I've always found this on my own to be an interesting subject and have not delved too deeply into it as far as searching out Biblical reference for it.


This is assuming said person dies without Jesus. Would someone that let's say was decent (whatever that means) and didn't kill people or rape people or commit horrific crimes be in less of a hell as far as torment goes than someone that did all those things?

Being separated from God for eternity is in itself horrible enough, but would say Hitler or Judas or
Stalin be in a deeper well of torment than John Q. Public, or does the a sin is a sin is a sin apply here?

Be curious as to Biblical reference and/or opinions on this.


...On a side note, being an avid reader, the only reference I would hold on this would be Dante's Inferno, which of course, is more catholic based. Dante's Purgatorio for example.



I would also ask the same question for Heaven? Are there levels of Heaven. I would lean more toward thinking that there would be levels in hell as opposed to Heaven.

Hmm i dont think there is levels in hell and in heaven. It depends what the person has done. Only God knows about it. I heard Judas is in 7 level of hell. I would like to ask how would a mortal humans know about it.

I did a search in google.

====levels in heaven====

http://www.gotquestions.org/levels-heaven.html
http://www.concernedchristians.org/nocomparison_heaven1.php

Long list

====levels in hell====

This is what i got

http://mookieriffic.mu.nu/archives/010441.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_Levels_of_Hell

Long list

[quote=Shaun333,Apr 16 2006, 04:13 PM]
I've always found this on my own to be an interesting subject and have not delved too deeply into it as far as searching out Biblical reference for it.


This is assuming said person dies without Jesus. Would someone that let's say was decent (whatever that means) and didn't kill people or rape people or commit horrific crimes be in less of a hell as far as torment goes than someone that did all those things?

Being separated from God for eternity is in itself horrible enough, but would say Hitler or Judas or
Stalin be in a deeper well of torment than John Q. Public, or does the a sin is a sin is a sin apply here?

Be curious as to Biblical reference and/or opinions on this.


...On a side note, being an avid reader, the only reference I would hold on this would be Dante's Inferno, which of course, is more catholic based. Dante's Purgatorio for example.



I would also ask the same question for Heaven? Are there levels of Heaven. I would lean more toward thinking that there would be levels in hell as opposed to Heaven.
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There are levels of heaven so I would expect that there are levels of hell...

Shaun this is a question of which I believe holds merit. The Bible talks about a third heaven.....

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

about the first heaven....

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

If there is a first heaven and a third heaven mentioned in the Bible there must also be a second heaven. To me that would be the space between the first and third heavens.


Scripture on hell

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=hell&section=0&translation=kjv&oq=the%2520firey%2520furnace&new=1&sr=1

Lake of fire

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=Lake+of+fire&section=0&translation=kjv&sr=1&l=en&enter=Search

[quote=onetiggerroo,Apr 17 2006, 04:23 AM]
Shaun this is a question of which I believe holds merit. The Bible talks about a third heaven.....

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

about the first heaven....

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

If there is a first heaven and a third heaven mentioned in the Bible there must also be a second heaven. To me that would be the space between the first and third heavens.


Scripture on hell

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=hell&section=0&translation=kjv&oq=the%2520firey%2520furnace&new=1&sr=1

Lake of fire

http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=Lake+of+fire&section=0&translation=kjv&sr=1&l=en&enter=Search
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. So it is there. WOW.

The Bible speaks of the rewards that we will receive. Some will receive more than others there is no doubt. So likewise I feel that a persons deeds will be awarded the same in Hell. I do feel that especially in the 1000 year reign there seems to be scripture that say we are going to rule and reign with Christ. Who is going to rule? It has the implications that there will be those there who will have authority over someone. I have just always assumed there would be different degrees in Heaven and Hell.
I quess will see when we get there. I am just thankful I get to be there. (Heaven that is).

Your Friend In Christ,
Valerie

Messiahiscoming

I believe there is Rabbinic teaching that the lowest level of hell is Genhinnom (did I spell that right) which means "[B]silence[/B]".

In that I believe pope John Paul II to be the beast of Revelation, and one of many, his church in Krakow Poland is called ... "[B]The Church of Silence[/B]".

[quote=calvin,Apr 18 2006, 07:58 PM]
I believe there is Rabbinic teaching that the lowest level of hell is Genhinnom (did I spell that right) which means "[B]silence[/B]". In that I believe pope John Paul II to be the beast of Revelation, and one of many, his church in Krakow Poland is called ... "[B]The Church of Silence[/B]".
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I believe Pope John Paul II has been dead for about a year now................wow
this kind of fable telling about "Church of Silence", and "Latin Church" is getting hillarious.... if it weren't on such a serious subject.

[quote=calvin,Apr 18 2006, 06:58 PM]
I believe there is Rabbinic teaching that the lowest level of hell is Genhinnom (did I spell that right) which means "[B]silence[/B]".

In that I believe pope John Paul II to be the beast of Revelation, and one of many, his church in Krakow Poland is called ... "[B]The Church of Silence[/B]".
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It would be most accurately reported that the great world church known as the Catholic (whose very name means "universal") will be influenced to appropriate the heresies of the antichrist and his false prophet and will conjoin with them to make the decrees of Satan come forth as he initiates his plan to overcome the world, and in so doing to overcome God. I am sure CNN will have a reporter on the scene when that happens. Likely the two witnesses will be NBC and CBS (Joking)

Hell is the grave. I don't think you can get any deader than dead. This teaching (about purgatory, levels of hell, etc.) is so old and everyone believes it because this is what they are taught down through the ages. Many of the false teachings came from PHILOSOPHERS like Plato, Origin, etc. My advice is to read the Bible for YOURSELF and study to show yourself approved.

We DEAD will be resurrected at the Second Coming and where we will reign is right here on the NEW EARTH that the Lord sets up for his Kingdom. I truly do not believe we are going anywhere NEAR Heaven, but Heaven will be HERE on EARTH.

Search the Scriptures,
precept upon precept.

Study and never stop. Allow the Holy Spirit to show you the meaning and reveal the Truth!

[quote=lifeinhim61,Apr 19 2006, 08:27 AM]
Hell is the grave. I don't think you can get any deader than dead. This teaching (about purgatory, levels of hell, etc.) is so old and everyone believes it because this is what they are taught down through the ages. Many of the false teachings came from PHILOSOPHERS like Plato, Origin, etc. My advice is to read the Bible for YOURSELF and study to show yourself approved.

We DEAD will be resurrected at the Second Coming and where we will reign is right here on the NEW EARTH that the Lord sets up for his Kingdom. I truly do not believe we are going anywhere NEAR Heaven, but Heaven will be HERE on EARTH.

Search the Scriptures,
precept upon precept.

Study and never stop. Allow the Holy Spirit to show you the meaning and reveal the Truth!
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Actually lifeinhim, the teaching on "purgatory" didn't start with philosophers, i know you didn't say that with any malice, but its not true, its being part of Jewish teaching for a while, even though they never call it purgartory. Orthodox Jew, Catholic church, and Eastern Orthodox Churches teach similar things, the difference being the name that is designated. Even to this day, Orthodox Jews pray the Mourner's Kaddish (for 11 months) for the purification of a dead family member. Anyhow there is more on it from other sources

and btw, Plato and other philosophers, believed in pagan gods, and afterlife to them was probably, joining the stars and becoming gods themselves.
http://www.wku.edu/~jan.garrett/pgodscht.htm
nothing about purification, i'm not sure who Origines is, this is first time i ever heard of him

[quote=Maz,Apr 19 2006, 08:23 AM]
It would be most accurately reported that the great world church known as the Catholic (whose very name means "universal") will be influenced to appropriate the heresies of the antichrist and his false prophet and will conjoin with them to make the decrees of Satan come forth as he initiates his plan to overcome the world, and in so doing to overcome God. I am sure CNN will have a reporter on the scene when that happens. Likely the two witnesses will be NBC and CBS (Joking)
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Koppted... sorry, the tags aren't working, but I bolded Plato and Origen (sorry, spelled his name wrong in the post above). This is what I found while studying about the Immortal Soul.



Several times we have mentioned the words immortal soul, but the phrase is found nowhere in the Bible. Where did the idea of an immortal soul originate?

The concept of the soul's supposed immortality was first taught in ancient Egypt and Babylon. "The belief that the soul continues in existence after the dissolution of the body is ... speculation ... nowhere expressly taught in Holy Scripture ... The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended" (Jewish Encyclopedia, 1941, Vol. VI, "Immortality of the Soul," pp. 564, 566).

Plato (428-348 B.C.), the Greek philosopher and student of Socrates, taught that the body and the immortal soul separate at death. The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia comments on ancient Israel's view of the soul: "... We are influenced always more or less by the Greek, Platonic idea that the body dies, yet the soul is immortal. Such an idea is utterly contrary to the Israelite consciousness and is nowhere found in the Old Testament" (1960, Vol. 2, p. 812, "Death").

Early Christianity was influenced by Greek philosophies even as the gospel of Christ was preached to the Greek and Roman world. By A.D. 200 the doctrine of the immortality of the soul became a controversy among those holding the Christian belief.

The Evangelical Dictionary of Theology notes that Origen, an early and influential church theologian, was influenced by Greek thinkers: "Speculation about the soul in the subapostolic church was heavily influenced by Greek philosophy. This is seen in Origen's acceptance of Plato's doctrine
of the preexistence of the soul as pure mind (nous) originally, which, by reason of its fall from God, cooled down to soul (psyche) when it lost its participation in the divine fire by looking earthward" (1992, p. 1037, "Soul").

Secular history reveals that the concept of the immortality of the soul is an ancient belief embraced by many pagan religions. But it is not a biblical or apostolic teaching.

There is idea of purification expressly taught in scriptures, Matt 12:32 tells us of the sinner who "will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the next." meaning that some people are still going to be forgiven for the sins which they didnt repent of in this age. "In the Next" here is from the Greek “en to mellonti” which means in the afterlife [check Matt 10:30]

St. Paul gives us a Hint of How this will be done in 1 Cor. 3:14-15
"If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire"

Here is a qoute from enclyopedia judaica
"“The Bosom of Abraham was the first level of hell” (Encyclopedia Judaica, Vol. 2, p. 165)."
This makes the story of Lazarus and the rich man even more clear. Luke 16:19-31

Jews didn't borrow anything from pagan influences, nor do christian, quite the opposite, as Athol Bloomer (a jewish convert) points out :

"Abraham and the patriarchs had access to the writings of Enoch. I believe that the books of Enoch are edited versions of the oldest surviving literature of man and its influence is seen in both the Old and New Testaments. It has also influenced other ancient Jewish writings as well as the ancient Egyptian texts and religion. The whole mystery of the Pyramids is connected with these Enochian mysteries. Within the ancient religious cults of Mesapotamia and Egypt elements of the Divine revelation were concealed and hidden among many false concepts and ideas. They had a confused knowledge of the coming of the Divine Seed of God and the writings of Enoch were the pure form that the Mesopotamian and Egyptian cults distorted. The Church Fathers taught that elements of the Divine Revelation were concealed in the ancient pagan religions and these seeds of the gospel were a preparation for the full revelation in Jesus Christ. Satan however has sought to conceal these truths by mixing in his own elements in order to lead mankind astray from the truth. The Norse Mythology, also like the Bible and the Jewish mystical tradition, had the concept of the cosmic Tree and the whole of the Norse Mythology is a corruption of the religion of the northern Israelites. In fact the mythological religions of the Norse, Celts, Greeks and Egyptians show a substratum of the Hebrew religion and a distorted version of the Kabbalah."

Btw the book of Enoch is qouted in Jude, and the Extant (current) versions are corrupted version that are used for occult rituals, so you see, its the other way around. I have another article i might post on the levels of "hell" so to speak, perhaps i will post it here later

Plus the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology is not exactly the most objective source

Thanks Koppted, I appreciate your comments.

[quote=lifeinhim61,Apr 19 2006, 06:28 PM]
Thanks Koppted, I appreciate your comments.
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Thanks i appreciate yours as well,

I was going to add that, even if we don't take Bloomer's word, we can be rest assured that the teaching of Jewish authorities were correct, because, even though Jesus rebuked them, he recognized that their teachings were legitimate,

Matt 23:2:
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."____Matt 23:2.

If they were Pagan "influences" in Judaism at that time, he would have at least cautioned them. but as we all know, the main problem for the Jewish People at that time as Luke 19:41-44 tells us is that they had "failed to recognize the time of their visitation"

Hope this helps...

God Bless

Yes, much so! Thanks for taking the time to find the info and comment. I appreciate it!

Some great responses.

I've always been curious about this subject. Great links from people as well.

This is the calmer version of the eternal condemnation thread, lol.

[quote=lifeinhim61,Apr 19 2006, 08:25 PM]
Yes, much so! Thanks for taking the time to find the info and comment. I appreciate it!
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No probs

There are four levels of Hell The first is Sheol the second is Hades the third is Gehenna and the forth is Tartaroo. If you go into Sheol you have gone into the Hebrew grave. If you go into Hades you have gone into the Greek grave. If you go into Gehenna you have found yourself on the wrong side and will go into the valley of slaughter at Christ’s return and if you go into Tartaroo you have gone into the bottomless pit. Of course since you will be dead it won't matter much to you which one you are in.

There are also three Levels of Heaven Past, Present, and Future


Charlie

Koppted said: I believe Pope John Paul II has been dead for about a year now ... wow. This kind of FABLE about "Church of Silence", and "Latin Church" is getting HILLARIOUS ... if it weren't on such a serious subject.

"Fable"? ... check it out. "Latin Church" ... not from me ??

As for Pope John Paul II being dead for a year, I guess you are inferring that he couldn't possibly be the beast of Revelation.

Tell that to the Reformation saints and martyrs about the papacy if you ever meet them. Many of them were burnt alive at the stake, some mercifully strangled prior to the faggots being lit. They went to their death claiming that the papacy was the fulfillment of 2 Thess 2.

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The "VICAR" of Christ ... in place of Christ ... instead of Christ ... vicarious.

There are millions (I believe most RC's) that believe Nero was the beast of Revelation ... like John Paul, he's been dead for a little while now also. You may even be one of those who believes that Nero was the numbered beast of Revelation.

The Church of Rome claims that it never changes.

The early Catholic "fathers" at the Synods of Rome and at the Synod of Hieria in 753 and the Council of Nicea in 787 denounced the veneration of images and icons as a practise contravening the second commandment.

The Council of Nicea ratified earlier doctrine that absolute worship could only be addressed to God alone - that the veneration of sacred objects including images and pictorial representations of Christ was of a relative character - the honour attributed to them passing over to the divine reality they symbolized.

AS FOR ICONS OF MARY, THE SYNOD ORDERED THEY BE DESTROYED AS INSTRUMENTS OF IDOLATRY.

Methinks Rome has made a little change here.

John Paull II honoured a god (or goddess) that the early fathers did not. He made a trip to Lourdes ... "to thank MARY for saving his life."

The cornerstone of John Paul's United Nations address was a plea for the supremacy of the individual. He was a pure ecumenist for ALL FAITHS, and a fundamental humanist.

John of Patmos says he "speaks great things and blasphemies". JP II's comments in his acceptance speech and later at his inauguration mass emphasized "MARY" and "MAN".

He said: "I accept - in a spirit of obedience to the Lord and total faithfulness to Mary our "most Holy Mother" - I invite you to join me in professing our FAITH, our HOPE and our fidelity TO MARY, the Mother of Christ and of the Church."

Habakkuk describes the Antichrist as a proud man who transgresseths by WINE ... this would be the "miracle" she claims when the priest miraculously turns wine into the literal blood of Jesus.

This surpasses our Lord, who only turned water to wine.

Habakkuk goes on to say that the Antichrist DOES NOT STAY AT HOME but enlarges his desire as hell and is as death and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him ALL nations and heapeth unto him ALL people.
"catholic" means ... universal.

John Paul II was the most travelled pope in the history of that church, he surely did not STAY AT HOME, and the whole world followed after him.

Former president Jimmy Carter stated "God blessed America by sending you to us."

In Chicago they serenaded him with "He's Got The Whole World In His Hands" ... is that blasphemy or what ?

Billy Graham stated: "He's the most respected religious leader in the world today."

HE WENT FORTH CONQUERING AND TO CONQUER - AND ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST.

Our Lord Jesus lived for 33 years - died - then resurrected to eternal life.
Pope John Paul lived for 33 days - died - then Satan "revived" John Paul.

The "head" died and yet came back to life ... ie the second John Paul.

This was the first time in the history of that church wherein a pope chose a "DOUBLE NAME" ... and a second one immediately chose the same name!

This should have been a sign to students of prophecy.

He is Antichrist, the beast of Revelation... Satan's masterpiece of DECEPTION has duped kings, queens and world political and religious leaders to give praise to his greatness. Rome's Vatican City is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth, and the light of a candle shall no more shine at all in thee. Rev 17:18, 18:23.

When you see God's utter destruction of this great city and its everburning WITNESS to the world, perhaps then you will believe ... come out of her.

Scripture tells us that Jesus was "numbered" with the transgressors.
A=1 ... Z=26

JESUS = 74
LUCIFER = 74

JESUS CHRIST = 151
POPE JOHN PAUL II = 151

A puff of white smoke rose from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel and the world of Roman Catholicism rejoiced. The Church of Peter was no longer without its "rock".

The Vatican had successfully caused an "image" to be made of the "head that died". the previous "head" (Albino Luciani) had reigned for 33 days and died as Pope John Paul.

The wisp of white smoke indicated that the required 66.6 percent of the 111 Cardinals present had voted to select its "image of Peter". shortly after, Cardinal Pericle Felici announced:

"Habemus Papen" ... We have a pope ... "Qui sibi nomen imposuit JOANNES PAULUS SECUNDUS".

He has chosen the name JOHN PAUL SECOND.

On October 16, 1978 history was made and prophecy fulfilled. At 6:44 pm

KAROL CARDINAL WOJTYLA ARCHBISHOP OF KRAKOW

became ... POPE JOHN PAUL THE SECOND

57 = KAROL
62 = CARDINAL
106 = WOJTYLA
99 = ARCHBISHOP
21 = OF
79 = KRAKOW

52 = POPE
47 = JOHN
50 = PAUL
33 = THE
60 = SECOND
666

The first John Paul died by a mortal wound.
The second John Paul came to life and the whole world followed after the BEAST ... the PRIMATE of Rome.

And who is the false prophet that creates this "image" that has eyes and a mouth?

It is the VATICAN. The word "vatic" means ... "prophet"

VATIC = PROPHET = VATICAN = FALSE PROPHET

And where is the mark located? On the right hand and forehead. It is Romanism's "sign of the cross" ... always made with the right hand and placed upon the forehead of its infants at baptism, and placed upon the forehead of the adult followers of the beast on Ash Wednesdays.

The 144 thousand with the unusual "new song" IMMEDIATELY follow after the numbering of the beast. Rev 14

144 = BEAST IMAGE AND MARK
144 = MARK OF THE BEAST
144 = THE BRAND OF ROME
144 = PETER THE BEAST
144 = PETER'S CHURCH
144 = SIGN OF CROSS

ccc

There must be at least 2 levels of hell, Because I have already been through ONE> Here on earth!!!!!

Responding to Calvins Post:


My point about latin church, was not about whether or not there is a latin origin, my points were about fables told in relation to it. Same thing with "Church of Silence" even though i doubt that thats what Krakow means, the point remains the same, about fables being told.

One such fable you just posted, is that John Paul I was raised after 33 days to become John Paul II, and it somehow correspond to the years of Christ on earth. This is actually more than just a Fable, it actually borders on a spiritual conspiracy theory. I think even most people here would agree that this part of your post is by far the silliest. However, if you need more Fables to feed on, you can go to "Elijah the Tishbite" and his website at http://two-olive-trees.org/frames.html it chock-full of prophecies that will itch your ear, and help you confirm, maintain and preach those things that they contain.

You also have your facts wrong on what the Council of Nicea did in 787, they did quite the opposite of what you said. On the Synods in 753, I suggest you [if you are interested in learning] go and read about it, instead repeating stuff that you heard. I won't go into great detail here, but let me tell you that Patriarchs of Antioch, Jerusalem and Alexandria, Bishop of Rome (I.E the Pope) did not attend.

Methinks that you got your fact a little wrong here.
Acts 19:12 might also help you in this regard.

On the issue of Mary, I think many people have probably told you that she is not worshipped, but you probably don't want to listen either, So to avoid your blaspheming yourself into oblivion, i will not even talk about the subject, except to tell you to read Exodus 20:12 and ponder it. There are also more scripture on the subject, but start with that..

You implied that he Speaks blasphemies, but you don't even tell us what those blasphemies are, not to mention you don't even know what or who the passage in revelations, is talking about. Compounded by the fact that John Paul II has been dead for about a year. unless you want to introduce a new Fable into the this conspiracy. I can help you with one, "Pope Benedict XVI was raised by the devil, from the previous 15 Benedicts, and all those 15 are the same person, and they speak great blasphemies"<<I hope this helps


You also quoted Habakkuk out of context,an ascribed a ludicrous meaning to the passage. Which means that that both the meaning of the passage in Habakkuk, and the Last Supper, are lost on you.

You also went into more tortured logic about a Pope having a double name. Saying: "this should be a sign to students of prophecy" i am sure its an ominous sign. The fact that the current Pope reverted to using only one Name right now is probably a mysterious Omen as well.

You also did not understand Isaiah 53:12 / Mark 15:28 , which you think is referring to literal numbers, it might actually help you read those verses in context, instead of trying to calculate fablulous numbers.

Let me see if i can help you with some more fables via numbers

Calvin = has only 6 letters and the Calvin cycle deals with the formation of SIX-carbon sugar C6 H12 O6

I guess this should be a SIGN to students of Prophecy

CALVIN = 61

VANCOUVER BC = VANCOUVER X BC = 121 X 5 = 605

CALVIN + VANCOUVER BC = 605 + 61 = 666


Interestingly BC is in western CANADA,= WESTERN VANCOUVER = WV
CALVIN, WV Zip code(s): 26660


LAST NUMBERS FOR YOU, I AlSo know via Fables, that the Mark of the Beast will come from Vancouver BC

Let us look at, A PROPHECY SIGN STUDENT OF CANADA, A VANCOUVER BC MARK


192 = CALVIN THE IGNORANT
304 = A PROPHECY SIGN STUDENT OF CANADA
170 = A VANCOUVER BC MARK

192 + 304 + 170 = 666

Here is the Catechism of the Church on the subject, if you are interested:


675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers. The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.

676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgment. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism, especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.

677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection. The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.5God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgment after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580

No thanks koppted...not interested in the WORD OF MAN....

Here is something else in the Catechism if YOU'RE interested:

[quote]

[B]"For the Son of God became man so that we might become God."[/B]
~Official Catholic Doctrine from the Catechism of the Catholic Church

[/quote]

Please also see:

*Ignatius Press P116
*St. Athanasius De Inc, 54 pg 25,195
*St. Thomas Aquainas, Pouse 57:1-4
**St. Irenaeus, Adv Haeres 3,19,1: pg7/1,939

Man....so many numbers here!!

Hmmm..odd.

@Marta, where've you been, i missed that feistiness, glad to see you are back

You best be interested

On the numbers, i was just trying to let Calvin know that anybody can manipulate numbers, make someone out to be the beast. If you play with letters and numbers long enough Just about anybody will fit. I was just letting him know the fallacy of that argument

Words of Man? There is nothing wrong with the words of man, for one thing God became man, secondly the people who penned the NT were Men, and paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 tell us to "stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

On the Issue about becoming like gods, i think the problem might be translations here, It is just echoing the same sentence in John 1:12
"But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name."

Judging from some of Koppted's comments, I believe the truth may have struck a nerve ... might we have a Jesuit operative among us ?

This Orders training is to twist, distort and deny evidence that would be harmful to the papacy and "Mother Church".

Because of it's subversive activities, the Jesuits were banished from Portugal in 1834, Spain in 1835, Switzerland in 1848, Germany in 1872 and France in 1880 and again in 1901.

"In the United States", wrote M. Fulop-Miller, "the Company had deployed a systematic and fruitful activity for a long time, as she is not hindered by any laws ... "I am not happy about the rebirth of the Jesuits", wrote the former president of the John Adams Union to his successor Thomas Jefferson, in 1816. "Swarms of them will present themselves under more disguises ever taken by even a chief of the Bohemians, as printers, writers, publishers, school teachers, etc.. If ever an association of people deserved eternal damnation, on this earth and in hell, it is the Society of Loyola. Yet, with our system of religious liberty, we can but offer them a refuge ... " And Jefferson answered his predecessor; "Like you, I object to the Jesuits' reestablishment which makes light give way to darkness."

Point 1. Like the serpent in the garden, Koppted twisted my words to say that I made the statement that Krakow means "silence". The TRUE statement made was ... his church in Krakow Poland is called the "Church of Silence", This was reported in a Catholic article shortly after he (JP II) became pope. Why would anyone wish to create a fable out of a simple stlatement like that ?


Point 2. Another twist of my words was where he said "One such fable you (calvin) just posted, is that John Paul I was raised after 33 days to become John Paul II ... "

This is what Koppted would like you to believe I said. The TRUE statement made was "... then Satan "revived" John Paul." Perhaps he did not notice the quotation marks. Satan [B]revived the name [/B]not the person. This is one of Koppted's silliest comments.

Koppted went on to say "... However, if you (calvin) need more fables to feed on, you can go to "Elijah the Tishbite" and his website ... "

IF I WERE LOOKING FOR "FABLES", I WOULD GO NO FURTHER THAN TO THE CHURCH OF ROME AND THE THOUSANDS OF ITS SO-CALLED "MIRACLES".

And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought MIRACLES before him, with which he DECEIVED them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image ..... Rev 19:20.

Who has not heard the FABLES of "winking" Madonnas, "weeping" images and miracles and cures wrought through the power of "sacred relics" and the bones of dead saints?

Even raising of the dead has been claimed ... Augustine's City of God.

According to THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA, Volume 7 page 492, the wafer host "has been the object of a great many miracles including, the bread being turned to stone and wafer hosts which have bled and continued to bleed."

AND WHO "AUTHENTICATES" THESE AMAZING MIRACLES? The Vatican does!

Talk about the fox guarding the hen house. Using Koppted"s comment, this is absolutely hilarious if it were not such a serious subject.

The Vatican has AUTHENTICATED that Mary's house was transported by angels from Nazareth to the town of Tersato in Illyria in 1291 and then three years later, again carried by angels to Loreto. This "Holy House" of Loreto has been numbered among the most famous shrines of Italy. "It is here that most holy Mary, Mother of God, was born; here, that she was saluted by the angel; here that the eternal Word was made Flesh. Angels conveyed this house from Palestine to the town Tersato in Illyria in the year of salvation 1291 in the pontificate of Nicholas IV ... that the traditions thus boldly proclaimed to the world have been FULLY SACNTIONED BY THE HOLY SEE cannot for a moment remain in doubt. More than forty seven popes have in various ways rendered honour to the shrine, and an immense number of Bulls and Briefs proclaim without qualification the identity of the Santa Casa di Loreto with the Holy House of Nazareth." this from THE CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPAEDIA, vol 13, page26.

And Protestants are supposed to believe tales and interpretations of Roman Catholics like Koppted? ... give us a break !

When it is realized that the False Prophet is [B]NOT[/B] a lone individual doing mighty "miracles" but rather a powerful sovereign religious and political state exercising worldwide control over many kings of the earth, then Revelation's descriptive verses become logical and intellectually understandable.

As noted in a previous post ... "vatic" means ... "prophet".

VATIC = PROPHET = VATICAN = FALSE PROPHET

Recommend reading relative to the Vatican's visible and secret involvement in the affairs of this world would be:

"The Vatican Moscow Washington Alliance" and
"The Vatican In World Politics" ... both by Avro Manhattan.

Yes, the "Papal Peter" is the IMAGE of the beast that dies and yet comes back to life. when another one is elected. When pope Paul VI addressed the United Nations he said: "Do you know who I am? My name is Peter."

Regarding blasphemy, Koppted likely believes that when JP II said to join him in professing our faith and hope TO MARY, this would not be blasphemous ... tell that to the Reformation saints and martyrs.

I noted in an earlier post that on JP II's appearance in Chicago, the deceived faithful serenaded him with "He's Got The Whole World In His Hands". Did his church attempt to stop this adulation?

If that blasphemous display was made at a Billy Graham rally, heads would roll.

Point 3. Regarding the veneration of Mary, he suggested I read Exodus 20:12.

Fortunately Protestants and Jews know what the second commandment says about making graven images. But your church claims it is ok to have images of Mary ... your twisted logic attempts to exeronate your church from this practise ... so you point me to verse 12, honour your father and [B]mother[/B] !

How very convenient ... I'm sure Rome's faithful believe this "interpretaion" because John Paul II staed that Mary is the mother of Christ AND OF THE CHURCH.

Are you going to tell us that the "Inquisition" was a fable also? I suggest you hold on to Rome's interpretation that Nero was the numbered beast of Rev 13:18, because if you don't, you may have to consider the claim of the Reformation and the Protestant Westminster Confession of Faith article 25 - 6 which states:

[B]There is no other head of the Church, but the Lord Jesus Christ; nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof, but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalteth himself, in the church against Christ and all that is called God.[/B]

I see that you like to play childish games with numbers.

It is clear that you are not aware of the spiritual significance of God's use of [B]144[/B] or why He placed [B]153 [/B]fish in the net ... and guess who did the "counting" of those fish? ... why "Peter", the representative of the future papacy, WHO'S VERY NAME (peter) IMPLIES TO COUNT OR CALCULATE.
Small stones were used for that purpose. Read John 21.

Here is wisdom, Let he who hath understanding count the number ...
Those without understanding would be wasting their time.

You may remember my words (and warning to "come out of her") when you see God utterly destroy that great city Mystery Babylon ... ie your beloved Vatican City.

This destruction will be an ever burning witness to the world of the power of God and of His prophecy. Rev 13:18.

Amen.

Regarding “hell,” the ancient Babylonian and Assyrian have been identified mostly as the ancient peoples whose religious beliefs of a “nether world…place of horrors” gave birth to this fallacy. The ancient Egyptian added to this with a “fiery aspect.” Buddhism, in time, evolved a concept of “hot and cold hells.” More importantly, modern translators of the Bible have nurtured this doctrine by not rendering an accurate translations of the Hebrew word “Sheol” (she’ohl’) and the Greek word “Hades” (hai’des) and “Gehenna” (ge’en na); and, within the various editions of the Bible; these same translators are not even consistent in their different applications in the various context of the scriptures. The correct translations are the common grave or pit.-Job 17:16; 34:15; Psalms 146:4; Ecclesiastes 3:20; Isaiah 14:11


I availible for further comments. You may email me directly at-mlabuda51@verizon.net

amen mark51

The wages of sin is death not eternal life in hell.









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