Prophecies, Dreams & Visions
Dates, Delays, or Just False?

God still speaks in prophecies; sometimes by utterances to our spirit or vocally to others and sometimes in dreams and visions if they agree with the Word. There are five dreams in Matthew chapters one and two in which God spoke to give wisdom, direction, warning, and to fulfill prophecy. The Scriptural Law of First Mention dictates that this is the way God will continue to use these gifts. In Acts 2:17 we are told that in the last days God's Spirit would bring forth prophecy, dreams and visions, and who is man to say differently? Job 33:14-18 says that God speaks this way to open men's ears, seal their instructions, withdraw man's purpose, deliver him from pride, keep his soul from the pit, and keep him from perishing by the sword; “but man regardeth it not.” Joseph and Daniel were great interpreters of dreams; most often dreams need interpreting by the Spirit and in light of Scriptures. Some say that prophecy in any form no longer speaks of future events because Paul said it speaks “edification, exhortation, and consolation.” Many years after Paul wrote that God gave “edification, exhortation, and consolation” in the Book of Revelation, which certainly speaks of future events.

Some say that God does not use dates in prophecies, dreams and visions. We would have to ignore the testimony of Scripture to believe this. God said to Noah that “yet seven days” the flood would come (Gen.7:4,10). God spoke the seventy weeks prophecy through Daniel. It dated the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the coming of the Messiah to die for us (Dan.9:24-27). Daniel also prophesied that from the middle of the tribulation when the continual burnt offering will be taken away there will be 1335 days until the resurrection (Dan.12:11-13). God spoke through Joseph to the butler and the baker of Pharaoh that in “yet three days” their judgment from God would come. With Noah it was “yet forty days.” Some prophecies mention “after two days” or “after six days,” meaning after 2000-year days from the last Adam, Jesus, or 6000-year days from Adam. Sometimes the Scriptures say “on the third day” or “on the seventh day.” These are dates that are certainly coming to pass. These and multitudes of other less famous prophecies prove that God speaks dates.

Can God delay a promised judgment after He has prophesied a date whether by dreams, visions or prophetic utterances? God will not change what is written in his Word. "For ever oh Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps.119:89). His Word is likened unto a rock, immovable and unchangeable. The Word is a sure prophecy. {2 Pet.1:19} And we have the word of prophecy [made] more sure; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day-star arise in your hearts: {20} knowing this first, that no prophecy of scripture is of private interpretation. {21} For no prophecy ever came by the will of man: but men spake from God, being moved by the Holy Spirit. However, God can change or delay what He speaks to you as a warning through prophets, dreams, visions or through His Spirit in many ways. In the case of a delay, when the Word ultimately comes to pass it will be fulfilled as, and when, the Bible says it will -- like with the many revelations of the destruction of America before the year 2000 and before the tribulation. This was a warning and threat that was not ultimately going to come to pass because the Scriptures clearly show that God delayed the judgment from before the tribulation to after the tribulation at the beginning of the day of wrath (see Judgment Delayed or the video, Fall of America; Rise of the Saints). Since this is so, we should spend a lot more time studying Scriptures than prophecies, whether they come by dreams, visions or prophetic utterances. Without a background in the Word we have no idea whether a prophecy is true or whether it is a warning or a sure future event.

Can God delay a promised judgment after He has prophesied a date? God gave us an example of this in the book of Jonah. Jonah "cried and said, yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown" (Jonah 3:4). God had told Jonah to "preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee" (2), so he did. He was not a false prophet. Because of this, Nineveh, the capital of Assyria, repented and God spared them for about 64 more years. If, as God said through Job, dreams and visions are to keep man’s soul from the pit, and to keep him from perishing by the sword, then the threat cannot come to pass when man turns. Sometimes, in Scripture, God repented of a promised judgment when there was repentance (Joel 2:12-20). Micah prophesied the destruction of Zion, but the people repented and God changed his mind (Jer.26:18,19). However, if we find that a person explains all of their prophecies, dreams or visions away with the excuse that they were delayed, we should suspect them. Delays are the exception in Scriptures and not the rule.

However, God can delay judgment because of a cry for mercy. God prophesied judgment three times but Amos sought mercy from the Lord, saying, “Forgive, I beseech thee: How shall Jacob stand? for he is small.” God relented twice but the third time He refused to relent (Amos 7:1-9). Death was prophesied to Hezekiah who then cried to the Lord and 15 years were added to his life (2 Kings 20:1-5). Death has been prophesied to me twice in my life but I would not depart from the promise in the Word for healing and God preserved me. God can try us in this way as He did with Abraham’s command to sacrifice Isaac. Aaron interceded for God’s people in the midst of judgment with incense (prayer) and the judgment stopped (Num.16:41-50). It seems that unless there is a threat of judgment God's people will not seek Him for mercy and grace for others and for themselves. God says, "ye have not because ye ask not" (Jas.4:2). To get us to pray in faith sometimes God gives us a vision of what would be if we didn’t ask. Because we do not "pray without ceasing" we have to fight brush fires all the time. I learned when I was a machinist for the Exxon Refinery in Baton Rouge that it was far wiser to do preventive maintenance than only work on machinery that broke down. Preventive maintenance traded relatively few hours of work for what would cost many more man-hours to repair a breakdown. Sometimes God has to get us to do preventive prayer by dire warnings. {1 Tim.2:1} I exhort therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, thanksgivings, be made for all men; (2) for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity.

When a true prophetic warning is delayed or cancelled because of the mercy of God, sometimes the prophet or dreamer becomes angry because now they are persecuted as a false prophet. They should take heart because it happened with Jonah. {Jonah 4:1} But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was angry. {2} And he prayed unto Jehovah, and said, I pray thee, O Jehovah, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I hasted to flee unto Tarshish; for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and abundant in lovingkindness, and repentest thee of the evil. {3} Therefore now, O Jehovah, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live. What God pointed out to Jonah was that mercifully sparing the lives of a multitude of ignorant people should come ahead of the pride and reputation of the prophet especially when Phl.2:5-7 says that we are to follow Jesus’ lead in being made of no reputation. {11} and should not I have regard for Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than six-score thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?



God can speak in these various forms to build a nation or individual and yet change His mind and destroy them for rebellion and unbelief. He can also promise to destroy a nation or individual and yet change His mind and build them if they repent. (Jer.18:7) At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up and to break down and to destroy it; {8} if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. {9} And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; {10} if they do that which is evil in my sight, that they obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.



In a parable in Lk.13:6-9 the husbandman, who is the Father, had given three years to the fig tree, representing His people, to bear fruit. When He found none, He gave command to “cut it down” (see also Jn.15:1-6). The vinedresser, who is the Son, interceded for one more year's delay, until he could dig about it, meaning break up its fallow ground by tribulation, and dung it with persecution. He said, "If it bears fruit then, well, but if not, thou shall cut it down." Don't be deceived friends, for God's people who don't bear fruit at this time there will come a great "falling away." Notice that the Lord ultimately is coming for the fruit, which is the spiritual man and not the fig tree, the carnal man. Our natural life is only the earth in which God has planted the seed of his Son who is the Word (Mt.13:19-23). Only He that came out of heaven will go back (Jn.3:3,13). Bearing fruit for those who walk by faith is no problem (Rom.11:19-24), but for those who confess Christ, while they refuse to believe his Word in order to bear fruit, there is destruction. {Jude 3} Beloved, while I was giving all diligence to write unto you of our common salvation, I was constrained to write unto you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered unto the saints. {4} For there are certain men crept in privily, [even] they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Lascivious here means a license to do what they want. Those who think grace gives them this privilege will be destroyed. {5} Now I desire to put you in remembrance, though ye know all things once for all, that the Lord, having saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.



In Ex.32:10-14 Moses interceded that God would not destroy Israel because of His promise to the fathers to save their seed and God delayed judgment until they continued to worship a God of their own making (30-35). Moses interceded that God would not cut Israel off for unbelief and God relented for the moment, but when they continued to ignore the Word in unbelief, God “overthrew them” (Hebrew: “make them fall”) in their wilderness tribulation (Num.14:11,12, 20, 26-34; Ps.106:21-26). Some foolishly believe that God will always delay judgment through intercession. When the people continue to sin against God and man, even the most righteous of intercessors will not stop Him from destroying them. (Eze.14:13} Son of man, when a land sinneth against me by committing a trespass, and I stretch out my hand upon it, and break the staff of the bread thereof, and send famine upon it, and cut off from it man and beast; {14} though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord Jehovah. {15} If I cause evil beasts to pass through the land, and they ravage it, and it be made desolate, so that no man may pass through because of the beasts; {16} though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, they should deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only should be delivered, but the land should be desolate. {17} Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off from it man and beast; {18} though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, they should deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only should be delivered themselves. {19} Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my wrath upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast; {20} though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord Jehovah, they should deliver neither son nor daughter; they should but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.



Eventually, when men refuse to repent, God says not to pray for them any more. {Jer.7:16} Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me; for I will not hear thee. {17} Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? Here it is again. {14:10} Thus saith Jehovah unto this people, Even so have they loved to wander; they have not refrained their feet: therefore Jehovah doth not accept them; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins. {11} And Jehovah said unto me, Pray not for this people for [their] good. {12} When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt-offering and meal-offering, I will not accept them; but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence. Notice to the true prophets God says to stop asking Him to delay or have mercy. Eventually only the false prophets promise the wicked peace, safety and prosperity. {13} Then said I, Ah, Lord Jehovah! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place. {14} Then Jehovah said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name; I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake I unto them: they prophesy unto you a lying vision, and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their own heart. {15} Therefore thus saith Jehovah concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land: By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.



Dreams can come from our imagination because of our own desires or needs. Illicit lusts can be shown to us in our dreams. {Isa.29:8} And it shall be as when a hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion. Sometimes dreams come because of what we frequently think on or are afraid of. {Eccl.5:3} For a dream cometh with a multitude of business…



Dreams and visions can also come from false prophets who imagine them in order to confirm themselves to the people. {Jer.29:8} For thus saith Jehovah of hosts, the God of Israel: Let not your prophets that are in the midst of you, and your diviners, deceive you; neither hearken ye to your dreams which ye cause to be dreamed. {9} For they prophesy falsely unto you in my name: I have not sent them, saith Jehovah. {25} I have heard what the prophets have said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. {26} How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? {27} that think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgat my name for Baal. {28} The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the straw to the wheat? saith Jehovah.



Even false prophets are sent from God to try the righteous and separate the wicked from them. These sometimes can have true prophecies or dreams to see if you will depart from the Word. {Dt.13:1} If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder, {2} and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods (Elohim), which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; {3} thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams: for Jehovah your God proveth you, to know whether ye love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul. {4} Ye shall walk after Jehovah your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Even pagans can have true dreams for God’s purposes of impressing them or giving them direction or showing us the future. It was so with Pharaoh’s dream of the seven years of plenty and the seven years of famine (Gen.41:1-7). It was also true with Nebuchadnezzar’s dream of the future of the one world order and image of the beast, which God’s people worshipped (Dan.2:31-3:7).



Finally, brethren, pray for prophecies, dreams, visions, words of knowledge and wisdom from God. They will guide you through the coming tribulations and catastrophes. According to the Lord, the gift of prophecy will grow according to your faith to prophecy. {Rom. 12:6} And having gifts differing according to the grace that was given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of our faith. We are not to judge someone else’s faith for “If you have faith have it unto yourselves.” The saints must be permitted to grow up and mature in their gift without being judged by those who don’t understand this about New Testament prophecy. The gift of prophecy also grows with maturity in knowledge. {1 Cor.13:9} For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; (meaning part God and part us) {10} but when that which is perfect (mature or full grown) is come, that which is in part (us) shall be done away. {11} When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. Notice from the beginning of our covenant many prophecies may be part us and part God. As we see here, this does not mean the one prophesying should be condemned for having part of their prophecy wrong any more than a child would be for acting immature. The fact that one part is wrong does not mean the rest is wrong. Notice that these prophecies were permitted in the early church so that the immature could grow in their gift. Although permitted they were discerned for the sake of truth and those who heard. {1 Cor.14:29} And let the prophets speak [by] two or three, and let the others discern.



{1 Cor.13:9} For we know in part, and we prophesy in part… (Please listen to Prophesying in Part.) Why does knowledge have an effect on prophecy? Prophecy is not like the gift of tongues. When one speaks in tongues they have no idea what they are saying so their mind does not get involved and pollute the gift. With the gift of interpretation of tongues as well as prophecy there can be this pollution. Since the person understands what is being said, the mind can pollute the gift with immature thinking, false doctrines, and desires of the flesh. We are warned not to condemn someone who is seeking truth among us for having these faults but rather gracefully instruct them. {Rom.14:1} But him that is weak in faith receive ye, [yet] not for decision of scruples. {2} One man hath faith to eat all things: but he that is weak eateth herbs. {3} Let not him that eateth set at nought him that eateth not; and let not him that eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him. {4} Who art thou that judgest the servant of another? to his own lord he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be made to stand; for the Lord hath power to make him stand. {5} One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let each man be fully assured in his own mind. Those who judge the immature brethren’s attempts to step out in faith and prophecy need to remember God’s warning. {Jas.2:13} For judgment [is] without mercy to him that hath showed no mercy: mercy glorieth against judgment.



Probably no prophecies are perfect outside of the scriptures until “that which is perfect (mature or full grown) is come.” The Lord has shown us that we are about to come to the time when the man-child ministry will appear with the unleavened bread and the latter rain just as Jesus came but with the former rain. This will bring many to maturity because of the anointing and truth. This will quickly restore the five-fold ministry which is very feeble at this point. A person who is mature in the faith and doctrines of Scripture, as one who is in the office of true prophet must be, their prophecies are much more reliable. You see here that gifts of prophecy and knowledge are not judged as the office of a prophet was in the Old Covenant, so have mercy on those who are stepping out by faith.



Many have these gifts without holding the office, which is judged more strictly because of the greater anointing and maturity of the gift. Many who prophesy claim the office but should not. As we have seen in the Word, true prophets spoke things that did not come to pass because of God’s mercy or His people’s repentance. On the other hand, some are just proving themselves not to be prophets and/or not to be mature in faith and knowledge needed to support their gift. No condemnation intended.



Love from your servant,

David

http://americaslastdays.com/pdv.htm

Dear David,

this is a word in due season...
nothing added, nothing subtracted...


"And there was great joy in that city". Acts8:8

Shalom,
Signet

I liked the post Corny...There was a lot of info. to think on and think differently about...However l've never heard this interpretation of 1 Cor.13:9-11 before.

Could everyone else be wrong and this is a new interpretation of those scriptures refering to "which is perfect comes"...as we've always thought that to about Christ coming and our endless peering through a blurry glass will come to and end...Not because we've mature to perfection but because Christ is come?

Miki, yes I have heard this before. It has to do with the bride/manchild in Rev 12.
It is far too long to explain right now (I am on my way out) but you can find it in the book Hidden Manna on the same link as the above piece. He explains it fully there.
I have heard this here in SA as well and it make sense if you put all the scriptures together about God's plan for his church/body
A clue to the answer is: God never does things in half measures. When he saved us, He so totally saved us and restored us and brought us into Himself............but the story is not over yet....the best is yet to come...Praise be the Eternal Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, Who came and gave Himself for us, so we can live .So we can have life and have it more abundantly! Who made us (Psalm 8) a little lower that Elohim. Who gave us the Holy Spirit as a deposit of the glory yet to come. Christ IN US, the HOPE of glory.
God has saved the best for last.....we will see it with our own eyes as the glory of the Lord fill the earth.

Thanks for the web site. I tried to look at the long explanation...

Actually l tried reading the rapture (when) in hidden manna...

How about giving that part to me in a nut shell. I think he's saying mid...but then again l think he's saying end?

Cut to the chase though will you..

There is a lot of scripture ref in this, and its not the interpretation of a man, but a honest reading of the Word.
Its at the end of the trib, just before the wrath of God hits the earth.(we are not meant for the wrath)
Church goes into wilderness , like Israel. Purification of the body/church to finally walk in God's Word. Bride/manchild (born in Rev 12) gives instruction to the rest of the Body as they flee into the dessert. They war with the Word against the beast. A lot of Christians die. Some live...those who are walking in the Word and knows by experience how to use the Sword of the Word. God supplies again like with Israel in the wilderness.

Once you see this, you will see how unprepared the body is for what lies ahead.
So much to tell.....so little time
C

I guess l still don't understand... Trib...3 1/2 rears...rapture?

But during the first 3 1/2 ministering to the newest members? (or luke warm?)

One might think of the first 3 1/2 years as chastisement...no?

Maybe there's a first second and third batch?

A word of caution concerning the Lord's coming for the Church. Jesus said that He will keep living believers from the hour of His judjment that is coming upon the whole earth [Revelation 3:10]. We also read in Revelation that many believers will be beheaded for their faith during the same period [Revelation 20:4]. This would mean that Jesus did not clairify his "protection" promise and that not all, but only some believers will be protected during the hour of trial. I seriously doubt this to be the case.

I completely understand the prevalent and current arguments regarding the timing of the Lord's action on this subject and am aware of all of the differences and attempts to support each from Scripture. One should keep in mind that the purpose for the Lord's judgment is for vengeance against an unbelieving world just like the flood. Noah and his famiy were the only humans kept from the deluge because Noah walked (was a believer who was ready) with God. All other earth dwellers, possibly billions, were eliminated.

Many true Christians have and will suffer persecution because of their belief, but this is different than the Lord bringing judgment upon humanity for refusing to believe the truth about Him. Also, many true believers did not and will not experience a time of trouble even worse than the flood. These are those who have and will have died physically before the hour of trial comes to the earth at the end of this present age. This number is and will be most likely greater than the number of living believers who will be called out at the time.

Also keep in mind that not all true believers since the first century for example have been persecuted directly for their faith. Neither is there any indication for the necessity to purify living believers by persecution during the 70th week (the believer is saved by grace and by faith ....nothing else is necessary). Why would they be any different than those who have been saved and have died physically before the Lord's Day of judgment and wrath begins ?

One can only guess at the timing of the Lord's calling of living believers to meet Him in the air given all of the related proof-text Scriptures contained in the Bible. This action is not specifically dated. He said it is a time that no one can know and that it will be unexpected (not predictable). If one is living during the 70th week and has related knowledge of the Bible, then predicting the end of period would be easy to do, or even significant signs along the way for that matter. What we do not know is when this time period will begin.

The caution is this. If the Lord does call out living believers before His judgment process begins ...... this forces the issue of being ready. Those that are not ready will definitely experience His worldwide vengence along with all others on earth who refuse to believe the truth. There will be those who turn to the Lord during His judgment period, but they will most likely be beheaded for their faith. The problem with this scene is that if you are not ready (Spiritually) you will be in this group ... or worse, you could become an unbeliever being deceived by the workings of Satan and you will turn against the Lord because of His judgments. If you are ready at your physical death, which may occur before the 70th week begins, then you will not be subject to the hour of trial. Not all living believers today will be subjected.

If the Lord calls only certain believers (not those who will be beheaded) toward the middle or just after His judgment process (after the tribulation of those days), you will have to be just as "ready" and it will be at a time that no one is anticipating even though you will have knowledge of the events taking place on the earth which will correspond exactly with the prophetic Scriptures. This does not make a whole lot of sense, but some believe this will be the case. Also, investigate the Lord's gathering and separating actions at the end of the tribulation which is different than the description of the translation of living believers. The gathering and separating will be for mortals who survive the tribulation, first of national Israel and then from the nations. All believers of the elect (national Israel) and the sheep of the nations will enter His earthly Kingdom, the unbelieving goats will not. [Matthew 24:31, 25:31]

Keep this in mind. There is a reason why the Lord has said that living believers must be ready for this unpredictable translation event. If you are not ready and miss it because you have not seen any of the exact events of the 70th week, then you will be subjected to the great delusion and the victory that the Lord will allow Satan to bring to the earth During the first 1,260 days.

Many events recorded in Scripture will take place during his rise to power through the little horn and the other 10 horns. He must destroy MBG's great city, conquer most of the Middle East (where his base of operations will be centered) including Israel, and vanquish his opposition from the far North and East. Satan will then rule the earth for the next 1,260 days with no opposition. The Lord will then suddenly force Satan, his agents, and followers to Armaggeddon and the destruction of his kingdom in the next 30 day period.

There is also a reason for directly translating living believers and taking them away from the earth (the dead in Christ are to go as well at the same time). Otherwise this would not be necessary and believers could be killed and then resurrected to the same end. The Lord would return to the earth visibly at the end of the tribulation and simply resurrect and incorporate these into His earthly Kingdom. Translated believers will be caught up to meet Him in the air as He comes down to begin His reign on the earth ? Look for a time differential here.

There are those who deny Scriptural support of His rule on the earth from Jerusalem for 1,000 years for various reasons, but there is vast proof-text Scriptural content that has to be ignored if this were true. All of the prophetic Scriptures must be included and must be congruent for complete and correct understanding. We must be ready, for at a time we think not, the Son of Man will come as a thief and with no warning signs for those who are ready. He said this. Do not be deceived.

Stephen:

I've always leaned to pre but keep my eyes open to mid as well. There have been some good arguments for this point. The one that doesn't hold water however is the timing. I like to listen closely for something l might have missed.

I have some questions on the below portion of your post. Who's MBG?
And who would be his opposition from the far north and east as l didn't think east was until Armageddon? and l thought Russia got taken out in the Ezekiel 38/39 war? which l've always seen as the precursor to all of the end times events discussed.... which also, l've always seen the rapture to be associated with in one way or another. Have any of you ever wondered how long that war could possibly last? This is where l believe the AC steps in and brings peace. My understanding has been that the church wouldn't know who he was.

How did you arrive at Armageddon "in the next 30 day period".

Then in that last paragraph l get a little confused where you start talk about translating believers and the dead in Christ again because l thought you were talking about the scenario concerning the period after Armageddon?...Plus you use the word tribulation to define the whole period rather than wrath and l get mixed up...sorry Please help me out with these last two paragraphs..Thanks for your time. Miki

Miki,

I agree that timing is the issue for the translation of living believers. We need to be ready (spiritually) now and every day from now on. There is enough evidence in Scripture for an earlier rather than later action by the Lord and I believe more for the first. I do not believe that Jesus would promise protection for some living believers of the Church and not others who will be beheaded for their faith during the period. If I am correct about this, thenall will be kept from His judgment process which I believe will last for the full 7 year period. Those who will be killed for refusal to worship Satan's beast will be those who find the truth and become believers after the 70th week begins.

If you read Revelation carefully yoy will find several references to those who dwell in heaven and are observing the 70th week events on the earth. Revelation structure switches back and forth from the heavenly dimension to the earth. This is just one example that would indicate an early resurrection (dead in Christ) and translation (living believers) of the Church prior to the beginning of the 70th week. The purpose of this action by the Lord would be to keep the living believers from His judgment actions against those inhabitants of the earth who refuse to believe the truth about Him. He will not subject the living believers of His Church to His wrath, which He will execute personally ..... judgment has been given to Him and all of the events of the period will be under His control.

I am saying that there is much more comprehensive and related evidence (directly or indirectly) for the Lord to call the Church home earlier than other positions on the matter. There are several others that are worthy of consideration, but one has to compromise on the complete overview and compatability of the Scriptures to make them fit. I know about most of them and understand where the short comings are for each set of precepts. I always tell people to be ready and that the safe ground is to expect the Lord at any moment in our day primarily because of what we see going on in the Middle East where the visions of the Bible prophets are focused.

MBG is Mystery Babylon the Great as described in Revelation. In this case I am referring to her "great city" component. She is much larger that her great city, but this would be her center of business, economics, trade, and material wealth specifically described in Revelation 17 and 18.

If you read Daniel 11:36-45 you will get the picture of the little horn's conquering of the Middle East and Israel. He is referred to as the king of the north. In this process he will have opposition from the North and the East which he will quickly eliminate. He will not be able to rule unopposed for 42 months (second 1,260) until he successfully subdues his opposition from certain Middle Eastern countries including Israel and others outside of the Middle East. Daniel has the vision that includes the additional 30 and 45 days added to the second 1,260 and you can find this in chapter 12. Notice that 12:7 refers back to the king of 11:36. I have a section on my website that details the time frame and I will post it after this reply.

Ezekiel's vision of Gog and company has been interpreted as the Russians and various Middle Eastern allies attacking Israel. I, for one, was of this opinion. This is still possible, but I see a different picture today. This gets a bit complex and I can not address all of the detail in this post. I believe that Gog is Satan and the Land of Magog refers to the geographic location of the rise of the little horn, king of the north, who will be the human component of Satan's christ (antichrist). I believe this will be in the northern part of the Middle East, not Russia, and that the reference to the Land of Magog is of the early habitations of Magog's descendants shortly after the flood. This would be the northern sector of the Fertile Crescent.

The structure of Ezekiel's prophecy is key to understanding the vision. The scope of the vision includes the beginning of an invasion of Israel specifically which will result in Israel's defeat and occupation by the king of the north (the little horn). We know he will do this from other prophetic visions. He will rule over Israel for 42 months. Ezekiel's vision does not cover this detail but jumps to the end of his rule when the Lord will intervene and force him to battle at Armageddon where he will be defeated. Ezekiel does cover this action in detail and it is the same battle that is recorded by John in Revelation 19:11-21.

Satan (Gog) is then sent to the abyss for 1,000 years so that he can not interfere with the nations that will exist during the Lord's millennial Kingdom. He will be released again after the 1,000 period to deceive those nations (symbolically ... Gog (Satan) and Magog (the nations)) and then proceed to attack Israel again. Satan and those involved will be destroyed by fire from heaven (not a physical war like Armageddon) as a result.

Armageddon is actually a battle for control of the earth between Satan (and his agents and followers) and the Lord. Satan will have control up to that point, but the Lord will end his rule by forcing him to defeat. Notice that the 7 vials of wrath in Revelation 16 are primarily for the purpose of destroying Satan's kingdom and they target his followers. These actions will be carried out by the Lord at the end of the 70th week when the 7th trumpet blows.

Satan's reaction will be to call on all of the human armies of the nations left and subjected to his rule which will be primarily Middle Eastern countries and the near eastern countries (just east of the Middle East) who will get to Armageddon via the dried up Euphrates river bed. These would be those east of Iran. Significant militaries from the west, far north, and far east will have already be subdued and destroyed in his earlier campaign to eliminate his opposition against his objectives for world domination during the first 1,260 days of the 70th week.

The little horn, king of the north, will confirm the covenant with many at the beginning of the 70th week. I don't think this is a peace treaty, but will be his design and support for the destruction of Israel, elimination of any who will not worship him and submit to his cult, and world domination. Daniel 9-27 does not give the details, but one needs to look at what he does in all of the other visions to get a picture of this covenant. His destruction of many by peace will be his rational for the elimination possibly billions of humans. In other words, he will state that in order to obtain "peace" he must be followed and worshiped, and that those who will not do this must be eliminated.

If you are around when the 70th week begins (it is possible that you may not be), you would be aware of his confirmation of the covenant and the declaration of his intentions. This will be the first actual indicator of his presence and from then on he will be very visible to the world by his actions. If you have been taken to heaven you will also view the same, but from a different place. There will be no question about his identity once the 70th week begins and many will follow his train because they want to. They will be deceived by his deception and his supernatural abilities.

If I have missed a part of your inquiry please let me know. You have some very good questions and I will attempt to address anything missed or expand on the above as well. We have a condition on the earth at present that is very ripe and set for these things to take place. I have never seen it like this in the 25 years that I have studied Bible prophecy. Even then, we do not know when the Lord will intervene and start the beginning of the end of this present age ........ but we must be ready, for in the "twinkling of an eye" He will change us and call us home. I believe we will hear His call, His shout, whether we are dead or alive, and we will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

The 70th Week Decreed for Israel
Does the 70th week decreed for Israel contain tribulation events in the first and second half ? Does the second half extend beyond 1,260 days ?

Careful reading of Scriptures related to this time period will reveal an affirmative answer to both of these questions. It is important for the student of Bible prophecy to grasp the timing of events belonging to the Lord's intervention at the end of this present age.

Israel will be invaded, conquered, and ruled by the little horn, king of fierce countenance, as part of his expansion to form his 7th dominion in the Middle East. He is Satan's christ (antichrist), the beast from the abyss who is a fallen angelic, who will possess the little horn, human king of the north [Daniel 7:8, 8:23-25, 11:36] [Revelation 9, 11, 13, 17, 19] [Zechariah 14:1-5]

The "great city" of Mystery Babylon will be destroyed by the 10 other horns (Middle Eastern kings) at the onset of the beginning of the 70th week. They will do this before they gain a consolidated dominion with the little horn. The first 4 trumpet judgments describe this destruction. [Revelation 8:7-12, 17:12-18]

There is another "great city" in Revelation which is Jerusalem. These two great cities are different. The one of Mystery Babylon is the "great city" of the nations and the other is the capital of national Israel.

These are the only "great" cities recorded in Revelation's visions. All of the other cities in the world are the rest of the cities of the Gentiles (nations). [Revelation 11:8, 17:18]

God will revisit the land area of Mystery Babylon's "great city" at the end of the tribulation period and break it into three parts with a great worldwide earthquake which will also destroy all of the other cities in the world. [Revelation 16:18-19]

The little horn will confirm a covenant (it will only last for 7 years) on the day of the "great city's" destruction with the 10 kings and many followers. He will do this to support his next objectives which will be to conquer the Middle East including the nation of Israel, and then dominate the world. [Daniel 9:27]

On that same day the 5th and 6th trumpets will sound and both are related to Satan's release of Abaddon, the other abyss angels, and the release of the angels bound at the Euphrates River respectively. These satanic forces will be strategically employed by Satan to advance his objectives. [Revelation 9:1-11, 9:13-19]

Satan is the dragon in Revelation who gives his power and authority to the first beast (Abaddon). Abaddon will influence and ultimately incarnate (become) the little horn (the 8th king) and rule the Middle East with the 10 other horns. [Revelation 12:3, 13:1-4, 17:8-11]

The little horn is the human king (man of lawlessness) who will be seen by humans, but he will be the instrument of Satan and his christ, Abaddon, king of the abyss. [Second Thessalonians 2:3-12]

He will encounter opposition from Egypt (king of the south), others in the Middle East, and nations farther east and north (tidings out of the east and north) of the Middle East. [Daniel 11:40-44]

He will succeed in defeating all opposition, including replacement of 3 of the 10 other kings, and will conquer Israel by the end of the first 3 1/2 years (1,260 days) of the 70th week. The abomination of desolation will be set up on the temple mount at the end of the first half of the 70th week. [Daniel 7:8, 12:7-11]

He will then rule the Middle East and the Land of Israel for 42 months (1,260 days) until his dominion is destroyed by God's intervention (7th trumpet, 7 vial judgments) which will occur in the next 30 day period immediately following the end of his 42 month rule. [Revelation 11:2, 13:5, 16:1-14]

This second half (1,260 days) of the 70th week is also the same time frame for the protection of the Israelite remnant who flee into the wilderness east of Israel, and the operation of God's two witnesses (prophets). [Revelation 11:3, 12:6, 12:14]

The little horn's dominion will be destroyed by God within the next additional 30 days for a total of 1,290 days comprising the last half of the tribulation period.

The Lord will appear visibly to the world immediately after those days and will gather and separate believers of the elect (national Israel) and from the Gentile nations to enter His earthly 1,000 year Kingdom. This will take 45 additional days for a total of 1,335 days. [Matthew 24:29-31, 25:31-46] [Daniel 12:12]

Careful study of Daniel's visions will verify that the time of the end is structured according to these time frames. The reader needs to consider chapters 10:5, 10:14, 11:36-45, and 12:1-12 to get the complete picture.

There are two questions asked in chapter 12. One of the heavenly beings, possibly the Lord himself (compare Daniel 10:5-6 and Revelation 1:13-16), addresses the first question in 12:6 and the answer is given in 12:7. Then Daniel asks the second question in 12:8. Two different answers are given.

The answer to the first question in 12:7 describes the first half of the 70th week (1,260 days...a time ,times, and 1/2 time), and the answer to the second question in 12:11 describes the second half of the 70th week (1,290 days).

It is important to note that there is a link in 12:7 back to chapter 11:36-45. The link is "he" (the little horn), and the verses in chapter 11:36-45 specifically describe his conquering of the Middle East and Israel.

Israel will be conquered by the end of the "time, times, and 1/2 time". "All of these things shall be finished" refers to Daniel 11:36-45....the details leading up to the little horn's 42 month rule.

The end of verse 45 points to the destruction of the little horn's dominion after his 42 month rule during the additional 30 days following the second half of the 70th week.

When Daniel asks the second question in 12:8 he wants to know what the outcome will be resulting from Israel's conquering by the little horn. The answer in verse 12:11 describes the 1,290 day period beginning from when the abomination of desolation is set up.

This will be at the beginning of the little horn's rule (mid-point of the 70th week) which will last for 42 months and then his dominion will be destroyed in the next 30 days. This total period will be for 1,290 days and describes the last half of the tribulation period (last half of the 70th week plus 30 additional days).

The same time frame can be found in Daniel 8:13-14 and 8:23-26. The destruction of the sanctuary (place of worship like the great synagog at the base of the western wall of the temple mount) will occur 110 days after the abomination of desolation is set up.

The 2,300 mornings and evenings should be interpreted as 1,150 days. At the end of the 1,150 days (same time as the end of the 1,260 days of the last half of the 70th week) the sanctuary (place of worship) and the temple mount will be restored to Israel.

The little horn will be forced to give up the temple mount area in retreat at the end of his 42 month rule (1,260 days) when his dominion is attacked which will then fall in the next 30 days.

The setting up of the abomination of desolation and the subsequent destruction of the sanctuary 110 days later will both be actions that prohibit Jewish worship (sacrifice) at the base of the temple mount (great synagog at the western wall).

There will be a notible increase in their worship activity prior to the invasion and confiscation of the temple mount area by the little horn. The destruction of Mystery Babylon's "great city" and subsequent campaign to conquer the Middle East by the little horn and the 10 other horns will motivate Israel to seek their God.

I know it takes a lot of time to post like that...Thank you. You might consider posting a shorter version encapsulating the info in a couple of paragraphs and then the follow up as what you just posted.

Let me ask this though. You said:



Why can't those beheaded ones be a product of the revival of the lukewarm church that takes place after they realize the rapture they scoffed at was real and they were left behind? It seems totally logical to me. Perhaps they had no oil when he came.

So you have the rapture of the believers that have kept their lamps...

Then the group that goes by way of death through beheading and other means...

And third the group that's managed to remain alive and are judged at the end...The separation of the sheep and goats.

I've sometimes wondered if the 'great' tribulation (as opposed to the wrath) was a chastisement the lukewarm church would have to swallow...
but it would turn them.

God once said to me "I will open the eyes of many but you will eat the fruit of your works" this was in regards to a chastisement scenario.

So after the rapture...mercy and grace for salvation but beheading...

And if you make it to the end there is still mercy shown at the sheep and goats.

Now in regards to Ezekiel 38 war

I know what you are saying about Gog and Magog..Maybe it's so but it wouldn't change things that much.

I guess some of us are wondering about the temple or sanctuary you call a place of worship..the great synagogue at the base of the western wall?

I'm not versed well enough to discuss the other...

Miki,

I agree with you that some "professing" Christians will be subjected to the Lord's period of tribulation and wrath. He said that He will spew them out of His mouth. There is a very significant contrast between those that will be kept from the hour of trial (I consider this to be the 70th week) and those who will not. This is further evidence of an early translation of living believers and then subsequent conversion of those humans who will turn to the Lord during His period of vengeance against an unbelieving world as you have stated very well.

Salvation will always be a possibility during the 70th week. The Lord will not withdraw this possibility. It becomes an impossibility when one personally rejects or ignores the Lord, His grace, and offer of eternal life. A remnant of Israel will turn to the Lord for sure during the 70th week and most likely because of the mission of the 144,000 Israelites sealed who will preach the Gospel of the Lord's soon coming Kingdom first to Israel and then to the nations. They will follow the Lord where ever He goes during the 70th week and are seen with Him by John on Mount Zion (Jerusalem). [Revelation 7, 12, 14]

One of the significant things in Ezekiel's prophecy is the ID of Satan and where his "little horn" will appear. This king of the north could possibly be an outsider (not from the Middle East), but he will have to be in possession of land area where the ancient Land of Magog was located before he invades and occupys the Holy Land. You are correct in saying that the same ending results will take place. What I would point out today is this. It is very possible that this king will be Middle Eastern and Islamic.

This religion, its teachings, and behavior of its adherants look very much like the Bible's description of the "beast's" kingdom. It is very "antichrist", anti-Israel, and anti-Christian. There are 1.2 billion deceived adherants and I think they would worship Satan's christ as a god. I do not think that they would worship a western leader as a god today .... unless the leader was Islamic. Neither do I think that modern western culture would worship a leader as a god. I could be wrong about this. We need to be aware of Islamic intentions and watch for further development.

We know from the prophetic Scriptures that this king of the north will occupy Israel and that he will take certain actions related to what Israel (Orthodox Judiasm) considers to be the Holy "place" .... the temple mount area where Soloman's temple once stood. Worship today takes place at the base of the western wall since Islam has a mosque on the mount. This king will prohibit any Jewish worship and will destroy that place of worship when he invades the nation. He will also "sit" in the temple of god, as a god, and something called the abomination of desolation will be placed on the mount.

I see no direction or instructions in Scripture from the Lord to rebuild a Jewish temple or place of worship on the mount before or during the 70th week. Ezekiel 40 is the only direction and this is for a temple that will exist in the millennium during the Lord's rule for 1,000 years. It is possible that something could be built there, but I do not think it is necessary for the 70th week.

Paul's statement regarding the man of lawlessness (little horn, king of the north) and a temple of god can be understood to mean that the king will "sit" in the temple of "his" god showing that he is god. An Islamic temple sits on the mount today and we should consider this a possibility. I can not be certain of this by text-proof Scripture.

I will gladly attempt to compress any responses to questions as much as possible and if you have more please let me know. It is often difficult to cover necessary items when explaning the complexities of the visions of the Bible prophets. If I know what you already understand, then I could exclude some of the detail.

Miki and Stephen, I am no expert in this field. I actually asked God some time ago about the rapture, because I am on this forum and it is always mentioned in one way or another. That link that I gave you came to me.I forgot about it and only later as I was cleaning my desktop did I see it again and opened it. (I somehow downloaded the book some time ago)
Well its was the first time that I understood it. I have read a lot on the forum about it, but there was still confusion in my heart. A lot of word, but nothing that I could "hang my hat on"
After carefully reading Hidden Manna, I came to a better understanding about it.
I really think its worth reading the whole book. I am almost done with it now. Its about a lot more than the Rapture, believe me.
I want to place a copy in each Christians hand if I could.
Its like a survival manual in many ways. Walking the ways of God versus walking the ways of man.
It is full of knowledge that we are going to need in the times that are uppon us.
It will take about an hours reading to get to the rapture explanation, and he stays all the time with scripture. I never knew how many scriptures there were in the Bible relating to the tribulation
love
C

Corneilus,

Thanks for the reply brother. I have read some of your posts and have a fairly good grasp of your model of prophecy. You have some very good, and I believe, correct insights. It is a real challenge for the student of Bible prophecy to get all of the pieces in the right place and I think that the Lord has made it that way .... it keeps our interest and attention. He says that we must be ready and focused upon Him for what ever He may decide to do with regard to His purposes for us who believe in Him.

Please continue to post and I will read and reply. We most likely have some differences that I detect, but nothing wrong or suprising about this. I am never offended personally by the view points of others which are different from mine. There are a number of approaches around today that I would consider to be faulty and or directly deceptive and which may be misleading enough to keep one from the truth necessary for salvation. If I detect this I will always point it out and give reasons why. Beyond that there is no contest from my corner.

The study of the Lord's Word is a learning process for all of us. I will normally state my position with candor unless I think that it would offend or cause someone to lose faith. Our salvation does not depend upon how well we understand the prophetic Scriptures even though there are those who would like us to believe it. Praise the Lord !!!

C...I'll try to get to it...the online book..

Thanks Stephen...Hard to think of the Antichrist as being Islamic. However you're right saying that And they like to behead... It's a scary religion.

I was born in 48. TV in the 50's was filled with world war II stories as l grew up. I would sit transfixed and in horror and fear of what l saw and learned as a child. But then there was John Wayne who always made us feel as Americans that we were the good guys and everything worked out because of it. And we prospered.

It's not true any longer is it? No good guy pillow to fall back on. Only the mercy and grace of our Lord and Savior. But when l see the raise of Islam on TV it reminds me of the way l felt as a child growing up watching those images.

So in youth the exit of 3rd Reich and in old age the incoming Islamic nightmare.

The "progessing" oops "professing" Christians as you call them that are to be spewed out l feel deeply sorry for. I don't have an 'l told you so attitude' towards them. Just deep grief. But l feel a deeper grief for those who teach there is no hope for them during the tribulation period and wrath.

I think the scriptures are clear about taking the mark though. Think of the faith required for those who turn it down. They will have to survive on their own and hide. Same WWII scenario and confirmed during the sheep and goats.

I trust in the Lord as to timing. I've never been good with numbers but believe he would open my mind if necessary.

I am interested in how the "sudden" day of the Lord will begin though. I always thought Ez. 38 but that isn't necessarily so.

But l don't think it will be just this casual disappearance of 100,000 of individuals. I think it will be in conjunction with an event that will leave millions missing and dead and a lack of communications. Unless you saw someone disappear it will be a mystery and easy for those left behind to rationalize. This is where "he" steps in to bring peace and order and now a good reason to begin a tracking system.

Is there anything that gives a hint of what it will be? Pole Tip? World wide earthquake? Bomb triggering earthquakes? The Oceans sloshing around? Asteroid? Maybe that many people passing through the time line at once precipitates some kind of cataclysm?

The easiest scenario is still Ez. 38

Miki,

Good thoughts. I can see that your are plugged in and have a common sense reality approach. What we can be certain of is this. The Lord has these things all under His control and He will intervene when He is ready. I always rely upon the Scriptures first and then evaluate conditions against what is written. An exact picture of the 70th week is recorded in the Bible.

It is a real challenge to grasp an overall understanding of the prophetic visions of the Bible. The difficulty is to be able to absorb all of the details across many different visions and then fit them into a comprehensive whole with no stone left unturned. If a necessary piece does not fit then one must go back to the drawing board. We have many aways of failing in this effort and it is generally because we do not seek the Lord's Holy Spirit guidence in the process.

Revelation has the most structured and comprehensive picture of the 70th week and the other prophetic writings are necessary for the correct understanding of the Book. I might suggest this following simple approach:

1. Chapter 1 is John's encounter with the Lord and to write down the things that "are" (this time frame includes John's day and ours), and then the things that will be in the future (the 70th week). The things that "are", and still are, is the Lord's evaluation of the Church by examples, then and today. There were actually more that 7 Churches in Asia Minor. These things are recorded in chapters 2 and 3. There may be some progression implied in the list, but the Church has had and does have all of these characteristics.

2. John is then taken to heaven and into the future to be shown the 70th week in chapter 4. There is nothing recorded in Revelation related to the time lapse between the end of the 69th week, which ended at the cross and the Lord's departure, and the beginning of the 70th week which is still future at this time. What John saw was the beginning of the 70th week and beyond.

3. John is first shown things in heaven as they will be at the beginning of the 70th week. There he sees the Lord, angelics, and a large number of saved humans who have 24 prominent leaders. The leaders are seen in chapters 4, 5, and 7, and the larger number is seen in chapter 7.

4. The Lord opens six of the seals in chapter 6. These describe conditions that will exist on the earth during the 70th week when it starts. They are not the actual literal judgment events that will begin after the 7th seal is opened in chapter 8.

5. Six judgment events will be triggered at the beginning of the 70th week. All six trumpets will sound and the events will begin. These are recorded in chapters 8 and 9, and they should be read in conjunction with chapters 12,13,17,and 18. These chapters contain details that will run in parallel with the first half of the 70th week (This is the time when Satan will be subduing the earth and it will lead up to his 42 month rule). But just before the trumpets sound John sees two groups of humans, those that will be sealed on earth for service (144,000 Israelites) and those who are already in heaven (the Church who is called out and kept from the hour of trial). These are described in chapter 7.

7. Chapters 12,13,17, and 18 also bridge to the second half of the 70th week and each covers a specific set of unique subjects with pre-first century historical references and the relationship to the 70th week. Chapter 11 is a second half subject and chapters 19 and 20 are ending events. Chapter 10 is a book mark which leads John to write more details about what he has already written and more.

8. The seventh trumpet will blow at the end of the 70th week and the Lord's vial judgments against Satan and his 42 month kingdom rule on the earth will begin. These are recorded in chapters 15 and 16. Most of the other ending details are recorded in chapters 19 and 20.

9. The subjects of 11, 12, 13, 17, and 18 are as follows: 11 The two witnesses (prophets that the Lord will send to Israel during Israel's occupation by the beast). 12 Satan, his angelic followers, and the remnant of national Israel (the woman). 13 The beast, false prophet, and the nations of the Gentiles. 17 More details and events of the subject of chapter 13. 18 The destruction of MBG's great city of the Gentiles.

Here is the picture in my head as I see it.

We are here now at the beginning of the 7th day (the beginning of the seventh millennium after Adam ..The Sabbath day..1000 years of peace) and also at the beginning of the 3rd day after Jesus, so its resurrection day as well.

I see a world which has had a few trial runs with Revelation is mind. 70 AD..Hitler... I see the eagle of Rome, the eagle of Hitler and the eagle of the US. We even have an eagle featuring here in South Africa.

666 are stamped on a lot of the shadows to point out types of anti-Christ.
I see a world splitting into two groups. Those for Christ and those against (those who are not for Me are against me...anti -against-Christ)

To see the antichrist, we must look further than popular Christian lore has taught us. There is another dimension to this creature. To see we must look into the spirit.
It’s the opposite of what God has been doing. God has been building the body of Christ. Satan has been building the body of those who are against Christ. The ant-(against) Christ.
It is the spirit that is in the world right now. All those in the PC movements around us that is calling for tolerance in religion,…but worse, it is all those who are not proclaiming that Christ is come in the flesh. It is no longer I that live, but Christ that livieth in me. Those who do not proclaim this , and do not see it as a reality in the corporate body of Christ is….anti-Christ. The true sons and daughters of God is being changed into His image daily, because they are walking in His name: His Name= His nature character, and authority. Those also have His name on their foreheads and in their hands….His Words in their minds and on their lips……..in their hands …they do His works.
Ezekiel 8;1 And in the SIXTH year…..in the SIXTH month………………………Ezekiel 9 ;2 And behold SIX men came….

2And behold, six men came from the direction of the Upper Gate, which faces north, every man with his battle-ax in his hand; and one man among them was clothed in linen, with a writer's ink bottle at his side. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3And the glory of the God of Israel [the Shekinah, cloud] had gone up from the cherubim upon which it had rested to [stand above] the threshold of the [Lord's] house. And [the Lord] called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer's ink bottle at his side.
4And the Lord said to him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in the midst of it.
5And to the others He said in my hearing, Follow [the man with the ink bottle] through the city and smite; let not your eye spare, neither have any pity.
6Slay outright the elderly, the young man and the virgin, the infant and the women; but do not touch or go near anyone on whom is the mark. Begin at My sanctuary. So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple [who did not have the Lord's mark on their foreheads].(A)
7And He said to [the executioners], Defile the temple and fill its courts with the slain. Go forth! And they went forth and slew in the city.
8And while they were slaying them and I was left, I fell upon my face and cried, Ah, Lord God! Will You destroy all that is left of Israel in Your pouring out of Your wrath and indignation upon Jerusalem?
9Then said He to me, The iniquity and guilt of the house of Israel and Judah are exceedingly great; the land is full of blood and the city full of injustice and perverseness; for they say, The Lord has forsaken the land; the Lord does not see [what we are doing].
10And as for Me, My eye will not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their wicked doings upon their own heads.
11And behold, the man clothed in linen, who had the ink bottle at his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as You have commanded me.

Who are the six men: those are the beast.

The man with the ink bottle: Jesus, marking His own.

Who are getting slain: The people of the temple.The Chritians who do not have the mark of God on their foreheads



Nebuchadnezzar made and image of gold 60 cubits high 6 cubits was the breadth and placed it in the plain of Dura (600)
666

This statue presents the world system
Also the Greek word “world” =600
Earth= 60
And 6 is the number of fallen man
Again 666

Its going to be the real followers of Christ (those walking in His nature, character and authority) against those who follow the flesh. There will be leaders , but not the traditional Anti-Christ THE man. We might be looking at a few. One clue is that the world always reflects the spirit. The mark of the mind and deed becomes a real chip implant. God is building His church…Israel is trying to rebuild the temple.

I see us standing at a crossroad. The Church has a Judas in her. The apostate who will sell out the true Christians to the beast. Some will follow the beast and his mark. The mark will first of all be in them…the word of the beast…then comes the real mark and they will take it….Christians too.
John 6: 66 After this, many of His disciples drew back (returned to their old associations) and no longer accompanied Him.
We are almost at Rev 12 where the Church, (the woman dressed with the sun [Son]) will give birth to the manchild/ Bride. The whole creation is waiting for the revelation of the sons of God….and His glory will fill the earth.

The manchild takes the church (woman) into the wilderness and teaches her (3 and half years) …he feeds her with the Word of God. Why? Because if you look at her now, she is saved, but not ready. Most in the Kingdom are mere children, drinking the milk of the Gospel (doctrines and denominations) and have not been ready to eat of the meat. That time is almost over. We are moving into the final part of God's plan soon

.

we, they?

Cornelius, please explain this...How do you come to this understanding? How can the manchild take the woman into the wilderness if the manchild is taken immediately up into heaven. See Rev. 12:5 How is the manchild the bride? (Confused look...)

Now Rev. 12:6 says that GOD took care of the woman in the wilderness 1260 days; which comes out to be a little less than 3 1/2 years by todays calendar.

Okay here are all the scriptures that even mention man child in my KJV Bible...please explain your conclusions.

Genesis 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Genesis 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Leviticus 12:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean.

1 Samuel 1:11 And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no razor come upon his head.

Job 3:3 Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived.

Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

Jeremiah 20:15 Cursed be the man who brought tidings to my father, saying, A man child is born unto thee; making him very glad.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Tigger, I will answer you, but first you must tell me who the Woman in Rev 12 is...and who you think the manchild is that is caught up to the throne.

So Stephen this means that before anything has begun in relation to tribulation or wrath that there are a large number of people in heaven.

So ch.6 begins with a loud noise..then the guy on the white horse followed by a string of events that ends in ch 6 where it says "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand"? So this is the great tribulation? The first 3 1/2 years, and the begining of the last 3 1/2?

The people that are saying it seem to understand what's going on....

But in Chapter 7: 14 it says "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb".

So what does it mean "came out of great tribulation"? If they where already there before the seals were opened? Does it mean the numbers before the throne have been added to? You can't be there before the seals are opened and then turn around and say they came out of?

One bite at a time though...enough for this morning. Thanks! This is helping me.

Cornelius, please answer my questions... I believe that Revelation 12 is something that happens in heaven. See vs 1. Remember that Revelation was a vision that John saw. Some of it is for literal in interpretation, some of it is outside our limited ability to grasp. The woman travailing in childbirth relates to may scriptures given prophetically, regarding the birthpangs. It is a parrallel of Jesus birth. Him being wisked away to safety. His mother pondered many things about her son, Jesus during her lifetime. The LORD protected her through all her anguish as HE was crucified. The dragon represents the evil one or the anti christ.

The battle begins in heaven over the souls of man, and proceeds into the wilderness. Then the war continues in heaven and the archangel Micheal intervenes and fights off the dragon.

This is a representation of the battle for our souls. It could be looked at from the beginning of time until the end of the tribulation period.

OK I will Tigge. That insight about Mary is great that you speak about. You might be surprise at HOW right you are.
I am not going to talk about it now, but Mary is a parallel as well and Jesus...they are showing us what will happen in our time as well. Mary (Church) Jesus (man-child) ...but we can talk about that later.
I have my answer, I worked on it today...i will fetch it...

Man-child
I am quoting freely from Hidden Manna with permission from the author, David Eells. I am also writing my own comments mixed in with the quotes. I will put Hidden Manna in quotes

“(Rev.12:5) And she was delivered of a son, a man-child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne. Jesus identified this “man-child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron” as overcomers who do His works. (2:26) And he that overcometh, and he that keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give authority over the nations: (27) and he shall rule them with a rod of iron…as I also have received of my Father. Notice that the overcomers are this man-child who walks in the steps and authority of Jesus. They are Jesus living in a corporate body, which is given over to him by overcoming sin through faith to do His works. We see that this man-child “was caught up unto God, and unto his throne (12:5). Jesus had already identified this man-child as a body of overcomers who are given authority to rule as He was from the throne. (3:21) He that overcometh, I will give to him to sit down with me in my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father in his throne. We will deal with this throne in “Caught up to the Throne” but for now I will deal with who the man-child is and how he becomes the first-fruit overcomer.”

Rev 2;25Only hold fast to what you have until I come.
26And he who overcomes (is victorious) and who obeys My commands to the [very] end [doing the works that please Me], I will give him authority and power over the nations;
27And he shall rule them with a sceptre (rod) of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, and [his power over them shall be] like that which I Myself have received from My Father;(H)
28And I will give him the Morning Star.

“Him” is the man-child. The man-child was caught up to the throne (seated with Christ in heavenly places) onto the throne is a position of authority. Some of the body of Christ are already calling themselves Sons of God by faith

“When Jesus was departing to send the Holy Spirit He promised that He would be seen again in the earth as a man-child born to a woman, which is the church. (Jn.16:19) Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me? Until you read the next verses you might think that the only fulfilment of this was when Jesus was physically resurrected. Jesus died so that He would be spiritually resurrected in the church. Paul taught that the goal of perfection is attained by the resurrection life of Christ manifested in us through death to self (Phl.3:10-15). Continuing our text Jesus tells us that the sorrow of travailing in death to self would give way to the joy of bringing forth His life. (20) Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. (21) A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. Notice that the disciples of Christ who were the church would be likened to a woman in travail who brings forth a man-child in the image of Jesus. In this way He would be seen again.”

Christ in us. Christ is present in the whole BODY of Christ on earth. Jesus is the HEAD, you are the BODY. God has been raising up a HUGE BODY OF CHRIST on the planet, Why,? To rule and to war against the beast. God has been speaking this truth in parables since the beginning, so that it would not be revealed until the right time and only to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. Some will see this, but deny the truth of it.

That is the truth that will change this world. God has not given up on this world at all. You are not going to be ruptured just yet. You have work to do still. You must first realise who you are, you must realise that you are seated on a throne, that you have a rod of iron to rule with, that you have His Word in your mouth as a sword to come against the spirit of the beast and make war on him. In war some die, some of us will die.

Those who TRULY know the secret place (We are hidden in Christ) of Psalm 91 will be protected. God is totally able to supply to His church in the wilderness. Some of us have never taken this seriously…in the wilderness God, (through the bride/man-child) will teach the church this truth.


"(Rev.12:5) And she was delivered of a son, a man child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and unto his throne.
Some think that the man-child is about to fly away. What we will see clearly in this chapter is how this first-fruits company are caught up to the throne and yet minister to the church in the wilderness as all the types prove. (Rev.12:6) And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that there they (the man-child) may nourish her a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

Tigger this is just a bit of it...I am doing the "Readers Digest Condensed Version"

I don't have much time now but quickly...

I see what you are saying. Opening those seals is like reading a preview of events.Almost like it can't happen until it is announced. Revealed as per his word...


The loud noise Rev. 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

Wonder if the 1st seal is associated with this sound?

I know you said they weren't necessarily in order. How do you know for sure it's just a preview of events to come?

Hi,

How excellent is His name in all the earth!

I'm reading along C...It would fit some symbolism but l feel the need for caution unless the Lord continues this in me apart from your posts..

Hi,

I may owe you an apology. I did not realize that there was a Miki and MadMiki.
So, if you have received a reply that was out of the park...please, forgive.
I am so new to the computer...and hungry for the fellowship...anyway,

Shalom,
Signet

Miki,

The actual judgment events are held in check as noted in chapter 7. The 144,000 are sealed first and the multitude is seen in heaven. The trumpets do not blow until chapter 8. All of the six seals are opened and presented in advance of chapter 7. The Lord allows no judgment action against the earth until the sealing of the 144,000 is complete and the Church is in heaven. [Revelation 7:1-3]

The opening of all 7 seals take place before the Lord allows his judgment process to begin in chapter 8. The 7th is a short pause. This is quite clear and not difficult to understand. Also, the gramatical structure of prophetic visions often places the last condition of a series of components at the end (like the 6th seal) next to the beginning of the actual corresponding events. Another example of this is placing the condition of the 7th letter to the "professing" Church, which will be spewed out of the Lord's mouth and into the tribulation period which takes place next.

The seals are previews of the conditions of the tribulation period before the actual events take place. The actual events beginning from chapter 8 reflect these conditions. The spreading of the Gospel, the warfare, economic collapse, killing, martyrdom, and the response from unbelievers will all be present conditions that will exist in parallel, not one after the other, throughout the 70th week.

If you understand this truth and apply it, this will clear up much of the confusion that has been generated by those who do not. Placing the seals, trumpets, and vials in linear time lapse with the seals taking place first as actual events, before the next two sets, can not be reconciled with the rest of the details in Revelation. This approach results in pre-wrath, post-wrath, and partial future 70th week theories. Many struggle with this attempt and end up in futility. Revelation becomes a much clearer picture as do other related and necessary prophetic visions when the seals are viewed as prevailing conditions of the upcoming tribulation.

All I got to say is "Wow"........

I like all the in put......wish I could remember everything.....but my mind is like a sive....

Good job....Stephen....don't know you for I haven't been on much.....I get on now and then but this was a great thread.

I believe those who have accepted Jesus in thier hearts.....are saved by grace. I believe we all should grow and mature in our walk....and abide in Christ and obey the Word.

I believe those who are written in the book of the Lamb will be Raptured. I believe we have a visible church and an invisible church. The visible church goes with the flow....and re-invents parts of the Bible to fit their social or political agenda.

Then there is the invisible church (They believe the Bible is God's Word and have accepted Jesus into their hearts and are saved) who belong to some of these visible churches....and for whatever reason they stay. They stay to reach others... I don't know...but they stay. The invisible church is all over the world....they are the true body of Christ.

The visible church follows things like the DaVinc Code and accepts it or is open-minded to its beliefs....even tho it teachs Goddess worship and another Gospel. These people who follow after such teachings....maybe the ones that go through the Tribulation....and become beheaded or they maybe unbelievers who become saved during that time. Though they are members of a Chruch...memembership doesn't save you....so sad.....but I think a lot of people think like that. Salvation is a gift....and we are saved by the Grace of God in Jesus Christ. If we are truly saved our lives will be transformed....daily....as we abide in Jesus.

Okie-Dokie .....I'm gettng down from my soap box now. Just put my two cents in...

God Bless. marie<><

Thanks Stephen...

Signet l haven't gotten an email from you. I haven't read hardly anything of the MadMikki with two k's post's. I just don't have time. (Hi God's Lamb)

Anyway...So then you are saying the seals are a preview...the trumpets are the condition preceding the rapture and the viles are the actual events?

Stephen l hope you don't mind but since l got this in my mailbox this morning and it was the last thing l happened to read before coming to the forum l thought it appropriate to post it here.

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Revelation 5 - by Jack Kelley - www.gracethrufaith.com

The Scroll and the Lamb

Then I saw in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals. And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, "Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?" But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it. I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. (Rev 5:1-4) This scroll has been called the title deed to planet Earth. Scrolls normally had writing on one side only, but in a few cases the Lord writes on both sides. When He does it indicates that there's a judgment coming.

In Ezekiel 2 a scroll with writing on both sides meant that Israel was about to be judged, and Ezekiel was being chosen to bring the news to the other captives in Babylon that soon the whole nation would be joining them for a 70 year stay. In Zechariah 5, a flying scroll the same size as the tabernacle's Holy Place warned that those who failed to keep the Law would be banished from God's presence and their homes destroyed. Although this scroll mentioned only the commandment against theft on one side and only the one against false witness on the other, the fact that one was in the middle of the first stone tablet and the other was in the middle of the second one leads scholars to believe that they represent all 10 Commandments.

The reason John wept so bitterly is because he knew what was at stake here. Only someone who could redeem Planet Earth and return it to its rightful owner would be able to open the scroll, and no one could be found. Not in Heaven, not on Earth, not under the Earth. Without a qualified redeemer Earth would be lost for all eternity.

Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals." Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. (Rev. 5:5-6) There is someone worthy to open the scroll, after all! The fact that the word Lamb is capitalized here means that this is The Lamb of God from John 1:29. He's also the Lion of Judah from Genesis 49:9-10 and the Root of David from Isaiah 11:1-3. Since John describes Him as a Lamb looking as if it had been slain, we know He's still in human form, and still bears the scars of His crucifixion. This Lamb is the giver of the Holy Spirit, confirming that it's the Lord who has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals because He redeemed the planet at the same time He was saving us. (Romans 8:19-21)

I Didn't Know It Was Lost

How was the Earth lost in the first place? Some believe that in Eternity past, the one we call Satan was given the Earth as his kingdom. It was a gift in keeping with his stature as both the anointed cherub, in charge of the ones who guard the very Throne of God, and Worship Leader in the heavenly realms as well. He truly was the light bearer then (Lucifer means light bearer in Latin) clothed in every precious stone with a voice like a pipe organ. He was the model of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty, the ultimate created being.

But puffed up in the arrogance of self love and pride, he rebelled and was driven out in disgrace, his positions and his possessions taken from him, his kingdom laid waste. (Ezek. 28:13-17) He sat there amidst the ruin for who knows how long, powerless to do anything, until God said, "Let there be light," and all the angels shouted for joy. (Job 38:7)

When God created Adam five days later and gave him dominion over the Earth, Satan conspired to get it back. Indwelling a serpent, he tricked Adam and Eve out of their land, gaining back through deception that which he had lost through rebellion. In the process he had also divested Adam and Eve of their immortality, causing their deaths and the deaths of all their children. He immediately set about to rebuild his kingdom, becoming the prince of this world (John 12:31) and the god of this age (2 Cor. 4:4).

God's law requires that a next of kin redeem that which a family member has lost. According to the law a son could redeem what his father had lost, but in the transaction, Adam had become a sinner, disqualifying all of his sons from ever redeeming him. The coin of redemption was the blood of a sinless man, and all of Adam's sons were sinners, having been born in their father's likeness. (Gen. 5:3) Adam was a son of God (Luke 3:38) so only another son of God would suffice.

Since the sins of the fathers are visited upon the sons (Exod. 20:5) a woman could give birth to a sinless man, but only if she could do so without the aid of a husband. Thus, in the garden God announced that the seed of the woman would redeem what Satan had stolen, (Gen 3:15) a prophecy of the virgin birth. In due time, the Son of God, born of a virgin, gave His life to pay mankind's debt of sin and redeem Adam's stolen property, Planet Earth. All God (sinless) and all human (man), He is the only One in creation worthy to take the scroll and open its seals.

As Adam's Kinsman Redeemer, He paid the debt of sin owed by Adam's progeny and redeemed the property that Adam lost as well. Now He's come to take possession of that which He's paid for. Since the next of kin was also responsible for avenging the death of a family member, He also comes as Adam's Avenger of Blood, and that's one of the reasons why the rest of this book is the story of great judgments.

He came and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. And then he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song:

"You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men (us) for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them (us) to be a kingdom (kings) and priests to serve our God, and they (we) will reign on the earth." (Rev. 5:7-10) I've placed the more accurate translations of this passage in parentheses. The Greek word used here is a first person pronoun, the plural of me. It appears 173 times in the Bible as us and we, never as third person words like men or them or they. Also the Greek language uses the same word for king and kingdom, so you have to decide which one to use from the context. Kings fits better than kingdom. All my substitutions are consistent with the KJV translation.

Some of the modern translations take either the post trib or a-milliennial view or both and are therefore reluctant to show the raptured church in Heaven in Revelation 5. Instead, by changing the passage to the third person, they have the 24 elders sing about the church as if we're still on earth. But it doesn't work. The 24 elders are the church. This is a song for the redeemed and only the church can sing it. The King James version is correct.

Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang:

"Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Rev. 5:11-14) The powerful work done by George Frederic Handel in setting these words to music in his "Messiah" will pale into insignificance when compared to this angelic choir. No one knows just how big this choir is. Ten thousand was the largest number in use in those days. Writing today John might have used "millions and millions" just as easily.

C.H. Spurgeon wrote that the Greek word translated all (or every) had seven or eight different uses, and only on rare cases did any of them literally mean each and every one. More likely John meant that every classification of mankind was represented, the rich, the poor, the free, the enslaved, the Jew, the Gentile, etc. These were joined by the animals on land, the birds in the air, the fish of the sea, and even those in the underworld, who though they rebelled and await their judgment in chains, recognize the authority of The Christ. (James 2:19)

Like the four living creatures, I can only add, "Amen!"
_________________________________________________________________

So now at the trumpets?

Marie,

Thanks for the reply. I agree with all of your insight that you have posted. The Lord's Revelation to us is more precious than fine gold.

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein. [Revelation 1:3]

Miki,

No. I am saying that the first 6 seals are the preview of the prevailing conditions that will exist during the 7th week and they a