nations, but it is also a bread not turned.
What can that possibly mean? Well, the ancient Israelites baked
their bread one side at a time, something like the pancakes we
make today. It took time to bake one side, and more time to bake
the other. At the time of Hosea, the Lord tells us that only one side
of the bread is baked, in other words, Ephraim's history is only
half over. For Ephraim's future, the cake would need to be turned
and baked on the other side. God is telling us that half of
Ephraim's saga was still future to this prophecy and that it would
take place after their dispersion. So where did God put them?

Hosea 9:13-17 (excerpts) Ephraim ... is planted in a pleasant
place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer
...1 Oh Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a
miscarrying womb and dry breasts...yea, though they bring
_________________________________
Footnotes
1 "Murderer" in Hebrew is: H2026. harag, haw-rag'; a prim. root; to smite with
deadly intent: put to [death], make [slaughter], slay (-er), "Shall bring fourth his
children to the murderer (slaughter)" In OT times, Israel "went forth to war". This
is probably a figurative reference to warfare, to abortion, or to both.
________________________________

Page 91

forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb . .
and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

Ephraim will be placed in a pleasant land, but in these terrible
texts, we see that Ephraim.s future would not always be pleasant.
A warrior tribe still, they would be involved in foreign wars. And
many of their children would die unborn, either through miscarriages
or abortions. So who and where are they?

REVELATION'S "TIMES" IDENTIFIES EPHRAIM

The "time, times, and half a time" in Daniel were provably
2500 years, so unless there is a good scriptural reason to disregard
that principle, Revelation's "times" should also be 2500 years.

Revelation 12:14 And to the woman [Israel] were given two wings
of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into
her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times,
and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

This 2500 year period cannot be in our future because there
can be only one generation (forty years or so) following the time
of the Gentiles and the time of the Gentiles is over [1967] (Luke 21:24-32).
So to find out when this "time" fits, we need to lay this 2500 years
over past history.

The last we heard of Israel was when they were taken captive
into Assyria. Samaria, the capital of Israel, fell in 722BC. But the
major captivity took place about two years earlier, circa 724BC.
Hosea stated, "Ephraim is mixed with the nations," and his book
was written just before the fall of Samaria. Could 724BC be when
Revelation's "time, times, and half a time" began?1 If so, then this
time should lead us to a significant year in the history of Ephraim:
2500 - 724BC = 1776AD...The United States became a nation!
____________________________________
Footnotes
1 The language of the verse does not tie us to the date of the destruction of
Samaria. .Fly into the wilderness. speaks of the dispersion itself, and would be
applicable for any time between 725-722BC.
____________________________________

Pge 92

GRAPH NUMBERS 14
3rd Time, Times & Half a Time

Deuteronomy 4:27 And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be
left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.

Hosea 2:15-16 And I will give her vineyards from thence, and the valley
of Achor for a door of hope: and she shall sing there, as in the days of her youth,
and as in the day when she came up out of the land of Egypt. And it shall be
at that day, saith the LORD, that thou shalt call me Ishi; and shalt call me no
more Baali.


Note: Ishi is Hebrew for husband, Baali is Hebrew for master. In the New
Testament, the Church has a bride-bridegroom relationship with the Lord.

Is America the pleasant land where Ephraim was planted, and
could the people who come from all over the world to seek
freedom from tyranny and religious persecution be the
descendants of those missing tribes? It certainly appears to be a
possibility. For years people have been looking for the United
States in prophecy. Now that we have found some evidence that
this nation might contain the remnants of Ephraim and the ten
lost tribes of Israel, do you suppose anyone will want to believe it?
Not a chance. We would rather hang in there with the Seven-Year
Tribulation view for which there is NO biblical or historic evidence
whatsoever. But, unless we can think of some other incident of
_______________________________

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major prophetic importance that took place on or about 1776,
then the United States becoming a nation is probably what that
prophecy is about. That makes North America and the United
States the pleasant and protected land where the Lord hid
Ephraim (Hosea 9:13).

THE DISPERSION

How most of the children of the ten dispersed tribes migrated
to Europe is a story recorded by others.1 Suffice to say that the
heraldic symbols used by the great houses of Europe have their
roots in the titles Jacob gave his twelve sons. If you question that,
ask any authority on heraldry.2 The coats of arms that people so
proudly hang on their walls are straight out of Gen 49:1-27.

Throughout the Christian Era, the true saints of God were
hounded all over Europe. The chronicles of the oppression of the
true Church during the middle ages have to be read to be
believed. Fox's Book of Martyrs, Thielman van Braght's Martyr's
Mirror (the Anabaptist record), and Broadbent's The Pilgrim
Church record the sufferings of our forefathers in detail. The true
Christians had no settled home in any land, and their very lives
were continually at risk. They wandered from place to place or
were in hiding from persecution. They had a symbolic valley of
Achor (Achor means trouble) throughout the middle ages. But the
Lord told us it would be like that:
______________________________________
Footnotes
1 To avoid any suggestion that the author is using material which is conjectural or
lacks red-letter accreditation, only common historic knowledge and the Bible itself
were used to support the conclusions in this chapter. However, for those interested
in pursuing this line of study, here are a few books on the subject: One Man's
Destiny, C.R. Dickey (Merrimac MA, Destiny Publishing); Missing Links Discovered
in Assyrian Tablets, E. Raymond Capt (Thousand Oaks, CA, Artisan Sales); The
Royal House of Britain and Enduring Dynasties, W. H. M. Milner (Windsor, Ontario,
Canadian-British Israelite Association.)
2 Heraldry is the profession, study, or art of devising, granting, and blazoning coats
of arms, tracing genealogies, and determining and ruling on questions of rank or
protocol, as exercised by an officer of arms.
_______________________________________

Pge 94

Hebrews 13:13-14 Let us go forth therefore unto him without
the camp, bearing his reproach. For here have we no
continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Then they cried unto the Lord and the Lord hid them from
their persecutors and planted them in a very pleasant land. It was
rich and fruitful and flowing with milk and honey. The New World
was just such a land, and the United States was founded by Christians
fleeing religious persecution. God also told us exactly how
that was going to happen:

Revelation 12:15-17 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water
as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be
carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman,
and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the
flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the
dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war
with the remnant of her seed, which keep the
commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus
Christ.

In the verses above we read that Satan would try to destroy
the Jews and the Church with a flood of people.1 But the Lord
separated a remnant church and many Jews from their enemies by
the Atlantic Ocean. This country grew and prospered and became
the hub of the Western world. West, West, where have I heard
that before? This hemisphere is as far West as you can get. Go any
farther and it is called the Far East.

Hosea 11:10-11 (excerpts) They shall walk after the LORD ...
then the children shall tremble from the west ... and I will
place them in their houses, saith the LORD.

Furthermore, the Church, like the Levites, is called to be priests
and to come out from the world.2 God called Levi to be directly in
__________________________________
Footnotes
1 "Waters" is figurative language for many peoples: Rev 17:15 .And he saith unto
me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and
multitudes, and nations, and tongues..
2 2Co 6:14-18, 1Pe 2:5-9, Rev 1:6, 5:10, and Rev 18:4-5.
_________________________________

Pge 95

the Lord's service. As priests, they were separated from the rest of
the people. God even gave them special cities to live in:

Numbers 35:7 ... cities which ye shall give to the Levites shall be
forty and eight cities: them shall ye give with their suburbs.

The Levites had 48 cities; the Continental United States has 48
states. It was not until after the pivotal year of 1948 that we too
"mixed ourselves with the nations," (Hosea 7:8) and states outside
our borders were added. It was not until after 1948 that the
United States began to lose its influence as the Christian
lighthouse of the world. Occasional coincidences happen. But are
all these historic fits just random chances that by some fluke of
mathematical magic just happen to fit Scripture? That would be
difficult for any thinking person to swallow. Here are another
couple of "coincidences" of interest.

1. The Lord gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision.
Until the last decade, babies were routinely circumcised in
the United States. Why us? There is no sound medical
reason for this practice.
2. The United States was the first nation to have a five-day
work week, thus observing the Sabbath as well as Sunday.
3. Though Jacob had only 12 sons, Joseph's two sons
became two tribes. Counting Ephraim and Manasseh, there
were then actually thirteen tribes. In America there were
only 12 colonies, but the Carolinas were too large to govern
in horse and buggy days, so the Carolinas were split into two
states, North and South Carolina. So as Israel's twelve sons
became thirteen tribes, our twelve colonies became thirteen
states.

All that was long ago. Since then the United States has fought
a half-dozen foreign wars: bringing her "children forth to the
murderer," as foretold in Hosea 9:13. And now, through manifold
abortions, we also bring our children forth to the murderer in a
new and savage way. However, terrible as that may sound, God.s
eternal plan is still on schedule.
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EZEKIEL'S TWO STICKS

Just before Ezekiel describes the battle of Armageddon in the
38th and 39th chapters of his book, he tells of the restoration of the
Jews to the Holy Land in the vision of the "dry bones". Noting the
context, these dry-bones were fulfilled in Israel in 1948.

Ezekiel 37:11-12 Son of man, these bones are the whole house
of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our
hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts ... Therefore prophesy
and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O
my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to
come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of
Israel.

Armageddon follows closely at the heels of this prophecy. How
soon will that battle be? End-time pundits notwithstanding,
Scripture doesn't seem to say. However, because of where we are
in history, we can now cross-reference those dry-bones with one
of Daniel's final prophecies and get a time pin:

Daniel 12:1-2 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the
great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:
and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since
there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time
thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found
written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the
dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life,
and some to shame and ever-lasting contempt.

As the Lord put flesh on the dry-bones lying in their graves
(Ezekiel 37:11), so those who slept in the dust awoke, to be restored
to the Holy Land (Daniel 12:1-2). Same event, different figurative
language. As an interesting side note, God tells us that all who
came to life (returned to Israel) would not be believers. However,
despite their spiritual condition, the Lord is assembling the forces
that are going to take a stand for Him in the final battle:

Ezekiel 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick,
and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel
his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it,
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Page 97

For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and for all the house of
Israel his companions:

All agree that the above is an end-time vision. Simply stated,
Ephraim and the ten northern tribes are one stick, while Judah
(the Jews) is the other. As we look about us now, something
wonderful is happening to both the Jews and the ten lost tribes,
something we have been waiting to see for 2700 years:

Isiah 11:13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the
adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy
Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Before the end, the Lord will take the stick of Ephraim, now
in the true Church, and unite it with the stick of Judah, and we
will be one stick in God's hand.

Ezekiel 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold,
I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of
Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put
them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them
one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

It appears that God plans to make one stick (one people) of
Israel and Judah again. He is going to heal the division between
them and draw them together. Within this generation, the
Christians will be united with the Jewish people, and we will be
one people again. The Israel of God. Are we up to the task ahead?
Of course not, but now that our hearts can be opened to who
Ephraim and Judah are, we can just begin to see what our endtime
roles will be:

Zechariah 9:13 When I have bent Judah for me, filled the bow
with Ephraim, and raised up thy sons, O Zion, against thy
sons, O Greece, and made thee as the sword of a mighty
man.

Judah, now back in the Holy Land, will have only one true
ally: Ephraim and the Gentile church. We are the only candidate
left in the world for the title of "the stick of Joseph". The days
when the United States was a trustworthy ally to Israel are swiftly
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Page 98

passing, as our governmental leaders bend to the wishes of the
Palestinian Moslems and dip Old Glory into the inescapable tar-pit
of Islamic oil.

There is only a remnant of the true Church left in any western
land now. As Scripture opens before us, we can see that the
remnant may be from the lost tribes of Israel, whom Satan has
always hated (Revelation 12:17). Don't be lulled to sleep, folks. If the
Lord doesn't provide a way of escape, physical persecution is close
at hand for Christians everywhere:

Revelation 12:11-12 And they overcame him by the blood of the
Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved
not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens,
and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth
and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having
great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short
time.

So, were 1948 and 1967 important dates? In those years, the new
nation of Israel was born and the time of the Two Witnesses came
to an end. Jerusalem was freed, and all day=years and time-times
were fulfilled. We are now in the end-times, the final generation,
and God is assembling His forces for the hour of trial (Revelation 3:10)
and the battle of Armageddon. The true Church is part of those
forces, and the other part is ...

Please go to http://www.ellisskolfield.com/index.shtml and download the rest of this free book PDF "The False Prophet" and start at the beginning to help you understand the enormity of events that are soon to be in your future.

ALOHIM IS ANYTHING PERTAINING TO MORE THAN ONE.

GEN. 1:1 in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

IN HEBREW ALOHIM MEANS PLURALITY.

IM = PLLURALITY …….MORE THAN ONE

CHERABIM …………….SERAPHIM ARE ANGLES MORE THAN ONE.

ALOHIM…………MORE THAN ONE.

EXODUS…20: 3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

IN HEBREW THIS READS THOU SHALL HAVE NO ALOHIM BEFORE ME……..

DEUT. 6 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
1 John 7 because three are who are testifying 'in the heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these—the three—are one;

HERE WE HAVE THE FATHER THE SON AND THE HOLY SPIRIT.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PSALM 110: The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

TWO LORDS TALKING TO ONE ANOTHER……… NOTICE THE CAPITAL L IN BOTH…….LORDS ………………. {when the L is in Lord it is God the Father,
When it is a lower case l in lord…….. it is Jesus the son…. This will help you see Jesus in the old testament…………}

Genesis 23:6
'Hear us, my lord; a prince of God 'art' thou in our midst; in the choice of our burying-places bury thy dead: none of us his burying-place doth withhold from thee, from burying thy dead.'
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
JESUS IS PRINCE OF GOD OR SON OF GOD –in the beginning……………
~~~~~~JESUS IS FROM OLD FROM EVERLASTING……….HE WAS AND ALWAYS SHALL BE.

Zach2: 10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD.
ONE LORD SENT BY THE OTHER.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1 Peter 1: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world……..HE WAS.

Rev.13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. JESUS FROM THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD

John1:45 45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph JESUS COMING WAS FORETOLD

Luke24: 44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. IN Christ CREATED

Proverbs 30: 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? FROM EVERLASTING

Hebrew 1:8 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
GOD SPEAKS TO HIS SON AND CALLS HIM GOD

Isaiah7:14 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
SAVIOR
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
GOD WITH US
Luke1:35 35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
HOLY GHOST
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Hebrew 10:4-5 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me
THE FATHER PREPARES ME A BODY
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Psalm 22:16 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
PIERCED HANDS AND FEET
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isaiah 43:4-6 4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life. 5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
WOUNDED FOR OUR TRANSGRESTIONS
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Psalm 16:10 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
I KNOW MY REDEEMER LIVES
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Zach. 14:4 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
COMING AGAIN
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JESUS ALWAYS WAS………..GOD ALWAYS WAS………
THE HOLY SPIRIT IS THE BREATH OF GOD



2 Timothy 3:16 2 Timothy 3:16
every Writing 'is' God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that 'is' in righteousness

Job 27:3
For all the while my breath 'is' in me, And the spirit of God in my nostrils.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
WHO WILL SEE WHEN WE GET TO HEAVEN?
ONE , TWO OR THREE ?

Matthew 2:19 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Mathew 3-16 And having been baptized, Jesus went up immediately from the water, and lo, opened to him were the heavens, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him,

I Cor.12: 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

John3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.


I John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Philippians 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:


Colossians 2:4 and this I say, that no one may beguile you in enticing words,
5 for if even in the flesh I am absent—yet in the spirit I am with you, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in regard to Christ;
6 as, then, ye did receive Christ Jesus the Lord, in him walk ye,
7 being rooted and built up in him, and confirmed in the faith, as ye were taught—abounding in it in thanksgiving.
8 See that no one shall be carrying you away as spoil through the philosophy and vain deceit, according to the deliverance of men, according to the rudiments of the world, and not according to Christ,

9 because in him doth tabernacle all the fulness of the Godhead bodily,

……WE SHALL SEE ONE GODHEAD BODILY THE THREE IN ONE.





`

A GOOD RULE FOR READING


YAHWEH – is Gods name but a second name of Yahweh is ELOHIM.

Yahweh – Has to do with His attributes… grace ,,, mercy … love and justice.

Elohim………………creative works and things He does.

Adona – His ruler ship


So the thee basic names of the Father are: Yahweh, Elohim, and Adona.


Sometimes when your reading your bible if you’ll notice carefully the words
LORD and GOD all caps and other times the first Letter is capitalized …the letters following lower case as in Lord or God….

This is a rule to help us understand our Bibles.
When there are all caps ………………..

LORD/ GOD = YAHEW

First letter cap only….

God= ELOHIM – the creator

Lord= Adonai the ruler who controls our lives.

…………god – all small letters = pagan deities

Christ and Messiah are the same.

Moshiach is Hebrew for Messiah.

Christos - Greek for Messiah.

Christ – English Messiah.

Colossians 2 :19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

And He shall rule forever and ever. Jesus always was.
Grace of God is of Immeasurable favor ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,saved through favor.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

APPOLOGIES………………………… PLEASE NOTE THIS IS A MISPRINT…………….
PLEASE NOTE…..

When it is a lower case * l in lord…….. it is Jesus the son…. This will help you see Jesus in the old testament…………}

THIS IS NOT A GOOD RULE TO FOLLOW.

MY INTENT IS NOT TO MISLEAD…………………


CORRECTION:

LORD/ GOD = YAHEW

First letter cap only….

Lord= Adonai the ruler who controls our lives.

Creation,

Give them as much information as they can give you.
Our faith will be challenged throughout the span of our lives. Those who challenge,
do so because they do not believe or because they do not understand.
What you will find to be true in a lot of cases is that the person(s) challenging your faith have done no research and have read no Bible. They are feed a lie
and they run with it until it comes out the other end. Some choose to not believe and think if they can stump you with a question, you will second guess the truth.
Others want to believe, but don't know how to inquire about the Gospel of Jesus Christ so the repeat the erroneous statements hoping you will offer some truth.
If you can not answer their question at the moment, simply tell them you don't know and go find out that you will know. The conversation may not be a complete victory, but you should feel no disappointments. "You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world." -1 John 4:4 (NIV)

[quote=Creation,Jun 13 2006, 04:50 PM]
[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 13 2006, 01:48 PM]

Peace and Blessings
Creation
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give us some examples of other cultures with the "same thing."

i will say that it is true that there are pagan ideas instilled in Christianity. for example Pagans celebrated Dec 25th to their Sun god and we celebrate Christmas.

Tell us in specific somethings they are saying and how we can help you clarify this.
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[/quote]


Well, for example some people are comparing the story of Jesus to the story of the Dionysus. Who supposedly was supposed to be a dying and rising god. And they compare the story of Noah to the story of some babylonian flood story or something like that.

People also seem to say that the trinity is a pagan concept because of the three gods of the babylonian gods of Ishtar,Sin, and Shamash. And then they compare Amon-Ra, Ramses II, and Mut. And there are some others but can't remember them all right now.
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[/quote]


Why didn't the apostles baptize in all three names?

The name of the Father is Jehovah.
The name of the Son is Jesus.
The name of the Holy Spirit is?

The Father is God. The Son is God , and the Father is the Son's God(Heb. 1:9; 1 Cor. 15:28). The Holy Spirit is God (Acts 5:3-4). The Father and Son are one in Spirit, the Holy Spirit.

Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one (John 17:11).
We are one in the Spirit. We are brothers and sisters in the Spirit and are brethren of Jesus (Rom. 8:29).

The Father and Son and we have the same Spirit the Holy Spirit. When two or three are gathered Jesus is in our midst (Matt. 18:20). Who is in our midst? Is it not the Holy Spirit.

As a fellow believer who also wrestles with unbelief from time to time, I am very happy to see that you've been helped. I thank the Lord for that .

You want a resource?
God is within YOU.
YOU are the resource.

So the thee basic names of the Father are: Yahweh, Elohim, and Adona.

Every one of you need to call upon these names and you will find out how fast the third one crawls.
Absolutely evil that name is and derogatory towards the pure names.
It may have been just a typo, but it was carried on throughout the post.
It would have meant the same thing if you would have put Yahwe, Elohi, and Adona.
In ancient times every letter carried a certain meaning, just like Abram to Abraham.
Abram changed to Abraha is omitting a certain character of the person.
That is why everything had to be exact.
Adona is never the same as Adonai.

I looked into this matter and the bible tells us that the Holy Spirit is our Father's Spirit, thus there is no trinity. What you've got is a lot of people with misinterpretation. Signs of the times!

I put a page together that should make it very clear to you who the Holy Spirit is and I assure you that the scriptures are very clear in saying that He is in fact our Father's Spirit and not a third being in the Godhead.

See: http://www.beholdhecomes.net/holyspirit.html

Glad you found peace in your search!

Okay, let's take a look at the word of God on this matter.

Mark 13:11 (New King James Version)
But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

You'll notice that it doesn't say who the Holy Spirit is, only that He will give you what to say. Now let's take a look at Matthew 10:18-20 NKJV

Matthew 10:18-20 (New King James Version)
You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Notice that Matthew is writing about the same thing as Mark but that he goes on to say, "the Spirit of your Father". If you can see that then you'll realize that the Holy Spirit is in fact our Father's Spirit and not a third person in the Godhead.

Where does the gift of prophecy come from?
The word of God tells us.

Acts 2:18 (New King James Version)
And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

Acts 19:6 (New King James Version)
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

So what are we to conclude from all of this? Where then is the trinity? Where is this third person that main stream Christianity have made up? If the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit (And He Is) then someone has got some explaining to do because they misinterpreted the word of God and deceived many into believing their was a third being, and of course their isn't. The Spirit of God is just that my brothers, the Spirit of God. Not a third person. Thus their is no trinity. Thank God for His Word!

<AMEN!>

ya know...satan has been here from the garden...and even before
and had wisdom...and ability...and able to whisper lies to the
ancients around the world over all times...still does...if it sounds almost
like it...its not it...if it sounds in part like it...it is not it...there is one
story...people have always looked to the mystical for understanding...
yet before Abraham was called...God looked at the heart of a man
such as Job...and the rest were looking for gods that would bless
their evil ways...and they found one in a multitude...worshiped under
a multitude of names for a variety of a reasons having to do with
manipulating nature and events...with the adversary there is a price
for his blessing that brings life to the pit...as so with every
civilization at it peak...like this century...and America...at its peak
full of evil, and decaying...

Only through the true and living God, Jesus is the pattern of life to
be found...and there is a cost here too. It is a free gift, that wants
your love and obedience for the unspeakable blessing of eternal life.

Choose ye this day whom ye shall serve...from Joshua...a warrior
of God.

Hope this little overview is helpful...

There is no third person....God cannot be compared to a person or an individual...He is beyond our mortal minds ability to comprehend.

God is the Father.
God is the Son.
God is the Holy Spirit.

God is Love!

1) God is the Father.

1) John 20:17 NIV
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ' I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

2) God is the Son.

2) Philippians 2:6-7 NIV
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

3) God is the Holy Spirit.

3) Acts 2:17 NIV
" 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

The Father isn't the Son nor is the Son the Father. They indwell each other and in this way are one.

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who unites himself with the Lord is one with him in spirit.

Or haven't you heard that God so loved the world that He sent His Son to be it's savior. It was His Son who hung on the cross and not the Father. Otherwise the scripture would read something like, the Father so loved the world that He came to be it's savior.

Why didn't He come Himself and die on the cross? Simple! To demonstrate His love towards us. A good man is willing to die for his friend, but to sacrifice his own son is something else. So in this we see how great the love the Father has toward us. Indeed, it would had been less painful for Him to have suffered on the cross then to have sent His very own Son.

Let me add, where does the gift of prophecy come from?

Acts 2:18 (New King James Version)
And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

Acts 19:6 (New King James Version)
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

So those who prophesy do so by the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) and not a third being in the Godhead.

WHO IS THE HOLY SPIRIT? The scriptures tell us! If your willing to accept them of course.

Hi Jack
What I miss in your arguements is a deep desire to hear God personally in your life. You can dive, run, jump too and fro in scripture, BUT unless its not enlightend by the Spirit of God, The Holy Spirit, The Comforter, The Teacher you will end up in dire strates. In the parable in scripture about the Virgins with the lamps fill with oil, they had to meet the Groom. You need the Holy Spirit to get into an intimite level with God. There are a clear difference in the functioning of Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit. Why not rather invite the Holy Spirit into your life, than try to split hairs and long arguments about the Trinity that you clearly don't understand. And its not a shame for not understanding, because we don't know everything. However when we ask God wisdom, discernment, knowledge and understanding and revelation, God will give it unto us. And wisdom starts with the fear of the Lord. God wants to overload you with His love and passion and kindness. The more you come into the presence of God, the more encounters you have through intimacy with God, the greater the desire becomes to spend more time with God, the more understanding will come.

God wants to use you in a very unique way. Its not about your opinion, but all about His opinion in your life. One characteristic about the Holy Spirit as that the Body of Christ ( all the children of God ) will testify in unity. Rather allow God to do His part into your life.

Love in Christ
Nerina

We all need to be enlighten by God's Spirit... But to know who God is we have to turn to His word and not rely on what men have told us. I for one want to know the deeper things of God so I take my facts from the scriptures, and they tell us that the Holy Spirit is God's Spirit - not a third being!

Let those who want to know the true God accept His word and let those who don't want to know the true God reject His word.

<Amen>

Ignore User [Y/N]

Very useful little tool you'll find on this forum should you want to ignore a user.

When ever they post this is what you'll see:



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Sweet Huh!

God is Love!! Oh how I wish we could all love each other as God loves us

Jack
Jesus said we should know a tree by its fruits. I don't recognise the fruits of the Holy Spirit in this behaviour of yours. It's more important to have a loving relationship with God than talk about Him in this way. I am dissapointed with your response.

Kind regards
Nerina

So Jack, everybody who disagrees with you is now a troll??? and you will ignore anybody that disagrees with you??
Uh..wise move???/

Nah, people are free to disagree with me, but I'm also free to ignore them if I feel that there out to no good. Life is hard enough already and if I can avoid people who go out of their way to make it harder then that's what I'll do.

Hey, believe me, it's better like this!

This is the group that started the spread of the trinity doctrine in 381 AD. It is a catholic based doctrine.

As approved in amplified form at the Council of Constantinople (381), it is the profession of the Christian Faith common to the Catholic Church, to all the Eastern Churches separated from Rome, and to most of the Protestant denominations. Soon after the Council of Nicaea new formulas of faith were composed, most of them variations of the Nicene Symbol, to meet new phases of Arianism.



The Nicene Creed
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds, God of God, Light of Light, Very God of Very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father by whom all things were made; who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the Virgin Mary, and was made man, and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried, and the third day he rose again according to the Scriptures, and ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father. And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead, whose kingdom shall have no end.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life, who proceedeth from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, who spoke by the prophets. And we believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.


It all boiled down to men trying to understand God without His Spirit.

It would help for everyone to start talking to God instead of about Him. Ask and it Shall be given.

Charlie

It would help for everyone to start talking to God instead of about Him. Ask and it Shall be given.



Amen Charlie

There are scriptures when misinterpreted seam to suggest that the Holy Spirit is a third person, however, when you come to realize that the Holy Spirit is in fact our Father's Spirit (Not a third being) those scriptures fall into place. Why not look at them again - for the first time!

"Only dead fish go with the flow."
- Unknown

at the tower of babel, all the nations became or we created... There was a truth before this tower that existed, Noah had it, his sons had it. This truth was corrupted and we have the various forms of this truth in pagan mythologies.


the secrete behind mystery religions, wsa emporer worship and all mystery religions had it. The pharoah was what? deified, ceasar wsa? deified!...

they took men like Nimrod and others and created myths and deified them..

The question is not how many old cutures have these things within them.. the qwuestion is.. what was the original truth and why do so many cultures all have a common teaching. WHY? Because they had a common root!

Let us put it in its simple context.

Yawah, Jehovah, God the Father, is an unseen Spirit being who spoke to the prophets usually through His word they were reading and meditating in. He was then the unseen Spirit and the Holy Spirit is merely His Spirit.

He is a spirit being and so, the Holy Spirit is merely the Presense of the Father. The Father chose to fashion Himself a body to dwell in and reveal Himself one on one to mankind and so, He revealed Himself in the person of Christ. Christ then was a revelation and manifestation of God in the flesh. Some will not see this but Isaiah identified Him as being Wonderful, Consolor, The Mighty God and the Ever Lasting Father and Prince of Peace.

Christ said this: "When you have see Me you have seen the Father, for I and the Father are one!" So that is the revelation of Christ as the only physical manifestation of the Father. Otherwise the non physical presence of the Father and the Son, who are actually one and the same, is the Holy Spirit. There are no three persons in the Godhead since they are all one and the same person. It is the testimony of the scripture and not my notion of things. The Trinity is a confusion made by man made interpretations and doctrines and the scriptures do not support the concept of three persons but only one person.

Jesus is God in the flesh. Yawah tabernacled with men in a tent pitched of flesh!

The Spirit of God, The Spirit of Christ and The Holy Spirit are all One and the same. There is one Spirit and one flesh. All who are Christ's are the body of Christ.


Charlie

Christ said this: "When you have see Me you have seen the Father, for I and the Father are one!"

If Jesus would have said, 'I and the Father are the same,' I might believe that Jesus Christ is the Creator.
But using the knowledge in my brain tells me that the flesh and the Spirit are opposites.
I will explain this, Enoch was the first to walk with God and he was taken. Jesus of Nazareth walked with God and he was crucified. Flesh has no place for anybody who walks with God. God is the one now who has been taken. Adam did not walk with God and he was cast from the garden and after he was cast from the garden and he begat Cain and Cain did not walk with God so God cast Cain from His presence. The Old Testament is descriptions of people without the presence of God. The Old Testament gave the people a promise of a savior. The New Testament tells you what WE did with the savior. There is nothing new under the sun. We MUST crucify the flesh completely.

Oh, I am not a terrorist.

apostolic said -
at the tower of babel, all the nations became or we created... There was a truth before this tower that existed, Noah had it, his sons had it. This truth was corrupted and we have the various forms of this truth in pagan mythologies.

Noah was chosen by God because of his allegiance. Noah came from Lamech; Lamech came from Methuselah; Methuselah came from Enoch. Enoch walked with God and Enoch was not so Enoch was taken.
Noah became the savior, not of mankind, but the savior of God. After God destroyed everything with the flood, God said, 'I will not do that again; as long as the earth remains seedtime and harvest, cold and heat, and day and night shall not cease.' But, notice before that when all came off the ark and Noah built the altar what God said, 'for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth.'
Tie that in with Jesus and his statement, 'To the children belongs the Kingdom of God.'
Now, think about what is happening worldwide.
Children have desired playthings to keep them occupied.
These have become our idols.
We are little children playing in our sandbox and we have no more room in our sandbox and the little plastic cars that we have are making us sick. We have to spend so much energy and time building our neighborhoods and housing our soldiers.
It is all in our minds.
We cannot crawl back into the womb to be born again.

Gregg:

We are created in th eImage of God. We have Spirti, Body, and Soul.
as he is so shall we be. When we die our bodies lay and decay, our Spirit, goes back to Him who gave it.

And as for Abram being changed to Abra-Ha-M the difference is the
Hebrew letter HAY, which = the holy Spirit, or the breath of God!

When you have the filling of the Holy Spirit in you, you can do all things
through God, that he desires you to do.

OH that we all were like Abraham, filled by the breath of God!

Dave Main.

The Main man Dave!

HI,

I just want to encourage you in that God is not a feeling...for some there
is an immediate transformation that is evident...for others it is a
slower process...and it begins when you say "I do" so to speak.

You may not feel differently right now, however you are different...
and there may be subtle signs that you become aware of along the
way...it is a journey walking with the Master. He will walk with you
from now on...speak to him as if you are speaking to us...He will
break bread with you...open the Word...begin to study a Chapter...
and as you read you will get a comfort that you cannot find anywhere
else...this will be Him. He will be with you always...

Don't beat yourself up, or let the adversary tell you that you missed
it, you didn't. He is there. In a little while you will notice little things
or maybe big things...just let Him lead you for He loves you, my
friend...and you will never find another relationship like this one.

He knows everything about you, and everything that you don't know
about yourself...and after you have walked with Him along the way
you will realize that He is growing you into the person that you and
He always wanted...it is not in the world...and it walks through the
world...you, however are a citizen of another place...and God is
going to bless your life with Himself...

Sometimes He stretches your faith...litttle by little...and He is a
rewarder...with Himself...and a provider and a giver of gifts...of
the spirit...let Him move gently in your life by being gentle with
yourself. Read the Word and ask Him for His understanding to
open the Word and have Him teach you.

For each it is a unique experience yet it shares the Word, and
Jesus accepts us right where we start...no one can judge this time,
especially you, yes? Let Him come near by drawing near to Him.
If you like to praise...just praise him...doesnt have to be song...
Just speak forth what is in your heart about your life and how you
want Him to guide you...He certainly will do it...His way...

Let go of the reins of your life and turn it over to Him...He called you
first...and loved you first...so you could call on Him and love Him.


Ephesians 2:4-7

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love wherewith He loved us, 4

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ, ( by grace yea are saved;)5

"And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly
places in Christ Jesus:6

"That in the ages to come He might shew the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.7


Signet

There is only one God who is able to create extensions of Himself and can be those extensions and still be Himself at the same time. He is the "Father", He is the "Son", He is all of His 7 fold "Holy Spirit" extensions, and He has also taken on humanity through the extension of His Son.

The Lord that we know is dimensional. He is both God (a Spirit Being) and human, and there is no other like Him that exists, or ever will exist. He possesses all power and control over His creation, is timless (eternal), is all knowing, is every where all of the time, and is totally independent of His creation and needs nothing outside of Himself.

Paganism is the human practice of worshiping many different gods and these are not gods at all. They are figments of the human imagination and they are covers for Satan's manipulations.

The best explanation I've used is to tell people this:
I am a man.
As a man I am a father, a husband, and a son. These are merely titles that describe my duties to the individuals using them. I can be several at one time (we could even throw in brother) Through it all I remain 100% man.

Hello Sisters and Brothers,

I know I kind of mentioned in an earlier post that there seems to be alot of people that are challenging my faith with questions that I really don't have any answers to.

So I was wondering if there is anyone that can help me or possibly guide me to a resource that would help me with the following question.

There have been many college students that have questioned if the trinity of God the father, Jesus the son, and The Holy Spirit is a pagan concept.

One of the students said that there were other cultures that had the same stories as the bible but with different names. And that there were other cultures that supposedly had a story about a messiah but said that his name wasn't Jesus but someone else.

So please please help me!!! I know that our Lord is the truth. But I need to know how to combat these kinds of questions.

Peace and Blessings
Creation

*****************************************************************************
But, with God there is no difference between male and female, barbarian, Scythian, slave, or freedman. We are all one through Christ Jesus. We answer to one Lord, one faith, and one baptism. We are all one all the time everywhere. We can pick up the sword and fight ourselves. But we will always make peace with ourselves in the name of humanity. In that way we create our own world. We are who we are with thousands of generations behind us that we can learn from. The mistakes we make are our mistakes and we must reconcile them to make the future better for ourselves. We have free will. The choice is set before us; the choice is life or death. And these we choose every day. We are little children in a harsh world. No matter what your age, there is always someone older. The duration of your life does not make you the wisest, for there is always something wiser. We are humans. We make mistakes, but we learn and hopefully one day we will pass the test. While we live on this earth we have to learn and when the time comes, we pass. What we leave behind, the next generation will use for that is all they have. And all they have to build with.

Hi Gregg,

Ask God. I mean you have come into faith...and we all grapple
from time to time with what we have been taught and how it lines
up with the Word...we also have questions that need the ministry
of the Holy Spirit...that will preclude any false teaching of challenges.

In this way the Truth instilled in your heart and spirit will be equipped
to anwer and in your own search and walk, minister...

You can always say, I tell this truth...I don't really know the answer to
that but I am going to pray about it and next time we meet I hope
we can talk about this again...

Just cuz ya came to the Lord doesnt' mean ya got all the answers.
Not one us of does...it takes time, learning, prayer, experiencing God...
and walking it out...it is a life long journey...

May you walk in paths of righteousness...and may God walk with you.

Blessings,
Signet

sometimes I can't tell who said what in here...so Creation...I think you
asked the first question...so Gregg, I think you posted at the bottom...
which I just read and it was awesome...I need to quote that somewhere
else...in here...thanks all.

I sat here last night after you posted that, Signet, for hours reading that over and over trying to figure out what it was saying to me. What happened was when I first posted what I did, the post popped up next to the last. And I was wondering what happened. What I did was I went back and copied the post and I didn't include the original poster's name. After reading your post, I got a little disturbed. I had written something about not letting the sun set on your anger and I went up and something caused me to click on your name so I could send the letter to you. Poof! And it was a nice heartfelt letter too.

Thank you Signet!

thank you...good word, too!