The Antichrist- Leader of a Ten Nation Confederacy who takes over the underground Jewish Temple during the Mid Week War in the Mid East and requires everyone to take a UPC Mark on their hand or forward to be able to buy and sell. He tries to persecute the fleeing Jews, but fails. He turns his wrath on Christians and the Two Witnesses. He comes to his end at the Battle of Armageddon.
The 144,000- Believing Jewish virgin men, throughout the world, who evangelize during the second half of Daniel's 70th week and are seen standing with Jesus on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 years.
The Two Witnesses- Elijah and Enoch (some say Moses) returned to earth who evangelize and torment unbelievers for the last 3 1/2 years. They are killed by the Antichrist and then Resurrect before the world's eyes-rising up to the heavens.
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
Jewish Believers- Those Jews living in Jerusalem, who believe the prophecies, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel (possibly Petra) when they see the Antichrist take over the underground secret Jewish Sanctuary or Holy of Holies and place the Abomination of Desolation or command computer there. They are protected there for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist forces and are Raptured at the Last Trump.
Jewish Unbelievers- They are persecuted in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week in Jacob's trouble where only a portion survives till they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. They convert at this time and run for protection into the valley that forms when Jesus' foot touches the Mt. of Olives. They enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies (their Promised Land) with Jesus as their King and the Saints as their leaders.
Unbelievers Who Take the Mark- These damned souls go through the Wrath of God and are destroyed by the Brightness of Jesus' Coming. They live again after the 1000 years are over and then are destroyed again and stand before the Great White Judgment to be thown into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers Who Refuse to Take the Mark- If these survivalists make it to the Millennium Kingdom they will be the ones who are at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on there Wedding Garments- they are cast out in the Sheep and Goat judgment to join the other unbelievers who have taken the Mark.
Unbelievers Who Refuse the Mark and Convert at Jesus' Appearance in the Clouds- these are the Gentiles who have not taken the Mark and become believers at the 2nd Coming. They are the mortals who live in the nations surrounding Israel who have to come up to Jeruslem yearly on the Feast of the Tabernacles to worship the King or they do not get any rain.
The final question is, "Which group will you be in?"
Orates
Full Version: Who's Who In The Millennium?
I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! 
QUOTE
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
I am prepared to be homeless, vagrant an insane resister to the Antichrist's marking system (UPC to you too).
QUOTE(Adonaicole @ Apr 20 2006, 02:50 PM)
QUOTE
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
I am prepared to be homeless, vagrant an insane resister to the Antichrist's marking system (UPC to you too).
[right][snapback]55459[/snapback][/right]
I sure have a lot of preparing to do, but heck, I've always like the outdoors!
Seriously though, It will get bad...real bad. Put that armour of God and hold on tight!
I've done a ton of preparations, but the more I prepare the more I realize that there is only one preparation that is necessary. Set your heart to fully follow God and he will guide through the rest.
Amen to that Adonaicole!!!
edit... it took me 3 times to spell your name correctly!!!
sorry 
edit... it took me 3 times to spell your name correctly!!!
sorry
QUOTE(Orates @ Apr 20 2006, 10:57 AM)
The Antichrist- Leader of a Ten Nation Confederacy who takes over the underground Jewish Temple during the Mid Week War in the Mid East and requires everyone to take a UPC Mark on their hand or forward to be able to buy and sell. He tries to persecute the fleeing Jews, but fails. He turns his wrath on Christians and the Two Witnesses. He comes to his end at the Battle of Armageddon.
The 144,000- Believing Jewish virgin men, throughout the world, who evangelize during the second half of Daniel's 70th week and are seen standing with Jesus on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 years.
The Two Witnesses- Elijah and Enoch (some say Moses) returned to earth who evangelize and torment unbelievers for the last 3 1/2 years. They are killed by the Antichrist and then Resurrect before the world's eyes-rising up to the heavens.
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
Jewish Believers- Those Jews living in Jerusalem, who believe the prophecies, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel (possibly Petra) when they see the Antichrist take over the underground secret Jewish Sanctuary or Holy of Holies and place the Abomination of Desolation or command computer there. They are protected there for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist forces and are Raptured at the Last Trump.
Jewish Unbelievers- They are persecuted in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week in Jacob's trouble where only a portion survives till they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. They convert at this time and run for protection into the valley that forms when Jesus' foot touches the Mt. of Olives. They enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies (their Promised Land) with Jesus as their King and the Saints as their leaders.
Unbelievers Who Take the Mark- These damned souls go through the Wrath of God and are destroyed by the Brightness of Jesus' Coming. They live again after the 1000 years are over and then are destroyed again and stand before the Great White Judgment to be thown into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers Who Refuse to Take the Mark- If these survivalists make it to the Millennium Kingdom they will be the ones who are at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on there Wedding Garments- they are cast out in the Sheep and Goat judgment to join the other unbelievers who have taken the Mark.
Unbelievers Who Refuse the Mark and Convert at Jesus' Appearance in the Clouds- these are the Gentiles who have not taken the Mark and become believers at the 2nd Coming. They are the mortals who live in the nations surrounding Israel who have to come up to Jeruslem yearly on the Feast of the Tabernacles to worship the King or they do not get any rain.
The final question is, "Which group will you be in?"
Orates
[right][snapback]55434[/snapback][/right]
The 144,000- Believing Jewish virgin men, throughout the world, who evangelize during the second half of Daniel's 70th week and are seen standing with Jesus on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 years.
The Two Witnesses- Elijah and Enoch (some say Moses) returned to earth who evangelize and torment unbelievers for the last 3 1/2 years. They are killed by the Antichrist and then Resurrect before the world's eyes-rising up to the heavens.
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
Jewish Believers- Those Jews living in Jerusalem, who believe the prophecies, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel (possibly Petra) when they see the Antichrist take over the underground secret Jewish Sanctuary or Holy of Holies and place the Abomination of Desolation or command computer there. They are protected there for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist forces and are Raptured at the Last Trump.
Jewish Unbelievers- They are persecuted in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week in Jacob's trouble where only a portion survives till they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. They convert at this time and run for protection into the valley that forms when Jesus' foot touches the Mt. of Olives. They enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies (their Promised Land) with Jesus as their King and the Saints as their leaders.
Unbelievers Who Take the Mark- These damned souls go through the Wrath of God and are destroyed by the Brightness of Jesus' Coming. They live again after the 1000 years are over and then are destroyed again and stand before the Great White Judgment to be thown into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers Who Refuse to Take the Mark- If these survivalists make it to the Millennium Kingdom they will be the ones who are at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on there Wedding Garments- they are cast out in the Sheep and Goat judgment to join the other unbelievers who have taken the Mark.
Unbelievers Who Refuse the Mark and Convert at Jesus' Appearance in the Clouds- these are the Gentiles who have not taken the Mark and become believers at the 2nd Coming. They are the mortals who live in the nations surrounding Israel who have to come up to Jeruslem yearly on the Feast of the Tabernacles to worship the King or they do not get any rain.
The final question is, "Which group will you be in?"
Orates
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There won't be any unbelievers or anti-christ in the melinium. They are removed before the melinium starts. There will be Christ and His two witnesses on His Left and right. There will be twelve thrones for the apostles. 24 thrones for the elders 144 thousand thrones for the saints and aprox 2.4 billion subjects of the kingdom. All of which came out of every nation tribe and tongue and all adopted into the twelve tribes of the new Israel.
Charlie
QUOTE(Adonaicole @ Apr 20 2006, 02:16 PM)
I've done a ton of preparations, but the more I prepare the more I realize that there is only one preparation that is necessary. Set your heart to fully follow God and he will guide through the rest.
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[right][snapback]55476[/snapback][/right]
Amen!
QUOTE(Orates @ Apr 20 2006, 01:57 PM)
The Antichrist- Leader of a Ten Nation Confederacy who takes over the underground Jewish Temple during the Mid Week War in the Mid East and requires everyone to take a UPC Mark on their hand or forward to be able to buy and sell. He tries to persecute the fleeing Jews, but fails. He turns his wrath on Christians and the Two Witnesses. He comes to his end at the Battle of Armageddon.
The 144,000- Believing Jewish virgin men, throughout the world, who evangelize during the second half of Daniel's 70th week and are seen standing with Jesus on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 years.
The Two Witnesses- Elijah and Enoch (some say Moses) returned to earth who evangelize and torment unbelievers for the last 3 1/2 years. They are killed by the Antichrist and then Resurrect before the world's eyes-rising up to the heavens.
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
Jewish Believers- Those Jews living in Jerusalem, who believe the prophecies, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel (possibly Petra) when they see the Antichrist take over the underground secret Jewish Sanctuary or Holy of Holies and place the Abomination of Desolation or command computer there. They are protected there for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist forces and are Raptured at the Last Trump.
Jewish Unbelievers- They are persecuted in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week in Jacob's trouble where only a portion survives till they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. They convert at this time and run for protection into the valley that forms when Jesus' foot touches the Mt. of Olives. They enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies (their Promised Land) with Jesus as their King and the Saints as their leaders.
Unbelievers Who Take the Mark- These damned souls go through the Wrath of God and are destroyed by the Brightness of Jesus' Coming. They live again after the 1000 years are over and then are destroyed again and stand before the Great White Judgment to be thown into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers Who Refuse to Take the Mark- If these survivalists make it to the Millennium Kingdom they will be the ones who are at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on there Wedding Garments- they are cast out in the Sheep and Goat judgment to join the other unbelievers who have taken the Mark.
Unbelievers Who Refuse the Mark and Convert at Jesus' Appearance in the Clouds- these are the Gentiles who have not taken the Mark and become believers at the 2nd Coming. They are the mortals who live in the nations surrounding Israel who have to come up to Jeruslem yearly on the Feast of the Tabernacles to worship the King or they do not get any rain.
The final question is, "Which group will you be in?"
Orates
[right][snapback]55434[/snapback][/right]
The 144,000- Believing Jewish virgin men, throughout the world, who evangelize during the second half of Daniel's 70th week and are seen standing with Jesus on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 years.
The Two Witnesses- Elijah and Enoch (some say Moses) returned to earth who evangelize and torment unbelievers for the last 3 1/2 years. They are killed by the Antichrist and then Resurrect before the world's eyes-rising up to the heavens.
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
Jewish Believers- Those Jews living in Jerusalem, who believe the prophecies, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel (possibly Petra) when they see the Antichrist take over the underground secret Jewish Sanctuary or Holy of Holies and place the Abomination of Desolation or command computer there. They are protected there for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist forces and are Raptured at the Last Trump.
Jewish Unbelievers- They are persecuted in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week in Jacob's trouble where only a portion survives till they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. They convert at this time and run for protection into the valley that forms when Jesus' foot touches the Mt. of Olives. They enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies (their Promised Land) with Jesus as their King and the Saints as their leaders.
Unbelievers Who Take the Mark- These damned souls go through the Wrath of God and are destroyed by the Brightness of Jesus' Coming. They live again after the 1000 years are over and then are destroyed again and stand before the Great White Judgment to be thown into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers Who Refuse to Take the Mark- If these survivalists make it to the Millennium Kingdom they will be the ones who are at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on there Wedding Garments- they are cast out in the Sheep and Goat judgment to join the other unbelievers who have taken the Mark.
Unbelievers Who Refuse the Mark and Convert at Jesus' Appearance in the Clouds- these are the Gentiles who have not taken the Mark and become believers at the 2nd Coming. They are the mortals who live in the nations surrounding Israel who have to come up to Jeruslem yearly on the Feast of the Tabernacles to worship the King or they do not get any rain.
The final question is, "Which group will you be in?"
Orates
[right][snapback]55434[/snapback][/right]
ORATES,
I am sure you did not mean anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture is a false Christian. I am born again, and I believe in a pre-trib. One reason I think so, besides scripture, is if I and others like me are not raptured before the anti makes his move, we will be pointing and screaming that he is the Anti-Christ. We would be wrong about the doctrine of pre trib rapture but almost all Christians hold to some kind of doctrine that is wrong. i.e. some believe in baptising infants, some do not. Both groups can't be right. Neither is going to Hell because of this. And no Christian will go to Hell if he believes in a pre-trib, mid trib or no rapture at all. The rapture will or not happen, and if it does, it will be either before, during or after the trib. Ones belief in which scenerio doesnt damn you. I believe in a pretrib rapture but if im wrong we will know and i will not take the mark and i'll be pointing at the Anti christ just like you. If i am raptured pre trib, if you are born again, you will be too, even if you think the rapture is due later.
in Christ,
duncan
QUOTE(duncdrewnoah @ Apr 21 2006, 07:35 AM)
ORATES,
I am sure you did not mean anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture is a false Christian. I am born again, and I believe in a pre-trib.
I am sure you did not mean anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture is a false Christian. I am born again, and I believe in a pre-trib.
I certainly am hoping that is not the implication, too. Also a pre-trib rapture believer, though I can see other possibilities in that regard. Certainly does not make me a false christian.
QUOTE(PraisingYeshua @ Apr 21 2006, 11:40 AM)
QUOTE(duncdrewnoah @ Apr 21 2006, 07:35 AM)
ORATES,
I am sure you did not mean anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture is a false Christian. I am born again, and I believe in a pre-trib.
I am sure you did not mean anyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture is a false Christian. I am born again, and I believe in a pre-trib.
I certainly am hoping that is not the implication, too. Also a pre-trib rapture believer, though I can see other possibilities in that regard. Certainly does not make me a false christian.
[right][snapback]55721[/snapback][/right]
Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2006 11:48 am Post subject: Article on Rapture
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I hope that you and everyone reading this will be strong enough to recant if the Pre-Trib Rapture doesn't happen. But unfortunately there will be a great falling away of professing Christians who will say in that day, that can't be the Antichrist- we are suppose to be raptured before he is revealed. The belief in rapture will be critical to those people who have made it a tenet of faith- and when it fails- they will say God will not allow his children to suffer, or God judges what's in our hearts-not some mark on our hand or forehead. They will be deceived into accepting the Antichrist and his system- to avoid being persecuted- like the ones who recanted to avoid being thrown to the lions. Many, many (virgins) Christians will be asleep when the midnight cry comes and they have no oil and have to go buy some from the Holy Spirit merchants. When they try to come into the Kingdom, Jesus will say to them- I never knew you. I don't think people realize how tied people are to Pre-Trib Rapture. If they find they have been duped they may throw out the baby with the bath water. Only those who endure to end will be saved and only overcomers enter into the Kingdom- If I thought that this wasn't such an important subject- I wouldn't have made such a big deal about it, but I worry that maybe half of professing Christians will fall away in the tribulation. If you believe that the timing of the Rapture is not important and are willing to be tortured for your faith- then I am not worried about you. But find out from the Christians you know if they believe God will allow them to experience tribulation and see how they answer- you may be surprised.
In case you did not see my report on the subject of the Rapture- here is a reprint...
They're Giving You a Bum-Rapture
What will cause a great "Falling Away" that was predicted by John to occur just before Jesus returns? Christians who are waiting for a Pre-Trib Rapture will become unglued when the Antichrist is revealed and they are still standing here on earth. Many will say in that day- this can't be the Mark of the Beast- we are suppose to be Raptured before this happens? Therefore, millions will be misled by false prophets/teachers who say the Rapture is still coming. The great escape will never happen for the majority. Most Christians will be persecuted to death by the Antichrist's edict that everyone be marked with a computer tatoo to be able to buy and sell.
The Rapture occurs at the Last Trump just before the "Day of Wrath" and Jesus' return to earth. The only believers left on Earth at that time will be the Jews who are hiding in the wilderness east of Israel and anyone else who mangaged to avoid taking the Mark of the Beast and have not been persecuted to death. The believing Jews in Israel (~3 1/2 years after the signing of the Peace Treaty) are the ones that Jesus warned to flee when they see their temple being desecrated by the Antichrist. (The temple will never be rebuilt as some people assume. Only the underground excavated Holy of Holies directly beneath the Dome of the Rock will be used by the Jews for secret sacrifices during the end times. That underground Sanctuary Fortress will be used by the Antichrist as his base-being the safest place on earth- Holy ground for both Jew and Arab alike.)
Most people have heard that there will be a Tribulation period lasting 7 years. But the Bible teaches that things will be pretty peaceful the first 3 1/2 years and then there will be great tribulation or persecution of Christians the last 3 1/2 years. Part of that persecution involves the killing of the "Two Witnesses" who are put on display for the world to see and suddenly come alive again and are Raptured up into the clouds (probably along with all the other believers left alive). The Wrath of God follows immediately with a great earthquake and then the final battle of Armageddon (believers will not see the Wrath). It concludes on the "Last Day" of this age when Jesus returns to earth with His Saints. The Rapture happens at the Last Trumpet, which will sound and the dead in Christ will rise first and then the surviving Jews in the wilderness and all surviving believers will be Raptured to join them and they will return with Jesus to fight the forces gathered in Israel. All people who have taken the Mark of the Beast and survive, including the forces at Armageddon, are killed by the brightness of Jesus' coming.
When Jesus appears in the clouds, the surviving Jews in Jerusalem will convert when they see their Messiah. They run into the valley which forms by the splitting of the Mt. of Olives from the touch of Jesus' foot. Many other unbelievers, both Jew and Gentile throughout the earth will convert when they see the Glory of the Lord appear. Everyone who survives up until this time will enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies. The Raptured and Resurrected Saints that came with Jesus will co-rule in the Kingdom with Jesus in their Glorified bodies. They will co-rule over the cities of Israel and surrounding lands for 1000 years. The mortals in the surrounding countries will have to come up to worship the King yearly on the Feast of Tabernacles or they will not get rain. The unbelievers, who manage to survive into the Millennium, do not get to stay. They are the ones Jesus mentions who appear at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on their wedding garments. They are separated in the Sheep and Goat Judgment and are cast out into outer darkness.
Don't let anyone mislead you! When you see the final peace treaty signed between Israel and her Arab neighbors, know that there will nearly 3 1/2 years of peace and safety before another war breaks out in the Mideast. The Antichrist will come and take over Israel and the undergound sanctuary to stop an all out Jihad against Israel. Then believing Jews will flee to the wilderness and the Antichrist will cause everyone to take a mark. Then there will be great tribulation for Christians, but many will fall away and accept the Antichrist's system. They will be lost forever. Do not be one of them- read the scriptures for yourselves. Do not believe the Rapture will save you- if you will endure to the end you will be Saved- God help you and all of us to be true till He returns.
Orates
Orates, in case you missed this...
"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
QUOTE(onetiggerroo @ Apr 23 2006, 11:16 AM)
Orates, in case you missed this...
"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
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"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
[right][snapback]56213[/snapback][/right]
I am in that group too.
Resting in that knowledge.
QUOTE(RosielovesJesus @ Apr 23 2006, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE(onetiggerroo @ Apr 23 2006, 11:16 AM)
Orates, in case you missed this...
"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
[right][snapback]56213[/snapback][/right]
"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
[right][snapback]56213[/snapback][/right]
I am in that group too.
Resting in that knowledge.
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Yup yup! And while I agree Orates that some may fall away, if there is not a pre-trib rapture, to assume that most will, is rather unfair. I believe in a pre-trib rapture...and if it happens, great! Awesome! If not, great! Awesome! My faith is far stronger in Him than that...I am not one who would curse Him for my misinterpretation, if that's what it came to. Regardless, it doesn't make me a false christian...your blanket statement was pretty unfair.
QUOTE(PraisingYeshua @ Apr 23 2006, 04:03 PM)
Yup yup! And while I agree Orates that some may fall away, if there is not a pre-trib rapture, to assume that most will, is rather unfair. I believe in a pre-trib rapture...and if it happens, great! Awesome! If not, great! Awesome! My faith is far stronger in Him than that...I am not one who would curse Him for my misinterpretation, if that's what it came to. Regardless, it doesn't make me a false christian...your blanket statement was pretty unfair.
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I feel the same way in this regard. Well Said.
I am glad that some of the readers of this web site are sure they will not fall away when tribulation comes and they find themselves still standing here, but unfortunately there are millions who will! This warning is for those who believe that God Will Not allow them to suffer because they will be raptured first. The parable of the 10 Virgins says 5 Virgins have the oil and 5 don't. If we endure to the end and overcome- we will be saved. If your belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture will not influence your choice of staying true to the end- and you are willing to recant your belief that the Rapture will save you from tribulation- and resist the Antichrist when he appears- then you are most likely one of the Virgins with oil- but like I said- if you ask other luke-warm Christians who are not watching because they don't expect to see the Treaty, Antichrist, Sanctuary, Mark, etc. they will say that God will not allow them to experience tribulation even though Paul said it was a given for true believers.
There will be many in that day who say Lord, Lord, we did these great works in your name and God will say to them- I never knew you.
Please do not consider the above warning a blanket condemnation- it is meant to wake up the Body to the danger of the coming Falling Away and the deception that comes with it. If you only knew how tragic this time will be, you would spread the warning and not condemn the messenger!
Orates
There will be many in that day who say Lord, Lord, we did these great works in your name and God will say to them- I never knew you.
Please do not consider the above warning a blanket condemnation- it is meant to wake up the Body to the danger of the coming Falling Away and the deception that comes with it. If you only knew how tragic this time will be, you would spread the warning and not condemn the messenger!
Orates
EDIT (I've edited my post as I actually have a couple of questions)
Orates I have 2 questions for you. I need to understand your answer to my first question though before I ask the second one.
From your first post you state that "True Christians" are those that go through the tribulation and are resurrected at the "last trump". My understanding is that you are inferring the "last trump" to the be the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation.
Now my question is. What is the timing of this Trumpet? Is it after or before the midway point of the tribulation?
Orates I have 2 questions for you. I need to understand your answer to my first question though before I ask the second one.
From your first post you state that "True Christians" are those that go through the tribulation and are resurrected at the "last trump". My understanding is that you are inferring the "last trump" to the be the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation.
Now my question is. What is the timing of this Trumpet? Is it after or before the midway point of the tribulation?
Sorry for the confusion. I thought it was self-evident who in the list will be in the Millennium. But to make it plain, there will be the Messiah the King, the Resurrected/Raptured Saints (including the 144,000 and the Two Witnesses), and the Jews and Gentiles who converted at Jesus' coming. If I have left anyone out please let me know...
Orates
Orates
QUOTE(Frek @ Apr 25 2006, 12:05 PM)
EDIT (I've edited my post as I actually have a couple of questions)
Orates I have 2 questions for you. I need to understand your answer to my first question though before I ask the second one.
From your first post you state that "True Christians" are those that go through the tribulation and are resurrected at the "last trump". My understanding is that you are inferring the "last trump" to the be the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation.
Now my question is. What is the timing of this Trumpet? Is it after or before the midway point of the tribulation?
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Orates I have 2 questions for you. I need to understand your answer to my first question though before I ask the second one.
From your first post you state that "True Christians" are those that go through the tribulation and are resurrected at the "last trump". My understanding is that you are inferring the "last trump" to the be the 7th Trumpet in the book of Revelation.
Now my question is. What is the timing of this Trumpet? Is it after or before the midway point of the tribulation?
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The Last or 7th Trump is the Wrath of God on the Last Day. Many commentators have said that this is another trump at another time, but they have to do alot of explaining to make it that way. Last is Last and Trump is Trump. It is the simple plain language of the scriptures. I have found that anyone not wishing to believe that the Rapture happens at the end of the 7 years can manipulate scripture to make it seem otherwise. I will not continue in that argument. All that I am asking is that you are prepared to recant your belief if and when you see the final treaty being signed, the antichrist revealed, the sanctuary occupied, and the mark instituted. If you are willing to wait and see what happens, then either you or I will be proven right or wrong- case closed. Please do not continue beating this issue to death- have patience- the answer will become known at that time.
Orates
QUOTE(Orates @ Apr 25 2006, 09:22 AM)
Please do not consider the above warning a blanket condemnation- it is meant to wake up the Body to the danger of the coming Falling Away and the deception that comes with it. If you only knew how tragic this time will be, you would spread the warning and not condemn the messenger!
I completely understand what you are saying Orates, and I am most certainly not condemning the messenger...neither do I think others were. I would suggest, however, that the issue taken was with those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture, being labelled as false christians. Given statistics, there will be some among that group who are indeed false christians, and simply buying into an idea, because it sounds good. However, for those who truly believe there is going to be a pre-trib rapture, how exactly does that make them false christians? At best, I could see how it might possibly make them christians being misled, presuming there truly is no pre-trib rapture. Your initial statement implies that all those who believe in a pre-trib rapture, and call themselves christains, are false. And that, is what I take issue with.
Ideally, it would be wonderful for a pre-trib rapture, but the truth remains to be seen.
Since I missed the ban wagon, (no pun intended 
) I am also pre-trib.... 
Orates I find your work misleading. Not only that I find that instead of you talking with us your talking down to us. This is a big gianganto red flag that you think that your better than us ole' pre-tribe people....
You see God is love and your words are legalistic and out of the bounds of love. But of course you will tell me that your here to save us all from our own thoughts and beliefs because in your book were false christians.....
You say, "I hope you can face reality when I am still standing on earth and the tribulation begins." HUMMM! In regards to this, that is why it calls for each one of us CHRISTIANS to work out OUR OWN relationship with Christ.....IF I have to stand before God and answer as to why I believed in a pre-trib, I will say, Father, because I love you with all my heart and soul. I did not lose the first love, which is your Son, Jesus Christ. I wanted to go in the first fruit harvest you spoke about in the Old Testament in the bible, when they offered the first shoots of the wheat harvest as a first fruit offering, ( picture of the pre-trib by the way) I wanted to be part of the Bride of Christ.....If that makes me a false christian in your book I want to know the name of the book your reading because it sure is not the same as mine....
) I am also pre-trib.... Orates I find your work misleading. Not only that I find that instead of you talking with us your talking down to us. This is a big gianganto red flag that you think that your better than us ole' pre-tribe people....
You see God is love and your words are legalistic and out of the bounds of love. But of course you will tell me that your here to save us all from our own thoughts and beliefs because in your book were false christians.....
You say, "I hope you can face reality when I am still standing on earth and the tribulation begins." HUMMM! In regards to this, that is why it calls for each one of us CHRISTIANS to work out OUR OWN relationship with Christ.....IF I have to stand before God and answer as to why I believed in a pre-trib, I will say, Father, because I love you with all my heart and soul. I did not lose the first love, which is your Son, Jesus Christ. I wanted to go in the first fruit harvest you spoke about in the Old Testament in the bible, when they offered the first shoots of the wheat harvest as a first fruit offering, ( picture of the pre-trib by the way) I wanted to be part of the Bride of Christ.....If that makes me a false christian in your book I want to know the name of the book your reading because it sure is not the same as mine....
QUOTE(Pamela @ Apr 25 2006, 06:52 PM)
Since I missed the ban wagon, (no pun intended ) I am also pre-trib....
Orates I find your work misleading. Not only that I find that instead of you talking with us your talking down to us. This is a big gianganto red flag that you think that your better than us ole' pre-tribe people....
You see God is love and your words are legalistic and out of the bounds of love. But of course you will tell me that your here to save us all from our own thoughts and beliefs because in your book were false christians.....
You say, "I hope you can face reality when I am still standing on earth and the tribulation begins." HUMMM! In regards to this, that is why it calls for each one of us CHRISTIANS to work out OUR OWN relationship with Christ.....IF I have to stand before God and answer as to why I believed in a pre-trib, I will say, Father, because I love you with all my heart and soul. I did not lose the first love, which is your Son, Jesus Christ. I wanted to go in the first fruit harvest you spoke about in the Old Testament in the bible, when they offered the first shoots of the wheat harvest as a first fruit offering, ( picture of the pre-trib by the way) I wanted to be part of the Bride of Christ.....If that makes me a false christian in your book I want to know the name of the book your reading because it sure is not the same as mine....
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) I am also pre-trib.... Orates I find your work misleading. Not only that I find that instead of you talking with us your talking down to us. This is a big gianganto red flag that you think that your better than us ole' pre-tribe people....
You see God is love and your words are legalistic and out of the bounds of love. But of course you will tell me that your here to save us all from our own thoughts and beliefs because in your book were false christians.....
You say, "I hope you can face reality when I am still standing on earth and the tribulation begins." HUMMM! In regards to this, that is why it calls for each one of us CHRISTIANS to work out OUR OWN relationship with Christ.....IF I have to stand before God and answer as to why I believed in a pre-trib, I will say, Father, because I love you with all my heart and soul. I did not lose the first love, which is your Son, Jesus Christ. I wanted to go in the first fruit harvest you spoke about in the Old Testament in the bible, when they offered the first shoots of the wheat harvest as a first fruit offering, ( picture of the pre-trib by the way) I wanted to be part of the Bride of Christ.....If that makes me a false christian in your book I want to know the name of the book your reading because it sure is not the same as mine....
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Extremely well said Pamela...and, I must say, you are much more diplomatic than I!
He is surely teaching me patience, because I tend to not be diplomatic at all, instead putting it out there as I believe, feel, etc. Since I don't care to be banned from this site, I have been seriously holding my tongue!
I see you answered my first question Orates.
I've decided that if I were to try and debate this with you that it would most likely just lead to a pointless discussion that profits nobody.
I will simply leave you with something to think about. God's word tells us that you will know and recoginize "True Christians" by their fruit.
I've decided that if I were to try and debate this with you that it would most likely just lead to a pointless discussion that profits nobody.
I will simply leave you with something to think about. God's word tells us that you will know and recoginize "True Christians" by their fruit.
QUOTE(Frek @ Apr 26 2006, 08:20 AM)
I see you answered my first question Orates.
I've decided that if I were to try and debate this with you that it would most likely just lead to a pointless discussion that profits nobody.
I will simply leave you with something to think about. God's word tells us that you will know and recoginize "True Christians" by their fruit.
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I've decided that if I were to try and debate this with you that it would most likely just lead to a pointless discussion that profits nobody.
I will simply leave you with something to think about. God's word tells us that you will know and recoginize "True Christians" by their fruit.
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What I am really trying to say is that both sides of the Rapture Issue have their points- for some reason a final proof text is lacking- probably to allow people to not believe in one or the other if they want to. People who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture are only false after the Antichrist is revealed and requires the world to worship him. At that time Christians will have to either:
#1 Recant their belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture and resist the Antichrist to the point of persecution and death, or
#2 Continue to hold to their belief and say that the Antichrist and the Mark could not possibly be the ones prophesied because they are still here.
Recanting a belief like the Pre-Trib rRpture will be very hard- in fact- there maybe 50% of professing Christians who will fall away according to the 10 Virgins Parable.
Post-trib or Pre-wrath adherants will never have to recant and cannot fall into this trap.
But, even though I see more evidence for a later Rapture, it will not be proven for sure until after the 7 year treaty is signed with Israel and the Antichrist is revealed.
If you are prepared to do #1, then I am not worried about you.
If you stick to #2- you have to fall away because you believe you will never see the treaty or the Antichrist even if they are there.
I feel very strong about this issue and if you could see the potential danger you would agree. I have heard too many Christians say they are 100% sure that the Pre-Trib Rapture is true.
This issue may not be critical now, but when the time comes, I don't want to have to spend my time running around trying to convince people that- Hey this is the treaty, or here comes the Antichrist- I will be busy being persecuted for my faith and overcoming. (I guess the persecution has started a little hasn't it?)
Orates
QUOTE(Orates @ Apr 27 2006, 04:28 PM)
People who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture are only false after the Antichrist is revealed and requires the world to worship him.
Again, I do not think that makes them false christians. I do believe it would make them mislead. To imply their belief in Him is false, simply because they believed in a pre-trib rapture that didn't occur, is not a judgement for you to make. And yes, I do agree that there is great potential for many, many people to fall away, if there is no pre-trib rapture...and that is beyond sad. However, it still only makes them misled...not false christians.
QUOTE
#1 Recant their belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture and resist the Antichrist to the point of persecution and death
Oddly enough, I used to be so petrified of persecution, being killed for my faith, etc. Knowing now, what I was unaware of before, would make me embrace persecution and death, if it comes to that.
The definition of falseness is critical here in the discussion of the falling away. One person says they believe and call themselves a Christian, but when the persecution comes- they fall away. They do not renounce their faith- the falling away happens when they go along with the Antichrist's system for whatever reason- to avoid persecution, because they think the Rapture is still coming, or whatever. They will still say they believe and are Christians- that is the tragic part. They are the virgins who knock on the door and say let us in- and Jesus refuses to open it for them. They are the ones who cry out Lord, Lord, we did great things in your name, but Jesus will say I never knew you. On that day there will be weaping and gnashing of teeth. They are the ones who will be deceived and believe the lie of the Antichrist.
But the Christian who is willing to endure to the end (like yourself)- they will go into the Kingdom with Jesus because they were overcomers. If all Christians, like you, who are watching and keeping awake- when the bridegroom comes, they will be found with oil and will follow Him to Glory. That is why I am writing these posts- not to accuse, but to prepare.
Orates
But the Christian who is willing to endure to the end (like yourself)- they will go into the Kingdom with Jesus because they were overcomers. If all Christians, like you, who are watching and keeping awake- when the bridegroom comes, they will be found with oil and will follow Him to Glory. That is why I am writing these posts- not to accuse, but to prepare.
Orates
QUOTE(Orates @ May 1 2006, 09:57 AM)
The definition of falseness is critical here in the discussion of the falling away. One person says they believe and call themselves a Christian, but when the persecution comes- they fall away. They do not renounce their faith- the falling away happens when they go along with the Antichrist's system for whatever reason- to avoid persecution, because they think the Rapture is still coming, or whatever. They will still say they believe and are Christians- that is the tragic part. They are the virgins who knock on the door and say let us in- and Jesus refuses to open it for them. They are the ones who cry out Lord, Lord, we did great things in your name, but Jesus will say I never knew you. On that day there will be weaping and gnashing of teeth. They are the ones who will be deceived and believe the lie of the Antichrist.
But the Christian who is willing to endure to the end (like yourself)- they will go into the Kingdom with Jesus because they were overcomers. If all Christians, like you, who are watching and keeping awake- when the bridegroom comes, they will be found with oil and will follow Him to Glory. That is why I am writing these posts- not to accuse, but to prepare.
Orates
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But the Christian who is willing to endure to the end (like yourself)- they will go into the Kingdom with Jesus because they were overcomers. If all Christians, like you, who are watching and keeping awake- when the bridegroom comes, they will be found with oil and will follow Him to Glory. That is why I am writing these posts- not to accuse, but to prepare.
Orates
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Okay Orates only 5 of those 10 virgins knocked on the door requesting to be let in. What about the first five who were taken in to the wedding supper?
Those were the ones raptured, the Bride of Christ, the ones taken like a theif in the night. As the thief only takes the best things out of the house.
Those 5 that remained are the general church that were not prepared, but they are not false Christians, they just got caught sleeping....
The problem is that the 5 Virgins who do have the oil (Holy Spirit) and follow the bridegroom are the ones that are both persecuted to death for their faith or are Raptured at the Last Trump just before the Day of Wrath to meet the Bridegroom in the air (the Wedding doesn't actually take place until the Millennium). The 5 virgins who were without oil are told to go and buy some (they have to take the Mark to do so), but when they knock on the door at the end- they can't come in. Obviously the oil they bought from the oil merchants was no good. The thief in the night analogy applies to the end times events (not the Rapture) which takes the world by surprise, but not Christians, because if the servant knew the house was going to be broken into- they would have been alert and watched!
I hope this helps,
Orates
I hope this helps,
Orates
QUOTE(Orates @ May 3 2006, 05:17 PM)
The problem is that the 5 Virgins who do have the oil (Holy Spirit) and follow the bridegroom are the ones that are both persecuted to death for their faith or are Raptured at the Last Trump just before the Day of Wrath to meet the Bridegroom in the air (the Wedding doesn't actually take place until the Millennium). The 5 virgins who were without oil are told to go and buy some (they have to take the Mark to do so), but when they knock on the door at the end- they can't come in. Obviously the oil they bought from the oil merchants was no good. The thief in the night analogy applies to the end times events (not the Rapture) which takes the world by surprise, but not Christians, because if the servant knew the house was going to be broken into- they would have been alert and watched!
I hope this helps,
Orates
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I hope this helps,
Orates
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ORATES, a problem with your theory on the end times event taken the world by surprise; once tribulation starts, even most atheist Know that the bible predicts a 7 yr trib period. Once the treaty is confirmed and events start to unfold, anybody could pick up the bible and read Revelation to find out what happens next...no surprises...the only way the thief in the night scenerio works is an unknown date of rapture...if you believe in a mid trib rapture and you are right, you could mark your calander once trib starts. Same thing for those that believe in a post trib rapture ....
The Great Multitude
This group is seen by John in addition to the 24 elders and who are already in heaven before and around the throne of God just prior to the time of His judgment of an unbelieving world (70th week). [Revelation 4:4, 7:2-3, 7:9, 8:6]
One should notice that the 24 elders are saved human beings, not angels. The elders exclaim that they have been saved and made kings and priests from every kindred, tongue, and nation. This must also include the great multitude since 24 elders alone would not be representative of the greater numbers indicated. [Revelation 5:9-10, 7:9-17]
The great multitude is a very large group, one that no man can number (count), and must include both "the dead in Christ" and believers who will be "living" just prior to the 70th week. The great multitude is a very large group, one that no man can number (count), and must include both "the dead in Christ" and believers who will be "living" just prior to the 70th week.
It cannot be said that the majority of this group "the dead in Christ" will "go into" (experience) and "come out” of great tribulation. These cannot possibly experience the tribulation of the 70th week. This is because they will have all died physically before it begins. [Revelation 7:14]
Coming "out of" can be translated, or understood to mean, that they are "kept out of, away from, or not included in", and this is the correct meaning. If one is "out" of something one is not "in" it and does not experience it. Reference the Blue Letter Bible link concordance for the Greek "ek" meanings.
The Lord will command His people (both Jew and Gentile believers) to "come out" of Mystery Babylon's "great city" (those in all of her cities in the world will be included) just before the "great city" is destroyed at the beginning of the tribulation period. [Revelation 18:4, 17:18, 18:1-24]
They do not leave on their own and go to some other remote places on the earth. The Lord will remove them from the earth and take them to heaven just before the destruction of the "great city" takes place. This is the great multitude, the Church. [Revelation 18:4, 7:9-17]
The Lord will also seal 144,000 Israelites for service on earth during the 70th week. These mortal apostles will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to an unbelieving world under judgment and will be protected from all of the tribulation events. [Revelation 7:2-8, 14:1-5, 14:6-7]
Jesus also speaks to a believing remnant of Israel who will be living in Israel when the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount (middle of the 70th week). These Israelites will become believers after the great multitude has gone to heaven and they will flee into the wilderness east of Israel to be protected by the Lord from Satan and his christ who is Abaddon (antichrist). [Matthew 24:15-21] [Revelation 12:14-17]
Jesus gives many warnings about His coming as a "thief" in the New Testament. The one in Revelation is a "reminder" to the reader of this truth. He will come without warning at a time that no one can predict. Those who think or profess that they are believers and are not, will not be kept from the tribulation period. [Revelation 3:16, 16:15]
Another significant factor is to notice many references to those who are in heaven....who live there and are observing the tribulation in process on the earth. These are the 24 elders and the great multitude. [Revelation 4:4, 4:10, 5:9-10, 7:9-17, 11:1, 11:15-17, 12:10-12, 13:6, 14:2-3, 15:8, 18:20, 19:1-9]
This group is seen by John in addition to the 24 elders and who are already in heaven before and around the throne of God just prior to the time of His judgment of an unbelieving world (70th week). [Revelation 4:4, 7:2-3, 7:9, 8:6]
One should notice that the 24 elders are saved human beings, not angels. The elders exclaim that they have been saved and made kings and priests from every kindred, tongue, and nation. This must also include the great multitude since 24 elders alone would not be representative of the greater numbers indicated. [Revelation 5:9-10, 7:9-17]
The great multitude is a very large group, one that no man can number (count), and must include both "the dead in Christ" and believers who will be "living" just prior to the 70th week. The great multitude is a very large group, one that no man can number (count), and must include both "the dead in Christ" and believers who will be "living" just prior to the 70th week.
It cannot be said that the majority of this group "the dead in Christ" will "go into" (experience) and "come out” of great tribulation. These cannot possibly experience the tribulation of the 70th week. This is because they will have all died physically before it begins. [Revelation 7:14]
Coming "out of" can be translated, or understood to mean, that they are "kept out of, away from, or not included in", and this is the correct meaning. If one is "out" of something one is not "in" it and does not experience it. Reference the Blue Letter Bible link concordance for the Greek "ek" meanings.
The Lord will command His people (both Jew and Gentile believers) to "come out" of Mystery Babylon's "great city" (those in all of her cities in the world will be included) just before the "great city" is destroyed at the beginning of the tribulation period. [Revelation 18:4, 17:18, 18:1-24]
They do not leave on their own and go to some other remote places on the earth. The Lord will remove them from the earth and take them to heaven just before the destruction of the "great city" takes place. This is the great multitude, the Church. [Revelation 18:4, 7:9-17]
The Lord will also seal 144,000 Israelites for service on earth during the 70th week. These mortal apostles will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to an unbelieving world under judgment and will be protected from all of the tribulation events. [Revelation 7:2-8, 14:1-5, 14:6-7]
Jesus also speaks to a believing remnant of Israel who will be living in Israel when the abomination of desolation is set up on the temple mount (middle of the 70th week). These Israelites will become believers after the great multitude has gone to heaven and they will flee into the wilderness east of Israel to be protected by the Lord from Satan and his christ who is Abaddon (antichrist). [Matthew 24:15-21] [Revelation 12:14-17]
Jesus gives many warnings about His coming as a "thief" in the New Testament. The one in Revelation is a "reminder" to the reader of this truth. He will come without warning at a time that no one can predict. Those who think or profess that they are believers and are not, will not be kept from the tribulation period. [Revelation 3:16, 16:15]
Another significant factor is to notice many references to those who are in heaven....who live there and are observing the tribulation in process on the earth. These are the 24 elders and the great multitude. [Revelation 4:4, 4:10, 5:9-10, 7:9-17, 11:1, 11:15-17, 12:10-12, 13:6, 14:2-3, 15:8, 18:20, 19:1-9]
Orates
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[/quote]
ORATES, a problem with your theory on the end times event taken the world by surprise; once tribulation starts, even most atheist Know that the bible predicts a 7 yr trib period. Once the treaty is confirmed and events start to unfold, anybody could pick up the bible and read Revelation to find out what happens next...no surprises...the only way the thief in the night scenerio works is an unknown date of rapture...if you believe in a mid trib rapture and you are right, you could mark your calander once trib starts. Same thing for those that believe in a post trib rapture ....
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End times events come as a thief in the night to the unbelieving world- not to Christians. "But of the times and season, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3. for when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4. BUT ye brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 6. Ye are the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober!"
Daniel's 70th week is a 7 year period, but nowhere in the Bible does it mention that that there is 7 years of Tribulation- In fact the first 3 1/2 years are peaceful for the whole world. The treaty brings peace to the Mid East, the Antichrist destroys many by peace, and the world is crying peace peace!
The Great Tribulation- is the persecution of Christians that starts at Mid-Week after the Anitchrist is revealed with his proclamation that everyone take his mark. The battle of Armageddon occurs at the end of the 7 years and the Day of Wrath happens on the last day. Any believing survivors are Raptured just before the last day and do not see the Wrath.
The scenario is included here again below for your reference.
The key to this whole debate comes to this: If the final treaty is signed and you still are here then the Pre-Trib theory is incorrect. If the Antichrist takes over the Sanctuary Fortress and requires you to take the Mark- then the Mid-Trib theory is wrong. If you hear the Last Trump and are still standing here then you are in trouble!
A Grand Unified Prophecy
When the Treaty is Signed It Will Be T-Minus Seven Years to the End of the Age and Counting
T-Minus 7 Years: Israel and Arabs sign a seven year interim peace treaty ushering in almost 3 ½ years of peace in the Middle East.
T-Minus 3 ½ Years: Approx. 3 ½ years after the signing of the Treaty, an Arab nation (possibly Syria, Iraq or Iran) attacks Israel. US and Coalition forces head to the Middle East to intervene. This time the Israelis retaliate leading to an all out Jihad against them by the Arabs. The US and Coalition forces divert to Israel to stop the war. The head of the US and Coalition forces (seen by some Jews as their Messiah, but true Christians recognize him as the Antichrist) sets up his command center in the safest place in the Middle East- the secret chamber or Holy of Holies of the original Jewish Temple directly beneath the Arab Dome of the Rock. The Antichrist places a computer/ television (the Image of the Beast or the Abomination of Desolation) on the altar effectively ending the secret religious animal sacrifices of the Jewish priesthood. Some Jews, believing and understanding the prophecy of all this from the Book of Daniel, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel. The Antichrist sends troops to intercept them, but an earthquake swallows them up. The Antichrist takes his anger out over this interference on believing Christians worldwide by initiating a New Economic Order arising out of the chaos of the war. He requires everyone in his domain to take an invisible UPC Mark to be able to buy and sell. Those true Christians who refuse the Mark are rounded up as starving homeless insane vagrants, put in camps, and eventually beheaded as a final solution. False Christians, who for security and out of misguided loyalty to the Antichrist’s New World Order, accept his UPC Mark in their right hands or foreheads. This is the unforgivable sin. False Christians who fall away and take the Mark will live for a few years- until they are eventually wiped out in “God’s Wrath” on the last day of this Age.
T-Minus 3 ½ Years to Last Day: Sometime after all this, the Russian Confederacy, allied with Arabs, invade Israel all the way to Egypt ousting the Antichrist from the Middle East. The Antichrist’s forces have to regroup in Europe to the north, while the Chinese in the east march across Asia with a 200 million-man army. These mighty armies all meet for the great battle of Armageddon in northern Israel.
T-Minus Last Day: Christian Martyrs from all ages (including those recently persecuted by the Antichrist) come to life in the First Resurrection to meet Jesus in the air. The surviving Jews, hiding in the wilderness, are caught up into the clouds to meet them in what is called the “Rapture”. These two groups return to earth with Jesus on white horses to destroy the forces gathered at the battle of Armageddon. The surviving Jews in Jerusalem, who accept Jesus as their Messiah at His appearance, flee to seek refuge in a valley formed when the Mount of Olives in Israel splits in two. On this last day of our age called the “Day of God’s Wrath”, all the cities of the world fall and all the rest of the people of the world, who took the Mark, die.
T-Plus 1 to 1000 Years: Satan is captured and bound for 1000 years. Resurrected Christians and Raptured Jews in Glorified bodies reign with Christ for 1000 years in a renewed Holy Land. Jesus sets up His throne in Jerusalem and the surviving Jews, who have entered the Millennial Kingdom in their physical bodies, finally occupy their promised land in peace and harmony under the iron rod rule of Jesus and His Saints
Post Millennium: After the Millennium, the rest of the dead come to life in the Second Resurrection. Satan, released from his prison in the Bottomless Pit, gathers the hordes of resurrected lost throughout the earth to march against Jesus and the Millennial inhabitants around Jerusalem. This time fire comes down out of Heaven and destroys them all before they reach their objective.
Last Judgment: At the Last Judgment Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire. All the lost who have ever lived are brought before the Great White Judgment Seat of God and judged according to what is written in the Books (possibly those of the Bible). They are cast, weeping and gnashing their teeth over their fate, into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.
Eternity: God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth and a Celestial city called New Jerusalem, where the Saved live in God’s presence for eternity.
Orates
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ORATES, a problem with your theory on the end times event taken the world by surprise; once tribulation starts, even most atheist Know that the bible predicts a 7 yr trib period. Once the treaty is confirmed and events start to unfold, anybody could pick up the bible and read Revelation to find out what happens next...no surprises...the only way the thief in the night scenerio works is an unknown date of rapture...if you believe in a mid trib rapture and you are right, you could mark your calander once trib starts. Same thing for those that believe in a post trib rapture ....
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End times events come as a thief in the night to the unbelieving world- not to Christians. "But of the times and season, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3. for when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4. BUT ye brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 6. Ye are the children of light, and the children of the day; we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 6. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober!"
Daniel's 70th week is a 7 year period, but nowhere in the Bible does it mention that that there is 7 years of Tribulation- In fact the first 3 1/2 years are peaceful for the whole world. The treaty brings peace to the Mid East, the Antichrist destroys many by peace, and the world is crying peace peace!
The Great Tribulation- is the persecution of Christians that starts at Mid-Week after the Anitchrist is revealed with his proclamation that everyone take his mark. The battle of Armageddon occurs at the end of the 7 years and the Day of Wrath happens on the last day. Any believing survivors are Raptured just before the last day and do not see the Wrath.
The scenario is included here again below for your reference.
The key to this whole debate comes to this: If the final treaty is signed and you still are here then the Pre-Trib theory is incorrect. If the Antichrist takes over the Sanctuary Fortress and requires you to take the Mark- then the Mid-Trib theory is wrong. If you hear the Last Trump and are still standing here then you are in trouble!
A Grand Unified Prophecy
When the Treaty is Signed It Will Be T-Minus Seven Years to the End of the Age and Counting
T-Minus 7 Years: Israel and Arabs sign a seven year interim peace treaty ushering in almost 3 ½ years of peace in the Middle East.
T-Minus 3 ½ Years: Approx. 3 ½ years after the signing of the Treaty, an Arab nation (possibly Syria, Iraq or Iran) attacks Israel. US and Coalition forces head to the Middle East to intervene. This time the Israelis retaliate leading to an all out Jihad against them by the Arabs. The US and Coalition forces divert to Israel to stop the war. The head of the US and Coalition forces (seen by some Jews as their Messiah, but true Christians recognize him as the Antichrist) sets up his command center in the safest place in the Middle East- the secret chamber or Holy of Holies of the original Jewish Temple directly beneath the Arab Dome of the Rock. The Antichrist places a computer/ television (the Image of the Beast or the Abomination of Desolation) on the altar effectively ending the secret religious animal sacrifices of the Jewish priesthood. Some Jews, believing and understanding the prophecy of all this from the Book of Daniel, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel. The Antichrist sends troops to intercept them, but an earthquake swallows them up. The Antichrist takes his anger out over this interference on believing Christians worldwide by initiating a New Economic Order arising out of the chaos of the war. He requires everyone in his domain to take an invisible UPC Mark to be able to buy and sell. Those true Christians who refuse the Mark are rounded up as starving homeless insane vagrants, put in camps, and eventually beheaded as a final solution. False Christians, who for security and out of misguided loyalty to the Antichrist’s New World Order, accept his UPC Mark in their right hands or foreheads. This is the unforgivable sin. False Christians who fall away and take the Mark will live for a few years- until they are eventually wiped out in “God’s Wrath” on the last day of this Age.
T-Minus 3 ½ Years to Last Day: Sometime after all this, the Russian Confederacy, allied with Arabs, invade Israel all the way to Egypt ousting the Antichrist from the Middle East. The Antichrist’s forces have to regroup in Europe to the north, while the Chinese in the east march across Asia with a 200 million-man army. These mighty armies all meet for the great battle of Armageddon in northern Israel.
T-Minus Last Day: Christian Martyrs from all ages (including those recently persecuted by the Antichrist) come to life in the First Resurrection to meet Jesus in the air. The surviving Jews, hiding in the wilderness, are caught up into the clouds to meet them in what is called the “Rapture”. These two groups return to earth with Jesus on white horses to destroy the forces gathered at the battle of Armageddon. The surviving Jews in Jerusalem, who accept Jesus as their Messiah at His appearance, flee to seek refuge in a valley formed when the Mount of Olives in Israel splits in two. On this last day of our age called the “Day of God’s Wrath”, all the cities of the world fall and all the rest of the people of the world, who took the Mark, die.
T-Plus 1 to 1000 Years: Satan is captured and bound for 1000 years. Resurrected Christians and Raptured Jews in Glorified bodies reign with Christ for 1000 years in a renewed Holy Land. Jesus sets up His throne in Jerusalem and the surviving Jews, who have entered the Millennial Kingdom in their physical bodies, finally occupy their promised land in peace and harmony under the iron rod rule of Jesus and His Saints
Post Millennium: After the Millennium, the rest of the dead come to life in the Second Resurrection. Satan, released from his prison in the Bottomless Pit, gathers the hordes of resurrected lost throughout the earth to march against Jesus and the Millennial inhabitants around Jerusalem. This time fire comes down out of Heaven and destroys them all before they reach their objective.
Last Judgment: At the Last Judgment Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire. All the lost who have ever lived are brought before the Great White Judgment Seat of God and judged according to what is written in the Books (possibly those of the Bible). They are cast, weeping and gnashing their teeth over their fate, into the Lake of Fire, which is the second death.
Eternity: God creates a New Heaven and a New Earth and a Celestial city called New Jerusalem, where the Saved live in God’s presence for eternity.
Orates
The 70th Week
Does the 70th week decreed for Israel contain tribulation events in the first and second half ? Does the second half extend beyond 1,260 days ? Careful reading of Scriptures related to this time period will reveal an affirmative answer to both of these questions. It is important for the student of Bible prophecy to grasp the timing of events belonging to the Lord's intervention at the end of this present age. Israel will be invaded, conquered, and ruled by the little horn, king of fierce countenance, as part of his expansion to form his 7th dominion in the Middle East. [Daniel 7:8, 8:23-25, 11:36] [Revelation 13, 17] [Zechariah 14:1-5]
The "great city" of Mystery Babylon will be destroyed by the 10 other horns (Middle Eastern kings) at the onset of the beginning of the 70th week. They will do this before they gain a consolidated dominion with the little horn. The first 4 trumpet judgments describe this destruction. [Revelation 8:7-12, 17:12-18]
There is another "great city" in Revelation which is Jerusalem. These two great cities are different. The one of Mystery Babylon is the "great city" of the nations and the other is the capital of national Israel. These are the only "great" cities recorded in Revelation's visions. All of the other cities in the world are the rest of the cities of the Gentiles (nations). [Revelation 11:8, 17:18]
God will revisit the land area of Mystery Babylon's "great city" at the end of the tribulation period and break it into three parts with a great worldwide earthquake which will also destroy all of the other cities in the world. [Revelation 16:18-19]
The little horn will confirm a covenant (it will only last for 7 years) on the day of the "great city's" destruction with the 10 kings and many followers. He will do this to support his next objectives which will be to conquer the Middle East including the nation of Israel, and then dominate the world. [Daniel 9:27]
On that same day the 5th and 6th trumpets will sound and both are related to Satan's release of Abaddon, the other abyss angels, and the release of the angels bound at the Euphrates River respectively. These satanic forces will be strategically employed by Satan to advance his objectives. [Revelation 9:1-11, 9:13-19]
Satan is the dragon in Revelation who gives his power and authority to the first beast (Abaddon). Abaddon will influence and ultimately incarnate (become) the little horn (the 8th king) and rule the Middle East with the 10 other horns. [Revelation 12:3, 13:1-4, 17:8-11]
The little horn is the human king (man of lawlessness) who will be seen by humans, but he will be the instrument of Satan and his christ, Abaddon, king of the abyss. [Second Thessalonians 2:3-12] He will encounter opposition from Egypt (king of the south), others in the Middle East, and nations farther east and north (tidings out of the east and north) of the Middle East. [Daniel 11:40-44]
He will succeed in defeating all opposition, including replacement of 3 of the 10 other kings, and will conquer Israel by the end of the first 3 1/2 years (1,260 days) of the 70th week. The abomination of desolation will be set up on the temple mount at the end of the first half of the 70th week. [Daniel 7:8, 12:7-11] He will then rule the Middle East and the Land of Israel for 42 months (1,260 days) until his dominion is destroyed by God's intervention (7th trumpet, 7 vial judgments) which will occur in the next 30 day period immediately following the end of his 42 month rule. [Revelation 11:2, 13:5, 16:1-14]
This second half (1,260 days) of the 70th week is also the same time frame for the protection of the Israelite remnant who flee into the wilderness east of Israel, and the operation of God's two witnesses (prophets). [Revelation 11:3, 12:6, 12:14] The little horn's dominion will be destroyed by God within the next additional 30 days for a total of 1,290 days comprising the last half of the tribulation period.
The Lord will appear visibly to the world immediately after those days and will gather and separate believers of the elect (national Israel) and from the Gentile nations to enter His earthly 1,000 year Kingdom. This will take 45 additional days for a total of 1,335 days. [Matthew 24:29-31, 25:31-46] [Daniel 12:12] Careful study of Daniel's visions will verify that the time of the end is structured according to these time frames. The reader needs to consider chapters 10:5, 10:14, 11:36-45, and 12:1-12 to get the complete picture.
There are two questions asked in chapter 12. One of the heavenly beings, possibly the Lord himself (compare Daniel 10:5-6 and Revelation 1:13-16), addresses the first question in 12:6 and the answer is given in 12:7. Then Daniel asks the second question in 12:8. Two different answers are given. The answer to the first question in 12:7 describes the first half of the 70th week (1,260 days...a time ,times, and 1/2 time), and the answer to the second question in 12:11 describes the second half of the 70th week (1,290 days).
It is important to note that there is a link in 12:7 back to chapter 11:36-45. The link is "he" (the little horn), and the verses in chapter 11:36-45 specifically describe his conquering of the Middle East and Israel. Israel will be conquered by the end of the "time, times, and 1/2 time". "All of these things shall be finished" refers to Daniel 11:36-45....the details leading up to the little horn's 42 month rule. The end of verse 45 points to the destruction of the little horn's dominion after his 42 month rule during the additional 30 days following the second half of the 70th week.
When Daniel asks the second question in 12:8 he wants to know what the outcome will be resulting from Israel's conquering by the little horn. The answer in verse 12:11 describes the 1,290 day period beginning from when the abomination of desolation is set up. This will be at the beginning of the little horn's rule (mid-point of the 70th week) which will last for 42 months and then his dominion will be destroyed in the next 30 days. This total period will be for 1,290 days and describes the last half of the tribulation period (last half of the 70th week plus 30 additional days).
The same time frame can be found in Daniel 8:13-14 and 8:23-26. The destruction of the sanctuary (place of worship like the great synagog at the base of the western wall of the temple mount) will occur 110 days after the abomination of desolation is set up. The 2,300 mornings and evenings should be interpreted as 1,150 days. At the end of the 1,150 days (same time as the end of the 1,260 days of the last half of the 70th week) the sanctuary (place of worship) and the temple mount will be restored to Israel. The little horn will be forced to give up the temple mount area in retreat at the end of his 42 month rule (1,260 days) when his dominion is attacked which will then fall in the next 30 days.
The setting up of the abomination of desolation and the subsequent destruction of the sanctuary 110 days later will both be actions that prohibit Jewish worship (sacrifice) at the base of the temple mount (great synagog at the western wall). There will be a notible increase in their worship activity prior to the invasion and confiscation of the temple mount area by the little horn. The destruction of Mystery Babylon's "great city" and subsequent campaign to conquer the Middle East by the little horn and the 10 other horns will motivate Israel to seek their God.
Does the 70th week decreed for Israel contain tribulation events in the first and second half ? Does the second half extend beyond 1,260 days ? Careful reading of Scriptures related to this time period will reveal an affirmative answer to both of these questions. It is important for the student of Bible prophecy to grasp the timing of events belonging to the Lord's intervention at the end of this present age. Israel will be invaded, conquered, and ruled by the little horn, king of fierce countenance, as part of his expansion to form his 7th dominion in the Middle East. [Daniel 7:8, 8:23-25, 11:36] [Revelation 13, 17] [Zechariah 14:1-5]
The "great city" of Mystery Babylon will be destroyed by the 10 other horns (Middle Eastern kings) at the onset of the beginning of the 70th week. They will do this before they gain a consolidated dominion with the little horn. The first 4 trumpet judgments describe this destruction. [Revelation 8:7-12, 17:12-18]
There is another "great city" in Revelation which is Jerusalem. These two great cities are different. The one of Mystery Babylon is the "great city" of the nations and the other is the capital of national Israel. These are the only "great" cities recorded in Revelation's visions. All of the other cities in the world are the rest of the cities of the Gentiles (nations). [Revelation 11:8, 17:18]
God will revisit the land area of Mystery Babylon's "great city" at the end of the tribulation period and break it into three parts with a great worldwide earthquake which will also destroy all of the other cities in the world. [Revelation 16:18-19]
The little horn will confirm a covenant (it will only last for 7 years) on the day of the "great city's" destruction with the 10 kings and many followers. He will do this to support his next objectives which will be to conquer the Middle East including the nation of Israel, and then dominate the world. [Daniel 9:27]
On that same day the 5th and 6th trumpets will sound and both are related to Satan's release of Abaddon, the other abyss angels, and the release of the angels bound at the Euphrates River respectively. These satanic forces will be strategically employed by Satan to advance his objectives. [Revelation 9:1-11, 9:13-19]
Satan is the dragon in Revelation who gives his power and authority to the first beast (Abaddon). Abaddon will influence and ultimately incarnate (become) the little horn (the 8th king) and rule the Middle East with the 10 other horns. [Revelation 12:3, 13:1-4, 17:8-11]
The little horn is the human king (man of lawlessness) who will be seen by humans, but he will be the instrument of Satan and his christ, Abaddon, king of the abyss. [Second Thessalonians 2:3-12] He will encounter opposition from Egypt (king of the south), others in the Middle East, and nations farther east and north (tidings out of the east and north) of the Middle East. [Daniel 11:40-44]
He will succeed in defeating all opposition, including replacement of 3 of the 10 other kings, and will conquer Israel by the end of the first 3 1/2 years (1,260 days) of the 70th week. The abomination of desolation will be set up on the temple mount at the end of the first half of the 70th week. [Daniel 7:8, 12:7-11] He will then rule the Middle East and the Land of Israel for 42 months (1,260 days) until his dominion is destroyed by God's intervention (7th trumpet, 7 vial judgments) which will occur in the next 30 day period immediately following the end of his 42 month rule. [Revelation 11:2, 13:5, 16:1-14]
This second half (1,260 days) of the 70th week is also the same time frame for the protection of the Israelite remnant who flee into the wilderness east of Israel, and the operation of God's two witnesses (prophets). [Revelation 11:3, 12:6, 12:14] The little horn's dominion will be destroyed by God within the next additional 30 days for a total of 1,290 days comprising the last half of the tribulation period.
The Lord will appear visibly to the world immediately after those days and will gather and separate believers of the elect (national Israel) and from the Gentile nations to enter His earthly 1,000 year Kingdom. This will take 45 additional days for a total of 1,335 days. [Matthew 24:29-31, 25:31-46] [Daniel 12:12] Careful study of Daniel's visions will verify that the time of the end is structured according to these time frames. The reader needs to consider chapters 10:5, 10:14, 11:36-45, and 12:1-12 to get the complete picture.
There are two questions asked in chapter 12. One of the heavenly beings, possibly the Lord himself (compare Daniel 10:5-6 and Revelation 1:13-16), addresses the first question in 12:6 and the answer is given in 12:7. Then Daniel asks the second question in 12:8. Two different answers are given. The answer to the first question in 12:7 describes the first half of the 70th week (1,260 days...a time ,times, and 1/2 time), and the answer to the second question in 12:11 describes the second half of the 70th week (1,290 days).
It is important to note that there is a link in 12:7 back to chapter 11:36-45. The link is "he" (the little horn), and the verses in chapter 11:36-45 specifically describe his conquering of the Middle East and Israel. Israel will be conquered by the end of the "time, times, and 1/2 time". "All of these things shall be finished" refers to Daniel 11:36-45....the details leading up to the little horn's 42 month rule. The end of verse 45 points to the destruction of the little horn's dominion after his 42 month rule during the additional 30 days following the second half of the 70th week.
When Daniel asks the second question in 12:8 he wants to know what the outcome will be resulting from Israel's conquering by the little horn. The answer in verse 12:11 describes the 1,290 day period beginning from when the abomination of desolation is set up. This will be at the beginning of the little horn's rule (mid-point of the 70th week) which will last for 42 months and then his dominion will be destroyed in the next 30 days. This total period will be for 1,290 days and describes the last half of the tribulation period (last half of the 70th week plus 30 additional days).
The same time frame can be found in Daniel 8:13-14 and 8:23-26. The destruction of the sanctuary (place of worship like the great synagog at the base of the western wall of the temple mount) will occur 110 days after the abomination of desolation is set up. The 2,300 mornings and evenings should be interpreted as 1,150 days. At the end of the 1,150 days (same time as the end of the 1,260 days of the last half of the 70th week) the sanctuary (place of worship) and the temple mount will be restored to Israel. The little horn will be forced to give up the temple mount area in retreat at the end of his 42 month rule (1,260 days) when his dominion is attacked which will then fall in the next 30 days.
The setting up of the abomination of desolation and the subsequent destruction of the sanctuary 110 days later will both be actions that prohibit Jewish worship (sacrifice) at the base of the temple mount (great synagog at the western wall). There will be a notible increase in their worship activity prior to the invasion and confiscation of the temple mount area by the little horn. The destruction of Mystery Babylon's "great city" and subsequent campaign to conquer the Middle East by the little horn and the 10 other horns will motivate Israel to seek their God.
QUOTE (PraisingYeshua @ Apr 23 2006, 03:03 PM) 
QUOTE (RosielovesJesus @ Apr 23 2006, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE (onetiggerroo @ Apr 23 2006, 11:16 AM)
Orates, in case you missed this...
"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
"I am the in the group coverd by the BLOOD OF JESUS. Saved from my worldly sins. PRAISE GOD! "
I am in that group too.
Resting in that knowledge.
Yup yup! And while I agree Orates that some may fall away, if there is not a pre-trib rapture, to assume that most will, is rather unfair. I believe in a pre-trib rapture...and if it happens, great! Awesome! If not, great! Awesome! My faith is far stronger in Him than that...I am not one who would curse Him for my misinterpretation, if that's what it came to. Regardless, it doesn't make me a false christian...your blanket statement was pretty unfair.
There is going to be a falling away of Christians when the Antichrist is revealed and the Marking system instituted. Not every Christian will give in and take the Mark- but I believe that many will. Those who persevere and overcome will be found to be true Christians and those who give in and take the mark to save their lives will be the True Christians. Unfortunately, the majority of Christians today are worldy and will love their lives more that Christ. They are the seeds sown on the rocky soil who grow, but have no roots. They are also the seeds sown among the thorns, where the concerns of this world choke them out. They are also the 5 virgins, who do not have oil and have to go to the oil merchants, but when they try knocking on the door of Heaven, Jesus has to say to them- I never Knew You!.
O
QUOTE (Orates @ Apr 20 2006, 12:57 PM)
The Antichrist- Leader of a Ten Nation Confederacy who takes over the underground Jewish Temple during the Mid Week War in the Mid East and requires everyone to take a UPC Mark on their hand or forward to be able to buy and sell. He tries to persecute the fleeing Jews, but fails. He turns his wrath on Christians and the Two Witnesses. He comes to his end at the Battle of Armageddon.
The 144,000- Believing Jewish virgin men, throughout the world, who evangelize during the second half of Daniel's 70th week and are seen standing with Jesus on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 years.
The Two Witnesses- Elijah and Enoch (some say Moses) returned to earth who evangelize and torment unbelievers for the last 3 1/2 years. They are killed by the Antichrist and then Resurrect before the world's eyes-rising up to the heavens.
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
Jewish Believers- Those Jews living in Jerusalem, who believe the prophecies, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel (possibly Petra) when they see the Antichrist take over the underground secret Jewish Sanctuary or Holy of Holies and place the Abomination of Desolation or command computer there. They are protected there for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist forces and are Raptured at the Last Trump.
Jewish Unbelievers- They are persecuted in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week in Jacob's trouble where only a portion survives till they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. They convert at this time and run for protection into the valley that forms when Jesus' foot touches the Mt. of Olives. They enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies (their Promised Land) with Jesus as their King and the Saints as their leaders.
Unbelievers Who Take the Mark- These damned souls go through the Wrath of God and are destroyed by the Brightness of Jesus' Coming. They live again after the 1000 years are over and then are destroyed again and stand before the Great White Judgment to be thown into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers Who Refuse to Take the Mark- If these survivalists make it to the Millennium Kingdom they will be the ones who are at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on there Wedding Garments- they are cast out in the Sheep and Goat judgment to join the other unbelievers who have taken the Mark.
Unbelievers Who Refuse the Mark and Convert at Jesus' Appearance in the Clouds- these are the Gentiles who have not taken the Mark and become believers at the 2nd Coming. They are the mortals who live in the nations surrounding Israel who have to come up to Jeruslem yearly on the Feast of the Tabernacles to worship the King or they do not get any rain.
The final question is, "Which group will you be in?"
Orates
The 144,000- Believing Jewish virgin men, throughout the world, who evangelize during the second half of Daniel's 70th week and are seen standing with Jesus on the Mount of Olives at the end of the 7 years.
The Two Witnesses- Elijah and Enoch (some say Moses) returned to earth who evangelize and torment unbelievers for the last 3 1/2 years. They are killed by the Antichrist and then Resurrect before the world's eyes-rising up to the heavens.
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
True Christians- Theses are the ones prepared for persecution and endure to the end as overcomers. Many are persecuted to death as homeless, vagrant, insane resistors to the Antichrist's marking system. They are Resurrected at the Last Trump and return with Jesus (and all the Resurrected Saints from history) on White horses to do battle against the armies of Satan at Armageddon. They reign with Christ over the mortal cities of Israel for 1000 years.
Jewish Believers- Those Jews living in Jerusalem, who believe the prophecies, flee by plane to the wilderness east of Israel (possibly Petra) when they see the Antichrist take over the underground secret Jewish Sanctuary or Holy of Holies and place the Abomination of Desolation or command computer there. They are protected there for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist forces and are Raptured at the Last Trump.
Jewish Unbelievers- They are persecuted in the latter half of Daniel's 70th Week in Jacob's trouble where only a portion survives till they see their Messiah appear in the clouds. They convert at this time and run for protection into the valley that forms when Jesus' foot touches the Mt. of Olives. They enter the Millennium Kingdom in their mortal bodies (their Promised Land) with Jesus as their King and the Saints as their leaders.
Unbelievers Who Take the Mark- These damned souls go through the Wrath of God and are destroyed by the Brightness of Jesus' Coming. They live again after the 1000 years are over and then are destroyed again and stand before the Great White Judgment to be thown into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers Who Refuse to Take the Mark- If these survivalists make it to the Millennium Kingdom they will be the ones who are at the Wedding Feast, but do not have on there Wedding Garments- they are cast out in the Sheep and Goat judgment to join the other unbelievers who have taken the Mark.
Unbelievers Who Refuse the Mark and Convert at Jesus' Appearance in the Clouds- these are the Gentiles who have not taken the Mark and become believers at the 2nd Coming. They are the mortals who live in the nations surrounding Israel who have to come up to Jeruslem yearly on the Feast of the Tabernacles to worship the King or they do not get any rain.
The final question is, "Which group will you be in?"
Orates
Two points:
#1 he Antichrist will not make it into the Millennium, but I have included him in this post to show what happens to him.
#2 Not everyone who believes in a pre-trib rapture will fall away, but those who overcome will have to recant and be prepared to be persecuted.
O
O,
Are you prepared? What have you done to prepare to be persecuted? Will you have your head cut off, or will you just be killed in the tribulation? Who is going to persecute you and where will you be at the time?
I do see one thing you left out of the millennial kingdom .... the believing mortals who will repopulate the earth. Who are they?
Are you prepared? What have you done to prepare to be persecuted? Will you have your head cut off, or will you just be killed in the tribulation? Who is going to persecute you and where will you be at the time?
I do see one thing you left out of the millennial kingdom .... the believing mortals who will repopulate the earth. Who are they?
QUOTE (Stephen @ May 3 2008, 10:26 AM)
O,
Are you prepared? What have you done to prepare to be persecuted? Will you have your head cut off, or will you just be killed in the tribulation? Who is going to persecute you and where will you be at the time?
I do see one thing you left out of the millennial kingdom .... the believing mortals who will repopulate the earth. Who are they?
Are you prepared? What have you done to prepare to be persecuted? Will you have your head cut off, or will you just be killed in the tribulation? Who is going to persecute you and where will you be at the time?
I do see one thing you left out of the millennial kingdom .... the believing mortals who will repopulate the earth. Who are they?
The preparation is mainly the expectation of persecution vs the expectation of evacuation. I am prepared to: to see the Antichrist, resist his new economic order, not be able to buy and sell, and be persecuted to death for being a Christian. I am not a survivalist, so the preparation is mainly psychological. What do you think will happen to some Christians who firmly believe in the evacuation and it doesn't happen for them?
The only mortals left to enter the Millennium are the Jews who have survived Jacob's Trouble and will accept their Messiah when He appears in the clouds. Jesus will set His foot upon the Mt. of Olives, split it open, and the surviving Jews will escape into the valley that is formed for protection. They will enter the Millennium in mortal form and be the ones who have children. They won't re-populate the world though. The Saints, which are attacked at the end of the Millennium by the resurrected forces of Gog and Magog lead by the newly released devil, are camped around Jerusalem- not the whole world. There are no children born in the Millennium who will rebel against Christ at the end of the Millennium.
There probably won't be any surviving mortal Christians who escape the persecution of the Antichrist. If there are any, they will have had to avoid capture for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist's forces using the latest high tech detection system. If there are any Christians who survive, they will be Raptured along with the Jews hiding in the wilderness at the end of Tribulation just before the Day of Wrath begins. They are not appointed for the Day of Wrath.
O
well you can say i wil be the one with the anti christ since my name is damien and i belong to a main stream church and because my partner is a filapino pastor we are seen as satans servants
when it comes to christians who seem to think they have this hine sight to were they can tell were a person is at when it comes to on line christian forums i mean all i see when i am on line is my computer screen and the key board when i am typing a reply to a post
realy has any one got this hine sight to were they can tell were a brother or sister in the lord is ? were has honesty gone these days has it taken a walk with religon are honesty and religon drinking it up laughing at how they have been able to manipulate the brethren ?
wil you will be a poor sap come judgment day if you have not taken your time to read your bible or study and if you are one of these people that go by what man says instead of god i feel sorry for you read the book of jude the book of jude will tel you who ends up in the lake of fire
so you can say me and my partner and the pastors under us and the other pastors i know will be right as we are satans tools the pope will be with us tools and so will al the parish preists and the bishops and the nuns
come on what a bunch of hog wash can you realy predict when Jesus is going to show up
what is this saying to you
matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour no one knows not even the angels of heaven but my father only
44 Therefore you also be ready for the son of man is comming at an hour you do not expect
so why all the talk who will be their and who will be were and when persecution comes will you stand your ground or join satan and take on the mark of the beast to save your hide
hay i will be glad when he decides its time to judge the world this is what i am praying for and i am weighting if i pass away i feel sorry for my son and his grand kids
God bless from damo
when it comes to christians who seem to think they have this hine sight to were they can tell were a person is at when it comes to on line christian forums i mean all i see when i am on line is my computer screen and the key board when i am typing a reply to a post
realy has any one got this hine sight to were they can tell were a brother or sister in the lord is ? were has honesty gone these days has it taken a walk with religon are honesty and religon drinking it up laughing at how they have been able to manipulate the brethren ?
wil you will be a poor sap come judgment day if you have not taken your time to read your bible or study and if you are one of these people that go by what man says instead of god i feel sorry for you read the book of jude the book of jude will tel you who ends up in the lake of fire
so you can say me and my partner and the pastors under us and the other pastors i know will be right as we are satans tools the pope will be with us tools and so will al the parish preists and the bishops and the nuns
come on what a bunch of hog wash can you realy predict when Jesus is going to show up
what is this saying to you
matthew 24
36 But of that day and hour no one knows not even the angels of heaven but my father only
44 Therefore you also be ready for the son of man is comming at an hour you do not expect
so why all the talk who will be their and who will be were and when persecution comes will you stand your ground or join satan and take on the mark of the beast to save your hide
hay i will be glad when he decides its time to judge the world this is what i am praying for and i am weighting if i pass away i feel sorry for my son and his grand kids
God bless from damo
Amen. I was a pre triber. You know go with the flow, LaLaLa straight to hell.
Im going mid or after. This Pre trib doctrine is very new.
Many bible scholars are droping pre trib.(John McCarthor is going mid trib) many say mid trib.
Now ive heard and from other forum s that say there is no rapturing other than the 2nd coming of Christ.
Scripture does say , "The sun and moon will be darkened then after those days shall come the Son of Man/God.
This quote is scarry( unless they repent of course):
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
Im going mid or after. This Pre trib doctrine is very new.
Many bible scholars are droping pre trib.(John McCarthor is going mid trib) many say mid trib.
Now ive heard and from other forum s that say there is no rapturing other than the 2nd coming of Christ.
Scripture does say , "The sun and moon will be darkened then after those days shall come the Son of Man/God.
This quote is scarry( unless they repent of course):
False Christians- The ones who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture and fall away when the Antichrist is revealed and they find themselves still here on earth. They will say "This can't be the Mark of the Beast because we are supposed to be Raptured before it." This group also includes those false Christians who give in to the Antichrist's system and accept his Mark to be able to buy and sell. They may live for awhile, but are destroyed in the Wrath of God- along with the rest of the marked unbelievers.
It doesn't damn a person just believing in Pre-Trib, you have to believe in it so much that you can't see what is happening in front of you. You will say in that day, "This can't be the treaty, this can't be the Tribulation, this can't be the Antichrist, and this can't be the Mark, because the Rapture hasn't happened yet!
If you believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, but are willing to recant your belief that the Rapture will save you from tribulation when you see the end time prophecies unfold, and you are prepared to resist the Antichrist's system to the point of death, then you are OK. I am not worried about you. It is those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture as a tenet of faith and would never lose face by recanting, and who would deny that Tribulation has even started- then take the Mark of the Antichrist and fall away- they are the ones I worry about.
Do I have to worry about you?
I believe the Rapture happens before the Day of Wrath at the Last Trump just before Jesus returns- at the time the Two Witnesses are taken up. I believe that most Christians will be persecuted to death before the Rapture and that the believing Jews hiding in the wilderness are the ones who will be Raptured (We who are alive and remain).
There is coming a Falling Away of Christians when the Antichrist is revealed. It will be at least 50% (5 Virgins are ready 5 are not). Please tell me you will not be one of them!
O
If you believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture, but are willing to recant your belief that the Rapture will save you from tribulation when you see the end time prophecies unfold, and you are prepared to resist the Antichrist's system to the point of death, then you are OK. I am not worried about you. It is those who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture as a tenet of faith and would never lose face by recanting, and who would deny that Tribulation has even started- then take the Mark of the Antichrist and fall away- they are the ones I worry about.
Do I have to worry about you?
I believe the Rapture happens before the Day of Wrath at the Last Trump just before Jesus returns- at the time the Two Witnesses are taken up. I believe that most Christians will be persecuted to death before the Rapture and that the believing Jews hiding in the wilderness are the ones who will be Raptured (We who are alive and remain).
There is coming a Falling Away of Christians when the Antichrist is revealed. It will be at least 50% (5 Virgins are ready 5 are not). Please tell me you will not be one of them!
O
O,
"The preparation is mainly the expectation of persecution vs the expectation of evacuation. I am prepared to: to see the Antichrist, resist his new economic order, not be able to buy and sell, and be persecuted to death for being a Christian. I am not a survivalist, so the preparation is mainly psychological. What do you think will happen to some Christians who firmly believe in the evacuation and it doesn't happen for them?
>A better question is what do I think about those who refute the Lord's promise to keep them from His coming judgment against unbelief? If one refutes this promise what does this tell me about the person? I can also tell you that what you say you are prepared for is the same as any true believer who has an understanding ot the scriptures on the subject. No difference. So why are you "more" prepared? What is different about your preparation? There are "professing" christians who may think they will "escape" if they have even heard about the Lord's "harpazo" action, but they are not true believers anyway .... and the majority of them know nothing, or even care about it. So I think your argument here is extremely weak and not vaild at all. The real exposure is not being "ready" for the Lord's sudden unannounced call for the Body of Christ. I think refutation may very well put one in this position.
The only mortals left to enter the Millennium are the Jews who have survived Jacob's Trouble and will accept their Messiah when He appears in the clouds.
> What about the gathering and separating of the gentile nations after the tribulation? Why is this action by the Lord necessary? Why are there numerous references to mortal gentiles [the nations] existing and populating the millennium in both the O.T. and N.T.? Do you sweep these under the rug or allegorize them so that you can suport your post-tribulational concepts? Why would you do this? So that you can refute what you call a "pre-trib rapture"?
Jesus will set His foot upon the Mt. of Olives, split it open, and the surviving Jews will escape into the valley that is formed for protection. They will enter the Millennium in mortal form and be the ones who have children. They won't re-populate the world though.
>What planet will they have children on? And where do the nations in addition to national Israel that will also exist during the millennium come from?
The Saints, which are attacked at the end of the Millennium by the resurrected forces of Gog and Magog lead by the newly released devil, are camped around Jerusalem- not the whole world. There are no children born in the Millennium who will rebel against Christ at the end of the Millennium.
>Who is the newly released devil who will deceive the mortal nations of the millennium? Is it not the same Satan [Gog] who causes the human rebellion destroyed at Armageddon? My Bible says that Israel will be attacked by a human rebellion from all 4 directions on the earth at the end of the millennium and their numbers are huge .... just who do you think these "nations" are that will be deceived by Satan? Where will they come from? How many of those of the gentile nations will survive the tribulation period in your opinion? If not many [you say probably none], then where do the large numbers of mortals come from who will rebel against the Lord at the end of His millennial kingdom? Some other planet?
There probably won't be any surviving mortal Christians who escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
>Probably? How do you know none will? Who are the separated believing sheep in Matthew 25:31-46? If you say these believing sheep and the unbelieving goats are resurrected mortals, then why is the separation necessary? Will not the spirits of the unbelieving dead goats be resurrected to face judgment at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom? Why would these goats be resurrected at the end of the tribulation period? The answer is they will not be resurrected .... and neither are the sheep resurrected at the end of the tribulation period. These gatherings are not resurrections. These gatherings are of mortals who will survive the tribulation period; of the believing elect of national Israel [Matthew 24:29-31] and of the believing sheep of the nations who will enter the kingdom as mortals ....and they will both reproduce during the period. The mortal goats [unbelievers] will not enter the kingdom, but will be cast off and resurrected to judgment and the second death of their spirits at the end of the millennial kingdom, and burned in the lake of fire.
>The question then for you is .... when will the Boby of Christ immortalized if not at the end of the tribulation period? The answer and proofs are in the Book of Revelation. Can you find them?
If there are any, they will have had to avoid capture for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist's forces using the latest high tech detection system. If there are any Christians who survive, they will be Raptured along with the Jews hiding in the wilderness at the end of Tribulation just before the Day of Wrath begins. They are not appointed for the Day of Wrath.'
>If all of the survivors [you say there will none .... probably?] are "raptured" at the end of the tribulation period then who are the elect, the sheep, and the goats? And who will form the mortal nations that will exist during the millennial kingdom? Do you actually think that these kingdom nations will be "saved" resurrected immortals who will be vulnerable to satan's deception at the end of the period of which a large number will rebel against the Lord and burned in the lake of fire? Your post-ribulation theory cannot explain who these kingdom mortals are because the teaching is false. I would suggest that you question why? What is the motivation behind this teaching? This is the real issue. Are you missing something?
"The preparation is mainly the expectation of persecution vs the expectation of evacuation. I am prepared to: to see the Antichrist, resist his new economic order, not be able to buy and sell, and be persecuted to death for being a Christian. I am not a survivalist, so the preparation is mainly psychological. What do you think will happen to some Christians who firmly believe in the evacuation and it doesn't happen for them?
>A better question is what do I think about those who refute the Lord's promise to keep them from His coming judgment against unbelief? If one refutes this promise what does this tell me about the person? I can also tell you that what you say you are prepared for is the same as any true believer who has an understanding ot the scriptures on the subject. No difference. So why are you "more" prepared? What is different about your preparation? There are "professing" christians who may think they will "escape" if they have even heard about the Lord's "harpazo" action, but they are not true believers anyway .... and the majority of them know nothing, or even care about it. So I think your argument here is extremely weak and not vaild at all. The real exposure is not being "ready" for the Lord's sudden unannounced call for the Body of Christ. I think refutation may very well put one in this position.
The only mortals left to enter the Millennium are the Jews who have survived Jacob's Trouble and will accept their Messiah when He appears in the clouds.
> What about the gathering and separating of the gentile nations after the tribulation? Why is this action by the Lord necessary? Why are there numerous references to mortal gentiles [the nations] existing and populating the millennium in both the O.T. and N.T.? Do you sweep these under the rug or allegorize them so that you can suport your post-tribulational concepts? Why would you do this? So that you can refute what you call a "pre-trib rapture"?
Jesus will set His foot upon the Mt. of Olives, split it open, and the surviving Jews will escape into the valley that is formed for protection. They will enter the Millennium in mortal form and be the ones who have children. They won't re-populate the world though.
>What planet will they have children on? And where do the nations in addition to national Israel that will also exist during the millennium come from?
The Saints, which are attacked at the end of the Millennium by the resurrected forces of Gog and Magog lead by the newly released devil, are camped around Jerusalem- not the whole world. There are no children born in the Millennium who will rebel against Christ at the end of the Millennium.
>Who is the newly released devil who will deceive the mortal nations of the millennium? Is it not the same Satan [Gog] who causes the human rebellion destroyed at Armageddon? My Bible says that Israel will be attacked by a human rebellion from all 4 directions on the earth at the end of the millennium and their numbers are huge .... just who do you think these "nations" are that will be deceived by Satan? Where will they come from? How many of those of the gentile nations will survive the tribulation period in your opinion? If not many [you say probably none], then where do the large numbers of mortals come from who will rebel against the Lord at the end of His millennial kingdom? Some other planet?
There probably won't be any surviving mortal Christians who escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
>Probably? How do you know none will? Who are the separated believing sheep in Matthew 25:31-46? If you say these believing sheep and the unbelieving goats are resurrected mortals, then why is the separation necessary? Will not the spirits of the unbelieving dead goats be resurrected to face judgment at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom? Why would these goats be resurrected at the end of the tribulation period? The answer is they will not be resurrected .... and neither are the sheep resurrected at the end of the tribulation period. These gatherings are not resurrections. These gatherings are of mortals who will survive the tribulation period; of the believing elect of national Israel [Matthew 24:29-31] and of the believing sheep of the nations who will enter the kingdom as mortals ....and they will both reproduce during the period. The mortal goats [unbelievers] will not enter the kingdom, but will be cast off and resurrected to judgment and the second death of their spirits at the end of the millennial kingdom, and burned in the lake of fire.
>The question then for you is .... when will the Boby of Christ immortalized if not at the end of the tribulation period? The answer and proofs are in the Book of Revelation. Can you find them?
If there are any, they will have had to avoid capture for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist's forces using the latest high tech detection system. If there are any Christians who survive, they will be Raptured along with the Jews hiding in the wilderness at the end of Tribulation just before the Day of Wrath begins. They are not appointed for the Day of Wrath.'
>If all of the survivors [you say there will none .... probably?] are "raptured" at the end of the tribulation period then who are the elect, the sheep, and the goats? And who will form the mortal nations that will exist during the millennial kingdom? Do you actually think that these kingdom nations will be "saved" resurrected immortals who will be vulnerable to satan's deception at the end of the period of which a large number will rebel against the Lord and burned in the lake of fire? Your post-ribulation theory cannot explain who these kingdom mortals are because the teaching is false. I would suggest that you question why? What is the motivation behind this teaching? This is the real issue. Are you missing something?
QUOTE (Stephen @ May 4 2008, 10:38 AM)
>A better question is what do I think about those who refute the Lord's promise to keep them from His coming judgment against unbelief?
When one believes satan is Christ...the antichrist (instead of Christ) then one has stopped believing in the true Christ they are then involved in "UNBELIEF." Many will do so because of just what Orates wrote. The false one comes first yet no one teaches that. Instead they are told they will be raptured away.....flying off to glory!
Ezekiel 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord God; 'Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to MAKE THEM FLY, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the SOULS THAT YE HUNT TO MAKE THEM FLY.
I wonder what that means?
......Whirlwind
WW,
I will not respond to you because of your current position. Far from mine. But your scriptural offering is taken totally out of context and has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the post. I can tell you what the verse means, but it would be to no avail. Taking the verse out of context and applying it to the timing of the Lord's call for the Body of Christ is one thing, but you should consider the larger application within the context given and think about what you are doing.
I will not respond to you because of your current position. Far from mine. But your scriptural offering is taken totally out of context and has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the post. I can tell you what the verse means, but it would be to no avail. Taking the verse out of context and applying it to the timing of the Lord's call for the Body of Christ is one thing, but you should consider the larger application within the context given and think about what you are doing.
QUOTE (Stephen @ May 4 2008, 11:23 AM)
WW,
I will not respond to you because of your position. Far from mine. But your scriptural offering is taken totally out of context and has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the post. I can tell you what the verse means, but it would be to no avail.
I will not respond to you because of your position. Far from mine. But your scriptural offering is taken totally out of context and has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of the post. I can tell you what the verse means, but it would be to no avail.
My position? Oh, you must mean searching for Biblical truth.
Out of context? Souls flying into the sky....what can that have to do with rapture?
.......Whirlwind
Absolutely nothing
QUOTE (Stephen @ May 4 2008, 11:37 AM)
Absolutely nothing
I suppose you never saw all those drawings of men and women ascending into the clouds in long white robes toward heaven. It seems everytime I watch a television "religious" program that is all they discuss and show. The rapture, when souls fly into the clouds. Sure sounds like what God is speaking about in the Ezekiel verse to me.
But, maybe it means something else...we'll see.
........Whirlwind
I am not impressed by religious programs on T.V. and I don't have any appreciation for 'Christian" drawings or paintings .....especially those created in the medieval dark ages .... they are disgusting. I can also tell you that there is no correlation between the Lord's "harpazo" [explained in detain in the N.T.] and the "flying" divinations of the false prophetesses of Israel in Ezekiel's day. Causing their captives to "fly" has nothing to do with what the Lord is going to do regarding the Body of Christ. The shamans of Israel were inducing false "spiritual" sensations [flying] into their followers. Then they proceded to mislead them with false prophecy.
QUOTE (Stephen @ May 4 2008, 11:38 AM)
O,
"The preparation is mainly the expectation of persecution vs the expectation of evacuation. I am prepared to: to see the Antichrist, resist his new economic order, not be able to buy and sell, and be persecuted to death for being a Christian. I am not a survivalist, so the preparation is mainly psychological. What do you think will happen to some Christians who firmly believe in the evacuation and it doesn't happen for them?
>A better question is what do I think about those who refute the Lord's promise to keep them from His coming judgment against unbelief? If one refutes this promise what does this tell me about the person? I can also tell you that what you say you are prepared for is the same as any true believer who has an understanding ot the scriptures on the subject. No difference. So why are you "more" prepared? What is different about your preparation? There are "professing" christians who may think they will "escape" if they have even heard about the Lord's "harpazo" action, but they are not true believers anyway .... and the majority of them know nothing, or even care about it. So I think your argument here is extremely weak and not vaild at all. The real exposure is not being "ready" for the Lord's sudden unannounced call for the Body of Christ. I think refutation may very well put one in this position.
The only mortals left to enter the Millennium are the Jews who have survived Jacob's Trouble and will accept their Messiah when He appears in the clouds.
> What about the gathering and separating of the gentile nations after the tribulation? Why is this action by the Lord necessary? Why are there numerous references to mortal gentiles [the nations] existing and populating the millennium in both the O.T. and N.T.? Do you sweep these under the rug or allegorize them so that you can suport your post-tribulational concepts? Why would you do this? So that you can refute what you call a "pre-trib rapture"?
Jesus will set His foot upon the Mt. of Olives, split it open, and the surviving Jews will escape into the valley that is formed for protection. They will enter the Millennium in mortal form and be the ones who have children. They won't re-populate the world though.
>What planet will they have children on? And where do the nations in addition to national Israel that will also exist during the millennium come from?
The Saints, which are attacked at the end of the Millennium by the resurrected forces of Gog and Magog lead by the newly released devil, are camped around Jerusalem- not the whole world. There are no children born in the Millennium who will rebel against Christ at the end of the Millennium.
>Who is the newly released devil who will deceive the mortal nations of the millennium? Is it not the same Satan [Gog] who causes the human rebellion destroyed at Armageddon? My Bible says that Israel will be attacked by a human rebellion from all 4 directions on the earth at the end of the millennium and their numbers are huge .... just who do you think these "nations" are that will be deceived by Satan? Where will they come from? How many of those of the gentile nations will survive the tribulation period in your opinion? If not many [you say probably none], then where do the large numbers of mortals come from who will rebel against the Lord at the end of His millennial kingdom? Some other planet?
There probably won't be any surviving mortal Christians who escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
>Probably? How do you know none will? Who are the separated believing sheep in Matthew 25:31-46? If you say these believing sheep and the unbelieving goats are resurrected mortals, then why is the separation necessary? Will not the spirits of the unbelieving dead goats be resurrected to face judgment at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom? Why would these goats be resurrected at the end of the tribulation period? The answer is they will not be resurrected .... and neither are the sheep resurrected at the end of the tribulation period. These gatherings are not resurrections. These gatherings are of mortals who will survive the tribulation period; of the believing elect of national Israel [Matthew 24:29-31] and of the believing sheep of the nations who will enter the kingdom as mortals ....and they will both reproduce during the period. The mortal goats [unbelievers] will not enter the kingdom, but will be cast off and resurrected to judgment and the second death of their spirits at the end of the millennial kingdom, and burned in the lake of fire.
>The question then for you is .... when will the Boby of Christ immortalized if not at the end of the tribulation period? The answer and proofs are in the Book of Revelation. Can you find them?
If there are any, they will have had to avoid capture for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist's forces using the latest high tech detection system. If there are any Christians who survive, they will be Raptured along with the Jews hiding in the wilderness at the end of Tribulation just before the Day of Wrath begins. They are not appointed for the Day of Wrath.'
>If all of the survivors [you say there will none .... probably?] are "raptured" at the end of the tribulation period then who are the elect, the sheep, and the goats? And who will form the mortal nations that will exist during the millennial kingdom? Do you actually think that these kingdom nations will be "saved" resurrected immortals who will be vulnerable to satan's deception at the end of the period of which a large number will rebel against the Lord and burned in the lake of fire? Your post-ribulation theory cannot explain who these kingdom mortals are because the teaching is false. I would suggest that you question why? What is the motivation behind this teaching? This is the real issue. Are you missing something?
"The preparation is mainly the expectation of persecution vs the expectation of evacuation. I am prepared to: to see the Antichrist, resist his new economic order, not be able to buy and sell, and be persecuted to death for being a Christian. I am not a survivalist, so the preparation is mainly psychological. What do you think will happen to some Christians who firmly believe in the evacuation and it doesn't happen for them?
>A better question is what do I think about those who refute the Lord's promise to keep them from His coming judgment against unbelief? If one refutes this promise what does this tell me about the person? I can also tell you that what you say you are prepared for is the same as any true believer who has an understanding ot the scriptures on the subject. No difference. So why are you "more" prepared? What is different about your preparation? There are "professing" christians who may think they will "escape" if they have even heard about the Lord's "harpazo" action, but they are not true believers anyway .... and the majority of them know nothing, or even care about it. So I think your argument here is extremely weak and not vaild at all. The real exposure is not being "ready" for the Lord's sudden unannounced call for the Body of Christ. I think refutation may very well put one in this position.
The only mortals left to enter the Millennium are the Jews who have survived Jacob's Trouble and will accept their Messiah when He appears in the clouds.
> What about the gathering and separating of the gentile nations after the tribulation? Why is this action by the Lord necessary? Why are there numerous references to mortal gentiles [the nations] existing and populating the millennium in both the O.T. and N.T.? Do you sweep these under the rug or allegorize them so that you can suport your post-tribulational concepts? Why would you do this? So that you can refute what you call a "pre-trib rapture"?
Jesus will set His foot upon the Mt. of Olives, split it open, and the surviving Jews will escape into the valley that is formed for protection. They will enter the Millennium in mortal form and be the ones who have children. They won't re-populate the world though.
>What planet will they have children on? And where do the nations in addition to national Israel that will also exist during the millennium come from?
The Saints, which are attacked at the end of the Millennium by the resurrected forces of Gog and Magog lead by the newly released devil, are camped around Jerusalem- not the whole world. There are no children born in the Millennium who will rebel against Christ at the end of the Millennium.
>Who is the newly released devil who will deceive the mortal nations of the millennium? Is it not the same Satan [Gog] who causes the human rebellion destroyed at Armageddon? My Bible says that Israel will be attacked by a human rebellion from all 4 directions on the earth at the end of the millennium and their numbers are huge .... just who do you think these "nations" are that will be deceived by Satan? Where will they come from? How many of those of the gentile nations will survive the tribulation period in your opinion? If not many [you say probably none], then where do the large numbers of mortals come from who will rebel against the Lord at the end of His millennial kingdom? Some other planet?
There probably won't be any surviving mortal Christians who escape the persecution of the Antichrist.
>Probably? How do you know none will? Who are the separated believing sheep in Matthew 25:31-46? If you say these believing sheep and the unbelieving goats are resurrected mortals, then why is the separation necessary? Will not the spirits of the unbelieving dead goats be resurrected to face judgment at the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom? Why would these goats be resurrected at the end of the tribulation period? The answer is they will not be resurrected .... and neither are the sheep resurrected at the end of the tribulation period. These gatherings are not resurrections. These gatherings are of mortals who will survive the tribulation period; of the believing elect of national Israel [Matthew 24:29-31] and of the believing sheep of the nations who will enter the kingdom as mortals ....and they will both reproduce during the period. The mortal goats [unbelievers] will not enter the kingdom, but will be cast off and resurrected to judgment and the second death of their spirits at the end of the millennial kingdom, and burned in the lake of fire.
>The question then for you is .... when will the Boby of Christ immortalized if not at the end of the tribulation period? The answer and proofs are in the Book of Revelation. Can you find them?
If there are any, they will have had to avoid capture for 3 1/2 years from the Antichrist's forces using the latest high tech detection system. If there are any Christians who survive, they will be Raptured along with the Jews hiding in the wilderness at the end of Tribulation just before the Day of Wrath begins. They are not appointed for the Day of Wrath.'
>If all of the survivors [you say there will none .... probably?] are "raptured" at the end of the tribulation period then who are the elect, the sheep, and the goats? And who will form the mortal nations that will exist during the millennial kingdom? Do you actually think that these kingdom nations will be "saved" resurrected immortals who will be vulnerable to satan's deception at the end of the period of which a large number will rebel against the Lord and burned in the lake of fire? Your post-ribulation theory cannot explain who these kingdom mortals are because the teaching is false. I would suggest that you question why? What is the motivation behind this teaching? This is the real issue. Are you missing something?
Maybe I can simplify it down to the basics-
It all starts at Midweek when the Antichrist is revealed sitting in the Sanctuary Fortress in Jerusalem. THis is the sign for believing Jews to escape into the wilderness. They are the ones who are alive and remain till Jesus comes, because they are protected by God. The Antichrist requires that everyone take a mark to buy and sell. Anyone who takes it are damned and they live until the Wrath is complete. Anyone who does not accept it are persecuted to death. Some may be able to avoid persecution and survive hiding out. At the day of Wrath the Jews hiding in the wilderness and any surviving Christians are Raptured just after the dead in Christ are Resurrected. They return with Christ at Armageddon to destroy those who took the mark. The surviving Jews in Jerusalem accept their Messiah when they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven. They escape the Wrath in the valley that is formed by the splitting of the Mount of Olives. When Jesus comes He will divide those who survived who didn't take the mark and have accepted Christ from those who survived who didn't take the mark and/or rejected Christ. These are the ones who are at the wedding Feast, but do not have on the Wedding Garments. They are cast out of the Millennium to join those before them.
The surviving Jews and Christians who have not taken the mark and have accepted Christ are the only mortals that live in the Millennium. Everyone else has either been killed in the Wrath or separated in the Sheep and Goat Judgment.
When the Millennium is over the lost from all ages will be Resurrected in the 2nd Resurrection and stand in their unglorified bodies. Satan will be released to lead them to battle against Jerusalem once again (Gog and Magog returned to life). They are gathered together by Satan from all over the world to fight against the camp of the Saints, but are destroyed by fire from Heaven. They then stand before the Great White Judgment Seat and are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
The Saints spend eternity in a new Earth and New Heaven- the city of New Jerusalem.
O
QUOTE (Stephen @ May 4 2008, 03:50 PM)
I am not impressed by religious programs on T.V. and I don't have any appreciation for 'Christian" drawings or paintings .....especially those created in the medieval dark ages .... they are disgusting. I can also tell you that there is no correlation between the Lord's "harpazo" [explained in detain in the N.T.] and the "flying" divinations of the false prophetesses of Israel in Ezekiel's day. Causing their captives to "fly" has nothing to do with what the Lord is going to do regarding the Body of Christ. The shamans of Israel were inducing false "spiritual" sensations [flying] into their followers. Then they proceded to mislead them with false prophecy.
"Explained in detail in the NT"....Again Stephen....where is that written in detail?
The "flying divinations" are in churches TODAY. Take for instance John Hagee. He has billboards behind the pulpit depicting men and women soaring up into the clouds leaving all the others behind to wonder where they have gone. This is not about the "shamans" in ancient times...it is about now and God is telling us what He thinks about today's shysters selling their books, preaching their misguided sermons about the "harpazo" action.
He is against those that "hunt the souls to make them fly."
....Whirlwind
Orates said:
Maybe I can simplify it down to the basics-
It all starts at Midweek when the Antichrist is revealed sitting in the Sanctuary Fortress in Jerusalem. THis is the sign for believing Jews to escape into the wilderness. They are the ones who are alive and remain till Jesus comes, because they are protected by God. The Antichrist requires that everyone take a mark to buy and sell. Anyone who takes it are damned and they live until the Wrath is complete. Anyone who does not accept it are persecuted to death.
>I believe you error here. Not all who refuse the mark will be killed. This is impossible because mortal believers will enter the millennial kingdom. The nations that satan will not be able to deceive during the millennium will be composed of mortals. The immortal church who will also be present at the time will have no need to be kept from satan's deception .... only mortals can be deceived by satan and lose their salvation. Some of the mortals of the millennium will obviously be deceived into rebellion against the Lord when satan is released at the end of the period. The immortals of the church will not do this.
Some may be able to avoid persecution and survive hiding out.
>Now you are saying something different and this is exactly what will happen. It is these believing mortals who will survive the tribulation period and they will enter the millennial kingdom as mortals .... not as resurrected beings. Only the martyred believers of the tribulation will need resurrection and they will be added to the immortal church at the end period. All of these believers, those martyred and those who escape and hide, will be those who become believers during the tribulation period .... Israelite or Gentile.
At the day of Wrath the Jews hiding in the wilderness and any surviving Christians are Raptured just after the dead in Christ are Resurrected.
> If true, there would be no mortal believers to enter the millennial kingdom. This is not true.
They return with Christ at Armageddon to destroy those who took the mark.
>Only the immortal church and those who become believers during the tribulation and are martyred can return with the Lord at Armageddon. No others.
The surviving Jews in Jerusalem accept their Messiah when they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven. They escape the Wrath in the valley that is formed by the splitting of the Mount of Olives.
>This is true and these Israelites are the believers who will enter the millennial kingdom as mortals .... not as resurrected beings. These Israelite mortals will reproduce in the millennial kingdom ..... immortals do not reproduce. So will mortal believers of the Gentile nations do the same.
When Jesus comes He will divide those who survived who didn't take the mark and have accepted Christ from those who survived who didn't take the mark and/or rejected Christ. These are the ones who are at the wedding Feast, but do not have on the Wedding Garments. They are cast out of the Millennium to join those before them.
>No way. The gatherings and separating are of mortals, and none of these are at the wedding feast which takes place in heaven before Armageddon. These gatherings on the earth take place after the days of the tribulation period, not before.
The surviving Jews and Christians who have not taken the mark and have accepted Christ are the only mortals that live in the Millennium. Everyone else has either been killed in the Wrath or separated in the Sheep and Goat Judgment.
> Now you make a statement that is closer to the truth. There would be none of these believing mortals if all believers are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period as post-tribulational theory teaches, and this is exactly my point. If all believers are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period, then there would be no believing mortals to enter the kingdom, but there will be .... and the Lord is certainly not going to allow the mortal goats [unbelievers] in. This proves that the gatherings [and associated gathering trumpet] at the end of the tribulation period are not resurrections at all, but gatherings of the mortal survivors of the tribulation period. The gatherings of the Israelite elect and the nations are not resurrections at all. So the question is when will today's church be immortalized [resurrected]? Certainly not at the end of the tribulation period. The answer is .... at the Lord's "harpazo" action before His coming judgment and tribulations begin. There is no other option. The last trumpet, or 3rd woe, is not a resurrection trumpet either , but one of the Lord's judgments [7 vials] against satan's beast and followers. So where is the last "trump" in scripture for the church? You need to study the trumpet voices that are specifically associated with the church. There are three of them.
When the Millennium is over the lost from all ages will be Resurrected in the 2nd Resurrection and stand in their unglorified bodies. Satan will be released to lead them to battle against Jerusalem once again (Gog and Magog returned to life). They are gathered together by Satan from all over the world to fight against the camp of the Saints, but are destroyed by fire from Heaven. They then stand before the Great White Judgment Seat and are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
>Come on! The unbelieving dead are not resurrected at the end of the millennium to follow satan and rebel against the Lord. The scriptures do not state this at all. Once a human dies physically .... that's it. The spirits of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human creation are not resurrected to life in physical bodies again to rebel against the Lord's millennial kingdom, then killed again, then judged, and then burned in the lake of fire. Where do you get this teaching? It will be mortal humans in their physical bodies who live during the millennial kingdom that will rebel. These will be mortal human rebels of the millennial nations. Their spirits will join the all of the other human dead for judgment and then to the lake of fire.
The Saints spend eternity in a new Earth and New Heaven- the city of New Jerusalem.
>This is true
Maybe I can simplify it down to the basics-
It all starts at Midweek when the Antichrist is revealed sitting in the Sanctuary Fortress in Jerusalem. THis is the sign for believing Jews to escape into the wilderness. They are the ones who are alive and remain till Jesus comes, because they are protected by God. The Antichrist requires that everyone take a mark to buy and sell. Anyone who takes it are damned and they live until the Wrath is complete. Anyone who does not accept it are persecuted to death.
>I believe you error here. Not all who refuse the mark will be killed. This is impossible because mortal believers will enter the millennial kingdom. The nations that satan will not be able to deceive during the millennium will be composed of mortals. The immortal church who will also be present at the time will have no need to be kept from satan's deception .... only mortals can be deceived by satan and lose their salvation. Some of the mortals of the millennium will obviously be deceived into rebellion against the Lord when satan is released at the end of the period. The immortals of the church will not do this.
Some may be able to avoid persecution and survive hiding out.
>Now you are saying something different and this is exactly what will happen. It is these believing mortals who will survive the tribulation period and they will enter the millennial kingdom as mortals .... not as resurrected beings. Only the martyred believers of the tribulation will need resurrection and they will be added to the immortal church at the end period. All of these believers, those martyred and those who escape and hide, will be those who become believers during the tribulation period .... Israelite or Gentile.
At the day of Wrath the Jews hiding in the wilderness and any surviving Christians are Raptured just after the dead in Christ are Resurrected.
> If true, there would be no mortal believers to enter the millennial kingdom. This is not true.
They return with Christ at Armageddon to destroy those who took the mark.
>Only the immortal church and those who become believers during the tribulation and are martyred can return with the Lord at Armageddon. No others.
The surviving Jews in Jerusalem accept their Messiah when they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven. They escape the Wrath in the valley that is formed by the splitting of the Mount of Olives.
>This is true and these Israelites are the believers who will enter the millennial kingdom as mortals .... not as resurrected beings. These Israelite mortals will reproduce in the millennial kingdom ..... immortals do not reproduce. So will mortal believers of the Gentile nations do the same.
When Jesus comes He will divide those who survived who didn't take the mark and have accepted Christ from those who survived who didn't take the mark and/or rejected Christ. These are the ones who are at the wedding Feast, but do not have on the Wedding Garments. They are cast out of the Millennium to join those before them.
>No way. The gatherings and separating are of mortals, and none of these are at the wedding feast which takes place in heaven before Armageddon. These gatherings on the earth take place after the days of the tribulation period, not before.
The surviving Jews and Christians who have not taken the mark and have accepted Christ are the only mortals that live in the Millennium. Everyone else has either been killed in the Wrath or separated in the Sheep and Goat Judgment.
> Now you make a statement that is closer to the truth. There would be none of these believing mortals if all believers are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period as post-tribulational theory teaches, and this is exactly my point. If all believers are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period, then there would be no believing mortals to enter the kingdom, but there will be .... and the Lord is certainly not going to allow the mortal goats [unbelievers] in. This proves that the gatherings [and associated gathering trumpet] at the end of the tribulation period are not resurrections at all, but gatherings of the mortal survivors of the tribulation period. The gatherings of the Israelite elect and the nations are not resurrections at all. So the question is when will today's church be immortalized [resurrected]? Certainly not at the end of the tribulation period. The answer is .... at the Lord's "harpazo" action before His coming judgment and tribulations begin. There is no other option. The last trumpet, or 3rd woe, is not a resurrection trumpet either , but one of the Lord's judgments [7 vials] against satan's beast and followers. So where is the last "trump" in scripture for the church? You need to study the trumpet voices that are specifically associated with the church. There are three of them.
When the Millennium is over the lost from all ages will be Resurrected in the 2nd Resurrection and stand in their unglorified bodies. Satan will be released to lead them to battle against Jerusalem once again (Gog and Magog returned to life). They are gathered together by Satan from all over the world to fight against the camp of the Saints, but are destroyed by fire from Heaven. They then stand before the Great White Judgment Seat and are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
>Come on! The unbelieving dead are not resurrected at the end of the millennium to follow satan and rebel against the Lord. The scriptures do not state this at all. Once a human dies physically .... that's it. The spirits of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human creation are not resurrected to life in physical bodies again to rebel against the Lord's millennial kingdom, then killed again, then judged, and then burned in the lake of fire. Where do you get this teaching? It will be mortal humans in their physical bodies who live during the millennial kingdom that will rebel. These will be mortal human rebels of the millennial nations. Their spirits will join the all of the other human dead for judgment and then to the lake of fire.
The Saints spend eternity in a new Earth and New Heaven- the city of New Jerusalem.
>This is true
Orates said:
Maybe I can simplify it down to the basics-
It all starts at Midweek when the Antichrist is revealed sitting in the Sanctuary Fortress in Jerusalem. THis is the sign for believing Jews to escape into the wilderness. They are the ones who are alive and remain till Jesus comes, because they are protected by God. The Antichrist requires that everyone take a mark to buy and sell. Anyone who takes it are damned and they live until the Wrath is complete. Anyone who does not accept it are persecuted to death.
>I believe you error here. Not all who refuse the mark will be killed. This is impossible because mortal believers will enter the millennial kingdom. The nations that satan will not be able to deceive during the millennium will be composed of mortals. The immortal church who will also be present at the time will have no need to be kept from satan's deception .... only immortals can be deceived by satan and lose their salvation. Some of the mortals of the millennium will obviously be deceived into rebellion against the Lord when satan is released at the end of the period. The immortals of the church will not do this.
You must have meant mortals (see bold above) You say that there will be nations of Gentiles who refuse the Mark and enter the Millennium. I believe there will be few survivors if any. And they all have to be believers to be allowed into the Millennium. Are there any nations on earth today where the majority are believers?
Some may be able to avoid persecution and survive hiding out.
>Now you are saying something different and this is exactly what will happen. It is these believing mortals who will survive the tribulation period and they will enter the millennial kingdom as mortals .... not as resurrected beings. Only the martyred believers of the tribulation will need resurrection and they will be added to the immortal church at the end period. All of these believers, those martyred and those who escape and hide, will be those who become believers during the tribulation period .... Israelite or Gentile.
Again I say some (if any). There won't be enough, I believe, to make up the numbers you are talking about. The camp of the Saints in Jerusalem and surrounding regions where mortals will live, will not be worldwide, otherwise they will not be able to come up every year at the feast of tabernacles to worship at the temple to keep the rains coming.
At the day of Wrath the Jews hiding in the wilderness and any surviving Christians are Raptured just after the dead in Christ are Resurrected.
> If true, there would be no mortal believers to enter the millennial kingdom. This is not true.
The mortals who enter the Millennium will be the surviving Jews who convert when they see the Messiah coming on the clouds of Heaven, and any Gentiles who convert at the same time. If any of the survivors had converted earlier, they would have been Raptured. If any of them had taken the mark they would not be able to enter the Millennium.
They return with Christ at Armageddon to destroy those who took the mark.
>Only the immortal church and those who become believers during the tribulation and are martyred can return with the Lord at Armageddon. No others.
"They" are the Resurrected or Raptured Saints- not the mortal survivors.
The surviving Jews in Jerusalem accept their Messiah when they see Him coming in the clouds of heaven. They escape the Wrath in the valley that is formed by the splitting of the Mount of Olives.
>This is true and these Israelites are the believers who will enter the millennial kingdom as mortals .... not as resurrected beings. These Israelite mortals will reproduce in the millennial kingdom ..... immortals do not reproduce. So will mortal believers of the Gentile nations do the same.
I agree, but I don't know if the few (if any) Gentile survivors are in the countries of their origin, or are moved close to Jerusalem They have to be able to come up to worship yearly in Jerusalem and I don't think mucb technology will survive to enable them to travel very far.
When Jesus comes He will divide those who survived who didn't take the mark and have accepted Christ from those who survived who didn't take the mark and/or rejected Christ. These are the ones who are at the wedding Feast, but do not have on the Wedding Garments. They are cast out of the Millennium to join those before them.
>No way. The gatherings and separating are of mortals, and none of these are at the wedding feast which takes place in heaven before Armageddon. These gatherings on the earth take place after the days of the tribulation period, not before.
I believe the wedding feast is on earth at the start of the Millennium. When you believe in a Post Trib Rapture, the only ones who are left to divide are the mortal believers (Jew and Gentile) and unbelievers (those who have taken the mark together with those who didn't).
The surviving Jews and Christians who have not taken the mark and have accepted Christ are the only mortals that live in the Millennium. Everyone else has either been killed in the Wrath or separated in the Sheep and Goat Judgment.
> Now you make a statement that is closer to the truth. There would be none of these believing mortals if all believers are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period as post-tribulational theory teaches, and this is exactly my point. If all believers are resurrected at the end of the tribulation period, then there would be no believing mortals to enter the kingdom, but there will be .... and the Lord is certainly not going to allow the mortal goats [unbelievers] in. This proves that the gatherings [and associated gathering trumpet] at the end of the tribulation period are not resurrections at all, but gatherings of the mortal survivors of the tribulation period. The gatherings of the Israelite elect and the nations are not resurrections at all. So the question is when will today's church be immortalized [resurrected]? Certainly not at the end of the tribulation period. The answer is .... at the Lord's "harpazo" action before His coming judgment and tribulations begin. There is no other option. The last trumpet, or 3rd woe, is not a resurrection trumpet either , but one of the Lord's judgments [7 vials] against satan's beast and followers. So where is the last "trump" in scripture for the church? You need to study the trumpet voices that are specifically associated with the church. There are three of them.
There are mortals left alive between the Pre-day of Wrath Rapture/Resurrection and Jesus 2nd Coming. They are the Jews (and Gentiles) who convert when they see their Messiah coming in the clouds of Heaven.
When the Millennium is over the lost from all ages will be Resurrected in the 2nd Resurrection and stand in their unglorified bodies. Satan will be released to lead them to battle against Jerusalem once again (Gog and Magog returned to life). They are gathered together by Satan from all over the world to fight against the camp of the Saints, but are destroyed by fire from Heaven. They then stand before the Great White Judgment Seat and are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
>Come on! The unbelieving dead are not resurrected at the end of the millennium to follow satan and rebel against the Lord. The scriptures do not state this at all. Once a human dies physically .... that's it. The spirits of the unbelieving dead from the beginning of human creation are not resurrected to life in physical bodies again to rebel against the Lord's millennial kingdom, then killed again, then judged, and then burned in the lake of fire. Where do you get this teaching? It