Christian-Forum.net > False Doctrines!

room4all

Jan 20 2007, 10:37 PM

QUOTE(Shaun333 @ May 1 2006, 02:01 PM) [snapback]58638[/snapback]

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

Shaun,

Just a few questions about a few things which I'll try to put in color next to the item I'm asking about (and not trying to be ignorant--it really does get confusing). And yes, I'm editing most out that I'm not specifically asking about.

Is it ever difficult to tell what is meant figuratively and what is meant literally, and what is meant both ways?

In my own view, obviously there will be some that are difficult that you may have to study more than other, but much is not.

Here are some points to go by with regard to literal bible interpretation:

PRINCIPLES OF THE LITERAL METHOD OF INTERPRETING SCRIPTURE.

I. FOLLOW THE CUSTOMARY USAGES OF THE LANGUAGE.
II. COMMIT NO HISTORICAL OR CULTURAL BLUNDERS.
III. MAKE CHRIST CENTRAL IN ALL INTERPRETATIONS.
IV. BE CONSCIOUS OF CONTEXT
V. INTERPRET BY THE ANALOGY OF THE FAITH.
VI. RECOGNIZE THE PROGRESS OF REVELATION.
VII. GRANT ONE INTERPRETATION TO EACH PASSAGE.
When the words of Scripture were penned they had only one meaning. We should search for that one meaning. To accept multiple interpretations for one scripture passage causes confusion. Scripture itself does not allow for multiple interpretations of a verse. Note that we are talking about interpretation and not about application. A passage can have several applications, however in its historical and grammatical setting it can have only one interpretation.
VIII. CHOOSE THE SIMPLEST ALTERNATIVE
IX. NEVER INVENT EXPLANATIONS TO SILENT AREAS OF SCRIPTURE
Simply stated it means do not make up explanations to areas of Scripture that are silent and where God has not given us all the information about some topic of Scripture.
X. NEVER THEORIZE TO ACCOMMODATE MAN'S VIEWS OR MODERN SCIENCE.
XI. NEVER BASE A DOCTRINE ON ONE PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE.
[b]No doctrine should be built on only one passage or verse of Scripture. To arrive at the correct understanding of a teaching (doctrine) in Scripture you must study all related texts and then put them together. Until you do this it is difficult to know that you have all the truth revealed on a particular subject.

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

"(Calvinist interpretation that some are predestined to heaven no matter what and some are predestined to hell no matter what?)"

I don't understand what you're asking here.

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

"Denies baptism by sprinkling"

(Is this a problem? John the Baptist baptized Jesus by immersion, so I would think this is the way anybody following Jesus would want to be baptized)

"Denies infant baptism."

(I don't think infants need baptism, either, and I don't consider myself to be under false teachings on the matter.)

"Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco."

(Why would this be in the category of false doctrine?)

And no, I'm not SDA! Just asking questions!

shy, I'm not here to argue FOR these, since I am not of these. I don't know everything in these people's minds. This is a list of things that they believe. You can always pick out something that MAY be true, mixed with the false aspects of the rest. The point is to hold it up to the Bible. Hold up EVERYTHING. The "false doctrine" title heading refers to the denial of certain things such as say Jesus and His resurrection or the Trinity etc. These other things are a list of the things that they may believe. You can lump it in with the "false doctrine" as well, but that stems from the denial of the sacred things regarding the Bible.
Personally, since there was wine at the last supper etc the denial of this may be false in saying that Jesus may have sinned with wine at His table since they deny alcohol. That would be the point, I would imagine.

As far as the baptism thing goes, the point is to match it up to scripture. Once again, I say some things here may ring true to you, but the Doctrine ITSELF is not of Jesus. I'm giving you a list of ALL the things they believe or subscribe to. Some truth sprinkled amongst lies is the point here.
The Doctrines themselves are false with lists, regarding their entire belief system.

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

"Kabbalah

teaches...

The human soul preexisted before coming to earth."

(I personally wouldn't have a problem with this because of things said to Job)

Do you have a problem with reincarnation? How about there being two Messiahs, one from the lineage of Joseph and the other from David.

This is also what kabbalah teaches. I'm telling you all that they teach. They may draw you in with one truth, but overall it's lies. The Doctrine's are false, hence false doctrine. One truth with many lies equals FALSE DOCTRINE.

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

"Oneness Pentecostal

Denies the doctrine of the Trinity.
Jesus is God the Father.
Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
Denies pre-existence of the Word as the Son. Teaches that the He existed as the Father."

(All of this combined together seems to contradict itself and actually indicate that there is no problem. If the Trinity means they're all the same God, then Jesus is God the Father, and Jesus is the Holy Spirit, and the Word being the Father is the same thing as the Word being the Son because they're the same God. Or is it confusing? Or am I the only one confused?)

This teaches that Jesus only existed as the Father from the beginning. That He was not separate being such as the Trinity is, which is The Father , The SON and the Holy Spirit. They don't consider that there ever was a separate "WORD" from the "SON". They deny the total existance of the Trinity as three persons. False Doctrine. In so doing, they are denying Jesus Himself as the Son.

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

"Restitution of all things, though the devil and the angels will not be restored."

(??????)

"Women may be pastors."

(I don't think they're the only group who allow this.)

What I gather from the oneness pentecostal belief regarding the restitution thing, and I'm not completely sure on this, is that the judgment of the devil will not ultimately be as far as his final lake of fire judgment. No paying, so to speak, for the evil he has caused, for he will not be restored or be punished eternally, but destroyed completely.

No, they aren't the only group that allow women pastors, I believe you are correct.

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

"Christian Science"

None of their stuff makes ANY sense to me, especially coming out of the mouth of Tom Cruise and other "celebrities"

Actually, tom cruise sports scientology, which is about as wacked out as you can get.

QUOTE(shy1 @ May 1 2006, 02:03 PM)

"New Age Movement"

This is scary stuff when it is set up to counterfeit Christianity. What is really scary to me is what I've read on the internet about their "Second Coming Event" which may all be a hoax, but they may really be planning a deception in connection with the appearance of the a/c. What they're up to is what I'd like to know. I don't care about their really strange beliefs because I'm not shopping for that anyway, but the ways in which they TRY to counterfeit true Christianity would be helpful to know.

Here's a link on that regarding New Age deception that may help.

New Age Deception

Wow ...I really appreciate the sensitivity and honesty in your response.

jamie bocc

Jan 28 2007, 01:14 PM

QUOTE(RosielovesJesus @ May 1 2006, 01:21 PM) [snapback]58624[/snapback]

Shy 1 that is exactly how the cults work. You agree with some, but what about the rest. That is how easily you can be pulled into one. Sly and sneaky Shy 1.

The devil is sly and sneaky too right.
I think we can have wine, in moderation of course.

Jesus made water into wine, but some churches say you are going
to hell if you consume any alcohol. Oh wait is there a hell or not

Maybe they are not going anywhere. They won't exisit. Oh then why
are they so worried about drinking a bit of wine.

Yes that was my synicism showing up. Now for ism's that can't be good either

I don't know why some churchs say wine is bad, When YESHUA drank wine at Passover. The only time grape juice was available was during the fall harvest. They had no way to keep grape juice over the winter, spring it would have started to ferment after a couple of days. They made it into wine and vingar. I think it all comes back to not over do the drinking.

noname

Feb 25 2007, 02:19 AM

There is only one True doctrine today which is the same doctrine according to Apostle Paul ----The Holy Bible (which includes the baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by prayer in tongues and "all" the spiritual gifts). Not the incomplete doctrines (and there are sooo... many of these which have taken away from God's Word), nor the "other" ones which Apostle Paul cursed in Galations, but only the One which is complete and Holy and confirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself through His Church. This Church, the Bride, is being adorned and making Herself ready for the Lord Jesus Christ's return. Amen. Hallelujah!!! All praise, thanksgiving, and glory to God!

noname

Feb 25 2007, 02:21 AM

There is only one True doctrine today which is the same doctrine according to Apostle Paul ----The Holy Bible (which includes the baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by prayer in tongues and "all" the spiritual gifts). Not the incomplete doctrines (and there are sooo... many of these which have taken away from God's Word), nor the "other" ones which Apostle Paul cursed in Galations, but only the One which is complete and Holy and confirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself through His Church. This Church, the Bride, is being adorned and making Herself ready for the Lord Jesus Christ's return. Amen. Hallelujah!!! All praise, thanksgiving, and glory to God!

There is only one True doctrine today which is the same doctrine according to Apostle Paul ----The Holy Bible (which includes the baptism of the Holy Spirit evidenced by prayer in tongues and "all" the spiritual gifts). Not the incomplete doctrines (and there are sooo... many of these which have taken away from God's Word), nor the "other" ones which Apostle Paul cursed in Galations, but only the One which is complete and Holy and confirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself through His Church. This Church, the Bride, is being adorned and making Herself ready for the Lord Jesus Christ's return. Amen. Hallelujah!!! All praise, thanksgiving, and glory to God!

noname

Mar 6 2007, 11:11 PM

Seems that the Triune God really wants to gain glory as He had me post those last Words "Three" times. Let's praise Him forever and ever! ...Amen.

Divinespark

Apr 6 2007, 11:40 AM

Wine isn't bad when used in everyday life, of course it's damaging when using too much.
It was only prohibited to have drunk wine in the old testament, for the upper priest when being in the holiest of holiest of the tabernacle. Not for the other people in other circumstances, for example during religious festivities. The pattern in this, is that when closest to the center where God's name rules, drinking wine may be too "difforming" to meet the purity or oneness required at that particular place.

Greets, Divinespark

George

Apr 8 2007, 02:26 AM

This thread was a long read only because some people are hard to understand.
Yep there are a lot of false doctrines there.
The very simple truth of the whole matter is this.
Christ loved you enough to die for you.
It is required only that you love Him enough to do what He said.

Do you know what He said to do?

13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.
14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Teressa

Apr 14 2007, 01:30 AM

Shaun,

What can you think to do to show God's love to these people having false doctrine?

Teresa.

noname

May 21 2007, 12:13 AM

God says there is only one true doctine and all the others are false even though they appear to be loving, kind, pray often, sacrifice their lives daily, where shirts and ties to services, read the Bible, etc., etc.,.But, since they disobey God of Jesus Christ by rejecting His commands through the Latter-day Elijah, they are condemned to perish. The Lord Jesus Christ says, "the time has come to separate the tares from the wheat, and to bring the wheat into My barn"....Hallelujah!!

sun-day666mark

Sep 3 2007, 02:24 AM

At the start of this topic it says something about someone not believing in predestination. Whats so wrong with believing that God has given human beings the freedom too choose to follow him or not. There are examples in the bible of people even prophets who have turned away from God when they once walked strongly with him balaam comes to mind who went to curse israel for what he could get out of it even though he knew it wasnt Gods will.

BrotherJon

Oct 7 2007, 08:13 AM

When is the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

When did Jesus Himself say he would raise those who have died In Him?

If you can answer this question you will discover exactly when the rapture takes place, because the bible says the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...THEN we who are alive and REMAIN will be CAUGHT UP with them to meet Him in the air........

Read John 6....Jesus states 4 times that he will raise them up at the LAST DAY. Not 7 years before the last day.......I know...it feels good to have your ears tickled....but truth is in the scripture...not man's tradition.

shy1

Oct 7 2007, 10:08 AM

QUOTE(BrotherJon @ Oct 7 2007, 08:13 AM) [snapback]123580[/snapback]

When is the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

When did Jesus Himself say he would raise those who have died In Him?

If you can answer this question you will discover exactly when the rapture takes place, because the bible says the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...THEN we who are alive and REMAIN will be CAUGHT UP with them to meet Him in the air........

Read John 6....Jesus states 4 times that he will raise them up at the LAST DAY. Not 7 years before the last day.......I know...it feels good to have your ears tickled....but truth is in the scripture...not man's tradition.

BrotherJon,
This makes good sense to me! The dead first--not second after a raptured group--and then we who are alive and remain--have remained through the entire thing as we were meant to--are caught up with them. I'm sure there will be ways to explain that away, but it makes too much sense.

taltimbr

Oct 7 2007, 11:54 AM

QUOTE(BrotherJon @ Oct 7 2007, 09:13 AM) [snapback]123580[/snapback]

When is the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

When did Jesus Himself say he would raise those who have died In Him?

If you can answer this question you will discover exactly when the rapture takes place, because the bible says the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...THEN we who are alive and REMAIN will be CAUGHT UP with them to meet Him in the air........

Read John 6....Jesus states 4 times that he will raise them up at the LAST DAY. Not 7 years before the last day.......I know...it feels good to have your ears tickled....but truth is in the scripture...not man's tradition.

Remember ONE very important FACT. The dead old testament Saints lived before Jesus
so therefore many did not know of his coming. Like Abraham God imputed them righteousness
because they believed the word of God and obeyed the word of God. They did not die in Christ!
There has to be understanding of scripture. Only those that lived and died believing in Jesus
will be raised at the Lord's appearing... the old testament Saints shall be raised on the last day.
The appearing of Jesus before tribulation will remove the dead in Christ and those who are alive
and believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose the 3rd day, so that they might have life
eternal. The OLD TESTEMANT SAINTS lived before Jesus was born of a virgin. They receive
their bodily resurrection on the last day! Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you when reading scripture.

God Bless,
Thunder

gr82bsaved

Oct 7 2007, 12:49 PM

QUOTE(taltimbr @ Oct 7 2007, 11:54 AM) [snapback]123590[/snapback]

QUOTE(BrotherJon @ Oct 7 2007, 09:13 AM) [snapback]123580[/snapback]

When is the resurrection of the dead in Christ?

When did Jesus Himself say he would raise those who have died In Him?

If you can answer this question you will discover exactly when the rapture takes place, because the bible says the dead in Christ will rise FIRST...THEN we who are alive and REMAIN will be CAUGHT UP with them to meet Him in the air........

Read John 6....Jesus states 4 times that he will raise them up at the LAST DAY. Not 7 years before the last day.......I know...it feels good to have your ears tickled....but truth is in the scripture...not man's tradition.

Remember ONE very important FACT. The dead old testament Saints lived before Jesus
so therefore many did not know of his coming. Like Abraham God imputed them righteousness
because they believed the word of God and obeyed the word of God. They did not die in Christ!
There has to be understanding of scripture. Only those that lived and died believing in Jesus
will be raised at the Lord's appearing... the old testament Saints shall be raised on the last day.
The appearing of Jesus before tribulation will remove the dead in Christ and those who are alive
and believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose the 3rd day, so that they might have life
eternal. The OLD TESTEMANT SAINTS lived before Jesus was born of a virgin. They receive
their bodily resurrection on the last day! Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you when reading scripture.

God Bless,
Thunder

Here is something to ponder, since so many seem to forget about this:

<div style="background-color:#fff;border:dashed #000 1px;">
Mt 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.
Mt 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,
Mt 27:52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
Mt 27:53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Mt 27:54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, "Truly this was the Son of God!"
</div>

When JESUS died, the graves of some of the saints (old testament saints) were opened during the earthquake that happened at the moment of HIS death. Then, after JESUS arose - was RESURRECTED - those same saints arose and were seen in Jerusalem by others! There was no prophecy of that event by OT prophets at the moment of JESUS' death and resurrection - GOD made it happen because HE wanted it happen.

For those who are unfamiliar with that event, there happens to be extra-biblical evidence for it occurring as well. We have two extra-Biblical non-Christian sources and four extra-Biblical Christian sources that mention these events:

<div style="background-color:#fff;border:dashed #000 1px;">
- Phlegon was a Greek writer from Caria, who wrote soon after 137 A.D. that in the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad [33 A.D.]. that there was "the greatest eclipse of the sun" and that "it became night in the sixth hour of the day [12:00 noon] so that no star even appeared in the heavens. There was a great earthquake in Bithynia, and many things were overturned in Nicea." (quoted from The Case for Christ p.111.) Origen Against Celsus book 2 ch.14 p.437, book 2 ch.33 p.445; book 2 ch.59 p.455.

- Thales (or Thallus) was a Palestinian historian referenced by Julius Africanus (writing 232-245 A.D.) Julius says, "This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (quoted from The Ante-Nicene Fathers volume 6 p.136.) The context is Julius discussing how the time from Artaxerxes’ decree to Christ’s crucifixion, fulfilled Daniel 9. (We do not have any evidence that Thales mentioned an earthquake though.)

- Irenaeus (182-188 A.D.), in "Fragments from the Lost Writings" chapter 28 (in the Ante-Nicene Fathers), mentions that "when Jesus descended, many souls ascended and were seen in their bodies." He also writes, in Against Heresies Book 4 ch.34 p.512 says, "And the points connected with the passion of the Lord, which were foretold, were realized in no other case. For neither did it happen at the death of any man among the ancients that the sun set at mid-day, nor was the veil of the temple rent, nor did the earth quake, nor were the rocks rent, not did the dead rise up, nor was any one of these men [of old] raised up on the third day, nor received into heaven… Therefore the prophets spake not of any one else but of the Lord, in whom all these aforesaid tokens concurred."

- Ignatius (before 116 A.D.), a disciple of the apostle John, in his Letter to the Magnesians, chapter 9, mentions those whom Jesus raised: "how, then, can we possibly live apart from Him of whom, by the working of the Spirit, even the Prophets were disciples and to whom they looked forward as their Teacher? And so He, for whom they rightly waited, came and raised them from the dead."

- Clement of Alexandria (wrote 193-217 A.D.) in the Stromata book 6 chapter 6 says "But those who had fallen asleep, descended dead, but ascended alive.’ The Gospel says, ‘that many bodies of those that slept arouse - plainly as having been translated to a better state. There took place, then, a universal movement and translation through the economy of the Savior."

- Origen (225-254 A.D.) mentions the darkness over the land, and the tombs split open in Against Celsus book 2 chapter 33 p.445.

- Dionysius of Alexandria (246-265 A.D.) mentions the earthquake in Matthew. Letter to the Bishop Basilides canon 1 p.94.
</div>

My point is that pre-wrath, pre-trib, mid-trib, post trib rapture beliefs have their strengths and weaknesses, but GOD can make it happen AT ANYTIME HE CHOSES. The one thing all of these views have in common is the belief in JESUS rapturing the believers - the dead in CHRIST first (as seen after JESUS arose) and those still alive - to meet HIM in the clouds. I love the idea of a pre-trib rapture, but I lean into the pre-wrath timing model of the rapture. Nonetheless, the fact is that CHRIST will rapture HIS bride, the Church. That is a clear and unrefutable fact in scripture. It is our job to watch and be alert for the future, which clearly all of the members of this board are doing.

So please do not take an exalted attitude towards your brothers and sisters in CHRIST who subscribe to different rapture timing. JUST BE PREPARED FOR THE RAPTURE!

gr82bsaved

Gypsylass

Oct 10 2007, 11:18 AM

BrotherJon

Oct 10 2007, 02:00 PM

[/quote]

Remember ONE very important FACT. The dead old testament Saints lived before Jesus
so therefore many did not know of his coming. Like Abraham God imputed them righteousness
because they believed the word of God and obeyed the word of God. They did not die in Christ!
There has to be understanding of scripture. Only those that lived and died believing in Jesus
will be raised at the Lord's appearing... the old testament Saints shall be raised on the last day.
The appearing of Jesus before tribulation will remove the dead in Christ and those who are alive
and believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose the 3rd day, so that they might have life
eternal. The OLD TESTEMANT SAINTS lived before Jesus was born of a virgin. They receive
their bodily resurrection on the last day! Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you when reading scripture.

God Bless,
Thunder

[/quote]

However,

Jesus PREACHED to those in prison, bringing the gospel to the old testament saints at that point....they believed and were found to be IN CHRIST due to this. The "dead in Christ" are ALL believers Old and New testament who trust God and His Messiah. There is only ONE olive tree called, "All Israel" and we, by faith, have been grafted in. Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches.....

Jesus will not appear before the tribulation except in His first fruits....who then take the woman into the wilderness for 42 months.... there is NO pre-trib rapture. at the LAST TRUMP-1-2-3-4-5-6-7! Seventh trump--Jericho--Seventh trump--Fiery furnace -7 times hotter-- Daniel's 70th WEEK- 7 days- 7 years...at the LAST DAY is when Christ comes bodily to resurrect His people and catch us up to be with him....and YES..Those that REMAIN....if the rapture happened at the beginning of the trib- the question begs....remain through what?

I do listen to the Holy Spirit when I read scripture.......

Bro. Jon

Truthwriter

Oct 14 2007, 12:16 AM

There were a lot of things I did not agree with scriptually from all the topics - and also some from the replies I read. Honestly, I may be repeating something. Please excuse - it's late and first post on this site.

One thing I really wanted to touch on was the comment I read about drinking wine being ok and how Jesus made wine and drank it.

Actually, I believe he made grape juice - and from my understanding, we are to drink it before it ferments (hence, before it becomes the alcoholic drink, wine). I do not think Jesus made "wine" I think he made grape juice and that was all he drank, not wine. Also, why he did not drink from offering while on the cross.

On a different note. As a new person, I am not able to start a new topic. I wanted to touch on something I recently bumped into online about the bible code, done by L0rd Kyr0N. I wanted to try and contact this person and can not find any way to do so. So, I wanted to know - (a) does anyone know how I can contact this person, (

if this person reads this, please contact me because I have a question about the code you posted re: Verichip and the mark on Exodus 2006 website. I ask because I have come across some very specific bible codes now appearing on the website and specific names being mentioned and they actually match information I wrote about in a book which I had released 8/04 and the information was actually on paper 6/04. Just needed to know if some of those codes were located and posted before or after I actually wrote about different prophectic topics in the book.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Blessings.

Truthwriter

Oct 14 2007, 12:22 AM

[quote name='BrotherJon' date='Oct 10 2007, 02:00 PM' post='123868']
[/quote]

Remember ONE very important FACT. The dead old testament Saints lived before Jesus
so therefore many did not know of his coming. Like Abraham God imputed them righteousness
because they believed the word of God and obeyed the word of God. They did not die in Christ!
There has to be understanding of scripture. Only those that lived and died believing in Jesus
will be raised at the Lord's appearing... the old testament Saints shall be raised on the last day.
The appearing of Jesus before tribulation will remove the dead in Christ and those who are alive
and believe that Jesus died for their sins and rose the 3rd day, so that they might have life
eternal. The OLD TESTEMANT SAINTS lived before Jesus was born of a virgin. They receive
their bodily resurrection on the last day! Ask the Holy Spirit to guide you when reading scripture.

God Bless,
Thunder

[/quote]

However,

Jesus PREACHED to those in prison, bringing the gospel to the old testament saints at that point....they believed and were found to be IN CHRIST due to this. The "dead in Christ" are ALL believers Old and New testament who trust God and His Messiah. There is only ONE olive tree called, "All Israel" and we, by faith, have been grafted in. Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches.....

Jesus will not appear before the tribulation except in His first fruits....who then take the woman into the wilderness for 42 months.... there is NO pre-trib rapture. at the LAST TRUMP-1-2-3-4-5-6-7! Seventh trump--Jericho--Seventh trump--Fiery furnace -7 times hotter-- Daniel's 70th WEEK- 7 days- 7 years...at the LAST DAY is when Christ comes bodily to resurrect His people and catch us up to be with him....and YES..Those that REMAIN....if the rapture happened at the beginning of the trib- the question begs....remain through what?

I do listen to the Holy Spirit when I read scripture.......

Bro. Jon
[/quote]

I believe Acts indicates those you were speaking of were collected by Christ when he went do Hades to bring those who were saved back with him to heaven. I believe it is stated a few thousand were walking about Jerusalem during those days before Christ returned to heaven. Therefore, those who were taken out of Hades by Christ, even though they lived before His time on earth, WILL be raised. Godly people who lived before the time of Christ would not be exempt form His saving - hence why he had to go and collect them from Hell (Hades) and shown to us in scripture in Acts. I do not have the actual scripture to support this at this time, but I am sure you are aware of what I am referring to, and if not, I could repost the actual scripture.

Truthwriter

Oct 14 2007, 12:33 AM

QUOTE

Jesus PREACHED to those in prison, bringing the gospel to the old testament saints at that point....they believed and were found to be IN CHRIST due to this. The "dead in Christ" are ALL believers Old and New testament who trust God and His Messiah. There is only ONE olive tree called, "All Israel" and we, by faith, have been grafted in. Jesus is the true vine and we are the branches.....

Jesus will not appear before the tribulation except in His first fruits....who then take the woman into the wilderness for 42 months.... there is NO pre-trib rapture. at the LAST TRUMP-1-2-3-4-5-6-7! Seventh trump--Jericho--Seventh trump--Fiery furnace -7 times hotter-- Daniel's 70th WEEK- 7 days- 7 years...at the LAST DAY is when Christ comes bodily to resurrect His people and catch us up to be with him....and YES..Those that REMAIN....if the rapture happened at the beginning of the trib- the question begs....remain through what?

I do listen to the Holy Spirit when I read scripture.......

Bro. Jon

I also listen to the Spirit while studying scripture and ask for guidance. Yet, I believe in a pre-trib rapture for the Chruch (the bride of Christ, not the bride of God). I believe there are many reasons scripturally to support my understanding. Also, the feasts and jewish traditions regarding wedding ceremonies. Rev. 4:1 is when the Church is taken (those who believe in Christ now) and the Jews who come to believe in Christ after this event takes place, will be those who "REMAIN" during those seven years, here on earth to go through their final week, the 70th week. That week was not appointed to today's believers in Christ, but to God's bride - Isreal; and Israel is told clearly they "will not enter His rest (in heaven)", while Christ tells us clearly we WILL enter His rest. Christ was given a peoples for Himself, for His coming to earth to bring God's Bride back to Him; Christ's Bride was not appointed to go through the tribulation, which is why salvation through grace now - not after God shows His hand clearly again to mankind - but BEFORE, through faith only; we are given the promise of His rest, and are taken before Israel begins their 70th week.

I have really gone deeply into this study and have much more to support my POV and would love to share more if interested; although it is long because of all the scripture I have which follows my understanding. The last trump is not the trump from the 7 trumps in Revelation - it's the last trump from the trump of the feast.

All of this is slimmed down ALOT from all I have compiled through my studies. HOWEVER, the MOST IMPORTANT fact is simply to believe in Christ because pre/mid/post rapture in the end is not the fact we need to truly concern ourselves with us because it is not this understanding or belief which will save us. Basically, I'm saying I don't get all worked up is someone thinks contrary to my belief, as long as they believe in Christ.

Blessings!

C

Oct 14 2007, 02:18 AM

QUOTE(Truthwriter @ Oct 14 2007, 07:16 AM) [snapback]124187[/snapback]

There were a lot of things I did not agree with scriptually from all the topics - and also some from the replies I read. Honestly, I may be repeating something. Please excuse - it's late and first post on this site.

One thing I really wanted to touch on was the comment I read about drinking wine being ok and how Jesus made wine and drank it.

Actually, I believe he made grape juice - and from my understanding, we are to drink it before it ferments (hence, before it becomes the alcoholic drink, wine). I do not think Jesus made "wine" I think he made grape juice and that was all he drank, not wine. Also, why he did not drink from offering while on the cross.

On a different note. As a new person, I am not able to start a new topic. I wanted to touch on something I recently bumped into online about the bible code, done by L0rd Kyr0N. I wanted to try and contact this person and can not find any way to do so. So, I wanted to know - (a) does anyone know how I can contact this person, (

if this person reads this, please contact me because I have a question about the code you posted re: Verichip and the mark on Exodus 2006 website. I ask because I have come across some very specific bible codes now appearing on the website and specific names being mentioned and they actually match information I wrote about in a book which I had released 8/04 and the information was actually on paper 6/04. Just needed to know if some of those codes were located and posted before or after I actually wrote about different prophectic topics in the book.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Blessings.

Hi and welcome to the forum, I pray that you will grow with us all here

You will soon be able to open a thread, as soon as you "probation" as a new member is over. We have had so many trolls here that we started monitoring people before letting them loose into the forum. Only a few more posts for you and you will be "free" !!

Concerning the wine. Here is some thoughts:1Ti 3:8 Deacons in like manner must be grave, not double-tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:9 holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

It would be difficult to explain why they must not be given to "much" grapejuice.

Jesus was called:
Mat 11:19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works.

Again, difficult to explain using grape juice.

Also, at a wedding grape juice would be grape juice and nobody would complain saying why did you save the best grape juice for last?

I think this says it best:

Rom 14:17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
Rom 14:18 For he that herein serveth Christ is well-pleasing to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 So then let us follow after things which make for peace, and things whereby we may edify one another.
Rom 14:20 Overthrow not for meat's sake the work of God. All things indeed are clean; howbeit it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
Rom 14:21 It is good not to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor to do anything whereby thy brother stumbleth.

SO again, my brother cannot stumble if I drink grape juice, but some can stumble if I drink wine. So Paul is saying, be weak to the weak and do not drink wine if a brother has a problem with it.Seeing that the Kingdom is not about eating and drinking.

I use to drink a lot, but God delivered me. These days I will have a glass of wine with a meal when I go out, but God has taken the love for it out of me. I agree with "not given to much wine" as that is wrong and ugly.

But, as the Bible teaches, we cannot and must not judge each other on whether we do or whether we don't, just on how much

Again, welcome
C

Simple

Oct 14 2007, 03:00 AM

QUOTE

However,

Jesus PREACHED to those in prison, bringing the gospel to the old testament saints at that point

I don't understand what is being said here, in this comment, or in Thunder's comments.

Are you really saying that the Saints of the old Testament were preached to in prison?

C

Oct 14 2007, 09:33 AM

Jesus , when He died, went down to Hades . He then preached the Gospel to those who were dead and in "Abraham's bosom" where Lazarus was (that is where the rich young man was telling Abraham about his thirst)
Those who believed Him, He then took with Him.Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now this, He ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)
That is the "prison" they are talking about.
C

leia

Oct 14 2007, 02:25 PM

C,

I hate to be a dullard, but I have always had trouble with this thought. If Jesus opened the door to heaven and no one ascended into heaven before the son, and the judgment and seperation of "you on my right and "you on my left" hasn't occured yet, when first the dead are called from the oceans then from the ground and then, says 2 Timothy the living will rise "who will not surely go before the dead", hasn't occured yet...how could they already be in the burny place if the time for judgement has occured yet? I mean, the trump hasn't sounded and the dead haven't been judged so how could they be in Hell?

leia

C

Oct 14 2007, 02:58 PM

QUOTE(leia @ Oct 14 2007, 09:25 PM) [snapback]124234[/snapback]

C,

I hate to be a dullard, but I have always had trouble with this thought. If Jesus opened the door to heaven and no one ascended into heaven before the son, and the judgment and separation of "you on my right and "you on my left" hasn't occurred yet, when first the dead are called from the oceans then from the ground and then, says 2 Timothy the living will rise "who will not surely go before the dead", hasn't occured yet...how could they already be in the burny place if the time for judgement has occured yet? I mean, the trump hasn't sounded and the dead haven't been judged so how could they be in Hell?

leia

No you are not a dullard at all. I find it complicated as well and I think that the reason might be that we both are suffering from lack of real Biblical info and maybe a touch of too much stuff that we have been taught to believe.
That said, I am not sure, because I have never done a study on this, but a few things comes to mind that makes me think that we might have the wrong end of the stick. At the very end we get told that Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire

So death and Hades are not Hell because the lake of fire comes last here.
Looking at the parable that Jesus told of the place of the dead, He tells us that is was divided in two: One was where the rich man was and the other was called "the bosom of Abraham" (that is empty now, because that is where Jesus went to, to preach to the righteous dead.)
In the very end is seems that after the last judgement, things will be far worse than it is now for those who died without Christ.

Maybe somebody else have done a good study on this and can help us out. If so, please open a thread about it.

C

leia

Oct 14 2007, 03:33 PM

Not a dullard, just not enough information.....C, you are wonderful.

But since this is a thread of false doctrines, I see no better place than to, once again, bring up that age old discussion on death, hades, hell (and whetther there is one) and whether we are on 'this side' of the thousand years awaiting the last trump or 'that side' of the thusand years awaiting the Gog Magog war.

AAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! (virtual scream)

Because I see yet another note book needs to be filled with what will turn out to be alot of the same notes I put down the last time I studied it......

Still, how many times have I gone over the Christmas story and learned one more little thing?

Thanks C, I will retire to study and eat a granola bar.

leia

shy1

Oct 14 2007, 03:53 PM

QUOTE(C @ Oct 14 2007, 02:58 PM) [snapback]124239[/snapback]

No you are not a dullard at all. I find it complicated as well and I think that the reason might be that we both are suffering from lack of real Biblical info and maybe a touch of too much stuff that we have been taught to believe.
That said, I am not sure, because I have never done a study on this, but a few things comes to mind that makes me think that we might have the wrong end of the stick. At the very end we get told that Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead that were in it; and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire

So death and Hades are not Hell because the lake of fire comes last here.
Looking at the parable that Jesus told of the place of the dead, He tells us that is was divided in two: One was where the rich man was and the other was called "the bosom of Abraham" (that is empty now, because that is where Jesus went to, to preach to the righteous dead.)
In the very end is seems that after the last judgement, things will be far worse than it is now for those who died without Christ.

Maybe somebody else have done a good study on this and can help us out. If so, please open a thread about it.

C

C,
This makes good sense to me! And I agree--leia is no dullard!

C

Oct 14 2007, 04:05 PM

mmm we get Granola bars even here in Africa

Here is the time-line I use : God created the world in seven days. He chose seven, not eight or nine. So make that (as He tells us) into one day = 1000 years. So where are we now? The morning of the seventh day or the morning of the millennium. That would be six days after the first Adam.

What happens on the morning of the seventh day? (Millennium, Sabbath...1000 years of peace: rest)

Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work ....................
So God is about to finish His work on the morning of the seventh day .7000 th Millennium
or

We are two days after the second Adam : Jesus. We are actually also in the morning of the Third Day. (what happens on the morning of the third day?)

We are about to "cross over"
Jos 3:1 And Joshua rose up early in the morning; and they removed from Shittim, and came to the Jordan, he and all the children of Israel; and they lodged there before they passed over.
Jos 3:2 And it came to pass after three days, that the officers went through the midst of the camp;
Jos 3:3 and they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark (Jesus was resurrected first 2000 years ago) of the covenant of Jehovah your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it.
Jos 3:4 Yet there shall be a space between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure: (about, because its a little more than 2000 years, it happens in the morning of the age ) come not near unto it, that ye may know the way by which ye must go; for ye have not passed this way heretofore.

Jordan is a type and shadow of death. So watch how far the waters went back . This is a picture of the resurrection of the dead in Christ. The curse goes away until Adam>

Jos 3:16 that the waters which came down from above stood, and rose up in one heap, a great way off, at Adam, the city that is beside Zarethan; and those that went down toward the sea of the Arabah, even the Salt Sea, were wholly cut off: and the people passed over right against Jericho.

How cool is that !

ALso:

Read the story of Joseph and see how Joseph is a picture of Jesus. This story also speaks of where Jesus went down into prison to preach to those in Hades. (butler and baker.......one lives the other dies) but then notice how this picture all of a sudden leaves and breaks the pattern of the type and shadow for Jesus: Joseph gets to stay in prison LONGER. Notice how long

Gen 41:1 And it came to pass at the end of two full years (2000 years after Jesus preached to those in prison ! ), that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river.
Gen 41:2 And, behold, there came up out of the river seven kine, well-favored and fat-fleshed; and they fed in the reed-grass.
Gen 41:3 And, behold, seven other kine came up after them out of the river, ill-favored and lean-fleshed, and stood by the other kine upon the brink of the river.
Gen 41:4 And the ill-favored and lean-fleshed kine did eat up the seven well-favored and fat kine. (Tribulation) So Pharaoh awoke.
Gen 41:5 And he slept and dreamed a second time: and, behold, seven ears of grain came up upon one stalk, rank and good. (again the tribulation .seven years)

We have just finished the first seven years of fat.

Interesting side note: On our radio , the government's financial adviser last week used these words : "We have come to the end of the fat years in our economy"

There are many more of these types and shadows that speaks of this being so. (Jericho: walk around for six days (6000 years) and on the seventh day (where we are now) walk around for seven days (tribulation) and what happens: the trumpets gets blown ! Count them

Jos 6:20 So the people shouted, and the priests blew the trumpets; and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, that the people shouted with a great shout, and the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

love C

C

Oct 14 2007, 04:24 PM

Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing; But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Simple

Oct 14 2007, 04:55 PM

QUOTE

He then preached the Gospel to those who were dead and in "Abraham's bosom" where Lazarus was (that is where the rich young man was telling Abraham about his thirst)

Which bible are you reading C?

Lazarus is being comforted in Abraham's bosom afar off from the rich man.
Are you saying Hell is a comfortable place C, where Abraham , the father of faith, hung out for a season or two?

QUOTE

C,

I hate to be a dullard, but I have always had trouble with this thought. If Jesus opened the door to heaven

You aren't dull by the way Leia.
How do you mean , Jesus opened the door to heaven?

Elijah has just popped into my mind, on his chariot. I let you do the foraging.

C

Oct 15 2007, 12:44 AM

QUOTE(simplebaby @ Oct 14 2007, 11:55 PM) [snapback]124259[/snapback]

QUOTE

He then preached the Gospel to those who were dead and in "Abraham's bosom" where Lazarus was (that is where the rich young man was telling Abraham about his thirst)

Which bible are you reading C?

Lazarus is being comforted in Abraham's bosom afar off from the rich man.
Are you saying Hell is a comfortable place C, where Abraham , the father of faith, hung out for a season or two?

QUOTE

C,

I hate to be a dullard, but I have always had trouble with this thought. If Jesus opened the door to heaven

You aren't dull by the way Leia.
How do you mean , Jesus opened the door to heaven?

Elijah has just popped into my mind, on his chariot. I let you do the foraging.

Maybe I am not very clear

The "holding place" for the dead before Jesus died was called Hades (NT) and called Sheol in the Old Testament.
According to Jesus this place had two sections;
Luk 16:23 And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom This points to Lazarus being "in" another place in Hades.
.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.

So one section had "flame"

But Abraham was not in hell, just in Hades.Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and Lazarus in like manner evil things: but now here he is comforted, and thou art in anguish.

One is in comfort and one is suffering.

Now in Hades there is a dividing gulf that separates the two areas.

Luk 16:26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, that they that would pass from hence to you may not be able, and that none may cross over from thence to us.

So from the side of the "flame" nobody could go to the side of the "bosom of Abraham" where the righteous dead were.

This side where "Abraham's bosom " was is now empty, when Jesus lead captivity captive. He took the keys of death and Hades:Rev 1:17.......saying, Fear not; I am the first and the last,
Rev 1:18 and the Living one; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive for evermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Now I believe that there can be more insight gain from more study in the Bible. Most of us were just taught about heaven and hell. But the Bible is less agreeing it seems upon what we teach on it.
........................

You mention Elijah. That is a very good question.

We see that Elijah went "up into heaven" . We always assume that it is talking about the dwelling place of God where the angels are and beautiful scenery etc. But that word in the Hebrew means:
H8064
שׁמה שׁמים
shâmayim shâmeh
shaw-mah'-yim, shaw-meh'
The second form being dual of an unused singular; from an unused root meaning to be lofty; the sky (as aloft; the dual perhaps alluding to the visible arch in which the clouds move, as well as to the higher ether where the celestial bodies revolve): - air, X astrologer, heaven (-s).

So Elijah went up into the sky. If we have to believe the rest of the Bible then he must have gone into Hades to wait for Jesus to redeem all men from the curse. Elijah , like all men, had to believe the gospel.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. So even Elijah falls into the " no one" catagory, so does Moses and all the OT saints. ALL had to first believe the gospel before they could "cometh unto the Father"

I am just sticking to what I see written and I am trying to not add what my traditions have taught me about it all.

C

Simple

Oct 15 2007, 03:59 AM

I am afraid I think of Paradise and Hell as 2 distinct and different places.

The fact that Paradise can be seen from Hell is all part of the torment.

Anyway, I am not sure we are supposed to understand paradise.

'Eye hath not seen' and all that.
'Things unlawful for a man to utter' and so on.

C

Oct 15 2007, 04:14 AM

QUOTE(simplebaby @ Oct 15 2007, 10:59 AM) [snapback]124299[/snapback]

I am afraid I think of Paradise and Hell as 2 distinct and different places.

The fact that Paradise can be seen from Hell is all part of the torment.

Anyway, I am not sure we are supposed to understand paradise.

'Eye hath not seen' and all that.
'Things unlawful for a man to utter' and so on.

Well we are in agreement then. Paradise and the place of torment are two separate places according to those scriptures, but they can be seen, one from the other.. Its just that when you read Rev you see that Hades will go into Hell later. IN Hades are a place of torment that is not Hell.

But its not important to know exactly. Its not going to save or not save us to know the exact place and the exact "how". All we know is that Jesus went "down" and emptied Hades's Paradise side, from those who were waiting for Him. Now they are with Him forever. We will also see them in when the first resurrection happens. They will be part of us through the Millennium reign. Well that is how I understand it.

C

leia

Oct 16 2007, 08:25 AM

Simplebaby,

I think scripture puts it that no one went before Jesus did unto heaven......I will have to find it, but I will.

C,

Could it be, possibly, that "seeing" is like having eyes to see things that are not right in front of you? That when we see things we are often seeing what is not there in front of us at all. We see them with the fullness of sight, it is said. We see things sometimes with eyes that are opened to thigs happening around the world and not in our own backyard. We feeel them more, perhaps and then the feeling is so strong that they are full of shape. Like an empath that has the knowledge of emothions down pat and knows the words that are associated with those emothions and so it is almost like hearing thoughts, but it is only preception of emotions, heightened.?

Perhaps that is more vague. But what I mean is se get "good" at hearing and knowing until we can see it in our eyes although it it not in front of us. And if God is involved showing us things, it might on have to be that we are even that good at the gift. John was not really in heaven when he saw but it unfolded all around him. He was transported, in spirit.

Could it be that this was also the case with the example above? Two places not connected at all except that one was allowed to see into the other upon necessity? I, quite frankly, do not want to see into there.

leia

C

Oct 16 2007, 09:31 AM

Yes leia, I think you are right. As I understand it, a vision is something that tries to give us a way of understanding something that is in the spirit. The spirit does not seem to reflect our reality , meaning its not a duplicate . Things are different in the spirit. That is why in Revelation John sees Jesus as a Lamb that was slain and in all the other forms that Jesus needed him to see him as. There were stars in His hand, then there were candlestick. Swords coming out of the Whitehorse-rider's mouth, flames out the mouths of the witnesses, dragons and water chasing the woman. etc etc. So all this is symbolic, because all this cannot be said in human terms in a way that would not be like the forum: an ongoing and ongoing discussion. I understand why the world cannot hold the books about Jesus if all had to be written, because how can our word describe all that He is ?

The Hades thing: I believe that it is a real enough place as we understand real, but it has spiritual laws (obviously) Its a "holding area" just like Paradise is also the "International Departure Lounge" . Its not the final destination. For one thing, we all get to come back to Earth first. Mat 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

Paul writes that at the very end, all, us , even Jesus, would be subjected unto God and so God will be all in all. The Bible does not tell us what we will be like then. It does not go that far, but we know that we will not be like we think we will be. It has never crossed the mind of a human, because God has never revealed it.

1Co 15:28 And when all things have been subjected unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

Just a side note: The Bible tells us of different ways to "see" That is another good subject to talk about.
Like : Calling things which are not as if they were (saying it is so, before seeing it with our eyes)
and a very important , much missed: Rev 19:10 .......... for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. AH, this is very important. Asking the Holy Spirit to open our eyes so that we can see the spirit of the Word and not just the letter. The letter is easy , but it kills (even in the NT) but the spirit brings life. For that we need the Holy Spirit, so that we can SEE what is there IN the letter.

A good example is : Those 3-D pictures hidden in pictures and then you have to look in a certain way to see the picture come out ! It is a bit like that, but not in the 3-D sense, just that there is more written there , right in front of our eyes. That is why Jesus kept saying: For those who have eyes to see......... meaning there is something more being said than meets the eye.
C

Simple

Oct 16 2007, 12:26 PM

Okay, well I am not going to agonize over this thread, because I think it is fairly insignificant in the bigger scheme of things.

So, very very briefly, when Jesus explained the resurection of the dead, Matt 22, he told the Sadducees:

'I am the God of the Living.'

QUOTE

Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

To my mind, that indicates that Abraham was already resurrected.

C

Oct 16 2007, 12:38 PM

Jesus was only correcting a false doctrine at that moment, because the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, therefor Jesus told them that God calls Himself the God of Abraham , Isaac and Jacob and that God would not call Himself the God of any dead person. That indicated that those three people's spirits were very much alive and not "dead" as the Sadducees believed. In fact Jesus does not really refer to people as dead, but as "asleep" because He knows that they are in fact somewhere at that moment where they still know who they are.

Joh 11:11 These things spake he: and after this he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus is fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 The disciples therefore said unto him, Lord, if he is fallen asleep, he will recover.
Joh 11:13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death: but they thought that he spake of taking rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

But you are right, its not a matter to get unhappy about. Their are important issues that we should be looking at. The time is short
C

Elise0205

Oct 20 2007, 06:40 AM

The Pentacostals? ARe Pentacostals the same as oneness pentacostals? ANd Jesus is God in the flesh? right? God is 1 and he manifested himself as Christ who is a part of the Holy Trinity? We don't have 3 God's , JEsus is a form of God in the flesh? Right?
I'm not Pentacostal , but I have been to their churches in the past and I did not know they believe all tese other things, but believing that Jesus is God is not wrong is it?

Anyway, this is a GREAT thread.. So what part do you think Free MAsons have to play in spiritual matters.. and do you have any advice on how to detect a Free MAson member if they are not wearing a ring? Right now I have a friend challenging me on my beliefs and the bible etc. basically mocking me, he is a teacher and feels he is very educated and smart , elite person. etc.. Proudly says he ahs not read a bible since he was 7 years old , but he believes in God. etc. etc.

QUOTE(Shaun333 @ May 1 2006, 09:35 AM) [snapback]58585[/snapback]

Here is a list of false doctrines and their descriptions. You will recognize these floating around this board. This is less a commentary post from me and more of something you can spot and be aware of that stems from the root of false teachings. Hence, FALSE DOCTRINE. Test EVERYTHING against what you see people say and bring up, especially when it is not from the Bible directly or stems from the heart of another "religion" such as mormonism or jehova's witness. Be aware and know.

I pray to Jesus people will not be blinded regarding False Doctrines.
And in His name may it be so.

This is done in Christ's love so that you will recognize and be aware thus becoming wise in it, which we all, including myself need to be better at:

JEHOVA'S WITNESS

Like all non-Christian cults, the Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. To support its erring doctrines, the Watchtower organization (which is the author and teacher of all official Jehovah's Witness theology), has even altered the Bible to make it agree with its changing and non-Christian teachings.
Typical with cults that use the Bible to support its position is a host of interpretive errors:

Taking verses out of their immediate context.
Refusing to read verses in the entire biblical context.
Inserting their theological presuppositions into the text.
Altering the Biblical text to suit their needs.
Latching onto one verse to interpret a host of others.
Changing the meanings of words.
Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
Adding to the Word of God.

The Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians because they believe they are serving the true and living God. Like many cults, they think they are the only true church on earth. Yet, they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies. Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines (Trinity, deity of Christ, etc) and into the notion that they alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers.
Primarily, the Jehovah's Witness organization is a mind control organization that uses its people to pass out literature and send in "donations" to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible." The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967. p. 587.
The Watchtower organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a non-Christian organization that uses its people to promulgate false doctrines, sell a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families.

It is a non-Christian cult.

Mormonism

The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it, like any other cult, denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically), Mormonism distorts two of them: the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.
Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.
Because Mormonism errors in who Jesus is, salvation (the forgiveness of sins) does not occur and the Mormon is still in his sins. Christians are saved from their sins and judgment by putting their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. But, faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. The Mormon Jesus is not the one of the Bible, even though they call him Jesus, say he died for sins, and was born in Bethlehem. The Mormon Jesus does not exist. It is the nature of Jesus that is the issue. Jesus must be God in flesh, (second person of the Trinity) not "a" god in flesh who is the brother of the devil. He must be uncreated, not created. He must be the creator (Col. 1:16-17). This is who the true Jesus really is: God, creator, uncreated, not the brother of the devil.
Mormon theology teaches that god used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. The Jesus of Mormonism is definitely not the same Jesus of the Bible. Therefore, faith in the Mormon Jesus, is faith misplaced because the Mormon Jesus doesn't exist.
Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. Consider James Talmage, a very important Mormon figure who said, "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil" (Articles, p. 432), and "Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience" (Articles, p. 81). This contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation but a result of them (Rom. 4:5, James 2:14-18).
To further confuse the matter, Mormonism further states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone, the Bible does teach it. Which is correct? Obviously, it is the Bible.

Seventh Day Adventism

Denials

Denies the doctrine of predestination
Denies baptism by sprinkling
Denies infant baptism.
Denies the immortality of the soul.
Denies the eternality of hell fire.
Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco.
Aberrant

Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan
Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).
On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.
Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.
The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.
The wicked are annihilated.
Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.
There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work.

Univeralism

Universalism teaches that all people will ultimately be saved no matter what they believe here on earth. You could deny God, hate Him, blaspheme against Him, join a satanist group and murder people and still go to heaven.

Kabbalah

teaches...

God has 10 aspects through which creation was realized.

The the truths of Kabbalah were given to the angels first, then to Adam, then Abraham, and finally to Moses.

The human soul preexisted before coming to earth.

Reincarnation of the soul.

Higher realms of consciousness

Multiple universes

The interconnectedness of all levels of consciousness, angels, demons, thoughts, incarnations, etc.

"There are four primary archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael.

"Liliel is the Angel of the Night...Lilith is considered to be the arch she-devil." Sandalphon is the angel of prayer as is Michael,

There are two Messiahs, one from the lineage of Joseph and the other from David

The fall of Adam and Eve was because they failed to make a rectification that would bring "the universe to a new level of consciousness."

It is possible to have a direct experience with God without the need of a mediator such as Jesus.

Oneness Pentecostal

Denies the doctrine of the Trinity.
Denies justification by faith alone by stating that baptism is also required for salvation.
Jesus is God the Father.
Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
The name of God is "Jesus."
Baptism is necessary for salvation.
Denies pre-existence of the Word as the Son. Teaches that the He existed as the Father.
Being born again means repentance, baptism, and speaking in tongues.
Baptism must be administered by an ordained Oneness minister to be valid.
Baptism must be administered with the phrase, "In the name of Jesus" instead of the phrase, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).
Speaking in tongues is a necessary requirement to demonstrate that a person has been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and is, therefore, saved. It is claimed to be the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
Restitution of all things, though the devil and the angels will not be restored.
Women may be pastors.
Only Oneness people will go to heaven.

Christian Science

The following doctrines are referenced out of the primary Christian Science work,
Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, by Mary Baker Eddy.
It is supposed to be a companion to the Bible.
Science and Health together with the Bible are called the Pastor of Christian Science.

God is infinite...and there is no other power or source, S&H, 471:18.
God is Universal Principle, S&H 331:18-19
God cannot indwell a person, S&H 336:19-20
God is the only intelligence in the universe, including man S&H 330:11-12
God is Mind, S&H 330:20-21; 469:13
God is the Father-Mother, S&H 331:30; 332:4
The Trinity is Life, Truth, and Love, S&H 331:26
Belief in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity is polytheism, S&H 256:9-11
Christ is the spiritual idea of sonship S&H 331:30-31
Jesus was not the Christ, S&H 333:3-15; 334:3
"Jesus Christ is not God, as Jesus himself declared..." S&H 361:12-13
Jesus did not reflect the fullness of God, S&H 336:20-21
Jesus did not die, S&H 45:32-46:3
The Holy Spirit is divine science, S&H 331:31
There is no devil, S&H 469:13-17
There is no sin, S&H 447:24
Evil and good are not real, S&H, 330:25-27; 470:9-14
Matter, sin, and sickness are not real, but only illusions," S&H 335:7-15;
447:27-28.
Life is not material or organic, "S&H, 83:21
The sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient to cleanse from sin, "S&H, 25:6.
True healings are the result of true belief, "S&H, 194:6"

Christadelphians

Though they acknowledge many truths found in the Bible, they deny many others.

They believe the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. (The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, p. 82)
They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45)
They teach that Jesus had a sin nature (What They Believe, p. 74)
They teach that Jesus needed to save himself, before he could save us. (Christadelphian Answers, p. 24)
They teach that Jesus will return and set up his kingdom on earth. (What They Believe , p. 268)
They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply)
They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187).
They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. (What They Believe , p. 71,72, 207-210)
They believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. (What They Believe , p. 212)
They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87)
They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22)
They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86)
They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115)
They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71)
They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204)
They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17).
They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17)
They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189)
They deny the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer as the devil. (Answers, p. 100)

New Age Movement

The New Age movement has many sub-divisions, but it is generally a collection of Eastern-influenced metaphysical thought systems, a conglomeration of theologies, hopes, and expectations held together with an eclectic teaching of salvation, of "correct thinking," and "correct knowledge." It is a theology of "feel-goodism," "universal tolerance," and "moral relativism."
In the NAM. Man is central. He is viewed as divine, as co-creator, as the hope for future peace and harmony. A representative quote might be: "I am affected only by my thoughts. It needs but this to let salvation come to all the world. For in this single thought is everyone released at last from fear."

REFERENCE THIS WHEN YOU FEEL UNSURE WITHIN YOUR SPIRIT ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE READING

Shekel

Oct 20 2007, 09:18 AM

QUOTE(Shaun333 @ May 1 2006, 12:35 PM) [snapback]58585[/snapback]

Here is a list of false doctrines and their descriptions. You will recognize these floating around this board. This is less a commentary post from me and more of something you can spot and be aware of that stems from the root of false teachings. Hence, FALSE DOCTRINE. Test EVERYTHING against what you see people say and bring up, especially when it is not from the Bible directly or stems from the heart of another "religion" such as mormonism or jehova's witness. Be aware and know.

I pray to Jesus people will not be blinded regarding False Doctrines.
And in His name may it be so.

This is done in Christ's love so that you will recognize and be aware thus becoming wise in it, which we all, including myself need to be better at:

JEHOVA'S WITNESS

Like all non-Christian cults, the Jehovah's Witness organization distorts the essential doctrines of Christianity. It denies the deity of Christ, His physical resurrection, and salvation by grace. This alone makes it non-Christian. To support its erring doctrines, the Watchtower organization (which is the author and teacher of all official Jehovah's Witness theology), has even altered the Bible to make it agree with its changing and non-Christian teachings.
Typical with cults that use the Bible to support its position is a host of interpretive errors:

Taking verses out of their immediate context.
Refusing to read verses in the entire biblical context.
Inserting their theological presuppositions into the text.
Altering the Biblical text to suit their needs.
Latching onto one verse to interpret a host of others.
Changing the meanings of words.
Proclaiming some passages to be figurative when they contradict their doctrines.
Adding to the Word of God.

The Jehovah's Witnesses consider themselves to be Christians because they believe they are serving the true and living God. Like many cults, they think they are the only true church on earth. Yet, they deny the Trinity, the deity of Christ, the personhood of the Holy Spirit, Jesus' physical resurrection, and salvation by grace through faith.
The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies. Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines (Trinity, deity of Christ, etc) and into the notion that they alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers.
Primarily, the Jehovah's Witness organization is a mind control organization that uses its people to pass out literature and send in "donations" to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York.

"Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible." The Watchtower, Oct. 1, 1967. p. 587.
The Watchtower organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a non-Christian organization that uses its people to promulgate false doctrines, sell a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families.

It is a non-Christian cult.

Mormonism

The reason Mormonism is not Christian is because it, like any other cult, denies one or more of the essential doctrines of Christianity. Of the essential doctrines (Jesus is God in flesh, forgiveness of sins is by grace alone, and Jesus rose from the dead physically), Mormonism distorts two of them: the person of Jesus, and His work of salvation.
Mormonism teaches that God the Father has a body of flesh and bones (D. & C. 130:22) and that Jesus is a creation. It teaches that he was begotten in heaven as one of God’s spirit children (See the Book, Jesus the Christ, by James Talmage, p. 8). This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator all (John 1:3; Col. 1;16-17). Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time. Though Mormonism teaches that Jesus is god in flesh, it teaches that he is "a" god in flesh, one of three gods that comprise the office of the Trinity (Articles of Faith, by Talmage, pp. 35-40). These three gods are the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is in direct contradiction of the biblical doctrine that there is only one God (Isaiah 44:6,8; 45:5). See Trinity for a correct discussion of what the Trinity is.
Because Mormonism errors in who Jesus is, salvation (the forgiveness of sins) does not occur and the Mormon is still in his sins. Christians are saved from their sins and judgment by putting their trust in Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins. But, faith is only as good as the object in which it is placed. The Mormon Jesus is not the one of the Bible, even though they call him Jesus, say he died for sins, and was born in Bethlehem. The Mormon Jesus does not exist. It is the nature of Jesus that is the issue. Jesus must be God in flesh, (second person of the Trinity) not "a" god in flesh who is the brother of the devil. He must be uncreated, not created. He must be the creator (Col. 1:16-17). This is who the true Jesus really is: God, creator, uncreated, not the brother of the devil.
Mormon theology teaches that god used to be a man on another planet, that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of that god on that world, and that he brought one of his wives to this world with whom he produces spirit children who then inhabit human bodies at birth. The first spirit child to be born was Jesus. Second was Satan, and then we all followed. The Jesus of Mormonism is definitely not the same Jesus of the Bible. Therefore, faith in the Mormon Jesus, is faith misplaced because the Mormon Jesus doesn't exist.
Mormonism teaches that the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross itself (and receiving it by faith) is not sufficient to bring forgiveness of sins. It teaches that the forgiveness of sins is obtained though a cooperative effort with God; that is, we must be good and follow the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church in order to obtain forgiveness. Consider James Talmage, a very important Mormon figure who said, "The sectarian dogma of justification by faith alone has exercised an influence for evil" (Articles, p. 432), and "Hence the justice of the scriptural doctrine that salvation comes to the individual only through obedience" (Articles, p. 81). This contradicts the biblical doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9) and the doctrine that works are not part of our salvation but a result of them (Rom. 4:5, James 2:14-18).
To further confuse the matter, Mormonism further states that salvation is twofold. It maintains that salvation is both forgiveness of sins and universal resurrection. So when a Mormon speaks of salvation by grace, he is usually referring to universal resurrection. But the Bible speaks of salvation as the forgiveness of sins, not simple universal resurrection. Where Mormonism states that forgiveness of sins is not by faith alone, the Bible does teach it. Which is correct? Obviously, it is the Bible.

Seventh Day Adventism

Denials

Denies the doctrine of predestination
Denies baptism by sprinkling
Denies infant baptism.
Denies the immortality of the soul.
Denies the eternality of hell fire.
Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco.
Aberrant

Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan
Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).
On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.
Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.
The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.
The wicked are annihilated.
Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.
There is a sanctuary in heaven where Jesus carries out his mediatorial work.

Univeralism

Universalism teaches that all people will ultimately be saved no matter what they believe here on earth. You could deny God, hate Him, blaspheme against Him, join a satanist group and murder people and still go to heaven.

Kabbalah

teaches...

God has 10 aspects through which creation was realized.

The the truths of Kabbalah were given to the angels first, then to Adam, then Abraham, and finally to Moses.

The human soul preexisted before coming to earth.

Reincarnation of the soul.

Higher realms of consciousness

Multiple universes

The interconnectedness of all levels of consciousness, angels, demons, thoughts, incarnations, etc.

"There are four primary archangels: Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, and Raphael.

"Liliel is the Angel of the Night...Lilith is considered to be the arch she-devil." Sandalphon is the angel of prayer as is Michael,

There are two Messiahs, one from the lineage of Joseph and the other from David

The fall of Adam and Eve was because they failed to make a rectification that would bring "the universe to a new level of consciousness."

It is possible to have a direct experience with God without the need of a mediator such as Jesus.

Oneness Pentecostal

Denies the doctrine of the Trinity.
Denies justification by faith alone by stating that baptism is also required for salvation.
Jesus is God the Father.
Jesus is the Holy Spirit.
The name of God is "Jesus."
Baptism is necessary for salvation.
Denies pre-existence of the Word as the Son. Teaches that the He existed as the Father.
Being born again means repentance, baptism, and speaking in tongues.
Baptism must be administered by an ordained Oneness minister to be valid.
Baptism must be administered with the phrase, "In the name of Jesus" instead of the phrase, "In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19).
Speaking in tongues is a necessary requirement to demonstrate that a person has been baptized in the Holy Spirit, and is, therefore, saved. It is claimed to be the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost.
Restitution of all things, though the devil and the angels will not be restored.
Women may be pastors.
Only Oneness people will go to heaven.

Christian Science

The following doctrines are referenced out of the primary Christian Science work,
Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures, by Mary Baker Eddy.
It is supposed to be a companion to the Bible.
Science and Health together with the Bible are called the Pastor of Christian Science.

God is infinite...and there is no other power or source, S&H, 471:18.
God is Universal Principle, S&H 331:18-19
God cannot indwell a person, S&H 336:19-20
God is the only intelligence in the universe, including man S&H 330:11-12
God is Mind, S&H 330:20-21; 469:13
God is the Father-Mother, S&H 331:30; 332:4
The Trinity is Life, Truth, and Love, S&H 331:26
Belief in the traditional doctrine of the Trinity is polytheism, S&H 256:9-11
Christ is the spiritual idea of sonship S&H 331:30-31
Jesus was not the Christ, S&H 333:3-15; 334:3
"Jesus Christ is not God, as Jesus himself declared..." S&H 361:12-13
Jesus did not reflect the fullness of God, S&H 336:20-21
Jesus did not die, S&H 45:32-46:3
The Holy Spirit is divine science, S&H 331:31
There is no devil, S&H 469:13-17
There is no sin, S&H 447:24
Evil and good are not real, S&H, 330:25-27; 470:9-14
Matter, sin, and sickness are not real, but only illusions," S&H 335:7-15;
447:27-28.
Life is not material or organic, "S&H, 83:21
The sacrifice of Jesus was not sufficient to cleanse from sin, "S&H, 25:6.
True healings are the result of true belief, "S&H, 194:6"

Christadelphians

Though they acknowledge many truths found in the Bible, they deny many others.

They believe the Bible is the infallible and inerrant word of God. (The Christadelphians: What They Believe and Preach, p. 82)
They teach there is only one God. (Isaiah 43-45)
They teach that Jesus had a sin nature (What They Believe, p. 74)
They teach that Jesus needed to save himself, before he could save us. (Christadelphian Answers, p. 24)
They teach that Jesus will return and set up his kingdom on earth. (What They Believe , p. 268)
They believe that there has been an apostasy and that Christianity is a false religious system. (A tract titled “Christendom Astray Since the Apostolic Age, Detroit Christadelphian Book Supply)
They believe annihilation of the wicked. (What They Believe, p. 187).
They believe that baptism is necessary for salvation. (What They Believe , p. 71,72, 207-210)
They believe that it is possible to lose one’s salvation. (What They Believe , p. 212)
They deny the doctrine of the Trinity. (What They Believe, p. 84-87)
They deny that Jesus is God in flesh. (Answers, p. 22)
They deny that Jesus existed prior to his incarnation. (What They Believe , p. 85,86)
They deny the personhood and deity of the Holy Spirit. (What They Believe , p. 115)
They deny the substitutionary atonement of Christ. (Answers, p. 25; What They Believe, p. 71)
They deny salvation by grace through faith alone. (What they Believe, p. 204)
They deny immortality of the soul. (What They Believe , p. 17).
They deny that a person exists after death. (What They Believe, p. 17)
They deny the existence of hell and eternal punishment. (What They Believe, p. 188-189)
They deny the existence of the fallen angel Lucifer as the devil. (Answers, p. 100)

New Age Movement

The New Age movement has many sub-divisions, but it is generally a collection of Eastern-influenced metaphysical thought systems, a conglomeration of theologies, hopes, and expectations held together with an eclectic teaching of salvation, of "correct thinking," and "correct knowledge." It is a theology of "feel-goodism," "universal tolerance," and "moral relativism."
In the NAM. Man is central. He is viewed as divine, as co-creator, as the hope for future peace and harmony. A representative quote might be: "I am affected only by my thoughts. It needs but this to let salvation come to all the world. For in this single thought is everyone released at last from fear."

REFERENCE THIS WHEN YOU FEEL UNSURE WITHIN YOUR SPIRIT ABOUT WHAT YOU ARE READING

This is a good list of groups that are cults, or seriously flawed doctines. However, I would not put mormons and say, Seventh Day Adventists in the same camp. Nor would I put Jehovah Witnessess in the same camp as Oneness Pentecostals.

The one is flawed to the point of where there is not enough truth to be saved there. The other has enough, but they will suffer for what the error brings, (for all error brings suffering).

There are a lot of true and sincere believers in Seventh Day Adventists, Oneness Pentecostals, and even Christadelphians. But I would flee anyone of these three if I were in them. But there is enough of the truth there to be saved.

And why did we not put Roman Catholicism in this group. Her doctrine is worse than the Seventh Day Adventists, Oneness Pentecostals, and Christadelphians put together, although in her too, I believe, there are many truly saved individuals.

But God says about all erroring and scismatic groups, "Come out from her my people lest you be a partaker of her sins and of her plagues."

And to answer the post by Elise0205 (and a hearty welcome to you!),

no, the vast majority of Pentecostals are not oneness, although they came out of Pentcostalism. The Pencostal churches themselves repudiate them. I know this for I graduated in a Pentecostal College many years ago, although I no longer am part of them

Indeed, all that put their faith and hope in Jesus with a sincere heart for salvation, even though they be confused on agreat number of things, are saved. Otherwise we make intellect and knowledge the road to savation, and that would make us a Gnostic!

And in God's eyes there is only one Church. And it is made up of all who have been redeemed by the blood of Lamb, that is, all who have put their trust in Jesus for salvation, even if they are grossly confused on some points of doctrine.

Bananna

Oct 29 2007, 08:17 PM

I find these accusations against God's servants repugnant personally.

Be careful how you judge another's servant.

JMO
bananna

kmeckley

Nov 17 2007, 08:43 PM

[font=Verdana][size=5]

A sort of "silver lining" in the very existence of false doctrine is that of how BEAUTIFUL the TRUTH continues to look in contrast! The Lord could be more harsh with the purveyors of falsehood during
this time, but appears to be leaving that for the final (unbeliever's) judgement. In the mean time we are sharpened of mind and spirit by being quick to identify and reject such non-Biblical teachings.

dannyishere

Jan 12 2008, 04:34 PM

Guys check out this video:
http://www.proofdirectory.com/videoindex.htm
it's describing:

'Trusting the Bible | Prophecy and Probability '

awesome!

ichtacaiuitl

Mar 15 2008, 11:01 AM

http://the-end.com/2008GodsFinalWitness/

http://www.wonderfulworldtomorrow.org/book..._Book_US_UK.pdf

If you like video's, try reading, their are a lot of theory's out there, including the Mayan end of the calender!

But one thing we can count on is Faith!

Maz

Mar 15 2008, 02:25 PM

Cults are one thing but denominations are really divisions...who has the trump card in all reality? Truth is not divided. Lies have divided us all.

wateredtree

Mar 15 2008, 02:48 PM

I think that so many doctrines that have divided us are not so important to God. I mean of course someone is right and someone is wrong. All of us probably have some doctrine that isnt quite right. But the most important thing to God is that we know Him and love Him and that we love others. If we do that and have some things wrong I don't think He is too concerned about it. On the other hand, if we have all our doctrines correct and do not love we have missed it all. Who does Jesus say that He is going to say depart from me for I did not know you to? Although I know the answer is more detailed it ultimatley comes down to, Did you love Me? Did you love others? Many people believed that they were sons and daughters of Abraham and Jesus said no they were sons and daughters of the devil. In the same way we can say that we know Jesus and not know Him at all. On the other hand, some people can think that they do not follow Jesus, when in reality they really do, they just have not figured out who they are following yet. But they know they serve a God of love and mercy. Is that not our LORD?

Maz

Mar 15 2008, 03:22 PM

QUOTE (wateredtree @ Mar 15 2008, 01:48 PM)

I think that so many doctrines that have divided us are not so important to God. I mean of course someone is right and someone is wrong. All of us probably have some doctrine that isnt quite right. But the most important thing to God is that we know Him and love Him and that we love others. If we do that and have some things wrong I don't think He is too concerned about it. On the other hand, if we have all our doctrines correct and do not love we have missed it all. Who does Jesus say that He is going to say depart from me for I did not know you to? Although I know the answer is more detailed it ultimatley comes down to, Did you love Me? Did you love others? Many people believed that they were sons and daughters of Abraham and Jesus said no they were sons and daughters of the devil. In the same way we can say that we know Jesus and not know Him at all. On the other hand, some people can think that they do not follow Jesus, when in reality they really do, they just have not figured out who they are following yet. But they know they serve a God of love and mercy. Is that not our LORD?

Well written here...as long as we have the core gospel message of our need for a saviour and what a great sacrifice was made for us, we are going to be kept against that day.

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

brigster103

Mar 17 2008, 08:03 PM

QUOTE (wateredtree @ Mar 15 2008, 12:48 PM)

I think that so many doctrines that have divided us are not so important to God. I mean of course someone is right and someone is wrong. All of us probably have some doctrine that isnt quite right. But the most important thing to God is that we know Him and love Him and that we love others. If we do that and have some things wrong I don't think He is too concerned about it. On the other hand, if we have all our doctrines correct and do not love we have missed it all. Who does Jesus say that He is going to say depart from me for I did not know you to? Although I know the answer is more detailed it ultimatley comes down to, Did you love Me? Did you love others? Many people believed that they were sons and daughters of Abraham and Jesus said no they were sons and daughters of the devil. In the same way we can say that we know Jesus and not know Him at all. On the other hand, some people can think that they do not follow Jesus, when in reality they really do, they just have not figured out who they are following yet. But they know they serve a God of love and mercy. Is that not our LORD?

Wateredtree is right on!!!
In 1st Corinthians 13, Paul speaks about charity. He says that if he is the 'best person in the world' and doesn't have charity, then he is nothing. Why is their so much bickering about who is right and who is wrong. People lose themselves in the quest for finding what is EXACTLY right. If they would just focus their attention instead on being charitable and being Christ-like, the world would be a much better place. I do understand the need to know the truth, but most of these 'cults' are not cults, but really do attempt to be more Christ-like. I have attended services at a majority of these congregations, and most are what I would call, Christians.

I cannot stress the importance of being Christ-like. I truly believe that people of all sects and religions will be 'Saved'. People of Muslim faith, and people of Buddhist faith, who truly believe in God and try to help others and be 'Christ-like' will be saved much more readily than those who believe in the true Christ and don't ever practice true religion.
____________________
Brigster103
Escali Scales|Counting Scale|Bath Scale

WilliamCoburn

May 14 2008, 08:43 AM

I know first hand about how wrong the Jehovah's Witnesses are on well... everything

here is the 4 line description of my book about growing up a JW:

A father who says “Jesus is the only way to Salvation”
A mother who says “The Watchtower Society is the only way to Salvation”
And a scared little boy…
THE SPANKING ROOM: A Child’s Eye View of the Jehovah’s Witnesses

DracoJesi

May 15 2008, 11:47 PM

QUOTE

New Age Movement

The New Age movement has many sub-divisions, but it is generally a collection of Eastern-influenced metaphysical thought systems, a conglomeration of theologies, hopes, and expectations held together with an eclectic teaching of salvation, of "correct thinking," and "correct knowledge." It is a theology of "feel-goodism," "universal tolerance," and "moral relativism."
In the NAM. Man is central. He is viewed as divine, as co-creator, as the hope for future peace and harmony. A representative quote might be: "I am affected only by my thoughts. It needs but this to let salvation come to all the world. For in this single thought is everyone released at last from fear."

this isn't correct.

Man isn't seen as the Divine, but a part of the Divine, that we are all one, interconnected....

and think about, If God was the only thing in the universe at one time, then what did he use to make us? wouldn't he have have used some of is own energy, I mean he has an infinite supply of it doesn't he? and if he did, that would mean that we are a part of him, connected to him

and that brings tolerance yes, for we can help influence the bigger picture, (that doesn't mean we have just as much power as God, I never said that) and that God as many aspects as well, in the Christian sense, this is Father,Son, and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

it also sees nature, as part of the Divine, and sacred, it also means that we shouldn't harm are brother, or sister, for hey are also a part of us., and us them, it's a difficult concept for some.

and it's a movement, not really a religious doctrine, being you can follow the movement and belong to a number of religions, because the New Age movement doesn't really as you to give anything up other than the acceptance that everything is connected.

and you took some things out of context, thoughts are seen as being able to greatly affect us, however, The New Age Movement doesn't say that only thoughts influence us, and that we only need them for salvation, it just doesn't.

as for feel-goodism, not really, sure the concept of all being one can make you feel really good, but so can the concept God looking out for you, I'm not going to say that there aren't those who get into it to feel good, because there are, but theres people in every religion who have joined for the wrong reasons.

just because something feels good, or gives you faith and hope, doesn't mean it's bad or evil.... and a fact of life, you can get addicted to anything, even God.

thats not to say he doesn't exist, some people expect him to take care of all there problems instead of trying to resolve them them selfs, he's a busy man....

as for Christianity, I see it as an Abrahamic religion with the belief in Christ as the savor and Messiah, which is Bible based.

by that definition, I see Catholics as Christians as well as Jehovah's Witnesses, Protestants, ect.

they all believe in Christ and are of an Abrahamic nature correct?

they just she Christ and other aspects differently, but he is still there.

however, it appears you have a different definition than I, so I would be interested to know what constitutes as Christian by your definition.

but I must say, I find that the term "False Doctrines" is... well, offensive

I mean who really knows which is the right one, except God, The Divine, (insert preferred name here)

you may be right, I may be wrong, or vice versa, or maybe we are both right, or both completely wrong.

sometimes the best you can do is say, "I believe this to be the correct way because....." or my version of this which goes

"I don't think there is one true path that leads to the Divine, but this path makes more since to and for me because...."

but weather or not you think those viewpoints are Christian or not, perhaps a title that is less offensive is in order, for sake of communication, because again you may be right, or you may be wrong, but if you don't look at all possibilities, then you'll never know.

for understanding, and learning..... perhaps a title such as "Other Doctrines" or even "Non-Christian Doctrines" would be more appropriate

and you don't have to believe in them, but well, to go and call all of them false, doesn't promote a healthy relationship with the people of those Doctrines.

steve9534

Jun 14 2008, 08:25 PM

[

b]Seventh Day Adventism[/b]

Denials

De arnies the doctrine of predestination
Denies baptism by sprinkling
Denies infant baptism.
Denies the immortality of the soul.
Denies the eternality of hell fire.
Denies any use of alcohol (as a drink) or tobacco.
Aberrant

Our sins will ultimately be placed on Satan
Jesus is Michael the Archangel.
Worship must be done on Saturday (the Sabbath).
On October 22, 1844 Jesus entered the second and last phase of his atoning work.
Investigative Judgment - the fate of all people will be decided based upon this event in the future.
The dead do not exist anymore -- soul sleep.
The wickede annihilated.
Ellen G. White, the "founder" of Seventh Day Adventism, was a messenger from God gifted with the spirit of prophecy.
There