I used to have what I would describe as a strong faith. After studying some scriptures in relation to end times though I can no longer rely on the glib explanations I previously used for the following scriptures;

I Corinthians 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none. ; Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. ; James 5:8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

These scriptures and about 4 others indicate that the early church considered Christ was about to return in a matter of days, months or years, and certainly not millenia. Although I don't have a problem with anything in the gospels, I now seriously doubt whether the other books that make up the NT canon were actually inspired.

Can anybody help?

Crankitup,

First of all just wanted to welcome you to the forum.

Well I will attempt to answer your question. 1st of all time as we know it, in comparsion to Eternity will be extremley short.


This is how God measurse time:

2 Peter 3:8-9

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, (the promise of His coming vs 4) as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any shoulg perish, but that all should come the repentance.


I believe that this scripture establishes why the Lord has not returned as of yet because He wants All to come to Him! So if 1 day=1000 years then just as everything was created in 6 days=or 6000 years and on the Sabbath or 7th day He rested or the 7000 year we will rest.

I believe that there were things concerning prophecy that were hidden to earlier generations that just my be unfolding in these days. Several times Daniel even though he was given visions concerning the Last Days was told to seal up the Books until the time of the End. I believe we are in the 6th day or 6000 year of creation. We are standing on the Brink of the 7th Day or 7000's year. If you will Look at the above passage at verse 3 & 4.

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts., And saying where is the Promise of His coming? For since th Fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they wre from the beginning of the creation.

I believe we are living in these days. There are more scoffers today than ever.


I think that the Time issue is short in comparrsion to Eternity and I think that is what the writers of the Epistles were trying to get across. I feel that the early Churh feeling the time was close is not reason to dismiss the Epistles as the Inspired Word of God. I feel the if the Lord did not want them to be included they certainly would not have been.

Just my thoughts,
Your friend in Christ,
Valerie

Messiahiscoming

Good answer Tig...

crankit...This is the first time l've noticed this:



I'm going to use this one on my oldest son...He's been looking for a wedding ring but he doesn't even have a girlfriend yet. The harvest is ripe and the laborers few.
My son has been making his life plans...The bible say don't even talk about it with out say "If God wills" because you don't know what the morrow brings.

Anybody know which verse that is?

I'm glad you've learned from Ken. He gets up close and personal sometimes.

[quote=Crankitup,May 4 2006, 11:14 AM]
I used to have what I would describe as a strong faith. After studying some scriptures in relation to end times though I can no longer rely on the glib explanations I previously used for the following scriptures;

I Corinthians 7:29 But this I say, brethren, the time is short, so that from now on even those who have wives should be as though they had none. ; Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. ; James 5:8 You also be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.
9 Do not grumble against one another, brethren, lest you be condemned. Behold, the Judge is standing at the door!

These scriptures and about 4 others indicate that the early church considered Christ was about to return in a matter of days, months or years, and certainly not millenia. Although I don't have a problem with anything in the gospels, I now seriously doubt whether the other books that make up the NT canon were actually inspired.

Can anybody help?
*******************************************************************

Hey Crankit. Welcome here.
First of all, if you are married, do not stop what you are doing to help your wife. In other words, don't read the verse from I Cor. as some kind of excuse to set aside the responsibility that you have decided to do. If you consider the thoughts that must occur with man/wife, such as them being one flesh. all that is saying is, 'in your decisions, do not separate the decisions according to this goes to me and this to them.' I wonder does it say 'wives who have husbands, be as though you don't have them?' Just a thought.
Rev. 1:1 is a strange statement when you consider the animals. Could God somehow speak to the animals? The whales, the four-leggeds of the land, and the birds? 'What have you done?' says God to the helper of Adam. It's like, 'That mind will not help you.'
You are right about James 5:8, the people did expect the Kingdom of God to come rather quickly but Jesus Christ kept telling the people, 'What you are expecting to come is here already.'


P.S. Rev. 22:10 'And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT (do not seal, leave unsealed, leave open, let the interpretations fly) the sayings of the prophesies of this book: for the time is at hand.'

Thanks for trying to help Valerie. Sorry it's taken me so long to reply but I haven't been back here for a while.

Anyway back on topic. The one day as a thousand years angle is one of the glib arguments I used to use. It doesn't help me any more. Yes II Peter 3:8-9 tells us how GOD measures time, but Paul isn't God. Paul is using a completely different time scale, when you consider what he has to say at I Corinthians 7:27-31. There he was saying the time was so short they shouldn't bother getting married, and if they are already married, behave as if they weren't, i.e. put everything into Kingdom business.

Some good answers to the "delay" question here. These are the factors involved that I would suggest one to consider:

1. "Shortly" or "quickly" is an action verb and can be applied to the duration of the actual time of the end and not necessarily the time lapse of delay. When it starts it will be rapid fire and a very small time frame compared to centuries of time. One should understand this.

2. The Lord has obviously delayed His return and there is little explanation in Scripture for this .... It is His call and I would suggest that He has a number in mind of those humans who will enter eternal life. How long is He willing to delay for reaching His goal ? Be glad that He has delayed .... He could have pulled the plug long ago. If so, where would we be ? We wouldn't be.

3. The Lord spoke to His first followers as if He would return in their day. What would they have done if He would have said to them " I will not return for over 2,000 years. ? He speaks to us in His Word the same today; "be ready" for I will come at a time that no one can know. It is not for us to know the time. Why does He do this ? If He told you the time and it was another 2,000 years beyond your life ... what would you do ? Would you still continue to seek Him ? How would you live your short life on a daily basis ?

4. Actually if you think about, His time is short for you. Humans do not live very long life spans. So it really makes no difference which century you live in. The time that has past, before you came into existence, and the time extention out in front of your physical death has no bearing on your life's time line. Our time is short.

5. We are to live with constant focus upon our position and relationship with the Lord so that we do not miss out on His promise of eternal life. Our part of the deal is to continue in this fashion. Nothing should be in front of this priority .... there is nothing more significant. Not marriage, not wealth, not ........etc. You can be "all that you can be" and can grab all that this life can give ..... but if this is your priority ..... ? These things mean very little when compared and prioritized against eternity. He has said this to us in many ways in Scripture.

6. What happens when one dies physically ? Do we really know ? Does time pass for us as it does in the physical body ? Will we be aware of time passing as we "sleep" (this is what how paul explains it). If not, then you will wake up to the Lord's call .... either to eternal life or ..... ? Based on this understanding, how long is the Lord's delay for you ? No longer than you will live physically.

7. His time with us (in the physicall body) individually is very short. So for us He will come quickly. There will be a time when living believers will not have time to die physically. It will be at His "harpazo". The numbers in this group will be much smaller than those who will need resurrection from their sleep before given an eternal body. This will happen for all involved in the "twinkling" of an eye.

"He that believes in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live" (when the Lord returns)
"He that believes in me and lives (is living at the time of His return) will never die"


There is a step that we all have to take alone; an appointment we have with the great unknown.

Like a vapor this life is just waiting to pass; like the flower that fades, like the withering grass.

But we have this hope though our hearts may still ache, just one shout from above and we all will awake.

Tell me, where is the victory, where is the prize ? ... When the Grave Robber comes like a thief in the night.

Tell me where is the sting tell me where is the bite ? ....When the Grave Robber comes and death surely dies.

And in the reunion that happens that day, Jesus will come and will take us away.

Praise the Lord !!!

Good word Stephen.



Who Am I (Casting Crowns)


Who am I, that the Lord of all the earth
Would care to know my name
Would care to feel my hurt
Who am I, that the Bright and Morning Star
Would choose to light the way
For my eevr wandering heart

Not because of who I am
But because of what You've done
Not because of what I've done
But because of who You are

I am a flower quickly fading
Here today and gone tomorrow
A wave tossed in the ocean
A vapor in the wind
Still You hear me when I'm calling
Lord, You catch me when I'm falling
And You've told me who I am
I am Yours

Who am I, that the eyes that see my sin
Would look on me with love and watch me rise again
Who am I, that the voice that calmed the sea
Would call out through the rain
And calm the storm in me

Not because of who I am
But because of what You've done
Not because of what I've done
But because of who You are

I am a flower quickly fading
Here today and gone tomorrow
A wave tossed in the ocean
A vapor in the wind
Still You hear me when I'm calling
Lord, You catch me when I'm falling
And You've told me who I am
I am Yours, I am Yours

I am Yours
Whom shall I fear
Whom shall I fear
'Cause I am Yours
I am Yours
------------------------

Just feel like singing!

I can hear you.

These scriptures and about 4 others indicate that the early church considered Christ was about to return in a matter of days, months or years, and certainly not millenia. Although I don't have a problem with anything in the gospels, I now seriously doubt whether the other books that make up the NT canon were actually inspired.

Can anybody help?
[/quote]

+ + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + + +

This is true. And we also consider that His return could happen at any moment at this point in time as well. God's Word tells us we will not know the time of His return. Please spend your energy worshipping God and take a step back from future events. It is too easy to get into the habit of just waiting for His return while you sit there idle doing nothing for your salvation. The bible was divinely inspired and humanly expressed.

Peace

The Lord knew the day and hour of His return after he ascended into Heaven to the right Hand of God. I have narrowed it down myself by these scriptures.

Luke 12
38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

Psalms 90
4 For a thousand years in Your sight Are like yesterday when it is past, And like a watch in the night

If we are truly in the year 2006 then we are already in the third watch. That only leaves 904 years to the end of the third watch. But the seals in Daniel have been released and they are barking so we know That the end is upon us.


Charlie

The posters said:

"These scriptures and about 4 others indicate that the early church considered Christ was about to return in a matter of days, months or years, and certainly not millenia. Although I don't have a problem with anything in the gospels, I now seriously doubt whether the other books that make up the NT canon were actually inspired .
Can anybody help?"

>Does the one who said this actually think that the N.T. was not inspired by the Lord ?

comeandsee said:

"This is true. And we also consider that His return could happen at any moment at this point in time as well. God's Word tells us we will not know the time of His return. Please spend your energy worshipping God and take a step back from future events. It is too easy to get into the habit of just waiting for His return while you sit there idle doing nothing for your salvation. The bible was divinely inspired and humanly expressed"

>What is true ? Did the Lord not tell us to watch and wait ? What are you doing for your salvation ? Does the human expression make it any less inspired ? And which parts are and are not inspired, if any, in your opinion ?

>Very strange statements indeed.

Quote Crankitup: "Paul is using a completely different time scale, when you consider what he has to say at I Corinthians 7:27-31. There he was saying the time was so short they shouldn't bother getting married, and if they are already married, behave as if they weren't, i.e. put everything into Kingdom business."

Reply: Ac 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. Paul did not expect Christ to return at any moment. He knew that the temple would be destroyed and the Jews scattered, and that there would not be a nation of Israel to enter Daniel's seventieth week.
All these far out interpretations come from man made interpretations of scriptures. They must change many passages to fit their ideas and must disreguard contradictions. 2 Thess: 2 is correct just the way it is written.
Peter was told that he would be an old man before the Lord's return. They were also told in Matthew 28 to go into all the world and teach the gospel and that would take months or years to complete.

The time is short now because the seals are off of the book of Daniel.




Charlie

The Seals are removed.


Daniel 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.




Charlie

Charle said:

"Daniel 12
4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end"

>Sealing in this context of Daniel means that the things that will take place are for the time of the end and not in Daniel's time. It does not mean to hid the meaning of his visions. Much of what Daniel was shown was explained to him within the context of the visions. The general statement of the messenger is "I have come to make known to you what will take place at the time of the end."

>Revelation continues and adds more details to Daniel's visions beginning in chapter 4 and all is revealed of what the Lord wants us to know. The writings have been around for a long time and "Revelation" means just what it says. The Lord is opening up His plan for us to see in advance.

>That the time is short, or that the Lord will come quickly, is still just as true as it was back in the first century. The Lord has delayed His return so that the fullness of the incoming of the Gentiles who become believers is complete ... and then He will suddenly, and with rapid fire actions, wrap up His hour of trial and establish His millennial Kingdom on the earth. All will take place within a short 7 year time frame.

>The scope of the content of visionary prophecy is constrained to certain periods of linear time. They do not contain linear history after the 69th week, but do contain the alloted time for the end of this present age. The Lord always speaks in Scripture with regard to this scope ... always. If you know this truth then you will see that the 69th and 70th weeks are adjacent in visionary prophecy, but parted with respect to linear historical time lapse. This is a very simple truth and without it, one will be lead in many different directions when trying to understand Bible prophecy.

>We must rightly divide these things in order for correct interpretation. If you will re-visit the visions with this precept as a guideline, you can find the separation or break in very one of them. If you do this, the picture will become very clear and meaningful to you. If you do not, you will never discover the correct view.

And l would add that these visions wouldn't be fully understood until the time of the end as church history reveals.

Even some of the greats like Ironside revised a book in 1950 that was written in 1902 after Israel became a nation again.

When you begin to understand something the sealing or maybe better said...scales come off your eyes.
The truth was there all along... you just didn't see it nor was it made possible until the end. Each seal...each scale removed is revelation knowledge...Or one part of revelation knowledge...

"When you begin to understand something the sealing or maybe better said...scales come off your eyes.
The truth was there all along... you just didn't see it nor was it made possible until the end. Each seal...each scale removed is revelation knowledge...Or one part of revelation knowledge..."

>This is true and it is exactly the way it happens.

Stephen
The book is still sealed for you. If you would have read it and understood you would have known that there is no 7 years. There is no 7 years anywhere in scripture. A time, times, and a half time. 1290 days and 1335 days. Does that sound like 7 years to you?





Charlie

thank you and AMEN< AMEN


we have a starting point to discuss prophecy Charles....

God Bless









biblical seals are not personal scales from your personal eyes Stephen... you are equation a pesonal experience with the unsealing of soemthing biblical....

By your definition, most of the bible is a sealed book to many cuz being blind is the definition you use for sealed, rather than it's meaning hid by God to all til the time of unsealinig....

On the other hand, the book of REvelation, for instance, is the revealing of Christ in the way he is already, NOW< TODAY, we see him for who he is.. the alpha and Emega, the mighty king, we see him as the WORD.... We see what was ging on behind the veil of his flesh as the lamb of God.....

Since the book is an unsealed book, many do not understand it. that doesn't mean it is a sealed book, just that many do not understand it because of the veil still in front of their eyes.....


DAniel on the other hand, had many sealed parts. Why the seal? Because it had things still morphing... Sealed becaseu it had contigencies to first come to pass... God awaited the sins of Israel to come to a head first before she was stoned.... before it was the time of the end for her....

I somewhat agree with what you've said about Matt 28, and I think that helps me a lot. I don't know about what you've said about Peter though. Can you give me the scripture for that? Even if there is one that says what you've said, I think it just complicates things.

"Peter was told he would be an old man before the Lord's return ..."

The person who said that likely was referring to John 21:18-19.

There are scholars (even RCC scholars) that believe Jesus was indicating a future time when "Peter", who represents the Church of Peter and the papacy (every pope is considered to be the image and successor of "Peter") would, in its "old age" apostatize, and when that great city on seven hills , Mystery Babylon (ie Vatican City) is destroyed, as described in Revelation 18 ... God will be glorified.

Hope this helps Crankitup.

To God a thousand years is as a day and a day as a thousand years.
God wanted ALL GENERATIONS to be ready for his coming. Today is the day of salvation.

'Good thing Jesus did not come at the time the Bible was written; people took it serious and were saved. That's the point!

That's why the Rapture is not defined in time otherwise we would indulge, knowing when it comes, like knowing WHEN THE THIEF COMES, so we can be ready and have the police there!

The key words in your quote are; "To GOD ...."

The NT writers were addressing PEOPLE in the scriptures I quoted. A human timescale was meant.

The Lord was addressing you threw the new testament writers using His own time scale.

Me?

Was He addressing people that lived in the 1500's too? What about the 1600's? Think about the implications of what you are saying.

Think about what you are saying Crankitup. If anyone would have come to the knowledge of the truth out of Gods time let's say 1500's or 1600's God would have martyred them or pulled them out or translated them and you wouldn't know it. But now for this time of the end it is time to wake up and realize that the Lord is talking to you to come out from among them and go forth in His Spirit and Power.

Well, finally, I came across an article that essentially answers my questions.

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/eschatology/nearness.html

Especially this part;

The Reality of Nearness

Against the common error of the liberals, premillennialists, and Christian Reconstructionists, the nearness of Christ's second coming in New Testament teaching is not proximity according to the standard of human clock-time and calendar-time. The Spirit of inspiration did not mean that Jesus' return was a few years off, or possibly at any moment. Fact is, that in close connection with the assertion that Jesus' coming is near Scripture indicates that this coming is quite distant as regards clock- and calendar-time. According to natural human notions of time, the coming is a long ways off. Indeed, it seems to the waiting church that He delays coming.

In the very same discourse in which He says that His coming is near, Jesus cautions that He tarries: "While the bridegroom tarried" (Matt. 25:5). The reason why the scoffers of II Peter 3 pose a threat to the hope of the church is that many years pass without the fulfillment of the promise of Christ's coming. It is exactly the passing of decades, centuries, and now millennia that occasions the temptation to suppose that the Lord is slack concerning His promise.

II Thessalonians 2:1ff. is decisive against both forms of millennialism, as it is against the old liberalism. The apostle denies that the "day of Christ," which is the day of His coming, is "at hand" (v. 2). The word translated "at hand" is not the same word that is translated "at hand" in Philippians 4:5. That word is the word "near," as the King James Version also translates it in Matthew 24:32. The word in II Thessalonians 2:2 means "imminent," or "soon," in the exact sense of "any moment," or "any day now," or "just around the corner," or "within a few years."

Christ's coming could not occur at any moment or within a few years because it must be preceded by two events, which are, therefore, signs to the church of the coming of Christ. One is the great falling away, or apostasy, of churches and professing Christians. The other is the revelation of the man of sin, who is antichrist. Both of these events require many years of history, at least 2000 years as we now know.

Against the liberals, the passage proves that Christ and the apostles never expected the coming of Christ to be soon. Near? Yes. Soon? No. There is a difference.

Against the premillennialists, the passage explicitly denies that the coming of Christ, which is the gathering of the church unto Him (v.1), is "at any moment." "Let no man deceive you by any means as that the day of Christ is at any moment" (vv. 2, 3). In addition, there are signs of His coming, signs to the church, signs that the believers can and must observe. They are apostasy in the churches and the revelation of the man of sin among the nations.

Against the postmillennial Christian Reconstructionists, the passage teaches that the nearness of Christ's coming does not mean a few years. Biblical nearness is not "soon by human standards." The same apostle who in Philippians 4:5 states that the Lord is near here teaches that a long period of time stretches out between the Thessalonian church at the end of the first century and the day of Christ. Also, the church in every age is here instructed that the one, future, bodily coming of Christ is preceded, not by the conversion of the world but by the apostasy of the churches, not by the earthly dominion of the men of the law but by the reign of the man of lawlessness. When Christ returns, in His one, future, bodily coming-the "day of Christ" (v. 2)-the antichrist, "that wicked (one)," will be on the scene (v. 8).

The nearness of Christ's coming is not proximity in time according to man's natural notions of "soon"-for a child, five minutes; for adults, next week; for premillennialists, any moment; and for Christian Reconstructionists, 40 years.

The nearness of Christ's coming is that the coming of Christ is the next great event on the schedule of God, after the ascension and Pentecost, for the redemption of the world.

The nearness of Christ's coming is that the coming of Christ closes this present age, with no age intervening, e.g., a "golden age" of the earthly dominion of the saints, whether Jewish nation or Gentile church.

The nearness of Christ's coming is that the coming of Christ is rushing toward us. The exalted Christ at God's right hand governs history. He rules every creature and every event so as to bring about His coming as the goal of all that is. He rules all so that He comes as quickly as possible. In all that exists and happens, Christ is coming quickly (Rev. 22:20).