Does Man have Free will? I have been in some serious debate recently on this subject. I would like to know what you believe.

I believe so--many do not. Do a search with "+free +will" and you'll probably find a topic where this was hashed out a bit recently. Of course we never came to an agreement, but see if you can find Shekel's comments on the subject. Maybe he'll come and post on this . . . hope so.

I believe we are free to choose to accept Christ and do what is right or reject Christ and do what is wrong and face the consequences of that. God knows us well enough to know what we will do, but He allows us the freedom of choice. My thoughts, and like I said, many disagree!

Philippians 2:13
for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

You're quoting Paul.

Let's get the verse before it, too, so as not to take it completely out of context . . .

Paul also said,

Philippians 2:12, 13 (KJV)

12. Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

If we're purely predestined, as Calvinists believe, and have no power to affect our own salvation (either choose or reject), then some are predestined to salvation and some are predestined to damnation, no matter what they do. Paul obviously did not believe that, if you look at his other writings.

One example:

1 Timothy 2: 3-6

3. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4. Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6. Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.


God would like for us all to be saved, and Jesus gave Himself for all, and not just for the relatively few predestined for salvation.


Romans 2:1-11

1. THEREFORE thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4. Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5. But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6. Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8. But unto them that are , and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9. Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10. But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11. For there is no respect of persons with God.


If God is going to render to every man according to his deeds, why would He do so if those deeds were not the man's deeds at all? If the man had no choice, how could he be judged? What would be the point of the "patient continuance in well doing" of verse 7 if none of it was you anyway? God is no respecter of persons--to me that means He does NOT esteem one above another, or predestine one to heaven and another to hell. We all have an equal chance, and we all have the chance to choose and to obey the truth and to obey righteousness (verse 8 above).


In the same letter, Paul told the Romans that their conduct would determine their eternal reward: “Know ye not … his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Rom. 6:16.)


Romans 11: 17-21 hints that “the elect” can fall from grace and thus lose their reward:

17. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18. Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

20. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

21. For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Hebrews 3:14 talks about the necessity of holding “stedfast unto the end:”

For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;


Why would that be necessary if we were predestined or had a "golden ticket?"

Also 1 Cor. 9:27 says,

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

He obviously feels that there is a life of faith to be lived, and it has to be lived "stedfast unto the end." This doesn't sound like somebody who feels predestined to heaven no matter what.

If we had no choice in our eternal destiny, why did Paul constantly exhort us to righteousness? That would hardly seem necessary if he believed that we were predestined and had no choice.

From these scriptures, it seems pretty clear to me that Paul at least did not believe in predestination—at least as a Calvinist defines the term.



Just a few scriptures--there are many more.

No

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps

Even with the free will to choose, I want the Lord to direct my way.

Proverbs 3: 5,6
"Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct thy paths."


I want Him to direct me--I don't want to go follow my own way. I don't want to do anything that is not His will for me. I want Him to guide every step I take. But to my understanding, the fact is that I can choose. There are many who choose to completely ignore the Lord and what He has done for them, when they could choose Him and eternal life. That's not what He would want them to do, but it's what they are free to do.

I'd love to be sitting at the feet of Jesus and hearing it all from His mouth. That would be wonderful! Then there would be no doubt (hopefully!) what exactly things meant--I'm looking forward to having that chance someday and seeing those apparent contradictions go away. It will fall into place--and it's just a matter of time--hopefully not too much time!!!!

You know you just did!

Ok, this is sounding familiar, like something I heard a few months ago but could never figure out, from ladynada. Maybe you should start a topic so this one doesn't get hijacked! (Yeah, I probably hijacked it hours ago! Sorry!)

I don't know... does it seem merciful to me that a loving God would destined someone to hell?

I think perhaps we do have a free well, and yet our paths are set. Is nothing too impossible for God? It may be like the mysterious Trinity. Very real, but hard to explain.

Of course not Julie, that is why I believe only hell, death, satan and his works shall suffer the second death in the Lake of Fire.

Aye, Jack. I have read Revelations 20:11-15 before, but I will tell you a secret that is not; that I pray is a revelation from the Holy Spirit.

Tell me, what does Genesis 22:16-18 say and compare to Revelation 15:2 ?

May the Holy Spirit enlighten you, brother!

Well, HB,

The Spirit has not enlightened me on your gnosticistic secret.

I've read those scripts several times now - in response to your suggestion.

Maybe I'm not following this topic closely enough.

Dani

Dear Dani, these are not my secrets nor are they gnostic, for these are verses clearly printed in scripture.

What these two scriptures have in common is that they speak of humanity, all of it. From Genesis 22, God spoke to Abraham and he promised that Abraham's seed would bring forth humanity as abundant as the sands of the sea shore.

And in Revelation 15 that sand of the sea shore is seen in heaven as glass mingled with fire, for what becomes of sand when plied with fire that it is purified to become glass? Thus shall be the rest of humanity made to bow before the Lord when they had not in this life time. And appointed above this sea of glass are the believers who have bowed to Christ in this life time.

This is how Christ shall save all.

Ah. I was seeing thru darkened glass...

Very beautiful Humble Bob.

Dani

But who does the Lord call onto destruction other than hell, death, satan and satan's work? The Lord hath named them for they are each an unclean spirit that dwell within the flesh and lash onto the soul feeding vanity and giving each person a carnal mind.

Here are their names

the dogs
sorcery
whoremonger
murder
idolatry
lying

and others too

atheism
the false prophet
the beast of government and ideology

These are unclean spirits that corrupted the works of God from the beginning, and they are of the work of the enemy who was a murderer from the beginning. But the Lord shall remove these and they shall be destroyed in the Lake of Fire that burns for ever. These are the chaff of mankind, the tare planted by the devils work, and their destruction shall be permanent.

For Christ is the mediator of a new covenant and a promise for all. Here is what that new covenant says

Hebrews 8:11-12
And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Be greatful that Christ has called upon all those who believe for in the end they shall stand above the great sea of humanity. But seek the Lord constantly and learn his perfect plan by every design, which comes by love for Christ and of the Holy Spirit. Then you will be lifted up even higher.

Hey Jack, did you read the rest of HB'S post??

Revelations 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Hell is not cast into "hell." Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire. Hell and the Lake of Fire are not the same.

...because people cannot believe that God is cruel to predestine people into hell, they believe then in free will to explain these things, but these postings are to show that God's plan is perfect in every way in that he saves all. This cannot be understood so long as one believes in free will, for if they do they shall believe many people will be tormented for all eternity before God, that they believe in a just God rather than a merciful God.

John 12:47
And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

This is why Christ came, suffered, died and was resurrected for, and it is not something I can re-think, but it is something that I believe for that is how the Lord made me

Peace to you, dear Jack.

If one was to say that not one person is going to hell, that, I would have say is in error. Hell was created for those that are against Him. Look at what these scriptures say.
2 Timothy 2
20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for noble purposes and some for ignoble.

Ro 9:21 What if God, choosing to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the objects of His wrath--prepared for distruction? [22] What if He did this to make the glory of His riches known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory.

God created the angels and 1/3 of them fell. He created us as well and not of all human creation will choose Him either. That is why He prepared a place for them and a place for His called.

Holman Bible Dictionary

HUMAN FREE WILL

The ability the Creator gave people to make meaningful decisions, especially concerning their relationship to God. Because humanity was created in the image of God, freedom is an inherent part of human nature (Genesis 1:26).

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Since this freedom is like God's freedom, it includes the power of choice. Mankind's actions thus derive from the voluntary actions of the human will. Outside forces can influence the human will to take a particular course of action but cannot force it to do so. Free will has been the subject of considerable debate over the years. Biblical evidence indicates that God Himself does not predetermine the choices that mankind will make. This is especially true in relation to God's will (Matthew 23:37; John 7:17).

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Mankind has the rational power to choose between good and evil and to bear full responsibility for that choice (Deuteronomy 24:16, Job 19:4; Jeremiah 31:30; Romans 14:12; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 22:12).

Deuteronomy 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

Job 19:4 And be it indeed that I have erred, mine error remaineth with myself.

Jeremiah 31:30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.

Romans 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

This freedom gives to humanity the power to be deliberate, determinate, and creative in choosing the plans, purposes, and directions of life. It creates the possibility of true relationships with other people and with God.

The human will, while free, is subject to the influences brought upon it from within (Mark 7:23; Romans 12:2).

Mark 7:23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

Romans 12:12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;

Sin became an inherited part of the inner nature of mankind at the fall in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:6).

Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

The influence of sin upon the will of mankind is so vast that it modifies and limits the freedom God gave to humanity (John 8:34).

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

The impact of sin upon mankind's will is such that believers still face hard moral choices and often feel frustrated by the power and compulsion of sin in their lives (Romans 7:19-24).


Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Through Jesus Christ and the salvation, regeneration, and sanctification that He brings, the will can be freed to function as God created it (John 8:32-36).

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

The freedom that Christ gives allows the will to make its choices following the guidance of the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17) and not the requirements of the law (Galatians 2:16-20).

2 Corinthians 3:17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The chief influence upon the will for the Christian should be Christlike love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

Out of the seedbed of this love will grow other influences that will enable the will to make more and more Christlike choices.

Christ bought freedom of the human will. However, that is no excuse to use freedom as a way to live selfishly (1 Peter 2:15-16).

1 Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

Freedom of will is to be used to choose to obey Christ in all things and to serve His purposes on earth and thus to glorify Him (Romans 6:17-23).

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


The chief use of the free will of mankind should be to seek to know and follow the will of God (Matthew 12:50; John 7:17; Ephesians 6:6; James 4:15).

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

James 4:15 For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

Since God gave mankind the privilege of a free will and then intervened through Jesus Christ when sin changed this freedom to bondage, He gives mankind the privilege to make individual choices. This includes the relation of mankind to God. Salvation and obedience are left to mankind's free will (Romans 10:12-13). God elects all people to be saved who will call upon His name (Romans 10:1-21). It is left up to the individual's free choice to accept or reject salvation and to accept the consequences of the choice.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. 5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. 6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. 19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. 20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. 21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.


Bob Sheffield


http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2896


WHOSOEVER WILL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD.....hummm......

But those postings that were made never said that no one shall go into hell. Rather they said all shall be saved.

That is what I believe.

Know the difference then when the Lord spoke of he being the stone that breaks a person and the stone that grinds the person into power. One shall say he or she has free will to choose the other shall say there is no will in he or she but the Lord's. Then shall one understand what Jesus meant when he said

John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

Even Christ knew this. These things are written with an honest spirit in me, not one that seeks vain glory. Never did I say were these my words but always say I pray are from the Holy Spirit, for is it written

John 7:38
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water

But having read these word, seek then the counsel of Christ in your quite time and prayer. Lay them at his feet saying to the Lord that you wish to lay down your flesh and carnal understanding for the Lord's truth. Tip toe in quietness about the foot of his throne bowed low asking and asking, and never in your own vainness to understand the Lord's truth. He will shew you.

Then, I will also learn from those that can see and hear as I am deaf and blind.

Amen.

HB you are a humble spirit indeed. When I was in my sinful flesh, I was not in the WORD of GOD. I didn't understand that HIS WORD was for me. I had chosen the path much traveled down. It was a wide path. Now, many people prayed for me that I might see JESUS face to face, and change from a wicked and evil person. Today I know the LORD and I know JESUS.

Was I in free will in my sinful self?

Was I made new in HIS PERFECT WILL, when I accepted JESUS?


The will is free. We have the opprotunity to choose to live in sin or to choose to live for JESUS. It is simple. For me to live, is JESUS.

Free will= choices we make

GOD gives us the ability to choose.

Yes I agree, HB you are a humble spirit indeed. We all have our own understandings of what the Word means, and then we each have a revealed knowledge of what the word says.

Let us take this conversation to the very beginning and look in Genesis.

In the Garden of Eden the Lord God laid before Adam and Eve 3 trees to choose from:

Gen.2:8 Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. [9] And the Lord God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground--trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food (1). In the middle of the garden were the tree of life (2) and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (3).

How does this fit into "will?" Adam and Eve was given the opportunity to choose what tree they would pick from each and every day. They were instructed by God not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Just like us, we have to choose from these trees. We have the choice of free will, but our choice is going to have some type of consequence either it be in the will or out of the will of God.

God gives us the same right as He gave Adam and Eve and that is the power of choice. Even though He already knows what those choices are going to be, we still have them. Each thing we do is already predestined by the Father. So do we have free will, well ask yourself did the first two people on earth have it? Yes, they did and this all fits into God's plan.

I get this deep into my spirit that we are thinking that our life is our own, when it is not. Our life belongs to one that gave it, God the Father. I believe when we lay hold of that we won't worry about things such as this. It is His life to do what He wants with it, for He created me and even if I don't have free will and I am God's string puppet....WELL PRAISE GOD ANYWAY!!!!!!!!!!!

Amen Pamela! I never thought of it that way, but Praise God, so what... at least I'm HIS!

These scriptures say He gave you free will to choose between all that is laid before you.

Isaiah 66
3 Just as they have chosen their own ways, And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So will I choose their delusions, And bring their fears on them; Because, when I called, no one answered, When I spoke they did not hear; But they did evil before My eyes, And chose that in which I do not delight."

Deuteronomy 30
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Isaiah 7
15 Curds and honey He shall eat, that He may know to refuse the evil and choose the good.

It is your choice.



Charlie

Thanks to everyone for their input on this topic, which is, as some have said very debatable.
I forgive you Jack for hijacking my thread

I just can't come to the conclusion that God predestins us. From the very begining, Adam and Eve, God gave them choice. If God predestins why would he allow all mankind to turn from him and ultimately he would have to destroy them? (The flood). According to scripture salvation is a choice. I do believe God is all powerful and all knowing. He knows in advance what choices we will make, but that does not negate mans responsibility to make the right decision according to Gods word.
Scripture teaches us that God loves each and every one of us and he makes salvation available to those who believe. I know people that have passed and did not believe. Did God predestin these people to Hell? People that he loved as much as he loves us. Or did these people make the wrong choice. Hell is eternal punishment not a time out. I just can't believe an all loving God would predestin anyone of his children to Hell for eternity.

Thanks again for your input. I enjoyed every post here. In him

Short answer!



God's Will. Universal salvation!



Man's Will. That way looks easier and more fun, let's take it!
j

Gods been showing me things lately about free will, election, Past present and future reality...calvanism....I hope l will be able to explain and present it.

It's given me an urgency to seek and save the lost.

I do believe in free well so I would have to say yes

Did Jesus die for all?

or did he die for a selected few?

I see I need to do a little study on Romans 9