Question:
A native in a remote jungle somewhere dies without believing on the Lord Jesus, because he or she has never had an opportunity to do so. Would you say that God would grant mercy to that person even though we are all born of sin?
My own personal opinion would be yes, having never even known a Bible or heard of Christ. My thought would be that if inside them, since I believe God gives us a inate sense of a Creator, they have searched for in some way God/a Creator, within their heart, He would give them that opportunity to make a choice to believe in Jesus or not, the moment they died.
I know that might be far out there, because I'm just guessing really, but I would think with absolutely no opportunity for belief that there would be some form of mercy.
Thoughts?
Full Version: Dying Without Jesus, Without Ever Hearing Of Him
I agree.
I've read testimonies of Native Americans who worshiped "The Creator" and even predicted that strange white men would come with "Leaves of Life" to show them who God is.
For sure.
God's mercy is great.
I've read testimonies of Native Americans who worshiped "The Creator" and even predicted that strange white men would come with "Leaves of Life" to show them who God is.
For sure.
God's mercy is great.
[quote=Jack Lavictoire,May 18 2006, 08:59 PM]
Sounds like you guys are talking about a diffrent Gospel all together here.
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Not a different Gospel, though I see what you are saying, and that is why I brought this subject up, to get people's thoughts and reasons why or why not.
So you believe, biblically speaking of course, that throughout history since Jesus rose for our sins, that ANY native or person born in an isolated spot in the world and that never had a direct chance of hearing the Gospel would go to hell?
Would that be merciful on God's part toward that individual, given that it comes down to that person not having had the choice to accept or reject Him at all, since God says that He wishes that NOBODY should go to hell, but repent and believe?
Or would it just be how the cards were laid out and they were never meant to be saved in the first place because of the circumstance of their birthplace or situation?
Sounds like you guys are talking about a diffrent Gospel all together here.
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Not a different Gospel, though I see what you are saying, and that is why I brought this subject up, to get people's thoughts and reasons why or why not.
So you believe, biblically speaking of course, that throughout history since Jesus rose for our sins, that ANY native or person born in an isolated spot in the world and that never had a direct chance of hearing the Gospel would go to hell?
Would that be merciful on God's part toward that individual, given that it comes down to that person not having had the choice to accept or reject Him at all, since God says that He wishes that NOBODY should go to hell, but repent and believe?
Or would it just be how the cards were laid out and they were never meant to be saved in the first place because of the circumstance of their birthplace or situation?
Well Jack...we are going to have to disagree. He cannot return until His message has reached all the ends of the earth...and fact is, many will have died before His Word was brought to them. I cannot believe that He would turn His back on them, simply because they were in the wrong place, at the right time.
A native in a remote jungle somewhere dies without believing on the Lord Jesus, because he or she has never had an opportunity to do so. Would you say that God would grant mercy to that person even though we are all born of sin?
Isn't there a statement in the bible before the statement on men being without excuse like 'their voice went out to all the earth?' I would think that people who live in a remote jungle would have 100% more clout than a city dweller would have at the gates of heaven because they were not destroying the earth. Excuse? Could it be 'my car ran out of gas?'
Isn't there a statement in the bible before the statement on men being without excuse like 'their voice went out to all the earth?' I would think that people who live in a remote jungle would have 100% more clout than a city dweller would have at the gates of heaven because they were not destroying the earth. Excuse? Could it be 'my car ran out of gas?'
It is my understanding that man is given knowledge of God from birth. Of course if a person never hears about Jesus but still believes and worships God he can go to Heaven. He is only hell bound if he refuses Jesus.
I have asked myself this very same question in the past 2 weeks! 
A verse came to me: where there is no law, there is no sin.
Only God knows if these people are saved or not an only God can intervene. In this light, (knowing this), we just have to exercise our faith to believe these ignorant natives will go to Heaven!
A verse came to me: where there is no law, there is no sin.
Only God knows if these people are saved or not an only God can intervene. In this light, (knowing this), we just have to exercise our faith to believe these ignorant natives will go to Heaven!
I have to agree with senteami. Romans chapter 7 is a chapter that addresses the law and how it applies to sin and death.
Romans 1:20 in its fullness states, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, [B]being understood by the things that are made[/B], [B]even His eternal power and Godhead[/B], so that they are without excuse,"
This scripture suggests to me that God in His infinite wisdom, which exceeds anything we can understand, has placed a sort of 'clause' in this situation. There are remote tribes who recognize there is a Creator and worship such, instead of the creation. This scripture states that He is seen and understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power [B]and Godhead[/B].
In the Bible there are many instances where God has made an escape from death for those who intentionally violate the law, the most significant is Christ's death for our sins. But also, I think of the Adulteress who by all means should have been stoned to death, but Christ stood for her. These instances make it hard for me to believe that a our merciful Father would condemn a person to eternal death when they've never been witnessed to by a human.
Romans 1:20 in its fullness states, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, [B]being understood by the things that are made[/B], [B]even His eternal power and Godhead[/B], so that they are without excuse,"
This scripture suggests to me that God in His infinite wisdom, which exceeds anything we can understand, has placed a sort of 'clause' in this situation. There are remote tribes who recognize there is a Creator and worship such, instead of the creation. This scripture states that He is seen and understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power [B]and Godhead[/B].
In the Bible there are many instances where God has made an escape from death for those who intentionally violate the law, the most significant is Christ's death for our sins. But also, I think of the Adulteress who by all means should have been stoned to death, but Christ stood for her. These instances make it hard for me to believe that a our merciful Father would condemn a person to eternal death when they've never been witnessed to by a human.
18For God's [holy] wrath and indignation are revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who in their wickedness repress and hinder the truth and make it inoperative.
19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
[COLOR=blue]20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification[/COLOR]],
21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
19For that which is known about God is evident to them and made plain in their inner consciousness, because God [Himself] has shown it to them.
[COLOR=blue]20For ever since the creation of the world His invisible nature and attributes, that is, His eternal power and divinity, have been made intelligible and clearly discernible in and through the things that have been made (His handiworks). So [men] are without excuse [altogether without any defense or justification[/COLOR]],
21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
22Claiming to be wise, they became fools [professing to be smart, they made simpletons of themselves].
23And by them the glory and majesty and excellence of the immortal God were exchanged for and represented by images, resembling mortal man and birds and beasts and reptiles.
21Because when they knew and recognized Him as God, they did not honor and glorify Him as God or give Him thanks. But instead they became futile and [c]godless in their thinking [with vain imaginings, foolish reasoning, and stupid speculations] and their senseless minds were darkened.
When they knew him and recognized Him as God, they did not homor and glorify him...
These people have no excuse!
But I they did not know Him, how can they recognize Him as God, and how can they not glorify him?
Whatever the outcome is, I am going to stand by my faith and believe they too will be saved. Otherwise, nothing makes sense!
And you know what? I DO believe that more people will be saved that we think!
Remember our God doesn't think like we do, so if I cannot trust in His providence, in whom can I trust?
When they knew him and recognized Him as God, they did not homor and glorify him...
These people have no excuse!
But I they did not know Him, how can they recognize Him as God, and how can they not glorify him?
Whatever the outcome is, I am going to stand by my faith and believe they too will be saved. Otherwise, nothing makes sense!
And you know what? I DO believe that more people will be saved that we think!
Remember our God doesn't think like we do, so if I cannot trust in His providence, in whom can I trust?
senteami , 
one can also look at that scripture and see the other side of it, because if there are some people like those in Rom 1, then there must be those as well that came to God by seeing Him in nature and believing that He is.
I know of people like that Sadhu Sundar Singh (spelling?)is one of them. He cried out to God to reveal Himself (in India in the early part of last century) and Jesus came to him. There are plenty stories around the world, where people met Jesus, because their hearts cried out for His truth(which they say in nature) and when there was nobody to preach to them, He showed up.Praise God
love C
one can also look at that scripture and see the other side of it, because if there are some people like those in Rom 1, then there must be those as well that came to God by seeing Him in nature and believing that He is.I know of people like that Sadhu Sundar Singh (spelling?)is one of them. He cried out to God to reveal Himself (in India in the early part of last century) and Jesus came to him. There are plenty stories around the world, where people met Jesus, because their hearts cried out for His truth(which they say in nature) and when there was nobody to preach to them, He showed up.Praise God
love C
Thanks for the post, Cornelius. Isn't God good?! Oh, He's a good God!
<please don't shoot the messenger...>
Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but my understanding has always been that if one never hears the gospel, they are still not saved. Sincerity is not enough. It is a very uncomfortable idea, but seems more logical to me. My reasoning is this:
Jesus told his followers to go out and preach the gospel. Why preach it if a person can be saved having never heard it? It would seem that according to this train of thought, preaching the gospel to someone who has never heard it would then be in a WORSE position because now they have the chance to reject it. Knowing human nature, it would then seem that the more appropriate method would be to PREVENT the gospel being spread....nobody knows about the gospel, therefore everyone gets saved. I don't know...smells fishy to me.
Believing otherwise causes me to be more motivated to go out into the world and thump bibles with the best of 'em, because then preaching the gospel is clearly beneficial. Preaching the gospel takes on a much more serious tone and when someone repents the impact is just that much more moving, i.e. "this guy got SAVED!! WOOOOWWWW!"
Just my two cents worth.
Perhaps I'm in the minority here, but my understanding has always been that if one never hears the gospel, they are still not saved. Sincerity is not enough. It is a very uncomfortable idea, but seems more logical to me. My reasoning is this:
Jesus told his followers to go out and preach the gospel. Why preach it if a person can be saved having never heard it? It would seem that according to this train of thought, preaching the gospel to someone who has never heard it would then be in a WORSE position because now they have the chance to reject it. Knowing human nature, it would then seem that the more appropriate method would be to PREVENT the gospel being spread....nobody knows about the gospel, therefore everyone gets saved. I don't know...smells fishy to me.
Believing otherwise causes me to be more motivated to go out into the world and thump bibles with the best of 'em, because then preaching the gospel is clearly beneficial. Preaching the gospel takes on a much more serious tone and when someone repents the impact is just that much more moving, i.e. "this guy got SAVED!! WOOOOWWWW!"
Just my two cents worth.
Cornelius says:
"senteami , one can also look at that scripture and see the other side of it, because if there are some people like those in Rom 1, then there must be those as well that came to God by seeing Him in nature and believing that He is.
I know of people like that Sadhu Sundar Singh (spelling?)is one of them. He cried out to God to reveal Himself (in India in the early part of last century) and Jesus came to him. There are plenty stories around the world, where people met Jesus, because their hearts cried out for His truth(which they say in nature) and when there was nobody to preach to them, He showed up.Praise God
love C"
And a triple yea and amen to that Corny...
He even came to me when there was no one to tell and help.
"senteami ,
one can also look at that scripture and see the other side of it, because if there are some people like those in Rom 1, then there must be those as well that came to God by seeing Him in nature and believing that He is.I know of people like that Sadhu Sundar Singh (spelling?)is one of them. He cried out to God to reveal Himself (in India in the early part of last century) and Jesus came to him. There are plenty stories around the world, where people met Jesus, because their hearts cried out for His truth(which they say in nature) and when there was nobody to preach to them, He showed up.Praise God
love C"
And a triple yea and amen to that Corny...
He even came to me when there was no one to tell and help.
So true Miki..
GOD is good.
And he will heal the sick and raise the dead. Nothing is impossible from our father.
Holy is the Lamb of God.
IN JESUS name we profess, he will heal the wounded, help those afflected, lead the hopeless...
bend the hearts and minds of those seeking his face. His face is so beautiful...full of Glory in his mercy and Truth...who is like him...the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Let me offer this thought. Scripture says we must believe in Jesus and make him our lord and master. But is this referring to Jesus the man or Jesus God. What does it mean to make Jesus your Lord and Master? Let me suggest this. God is love. Where there is love there also is God. Satan can not dwell where love abides. Do you make Love your Master. Can not a person know Love (Jesus) with out knowing the story of Jesus? Can not a person be driven by love (Jesus) without knowing the stories of the Bible? It is about who rules your heart. Jesus the Man was a living example of what Love in a human looks like. You can make Jesus your master without knowing the name Jesus but knowing the name Love. Do you know who, what Jesus is? It is not about the name. He could have been named Frank for all it matters. It is about knowing Jesus (Love) and making that the ruler of your heart. Who rules the person’s heart? That is the only question that matters. Is it lust, greed, hate, pride, or Love (Jesus?)
God Bless,
K.D.
God Bless,
K.D.
Here is a verse that supports what it means to have salvation through Jesus (Love)
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
It is not about saying magic words, it is not about calling yourself Christian, and it is not even about knowing the name Jesus. It is about knowing Jesus, and making Love the ruler of your life.
Here is a question, Could a Buddhist know Jesus better than a Christian does, and not even know it.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
It is not about saying magic words, it is not about calling yourself Christian, and it is not even about knowing the name Jesus. It is about knowing Jesus, and making Love the ruler of your life.
Here is a question, Could a Buddhist know Jesus better than a Christian does, and not even know it.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
[quote=Kansasdad,May 31 2006, 04:31 PM]
Here is a verse that supports what it means to have salvation through Jesus (Love)
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
It is not about saying magic words, it is not about calling yourself Christian, and it is not even about knowing the name Jesus. It is about knowing Jesus, and making Love the ruler of your life.
Here is a question, Could a Buddhist know Jesus better than a Christian does, and not even know it.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
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a Buddhist Christian?
Here is a verse that supports what it means to have salvation through Jesus (Love)
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
It is not about saying magic words, it is not about calling yourself Christian, and it is not even about knowing the name Jesus. It is about knowing Jesus, and making Love the ruler of your life.
Here is a question, Could a Buddhist know Jesus better than a Christian does, and not even know it.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
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a Buddhist Christian?
I don't think you understood my point. You can know Jesus without knowing any story of the Bible. Salvation is about who rules your heart. No, my question is, can some one know Jesus better than some Christians even though he/she has never read one single line of the Bible, or Heard anyone speek of it. I don't think some Christians really know who/what Jesus is and what it actually means to make "LOVE" your Lord.
K.D.
K.D.
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 1 2006, 09:18 AM]
I don't think you understood my point. You can know Jesus without knowing any story of the Bible. Salvation is about who rules your heart. No, my question is, can some one know Jesus better than some Christians even though he/she has never read one single line of the Bible, or Heard anyone speek of it. I don't think some Christians really know who/what Jesus is and what it actually means to make "LOVE" your Lord.
K.D.
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come on KD. Love is the message Jesus brought but it doesn't guarantee
you everlasting life.
I don't think you understood my point. You can know Jesus without knowing any story of the Bible. Salvation is about who rules your heart. No, my question is, can some one know Jesus better than some Christians even though he/she has never read one single line of the Bible, or Heard anyone speek of it. I don't think some Christians really know who/what Jesus is and what it actually means to make "LOVE" your Lord.
K.D.
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come on KD. Love is the message Jesus brought but it doesn't guarantee
you everlasting life.
God is not limited on who he can save. His Word is Truth. He wills that all men shall be saved... not MANY men, but ALL, and this to His Glory. Every knee shall bow and tongue will confess that JESUS is Lord. There is no respect of persons with God. He WILL have all men saved. Whether we've heard it here or after we die, we WILL hear it. If Jesus preached to the captives in prison and set them free, who is to say God can't preach after the fact? It's our limited minds that want to set every evil person on fire in hell. Is not the same mind in others the same mind in yourself that needs renewal? The gospel is the good news to man, and the good news is that Jesus is the way to salvation. ALL men will be saved. Some to the resurrection of life and some to the resurrection of the damned, but God will purify each man and reward according to their deeds. The judgments are in our minds, in our way of thinking. We must PUT ON the MIND OF CHRIST and start living for Him, purifying our evil thoughts and bringing EVERY thought into captivity (binding it) to allow the love of God to flow through us. Only the clean, the righteous will enter the kingdom of God, and God is trying us by FIRE to consume all of our unclean thoughts. Start looking for the love of God in each and every person you see. God loves them as much as he does you. God is God of ALL, a God of LOVE, a God of MERCY. He tries and purifies and each person will go through the judgments of God so that He can truly have all be swallowed up as ONE. There will be no more death... all that will be left will be the Christ in you, in a many membered body with Christ Jesus as the head. The anointing will run down all the way to the feet. We are all one day going to be a part of this celebration, but the first fruits of God, the SONS of God will come in first, and then the rest.
Everyone will have a chance to hear, and each in God's time. He has a plan and a purpose for this creation and for your life. Do you know your purpose in life? God has purposed his SON Jesus to have brethren, and MANY sons will come to know HIM as Lord. Not all will choose to enter in first. But when the SONS come to full maturity, they will usher in the Kingdom at the Feast of Tabernacles. Will you be a Son or be content to just be saved? Whether a son or not, everyone will be saved! I offer this post with love, not condemnation.
Everyone will have a chance to hear, and each in God's time. He has a plan and a purpose for this creation and for your life. Do you know your purpose in life? God has purposed his SON Jesus to have brethren, and MANY sons will come to know HIM as Lord. Not all will choose to enter in first. But when the SONS come to full maturity, they will usher in the Kingdom at the Feast of Tabernacles. Will you be a Son or be content to just be saved? Whether a son or not, everyone will be saved! I offer this post with love, not condemnation.
[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 1 2006, 09:38 AM]
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 1 2006, 09:18 AM]
I don't think you understood my point. You can know Jesus without knowing any story of the Bible. Salvation is about who rules your heart. No, my question is, can some one know Jesus better than some Christians even though he/she has never read one single line of the Bible, or Heard anyone speek of it. I don't think some Christians really know who/what Jesus is and what it actually means to make "LOVE" your Lord.
K.D.
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come on KD. Love is the message Jesus brought but it doesn't guarantee
you everlasting life.
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Lets try this. Think about Jesus/God. It is Jesus God that salvations comes through. Not Jesus/Man. You can be ruled by Jesus God with out ever knowing who Jesus/man was. Albeit much more difficult. Jesus/man was the living message that was necessary for the sacrifice needed to purchase our salvation. However, knowing the story of Jesus is not what is necessary. Many Christians know the story, and then somehow being among this enlightened crowd gives them salvation. It does not. Does Jesus/God rule your heart? Do you know who Jesus God is? I submit that a person can be ruled by Jesus/God. In fact then they "Know" Jesus, yet intellectually they have never heard or read of Jesus/man.
So I am suggesting that it is possible that a person could "know" Jesus without knowing the Gospel account of Jesus, and in some cases they may "Know" Jesus better than a person who does know the Gospel account. So that is why you cannot judge a man whether Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or Protestant. The question is who rules their heart.
God Bless,
K.D.
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 1 2006, 09:18 AM]
I don't think you understood my point. You can know Jesus without knowing any story of the Bible. Salvation is about who rules your heart. No, my question is, can some one know Jesus better than some Christians even though he/she has never read one single line of the Bible, or Heard anyone speek of it. I don't think some Christians really know who/what Jesus is and what it actually means to make "LOVE" your Lord.
K.D.
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come on KD. Love is the message Jesus brought but it doesn't guarantee
you everlasting life.
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[/quote]
Lets try this. Think about Jesus/God. It is Jesus God that salvations comes through. Not Jesus/Man. You can be ruled by Jesus God with out ever knowing who Jesus/man was. Albeit much more difficult. Jesus/man was the living message that was necessary for the sacrifice needed to purchase our salvation. However, knowing the story of Jesus is not what is necessary. Many Christians know the story, and then somehow being among this enlightened crowd gives them salvation. It does not. Does Jesus/God rule your heart? Do you know who Jesus God is? I submit that a person can be ruled by Jesus/God. In fact then they "Know" Jesus, yet intellectually they have never heard or read of Jesus/man.
So I am suggesting that it is possible that a person could "know" Jesus without knowing the Gospel account of Jesus, and in some cases they may "Know" Jesus better than a person who does know the Gospel account. So that is why you cannot judge a man whether Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or Protestant. The question is who rules their heart.
God Bless,
K.D.
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 1 2006, 12:24 PM]
[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 1 2006, 09:38 AM]
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 1 2006, 09:18 AM]
I don't think you understood my point. You can know Jesus without knowing any story of the Bible. Salvation is about who rules your heart. No, my question is, can some one know Jesus better than some Christians even though he/she has never read one single line of the Bible, or Heard anyone speek of it. I don't think some Christians really know who/what Jesus is and what it actually means to make "LOVE" your Lord.
K.D.
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come on KD. Love is the message Jesus brought but it doesn't guarantee
you everlasting life.
[right][snapback]64999[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Lets try this. Think about Jesus/God. It is Jesus God that salvations comes through. Not Jesus/Man. You can be ruled by Jesus God with out ever knowing who Jesus/man was. Albeit much more difficult. Jesus/man was the living message that was necessary for the sacrifice needed to purchase our salvation. However, knowing the story of Jesus is not what is necessary. Many Christians know the story, and then somehow being among this enlightened crowd gives them salvation. It does not. Does Jesus/God rule your heart? Do you know who Jesus God is? I submit that a person can be ruled by Jesus/God. In fact then they "Know" Jesus, yet intellectually they have never heard or read of Jesus/man.
So I am suggesting that it is possible that a person could "know" Jesus without knowing the Gospel account of Jesus, and in some cases they may "Know" Jesus better than a person who does know the Gospel account. So that is why you cannot judge a man whether Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or Protestant. The question is who rules their heart.
God Bless,
K.D.
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I guess the Holy Spirit is going to the unemployment line? hee hee
well...in all seriousness...Love is good. I agree.
God is Love. But God doesn't fall short and as long as there is
blood in our bodies...we will NEVER "be" love or even be near being perfect.
We will fall short whether its conditional or unconditional love towards some one else.
But is it really about LOVE? Love is the message....true.
God loves all of His creation but you think He created us to love Him?
Do you think He created us to love each other and that's the purpose or point?
I'm not sure how far you are in studies. I know you know a bit of history.
I'm not even gonna go into RCC stuff because all that is over with me.
We are talking about good stuff here that puts all that interpretaion to the side.
Are we here on earth because of LOVE?
Actually I will even go out on a limb and say "yes. we are" but it has nothing to do
with mankind and our "love" because we've fallen short through out time.
From Adam til the Millenium Kingdon....we've fallen.
It's written and it's prophesized (sp?)...we will fail.
It's not all about love. IMHO
[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 1 2006, 09:38 AM]
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 1 2006, 09:18 AM]
I don't think you understood my point. You can know Jesus without knowing any story of the Bible. Salvation is about who rules your heart. No, my question is, can some one know Jesus better than some Christians even though he/she has never read one single line of the Bible, or Heard anyone speek of it. I don't think some Christians really know who/what Jesus is and what it actually means to make "LOVE" your Lord.
K.D.
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come on KD. Love is the message Jesus brought but it doesn't guarantee
you everlasting life.
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Lets try this. Think about Jesus/God. It is Jesus God that salvations comes through. Not Jesus/Man. You can be ruled by Jesus God with out ever knowing who Jesus/man was. Albeit much more difficult. Jesus/man was the living message that was necessary for the sacrifice needed to purchase our salvation. However, knowing the story of Jesus is not what is necessary. Many Christians know the story, and then somehow being among this enlightened crowd gives them salvation. It does not. Does Jesus/God rule your heart? Do you know who Jesus God is? I submit that a person can be ruled by Jesus/God. In fact then they "Know" Jesus, yet intellectually they have never heard or read of Jesus/man.
So I am suggesting that it is possible that a person could "know" Jesus without knowing the Gospel account of Jesus, and in some cases they may "Know" Jesus better than a person who does know the Gospel account. So that is why you cannot judge a man whether Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or Protestant. The question is who rules their heart.
God Bless,
K.D.
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I guess the Holy Spirit is going to the unemployment line? hee hee
well...in all seriousness...Love is good. I agree.
God is Love. But God doesn't fall short and as long as there is
blood in our bodies...we will NEVER "be" love or even be near being perfect.
We will fall short whether its conditional or unconditional love towards some one else.
But is it really about LOVE? Love is the message....true.
God loves all of His creation but you think He created us to love Him?
Do you think He created us to love each other and that's the purpose or point?
I'm not sure how far you are in studies. I know you know a bit of history.
I'm not even gonna go into RCC stuff because all that is over with me.
We are talking about good stuff here that puts all that interpretaion to the side.
Are we here on earth because of LOVE?
Actually I will even go out on a limb and say "yes. we are" but it has nothing to do
with mankind and our "love" because we've fallen short through out time.
From Adam til the Millenium Kingdon....we've fallen.
It's written and it's prophesized (sp?)...we will fail.
It's not all about love. IMHO
c-los,
That's a good word, and no, it's not ALL about love, it's about DIVINE love, justice, judgment, bringing creation to perfection because perfect love casts out fear and every evil thing. God created evil so that we could see love. Without evil, if everything was love we would not know the length, depth, height and breadth of God's love for us. He does not need us to LOVE him, He wants obedience. God's love is tried and true and without our being tried, we can't be like Jesus. So, I guess it's about love but it's also about our being tried in the fires of judgment... so that we can be made to Love like God loves... IMHO too!
That's a good word, and no, it's not ALL about love, it's about DIVINE love, justice, judgment, bringing creation to perfection because perfect love casts out fear and every evil thing. God created evil so that we could see love. Without evil, if everything was love we would not know the length, depth, height and breadth of God's love for us. He does not need us to LOVE him, He wants obedience. God's love is tried and true and without our being tried, we can't be like Jesus. So, I guess it's about love but it's also about our being tried in the fires of judgment... so that we can be made to Love like God loves... IMHO too!
I am going to be gone for a few days and am totally swamped right now. I will respond next week. I sill am not getting my thoughts understood. I will try again on Tuesday.
K.D.
K.D.
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 2 2006, 12:01 PM]
I am going to be gone for a few days and am totally swamped right now. I will respond next week. I sill am not getting my thoughts understood. I will try again on Tuesday.
K.D.
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no prob KD.
If you're just asking in general about a Budhist knowing Jesus without
knowing the gospel then the answer is simply "no."
doesnt really mater how at ease or loving the buddhist is.
Love is an emotional quality that doesn't give you salvation.
It may give you blessings because that love will be directed to others but that's about it.
Atheists love people all day everyday but do they know Chirst?
come on now....
I am going to be gone for a few days and am totally swamped right now. I will respond next week. I sill am not getting my thoughts understood. I will try again on Tuesday.
K.D.
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no prob KD.
If you're just asking in general about a Budhist knowing Jesus without
knowing the gospel then the answer is simply "no."
doesnt really mater how at ease or loving the buddhist is.
Love is an emotional quality that doesn't give you salvation.
It may give you blessings because that love will be directed to others but that's about it.
Atheists love people all day everyday but do they know Chirst?
come on now....
c-los,
You're speaking about the emotions of love. This is carnal. Love is unconditional, it does not boast or brag, it is kind and patient. The kind of love that God has for us is not the same kind of love that we offer each other here. Only when that Love is transmitted into our Spirits can we love by the love of God, not seeing people by outer appearances, or with emotions tainted by our past, but by the love that doesn't judge, doesn't ask for anything in return, always giving but not having to receive. This is true, unconditional love. Think of Mother Teresa... the kind of love she had is the kind of Love that God has for us.... that Jesus would lay down his life for his friends. There is no greater love than this.
Back to a Buddhist coming to the knowledge of Christ without the word being proclaimed to them, I don't say it's impossible, but improbable. For how can a person believe who has not heard? One must tell others, this is how God's plan and purpose works. Obedience is love.
You're speaking about the emotions of love. This is carnal. Love is unconditional, it does not boast or brag, it is kind and patient. The kind of love that God has for us is not the same kind of love that we offer each other here. Only when that Love is transmitted into our Spirits can we love by the love of God, not seeing people by outer appearances, or with emotions tainted by our past, but by the love that doesn't judge, doesn't ask for anything in return, always giving but not having to receive. This is true, unconditional love. Think of Mother Teresa... the kind of love she had is the kind of Love that God has for us.... that Jesus would lay down his life for his friends. There is no greater love than this.
Back to a Buddhist coming to the knowledge of Christ without the word being proclaimed to them, I don't say it's impossible, but improbable. For how can a person believe who has not heard? One must tell others, this is how God's plan and purpose works. Obedience is love.
[quote=Shaun333,May 19 2006, 08:40 AM]
Question:
A native in a remote jungle somewhere dies without believing on the Lord Jesus, because he or she has never had an opportunity to do so. Would you say that God would grant mercy to that person even though we are all born of sin?
My own personal opinion would be yes, having never even known a Bible or heard of Christ. My thought would be that if inside them, since I believe God gives us a inate sense of a Creator, they have searched for in some way God/a Creator, within their heart, He would give them that opportunity to make a choice to believe in Jesus or not, the moment they died.
I know that might be far out there, because I'm just guessing really, but I would think with absolutely no opportunity for belief that there would be some form of mercy.
Thoughts?
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Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED).
Rom 2:14 For when the GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 WHICH SHEW THE WORK OF THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 IN THE DAY WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Therefore, if that native in a remote jungle does those things from his heart which are pleasing to God (eg, caring for and loving each member of his tribe, providing for his family, honest, not being vengeful, not wicked and decietful, etc.) with a good conscience, then he will be righteously judged by God ACCORDING TO THE ABUNDANCE OF HIS HEART.
http://heavenlycommunion.iphorum.com
In Him
Russell
Question:
A native in a remote jungle somewhere dies without believing on the Lord Jesus, because he or she has never had an opportunity to do so. Would you say that God would grant mercy to that person even though we are all born of sin?
My own personal opinion would be yes, having never even known a Bible or heard of Christ. My thought would be that if inside them, since I believe God gives us a inate sense of a Creator, they have searched for in some way God/a Creator, within their heart, He would give them that opportunity to make a choice to believe in Jesus or not, the moment they died.
I know that might be far out there, because I'm just guessing really, but I would think with absolutely no opportunity for belief that there would be some form of mercy.
Thoughts?
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Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (FOR NOT THE HEARERS OF THE LAW ARE JUST BEFORE GOD, BUT THE DOERS OF THE LAW SHALL BE JUSTIFIED).
Rom 2:14 For when the GENTILES, WHICH HAVE NOT THE LAW, DO BY NATURE THE THINGS CONTAINED IN THE LAW, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 WHICH SHEW THE WORK OF THE LAW WRITTEN IN THEIR HEARTS, THEIR CONSCIENCE ALSO BEARING WITNESS, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Rom 2:16 IN THE DAY WHEN GOD SHALL JUDGE THE SECRETS OF MEN by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Therefore, if that native in a remote jungle does those things from his heart which are pleasing to God (eg, caring for and loving each member of his tribe, providing for his family, honest, not being vengeful, not wicked and decietful, etc.) with a good conscience, then he will be righteously judged by God ACCORDING TO THE ABUNDANCE OF HIS HEART.
http://heavenlycommunion.iphorum.com
In Him
Russell
That's a wonderful, Holy Spirit inspired answer to a dark world! Thank you Russell!!!!
this thread went off coarse.
KD was talking about a buddhist can actually know the Lord since his heart is filled with peace and love.
He never picked up the bible and let's say...just for grins...he rejected it.
He knows the Lord since God equals love.
true or false?
i think that's what he means... *scratches head*
KD was talking about a buddhist can actually know the Lord since his heart is filled with peace and love.
He never picked up the bible and let's say...just for grins...he rejected it.
He knows the Lord since God equals love.
true or false?
i think that's what he means... *scratches head*
C-los, I think what Russell meant here is that God will judge that person on what that person knows. Here is an example of what you DO know Can HURT YOU! You are responsible for things you do know, and if you don't do them after you have heard them, then you will be judged. But a person never hearing the Truth presented to him shall not be judged by the things he does not know. He may experience love and contribute it to a higher power or to a different religion, but to say He will be judged according to the Bible, I don't believe that. God has a plan and he will bring it to pass, whether that person is supposed to hear the Gospel or not. I believe all will have a chance at some point or another. With God NOTHING is impossible! Amen?
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 1 2006, 12:24 PM]
Lets try this. Think about Jesus/God.
[B] It is Jesus God that salvations comes through. [/B]
Not Jesus/Man.
[B]You can be ruled by Jesus God with out ever knowing who Jesus/man was. [/B] Albeit much more difficult.
[B]Jesus/man was the living message that was necessary for the sacrifice needed to purchase our salvation. [/B]
However, knowing the story of Jesus is not what is necessary. Many Christians know the story, and then somehow being among this enlightened crowd gives them salvation. It does not. Does Jesus/God rule your heart? Do you know who Jesus God is? I submit that a person can be ruled by Jesus/God. In fact then they "Know" Jesus, yet intellectually they have never heard or read of Jesus/man.
[B]So I am suggesting that it is possible that a person could "know" Jesus without knowing the Gospel account of Jesus, and in some cases they may "Know" Jesus better than a person who does know the Gospel account. [/B]
So that is why you cannot judge a man whether Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or Protestant. The question is who rules their heart.
God Bless,
K.D.
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re-read this LightIDP. i think these are KD's main points. i hate it that the tags don't work.
If you put your money on love and humanity then you may agree with that.
I'm not putting my faith on those points.
bless you all.
Lets try this. Think about Jesus/God.
[B] It is Jesus God that salvations comes through. [/B]
Not Jesus/Man.
[B]You can be ruled by Jesus God with out ever knowing who Jesus/man was. [/B] Albeit much more difficult.
[B]Jesus/man was the living message that was necessary for the sacrifice needed to purchase our salvation. [/B]
However, knowing the story of Jesus is not what is necessary. Many Christians know the story, and then somehow being among this enlightened crowd gives them salvation. It does not. Does Jesus/God rule your heart? Do you know who Jesus God is? I submit that a person can be ruled by Jesus/God. In fact then they "Know" Jesus, yet intellectually they have never heard or read of Jesus/man.
[B]So I am suggesting that it is possible that a person could "know" Jesus without knowing the Gospel account of Jesus, and in some cases they may "Know" Jesus better than a person who does know the Gospel account. [/B]
So that is why you cannot judge a man whether Buddhist, Muslim, Catholic, or Protestant. The question is who rules their heart.
God Bless,
K.D.
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re-read this LightIDP. i think these are KD's main points. i hate it that the tags don't work.
If you put your money on love and humanity then you may agree with that.
I'm not putting my faith on those points.
bless you all.
I agree C-los... thanks for reposting the main points. I guess we'll wait till KD comes back and clears it all up for us! :-)
[quote=Cornelius,May 19 2006, 04:18 PM]
senteami , one can also look at that scripture and see the other side of it, because if there are some people like those in Rom 1, then there must be those as well that came to God by seeing Him in nature and believing that He is.
I know of people like that Sadhu Sundar Singh (spelling?)is one of them. He cried out to God to reveal Himself (in India in the early part of last century) and Jesus came to him. There are plenty stories around the world, where people met Jesus, because their hearts cried out for His truth(which they say in nature) and when there was nobody to preach to them, He showed up.Praise God
love C
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Hi,
I want to share a precious story. A brother in Christ who was a printer had
followed God's leading to take his printing press to Burma and Palestine back
in the day before Israel was in existence. When I met him he did some
printing for a Passover outreach dinner for the congregation I attended at
the time. He was so excited about the Passover...and would share many
wonderous exploits for the Lord.
In those days, they went forth...God would raise up people along the way
to underwrite the passage...and he and wife would go. He used him mightly
On this particular trip into the Burma region of Asia...they used pack animals
and found a guide to help them communicate with the villagers. He learned
enough of the language to communicate passages of the New Testament
for a saving knowledge of Jesus
At one of the villages, the pivotal point of his journey and this story, he
printed up the verses...and began ministering...one man was so overjoyed
and said to him....."I know Him", excitedly, "now I know His name". That man
in Burma had his heart's cry answered when the man of God showed up and
confirmed the Word to him. The printer was a humble man...had a little
hand held press...carved the letters as he learned the languages...used a
mule to carry the Word.
He truly was an elder in my life...and I miss him
like a favored grandfather...
"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth upon him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
Blessings,
Signet
senteami ,
one can also look at that scripture and see the other side of it, because if there are some people like those in Rom 1, then there must be those as well that came to God by seeing Him in nature and believing that He is.I know of people like that Sadhu Sundar Singh (spelling?)is one of them. He cried out to God to reveal Himself (in India in the early part of last century) and Jesus came to him. There are plenty stories around the world, where people met Jesus, because their hearts cried out for His truth(which they say in nature) and when there was nobody to preach to them, He showed up.Praise God
love C
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[/quote]
Hi,
I want to share a precious story. A brother in Christ who was a printer had
followed God's leading to take his printing press to Burma and Palestine back
in the day before Israel was in existence. When I met him he did some
printing for a Passover outreach dinner for the congregation I attended at
the time. He was so excited about the Passover...and would share many
wonderous exploits for the Lord.
In those days, they went forth...God would raise up people along the way
to underwrite the passage...and he and wife would go. He used him mightly
On this particular trip into the Burma region of Asia...they used pack animals
and found a guide to help them communicate with the villagers. He learned
enough of the language to communicate passages of the New Testament
for a saving knowledge of Jesus
At one of the villages, the pivotal point of his journey and this story, he
printed up the verses...and began ministering...one man was so overjoyed
and said to him....."I know Him", excitedly, "now I know His name". That man
in Burma had his heart's cry answered when the man of God showed up and
confirmed the Word to him. The printer was a humble man...had a little
hand held press...carved the letters as he learned the languages...used a
mule to carry the Word.
He truly was an elder in my life...and I miss him
like a favored grandfather...
"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth upon him, should not perish, but have everlasting life."
John 3:16
Blessings,
Signet
... back on the origional subject:
Is it possible that the souls of the people who never were introduced to God/Christ in the first place might have never accepted him anyways, even if they had the chance?
... just a thought.
Is it possible that the souls of the people who never were introduced to God/Christ in the first place might have never accepted him anyways, even if they had the chance?
... just a thought.
[quote=TheLordsServant,Jun 5 2006, 10:49 PM]
... back on the origional subject:
Is it possible that the souls of the people who never were introduced to God/Christ in the first place might have never accepted him anyways, even if they had the chance?
... just a thought.
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you'll never know til they've run their course.
... back on the origional subject:
Is it possible that the souls of the people who never were introduced to God/Christ in the first place might have never accepted him anyways, even if they had the chance?
... just a thought.
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[/quote]
you'll never know til they've run their course.
[quote=TheLordsServant,Jun 5 2006, 11:49 PM]
... back on the origional subject:
Is it possible that the souls of the people who never were introduced to God/Christ in the first place might have never accepted him anyways, even if they had the chance?
... just a thought.
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==================
Interesting point, and thanks for suggesting we get back on the subject, lol.
I have thought that as well, but being a merciful God, you would think that there would be some kind of choice, even at the end, if they had never heard of Yeshua.
They may not even believe in the Lord then when given that choice, but I cannot believe that they wouldn't be given that choice, since God desires that nobody would end up in hell. It is by our own choice that we reject or believe in God.
Having no chance at all would be strange to say the least. Unfortunately, we cannot understand everything and the ways of Mighty God are WAY beyond our capacity. I personally would like to think natives for example would be given a choice in the matter.
... back on the origional subject:
Is it possible that the souls of the people who never were introduced to God/Christ in the first place might have never accepted him anyways, even if they had the chance?
... just a thought.
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==================
Interesting point, and thanks for suggesting we get back on the subject, lol.
I have thought that as well, but being a merciful God, you would think that there would be some kind of choice, even at the end, if they had never heard of Yeshua.
They may not even believe in the Lord then when given that choice, but I cannot believe that they wouldn't be given that choice, since God desires that nobody would end up in hell. It is by our own choice that we reject or believe in God.
Having no chance at all would be strange to say the least. Unfortunately, we cannot understand everything and the ways of Mighty God are WAY beyond our capacity. I personally would like to think natives for example would be given a choice in the matter.
I still go back to
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
Lets try this, Describe Jesus/God, Not Jesus/Man. The Bible says that salvation comes from making Jesus your lord and Master. He is the ruler of your heart. I still think that many Christians do not know what that means. It is not about head knowledge of the story of Jesus. Maybe the Budist example is adding confusion. Anyone who is ruled by Jesus Christ will find salvation through Jesus Christ. What does that mean? Can a person be ruled by Jesus Christ and not know the story of the Bible?
K.D.
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
Lets try this, Describe Jesus/God, Not Jesus/Man. The Bible says that salvation comes from making Jesus your lord and Master. He is the ruler of your heart. I still think that many Christians do not know what that means. It is not about head knowledge of the story of Jesus. Maybe the Budist example is adding confusion. Anyone who is ruled by Jesus Christ will find salvation through Jesus Christ. What does that mean? Can a person be ruled by Jesus Christ and not know the story of the Bible?
K.D.
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 6 2006, 10:56 AM]
I still go back to
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
Lets try this, Describe Jesus/God, Not Jesus/Man. The Bible says that salvation comes from making Jesus your lord and Master. He is the ruler of your heart. I still think that many Christians do not know what that means. It is not about head knowledge of the story of Jesus. Maybe the Budist example is adding confusion. Anyone who is ruled by Jesus Christ will find salvation through Jesus Christ. What does that mean? Can a person be ruled by Jesus Christ and not know the story of the Bible?
K.D.
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I think you're right.
However, my perception of Jesus Christ is one thing while someone else thinks otherwise.
Unless you study the bible and grasp scriptures well then you can find out who He really is.
I'm seeing your point about a Buddhist saying they know Christ without ever reading about Him (and His story) is an assumption that YOU may think you know who Jesus is. You're basing that out of your perception...you may or may not know.
George Bush, a navy seal, or a fire-fighter may be more Christ-like than a buddhist depends on a persons perception. They may be Christ-like all day long but let's not confuse that with salvation.
Salvation is based off John 3:16
I still go back to
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
Lets try this, Describe Jesus/God, Not Jesus/Man. The Bible says that salvation comes from making Jesus your lord and Master. He is the ruler of your heart. I still think that many Christians do not know what that means. It is not about head knowledge of the story of Jesus. Maybe the Budist example is adding confusion. Anyone who is ruled by Jesus Christ will find salvation through Jesus Christ. What does that mean? Can a person be ruled by Jesus Christ and not know the story of the Bible?
K.D.
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[/quote]
I think you're right.
However, my perception of Jesus Christ is one thing while someone else thinks otherwise.
Unless you study the bible and grasp scriptures well then you can find out who He really is.
I'm seeing your point about a Buddhist saying they know Christ without ever reading about Him (and His story) is an assumption that YOU may think you know who Jesus is. You're basing that out of your perception...you may or may not know.
George Bush, a navy seal, or a fire-fighter may be more Christ-like than a buddhist depends on a persons perception. They may be Christ-like all day long but let's not confuse that with salvation.
Salvation is based off John 3:16
[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 6 2006, 11:34 AM]
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 6 2006, 10:56 AM]
I still go back to
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
Lets try this, Describe Jesus/God, Not Jesus/Man. The Bible says that salvation comes from making Jesus your lord and Master. He is the ruler of your heart. I still think that many Christians do not know what that means. It is not about head knowledge of the story of Jesus. Maybe the Budist example is adding confusion. Anyone who is ruled by Jesus Christ will find salvation through Jesus Christ. What does that mean? Can a person be ruled by Jesus Christ and not know the story of the Bible?
K.D.
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[/quote]
I think you're right.
However, my perception of Jesus Christ is one thing while someone else thinks otherwise.
[COLOR=red]Unless you study the bible and grasp scriptures well then you can find out who He really is.[/COLOR]I'm seeing your point about a Buddhist saying they know Christ without ever reading about Him (and His story) is an assumption that YOU may think you know who Jesus is. You're basing that out of your perception...you may or may not know.
George Bush, a navy seal, or a fire-fighter may be more Christ-like than a buddhist depends on a persons perception. They may be Christ-like all day long but let's not confuse that with salvation.
Salvation is based off John 3:16
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16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God. 22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim; because there was much water there; and they came and were baptized. 24 For John was not yet cast into prison. 25 And there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews concerning purification: 26 And they came to John, and said to him: Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou gavest testimony, behold he baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered, and said: A man cannot receive any thing, unless it be given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves do bear me witness, that I said, I am not Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, who standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above, is above all. He that is of the earth, of the earth he is, and of the earth he speaketh. He that cometh from heaven, is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth: and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony, hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent, speaketh the words of God: for God doth not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loveth the Son: and he hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Two questions, Can you believe in Jesus if you have never heard the gospel?
and can you clairify this statement,
[COLOR=red]Unless you study the bible and grasp scriptures well then you can find out who He really is.[/COLOR]
K.D.
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 6 2006, 10:56 AM]
I still go back to
Romans 2:14-16
"(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares"
Lets try this, Describe Jesus/God, Not Jesus/Man. The Bible says that salvation comes from making Jesus your lord and Master. He is the ruler of your heart. I still think that many Christians do not know what that means. It is not about head knowledge of the story of Jesus. Maybe the Budist example is adding confusion. Anyone who is ruled by Jesus Christ will find salvation through Jesus Christ. What does that mean? Can a person be ruled by Jesus Christ and not know the story of the Bible?
K.D.
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I think you're right.
However, my perception of Jesus Christ is one thing while someone else thinks otherwise.
[COLOR=red]Unless you study the bible and grasp scriptures well then you can find out who He really is.[/COLOR]I'm seeing your point about a Buddhist saying they know Christ without ever reading about Him (and His story) is an assumption that YOU may think you know who Jesus is. You're basing that out of your perception...you may or may not know.
George Bush, a navy seal, or a fire-fighter may be more Christ-like than a buddhist depends on a persons perception. They may be Christ-like all day long but let's not confuse that with salvation.
Salvation is based off John 3:16
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16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world, to judge the world, but that the world may be saved by him. 18 He that believeth in him is not judged. But he that doth not believe, is already judged: because he believeth not in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: because the light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the light: for their works were evil. 20 For every one that doth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that doth truth, cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, because they are done in God. 22 After these things Jesus and his disciples came into the land of Judea: and there he abode with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Ennon near Salim; because there was much water there; and they came and were baptized. 24 For John was not yet cast into prison. 25 And there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews concerning purification: 26 And they came to John, and said to him: Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou gavest testimony, behold he baptizeth, and all men come to him. 27 John answered, and said: A man cannot receive any thing, unless it be given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves do bear me witness, that I said, I am not Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride, is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, who standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth with joy because of the bridegroom's voice. This my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease. 31 He that cometh from above, is above all. He that is of the earth, of the earth he is, and of the earth he speaketh. He that cometh from heaven, is above all. 32 And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth: and no man receiveth his testimony. 33 He that hath received his testimony, hath set to his seal that God is true. 34 For he whom God hath sent, speaketh the words of God: for God doth not give the Spirit by measure. 35 The Father loveth the Son: and he hath given all things into his hand. 36 He that believeth in the Son, hath life everlasting; but he that believeth not the Son, shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Two questions, Can you believe in Jesus if you have never heard the gospel?
and can you clairify this statement,
[COLOR=red]Unless you study the bible and grasp scriptures well then you can find out who He really is.[/COLOR]
K.D.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is where I am getting my thoughts. It is not enough to just know who Jesus is. The people in Matthew 7 Knew who Jesus was. Yet Jesus/God says I never knew you. So here we see it is not really about whether we know Jesus, but rather does Jesus know us. If our hearts are ruled by divine love then we are ruled by Jesus, and Jesus knows us, for we have invited him in to dwell. I submit that a person can invite Jesus in to rule their heart without ever knowing the story of the Gospel. One can recognize the light and the darkness, and choose to be ruled by the Light.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is where I am getting my thoughts. It is not enough to just know who Jesus is. The people in Matthew 7 Knew who Jesus was. Yet Jesus/God says I never knew you. So here we see it is not really about whether we know Jesus, but rather does Jesus know us. If our hearts are ruled by divine love then we are ruled by Jesus, and Jesus knows us, for we have invited him in to dwell. I submit that a person can invite Jesus in to rule their heart without ever knowing the story of the Gospel. One can recognize the light and the darkness, and choose to be ruled by the Light.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 7 2006, 11:08 AM]
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is where I am getting my thoughts. It is not enough to just know who Jesus is. The people in Matthew 7 Knew who Jesus was. Yet Jesus/God says I never knew you. So here we see it is not really about whether we know Jesus, but rather does Jesus know us. If our hearts are ruled by divine love then we are ruled by Jesus, and Jesus knows us, for we have invited him in to dwell. I submit that a person can invite Jesus in to rule their heart without ever knowing the story of the Gospel. One can recognize the light and the darkness, and choose to be ruled by the Light.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
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KD you keep heading back to divine love? you keep emphasising on love ruling your heart.
Do you think Mathew 7 is talking to people that didn't have love?
here it is again:
"19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."
He called them "evil doers."
What is evil?
Anything that is against the word of God!
FROM OLD TESTAMENT AAAAAAAAAALL THE WAY TO THE NEW.
It will be idolism for those that "practiced" it.
It will be for those that 99% of the sermon was about topics had nothing to do with the word of God but more about feeling good about yourself and never knew Him.
It will be for those that the bible said DO NOT DO and they did.
You think it's about love? I said earlier in this thread that "do love" but do not let it overshadow our overall walk.
KD, I'm not saying I know it all but Jesus Christ is the living word of God (john 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us")
You keep emphasizing on love in this topic but you're only glancing at a fraction of the overall picture. Plus the Mathew scripture does not fit with what you're saying.
I'm not going to go into that.
Can a person know Jesus Christ without knowing the gospel?
NO. Jesus Christ is the first page of the bible to the last.
One will never know Jesus if they don't get to read the word of God.
1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
Matthew 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This is where I am getting my thoughts. It is not enough to just know who Jesus is. The people in Matthew 7 Knew who Jesus was. Yet Jesus/God says I never knew you. So here we see it is not really about whether we know Jesus, but rather does Jesus know us. If our hearts are ruled by divine love then we are ruled by Jesus, and Jesus knows us, for we have invited him in to dwell. I submit that a person can invite Jesus in to rule their heart without ever knowing the story of the Gospel. One can recognize the light and the darkness, and choose to be ruled by the Light.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
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KD you keep heading back to divine love? you keep emphasising on love ruling your heart.
Do you think Mathew 7 is talking to people that didn't have love?
here it is again:
"19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. 21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers."
He called them "evil doers."
What is evil?
Anything that is against the word of God!
FROM OLD TESTAMENT AAAAAAAAAALL THE WAY TO THE NEW.
It will be idolism for those that "practiced" it.
It will be for those that 99% of the sermon was about topics had nothing to do with the word of God but more about feeling good about yourself and never knew Him.
It will be for those that the bible said DO NOT DO and they did.
You think it's about love? I said earlier in this thread that "do love" but do not let it overshadow our overall walk.
KD, I'm not saying I know it all but Jesus Christ is the living word of God (john 1:14 "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us")
You keep emphasizing on love in this topic but you're only glancing at a fraction of the overall picture. Plus the Mathew scripture does not fit with what you're saying.
I'm not going to go into that.
Can a person know Jesus Christ without knowing the gospel?
NO. Jesus Christ is the first page of the bible to the last.
One will never know Jesus if they don't get to read the word of God.
KD, you are right about many who say they know Jesus, but don't really KNOW Jesus... to KNOW, in the Hebrew is the same as intimacy, union. Adam KNEW Eve and bore Abel. They had a union, a sexual union.... this is the way we can know Jesus, intimately. When our soul (female part of us) is in union (constant praise and worship) with the Spirit of Jesus (the male) inside of us, we will KNOW Him. Then we will be so filled with Light that we will WANT to do His will and only His. The church has a long way to go to get to that point. Yes, many may THINK they KNOW Him, but how many actually take up their cross daily and do ONLY His will? Many are called... but only a few will really accept the HIGHER calling, pressing on to the PRIZE... those are Jesus' true Sons. Those are the ones who are willing to LEAVE ALL for Him, that means religious ceremonies, desires, wants, needs, etc. of your own. His will, His way, for HE IS THE WAY! Amen, KD!
c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. He has said it and He will bring it to pass. God has predestined and called those He would call. Those people who have been predestined to hear the Word WILL hear it, be not worried about that. God IS ABLE to bring it to pass. It is our job to preach the Word at all times because we are TOLD to do so. It is an obedience walk and this is how God set it up. So I don't believe that there will be those that don't hear that God has predestined to hear. If he has predestined ALL, then you can be sure that by the preaching of the Word, God WILL BRING IT TO PASS. HE SAID SO!!!! I believe it, rest assured the Word is able to save ALL!
[quote=LightInADarkPlace,Jun 7 2006, 11:46 AM]
c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. He has said it and He will bring it to pass. God has predestined and called those He would call. Those people who have been predestined to hear the Word WILL hear it, be not worried about that. God IS ABLE to bring it to pass. It is our job to preach the Word at all times because we are TOLD to do so. It is an obedience walk and this is how God set it up. So I don't believe that there will be those that don't hear that God has predestined to hear. If he has predestined ALL, then you can be sure that by the preaching of the Word, God WILL BRING IT TO PASS. HE SAID SO!!!! I believe it, rest assured the Word is able to save ALL!
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i don't think this is what KD and I are talking about.
youre saying "c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. "
KD is saying is it possible to know Jesus without hearing about the gospels.
i agree with you in what youre saying.
c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. He has said it and He will bring it to pass. God has predestined and called those He would call. Those people who have been predestined to hear the Word WILL hear it, be not worried about that. God IS ABLE to bring it to pass. It is our job to preach the Word at all times because we are TOLD to do so. It is an obedience walk and this is how God set it up. So I don't believe that there will be those that don't hear that God has predestined to hear. If he has predestined ALL, then you can be sure that by the preaching of the Word, God WILL BRING IT TO PASS. HE SAID SO!!!! I believe it, rest assured the Word is able to save ALL!
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i don't think this is what KD and I are talking about.
youre saying "c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. "
KD is saying is it possible to know Jesus without hearing about the gospels.
i agree with you in what youre saying.
Sorry... I guess what I'm saying is that if God has called you, whether you pick up a gospel or not, I believe He will make it known to that person. God can do the impossible. If you're called, you will know. I don't know if that helps or not. I didn't mean to confuse you. :0)
[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 7 2006, 01:29 PM]
[quote=LightInADarkPlace,Jun 7 2006, 11:46 AM]
c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. He has said it and He will bring it to pass. God has predestined and called those He would call. Those people who have been predestined to hear the Word WILL hear it, be not worried about that. God IS ABLE to bring it to pass. It is our job to preach the Word at all times because we are TOLD to do so. It is an obedience walk and this is how God set it up. So I don't believe that there will be those that don't hear that God has predestined to hear. If he has predestined ALL, then you can be sure that by the preaching of the Word, God WILL BRING IT TO PASS. HE SAID SO!!!! I believe it, rest assured the Word is able to save ALL!
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i don't think this is what KD and I are talking about.
youre saying "c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. "
KD is saying is it possible to know Jesus without hearing about the gospels.
i agree with you in what youre saying.
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Let me ask you this. You have a person that lived at the same time as Jesus, but far away from him. He lived a Godly life. Followed Gods way as best he could. Saw the creator around him and invited God to rule his life. He heard Gods Call and responded. Yet he never heard of Jesus. 5 days after Jesus died on the Cross, this person also dies. Was this person intimate with Jesus? Is it posible that this person "Knew" Jesus. Maybe not by name but by devine spirit.
K.D.
[quote=LightInADarkPlace,Jun 7 2006, 11:46 AM]
c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. He has said it and He will bring it to pass. God has predestined and called those He would call. Those people who have been predestined to hear the Word WILL hear it, be not worried about that. God IS ABLE to bring it to pass. It is our job to preach the Word at all times because we are TOLD to do so. It is an obedience walk and this is how God set it up. So I don't believe that there will be those that don't hear that God has predestined to hear. If he has predestined ALL, then you can be sure that by the preaching of the Word, God WILL BRING IT TO PASS. HE SAID SO!!!! I believe it, rest assured the Word is able to save ALL!
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i don't think this is what KD and I are talking about.
youre saying "c-los, I believe that Jesus Christ can be known by everyone that God calls to know Him. Somehow, someway, if you are called, you will get to hear about Jesus. "
KD is saying is it possible to know Jesus without hearing about the gospels.
i agree with you in what youre saying.
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Let me ask you this. You have a person that lived at the same time as Jesus, but far away from him. He lived a Godly life. Followed Gods way as best he could. Saw the creator around him and invited God to rule his life. He heard Gods Call and responded. Yet he never heard of Jesus. 5 days after Jesus died on the Cross, this person also dies. Was this person intimate with Jesus? Is it posible that this person "Knew" Jesus. Maybe not by name but by devine spirit.
K.D.
[quote=Kansasdad,Jun 7 2006, 03:53 PM]
Let me ask you this. You have a person that lived at the same time as Jesus, but far away from him. He lived a Godly life. Followed Gods way as best he could. Saw the creator around him and invited God to rule his life. He heard Gods Call and responded. Yet he never heard of Jesus. 5 days after Jesus died on the Cross, this person also dies. Was this person intimate with Jesus? Is it posible that this person "Knew" Jesus. Maybe not by name but by devine spirit.
K.D.
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Yes he knew Jesus if He followed the Old Testament.
Even if he never met, knew or heard about Jesus.
When Jesus is called the word of God in the flesh on earth...you don't think Jesus' character, being, entity was based on anything in the Old Testament?
That man did not know Jesus personally but the word of God was in his walk.
Jesus is the word of God.
The word of God ruled his heart and it's the same thing.
edited to say that: The man's savior is what based on Gen 3:15.
He knew Jesus was coming but lived by the word of God.
His faith in Jesus, the coming messiah, was his salvation.*
Let me ask you this. You have a person that lived at the same time as Jesus, but far away from him. He lived a Godly life. Followed Gods way as best he could. Saw the creator around him and invited God to rule his life. He heard Gods Call and responded. Yet he never heard of Jesus. 5 days after Jesus died on the Cross, this person also dies. Was this person intimate with Jesus? Is it posible that this person "Knew" Jesus. Maybe not by name but by devine spirit.
K.D.
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Yes he knew Jesus if He followed the Old Testament.
Even if he never met, knew or heard about Jesus.
When Jesus is called the word of God in the flesh on earth...you don't think Jesus' character, being, entity was based on anything in the Old Testament?
That man did not know Jesus personally but the word of God was in his walk.
Jesus is the word of God.
The word of God ruled his heart and it's the same thing.
edited to say that: The man's savior is what based on Gen 3:15.
He knew Jesus was coming but lived by the word of God.
His faith in Jesus, the coming messiah, was his salvation.*
KD I'm going to start charging you for this information.
You're stealing my thunder.
well...that's if you think it has any value.
You're stealing my thunder.
well...that's if you think it has any value.
[quote=c-los medrano,Jun 7 2006, 04:06 PM]
KD I'm going to start charging you for this information.
You're stealing my thunder.
well...that's if you think it has any value.
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LOL Thunder comes from God.
But lets take that a step farther. I agree with your last post....spot on.
But lets say this person died 100 years later, or 1000 years later. Does it matter if all the other factors are still accurate. Can a person know the Word of God with out reading it?
K.D.
KD I'm going to start charging you for this information.
You're stealing my thunder.
well...that's if you think it has any value.
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LOL Thunder comes from God.
But lets take that a step farther. I agree with your last post....spot on.
But lets say this person died 100 years later, or 1000 years later. Does it matter if all the other factors are still accurate. Can a person know the Word of God with out reading it?
K.D.
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