One differance i do know for certain is between our depth of our emotional capacity. if i use sound to describe the differance it is this the male is like a whistle but the female is like a good wine glass when it is rubbed on the lip its sound is like a rich resounding + reverberating full bodied and bell like song

[quote name='gary steed' date='Apr 15 2006, 08:28 AM' post='54036']
One differance i do know for certain is between our depth of our emotional capacity. if i use sound to describe the differance it is this the male is like a whistle but the female is like a good wine glass when it is rubbed on the lip its sound is like a rich resounding + reverberating full bodied and bell like song
[/quote]

*The function of the female is diferrent than that of the male.
*We are not talking pyhsical function all the time; spiritual function allows for the effecient union of two that they may no longer be in an urgent race to be separatly passionate towards another; likewise these two that have become ONE are able to direct common energies toward a common focus in spiritual dimensions.

Shalom
remmie

For those who have asked the Lord for His Spirit and received His Spirit there is no difference. Once you give up the flesh and the Spirit of man it no longer matters which body you posses.


26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.



Charlie

14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

That is saying 'Do not provide for the flesh.'

apples and oranges, dude...

Humble Bob said...

[quote]apples and oranges, dude...[/quote


Yeah, but we make a mean fruit salad brother!


I believe men and women are two halves of a greater whole. The greater whole is the refected image of God. (not to say you must have a mate to be whole). We balance each other when properly matched by our father. Passion vs. Logic.......Love vs. Desires of the Flesh....Emotional vs. Mechanical....


And the beauty of it all is that when biblical principles are applied, the balance in the middle will allow us to co-habitate, and heck maybe even enjoy each other

God has a sense of humor

Men and women have differences, many of which we are told to deny in today's world. These differences are so that male and female may compliment one another. Men's traits lay the foundations while women's traits are designed to support said foundations. Example: The male has the physical strength and mind skewed toward raw, object-oriented logic so that he can accomplish utilitarian tasks such as hunting for food, designing tools or building shelters. The femele has the upper hand when it comes to social aptitude and her mind is skewed toward "softer" forms of reasoning. This allows her to better raise and relate to the children and also makes her a better candidate for maintaining order in the community, thanks to her greater general diplomatic ability than her male counterpart. Radical feminism teaches us to deny those differences and as a consequence, many modern women attempt to behave as men, abandoning that which is natural for them, which I believe results in some of the neurotic behavior and clinical personality disorders we see in so many of them today.

IMO, females tend to much more sensitive spiritually than males... most men has an extremely thick soul which suffocates their spirit... females are usually just the opposite!

Caneman

emotion -logic
precieve - see
work through a solotion- think through a solution
Talk through a poblem - think speak when problem is solved
Nurture- protect
Exhort - correct
orchastrate - direct
darn near bi polar - hard to show emotion
made from bone - made from clay
follows belief - belief follows
slow cooker - hot burner


To name a few
bananna

[quote name='Bananna' date='Nov 21 2006, 03:23 PM' post='92757']
emotion -logic
precieve - see
work through a solotion- think through a solution
Talk through a poblem - think speak when problem is solved
Nurture- protect
Exhort - correct
orchastrate - direct
darn near bi polar - hard to show emotion
made from bone - made from clay
follows belief - belief follows
slow cooker - hot burner


To name a few
bananna
[/quote]

Good one, Banana.

[quote name='Caneman' date='Nov 21 2006, 02:13 PM' post='92756']
IMO, females tend to much more sensitive spiritually than males... most men has an extremely thick soul which suffocates their spirit... females are usually just the opposite!

Caneman
[/quote]


I can't see this one at all (maybe I am too thick ) Do you care to elaborate on this.

God Bless,
Kansas Dad

Hi Gary Steed:

I read the entire thread down to Page 3 and did not even find anyone using a single verse of Scripture. Please allow me to present a case from God’s Word that shows men and women very much NOT equal by any stretch of the imagination. You wrote:

============
Quote >> Gary >> “Difference Between Male + Female” One difference I do know for certain is between our depth of our emotional capacity. if I use sound to describe the difference it is this the male is like a whistle but the female is like a good wine glass when it is rubbed on the lip its sound is like a rich resounding + reverberating full bodied and bell like song.
============

God has given us His Living Word, so that emotionalism and characterizations can be replaced with ‘sound doctrine’ (1Tim. 4:6, 2Tim. 4:3, Titus 1:9, etc.). Many of you must prepare yourselves to accept the truth on one of the least favorite Bible topics of all. The Apostle Paul kicks things off by taking us all the way back to the garden with Adam and Eve, saying,

============
“A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I DO NOT allow a woman to teach OR exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT ADAM who was deceived, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.
============

Any ‘equality’ teaching between man and woman is thrown from the train right here in 1Timothy 2, because women are told to ‘quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness’ saying “the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” Where does Scripture even things out by saying “But I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman.”??? No place! The Scriptural reasoning behind these commands finds Paul and other Bible writers beating the same drum to the same ‘inequality’ song.

============
“You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with SOMEONE WEAKER, since she is A WOMAN; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.” 1Peter 3:7.
============

Many fail to realize that woman was taken from the side of man to be his “helper” (Genesis 2:18-20) even BEFORE she fell into transgression! Man did NOT “lord” over the woman in the garden, but she was the very extension and ‘right hand’ like a helper bringing everything to the tradesman building his dream home. However, the 50/50 mason/helper relationship came to an end in the day she fell into transgression, which finds the Lord God taking away from her ‘helper’ status:

============
“To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for YOUR HUSBAND, And HE WILL RULE OVER YOU." Genesis 3:16.
============

Note carefully that the Lord God and the Apostle Paul giving the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) connect the ‘woman’s transgression’ to a ‘lower’ status than a ‘helper.’ The woman is currently being dealt with at ‘arm’s length’ and being ‘ruled over’ like a subject under a lord/king/master! The woman is reduced from having equal say as a ‘helper’ to a lower position of now being ‘quiet’ and remaining ‘silent.’

============
“The women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches; for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to LEARN ANYTHING, let them ask their own husbands AT HOME; for it is IMPROPER for a woman to speak in church. Was it FROM YOU that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come TO YOU only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the “LORD’S COMMANDMENT.” But if ANYONE does not recognize this, he is NOT recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:34-38.
============

Where does Paul even things out by proclaiming the “Lord’s Commandment” that men are NOT allowed to speak in the assembly? Good luck trying to find anything like that in God’s Living Word. Man has the image and glory OF GOD, while woman has the glory OF MAN and MUST pray with her head covered!

============
“For a man ought NOT to have his head covered, since he is the IMAGE AND GLORY OF GOD; but the woman is the GLORY OF MAN. For man DOES NOT originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but WOMAN FOR MAN’S SAKE. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.” 1Corinthians 11:7-10.
============

Why must women pray with their heads covered, “because of the angels.”?? Does this even make Biblical sense? Yes! I provide the explanation here ( http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9135 ). All of this ‘angel, man and woman’ business goes back BEYOND the garden to a time before time that finds us as “gods” (Ps 82:6, John 10:34) in God’s Infinite Realm.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/56.jpg

Figure 1 is God’s Infinite Realm were “You are Gods,” which is the location of the Satanic Rebellion. The devil went about deceiving and those incarnated into Figure 3 (This Creation) as “Women” were beguiled into going out to deceive others. Those incarnate here as “Men” were never deceived by Satan and laughed at him, but eventually succumbed to the deceptions of those incarnate here as “Women.” The womenfolk should pray with their heads covered, because of the “Angels” incarnate here (Hebrews 13:2) who were deceived by NOBODY! The ‘veil’ over her head symbolizes the division of the ‘soul’ and ‘body’ or the divider between ‘heaven’ and ‘earth.’ Every ‘three witness’ group like the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) is separated by the First and Second “Veil” lines on display in the diagram above. Men have the image and glory of God, because they stand in the ‘spirit’ witness position like the Father over the Son and Holy Spirit. The ‘woman’ is the helper in the same way the Holy Spirit is the “Helper” (John 16:7) for the Father AND the Son. This means the woman, who once possessed the #2 position (Adam = spirit + Eve = water), now stands in the #3 position serving her husband (spirit = #1) AND their seed (blood = #2). If the women here will take a good look around, then the men in their lives are the same ones they deceived in God’s Infinite Realm, which is the reason all of you are here in the first place! THAT is why you are wise to remain silent and never try to rule over your man, because the outcome of ‘your’ judgment in God’s Infinite Realm weighs in the balance!

While I know for certain that these Bible teachings are very unpopular with the womenfolk, I can also attest to the fact that every single word here is ‘the truth’ so help me God. Women trying to force themselves into an ‘equality’ position with the man having the image and glory of God are cutting their own throats where things really matter in God’s Infinite Realm. BTW, any President (Bush) who sends a woman (Ms. Rice) to negotiate “Peace” between Arabs and Jews is out of his cotton picking mind! He may as well send a slaughtered pig to every Jewish Synagogue on the planet. A country who elects a woman President (Ms. Clinton) is paving a broad road to destruction.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

At the heart of every man...

He needs respect.
He wants and needs to provide.
He wants a battle to fight- a mission.
He wants to know, "Am I good enough?"

At the heart of every woman...

She wants to be beautiful.
She wants to be loved unconditionally and fought for.
She wants to be pursued by a man.
She wants to know, "Am I beautiful?"

In both male and female- we catch a glimpse of the Lord.

God wants to be respected.
He provides for us.
He fights for us.
He is always enough.

God is beautiful and reflects glory.
He wants our love.
He wants to be pursued.

[quote name='Terral' date='Jan 4 2007, 09:55 AM' post='97773']
Hi Gary Steed:

I read the entire thread down to Page 3 and did not even find anyone using a single verse of Scripture. Please allow me to present a case from God’s Word that show men and women very much NOT equal by any stretch of the imagination. You wrote:

============
Quote >> Gary >> “Difference Between Male + Female” One difference I do know for certain is between our depth of our emotional capacity. if I use sound to describe the difference it is this the male is like a whistle but the female is like a good wine glass when it is rubbed on the lip its sound is like a rich resounding + reverberating full bodied and bell like song.
============

God has given us His Living Word, so that emotionalism and characterizations can be replaced with ‘sound doctrine’ (1Tim. 4:6, 2Tim. 4:3, Titus 1:9, etc.). Many of you must prepare yourselves to accept the truth on one of the least favorite Bible topics of all. The Apostle Paul kicks things off by taking us all the way back to the garden with Adam and Eve, saying,

============
“A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I DO NOT allow a woman to teach OR exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT ADAM who was deceived, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.
============

Any ‘equality’ teaching between man and woman is thrown from the train right here in 1Timothy 2, because women are told to ‘quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness’ saying “the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.” Where does Scripture even things out by saying “But I do not allow a man to teach or exercise authority over a woman.”??? No place! The Scriptural reasoning behind these commands finds Paul and other Bible writers beating the same drum to the same ‘inequality’ song.

============
“You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with SOMEONE WEAKER, since she is A WOMAN; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.” 1Peter 3:7.
============

Many fail to realize that woman was taken from the side of man to be his “helper” (Genesis 2:18-20) even BEFORE she fell into transgression! Man did NOT “lord” over the woman in the garden, but she was the very extension and ‘right hand’ like a helper bringing everything to the tradesman building his dream home. However, the 50/50 mason/helper relationship came to an end in the day she fell into transgression, which finds the Lord God taking away from her ‘helper’ status:

============
“To the woman He said, "I will greatly multiply Your pain in childbirth, In pain you will bring forth children; Yet your desire will be for YOUR HUSBAND, And HE WILL RULE OVER YOU." Genesis 3:16.
============

Note carefully that the Lord God and the Apostle Paul giving the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) connect the ‘woman’s transgression’ to a ‘lower’ status than a ‘helper.’ The woman is currently being dealt with at ‘arm’s length’ and being ‘ruled over’ like a subject under a lord/king/master! The woman is reduced from having equal say as a ‘helper’ to a lower position of now being ‘quiet’ and remaining ‘silent.’

============
“The women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches; for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to LEARN ANYTHING, let them ask their own husbands AT HOME; for it is IMPROPER for a woman to speak in church. Was it FROM YOU that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come TO YOU only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the “LORD’S COMMANDMENT.” But if ANYONE does not recognize this, he is NOT recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:34-38.
============

Where does Paul even things out by proclaiming the “Lord’s Commandment” that men are NOT allowed to speak in the assembly? Good luck trying to find anything like that in God’s Living Word. Man has the image and glory OF GOD, while woman has the glory OF MAN and MUST pray with her head covered!

============
“For a man ought NOT to have his head covered, since he is the IMAGE AND GLORY OF GOD; but the woman is the GLORY OF MAN. For man DOES NOT originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but WOMAN FOR MAN’S SAKE. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.” 1Corinthians 11:7-10.
============

Why must women pray with their heads covered, “because of the angels.”?? Does this even make Biblical sense? Yes! I provide the explanation here ( http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9135 ). All of this ‘angel, man and woman’ business goes back BEYOND the garden to a time before time that finds us as “gods” (Ps 82:6, John 10:34) in God’s Infinite Realm.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c266/Terral03/56.jpg

Figure 1 is God’s Infinite Realm were “You are Gods,” which is the location of the Satanic Rebellion. The devil went about deceiving and those incarnated into Figure 3 (This Creation) as “Women” were beguiled into going out to deceive others. Those incarnate here as “Men” were never deceived by Satan and laughed at him, but eventually succumbed to the deceptions of those incarnate here as “Women.” The womenfolk should pray with their heads covered, because of the “Angels” incarnate here (Hebrews 13:2) who were deceived by NOBODY! The ‘veil’ over her head symbolizes the division of the ‘soul’ and ‘body’ or the divider between ‘heaven’ and ‘earth.’ Every ‘three witness’ group like the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) is separated by the First and Second “Veil” lines on display in the diagram above. Men have the image and glory of God, because they stand in the ‘spirit’ witness position like the Father over the Son and Holy Spirit. The ‘woman’ is the helper in the same way the Holy Spirit is the “Helper” (John 16:7) for the Father AND the Son. This means the woman, who once possessed the #2 position (Adam = spirit + Eve = water), now stands in the #3 position serving her husband (spirit = #1) AND their seed (blood = #2). If the women here will take a good look around, then the men in their lives are the same ones they deceived in God’s Infinite Realm, which is the reason all of you are here in the first place! THAT is why you are wise to remain silent and never try to rule over your man, because the outcome of ‘your’ judgment in God’s Infinite Realm weighs in the balance!

While I know for certain that these Bible teachings are very unpopular with the womenfolk, I can also attest to the fact that every single word here is ‘the truth’ so help me God. Women trying to force themselves into an ‘equality’ position with the man having the image and glory of God are cutting their own throats where things really matter in God’s Infinite Realm. BTW, any President (Bush) who sends a woman (Ms. Rice) to negotiate “Peace” between Arabs and Jews is out of his cotton picking mind! He may as well send a slaughtered pig to every Jewish Synagogue on the planet. A country who elects a woman President (Ms. Clinton) is paving a broad road to destruction.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral
[/quote]

That's what I call stepping up to the plate and being counted. ALL manner of [i]correct[/i] doctrine is not popular with people-- never was either, nor will it ever be. This isn't just the woman question, but many other teachings as well. I admire your courage.

I thank You, and praise You, dear Father, my God, that You are wise. You shaped in each one of us a spirit to Your desire. When you said," It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Gen 2:18), You had not yet created woman, and therefore were not addressing her needs, or lack thereof. Thank You for giving me a strong spirit accompanied by wisdom so that I am happy and capable in being without a husband. Thank You for increasing my faith in You. Thank You for giving me physical strength, whether it be for breaking horses, taking down trees and splitting them up, building gazebos, roofing houses, or rebuilding an engine. Thank You for giving me a true eye when I hunt. Thank You for allowing me to enjoy Your majesty when I kayak Your beautiful rivers and for giving me the courage and ability to go by myself. Thank You for making me a woman who appreciates Your touch on the smallest of things, like the whiskers of my kitty to the first buds of a rose in spring. I thank You that I am single and have nothing to get in between You and I, like a husband who would take scripture out of context to keep me ignorant of You. I thank You for Your son Jesus, who elevated women more than anyone or anything else in history. I thank You for Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Noadiah, Anna, and the daughters of Phillip, who both prophesied and judged, and were not quiet. I thank You for Priscilla, Aquila, Phebe, and Mary, who risked their lives to spread Your word, and were not quiet, but did preach and teach even men, commended by Paul. I thank You for Ruth and Hannah, for their constancy and nurturing. I thank You greatly for Abigail, an extremely capable woman, and for Esther, for her self-sacrificing ways. I thank You for Mary of Bethany, who annointed the Lord's feet, and in so doing caused a disturbance. I thank You for good women to learn from, from Dorcas who was full of good works and almsdeeds to Lydia, a successful business woman who hosted Paul in her home after her baptism. I thank You that women were first at His birth, last at the cross, and first at the tomb. That it was faithful women who first proclaimed the resurrection, that it was a woman who was the first preacher to the Jews, and was definitely not quiet. I thank You that women attended the first prayer meeting, were the first to greet Christian missionaries, and that the first European convert was a woman. I thank You for forgiving us of the transgression of Eve, and bringing us back up out of the gutter that we were in. I thank You for Paul, who knew the difference between the women he commended in spreading the word and the ignorant ones he was referring to in his letter's to Corinth. I thank You for everything, Lord, and praise You for everything, for without You, we are nothing.

In Jesus' name, Angela

[quote name='AngelaNPraise' date='Jan 4 2007, 08:04 PM' post='97823']
I thank You, and praise You, dear Father, my God, that You are wise. You shaped in each one of us a spirit to Your desire. When you said," It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him." (Gen 2:18), You had not yet created woman, and therefore were not addressing her needs, or lack thereof. Thank You for giving me a strong spirit accompanied by wisdom so that I am happy and capable in being without a husband. Thank You for increasing my faith in You. Thank You for giving me physical strength, whether it be for breaking horses, taking down trees and splitting them up, building gazebos, roofing houses, or rebuilding an engine. Thank You for giving me a true eye when I hunt. Thank You for allowing me to enjoy Your majesty when I kayak Your beautiful rivers and for giving me the courage and ability to go by myself. Thank You for making me a woman who appreciates Your touch on the smallest of things, like the whiskers of my kitty to the first buds of a rose in spring. I thank You that I am single and have nothing to get in between You and I, like a husband who would take scripture out of context to keep me ignorant of You. I thank You for Your son Jesus, who elevated women more than anyone or anything else in history. I thank You for Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, Noadiah, Anna, and the daughters of Phillip, who both prophesied and judged, and were not quiet. I thank You for Priscilla, Aquila, Phebe, and Mary, who risked their lives to spread Your word, and were not quiet, but did preach and teach even men, commended by Paul. I thank You for Ruth and Hannah, for their constancy and nurturing. I thank You greatly for Abigail, an extremely capable woman, and for Esther, for her self-sacrificing ways. I thank You for Mary of Bethany, who annointed the Lord's feet, and in so doing caused a disturbance. I thank You for good women to learn from, from Dorcas who was full of good works and almsdeeds to Lydia, a successful business woman who hosted Paul in her home after her baptism. I thank You that women were first at His birth, last at the cross, and first at the tomb. That it was faithful women who first proclaimed the resurrection, that it was a woman who was the first preacher to the Jews, and was definitely not quiet. I thank You that women attended the first prayer meeting, were the first to greet Christian missionaries, and that the first European convert was a woman. I thank You for forgiving us of the transgression of Eve, and bringing us back up out of the gutter that we were in. I thank You for Paul, who knew the difference between the women he commended in spreading the word and the ignorant ones he was referring to in his letter's to Corinth. I thank You for everything, Lord, and praise You for everything, for without You, we are nothing.

In Jesus' name, Angela
[/quote]



Angela, you speak the truth here. Since you are slightly more advanced in understanding than some who have replied to your message it is your test to hold your knowledge unto your heart until Christ returns. The RCC is holding to the ancient traditions of Judiasm as delivered to the Israelites by Moses. The male sons of the Levite tribe were named to the priesthood. Until some clear message instructs the Bride of Christ to function differently, this is what we have to work with. There is a difference between a prophet and a priest. There is no record of female priests in Judaism or Christianity. There is, however, plenty of evidence of female, [i]pagan[/i] priests. Or more appropriately [i]priestesses[/i].

This is my own crazy idea, but we all know that paganism tried to hijack Christianity from the beginning and even to this very day. A belief system ruled over by a high priestess. This is where the heresy of stories like the Da Vinci Code stem from. The policy of a male priesthood would protect the faith from infiltration of paganism into Christianity. This practice may truely be the work of the Holy Spirit. I will pray that the wisdom of this Christian practice be revealed to you.

Peace, sojourner

[quote name='sojourner' date='Jan 5 2007, 07:35 AM' post='97854']
This is my own crazy idea, but we all know that paganism tried to hijack Christianity from the beginning and even to this very day. A belief system ruled over by a high priestess. This is where the heresy of stories like the Da Vinci Code stem from. The policy of a male priesthood would protect the faith from infiltration of paganism into Christianity. This practice may truely be the work of the Holy Spirit. I will pray that the wisdom of this Christian practice be revealed to you.

Peace, sojourner
[/quote]

Sojourner, the idea of a female priest completely discombobulates me. I don't like the idea of a woman taking on priestly roles, and find no scriptural evidence for allowing female priests. There are certain priestly functions which only a man can and should fulfill. For instance, should I someday enter into marraige, I would not have a woman perform the rite, even if 'qualified' to do so. In my own little church, the pre-dominant pastor is a woman (her husband is still recovering from a truck wreck), and when we have communion we ask that the sacraments be given by another church leader, a man who is a preacher as well. Preaching, teaching, and spreading the Word are not among those types of duties, yet all Christians are called to do so, whether they be male or female. I find it interesting that there seemed to be less debate about this in the early church than there is today. (Perhaps because some femi-nazi's are never satisfied, and presume to take on all roles?)

In Christ, Angela

Hi Angela:

===========
Angela >> I find it interesting that there seemed to be less debate about this in the early church than there is today. (Perhaps because some femi-nazi's are never satisfied, and presume to take on all roles?)
===========

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with all of this “I, I, I thank you . . .” business from Post #17, but this ‘femi-nazi’ lingo takes the cake. You used a single verse of Scripture (Genesis 2:18) in a feeble attempt to justify elevating “women more than anyone or anything else in history” (from your post). All of your self gratifying gestures combined were needed, because of the inequality taught between men and women from Genesis to Revelation. Did you have one word of rebuttal to my Post #13? Not even one peep . . . Why? Scripture teaches that women are not even allowed to speak in the assembly:

============
“A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I DO NOT allow a woman to teach OR exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT ADAM who was deceived, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.
============

Who is supposed to believe that Christ is elevating women to a brand new status, when Scripture includes such commands as these? You gave very good reasons for wanting a man to replace the wife of your pastor, but then backtracked with this “femi-nazi” gibberish; when those attacked by your ridicule are using your same “Scriptural” basis and reasoning. Women hide behind teachings like from Peter on this very topic:

============
“You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with SOMEONE WEAKER, since she is A WOMAN; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.” 1Peter 3:7.
============

However, they then turn around and accuse others of being ‘femi-nazi’s’ when they draw the same conclusions and treat womenfolk as “someone weaker, since she is a woman.” Paul’s words on this topic (“The Women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches”) is the “Lord’s Commandment,” and those refusing to recognize this are NOT even recognized as members of Christ’s body.

============
“The women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches; for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to LEARN ANYTHING, let them ask their own husbands AT HOME; for it is IMPROPER for a woman to speak in church. Was it FROM YOU that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come TO YOU only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the “LORD’S COMMANDMENT.” But if ANYONE does not recognize this, he is NOT recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:34-38.
============

Every triune set of witnesses of Scripture bears a numerology and precise position like the Father (#1), the Son (#2) and the Holy Spirit (#3) as the “HELPER” (John 16:7). Eve and women represent the “helper” (Gen. 2:18+20) in the very same way and you do NOT see the Holy Spirit all bent out of shape over being placed behind the Father and the Son (Matt. 28:19). The Heavens (spirit) and Heaven (blood) are also standing over the Earth (water) in an identical triune mystery set, which finds the “Earth” standing in the “Helper” position. The man has the image and glory OF GOD, but woman has the ‘water’ witness glory OF MAN. 1Cor. 11:7. Do you fully understand what that means? Obviously NOT. The explanation is given here ( http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9135 ). You have a spirit (spirit witness), soul (blood witness) AND a physical body (water witness) following the exact three witness formula common to ALL the triune mystery sets of Scripture, but should we try to pretend this earth has the same ‘glory’ of the heavens (Ps 19:1, 97:6)? No. Scripture says that “His glory is ABOVE earth AND heaven.” (Ps 148:13).

============
“For a man ought NOT to have his head covered, since he is the IMAGE AND GLORY OF GOD; but the woman is the GLORY OF MAN. For man DOES NOT originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but WOMAN FOR MAN’S SAKE. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.” 1Corinthians 11:7-10.
============

Women are to pray with their heads covered, because of the same ‘veil’ that exists between the earth AND heaven above, which mirrors the division of your body (water) from your soul (blood witness). Man is not supposed to command woman to obey God and His Word, but woman is supposed to find her rightful place and do these things out of ‘faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.’ (1Tim. 2:15). God is teaching His sons about Himself (spirit), His Word (blood) and This Adamic Creation (water) through the relationships existing between the man (spirit), woman (water) and their seed (blood witnesses) enlarging between them, but this is IMPOSSIBLE if we refuse to recognize and acknowledge His true intentions according to Scripture. There is no reason for anybody to come along and push women down into the #3 position, IF they follow God’s Word and place the covering upon their heads in prayer all by themselves. There is no reason for any pastor to close the mouths of the womenfolk in the called out assembly, if their lips are sewn together by their own will. Every syllable of God’s Word is given for A GOOD REASON and we are expected to obey the “Lord’s Commandment” whether we understand His reasoning or not.

Your so-called “femi-nazi’s” are being forced to speak up and make a stand, because of all this ‘elevation’ of women that has NO basis in Biblical fact whatsoever. I apologize to anyone offended in advance for being placed in the position of having to bring these things to your attention in some attempt to find the breadcrumb trail back to ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word about the ‘inequality of man and woman.’

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

WHAT!! “femi-nazi’s”
I think you have a ya got a problem.
Please chill.
Kim

[quote name='Terral' date='Jan 6 2007, 09:54 AM' post='97954']
Hi Angela:

===========
Angela >> I find it interesting that there seemed to be less debate about this in the early church than there is today. (Perhaps because some femi-nazi's are never satisfied, and presume to take on all roles?)
===========

I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt with all of this “I, I, I thank you . . .” business from Post #17, but this ‘femi-nazi’ lingo takes the cake. You used a single verse of Scripture (Genesis 2:18) in a feeble attempt to justify elevating “women more than anyone or anything else in history” (from your post). All of your self gratifying gestures combined were needed, because of the inequality taught between men and women from Genesis to Revelation. Did you have one word of rebuttal to my Post #13? Not even one peep . . . Why? Scripture teaches that women are not even allowed to speak in the assembly:

============
“A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I DO NOT allow a woman to teach OR exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT ADAM who was deceived, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.
============

Who is supposed to believe that Christ is elevating women to a brand new status, when Scripture includes such commands as these? You gave very good reasons for wanting a man to replace the wife of your pastor, but then backtracked with this “femi-nazi” gibberish; when those attacked by your ridicule are using your same “Scriptural” basis and reasoning. Women hide behind teachings like from Peter on this very topic:

============
“You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with SOMEONE WEAKER, since she is A WOMAN; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered.” 1Peter 3:7.
============

However, they then turn around and accuse others of being ‘femi-nazi’s’ when they draw the same conclusions and treat womenfolk as “someone weaker, since she is a woman.” Paul’s words on this topic (“The Women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches”) is the “Lord’s Commandment,” and those refusing to recognize this are NOT even recognized as members of Christ’s body.

============
“The women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches; for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to LEARN ANYTHING, let them ask their own husbands AT HOME; for it is IMPROPER for a woman to speak in church. Was it FROM YOU that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come TO YOU only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the “LORD’S COMMANDMENT.” But if ANYONE does not recognize this, he is NOT recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:34-38.
============

Every triune set of witnesses of Scripture bears a numerology and precise position like the Father (#1), the Son (#2) and the Holy Spirit (#3) as the “HELPER” (John 16:7). Eve and women represent the “helper” (Gen. 2:18+20) in the very same way and you do NOT see the Holy Spirit all bent out of shape over being placed behind the Father and the Son (Matt. 28:19). The Heavens (spirit) and Heaven (blood) are also standing over the Earth (water) in an identical triune mystery set, which finds the “Earth” standing in the “Helper” position. The man has the image and glory OF GOD, but woman has the ‘water’ witness glory OF MAN. 1Cor. 11:7. Do you fully understand what that means? Obviously NOT. The explanation is given here ( http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9135 ). You have a spirit (spirit witness), soul (blood witness) AND a physical body (water witness) following the exact three witness formula common to ALL the triune mystery sets of Scripture, but should we try to pretend this earth has the same ‘glory’ of the heavens (Ps 19:1, 97:6)? No. Scripture says that “His glory is ABOVE earth AND heaven.” (Ps 148:13).

============
“For a man ought NOT to have his head covered, since he is the IMAGE AND GLORY OF GOD; but the woman is the GLORY OF MAN. For man DOES NOT originate from woman, but woman from man; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but WOMAN FOR MAN’S SAKE. Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels.” 1Corinthians 11:7-10.
============

Women are to pray with their heads covered, because of the same ‘veil’ that exists between the earth AND heaven above, which mirrors the division of your body (water) from your soul (blood witness). Man is not supposed to command woman to obey God and His Word, but woman is supposed to find her rightful place and do these things out of ‘faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.’ (1Tim. 2:15). God is teaching His sons about Himself (spirit), His Word (blood) and This Adamic Creation (water) through the relationships existing between the man (spirit), woman (water) and their seed (blood witnesses) enlarging between them, but this is IMPOSSIBLE if we refuse to recognize and acknowledge His true intentions according to Scripture. There is no reason for anybody to come along and push women down into the #3 position, IF they follow God’s Word and place the covering upon their heads in prayer all by themselves. There is no reason for any pastor to close the mouths of the womenfolk in the called out assembly, if their lips are sewn together by their own will. Every syllable of God’s Word is given for A GOOD REASON and we are expected to obey the “Lord’s Commandment” whether we understand His reasoning or not.

Your so-called “femi-nazi’s” are being forced to speak up and make a stand, because of all this ‘elevation’ of women that has NO basis in Biblical fact whatsoever. I apologize to anyone offended in advance for being placed in the position of having to bring these things to your attention in some attempt to find the breadcrumb trail back to ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word about the ‘inequality of man and woman.’

In Christ Jesus,

Terral
[/quote]


What is you point Terral? We're just exchanging idesa here, not re-writing the Bible.

sojourner

God works with pictures and types...

The intimacy between man and woman, when joined by LOVE, is a beautiful picture of the union of man as a bride with Christ, which is God, a picture of true fellowship!

Terral.

I am soooooo glad my Lord understood what I had to say...

Are you trying to correct my prayer now, man of the flesh? (I certainly do not need or want the benefit of your doubt.)

As for scriptural backing to what I had to thank the Lord for;
EX 35:25, JUD 4:4, JUD 4:7, 1 S 25:1,3,18-19, AC 9:36, RO 16:1-3, RO 16:6, PH 4:3, EX 15:20, 2 K 22:14, NE 6:14, LU 2:36, AC 21:9, AC 18:26, RU 1:16, 1 S 1:20, 1 S 2:19, 2 KI 4:8-10, EST 4:16, MT 15:28, MK 16:1,9, LU 1:30-38,43, MT 26:13, LU 10:40,42, JN 4:29, AC 16:13-15, MK 15:47, JN 20:1, MT 28:8, LU 2:37, AC 1:14, and, oh, so many more!!! (Guess what, they weren't silent!)

Interesting what one can find out by taking the whole Bible IN context.

As for those who would try to use Holy scripture in an attempt to hide their misogyny, may the Lord open the eyes to your hearts.
Jesus certainly did elevate women, especially when compared to what their 'places' were generally compared to be prior to His arrival. He respected them, and died for them as well, removing their sin as well as man's.

In your 'rebuttal' to my prayer of thanks, you twisted and took out of context my words in much the same way as you did scripture. You also showed a decided lack of ability at recognizing sarcasm when it comes to 'femi-nazi's'(to clear it up, they are as distasteful group as can be.)

Believe it or not, I defend Paul to a male minister I know when he states how Paul had a problem with women! You will find NO 'backtracking' from me, read what I had to say again and again until you get it, and you will see what I mean. Perhap's you mistake 'priest' for 'preach' (two different roles)?

In Christ, Angela

P.S. Since you want to harp on 'strength' and 'weakness', this is the only reason why I bring this up. My bench press was topped out at 275 lbs. and I've attained 82 push-ups in under 2 minutes, timed by a trusty D.I. (drill instructor), which is quite a bit better than the 'average' among men of the same age. Still look good in a dress, too, but I guess you would prefer a burka?

"be constructive and respectful please"

Gee wiz...I didn't know l was missing so much. Thankyou Angela for the praise of God's creation.

I believe the veils been removed and we can plainly see what's hidding under the hooded white robe.

Did you know the devil is portrayed as male? It took the one of the most powerful beings in the universe to fool a women but it took a mere women to fool a man. Your a good example of one still being fooled and passing your foolishness along to every sorry soul who will listen.

Now l know why you've been rude to me in the past no fool. You want me to shut my mouth.

Well...so let's draw up sides. That's what the string is for is it not?

[center]!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/center]
[quote name='StormEagle' date='Nov 7 2006, 10:59 AM' post='90888']
Humble Bob said...

[quote]apples and oranges, dude...[/quote


Yeah, but we make a mean fruit salad brother!


I believe men and women are two halves of a greater whole. The greater whole is the refected image of God. (not to say you must have a mate to be whole). We balance each other when properly matched by our father. Passion vs. Logic.......Love vs. Desires of the Flesh....Emotional vs. Mechanical....


And the beauty of it all is that when biblical principles are applied, the balance in the middle will allow us to co-habitate, and heck maybe even enjoy each other

God has a sense of humor
[/quote]

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You do indeed need a mate to be whole. Christ's mate was His Father in Heaven.
No one can be whole with an earthly mate.
It is the Spirit of our Father in Heaven that makes anyone truly whole, as our Lord showed us.
The flesh profits nothing, nothing at all.


[center]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[/center]
[center]<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>[/center]

Hi Angela and Miki with NoFool (mentioned):

This appears to be an arm wrestling match between Angela/Miki against Terral on this “Difference Between Male + Female” Topic. Thank you very much for having the courage to at least mention my name atop your post. Miki (Post #26+27) does not appear to share your conviction, because her grandstanding posts bear no member’s name at all. Who is she addressing with her [b]“Your (You are) a good example of one being fooled . . .”[/b] (Post #26) comments? Since Miki is here to defend you with this “Jesus Elevated Women’s Status” nonsense, then I must assume she is addressing me too. Of course, those using such tactics will ‘deny, deny, deny’ they are even talking to anyone when confronted. The basic rule is that if you do not have the courage to place the member’s name atop the post, then remain silent and say nothing. Your readers do not know who you are addressing anyway. This is a very important Bible Topic that has ‘one right answer’ ONLY. Twice now I have shown both of you what God has to say on the “Inequality Of Man And Woman,” but both of you would rather cast stones at Terral than to ‘quote >>’ me AND the Scripture I quoted to share your opposing views. Both of you are in a debate that neither of you can win. In every case the essence of ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word agrees with me and nothing Angela or Miki says will change that simple fact. Let’s see what the ladies have for us today:

============
Angel Wrote >> Terral. I am soooooo glad my Lord understood what I had to say... Are you trying to correct my prayer now, man of the flesh? (I certainly do not need or want the benefit of your doubt.)
============

What makes you believe for one second that our Lord Jesus Christ understands anything you say ‘against’ God’s Living Word? This is NOT the “Prayer” or “Testimonial” Section of this fine Board, but you are sitting squarely in the middle of the “Debates” Forum and particularly the “Controversial Topics” Room. This is where we are allowed to ‘quote >>’ one another to offer our ‘opposing views’ using Scripture. You are responding to Gary’s Opening Post by advocating the “Jesus Elevated The Status Of Women*” position, while I am answering your statements from the “Inequality Of Men And Women” position. You are caught trying to assume the high moral ground by redefining your statements as a ‘prayer,’ as if your work in this thread is something other than claims to prop up your own ‘thesis*’ stated above. I have quoted Paul from his Epistles written to our ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) “His BODY” Church (Col. 1:24) sufficiently already and neither you or Miki have one word of rebuttal. Attacking my person is only going to prove to your readers that you never had a Biblical leg to stand on in this “Debate.” Trying to demonize me and my testimony with name calling tactics (“you man of flesh”) is not going to work here missy. The topic title includes the request for registered members to “Be Constructive And Respectful Please,” which I have been doing from the beginning.

=============
Angela Wrote >> As for scriptural backing to what I had to thank the Lord for;
EX 35:25, JUD 4:4, JUD 4:7, 1 S 25:1,3,18-19, AC 9:36, RO 16:1-3, RO 16:6, PH 4:3, EX 15:20, 2 K 22:14, NE 6:14, LU 2:36, AC 21:9, AC 18:26, RU 1:16, 1 S 1:20, 1 S 2:19, 2 KI 4:8-10, EST 4:16, MT 15:28, MK 16:1,9, LU 1:30-38,43, MT 26:13, LU 10:40,42, JN 4:29, AC 16:13-15, MK 15:47, JN 20:1, MT 28:8, LU 2:37, AC 1:14, and, oh, so many more!!! (Guess what, they weren't silent!)
=============

Why offer any references apart from a paragraph or two of meaningful commentary? None of your OT quotes mean anything, because your thesis says that “Jesus Elevated The Status Of Women” at His coming. Even your proposal recognizes that women under Mosaic Law are to remain silent, which Paul tells you in 1Corinthians 14:34 (“. . . for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, JUST AS THE LAW also says.”) Therefore, your Old Testament references are useless by the very thesis you set out to prove. Since Paul is saying the precise same thing (“. . . The women are to keep silent in the assemblies . . .”), then we can CLEARLY see the same ‘weaker vessel’ (1Peter 3:7) rule from “the Law” is still in place for the ‘body of Christ’ (believers in our gospel) for the New Testament. You are assuming that pasting a mile of Bible references means something, when in fact your case had no legs from the very start. Man is still the ‘image and glory OF GOD’ and woman is still the ‘glory of man.’ 1Corinthians 11:7.

=============
Angela Wrote >> Interesting what one can find out by taking the whole Bible IN context.
=============

Please start writing something in the way of “commentary” for each of your references and perhaps we will have something to debate on this topic.

=============
Angela Wrote >> As for those who would try to use Holy scripture in an attempt to hide their misogyny, may the Lord open the eyes to your hearts. Jesus certainly did elevate women, especially when compared to what their 'places' were generally compared to be prior to His arrival. He respected them, and died for them as well, removing their sin as well as man's.
=============

This is just more nonsense from a disgruntled woman trying to hide the shame of her ‘weaker’ (1Peter 3:7) position in the family unit. Does God ‘hate’ the Holy Spirit (water witness) for placing the “Helper” (John 16:7) in the ‘third’ position behind the Father (spirit) and the Son (blood)?? Matt. 28:19?? No. Is Eve hated for coming out of man to be formed as his “helper” (Gen. 2:18+20)? No. Those are mere realities of Scripture that teach ‘relationships’ between God (spirit), The Word (F+S+HS = blood witness) and This Creation (water witness). The heavens (spirit) have a greater glory than the visible earth and the spirit utilizing our bodies (water) has a greater glory than the visible vehicle of expression. I explain the differences between the three witnesses here ( http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=9135 ) and make no excuses for all of the ‘water’ witnesses appearing in the #3 position behind the spirit and blood witnesses. NONE of the weaker vessels (water witnesses) are hated by anyone, but this is simply God’s true order of things and the way He intends for His sons to understand the truth of His Living Word. To characterize those among us seeing the “Inequality Of Man And Woman” very clearly as hiding “misogyny” (hatred of women) is an underhanded debating tactic from one in a very weak position. The Lord is NOT going to open any hearts to see your false dogma, because nothing in Scripture agrees with your “Equality Of The Sexes” Theory. In fact, you are misusing Scripture to teach something directly contradictory to God’s intentions.

===========
Angela Wrote >> In your 'rebuttal' to my prayer of thanks, you twisted and took out of context my words in much the same way as you did scripture. You also showed a decided lack of ability at recognizing sarcasm when it comes to 'femi-nazi's'(to clear it up, they are as distasteful group as can be.)
===========

Your prayer? Please stop deluding yourself by pretending this is the “Prayer” Room and start acting like you pressed the ‘Add Reply’ button in this “Debates” Forum. You had every opportunity (and still do) to “quote >>” me like I am doing your every word to offer your own rebuttal to my comments using Scripture. Did you cease upon that opportunity? No! Why not? Instead you elected to make judgments about my work that have no basis in reality whatsoever. If you feel one thing in any of my posts is made in error or taken out of context, then simply “quote >>” that and show everyone the difference using Scripture. You cannot do anything like that in this debate, because your feeble case has no “Scriptural” leg to stand on. That is why you are attacking my person, instead of my ‘arguments’ standing against you in this Debate. All of your “femi-nazi” gibberish is meaningless to anything in these deliberations, because even your readers can see you are reduced to name-calling tactics over having no case at all. I have no need to ‘demonize’ you or Miki in this debate, because both of you are simply on the wrong side. My arguments will continue to stand on this thread, because everything is supported by God’s Living Word. I can go through and quote everything again if you feel that is required.

===========
Angela Wrote >> Believe it or not, I defend Paul to a male minister I know when he states how Paul had a problem with women! You will find NO 'backtracking' from me, read what I had to say again and again until you get it, and you will see what I mean. Perhap's you mistake 'priest' for 'preach' (two different roles)?
===========

Your personal encounters with a ‘male minister’ (Heh . . . this shows you to be standing in the ‘sexist’ position) have nothing to do with anything in this Debate. The mountain of evidence standing against you in this Debate is very much overwhelming and insurmountable. How can you even respond to Paul’s explicit teachings on this topic?

============
“A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I DO NOT allow a woman to teach OR exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT ADAM who was deceived, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.

“The women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches; for they are NOT permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. If they desire to LEARN ANYTHING, let them ask their own husbands AT HOME; for it is IMPROPER for a woman to speak in church. Was it FROM YOU that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come TO YOU only? If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the “LORD’S COMMANDMENT.” But if ANYONE does not recognize this, he is NOT recognized.” 1Corinthians 14:34-38.
============

Shall we go through and provide the Greek definitions of all these terms to shed even more Light on the VAST differences between Man and Woman from the perspective of God’s Living Word? How many ways are there to interpret “The Women are to KEEP SILENT in the churches . . .”?? Where are men told to “subject themselves” to women??? Was it ‘from you’ the Word of God first went forth or has it come TO YOU only? If you will not believe God speaking ‘the truth’ through the Apostle Paul, then what reason have you to believe a bible thumper like me quoting THEM BOTH?! The simple truth is that “Women will be preserved through the BEARING OF CHILDREN” but only “IF they continue in faith AND love AND sanctity with SELF-RESTRAINT.” Should your readers interpret your “Jesus Elevated Women” interpretations as from a woman using the provisions of Paul’s “Lord’s Commandment” teachings above? Not by any stretch of the imagination! Since man has the image and glory of God AND woman has the glory of man (1Cor. 11:7), then YOUR attempts to elevate women shows YOU trying to give woman the ‘image and glory OF GOD.’ There is simply no room in the middle for woman to occupy any other position BETWEEN the ‘image and glory OF GOD’ VERSUS the ‘glory of man.’ God’s Word contains NO CONTRADICTIONS, but your thesis says that Jesus is elevating woman to something ‘more’ than having the ‘image of man,’ which is an abominable LIE. Your false dogma places you in the position of NOT being recognized, according to Paul’s teaching above in 1Cor. 14:37-38 to which you have turned a blind eye. In short, both you and Miki would have been FAR wiser to ‘remain silent in the assembly’ rather than trying to prop up this “Equality Of Man And Woman” false doctrine.

===========
Angela Wrote >> P.S. Since you want to harp on 'strength' and 'weakness', this is the only reason why I bring this up. My bench press was topped out at 275 lbs. and I've attained 82 push-ups in under 2 minutes, timed by a trusty D.I. (drill instructor), which is quite a bit better than the 'average' among men of the same age. Still look good in a dress, too, but I guess you would prefer a burka?
===========

Maybe your obsession with trying to perform like men has blinded you from seeing ‘the truth’ of our “Inequality” taught from Genesis to Revelation in God’s Living Word. Doing pushups is not going to ‘quote >>’ me and offer opposing views using Scripture to give your thesis wings.

===========
Miki (Post #25) >> Gee wiz...I didn't know l was missing so much. Thankyou Angela for the praise of God's creation. I believe the veils been removed and we can plainly see what's hidding under the hooded white robe.
===========

Your comments are degrading and yet another attempt to demonize your debating opponents on this topic apart from actually “quoting >>” anything to offer any opposing views. Both of you are guilty of using underhanded trickery in these deliberations to be found in a very unappealing Light. If you wish to forward your “Equality Of The Sexes” agenda, then by all means start showing yourself approved to God by accurately handing the word of truth. 2Timothy 2:15. You can also begin placing 'the name' of the member atop your post that you intend to address. Otherwise I will assume you are voicing your attacks against me. I would love to ‘quote >>’ you on this topic, but you are grandstanding and chucking stones while refusing to say anything on the topic.

==========
Miki (Post #26) >> Did you know the devil is portrayed as male? It took the one of the most powerful beings in the universe to fool a women but it took a mere women to fool a man. Your a good example of one still being fooled and passing your foolishness along to every sorry soul who will listen.
==========

Why create another post for one line of gibberish, when you could have added this with your previous minimal post (#25)?? Now we can see how one can easily make 5400 posts here without really saying anything. You and I bumped heads over your ‘cut and paste’ jobs from third party commentators that also show a serious lack of conviction and understanding of these Bible Topics. If the girls here want to use the underhanded debating tactics (demonizing your debating opponent using nonsense), then expect for the seasoned veterans of Debate here to show you how it feels to have the shoe on the other foot! My intention is to “Be constructive AND Respectful” to my debating opponents on this and every thread, but if the Moderators are going to allow your demonizing to stand, then those you seek to victimize with your slanderous remarks have no choice but to show our readers the difference. Any concerned member or Moderator can go back through this thread and see the girls are in attack mode and lashing out with name calling and demonizing tactics, while I have been writing ‘on’ the topic using Scripture. I am sorry if God’s Word places ‘man’ in the glory of God position, while placing woman in the ‘glory of man’ position. 1Cor. 11:7. That is just the way the cookie crumbles on this topic. My resistance to your attempts to elevate woman into the ‘image and glory OF GOD’ position is evidence that your trickery is not working on me. That finger pointing at me reveals three crooked witnesses pointing straight back at you!

==========
Miki (Post # 27 some 11 minutes later) >> Now l know why you've been rude to me in the past no fool. You want me to shut my mouth. Well...so let's draw up sides. That's what the string is for is it not?
==========

Now your attention appears to be in the direction of “No Fool,” but No Name or Salutation appears at the top of your post. I must take a wild guess, because even “no fool” is not capitalized to give us a clue. Once again your demeanor and attitude is far from respectful and even being tasteful. If you are in the right on this topic (NOT in a million years missy), then why waste these opportunities to show everyone the difference USING SCRIPTURE? No Fool nor Terral started this thread (Gary Steed did), but we are giving our ‘opposing views’ like everyone else. “No Fool” is certainly no fool, because he stands on my side, saying,

==========
NoFool (Post #15) >> That's what I call stepping up to the plate and being counted. ALL manner of CORRECT doctrine is not popular with people-- never was either, nor will it ever be. This isn't just the woman question, but many other teachings as well. I admire your courage.
==========

He is 100 percent correct that this topic is FAR from being just a ‘woman question,’ but many other teachings (even Father + Son + Holy Spirit (Helper) = The Word) are joined directly to this one. The womenfolk (Angela and Miki specifically) are taking offense to God’s Positioning of them in the ‘weaker’ (1Peter 3:7) and ‘helper’ position, when none of the men here can do anything about that. All we can do is show you what God says in His Word on this and related topics, so your readers are led into seeing “these things” given Paul (2Peter 3:14-16) in a true “Light.” Quite frankly it matters very little if the ladies here ‘shut their mouths’ or not, because you have no chance of winning ‘this’ debate either way. God has already commanded you to remain silent in the assembly and any disregard you have for the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) is between the womenfolk and the explicit commands our Creator.

My view is that your ‘talking it up’ and using these underhanded debating tactics are even greater opportunity for the rest of us to show our readers the difference. With all due respect to the ladies among us, I am doing my very best to be constructive and respectful to all in this debate. For each one of the ladies trying to speak above the voices of everyone else, there are vast numbers doing everything to follow God’s commands by keeping silent. We should not allow a distinct minority to change our opinions about women in general, because that would make us just like our debating opponents on this topic. This is a highly controversial topic and I apologize to anyone in advance who might be offended,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

No Terral...I just call a lie a lie. I don't disguise it under scripture. I'm addressing you. No qualms about it.

I can smell a woman hater a mile away. Quit lying to yourself and face this ugly fact in your life.

Don't try to cover it up under scripture.

Hi Miki:

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Miki >> No Terral...I just call a lie a lie. I don't disguise it under scripture. I'm addressing you. No qualms about it. I can smell a woman hater a mile away. Quit lying to yourself and face this ugly fact in your life. Don't try to cover it up under scripture.
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These emotional ‘off-topic’ outbursts do little to forward your “Equality Of The Sexes” case, when my posts in this “Debate” are solidly presented using God’s Living Word. 2Tim. 2:15. Please “quote >>” the part you find to be errant or ‘a lie’ and offer your own arguments using Scripture. Even the casual reader to this thread can see that you are attacking ‘my person’ with these false accusations rather than speaking to ‘the topic’ of this discussion. All of this “lying” and “disguising” and “woman hater” lingo says much more about you than me. These are your erroneous opinions based upon a woman’s emotions having very little to do with this Debate.

While I am trying very hard to be ‘constructive and respectful’ to the topic and my debating adversaries, you make things difficult by constantly attacking ‘my person’ rather than the topic itself. No sir. I will not be lowering myself down to your level by using such underhanded ‘name-calling and demonizing’ debating trickery, because your side ran out of arguments. After all, my “Inequality Of Man And Woman” case remains standing on this thread and you have nothing to say in reply. If you have nothing more to say about this topic, then please forgive if I ignore your venomous remarks in my direction. This is a very controversial and emotional topic for many and we can excuse you for reacting this way to the solid Biblical facts showing man has the image and glory of God, while woman has the glory of man. 1Corinthians 11:7. Nothing anyone can say will change that absolute and irrefutable truth . . .

God bless you in seeing the difference,

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

TERRAL YOU SAID:
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“A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I DO NOT allow a woman to teach OR exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was NOT ADAM who was deceived, but THE WOMAN being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children IF they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.” 1Timothy 2:11-15.
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QUESTION: If you believe what you posted in 1 Tim. 2:11-15 as quoted above, THEN why are you attempting to debate we mere woman folk on this forum?

Because in doing so would you not then be leading us woman folk to sin? How? 1 Cor.14:35 If they (woman) want to inquire about something, they should ASK THIER OWN HUSBANDS AT HOME; for it is disgracful for a woman to speak in the church.
Is is not when you attempt to draw one of us women into a debate about the word of God with you, questions are surely going to rise, will they not? If we are asking you then you place us out of order.

What did Paul really mean when he said let the woman keep silent? Could he be referring to the "UNSAVED" woman who went to cause problems? Because if scripture tells us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to ALL men and woman would the Lord truly keep the woman silent? What would be the point of given a woman a gift if she was to keep silent about it? A saved woman in right standing with her husband is operating according the will of God.

Though I do agree and always have when this kind of topic arises: I don't believe a woman should preach or place herself in a place where she has authority over her husband. To do so is to be out of order. What if her husband gave her permission to do so, would it then be okay? Still pondering that one and asking my husband....

To avoid unpleasentries with you, I will read your response if you care to respond, but won't be responding back to you....You just to Narcissistic plus no one but you wins your debates....Oh and dont' forget to look below to get the true definion of what a lecture truly is, as this post does not consititute a lecture either....For crying out loud! Holy smokes batman! <--------"WOMAN EMOTIONS GOING ON THE LOSE, TAKE COVER!"

Ya know in these parts where I live we have this company called Pick U Part....Do you own stock? Because you pick apart anyone who comes in contact with you....So go ahead, do your level best... <-----WAIT A MINUTE, OKAY I AM DONE! OUT BURST OVER!

Hi Pamela with Miki, NoFool, Angela and Kim (mentioned):

I was wondering how long before you came to support Miki. :0)

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Pamela >> QUESTION: If you believe what you posted in 1 Tim. 2:11-15 as quoted above, THEN why are you attempting to debate we mere woman folk on this forum?
==========

Attempting? Debate is about the presentation of ‘opposing views’ and I am presenting the “Inequality Of Man And Woman” for the benefit of our readers who might not know what God has to say on this topic from Scripture. Your names appear atop my post, because we have points of disagreement in this particular debate. My first post (#13) is to “Gary Steed” who started this thread. No Fool offered his approval in Post #15. Angela’s “I, I, I” Post (#16) followed his, which I found to speak to the “Equality Of The Sexes” thesis, which I was happy to ignore; until the “femi-nazi” lingo surfaced in Post #18. I then proceeded to offer Scriptural support for my own “Inequality Of Man And Woman” position (Post #19) and Kim48 told Angela to take a chill-pill (Post #20). Post #21 was ignored for lack of content and Angela ignored my arguments to enter her “glad the Lord understood me . . .” reply in Post #23.

Miki started piling on with ZERO in the way of a contribution to the debate, but thought casting stones here and there might prop up Angela’s “Jesus Raised Women’s Stature” thesis in Post #25. I can hardly take credit for ‘debating’ the ladies on this thread, because most of my activity been ducking the stones cast from their direction. You brought up 1Timothy 2:11-15 NOT to talk about the truth that “A woman MUST quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness,” but to egg me into the defensive position of answering even more questions. Do any of you have a “Men And Women Are Equal” passage that some how trumps what has already been presented above in this thread? No. I can commend you for having the courage and conviction to make a stand for your friend (Miki), but both of you are on the ‘wrong’ side of this debate. The womenfolk here wish to work under the pretense that there is equality of the sexes and that you are to exercise authority over men and women alike. Good for you! That answers your own question about why I am debating with the womenfolk and not your husbands!

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Pamela >> Because in doing so would you not then be leading us woman folk to sin? How? 1 Cor.14:35 If they (woman) want to inquire about something, they should ASK THIER OWN HUSBANDS AT HOME; for it is disgracful for a woman to speak in the church. Is is not when you attempt to draw one of us women into a debate about the word of God with you, questions are surely going to rise, will they not? If we are asking you then you place us out of order.
===========

No sir. You present your case and I will present mine and the third party readers can judge us both! 1Cor. 11:19. If they desire to take Biblical advice from Pamela, Miki and Angela, then more power to them. Nobody is bending your arm and forcing you to reply to anything and I am here just calling them as I see them. 2Tim. 2:15.

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Pamela >> What did Paul really mean when he said let the woman keep silent? Could he be referring to the "UNSAVED" woman who went to cause problems?
===========

No. These are general statements about men and women of the assembly! The term “church” (Ekklesia #1577) means the “called out assembly,” which means Paul is talking about the ‘body’ of believers themselves as “the church.” That is not a reference to any local building like many believe. That assembly of ‘called out’ believers can be assembled anywhere; even on the internet on these Bible Forums! In other words, many here will have much explaining to do at the Judgment . . .

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Pamela >> Because if scripture tells us that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to ALL men and woman would the Lord truly keep the woman silent?
========

In other words, you are going to run somewhere else and dig up some fool’s gold and pretend that trumps Paul’s “Lord’s Commandment” right here in 1Corinthians 14! Right? Do you really want to know why the womenfolk are told to remain silent in the called out assembly? It is for your OWN GOOD. The emotional response from the womenfolk [not you Kim : 0 )] is that Terral and NoFool are ‘women-haters’ trying to “Lord Over” the women. Baaaaaaaa!!! Scripture is teaching a difference between man (spirit witness) and woman (water witness), because the family unit is a microcosm (smaller version) of the Father (spirit), Son (blood) and Holy Spirit (water) Themselves. There is a ‘veil’ line between the Son and the Holy Spirit, heaven and earth AND between man and woman; which is why she prays with her head covered. 1Cor. 11:10. Woman is like the ‘body’ of a man and he is like the ‘spirit’ manipulating the body as a vehicle of expression. Can there be life apart from the spirit (man) AND the body (woman)? No! However, the ‘spirit’ stands in the glory position and the body (flesh) is to remain silent! Paul says for you (the saved woman) to use your own husband (saved man) like your body gains life from your own life giving ‘spirit.’ Stop trying to compete with your man over who is the ‘spirit’ in the equation and take the place given you BY GOD HIMSELF. What is the correct order of things in God’s Book?

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“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.” 1Corinthians 11:3.
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God > Christ > Man > Woman. NONE of those values are EQUAL or Scripture would have simply said so.

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Pamela >> What would be the point of given a woman a gift if she was to keep silent about it? A saved woman in right standing with her husband is operating according the will of God.[/quote]
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My early years were filled with instruction from the ministries of two fine women, because quite frankly the men around me had no stature “IN” Christ at all. Katherine Smith is a GIANT among men and I owe her much for laying a fantastic foundation in me upon which God has been building now for decades. For those and other reasons, I am also torn between a literal interpretation of Paul’s teachings AND a watered down version of my own making allowances for the powerful women teachers that have already been placed in my path. At the end of the day, our stand must be on the truth of God’s Living Word; which teaches women must keep silent in the congregation. Everyone who deviates from the “Lord’s Commandment” (1Cor. 14:37-38) will certainly suffer loss in the day we are Judged (2Cor. 5:10). I cannot allow my personal experiences, that represent the exception to the rule, force me into turning a blind eye to the truth of Scripture. The ladies who assisted me were the wife and daughter of a truly great Bible teacher who had died by the time I came along and no ‘man’ had yet to stand up to assume the leadership duties of the congregation. My best advice for a woman with your kind of gifts is to focus your ministry on helping other women and if their husbands come along then so be it.

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Pamela >> Though I do agree and always have when this kind of topic arises: I don't believe a woman should preach or place herself in a place where she has authority over her husband. To do so is to be out of order. What if her husband gave her permission to do so, would it then be okay? Still pondering that one and asking my husband....
========

Heh . . . If the husband says it’s okay to sin, then will God turn a blind eye? I think not. The wise woman is submissive to her husband and utilizes him like your body derives life from your very own spirit. Can your body surpass the spirit and gain life? NO! That is the lesson God is trying to instill in the members of Christ’s body UNDER Him as the Head. I cannot command you to assume the right attitude and position under your husband as your head. That is up to you and nobody else. For me to try and tell you is the part you girls are all worked up about. :0)

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Pamela >> To avoid unpleasentries with you, I will read your response if you care to respond, but won't be responding back to you....You just to Narcissistic plus no one but you wins your debates....Oh and dont' forget to look below to get the true definion of what a lecture truly is, as this post does not consititute a lecture either....For crying out loud! Holy smokes batman! <--------"WOMAN EMOTIONS GOING ON THE LOSE, TAKE COVER!"
=========

You can become overly emotional with me anytime you wish Pamela. :0) I just call them like I see them for the benefit of the readers making up their minds about these topics. We must agree this is a very difficult and tedious topic that gets folks up in arms every day. Please remember again that ‘debate’ is about the presentation of opposing views ONLY and your readers are the winners every time either of us hits near the mark by presenting ‘the truth’ of God’s Living Word on any of these topics. It is all about showing yourself approved “to GOD” (2Tim. 2:15) and everyone else benefiting along the way. :0)

BTW, there is no such thing as a male or female “IN” Christ Jesus (Gal. 3:28), which is the topic of another thread. Thank you again for writing and God bless you,

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

WOW I dont know how things get so out of whack see I didnt tell Angela to take a chill pill at all. It was you, Terral. You think you are the only one that studies the Bible on here. I maybe misunderstanding but it appears you are on this forum and you think you know it all.
We all have different beliefs and sometimes we will be wrong and sometimes we will be right but I promise you one thing my friend, you are not always right.
I am feeling you need some guideness and humility in your life. I feel you need some love in your life because you dont show it here one the forum. I know you dont understand it yet but in time you will.
Please, stop posting something about me that is not true.
Kim

Actually to correct you sir, I was not defending Miki...I was talking directly to you only and responded in the manner of what you alone have previously posted...Miki is a big girl and can handle her own battles...

To your shear amazement Terral, I am a woman whom is submissive to her husband and he is the head of our home....I gladly and lovingly turn that right over to him...He is also my Pastor, for he pastors the church the Lord has given him trust over....
The difference I see Terral is with your presentation of YOUR belief is that is uncaring and presented without love...That approach trends to turn people off to what you have to say because you come off as a bully rather than allowing Christ in you to shine forth....WHile most seek what the riches of the world can give, we seek the precious pearls in His word...I am blessed to have such a husband...I am blessed to have a wonderful elder in our church whom knows the Word and teaches us all. But we don't stop at that Terral, we take what was presented and seek it out on our own....

You know as well as I that only God can reveal the truth in His word...

What I see is a shame in the body of Christ is that we are to busy telling each other "YOUR WRONG AND I AM RIGHT!" It's not about that, it's about spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ and seeking out the lost. Miki, AngelainPraise, Kim48, NoFool, you and myself are not lost, we all have accepted Jesus Christ as our Savior. WE all seek Him daily and He is faithful to us all....We are not the lost in the lost world.....A person who has been serving the Lord for a while will hold to what they know when someone comes along as you do and presents the Word in the manner you do....They see you as arrogant, rude, condesending and a know it all NOT as someone coming in to open blind eyes...WE are not pharisee's and saudisee's (sp) that need to be handled in a bolder manner....Miki, Angelainpraise, Kim48, NoFool you and I are each love in the same manner in the same measure before the Lord.

If truth holds, you will see this post as "fluffy words"....But you don't see heart that laid it bare....You see first of all Kim48 and I don't really like one another, Miki and I are not that close, AngelainPraise I have spoken with once and don't really know her, and NoFool reminds me of my eldest son because he is into music and has produced it...So you see, I can look at each one of these people and say, I know they are saved, I can say I hold a measure of love for each one because they are my brother's and sisters in Christ, I can say the truth as I believe it and one of them may come in and say, "hog wash!" We will have a measure of disagreement and move along...Check past post the evidence is there...The only thing I've had to over come is bitterness with one of the people mention. I can say the same of you Terral, but you go on and on and make people turn from you....This forum is not hardcore, it can be soft and caring at times and sometimes we get a visit from an atheist and things stir about, and sometimes we get people like you, mean and hardcore in your flesh....Jesus Christ didn't even bring the Word in the manner you do....He knew people would not listen or accept it...If you love me as sister in Christ, the love would be evident. You can say, "Well I do love you that is why I am trying to open your eye's to the truth." No, it's not your job...It is my husbands and mine...

Terral says: "I just call them like I see them"

That's our answer girls and don't stick up for no fool because he agrees with this guy and is proud of him for speaking up.

Pamela is right. Terral can quote scripture but he doesn't have a speck of understanding. He's a clanging gong sent by the enemy to sow discord among the bretheren.

Did anybody ever tell you God hates that?

Read it and weep Terral for you need it.
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WHAT IS HEADSHIP?
by Ray C. Stedman

Chapter eleven of First Corinthians has become a great battlefield of the 20th century. It is a very complex chapter that deals with the question, "Are Women Fully Human? or Are They Only Humans, j.g. (Junior Grade)?" This passage will deal with the question of male headship and female subjection, and other issues of today. It used to be that the focus of the chapter was on the question, "Should Women Wear Hats in Church?" but looking over this congregation, I can see that is a long past issue. It has now become a question, not so much of women wearing hats in church, but of whether they are going to wear the pants at home! We shall face these issues that are a part of the swirl of controversy that has escalated into the Feminist Movement of our day. The apostle introduces this with these words in Chapter 11, Verse 2:

I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you. (1 Cor 11:2 RSV)

Not all traditions are bad. We have seen in this letter that Christianity includes not only the revelation of what Paul calls "the mysteries of God," those great, marvelous, insightful unfoldings of truth about humanity, and about life, that are undiscoverable by the natural mind, but it also includes, as this passage makes clear, certain important and essential traditions, i.e., practices that have been handed down from generation to generation. In Chapter 11 there are two traditions the apostle looks at, the tradition of male headship which dates from the creation of mankind itself, from the earliest dawn of human history, and the second one is the tradition of the Lord's Supper dating from the beginning of the church, as it was instituted in the Upper Room. In Verse 3 the apostle declares the great tradition of headship as a principle to govern the people of God for all time. Then in the following verses (4-16), he clarifies the practice of this principle under the conditions that were obtaining in Corinth and the world of the 1st century. Here is the principle:

But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God. (1 Cor 11:3 RSV)

When the apostle uses the word head here he is using the ordinary word for the hairy knob that sits on top of the neck, which contains the brain, and the eyes, ears, nose and mouth, and which, even in the ancient world, was understood to be the control center of the body. There are some today who would argue that the ancients did not understand that, but I think it is obvious they did, because four of our five senses are centered in the head. They well knew that to remove the head from the body ended the life and activity of that body. Thus Herodias, the wife of Herod, ordered the head of John the Baptist brought to her on a platter because she knew that would slow John down to a point where she could handle him.

Now when head is used metaphorically, figuratively, as it is here, it refers to priority in function. That is what the head of our body does; it runs the body; it is in charge; it is the direction setter of the body. Used metaphorically, therefore, the word head means primarily leadership, and thus it is used in this passage. This is clear, I think, from the threefold use of it that the apostle makes here. The one in controversy is the second one, "the head of the woman is her husband," but he brackets this with two other examples of headship so that we might understand from them what the middle one means.

The first one is, "the head of every man is Christ." There is the declaration of Christ's right to lead the whole human race. He is the leader of the race in the mind and thinking of God, and ultimately, as Scripture tells us, there will come a day when all humanity, without exception, shall bow the knee and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (cf, Rom 14:11, Phil 2:11). So whether men know it or not, Christ is their head, and they are responsible to follow him. That is the whole objective of life for any man who wishes to fulfill his manhood. Of course, that is only seen in practice in the believer, and then only to a limited degree, but it is stated very positively here. In the book of Hebrews it says that Christ is "the pioneer of our salvation" (Heb 5:9, 12:2), the one who goes before; the one who opens the way. This is the sense here of this metaphorical use of the word head. Christ is the leader of the race, the determiner of every man's destiny, the One to be followed.

Now move down to the third level of headship mentioned here, "the head of Christ is God." Here we have a manifestation of headship demonstrated for us in history. Jesus, the Son of God, equal to the Father in his deity, nevertheless, when he assumes humanity, submits himself to the leadership of the Father. Everywhere Jesus went he stated this. "I do always those things which please my Father." On one occasion he said, "My meat is to do my Father's will, and to please him who sent me," (cf, John 4:34). On another occasion he said, "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30), i.e., we work together. He adds on still another occasion, "My Father is greater than I," (John 14:28). That does not challenge the equality of the members of the Godhead, but when Christ became man he voluntarily consented to take a lower position than the Father. It is in that sense he says, "My Father is greater than I."

Those two headships help us to understand the meaning of the central one, "the head of the woman is the man." The RSV says, "the head of the woman is her husband" but that is interpretation. The word used is aner, the male. Though the subsequent passage has in view a married woman, this general statement of the principle of headship has in view men and women in the way they function in society. But it must be remembered that headship never means domination. It is a voluntary commitment, carried out in practice out of a conviction that God's will is best achieved by this means.

It is to be most visible in marriage where it manifests that role of support which a woman undertakes voluntarily when she marries a man. He is to be leader and she assumes a support role to help him fulfill the objectives of their life together as Christ, his head, makes clear. Now if she does not want to do that she is perfectly free not to undertake that role. No woman should get married if she does not want to. This is a role that she is perfectly free to forego if she chooses. If she wants to give herself to the pursuit of a career for her own objectives, she has every right to do so. But then she ought not to get married, because marriage means that she desires to help advance the objectives and goals of her husband. He becomes, therefore, the leader of the two.

Now that is the principle of headship, and the apostle has stated it as clearly and as objectively as it can be stated. It does not involve the idea of origin so much as it does direction. This is the way headship is used in other parts of the Scripture as well. In Ephesians we are told that Christ is the head of the church which is his body, by which it means he is its leader and has the right to set the ultimate direction of the relationship. In Verse 4 and on the apostle applies this principle to the practice of the church, especially as it was lived within the Eastern culture of that 1st century world. So he says in Verse 4:

Any man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head -- it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. (1 Cor 11:4-6 RSV)

Two things are very important to notice in that paragraph: One: The center of Paul's concern is the public ministry of the Word of God. He is talking here about Christians, about the church, the gathering of believers together in a public assembly. In order to properly function in that capacity, a woman should wear a veil, but a man should not. That is the second thing to note. The veil comes in as the symbol of the acceptance and understanding of the principle of headship which he has just declared. Where public ministry is involved it is just as important that man should not be covered as that a woman should. That was the application of headship in the culture and custom of that day and time.

It is significant to note that both men and women were free to exercise ministry. Both could pray and prophesy. As we have seen from other passages of Scripture, and will come to see most clearly in the fourteenth chapter, prophesying is what today we call preaching. It is expounding the Word of God, taking the Scriptures and making them shine and illuminate life. Either a woman or a man could do that, but it was very important how they did it. That is the emphasis this passage makes. They must do it in two different ways, the male as a man, the woman as a woman. That is the central emphasis of this text.

If the man does not pray or prophesy as a man should in that culture then he dishonors his head. It is very remarkable that Paul would say that a man, ministering in public, should not have anything on his head, for the practice among the Jews was for men to wear a head covering when they ministered. In this neighborhood we often see Jewish people walking around, and the men will have the yarmulke (a beanie, we would call it) on their head. It is the prescribed covering for the head, and no orthodox male Jew would ever think of reading the Scripture or ministering in public without it. But Paul the Apostle, raised in Judaism, says that if a Christian man does that he is dishonoring Christ, his head.

On the other hand, if a woman does not have a covering (in this 1st century Christian setting) she dishonors her head, her husband. The reason for that was dramatically obvious in Corinth. In this city, the most licentious city of the 1st century, the only women who did not wear a veil were the temple prostitutes. Any woman, therefore, who appeared on the public streets without a veil was opening herself up to the suspicion that she was available to any man who wanted to pay the price, that she was nothing more than a temple prostitute. It was indeed disgraceful, shameful, for a woman to appear in public, and especially to minister the Word in a Christian assembly, without that sign of acknowledgment of the principle of headship in her life.

Notice that Paul says, "if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil." Mark the if. In some cultures it would not be disgraceful for a woman to be uncovered. It is not today. It is no longer shameful that a woman does not wear a hat in church. She is not open to abuse or suspicion of her moral character is she does not. It is only where it is disgraceful, where that is the usual interpretation put upon being uncovered, that this applies. If it is not disgraceful then it is another matter. But where it is disgraceful, as in Corinth, then Paul says that if she does not want to wear the sign of a relationship under headship, then she ought to go the whole way and shave her head like a prostitute because that is what she is proclaiming herself to be by her refusal to wear the veil and submit to custom. Now, immediately, the apostle follows this with an explanation. Here we come to the very heart of the passage. He tells us why all this is true.

For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) (1 Cor 11:7-9 RSV)

That is a very crucial paragraph, and one that we must note carefully and understand fully. You will notice the apostle does not base his reasons on any local custom. He goes back to creation to establish this. The principle of headship is something true from the beginning of mankind. Paul does just as Jesus did on the subject of divorce. He does not bother with the interpretations and amendments that came by the Law of Moses, but he goes back to God's original created order. So does the apostle here. He says that, in the beginning, man was made in the image and glory of God. Image is the full manifestation of something. In this case it is God himself. Man was made in God's image in order that any creature, looking at a man, would see the likeness, the very nature of God. That is the dignity of humanity.

What we must bear clearly in mind is that, when Genesis states the man was made in the image of God, it was made before the two sexes were separated. Adam was first created, and it was of Adam, before Eve was separated from him, that it is said that man is the image and glory of God. This means that after the separation woman shares the image and the glory of God equally with the male. They are both included when it is said that man was made in the image and the glory of God. That is why in Genesis 5 (not Genesis 1 now, but Genesis 5) it says that God created them in the beginning male and female and he named them Adam (Gen 5:1-2). He did not name them the Adams's, he named them Adam. Therefore, the woman bears equally with the male the image and glory of God. That is very important. The male, however, is called upon to manifest a certain aspect of the glory of God different from that of the woman. We shall understand that better when we understand the meaning of glory.

What is glory? As it is used here, the word refers to something in which one takes delight. We have often sung the hymn, In the Cross of Christ I Glory. What do we mean by that? We mean the cross is something in which we find supreme delight. It is that principle of life by which we see ourselves cut off from the old Adam life and freed from the control of sin and death; thus set free to be the men and women God intended us to be. Understanding that we sing quite properly (along with the Apostle Paul), "In the Cross of Christ I Glory." Paul could write to the Thessalonians and say, "Who is our crown of rejoicing? Are you not our glory and our joy?" (cf, 1 Th 2:19). So used, this verse tells us that, when man was created, he was made to reflect the nature of God, and, in that, God takes great delight. He delights in mankind and this is what the male is to represent. That glory of God is to be publicly and openly manifested and that is why the man must not wear a veil. He is not to cover God's creative glory. He is to be unveiled so that the glory of God in creation should be visibly manifest to everyone.

You see this beautifully in the life of Jesus. Everywhere he went he demonstrated the love of God for mankind. Even though the race had turned aside and was far from what it ought to be, everywhere in the ministry of Jesus you see him pouring forth the love of God for man. That is what drew people by great multitudes to hear his words. In him they caught a glimpse of the glory and delight that God takes in humanity and they longed to find the way back to the enjoyment of that delight. Thus in the opening words of John's gospel it says, "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us," and "we beheld his glory," (John 1:14). This is the glory that a man, a male, is called upon to manifest in the ministry of the Word. He is not to be veiled because he is proclaiming that open delight which God takes in the creation of mankind.

But woman is the glory of the man. It is in the woman that the man finds his delight, and, if you do not believe that, just watch a couple of teenagers in love. Woman is the delight of man. The apostle is now dealing with the woman as having been separated from the man. The distinction which obtained when God took Adam's rib and made of it a woman and brought her to man now comes into focus. It involves a private, intimate glory, that intimacy which a man finds in his wife, the intimacy of sexual relationship and of shared love. It is something hidden and private, therefore it is to be symbolized by a veil. It marks something protected, something marked out for a single individual's use. Thus the veil is not a mark of subjection, as many of the commentators say of this passage, it is a mark of intimacy, of privacy, voluntarily assumed by the woman. She is not forced to give herself to the man, she deliberately chooses to do so, but from then on she is marked out as belonging to him.

The nearest equivalent of this in our day is the wedding ring. A wedding ring marks a woman as belonging to another, already claimed. She has given herself freely and voluntarily to a man and she is his, not in a mechanical or merely legal sense, but because she has already surrendered her right to herself to him. That is always the meaning of the veil in the Eastern World. It still is today. A veiled woman walks down a street of an Oriental city today and she is telling the whole world "I am not for sale; I do not belong to anyone but my husband; I am his."

In wearing a veil a woman also gives testimony to the existence of another aspect of the glory of God, the intimacy of delight that is achieved only through redemption. When we enter, by faith in Jesus Christ, into the new birth we discover a glory of God beyond creation. It is redemptive glory. We all have experienced it, if we are Christians. We know the ecstasy of fellowship with God, of worship, of experiencing the beautiful and intimate love relationship of a bride with her bridegroom, described in that marvelous passage in the fifth chapter of Ephesians. That is what a woman manifests in her public ministry when she wears a veil. She is symbolizing that intimate delight which God has in a redeemed mankind. I cannot now dwell on that, though I think it very important, but this is surely why Paul goes on to point out the unique purpose for the creation of woman. "For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."

Woman was taken from man in order that she might share fully his nature. Man and woman are not two different kinds of beings. They do not represent two species of human life. They have differences, but they are of the same basic nature. This is what is meant by 'woman being taken from man.' But, in addition, she is brought to man. She was brought to him that she might be 'for' him. This, I think, is the key thought involved in headship. She is for her husband; she is behind him, backing him up; she is supportive of him; she wants him to succeed and she is deeply involved in the process. She is undergirding him in every way she can, and finding delight in doing so, that together they might achieve the objectives which his head, Christ, has set before them. Now, that is God's ideal of marriage.

In turn, the male is to discover the secrets God has put into his wife, and seek to develop her, so that she will be all that she is capable of being. In doing so he is but advancing his own objectives. This is the argument of Ephesians 5. They are one and no man hates his own flesh. If he hurts his wife he hurts himself; if he ignores her, he is ignoring half of his own life. There is no way that he can achieve the fullness of his manhood in marriage apart from working at developing and encouraging his wife to utilize all the gifts and abilities God has put in her. Thus, the reciprocal relationship so frequently appearing in Scripture on marriage. It is this that creates the beauty of every wedding. When a man and a woman stand together to be married, the marriage ceremony has for centuries recognized that she is giving herself to him, and he promises to treat that gift with kindness, tenderness and loving care. He is not giving himself to her; she is giving herself to him: That is the point. He is responsible to cherish that gift as the most valuable gift that any human has ever given him, and to protect it and guard it. She is basically saying to him those beautiful words in the book of Ruth, "Where you go I will go. Where you live I will live. Your people shall be my people and your God, my God," (cf, Ruth 1:16). Now, if you do not want to do that, then do not get married -- because that is what marriage means. If man or a woman is not willing to assume his or her proper role in marriage, then, by all means, stay single, but when marriage occurs that is what is meant. Paul goes on to add two more important words here from the argument of creation, first:

That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head, because of the angels. (1 Cor 11:10 RSV)

What does he mean by that? Unfortunately the RSV editors have obscured this by translating the word Paul uses as veil. But here he changes the word. He does not say "veil on her head" -- literally it is the word "authority." "That is why a woman ought to have authority on her head, because of the angels." Authority to do what? Surely it is what he has already mentioned, what the whole passage is about: A woman ministering the Word in public. The authority for her to do so is her recognition of the principle of headship. She is to declare that she does not pray or preach apart from her husband, and thus she is to wear a veil which, in that culture, was the sign of such a voluntary partnership.

She is to do so, Paul says, "because of the angels." Now that is somewhat obscure and difficult to interpret, but, in a culture where unveiled women were regarded as idolators and prostitutes, it would be an offense to the angels present in a Christian service for a woman to openly flaunt custom and deny the principle of headship. Angels, we are told, are "ministering spirits, sent forth to minister to those who are heirs of salvation," (cf, Heb 1:14 KJV). They were present at creation, and thus understand the principle of headship. Isaiah 6 indicates that they veil their faces when they worship before the throne of God (cf, Isa 6:2), and so are concerned to preserve the worship of humans from any practice that would deny the distinctives which the sexes are to manifest. In the next two verses Paul balances all this with a strong statement of the equality of men and women in marriage.

(Nevertheless, in the Lord woman is not independent of man nor man of woman; for as woman was made from man, so man is now born of woman. And all things are from God.) (1 Cor 11:11-12 RSV)

Here is a very positive statement of the full equality (as persons) of men and women. There is no inferiority involved. No matter what distortions may have crept in to reduce woman to an inferior status, nevertheless, in the Lord, the original intent of God is restored. Paul carefully declares that man and woman cannot exist without each other. They are equal as persons, distinct as sexes, functioning in a divinely given order which is to be freely accepted by the woman, in order to demonstrate to all the delight of God in his creation and redemption of mankind. If we will carefully think that through we shall find it is a very powerful argument for equality of persons and distinctives of role. Now let me quickly handle the problem of hair.

Judge for yourselves; is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? Does not nature itself teach you that for a man to wear long hair is degrading to him, but if a woman has long hair, it is her pride? For her hair is given to her for a covering. (1 Cor 11:13-15 RSV)

This is really a second argument the apostle gives to support the matter of wearing a veil. He argues now from nature. Not only does God's intent in creation sustain the principle of headship, but nature also illustrates it. Many have struggled over this passage. I have myself, for many years. What is there about nature that indicates that a man with long hair dishonors himself while a woman with long hair is honored? It is not mere intuition, as some suggest, for such an intuition is not universal. But there is a principle that science has come to recognize as true, and it has been true from the very beginning of the race, as far as we can tell. That is the factor of baldness. Geneticists tell us that it takes two genes in a woman to produce baldness, but only one in a man. Some women do get bald, but it is very rare.

Here is a natural factor that has been functioning since the race began which does, indeed, display the very thing that Paul declares. Did you ever see a bald old man with long hair? It is a disgrace! Long hair is usually stringy when it is sparse and with his shining dome sticking up above it makes him look ridiculous. Almost all men, as they grow older, tend to show some degree of baldness, and the older they grow the more ridiculous long hair looks. A young man can get away with long hair, but an older man cannot. Thus there is a factor in nature which demonstrates what Paul claims. Tradition tells us that Paul himself was bald and perhaps this statement comes out of his own experience.

But a woman is a different story. Many of you know that my wife's mother lives with us. She turned 91 last August, and like anyone of that age her skin has lost its tone and its beauty. Many wrinkles have lined her face and she displays all the signs of aging, yet her hair (which she usually wears in a bun), when let down, falls well below her waist. It is a beautiful thing and is her pride and glory. At 91 her hair is as beautiful as it was when she was a young girl. In fact it has only a few streaks of gray in it. This is exactly what the apostle claims here. Nature demonstrates that a woman has been given more beautiful hair than men in order that she might more easily manifest the principle of headship. It is remarkable that this was written after all Paul's insistence about wearing a veil in Corinth. Now Paul says that her hair was given to her for a covering. Here is the beauty of the Scripture. This was not written just for Corinth, or even for the 1st century, but for any and every age. This is what the apostle means. In a culture where the wearing of veils is not a custom, then a woman's long hair (longer than her husband's), is an adequate expression of the principle of headship. Surely this will help us today when the wearing of veils has lost all its original significance. But, because in the Roman world veil-wearing was still the custom, he concludes the passage with these words.

If any one is disposed to be contentious, we recognize no other practice, nor do the churches of God. (1 Cor 11:16 RSV)

There is no need to argue the point, he says. The universal custom in the Roman world was for the woman to declare this principle of headship by wearing a veil, therefore there is no point in arguing about it. It was such a widespread custom among the churches that anybody not doing so was immediately opening themselves up to disapprobation, yet where that was not the case then the woman's hair, longer than her husband's, was adequate testimony to the principle of headship. Now what does this passage say to us? Let me gather it up very quickly. It says: First, men, by all means take your responsibility as spiritual leaders in the home. You have a responsibility to your head to know the Word of God and to see that it shapes and molds the atmosphere, the climate of your home. That is your responsibility. Women, your responsibility is to follow your husband in these matters, and to support him and encourage him. If you are unwilling to do that, do not get married, but if you marry, support your husband's efforts toward a godly family. Back him up when he moves in those directions. Let him know you are behind him, for him, and supportive of him. That is the way y