I thought I'd start a new thread where we look at the doctrine of the Holy Spirit as the third member of the Trinity. I'm not talking about creating a theological treatise (as eyes begin to glaze over), but maybe we can explore this subject for a while and learn a little something in the process.

First things first, before we can start talking about the Holy Spirit as a member of the Trinity, we must first establish the Divinity of the Holy Spirit. In terms of direct Biblical 'proof', the Divinity of the Holy Spirit is only hinted at, particularly in the New Testament. Here’s what fourth century bishop Gregory of Nazianzus had to say about the matter:

"The Old Testament preached the Father openly and the Son more obscurely. The New Testament revealed the Son, and hinted at the divinity of the Holy Spirit."

Truthfully, the early Church didn’t really turn its attention to the Divinity of the Holy Spirit until the Divinity of Christ had been fully meted out. With this in mind, Gregory continues:

"It was not proper to preach the Son openly, while the divinity of the Father had not yet been admitted. Nor was it proper to accept the Holy Spirit before (the Divinity of) the Son had been acknowledged..."

This may help to explain why the Divinity of Holy Spirit wasn’t really dealt with (corporately) until the First Council of Constantinople in 381 AD. Yet, for me at least, the Divinity of the Holy Spirit is a theological slam dunk. I believe it is relatively easy to prove.

First off, the Holy Spirit does things only God can do. For example, the Holy Spirit has creative ability – as show by His direct involvement in Salvation and Regeneration (John 3:5,8; Titus 3:5). At the moment of Justification, the Holy Spirit literally raises the convert from Spiritual death (Romans 6:3-5). Further, the Breath of God (synonymous with the Spirit of God) is shown to be life-giving in Genesis 2:7 and Ezekiel 37:9-10. The Holy Spirit is also responsible for the creative work of Sanctification (2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 15:16), whereby the Christian is transformed into the likeness of Christ Himself. Finally, Mary was found to be with Child through the Holy Spirit. Thus we can see that the Holy Spirit is imbued with all of the creative power of the Godhead.

The Holy Spirit is also a well-spring of Divine Revelation (John 14:26, Acts 1:8, 2 Peter 1:21, Mark 12:36, Luke 1:67). 1 Timothy 3:16 tells us that all Scripture is God-breathed (theopneustos) thereby intimating the Holy Spirit as the inspirational force behind the Scriptures. Just as Christ was the incarnate Word, the Holy Spirit inspired man to record the actual written Word of God. (This is a strong argument for the authority of Scriptures.) In Protestant theology, the Holy Spirit is often viewed as the entity which draws man to God, and the still-small voice that keeps the Christian from going astray. This helps to illuminate why Jesus said, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. Finally, the Holy Spirit dwells in the Temple of all believers, the Church of Jesus Christ, and in Scripture the only person who dwells in the Temple is God Himself.

There are direct references to the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament beginning with Genesis 1:2

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.



And...

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is present at the Baptism of Jesus found starting at Matthew 3:16

16And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:


Here are references to the Holy Spiriit , which in Hebrew is the Rauch ha Quodesh, that literally means "Spirit of Seperation".

Old Testament: Genesis 1:2; Exodus 20:1-7; Numbers 11:16-17; Deuteronomy 6:4-5, 19:15; 2 Chronicles 15:1-2; Psalms 51:10-13, 105, 143:10; Proverbs 30:5; Isaiah 63; Joel 2:28-29; Jonah 3; Zechariah 4:1-6, 7:12.

New Testament: Matthew 3:16-17, 12:22-32,43-45, 18:16, 28:18-20; Luke 11:13, 12:8-10, 24:49; John 14:16-18,26, 15:26-17, 16:1-17, 17(all), 20:22; Acts 1:4-8,16-18, 2:2-13,38, 4:8, 5:3-9,32, 6:1-6, 7:51, 8:14-17,21, 9:31, 10:44-47, 13:2,52, 15:8, 16:6, 19:1-7; Romans 5:5, 8:11,26-27, 10:9-10, 12(all), 15:13; 1 Corinthians 2:6-13, 3:16, 6:19, 12:1-11,27-30; 2 Corinthians 1:22, 11:13-15, 13:14; Galatians 3:2, 5:16-26; Ephesians 1:13-14, 4(all), 6:17; Philippians 1:19, 2:12; 1 Thessalonians 5:19; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 2:4, 6:4-6, 9:8,14, 10:15-17,26-31, 11:1; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 John 3:24, 4:1-3,7; Revelation 1:10-20.

I don't mean to focus on this one snippet, however, I just want to point out that for me this only serves to further my belief that there is not a trinity, but rather G-d in three forms. G-d the Father; G-d, the Word incarnate as Yeshua; and G-d's spirit which dwells within us, as His Holy Spirit. I'm tired. Hope that makes sense.

To me it is like three parts or aspects of a person. You have a single person but you can characterize them in three ways. One thing about the Holy Spirit is that it is God's Word. It is a word that he speaks it comes into being, anything the Lord wishes to speak, it comes into being. That is the nature of the Holy Spirit, the nature of God's Word, which is why the Holy Spirit is called the Word. When the Lord utters from his mouth he expells a breath and that breath carries much more than sound, like light, and heat and his presence and his essence. It really is a living Word.

Who can do that? What man can simply speak and then comes forth the thing spoken? No angel or man can do that, only God.

So, out of curiosity, would you classify that as a trinity, or not? I guess when I think of trinity, I think of three distinct personages. And I just cannot reconcile that for myself. I believe G-d is the Father. Yeshua is G-d in the flesh. Holy Spirit is the Father's spirit upon us.

When you speak PY is that another person? When someone hears your voice do they say "Oh that was the voice of PY" as if it were a separate person from the one who spoke?

Of course not. Your voice, if you believe it, is your voice. You sound the words with your lips, expell air through your vocal chords, while the diaphram squeezes your chest and exhale a breath shaped by your tongue. Those are words. For God, however, they are living Words. When he speaks they are more than sounds for they are the essence of creation. And it goes further than that, his Words are a sword. What does a sword do? They reveal the truth just as King Solomon did when he had a sword held to a child to reveal the true mother.

There are many falsehoods about the Gospel but the true Gospel of Christ will be revealed in the pouring of his Holy Spirit. Many thoughts and "faiths," centuries old doctrine that have grown like tare with the wheat will not be able to withstand the fire of God's words, his Living Word, when he pours it out.

I had a dream one time because I use to pray "God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit." Jesus came to me in that dream and pointed to himself that he was all three. I stopped praying that way afterwards.

Bob..okay, I thought you were also one who did not believe in a trinity of three personages, but rather as all G-d. Just wanted to clarify, instead of assuming. May He hold you gently in His hand, and may we both look forward together to His pouring out of His Holy Spirit. (Makes ya just want to sob for the glory of it, no?)

The Holy Trinity is the truth yet Christ is nothing without the father.

if a man smoker a cig or a reefa this is just as much a sign or symbol

I think of the trinity like this:

past, present, future- ALL are time, but uniquely different

ice, water, gas- all are water, but are different in form

Not coicidentally I think, there are many such trinities throughout nature.

Just my two sense.

I always loved this scripture because here we see three seperate manifestations of God at once
16And Jesus,(1) when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove(2), and lighting upon him:

17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.(3)

Genisis 3:21
And the LORD GOD caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22. And the rib, which the LORD GOD had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleve unto his wife: and they shall be ONE FLESH.
25. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.

And the Spirit and the Bride say come.
And whatever God has JOINED..
Let no man separate what God has blessed, or forever hold his peace.
don't know where this verse is in the Bible...but I know I took the voiw in Marriage.
Could also say let no man Slander
maybe this is also the meaning of slandering the Holy Spirit.

Part II. Holy Spirit a member of Trinity?
---------------
Augustine viewed the Holy Spirit as the bond of love of the Father and the Son. Quoting from my Intro to Christian Theology book:

Augustine insists upon the distinctiveness of the Spirit; nevertheless, despite this distinctive identity, the Spirit is what is common to the Father and Son. The Father is the only Father of the Son, and Son only the Son of the Father; the Spirit, however, is the Spirit of both Father and Son, binding them together in a bond of love. In his discussion of this point, Augustine concedes that Scripture does not explicitly state that the Holy Spirit is love; however, in that God is love, and the Spirit is God, it seems to follow naturally the the Holy Spirit is love.

Tertullian is another Church Father who is often credited for developing the terminology or 'vocabulary' of the Trinity. For example, he is thought to have invented the words Trinitas, Persona, and Substantia in Latin (Trinity, Person, and Substance in English). Hence the phrase three persons, one substance. Interestingly, Tertullian's idea of 'Person' is not necessarily what we have in mind when we think of 'Person'. In Latin this word persona literally means 'a mask'. Again quoting from my Christian Theology text:

At (his) time, actors wore masks to allow the audiences to understand which of the different characters in the drama they were playing (since one actor played multiple parts)... It is quite possible that Tertullian wanted his readers to understand the idea of "one Substance, three persons" to mean that the one God played three distinct yet related roles in the great drama of human redemption.

Here in the West, when pondering the Trinity, we tend to start with the Three aspects and move toward the One. Traditionally in the Eastern Trinitarian thinking, however, they start with the One and move toward the Three.

Here are some Scriptures to ponder:

1 Corinthians 12:4-6:

4Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons.

2 Corinthians 1:21-24

Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, 22who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. 23But I call God as witness to my soul, that to spare you I did not come again to Corinth. 24Not that we lord it over your faith, but are workers with you for your joy; for in your faith you are standing firm.

Galatians 4:6

Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

Ephesians 2:20-22

having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14

13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:4-6

4But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

1 Peter 1:2

according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: )May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

*Many of these passages go back to my first post, which assert the Divinity of the Holy Spirit b/c the Spirit does what only God can do: He raises us from Spiritual Death, He is responsible for the creative work of Sanctification, and He is a the source of Revelation, evidently including the inspiration of the written Word of God. Here we have begun to argue for the distinctiveness of the Holy Spirit. More to come!

Excellent job. The Spirit was sent from the Father, and the Spirit was sent from the Son, and we see all three manifested seperately together at the same time. To get a complete picture you have to look at all the verses that speak of the trinity. If you only look at a few it does not give you the whole picture.

I said this on another thread just yesterday and I will share it again here.

I have personally seen the Holy Spirit. I asked for the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the shower one afternoon and after nothing happened, I assumed that I had the Holy Spirit and went on with my business.

A few weeks later, while lying in bed one night the Holy Spirit touched my back (I was laying on my stomach) and electricity went throughout my entire body. Wondering what touched me, I turned over only to see Him hovering over my bed. The best way I can describe Him is like an angel with these penatrating EYES (I didn't dare look into them but knew they were there). He looked like He was on FIRE.

I know (our spirit men don't LEARN things, instead the spirit just KNOWS without being told... if anyone has experience with this- you know what I am talking about) that it was not Jesus above my bed. It was not Abba Father. It was the Holy Spirit.

John 17:
1. THESE words spake Jesus and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come: glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

2. As thou has given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou has given him.

3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

4. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

5. And now. O Father, glorify thou me WITH THINE OWN SELF with the glory which I had with thee BEFORE THE WORLD WAS.

6. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: THINE THEY WERE, and thou gavest them me: and they have kept thy word.

7. Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever THOU hast given me are OF THEE.

8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me: and they have received THEM, and have known surely that I CAME OUT FROM THEE, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9. I pray for THEM: I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but FOR THEM which thou hast given me, for THEY ARE THINE.

10. And all MINE are THINE, and THINE are MINE, and I am glorified in THEM.

one cannot exist without the other, combined Thine and mine.

Gensis: 26. And God said, Let us make man in OUR IMAGE....who is OUR?.ONE BODY, ONE MIND, ONE FLESH


and let THEM have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27. So God created man in HIS OWN image, in the image of God created HE HIM: MALE AND FEMALE created he THEM...

here we see HIS IMAGE...but he created HE HIM: Male and Female created he THEM.

continueing John 17:11

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou has given me, that they may be ONE, as WE ARE.

12. While I was with THEM in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition: that the scripture might be fulfilled.

l3. And now come I to thee, and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14. I have given them thy word and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15. I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy WORD IS TRUTH.

18. As thou has sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

l9. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall beleive on me through their word.

21.That they all may be ONE: as THOU, Father, Art IN ME, and I IN THEE, that they also may be ONE in US: that the world may beleive that thou hast sent me.

(21 refers back to Genesis don't you think..?

22. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them: that they may be ONE, even as we ARE ONE:

23. I IN THEM, and THOU IN ME, that they may be made PERFECT IN ONE: and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

24. Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I AM:
that they may behold my glory, which thou has given me, for thou lovedst me Before the Foundation of the World.

25. O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have know thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

26. And I have declared unto them, thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

To me this is one of the most beautiful chapters in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit, is Grace, LOVE, Mercy, Faithfulness, Enduring, Forever and ever, eternal, the Crown of Glory

Remember when the guards came to take Jesus to crucify him, and they asked Who is Jesus Christ...and he said

I AM...and they all fell backwards...Amazing and wonderful is our LORD our GOD.

AMEN!

Who is The Holy Spirit?

By definition, the one who begets (causes conception) is the father of the one begotten. Therefore The Holy Spirit is literally the Father of Jesus, for Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18-20 NKJV). Consequently if the Father and the Holy Spirit were two persons, then Jesus would have two fathers.


Let's take a look at the following.


Luke 3:22 (New King James Version)
And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

Matthew 3:16 (New King James Version)
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

John 1:32 (New King James Version)
And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.

In the above we see that the Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) descended in bodily form as a dove.


Now let's take a look at something else.


Mark 13:11 (New King James Version)
But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit.

You'll notice that it doesn't say who the Holy Spirit is, only that He will give you what to say.
Now let's take a look at Matthew 10:18-20 NKJV

Matthew 10:18-20 (New King James Version)
You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Notice that Matthew is writing about the same thing as Mark but that he goes on to say, "the Spirit of your Father".


We also see in the following that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and not from the Son!


John 15:26 (New King James Version)
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Acts 2:17 (New King James Version)
‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.


Our Catholic brothers/sisters (Trinitarians) often point to 1 John 5:7 (New King James Version)


1 John 5:7 (New King James Version)
For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

Thus they reason that the Holy Spirit is a third person. However, the scripture clearly isn't saying that the Holy Spirit is a third person but simply that God's Spirit also bears record in heaven. Let me remind you that these are the same people who misinterpreted the scriptures and basically had the whole world believing that the world was flat. Is it any wonder then that they would misinterpret this scripture as well?

Think about it! :-)


1 Corinthians 3:16 (New King James Version)
Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?


Let's also take a look at the following.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (New King James Version)
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Remember this my precious brothers:


2 Timothy 2:15 (New King James Version)
Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Romans 8:14 (New King James Version)
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


You may want to bring this to God in prayer!

May Jesus Bless You!!!


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Acts 2:18 (New King James Version)
And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.


Acts 19:6 (New King James Version)
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
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Zechariah 4:6 (New King James Version)
So he answered and said to me: " This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: ' Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,' Says the LORD of hosts.

Ah yes, the Filioque Controversy (Filioque literally means 'and from the son'). This had much to do with the East-West schism of 1054. Jack, the above argument is a variation on one that has long been used in the Eastern Church, which viewed (and views) the Father as the one and only source of the Son and the Spirit. (Of course you depart from Eastern thought by saying that the Spirit is not a member of the Trinity.) Specifically, the Son is begotten of the Father while the Spirit proceeds from the Father. Both derive from the Father, but they derive in different ways. An illustration I recently found is this: The Father speaks a Word (the Son), but as He speaks he breathes, thus sending forth the Spirit as well. For the Greek Patristic Father, the issue wasn't Jesus having two Fathers, but the Father having two sons. Naturally one of the dangers of Eastern thought is subordinationism - that the Father is superior to the Son and Spirit.

On the other hand the Western Church sought to adequately differentiate between the Son and Spirit without compromising the 'oneness' of the 'two'. In other words, for the Latin Fathers there are not two sources of divinity in the Godhead, yet the Spirit proceeds from the Father and Son.

This is why I bring all of this up. Jack, you're argument is misleading because your using the selected text to say what no Trinitarian thinker is willing to say - that Jesus has two Fathers. Furthermore, you are honing in on the distinctiveness of the Persons of the Trinity without acknowledging the Oneness. This is why it is possible for us to say that Christ was begotten of the Father by the Spirit without saying that Christ has two Fathers. The Father and the Spirit are unique, yet one.

Also, what do you make of John 20:22:

And when [Jesus] had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

And also Acts 16:7

and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;

Taking John 20:22 by itself, one could argue that Jesus simply had authority to distribute the Spirit (in a manner of speaking), but in light of Acts 16:7 there seems to be a reasonable Biblical witness to the Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son. Also, don't forget the Oneness of the Father and Son, as it is tempting for us to do. John 14:9-11:

Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves."

So I agree that the Spirit proceeds from the Father like you say, but I also say there is Bible evidence that the Spirit proceeds from the Son as well.

Question, if the Spirit is Divine and the Spirit is Distinct (both of which I have already addressed), how can the Spirit not be a member of the Divine Trinity?

Excellent Job. Very well put and easy to understand.

Thanks,
K.D.

Well I already posted several scriptures that show that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit and not a third being, so in short, there is no trinity.

Once you realize that the rest of the scriptures fall into place!
It's like having a key to the secret things of God.

To be sure, only a few will enter in!

May you be one of them.

Peace to all who know and love the truth.

Namely Jesus!

Jack, I must admit that I don't follow the reasoning in the post prior to this most recent one. Specifically, I don't see how the Scriptures you quote show that the Holy Spirit isn't a member of the Divine Trinity. You show that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, but I already agree with this. But again I ask, what of John 20:22 and Acts 16:7? Do not these verses seem to indicate that the Spirit also proceeds from the Son? Further, if the Father and Son are Two yet One, how could the Spirit proceed from one and not the other? Would not God's omnipresence also include the Godhead itself? Though Christ came in the flesh, He is everywhere present just like the Father - would you not agree?

You mention Luke 3:22, which presents an interesting delimma - the Father sends the Son the Holy Spirit. In otherwords, our omnipresent God sent Himself to Himself. Hmmm....how does that work? (How did modalists get around this, by the way? Modalists believed that God expresses Himself in different ways in different periods of time - as the Father in the OT, as the Son in the NT, and as the Spirit in the present age.) Can some body say 'mystery'?



Unfortunately, one could say this of erroneous doctrines as well. Roman Catholics use Scripture to demonstrate the validity of the Papacy (Matthew 16:18), extra-biblical traditions (2 Thessalonians 2:15), transubstantiation (John 6:43-70), Purgatory (1 Corinthians 3:12-15), efficacious Baptism (1 Peter 3:21), and so on. These doctrines and dogmas make sense to the Catholic Theologians, yet they are false.

Jack, I'm open to what you're saying because I've honestly asked myself many of the questions you are posing. But for me Scripture seems to affirm the Trinity. I'd like to know more about your position though...

Hiya dayofnoah,

Luke 3:22 and Matthew 3:16 go hand and hand - check them out.

Luke 3:22 (New King James Version)
And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

Matthew 3:16 (New King James Version)
When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.

Some see three people here because a voice came from heaven but their in error. What is being said is that God's Spirit descended like a dove and not some third person.

Jesus said, I and the Father are one. In other words, the Father is in Christ and Christ is in the Father. The Son isn't the Father nor is the Father the Son. One lives in the other thus they are one. The very same scriptures tell us that if someone is united with the Lord that he is one with Him in spirit. Christ in you - the hope of glory.

Regarding your question about John 20:22, remember that Jesus said that the Father was in Him and that the words He said where not His own, but rather, it was the Father speaking through Him.

Look:

John 15:26 (New King James Version)
“But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

Let me point something else to you and lets see if you get it - okay.

Acts 2:18 (New King James Version)
And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy.

Acts 19:6 (New King James Version)
And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.

Notice how God said that He would pour out His Spirit and what would happen, and then in Acts 19:6 we see how they received the Holy Spirit and prophecied?

Indeed, we have fellowship with The Father, His Spirit and His Son.

Just wanted to point one more thing out before I go. If you search the net for, "who is the Holy Spirit" you'll soon find that they'll tell you what He does but they'll not be able to tell you who He is. Reason being is that they don't believe the scriptures that tell us who He is.

Oh yea, I love the following:

Romans 8:14 (New King James Version)
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

There are so many other scriptures that show us who the Holy Spirit is but for some reason people would rather hold to what was pass down to them rather then believe the scriptures. Obviously it's their choice but I hope you'll make the right one.

You can also check out one of my pages at: http://www.beholdhecomes.net/holyspirit.html

Cya Later...

I am NOT back...but I had to point out something...you answered your own question. how does it NOT work? G-d IS omnipresent...G-d IS omnipotent! Who are we to put earthly limitations on Him?

My emphasis was not the how, as you suggest, but the mystery of it all. One could argue that you are putting God in a box by making everything so black and white.

Jack, do you believe in two Gods? You say the Father and the Son are not the same. I say they are the same, yet they aren't. I'm not trying to be stubborn here, but I still don't follow your reasoning. (For example I still don't see what you are trying to get at with Luke 3:22.) You have interpreted the Scriptures you quote from your own paradigm, but this is different from actual evidence. And you still have not addressed Acts 16:7. Also, what about John 4:24, God is Spirit. So, God is Spirit, He sends us His Spirit, but that Spirit is not God? Help me understand what you mean.

I'm not saying that the Holy Spirit isn't God.
What I'm saying is that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit and not a third person.

Oh yea, Jesus never said that He was the Father! What He said was, "I and the Father are one". In other words, the Father lives in the Son and the Son lives in the Father - thus they are one.

People love to complicate things but they don't know what their talking about.

By the way, nice to hear from yea PraisingYeshua!

For more on this subject see: www.beholdhecomes.net/holyspirit.html

Do your homework people!

"People love to complicate things but they don't know what their talking about."

Starting with you.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

God is triune. We are triune.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

That scripture isn't saying that the Holy Spirit is a third person.
What it's saying is to be baptized into the name of the Father's Spirit - the Holy Spirit.

Your in error because you don't interpret the scriptures properly.

Now if you realized that the Holy Spirit is in fact the Father's Spirit and not some third person you would know that.

Jesus said, "I and the Father are one". Who then is the Father, and who is the Holy Spirit if not the Father's Spirit?

You don't know because you don't understand the scriptures! But Praise God for those who do... They are lead by His Spirit and they know Him because He lives in them.

Peace to all who know and love the truth...

Jack, did you really just say Maz doesn't know Scriptures? Riiiiight.

Again, the starting point of your arguments is your conclusion - which is a poor place to start if you're trying to convince someone else of your view. Anyway, this conversation is over b/c you are just stirring up trouble my Brother.

Jack, If you have time please read over the page linked below. It is an easy explanation for you.

http://www.afcministry.com/Do_Christians_w..._three_Gods.htm

Well Jesus (God's Son) stirred up a lot of trouble and of course He was right so telling someone that they don't interpret the scriptures properly isn't out of line.

Really it doesn't matter since God will reveal Himself to whomever He wants. I could give you all the scriptures and still you wouldn't understand them unless God allowed you to.

It seems the Spirit is teaching different people, different things..........hmm

Nah... If it doesn't line up with the scriptures it didn't come from God. Unfortunatly the whole world is running after false doctrine and as for those who speak truth - well they get persecuted. The more things change the more they remain the same!

But God is faithful and His word is solid.

1 Corinthians 2:10-14 (New King James Version)
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Oh the secret things of God... Indeed the world is lost!

Even so - Amen!!!

indeed He is One Lord and Savior and is able to manifest in many ways
the form taken is one we are able to understand from our point of veiw so God reveales HimSelf to each of us at the point of each persons understanding
the Holy Spirit is The Fullness of Truth and He leads each of us into a fuller manifestation of the Likeness of Jesus

there is much that we can not bear at the begining it would do damage to us like the apostle Paul if you just think for a moment that there are other dimentions to understand
which if we were shown the Truth of them full on it would most certainly be destructive to us. so we need to grow little by little


Gary

I said I wasn't going to say anything else, Jack, but one more observation. You use a tactic that is difficult to react to - namely that God, by His Spirit, has revealed the Truth of Scripture to you and that those of us who disagree with you need similar illumination (as you possess) to see the Truth. Then, when rebuked mildly, you claim percecution. (Have you read Foxe's Book of Martyrs by the way?) Then you top it off by saying that God will reveal Himself to whomever He choses - which is of course true.

First off, even if all of your claims are true, it doesn't seem right to use your Divine 'status' against other people. In addition to that, you seem to enjoy talking down to people.

Also, what if you're wrong? Then you're deceiving yourself by running around making such bold claims. The Spirit will reveal very little to those who don't think they need His help.

In other words, the approach you take seems of another Spirit, and not of the Spirit you so adamantly claim to be led by.

In the end, it's not the voices of our enemies that we'll remember, it's the silence of our friends!

http://www.beholdhecomes.net/holyspirit.html

Hi Jack,

I share this somewhere else already...

Several nights ago I couldn't sleep so I layed there on my back...
tears were coming...I closed my eyes...and I heard look up here...
so I opened my eyes and looke up towards the ceiling...I saw a door
and quickly someone in the door...arms upraised as if gathering...
it made a cross withing the doorframe...and a cloud of purple blue...
the person began moving forward...or down as I was looking up...
then I knew it was Jesus...Jesus is coming...

Blessings,
Signet

Acts 5:3-4(ESV)
3) But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? 4) While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? Why is it that you have contrived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

Here, in verse 3, Ananias is told that he lied to the Holy Spirit and in verse 4 Peter told Ananias that he had lied to God. In these passages, the Holy Spirit is called God, directly. No hinting around.

For sure... the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit so yea, He's God alright!!!
If anyone tells you otherwise point them to that scripture.

Also...

Romans 8:11 (NKJV)
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Of course we also have the Spirit of Jesus in us... We trully are God's temple!
At least I know I do.

Hey Jack you know I care about cha but I would like to ask you a question...Please do not take offense, but I am curious to how you will answer this.

When Jesus died on the cross what happened during the 3 days He was in the tomb?

Well the scriptures tell us that He preached to those who had been in prison. Those who hadn't repented during the days of Noah.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

Why?

I will tell you why I am asking if you will give me the leeway to continue asking this of you...There is a point to this, so please trust me...

What part of Jesus went to preach to the overcomers in the City of Refuge, also known as Paradise?

I don't know about overcomers or the city of refuge but I think the scripture I gave you tells us.

1 Peter 3:18-20 (NIV)
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,

"What part of Jesus"? Obviously in Spirit! However, note that it was by the Spirit that He preached to them. He wasn't alone down there... Wherever down there was!

The question people are asking is, by what Spirit? The obvious answer is by the Father's Spirit. (Holy Spirit)

If you just take the time to read my little page you'll see that the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit and not some third person in the God head. The scriptures are actually rather simple on the subject - if your willing to eccept them.

http://www.beholdhecomes.net/holyspirit.html

removed

Wow, good call! I'd never made this connection! You know, I wrote that 'only hinted at' part with some reservation, only half-believing it to be true. In a sense one has to do a bit of digging, but I do believe the Divinity of the Spirit is there in the Word.

Well I don’t base my faith on mystical interpretations but rather on the word of God and His word clearly shows that the Holy Spirit is in fact the Father’s Spirit and not some third person in the God head. If you want to make up gods then go ahead – it’s a free country… Just don’t say I didn’t try to warn you!

Again, if anyone is interested in learning what the bible says regarding the Holy Spirit of God check out this very simple page.

http://www.beholdhecomes.net/holyspirit.html

Simple yet to the point! Just like Jesus would have told you!!!

Why is this being made such a technical issue. It is very easy and can even be explained to a child. Three in one! Think of an egg, three parts yet one whole.....shell, white, yoke. Three yet one.
Can I ask if this is important to salvation? Where is the message of salvation in all of this?
An excellent site to review about this:
http://www.afcministry.com/Trinity_Doctrine.htm

[quote=laurel,Jun 13 2006, 11:45 PM]
[quote=jhamner,May 15 2006, 04:13 PM]I said this on another thread just yesterday and I will share it again here.

I have personally seen the Holy Spirit.  I asked for the baptism of the Holy Spirit in the shower one afternoon and after nothing happened, I assumed that I had the Holy Spirit and went on with my business.

A few weeks later, while lying in bed one night the Holy Spirit touched my back (I was laying on my stomach) and electricity went throughout my entire body.  Wondering what touched me, I turned over only to see Him hovering over my bed.  The best way I can describe Him is like an angel with these penatrating EYES (I didn't dare look into them but knew they were there).  He looked like He was on FIRE.

I know (our spirit men don't LEARN things, instead the spirit just KNOWS without being told... if anyone has experience with this- you know what I am talking about) that it was not Jesus above my bed.  It was not Abba Father.  It was the Holy Spirit.
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If what your saying is true know this, it was the Father's Spirit over your bed. The Holy Spirit! Not some unknown God nor some misticle force - but the very Spirit of God almighty - who lives in us as was promised a long time ago.

Isaiah 45

Thus saith the LORD to his annointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2. I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight, I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron;

3. And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which CALL THEE by thy name, AM the God of Israel.

4. For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name; I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5. I AM the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6. That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me, I AM the LORD; and there is none else.

7. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

8. Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness, let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together: I the LORD have created it.

9. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

10. Woe unto him that saith unto his father. What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?

11. Thus saith the LORD, the HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL and His Maker. Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

12. I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

13. I have RAISED HIM UP in righteousness, and I WILL DIRECT ALL HIS WAYS: he shall build my city, and he shall let go my captives, not for price nor reward, saith the LORD of hosts.

14. Thus saith the LORD, The labour of Eygpt, and merchandise of Ethiopia and of the Sabeans, men of stature, shall come over unto thee, and they shall be thine: they shall come after thee: in chains they shall come over, and they shall fall down unto thee, they shall make supplication unto thee, saying, Surely God is in thee, and there is none else, there is no God.

15. Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16. They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them; they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17. But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

18. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it, he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited; I am the LORD, and there is none else.

19. I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain; I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.

20. Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations; they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.

21. Tell ye, and bring them near, yea let them take counsel together, who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me, a just God and a Saviour, there is none beside me.

22. LOOK UNTO ME, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I AM GOD, and there is none else.

23. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

24. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength; even to him shall men come, and all that are incensed agaisnt him shall be ashamed.

25. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Isaiah:48.

11. For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.

12. Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel my called: I am he: I am the first, I also am the last.

13. Mine hand also hath laid the foundatin of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens; when I call unto the, they stand together.

14. All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath delared these things? The LORD hath loved him; he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

15. I, even I, have spoken: yeah I have called him, I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

16. Come ye near unto me, hear ye this: I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the LORD God, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

17. Thus saith the LORD, thy Reedemer, the Holy One of Israel, I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

18. O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and they righteousness as the waves of the sea.

19. Thy seed also had been as the sand, and the offspring of thy bowels like the gravel thereof, his name should not have been cut off nor destroyed from before me.

20. Go ye forth of Babylon, flee ye from the Chaldeans, with a voice of singing declare ye, tell this, utter it even to the end of the earth: say ye, The LORD hath redeemed his servant Jacob.

21. And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts; he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them; he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out.

22. There is no peace, saith LORD , unto the wicked..


COME HOLY SPIRIT COME.


And Jesus asked, Who do you say that I AM Peter...and Peter said, Thou art the son of the LIVING GOD..
And Jesus said, Peter upon this ROCK I will build my church.

Jack did you even go read in Numbers? Nothing mystical is being said here, you know me better than that...

Thank you anyway for taking the time to answer my questions.....

Peace to ya