I’m grateful for having you guys around because you serve as a safe guard.

I'll second this!!!! You guys are great.
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...is really testing the members of this site, and the site itself, wouldn't you agree?
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John 12:26
Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

If you brake that down you should see several promising things.
Maybe you can brake it down for us! 
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Yes, and it seems to be happening with increasing frequency these past few months! Atheist onslaught, etc. We've also lost members recently over one thing or another, but some have come back. I really hate to see people go, because I think this is an exceptional place to be--there is no other place like this anywhere, really. It's like a front-row seat to the end-times theater, with lots of prophetic commentary to go with it. And there's the fellowship, too. It's like family most of the time.
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It would be an easy time for someone to come in with something more to deceive with as well.

Yes, completely agree.

The devil can also blind people's eyes to the truth as well, including the elect.
  Something to look out for.
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I don't know who were asking but here ya go Jack....
"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also [the servant will not be any different than Jesus; he will have to go the way Jesus went]; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him." (John 12:25-26 RSV)

Here is the great Christian paradox, the unmistakable mark of an authentic gospel: It begins with dying, with a cross. If the gospel that you hear preached on the radio, the television, or wherever, does not begin with a cross, does not begin by telling you that something in you has to die, it is not the true gospel. This is the identifying mark. How these words of Jesus cut across the philosophy of life today! Every television program, every magazine, every popular song, all present the philosophy, "Your life is your own! Live it the way you please! Watch out for No. 1! Do your own thing! Live so that you can join with Frank Sinatra singing, 'I Did It My Way'!" But Jesus declares that if you follow that philosophy you will lose everything. Life will slip through your fingers no matter what you do. You can gain all the material abundance you could ever wish for, the plaudits of the crowd, recognition by the whole world, but if you live that way you will end up with nothing; your life will be a total waste of time.

"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." That doesn't mean you have to hate yourself. It means you must recognize that living for yourself will never supply what you really want out of life. Only as you surrender to the Lordship of Christ can that be brought about. That is why the gospel includes a cross, and why the cross has become the symbol of Christian faith. If the message you are hearing today does not begin there, then it's a false gospel. If you are being told that the way to gain a deep and wonderful sense of self-esteem is to simply come to Jesus and let him build you up and make you feel good about yourself you are not hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. It does not begin that way. It starts with a cross.

Let me share with you the words of Dr. A. W. Tozer, the great preacher of a few decades ago:

The cross is the symbol of death. It stands for the abrupt, violent end of the human being. The man in Roman times who took up his cross and started down the road had already said goodbye to his friends. He was not coming back. He was not going out to have his life redirected. He was going out to have it ended. The cross made no compromise, modified nothing, spared nothing. It slew all of the man completely and for good. It did not try to keep on good terms with its victim. It struck swift and hard and when it had finished its work the man was no more. That evangelism which draws friendly parallels between the ways of God and the ways of man is false to the Bible and cruel to the soul of the hearers. The faith of Christ does not parallel the world. It intersects it. In coming to Christ we do not bring our life up on to a higher plane. We leave it at a cross. The grain of wheat must fall into the ground and die. That is the beginning of the gospel.

Also it's not the end. The end is, "If it dies, it bears much fruit." That is where life begins. There is a life we are all born with that must end. It is a self-centered life, that thinks only of itself, seeks advantage for itself, is ambitious and proud. That life has to die. That is the beginning of the gospel. But if it dies, then another life takes its place, a life that is gracious, loving, lovely, peaceful, filled with joy, gladness and a deep sense of self-esteem, knowing who it is and what it was made to be. That is the rest of the gospel. You cannot reverse these two, although people try to. They jump immediately to the end of the gospel -- life in Christ -- without first going to the cross. But that cannot be. Jesus said so: "If any one serves me he must follow me, and where I am there shall my servant be also. He must go where I've gone."

In terms of daily, practical experience, what does Jesus mean, "He who comes after me must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me"? (Luke 9:23). What does it mean to bear your cross daily? It means two things: First, it means a once-for-all decision; and secondly, a continuing series of choices. That is what the cross stands for:

First, it is a surrender of the rule of your life to Jesus. It is a recognition that your life is not your own. The key words of the Christian faith are, "You are not your own, you are bought with a price," (1 Corinthians 19b-20a). Actually, you never were your own. That is an illusion that the world is perpetrating upon us through the media. They tell us that we belong to ourselves, that we have a right to ourselves. That is a lie. It's not true. It never was. "You are not your own; you are bought with a price."

This is the beginning of true life: To recognize that fact, to surrender your claim to yourself, to give up your right to run your own affairs, and to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus, to do what he says, and to stop what he says to stop. That hurts. It cancels out your own plans. It confounds your ambitions at times. It feels like death. It is death; it's a form of dying.

It also means to daily follow up on that decision. Keep doing what is right. Stop doing what is wrong, and do it all in the strength of Jesus' love and companionship! The result is that you will truly begin to live. New power will come, to do what is right. New joy will be yours, an inner peace that nothing can take away, a new ability to love even those you could not love before, because a new life is yours. You have found a new Lordship and a new life.

Our Lord uses this symbol of a grain of wheat not only of himself but of everyone who follows him. Have you ever heard a grain of wheat talking to itself? I'm going to stretch your imagination a little and ask you to imagine a grain of wheat looking at itself, admiring itself. So round, so brown, so fully packed, and saying to itself, "This philosophy I hear asks me to fall into that dark, cold ground and lose myself. I don't want to do that. I like myself. I want to stay what I am. I want to hang on to myself, I want to be myself."

Does that sound familiar? If the grain of wheat wants to remain the same, it has that right. But, according to the word of Jesus, it will never change. Three thousand-year-old grains of wheat found in the tombs of the Pharaohs were found to be absolutely the same as any grain of wheat today. In fact, when they were planted they began to grow. They were totally unchanged for 3,000 years or more.

But supposing the grain of wheat said, "Well, I'm told there is more to come, a lot more than I'm experiencing, and the only way I can have it is to fall into that dark ground and die. So I guess I'll do it." And it does so. It falls into the ground and is covered up. It's dark and unpleasant there. The grain of wheat begins to think, "What a fool I was! Why did I ever listen to that idea? Look what's happened to me! I don't like this at all." But then it begins to feel a tickle on its back. It turns around and sees a white sprout coming out. It says, "What is this that's happening? I didn't anticipate this at all. I've got to hold a committee meeting with myself and decide what to do about this. I'm in charge. I've got to determine whether that thing is going to go sideways, up or down, or whatever."

While it's trying to determine that, it discovers there is a hidden lordship which began to take over the moment it fell into the ground. This lordship directs the process quite apart from what the grain of wheat may feel, directing that a certain part goes down, while another part goes up and soon breaks through into the sunlight. Then the grain begins to say, "Oh, this is better. I'm beginning to enjoy this. It's not as bad as I thought." The sprout comes, then the blade, then the stalk, and finally the head. The grain of wheat says, "I feel fulfilled." (Filled full, is the idea.) Then those grains in the head fall into the ground and they go through the process again and again until at last a great, shimmering field of wheat is growing, beautiful, rippling and golden in the sun. The grain of wheat says, "Ah, this is life as it was intended to be." Fruitful -- that is what the end of the gospel is.

If you belong to Jesus, every day will have its cross, every day will have something you ought to do but you don't feel like doing. That is your cross. "He who follows me must take up his cross daily and follow me," Luke 9:23). Every day has its bit of death in order that it might bring forth life. The end result is a life so glorious, so complete, so obviously what we were made for that I can hardly find the words to describe it. But the testimony of millions is that it's all true. Life comes only out of death.

You will find this thought everywhere in Scripture. It doesn't make any difference whether it's the Old Testament or the New Testament. But you will find this only in the Bible! No other book on earth will tell you that this is the way to life; only the Bible, only the words of Jesus. But his word is true, as he has demonstrated, and as the testimony of almost 2,000 years bear witness, he brings life through death. This is the choice that lies before us. If we choose to die with Him, then we shall live. "Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."
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Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
Faith in the Faithful and True Living Word to you all.

Shaun,
you wrote..
"It would be an easy time for someone to come in with something more to deceive with as well."

It's always easy for someone to try and come to this forum to deceive. There
are plenty of people that name the name of Christ that post comments against the
Word of God all the time. We have the Holy Word and the provision through the blood
of our Savior to receive the Holy Spirit to teach and lead us in all Truth. It is nobody's fault but their own if they are deceived.
Pamela wrote the following as part of her post..
"God's people parish because of the lack of knowledge of what His word says. And if we don't seek God, He won't reveal those things in His word, our ears remain become deaf and our eyes remain blind."

And there are many people that make untrue comments simply because of that lack of knowledge. Such as you did in your post. I'll address your errant comment after
showing with scripture the importance of the Words we speak or write.

Mat.12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Even if you believe something to be true if you utter a lie it's a lie. If you post something that is against the Word of God then you bear false witness against Him.

Now, please allow me to show you how easily that's done.

you wrote..
"The devil can also blind people's eyes to the truth as well, including the elect."

Jesus said in..
Mat.24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs
and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the
very elect.

I've seen it posted a couple of different times on this forum where people have made
the statement that the elect can be deceived. That is an absolute utter lie and it exalts itself against the knowledge of God. The reason that the elect cannot be deceived is because they are taught by God not by man. They hear the voice of God and the Holy Spirit guides them in all truth.
We are in the last days and the prophecies of Jesus concerning false prophets is here.
Pamela is right...If we don't seek God He won't reveal those things(the Truth)
in his Word.

2Tim.4:3,4
For the time will come(it's now here) when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto
*fables(fiction).

You read or heard somewhere from someone else (other than God) that the elect could be deceived and you haphazardly wrote it in your post. Then someone else
reads it from you and they say it to someone else...and so on. Don't come here or
go anywhere else in the name of Christ with 'hearsay'!!!
Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Now go to Rev.19:13 and see what his name is called.

The oil in your lamp is the Word of Truth divinely revealed to you by God's Holy Spirit. That alone will keep your lamp lit and allow you to endure until the end.

Mat.4:4c,d,e
Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.

lastly you wrote..
"Something to look out for."

Unless you know what the truth is by the Holy Spirit you won't have a clue what to look out for. Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

If you study and God teaches you the truth then when someone speaks the lie you
know it and can refute it with the Faithful and True Living Word of God. Studying is
not going to school, or listening to messages on web sites or reading posts on forums. Studying is you...all alone...broken before God knowing and bringing nothing
but your garment dipped in the blood of Jahshua to the throne of Grace and boldly
with reverent awe asking for the Holy Spirit to teach you. Then you read his Word
without any distractions or thoughts of lifes burdens. Your eye must be single or
your body will be full of darkness.
If you approach God with anything less than total surrender you will receive nothing
from Him. Death to self is the beginning.
BUT, when you lay it down and put 100% of your trust and Faith in Him He
will not fail you ever.

A good habit to get into is..
Read a chapter from Proverbs to start your day. With 31 chapters you'll read through the whole book about once a month.
Knowledge, Wisdom, and Understanding.

Also, read a chapter from Psalms every night before bed. You'll learn the character
of God as well as how to praise Him as David. Read aloud and experience the praises, the grace, the laws, the precepts, the commandments, the mercies, the testimonies, the judgments, the statutes, the counsel, and the faithfulness of our God..the Living Word.

Also, seek our Father for the daily bread of His Word. He will guide you in what to
read to feed, nourish, and admonish you with the Truth so there will be no occasion
of stumbling in you. Praise His Name.

Shaun, Please don't take my exhortation as a rebuke but rather as a reproof. I am
for you not against you.

Prov.6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Peace, Tom

PS. Read the second scripture of my signature.
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Shaun,
you wrote..
"It would be an easy time for someone to come in with something more to deceive with as well."

It's always easy for someone to try and come to this forum to deceive. There
are plenty of people that name the name of Christ that post comments against the
Word of God all the time. We have the Holy Word and the provision through the blood
of our Savior to receive the Holy Spirit to teach and lead us in all Truth. It is nobody's fault but their own if they are deceived.

you wrote..
"The devil can also blind people's eyes to the truth as well, including the elect."

Jesus said in..
Mat.24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs
and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the
very elect.


I've seen it posted a couple of different times on this forum where people have made
the statement that the elect can be deceived. That is an absolute utter lie and it exalts itself against the knowledge of God. The reason that the elect cannot be deceived is because they are taught by God not by man. They hear the voice of God and the Holy Spirit guides them in all truth.
We are in the last days and the prophecies of Jesus concerning false prophets is here.
Pamela is right...If we don't seek God He won't reveal those things(the Truth)
in his Word.

You read or heard somewhere from someone else (other than God) that the elect could be deceived and you haphazardly wrote it in your post. Then someone else
reads it from you and they say it to someone else...and so on. Don't come here or
go anywhere else in the name of Christ with 'hearsay'!!!
Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord. Now go to Rev.19:13 and see what his name is called.

lastly you wrote..
"Something to look out for."

Unless you know what the truth is by the Holy Spirit you won't have a clue what to look out for. Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman that needs not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

If you study and God teaches you the truth then when someone speaks the lie you
know it and can refute it with the Faithful and True Living Word of God. Studying is
not going to school, or listening to messages on web sites or reading posts on forums.

Shaun, Please don't take my exhortation as a rebuke but rather as a reproof. I am
for you not against you.

Yes, so it is true, but sometimes Christians, inlcuding myself and you need to be reminded of these things at specific times where this board may be a bit more ripe for the picking.
I completely disagree that it is "always" easy for someone to come in and deceive. If a certain disruption is fresh off this board or a recent heavy deception that took out some members, it is quite an obvious thing to be aware that there may be a let down in spirit and to watch carefully for a wave of deception. Hence, this would make it easier, such was my point quite frankly that was made into a point by you that really didn't even need to be elaborated upon.



Honestly, you need to be quite careful with your tone, and I assure you, I'm being VERY polite here. You indeed need to be very careful that you do not build yourself up and become wise in your own eyes. I can admit mistakes, and have no problem doing so, you sound like your bucking for a job in the crusades. You say "don't come here or anywhere else in the name of Christ with "hearsay". Who may I ask are you. Show some respect, you are quite new here and while yes sound doctrine is sound doctrine, you apparently feel the need to "correct" in your own mind in very Pharisee like way.

Needless to say, the Biblical quotes that Charlie brought up are the ones that I would have brought into this which are:

Romans 11
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

James 1
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

People that believe in Jesus can fall away and be led astray. This is not say that they cannot enter back into the fold or return such the Prodigal son.


and some that I would bring up:

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."
(Colossians 2:8).

There is a possibility of being led astray through empty philospohy etc, if there was not, Jesus wouldn't have even bothered with the warning.

Matt 24:9-14
10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.

This is a form of deception, being led away from the faith. Such was my meaning originally. Being the "elect" is subjective. You, no doubt consider yourself a part of the elect. The minute you think that you can never be deceived is the moment that you will be. Take note.

Here's a lesson for you:

In John 17:12, Jesus says that he had lost none of those the Father had given to him except for Judas. So of those the Father gave him, Jesus lost Judas. You can be given by the Father to Jesus "at one time" and yet not be given to stay with Jesus.

Was Judas one of the "elect" at one time or did he consider himself as such?

In 1 Cor. 9:23-27, Paul tells us that not every runner who runs in the race will receive a prize and that he pommels his body to subdue it, lest after preaching salvation to others he himself would be disqualified. So Paul did not even consider his own salvation certain, but recognized that he too could fall away if he did not discipline himself in holiness.

In 1 Cor. 15:1-2, Paul tells us that we will be saved by the gospel if we hold it fast, unless we believe in vain. So Paul indicates that we "can" believe in vain.

Since we want to look at individual words.

In Heb. 10:23-29, the author tells us, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering", "For if we [go on sinning] deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?"

We can all be led astray or walk away from the faith, period. This is a great form of deception and an even greater one is to stand on one verse that says "if it were possible" and translate that into a meaning that says we NEVER can be. With that attitude, you will be one of the first to be deceived.






Thank you for the above lesson. Perhaps, since you have found it necessary to pick apart my entire post, you should have split the above part and taken it in sections. The "Something to" and the "look out for". The way you have come into this is very Church of Christ like and guess what, it's obnoxious. Perhaps if I walked on the wrong side of the street or the side that you considered the wrong one, I should be done away. We will all have things to answer for to God, including yourself, which I'm sure you may find difficult to believe. Take a minute and do some studying on your own regarding log's in your eye and mirrors. We are alll sinners.






Unfortunately, the way you have approached it says otherwise.
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Amen Shaun.......

Tom believes he is one of the 144,000 chosen.  Said so on another thread.

Tom, did you not say this?
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Thank you for clearing that up Marta. That explains a great deal.
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Yes, God willing, I will be moving to Israel this spring. That's the land promised to
me/us. I have an overwhelming desire to live out my days in His service in the
land of promise. I am one of the hundred and forty four thousands. That's where
I belong.
When things start falling into place I will keep you updated.

Tom
The elect who end up at the end with Christ were not deceived and could not be deceived. But I ask you "Do you know who they are? Everyone who thinks they are elect, may not be and all who think they are saints may not be. Some are, but not all. I can behold the most vile sinner today and he or She might end up in the kingdom tomorrow. It is indeed possible for those who think they are elect now to be deceived because these scriptures say so.

Romans 11
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

James 1
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.


Charlie
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John 12:26
Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

If you brake that down you should see several promising things.
Maybe you can brake it down for us! 
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I don't know who were asking but here ya go Jack....
"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. If any one serves me, he must follow me; and where I am, there shall my servant be also [the servant will not be any different than Jesus; he will have to go the way Jesus went]; if any one serves me, the Father will honor him." (John 12:25-26 RSV)

Here is the great Christian paradox, the unmistakable mark of an authentic gospel: It begins with dying, with a cross. If the gospel that you hear preached on the radio, the television, or wherever, does not begin with a cross, does not begin by telling you that something in you has to die, it is not the true gospel. This is the identifying mark. How these words of Jesus cut across the philosophy of life today! Every television program, every magazine, every popular song, all present the philosophy, "Your life is your own! Live it the way you please! Watch out for No. 1! Do your own thing! Live so that you can join with Frank Sinatra singing, 'I Did It My Way'!" But Jesus declares that if you follow that philosophy you will lose everything. Life will slip through your fingers no matter what you do. You can gain all the material abundance you could ever wish for, the plaudits of the crowd, recognition by the whole world, but if you live that way you will end up with nothing; your life will be a total waste of time.

"He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life." That doesn't mean you have to hate yourself. It means you must recognize that living for yourself will never supply what you really want out of life. Only as you surrender to the Lordship of Christ can that be brought about. That is why the gospel includes a cross, and why the cross has become the symbol of Christian faith. If the message you are hearing today does not begin there, then it's a false gospel. If you are being told that the way to gain a deep and wonderful sense of self-esteem is to simply come to Jesus and let him build you up and make you feel good about yourself you are not hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ. It does not begin that way. It starts with a cross.

Let me share with you the words of Dr. A. W. Tozer, the great preacher of a few decades ago:

The cross is the symbol of death. It stands for the abrupt, violent end of the human being. The man in Roman times who took up his cross and started down the road had already said goodbye to his friends. He was not coming back. He was not going out to have his life redirected. He was going out to have it ended. The cross made no compromise, modified nothing, spared nothing. It slew all of the man completely and for good. It did not try to keep on good terms with its victim. It struck swift and hard and when it had finished its work the man was no more. That evangelism which draws friendly parallels between the ways of God and the ways of man is false to the Bible and cruel to the soul of the hearers. The faith of Christ does not parallel the world. It intersects it. In coming to Christ we do not bring our life up on to a higher plane. We leave it at a cross. The grain of wheat must fall into the ground and die. That is the beginning of the gospel.

Also it's not the end. The end is, "If it dies, it bears much fruit." That is where life begins. There is a life we are all born with that must end. It is a self-centered life, that thinks only of itself, seeks advantage for itself, is ambitious and proud. That life has to die. That is the beginning of the gospel. But if it dies, then another life takes its place, a life that is gracious, loving, lovely, peaceful, filled with joy, gladness and a deep sense of self-esteem, knowing who it is and what it was made to be. That is the rest of the gospel. You cannot reverse these two, although people try to. They jump immediately to the end of the gospel -- life in Christ -- without first going to the cross. But that cannot be. Jesus said so: "If any one serves me he must follow me, and where I am there shall my servant be also. He must go where I've gone."

In terms of daily, practical experience, what does Jesus mean, "He who comes after me must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me"? (Luke 9:23). What does it mean to bear your cross daily? It means two things: First, it means a once-for-all decision; and secondly, a continuing series of choices. That is what the cross stands for:

First, it is a surrender of the rule of your life to Jesus. It is a recognition that your life is not your own. The key words of the Christian faith are, "You are not your own, you are bought with a price," (1 Corinthians 19b-20a). Actually, you never were your own. That is an illusion that the world is perpetrating upon us through the media. They tell us that we belong to ourselves, that we have a right to ourselves. That is a lie. It's not true. It never was. "You are not your own; you are bought with a price."

This is the beginning of true life: To recognize that fact, to surrender your claim to yourself, to give up your right to run your own affairs, and to surrender to the Lordship of Jesus, to do what he says, and to stop what he says to stop. That hurts. It cancels out your own plans. It confounds your ambitions at times. It feels like death. It is death; it's a form of dying.

It also means to daily follow up on that decision. Keep doing what is right. Stop doing what is wrong, and do it all in the strength of Jesus' love and companionship! The result is that you will truly begin to live. New power will come, to do what is right. New joy will be yours, an inner peace that nothing can take away, a new ability to love even those you could not love before, because a new life is yours. You have found a new Lordship and a new life.

Our Lord uses this symbol of a grain of wheat not only of himself but of everyone who follows him. Have you ever heard a grain of wheat talking to itself? I'm going to stretch your imagination a little and ask you to imagine a grain of wheat looking at itself, admiring itself. So round, so brown, so fully packed, and saying to itself, "This philosophy I hear asks me to fall into that dark, cold ground and lose myself. I don't want to do that. I like myself. I want to stay what I am. I want to hang on to myself, I want to be myself."

Does that sound familiar? If the grain of wheat wants to remain the same, it has that right. But, according to the word of Jesus, it will never change. Three thousand-year-old grains of wheat found in the tombs of the Pharaohs were found to be absolutely the same as any grain of wheat today. In fact, when they were planted they began to grow. They were totally unchanged for 3,000 years or more.

But supposing the grain of wheat said, "Well, I'm told there is more to come, a lot more than I'm experiencing, and the only way I can have it is to fall into that dark ground and die. So I guess I'll do it." And it does so. It falls into the ground and is covered up. It's dark and unpleasant there. The grain of wheat begins to think, "What a fool I was! Why did I ever listen to that idea? Look what's happened to me! I don't like this at all." But then it begins to feel a tickle on its back. It turns around and sees a white sprout coming out. It says, "What is this that's happening? I didn't anticipate this at all. I've got to hold a committee meeting with myself and decide what to do about this. I'm in charge. I've got to determine whether that thing is going to go sideways, up or down, or whatever."

While it's trying to determine that, it discovers there is a hidden lordship which began to take over the moment it fell into the ground. This lordship directs the process quite apart from what the grain of wheat may feel, directing that a certain part goes down, while another part goes up and soon breaks through into the sunlight. Then the grain begins to say, "Oh, this is better. I'm beginning to enjoy this. It's not as bad as I thought." The sprout comes, then the blade, then the stalk, and finally the head. The grain of wheat says, "I feel fulfilled." (Filled full, is the idea.) Then those grains in the head fall into the ground and they go through the process again and again until at last a great, shimmering field of wheat is growing, beautiful, rippling and golden in the sun. The grain of wheat says, "Ah, this is life as it was intended to be." Fruitful -- that is what the end of the gospel is.

If you belong to Jesus, every day will have its cross, every day will have something you ought to do but you don't feel like doing. That is your cross. "He who follows me must take up his cross daily and follow me," Luke 9:23). Every day has its bit of death in order that it might bring forth life. The end result is a life so glorious, so complete, so obviously what we were made for that I can hardly find the words to describe it. But the testimony of millions is that it's all true. Life comes only out of death.

You will find this thought everywhere in Scripture. It doesn't make any difference whether it's the Old Testament or the New Testament. But you will find this only in the Bible! No other book on earth will tell you that this is the way to life; only the Bible, only the words of Jesus. But his word is true, as he has demonstrated, and as the testimony of almost 2,000 years bear witness, he brings life through death. This is the choice that lies before us. If we choose to die with Him, then we shall live. "Truly, truly I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit."
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hey Rosie, the LORD be with you too!
  (Bisous) (= kisses in French) read BEEZOO
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I am still on the wave dream someone had and
in the wave the dreamer saw Hebrew letters and C'est 42.  What exactly
does c'est mean?

Yes, so it is true, but sometimes Christians, inlcuding myself and you need to be reminded of these things at specific times where this board may be a bit more ripe for the picking.
I completely disagree that it is "always" easy for someone to come in and deceive. If a certain disruption is fresh off this board or a recent heavy deception that took out some members, it is quite an obvious thing to be aware that there may be a let down in spirit and to watch carefully for a wave of deception. Hence, this would make it easier, such was my point quite frankly that was made into a point by you that really didn't even need to be elaborated upon.



Honestly, you need to be quite careful with your tone, and I assure you, I'm being VERY polite here. You indeed need to be very careful that you do not build yourself up and become wise in your own eyes. I can admit mistakes, and have no problem doing so, you sound like your bucking for a job in the crusades. You say "don't come here or anywhere else in the name of Christ with "hearsay". Who may I ask are you. Show some respect, you are quite new here and while yes sound doctrine is sound doctrine, you apparently feel the need to "correct" in your own mind in very Pharisee like way.

Needless to say, the Biblical quotes that Charlie brought up are the ones that I would have brought into this which are:

Romans 11
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either.
22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

James 1
16 Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

People that believe in Jesus can fall away and be led astray. This is not say that they cannot enter back into the fold or return such the Prodigal son.


and some that I would bring up:

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."
(Colossians 2:8).

There is a possibility of being led astray through empty philospohy etc, if there was not, Jesus wouldn't have even bothered with the warning.

Matt 24:9-14
10 "And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another.
11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many.

This is a form of deception, being led away from the faith. Such was my meaning originally. Being the "elect" is subjective. You, no doubt consider yourself a part of the elect. The minute you think that you can never be deceived is the moment that you will be. Take note.

Here's a lesson for you:

In John 17:12, Jesus says that he had lost none of those the Father had given to him except for Judas. So of those the Father gave him, Jesus lost Judas. You can be given by the Father to Jesus "at one time" and yet not be given to stay with Jesus.

Was Judas one of the "elect" at one time or did he consider himself as such?

In 1 Cor. 9:23-27, Paul tells us that not every runner who runs in the race will receive a prize and that he pommels his body to subdue it, lest after preaching salvation to others he himself would be disqualified. So Paul did not even consider his own salvation certain, but recognized that he too could fall away if he did not discipline himself in holiness.

In 1 Cor. 15:1-2, Paul tells us that we will be saved by the gospel if we hold it fast, unless we believe in vain. So Paul indicates that we "can" believe in vain.

Since we want to look at individual words.

In Heb. 10:23-29, the author tells us, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering", "For if we [go on sinning] deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?"

We can all be led astray or walk away from the faith, period. This is a great form of deception and an even greater one is to stand on one verse that says "if it were possible" and translate that into a meaning that says we NEVER can be. With that attitude, you will be one of the first to be deceived.






Thank you for the above lesson. Perhaps, since you have found it necessary to pick apart my entire post, you should have split the above part and taken it in sections. The "Something to" and the "look out for". The way you have come into this is very Church of Christ like and guess what, it's obnoxious. Perhaps if I walked on the wrong side of the street or the side that you considered the wrong one, I should be done away. We will all have things to answer for to God, including yourself, which I'm sure you may find difficult to believe. Take a minute and do some studying on your own regarding log's in your eye and mirrors. We are alll sinners.






Unfortunately, the way you have approached it says otherwise.
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