http://www.grandunifiedprophecies.blogspot.com/

I will reply to any person reading this blog- if they will use short excerpts (not the whole blog please) with short comments, questions or rebuttals.

Orates

Hi

There is no one week left in the prophecy of Daniel 9:

So the whole blog is just ..........................well it is just plain wrong.

First I want to thank all of the readers who were brave enough to read my blog and respond. This shows that some of the 8000 plus readers of this forum are not adverse to studying and commenting on new and controversial ideas on Biblical Prophecy. I applaud that there are a small minority who will seek the truth from among all the false interpretations out there and are not sheep following the established wolves. I am glad that the spirit of discernment exists among younger readers with their insightful comments and replys to this forum.

Now could someone please interpret what the writer above is saying- I believe he is speaking in tongues!

Orates

Yes. he said the link is nonsense based on misconceptions of scripture. There is only going to be 3.5 years of tribulation and there won’t be any treaty and the anti-christ has been here for quite sometime as has been the beast the mark and the image. The Israel of the flesh that rejects Christ is never going to be anything more than another nation to be destroyed by the great tribulation.


Charlie

Hi


I said all of those things in that post..................... wow you read as much into my posts as you do into the scriptures.


Quote
Now could someone please interpret what the writer above is saying- I believe he is speaking in tongues!
End Quote

Mt:13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

true then and true today.


Please show me in Daniel 9 where it says it is a prophecy for end times.

Here are all the references to the end days in the book of Daniel

Daniel 8:17, Daniel 8:19, Daniel11:27, Daniel 11:35, Daniel 11:40, Daniel 12:4 Daniel 12:9

Notice that the term end of times or end days or time of the end is not used once in Chapter 9. Why is that? Baptist and Pentecostal Christians, to name just a few, believe that the final week is a prophecy for end times. Why, if it is a prophecy for end times, does Daniel not say so, Daniel and Jesus repeatedly say it about other end time prophecies (ie: chapters 8 and 11,12).

It would seem that this prophecy does not deal with the end times. To say it does is to add your own meaning and understanding to Gods word.

>>>Mt:13:15: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. true then and true today.<<<

I am not defending Orates post in the least, but this is to just set something aright here....

The scripture you posted here is totally out of context and appears to be given in a haughty spirit.

The scripture of Mt 13:15 is true of Israel then and now. It is about how God blinded them that the times of the gentiles might be fulfilled. They still have not received Christ as the Messiah and that was all a part of the grande scheme of things from day one. The logic of God, whose ways are higher than ours. For if the Jews had received Jesus as the Messiah, there would be no plan for the rest of the world. One needs to be eternally thankful that God in His infinite wisdom, blinded Israel until this day. Otherwise we would not be in the salvation plan of God. There is much Romans scripture indicating this. But they will be grafted in again. And we were warned that we can be replaced if need be.

Truly, He spake in parables for a reason. Let us not then misinterpret that wonderful will.

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Yes. he said the link is nonsense based on misconceptions of scripture. There is only going to be 3.5 years of tribulation and there won’t be any treaty and the anti-christ has been here for quite sometime as has been the beast the mark and the image. The Israel of the flesh that rejects Christ is never going to be anything more than another nation to be destroyed by the great tribulation.


Charlie
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I think there might be some confusion with Daniels's 70th week here. Most prophecy interpretors from the Dallas Seminary School believe that a treaty is signed by the Antichrist which starts a 7 year period of disaster called the Tribulation. My blog says that there will be a treaty, but it won't necessarily be signed by the Antichrist-because then he would be revealed before his time (he is revealed by taking over the sanctuary fortress 3 1/2 years after the treaty is signed). He could be a part of the process incognito- but I doubt it.

Second- even though Daniel's 70th begins with a treaty- the first 3 1/2 years are fairly peaceful- with the world crying peace and safety- then sudden destruction comes upon them in the last 3 1/2 year period, which starts with the great tribulation or persecution of Christians- when they refuse to accept an invisible mark to buy and sell. After that the Russian Confederacy and the Arabs invades Israel ousting the Antichrist. This is the beginning of Jacob's trouble. The Chinese invade from the East and the Antichrist regroups from the north and they all meet in Israel for the final battle of Armageddon- this is the time of the Wrath. Any Chrisitan or Jewish believer hiding in the wilderness left alive just before the Wrath begins is raptured out along with the Two Witnesses and the 144,000. Then Jesus returns to earth with His Saints and the surviving Jews in Jerusalem- who finally accept their Messiah when He appears- flee into the valley formed by the splitting of the Mt. of Olives from the touch of Jesus's foot.

P.S. I was wondering where the readers of this site get their beliefs on prophecy- there seems to be a herd mentality towards teachings that conflict with the clear teaching of scripture. Was this site formed around the teaching of a group or person like the 7th Day Adventists do? If someone could fill me in on the origins of this site and who is behind it I would appreciate it. I am spending alot of time on this site and was wondering if I am wasting my time and should move on.

Orates- not Socrates

Hi

That scripture is true of Christianity which is now part of the Olive Tree having been grafted in.

It was said in the hope that some cold water may wake you up.

Now I asked for a very simple thing in that post.

Please show where it says Daniel 9 is for end Times.

Daniel 9 and the 70 week where fulfilled thousands of years ago.

Not only that the Chapter was altered by Jerome in the Fifth century to fit is therory of what it was saying...he was dead wrong.

Let me ask you one thing? Do you think transgressions have been finished, sin is at an end, prophecy is complete, and the most Holy has been Annointed? These things will all happen when Jesus comes with His Saints at the Second Coming. He talks about the Abomination of Desolation, as spoken by Daniel, set up in the Temple as a sign for Jews to escape to the wilderness. 69 sevens of years have passed until the Messiah was cut off (crucified). One week of years is still left and it is in our future- Only preterists believe otherwise. The only way to prove this to you will be to wait and see if there is a final 7 year Treaty signed with Israel and then the Antichrist takes over Israel 3 1/2 years later- I'll discuss it again with you then!

The Seventy "Sevens"
Dan 9:20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' [c] are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish [d] transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. [e]

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree [f] to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, [g] the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. [h] The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' [i] In the middle of the 'seven' [j] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. [k] " [l]

Mat 23:15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,'[b] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

Orates

I'm sorry Just The Facts (apology for thinking this was Orates earlier and so I have edited this), but YOU are dead wrong (well, half dead)... there are two views on this 70th week as you will see here: So, you can argue it if you would like that it has passed, but there are others that don't quite see it YOUR way. See, here's just another example of someone who thinks they know it all instead of being humble enough to admit he MAY be wrong.... does ANYONE REALLY KNOW what is going to happen in Bible Prophecy? We can predict based on revealed Biblical knowledge and put it together with events that have already occurred. But to claim you KNOW THAT YOU KNOW is prideful. Take a read. And stop being so haughty. Did you know that Pride cometh before a Fall?

http://www.souldevice.org/70thweek.html

Daniel's 70th Week

Many do not realize where the concept of a future 7 year "Great Tribulation" comes from. It is assumed by most that it is somewhere in Revelation (though there is no reference to a 7 year anything in Revelation), when in fact it is derived from a passage in Daniel (although the Great Tribulation is not mentioned).


“Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place. “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."
Daniel 9:24-27

Much has been made of the prophecy of the 70th week of Daniel, especially in recent times. Prior to the 1800's this prophecy was seen in a different light than it is much of the time today in the system of thought that now dominates the eschatological landscape of today's prophecy teachings. The following is an comparison of the two major views.

Two Schools of Thought

The two schools of thought, Futurism and Preterism, could not be more divided. One sees this verse as referring to the coming of Christ, the other anti-Christ! Preterism says that this is a prophecy predicting the coming of Christ, His establishing the New Covenant by His crucifixion 3 1/2 years into His ministry, and the subsequent judgment on Jerusalem - its destruction in 70 AD by the Romans. Futurism says that this is a prophecy predicting the coming of Christ and His crucifixion, then proceeding to some unknown time in the future where the Antichrist comes and makes a 7 year agreement with Israel to let them rebuild their temple and start sacrificing animals again, only to put a stop to it after 3 1/2 years so that he can set himself up in the temple demanding worship as a god, thus beginning the great tribulation (some would say that the whole seven year period is the great tribulation, others that the first half is only "tribulation" and the second half "great tribulation"). The following chart shows the prophecy of the 70 weeks with some key words and pronouns replaced to highlight each view's interpretation:



Preterism: A Prophecy of Christ
“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Jesus there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. “Then after the sixty-two weeks Jesus will be cut off and have nothing, and the Roman army under Titus will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. “And Jesus will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week Jesus will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the Roman army under Titus, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the Roman army under Titus.”
Futurism: A Prophecy of Antichrist
“So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Jesus there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. “Then after the sixty-two weeks Jesus will be cut off and have nothing, and the Antichrist and his people will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. “And the Antichrist will make a firm covenant with the many for one week (far in the future), but in the middle of the week the Antichrist will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come the Antichrist, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the Antichrist.”


Below are some considerations that both views must deal with in support of their interpretation.


9:24 - The Requirements

An interesting problem for either interpretation is how the 5 major prophecies regarding "your people and your holy city" were to be fulfilled. Do they refer to national Israel and Jerusalem? If so, how could they have fulfilled them? Was the result of their failure the calamity of 9:27? Or was this a prophecy of what the One who would come out of Israel, thus fulfilling the prophecy? The futurist view says Israel did not fulfill these, but will in the future. Preterism says Christ took care of these and that even if Israel was given the charge to accomplish such things they obviously failed to do so within in the allotted time. Due to their failure and rejection and execution of Messiah, the judgments prophesied in the verses following seem only fitting:

"to finish the transgression," (Matt 23:32; Luke 21:28-31; 1 Thess. 2:15-16)
"to make an end of sin," (Heb. 1:3, 9:12-14, 26 10:12; Acts 13:27)
"to make atonement for iniquity," (Romans 5:8-10; Colossians 1:12-22; etc.)
"to bring in everlasting righteousness," (Jeremiah 23:5-6; Romans 3:21-26; 1 Cor . 1:30)
"to seal up vision and prophecy," (Isaiah 6:9-10, 28:16 cf. 29:1-11; Matt. 13:14-15; Luke 21:24; John 12:39-41; Acts 13:27, 28:25-27)
" to anoint the most holy place." (Hebrews 9:23-24; 2 Cor. 1:21, 6:16)

9:25 - The first 69 weeks (483 Years)

Decree----------483 years----------Messiah

Both views basically agree on the first 69 weeks of this prophecy. (The Hebrew word translated "week" in many versions is literally a "group of seven." This is similar to our English word "dozen" which means "group of twelve." In this case it is sevens of years). The prophecy gives details concerning the first seven weeks as a time of trouble while the city and its walls were being made, and then simply a period of silence from the last prophet to the coming of Messiah, "the anointed prince," Jesus Christ. We can ascertain from Scripture that counting from the decree of Cyrus (Isa 44:28, 45:1-4; 2 Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-8, 3:7, 4:3-5; 6:3-14) - and subsequent decrees and affirmations following shortly thereafter to the time of Christ we arrive at 483 years (Mark 1:15 - note that various secular timelines have been produced throughout history as to when exactly these decrees were made, but an acceptable time would be from Artaxerxes' final decree around 444BC).

9:26 - After the 69th Week (after the 483rd year)

483rd year---(no time frame)--->Messiah cut off---(no time frame)--->Destruction

Verse 26 brings us past the 69th week to the time of Christ's crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in AD 70. A key fact that needs to be noted here is that the prophecy does not say how long after the 483rd year these things would take place. In other words, neither event is specifically said to be within the total 490 year period. History tells us that Christ was crucified sometime between AD 30-33, and the army of Titus destroyed the city and the temple in 70 AD.

9:27 - The 70th Week (7 years)

One's view of the last week of the prophecy will be decided by whether or not one thinks the pronoun "he" in this verse refers back to Messiah, or back to "the prince who is to come" (note: the anointed prince of verse 25 is not to be confused with the coming prince of verse 26). It is here that these two radically different schools of thought completely depart ways. Remember that the futurist teaching is that it refers back to "the prince" of verse 26 while the preterist view identifies this "he" as the Messiah. Quite a difference! Is this a continuance of the Messianic prophecies of verses 25-26, or are we being launched thousands of years into the future to another Roman prince, people, rebuilt Jerusalem, rebuilt temple, and sacrificial system?

Grammatically it is argued by both sides that the pronoun "he" must refer to the last single male mentioned. The futurist view states that this is referring to "the coming prince" (the antichrist) and not "the anointed prince" (the Messiah) of the previous verses. Futurists identify the "he" of verse 27 as a future world leader who will make a seven year agreement with Israel to allow them to begin their sacrifices again in a rebuilt temple. Further, this world leader will break the agreement at the halfway point, and introduce some sort of idol worship - setting himself up in the temple as a god (the 3 1/2 year time frames in Revelation are seen as occurring within one or the other half of this seven year period).

The preterist view says that the coming prince is not the subject of verse 26 - rather it is "the people" ("of the Prince who is to come" is only a phrase describing the people). In this case the last mention of a single male would be the anointed prince (Christ) of verse 25. Preterists assert that Christ did in fact confirm a covenant with many (the New Covenant: Mt. 26:27-28 cf. Jer. 31:31; Heb. 9:15 and 10:14-17). Christ's cutting off (His death on the cross) was in the middle of the last seven years. That, plus the tearing of the temple curtain, did put a stop to (acceptable) sacrifices and offerings (Heb. 8:12-15; 9:25-10:29). Thus, they claim, there is no need to look to our future for fulfillment.

The Two Views

X------490 years------X

The preterist view claims that the 490 years passed consecutively. The last week encompassed the ministry of Christ and ended with the stoning of Stephen when the gospel left Judea. They claim that to take it any other way would be to obscure the prophecy (suppose someone told you that they were going to pick you up in 4 hours for a meeting, and they did not show up until the next day, what would you conclude if they claimed they were on time because they were counting the first three hours in a row, but counted the fourth as a separate hour that was to come only after some undetermined interval?) The preterist theory concludes that:

1. Daniel's 70th week has already passed (coming right after the 69th).
2. "The great tribulation" is in our past, having nothing to do with this seven year period.
3. The predicted events of these seven years revolved around Jesus Christ.
4. The requirements listed in 9:24 were referring to, and met by, Christ - not national Israel.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

X---------483 years--------->???---2000 years (so far)---???<---7 years---X

The futurist view suggests that only 483 of the 490 years were fulfilled consecutively in history, and that we have yet to see the last seven. At the coming of the Church Age the last of Israel's weeks got pushed into the future - so far into the future in fact, that they remain part of our future. The futurist theory concludes that:

1. Daniel's 70th week remains in our future.
2. "The great tribulation" is in our future and takes place within this seven year period.
3. The predicted events of the last seven years revolve around a future antichrist.
4. The requirements listed in 9:24 have not been met by national Israel - but must be.

Conclusion

The most important part of this issue concerns the coming of Messiah which all Christians agree took place exactly when Daniel said it would: the decree was made around 444 BC and 483 years later Christ was revealed. The interpretation of the last seven years of the prophecy do not affect this in any way. However, when coupled with Christ's prophecy in Matthew 24 (see especially v.15) and its parallels in Revelation, one's interpretation has far reaching consequences for how one views our future.

© Doug Beaumont 2006

Geesh, well, Orates, do you think maybe WE are wasting OUR time with you? Has that occurred to you at all? Fill you in... we are a CHRISTIAN forum made up of many denominations... we all LOVE THE LORD JESUS. Is that a good enough explanation to keep you from "wasting your time"? If you are looking for a good debate, then there is a website I can recommend that will be more for the attitude you are boasting here. It's www.debatingchristianity.com. How about that one? Maybe you can waste your time over there.

No! you said just the first line. The rest is what I know about the matter. See if you can come out of that Spirit of Slander, Just The Facts. Resist it and it will flee from you.



Charlie

Hi

I am not slandering anyone. It was suggested that I was speaking nonsense. I did misunderstnd you post as stating my position but I did not slander you. I simply stated that the position of a final week is reading into scripture something that is just not there.


I have asked a simple question over and over and all you 70th weekers keep avoiding it.

So here it is again

WHere in Daniel 9 does it say it is a prophecy for end times.

This may help you to understand the significance of Daniel 9 and End time prophecy......

Cross references:

Daniel 9:27 : Dan 11:31; Matt 24:15; Mark 13:14; Luke 21:20
Daniel 9:27 : Is 10:23; 28:22

Forget it guys, he's wastiing OUR time now.

Did you even READ any of the Scriptures about it? Did I not help to point out that there are TWO SCHOOLS OF THOUGHT about this? Preterist and Futurist. Do a Google search and save us the trouble of having to keep spelling it out to you. Look up 70 weeks, Daniel.... you will find your answer... but it just won't be the one YOU are looking for.

Lotsa luck going round in circles. The Lord doesn't HAVE to be SPECIFIC so that your mind can totally grasp EVERYTHING He is doing. Will the clay say to the Potter, Why did you make me? I think you need to have more faith and less knowledge... all that knowledge everyone is searching for is just another testimony to the end times. So... whether we're in the 70th week or not, does it really matter? IS JESUS LORD OF YOUR LIFE?? If not, then all that knowledge is gone. They said there was going to be an increase in knowledge in the end days. You keep running to and fro for an answer, but not bowing the knee.

Wish you well!

Hi lifeinhim

I am not a preterist.

I do not think rev has anything to do with Jerusalem in 70 AD.

I do not think Matt 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD.

So throw your assumptions out the Window.




Hi onetigger

I assume you refer to Daniel 9:27 and Dan 11:31 In reference to the stopping of the Sacrifice.

First as I stated Daniel 9 says nothing about it being about the end times

And look at Daniel 40 it clearly says at the time of the End which is many verses after 31.

Now if you want to talk about stopping the sacrifice at the time of the End then go after verse 40 and in chapter 12 you will see there is another mention of stopping the sacrifice.

TO ASSUME it is referring to 11:31 is a big step

However look at Daniel 8:

23: And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24: And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25: And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Now that clearly says it is about end Times.

HOWEVER you must assume that it is the same stopping of the Sacrifice as in Daniel 9: and that is a BIG ASSUMPTION since it is not told to us as such.

So what we can say is that Daniel 8: is about end Times and Daniel 12 is about end Times. What we can not say is that Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 9:27 are about end times.

Well if those two are not about end times then that would mean the sacrifice is taken away twice.

You know like Elijah comes twice Jesus comes twice.

So that would mean Abominations before and at the Time of Jesus first advent and then Abominations before at at his Second Advent.


As you can see I have not added any meaning that is not directly implyed by the scripture and and yet we see this duality appearing in not only the abomination but Elijah and Jesus' advents.............................Are you following the Truth of this so far.

So Justthefacts, what are you trying to get at? Why don't you just SAY what you want to SAY, remember you are JUST THE FACTS,... instead of beating us in the head with some point you want to make that it seems nobody is really that interested in, why don't you just explain it to us? This duality, etc. If it's sooooo important, then why are you the only one that knows about it? Are you God too?

Just the Facts, it may surprise you that what I quoted was from concordances that have long been accepted by mainstream Christianity. You can look at most Bibles and there are references already noted in the center or at the bottom of the page to help you understand the particualar scripture.

For more on Daniel Chapter 9:

Bibliography Information
Scofield, C. I. "Scofield Reference Notes on Daniel 9". "Scofield Reference Notes (1917 Edition)".

http://www.studylight.org/com/srn/view.cgi...=da&chapter=009

It may also surprise you to know that the NEW Sanhedrin Court has been formed, and they plan on bringing back animal sacrafice. For more in what is happening in light of the Biblical End Time Prophecies...

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=4916

It is time to wake up and take notice! These are JUST THE FACTS, and its in the news too!

From a New Testament point of view, the term "last days" takes in the entire time period from the apostles to Christ's second coming. From this perspective, everything in Daniel 9:26-27 that followed Messiah being "cut off" is part of the endtimes. In these verses, Daniel first described what happens after the 69th week ends but before the 70th week begins. Then he depicted the events of this 70th week.

The Destruction Of Jerusalem In AD 70. After "Messiah the Prince" is "cut off," the people of a coming prince will destroy Jerusalem.

After the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, and till the end of the war desolations are determined (Dan. 9:26).
A new hostile prince comes into the picture. He is literally "a prince, the one coming." The use of the article in "the one coming" suggests that this coming prince has been introduced earlier. He is undoubtedly the "little horn" of Daniel 7:8,24-26 who makes war with the saints until the Ancient of Days intervenes. He will head the restored Roman Empire in the endtimes.

His "people," the Romans, destroyed Jerusalem in AD 70. These words in Daniel 9:26 cannot refer to Antiochus Epiphanes of the second century BC, because he destroyed neither the city of Jerusalem nor the temple.

The phrase "the end will come like a flood" (NIV) perhaps points to both the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the end of the age. It will come suddenly and overwhelmingly. Until that end comes, wars will mark human history. And "desolation," especially in relation to Daniel's people and his city, will continue.

What desolation? Eric Sauer points out that 1.1 million Jews were killed in AD 70; 500,000 killed in AD 132-134; 1,200 killed in Rhineland, Germany, in AD 1096; 100,000 killed in Bavaria and Austria in AD 1298; 400,000 killed during the Russian-Polish-Swedish war in 1648-1658; and 4 to 6 million killed in Nazi Germany between 1935 and 1945. And no one knows how much suffering lies ahead for the people the prophet Zechariah called "the apple of His eye" (2:8).

The Antichrist In The 70th Week. The 70th week will begin when someone with authority will make a binding commitment with a group of people called "the many." After 3 1/2 years he will break his agreement. This will be accompanied by some kind of sacrilege. But in the end, the person who breaks the treaty and engages in this abomination will meet his doom.

Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; but in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, even until the consummation, which is determined, is poured out on the desolate (Dan. 9:27).
It seems obvious that this 70th week does not immediately follow the 69th week. The time period of 7 weeks plus 62 weeks extends from the decree to restore Jerusalem to "Messiah the Prince" (v.25). It is after this time period of 49 years plus 434 years that the Messiah is "cut off," and the city and sanctuary are destroyed. No time spans are given for these events, which are both well-attested historically. Moreover, to view verse 27 as taking us back to the Messiah who was "cut off" doesn't work out very well. Jesus did not make a covenant. And He wasn't the kind of man who would make a 7-year covenant and then break it.

Since the events described in verse 27 cannot be tied in with the time of Christ's crucifixion, the destruction of Jerusalem, or anything that happened in the first century, the text must look to the future.

The man who "shall confirm a covenant with many for one week" is undoubtedly the ruler introduced to us in verse 26 as "the prince who is to come." As noted earlier, he is the "little horn" of Daniel 7. He will head a western confederacy of nations, the revived Roman Empire in its "ten toes" phase of Daniel 2:40-43, the "ten horned" phase of Daniel 7:24. This same individual is referred to as the "man of sin" (2 Th. 2:3), the "Antichrist" (1 Jn. 2:18), and the "beast" (Rev. 13:1-10). He will apparently pose as a friend of Israel, giving the Jewish people a sense of security and allowing them to worship in their newly rebuilt temple. Revelation 13 opens with this man receiving the adulation of all mankind. He will have unified the Western world. He will have brought order out of chaos. People will feel confidence in his goodness. It is then that he dares to drop all pretense and show himself to be Satan's henchman. He begins to blaspheme God and "make war with the saints and to overcome them" (vv.6-7). From this point on, he remains in power for 42 months before meeting his doom.

The final statement of Daniel 9:27 is difficult to translate, but the rendering in the NIV clarifies the meaning. He will "set up an abomination that causes desolation." Three New Testament passages throw some light on these words: Matthew 24:15, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4, and Revelation 13.

Addressing Jewish people, Jesus said, "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, . . . then let those who are in Judea flee" (Mt. 24:15). It appears that the image of Antichrist will be placed in the temple and that people will be ordered to worship it. This is the abominable event that will trigger the desolation of the temple and the city of Jerusalem at the end of the age.

Paul, instructing Christian believers about the coming time of tribulation that will precede Christ's return to set up His kingdom, declared that during this period of trouble the "man of sin" will be revealed, describing him as one "who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God and that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Th. 2:3-4).

Revelation 13 tells us that he will start a war against the saints and blaspheme God. Then his partner, the False Prophet, will make an image of the Beast (Antichrist) and demand that people worship it or die. Jesus and Paul both indicated that this outrageous blasphemy will take place in the restored Jewish temple. The devil himself as the Antifather (the dragon of Rev. 13:4), the Antichrist (the Beast), and the Antispirit (the False Prophet) are the infernal trinity. They will attempt to make the restored Jewish temple their religious headquarters, the place where they will be worshiped.

The last words of Daniel 9:27, "until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (NIV), indicate Antichrist's doom. Other Scriptures clearly declare that he will be totally and disgracefully defeated. His final series of battles and his destruction are portrayed in Daniel 11:40-45. This passage closes with the words, "Yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him."

Israel's Conversion In The 70th Week. Daniel 9 closes, as noted above, with a summary statement about the shocking sacrilege and predetermined doom of the future world ruler the Bible calls the Beast, the man of sin, and the Antichrist. His defeat is further described in Daniel 11:40-45. But that's not the end of the story. Daniel 12:1-3 gives a summary of what will happen to the Israelites as a nation:

At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever (Dan. 12:1-3).
"At that time" refers to the interval between the rise of Antichrist and his destruction. During this time of great tribulation--tribulation for Israel predicted in Deuteronomy 4:30, Jeremiah 30:7, Matthew 24:21-22, and many other Bible passages--the archangel Michael will see to it that the Israelites are not annihilated. Multitudes of Jewish people will repent and believe in their Messiah. Zechariah 12 graphically depicts God's supernatural deliverance of the surviving Israelites at the close of this terrible time. He then describes the repentant nation as Messiah returns to establish His kingdom:

I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn (Zech. 12:10).
The Jewish people who still refuse to believe will be removed in judgment (Ezek. 20:33-38). Therefore, all the Israelites who go into the full blessings of the kingdom age will be true believers, people whose names appear in the book of life. All the promises in Daniel 9:24 will be realized. The prophet Isaiah portrays what will then occur:

Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the Lord's house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. Many people shall come and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths." For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. He shall judge between the nations, and rebuke many people; they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore (Isa. 2:2-4).
And what about the Israelites whose bodies have turned to dust? They will not be forgotten! The Christian scholar Tregelles, following earlier Jewish commentators, translated verse 2, "And many from the sleepers of the dust of the earth shall awake, these shall be to everlasting life; but those of the rest of the sleepers, those who do not awake at this time, shall be unto shame and everlasting contempt." The coming of God's Messiah will be a tremendous event for all the believing Israelites of all the ages!


yahoo search link...

Hi

First off Just The Facts is my handle not because I think I have all the Facts but because I only want Facts.

You know "just the facts please Sir" Joe Friday Dragnet.

So now that we have that out of the Way perhaps we can deal with the subject mater and not my handle.


As far as duality I am hardly the only one who knows about it. Nor am I the one who first pointed it out Duality was a reality among the earliest Church Fathers.

I made a simple statement at the beginning of this Forum I said Daniel 9 was not about end Times.

Now someone has said messiah

the first thing people should understand is the word messiah is not even in the Hebrew text the word is Anointed, Not messiah.

Second it does not say he is cut of but not for himself it says the anointed is cut off and has nothing.

Third the first seven weeks is not to be combined with the 62 weeks. So

here is the proper Translation of those verses

[25] Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. [26] And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed. [27] And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator."


Now there is just no way that Jesus is the Anointed one because the Anointed one comes after seven weeks not seven and sixty two.


there is also no way that Jesus is the one who stops the sacrifice after the half week.


Now the reason this is sooooo messed up is Because Jerome purposely altered the text to fit his doctrine. Jerome was the first one to come up with the concept that Jesus was the anointed one ...........................But Jesus did not come after seven weeks so he combined the 7 and 62 in a lame attempt to get close to what he believed was Jesus birthday.

Second he substituted Anointed with Messiah. He just butchered this prophecy to fit his belief. And he admitted that he changed things …………his reason stated was that he wanted to make things clearer.

Let me ask you a question does anyone even understand WHY it is 490 years and not 220 years or 40 years or 600 years.

God does nothing by chance so why is it 490 years and why did Jeremiah say 70 Years.

If you truly want to understand Daniel 9 this is where you must start.


As far as the claim of the accepted understanding the earliest understanding is not even close to what you refer to as the accepted understanding.

Hey Orates
I don't know where everyone else here gets their understanding from, I assume either from prayer and fasting and diligent study or straight from the Lord.
I don't know how old you are but most likely before you were born an anti-christ Baptist minister a false prophet caused fire to come down out of the sky in the sight of men and the fire consumed Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Everyone wants to get on the band wagon of this coming anti-christ and treaty and Jerusalem of the flesh but none of that is real. It won’t happen.
What is going to happen is that everyone will continue in the deception of thinking that they are following Christ while sitting at the beasts (nations) table. And when Christ sends His prophets to tell them to come out from among them and be separate they will reject Gods prophets just like they always have. Only this time the prophets shut up heaven and the rain stops for three and a half years. Then they turn the oceans and seas and all water supplies to blood. Then the entire world will fall and never rise again.
This is what starts the great tribulation and Christ’s coming with His army of saints finishes it. Then the Kingdom will be setup on earth for a thousand years.
Many true shepherds are being prepared to take the sheep when this all gets started. The final outcome will be two groups of people on earth those who have survived by faith in God and those who have survived by eating people. Those devils who have eaten their own children and neighbors to survive will be destroyed by Christ and the saints at Christ’s return.



Charlie

What do you call this stament Just The Facts

Slander, Belittling, Sarcasm? How does this Spirit Help you? Does it make your teaching or understanding better somehow if you put someone else down?
Remember where Christ said "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".
Before you tell me this is out of context there are many stand alone facts in Christ's teachings that can be concluded by Spiritual reason.
Just ask your self would you have said such a thing to Christ?



Charlie

Maz, great word and reminder of our God of love and mercy for all people even from the foundation of the earth with a plan in his hand to bring all who will into the knowledge and power at the appointed hour of revelation of Jesus name and fame!

Indeed we need to be "eternally thankful that God in His infinite wisdom, blinded Israel until this day. Otherwise we would not be in the salvation plan of God".

Our older brother...first choosen and yet saved for last...

Hi Charlie

I would not had to have said it to Jesus Jesus would not say things in sarcasm like

you are talking in Tongues

I have been called a heretic .....not in plainly but preterists are Heretics

Forget it guys, he's wastiing OUR time now.

Are you God too


Sometimes we forget that how we treat others comes right back at us


Since I have shown up here there have been allot of assumptions about my beliefs about my handle.....................and all have been wrong.

Perhaps a little more Judge not lest ye be Judged would help out here.

You will find I am very civil and never attack the person unless i am attacked first.

Now I already stated I misunderstood what was said here

Quote of post #4
Yes. he said the link is nonsense based on misconceptions of scripture. There is only going to be 3.5 years of tribulation and there won’t be any treaty and the anti-christ has been here for quite sometime as has been the beast the mark and the image. The Israel of the flesh that rejects Christ is never going to be anything more than another nation to be destroyed by the great tribulation.
End Quote


When I read it the first time I though you were saying that this was what I believed.

I am sorry I misunderstood your post. I am interested in finding out how you have come to the things you stated in the above quote.

So, are you are saying, in a basic and simpified term, that you beleive the BIBLE has errors in it? Because if you are saying that, you need to read the statement from the administrator of this forum....

Statement of Beliefs




http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=189

Hi

No I am saying some translations have errors.

I quoted the RSV bible

There may be typographical errors, in the Bible. Yes, and I agree that the wording in some translations are incomplete or not the correct translated word. But as a whole, the BIBLE has made it through over 6000 years and is still with us intact and complete Inspired WORD of GOD. There have been plenty of those who have tried to destroy GOD'S WORD in the past. If all the Bibles in the world were destroyed today, there are enough Christians that could put it completely back together 100%. That is my belief.

Charlie,
I've been wondering something. You said that the beast is the nations which we are members of, and we have social security numbers and get paychecks and pay taxes, and we send our kids to school or homeschool them and buy food and clothing and live in homes and go to church in these nations. You keep telling us we need to come out. Are you saying we need to do that NOW, or when we are told to soon by the Two?

How would we come out now? You might disagree, but aren't we supposed to be in the world but not of the world? Does living in a nation (and don't we all?) make us guilty of that nation's abominations? Or the abominations of the leaders of that nation? How is that guilt passed to us if we are living the way the Lord told us to live? I'm not asking in a spirit of contention--I want to know what your answer is. In what way are you saying that we supposed to be coming out now? Are you saying that we supposed to abandon our homes and live in the desert or in the mountains or on the plains) on manna because the Witnesses' ministry is coming in the next few months? Or are you saying to wait until the Witnesses say to do so, and be ready to do so then?

You may have already answered this, and I may have missed this--if so, I apologize, but I miss some posts here and there with the time limits I have with raising 6 children. Thanks for your patience!

Hi


No it is more than typos...................Each Translation was done by a particular faith of Christianity so the translation is slanted to make that belief seem obvious.


The reality is that the central picture of salvation is unchanged what gets changed is verse regarding prophecy.

Daniel 9: is a very good example of this.

The word used for Messiah in Daniel 9 is in the OT 37 other times every other time it is translated as anointed. Yet Jerome translated it as messiah in Daniel 9: because "he believed" that is what it was talking about.

Only if Christ is God and I am worthy to be called His brother.

Mt 25
40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'



Charlie

Just the Facts, HUH?

What are you really trying to say?

Hi

I am saying Daniel 9: was altered and is not about Jesus. Jesus is not the Prince who comes after seven Weeks and he is not the one that is cut off an has nothing.


I started a thread on Daniel 9: did you read it. I explain why I believe what I believe.

Let me ask you onetigger


Why is the prophecy 490 years why not some other number why 490 years and why did Jeremiah say 70 years.


God does nothing by chance. Have you ever thought about why God set these numbers.

So what translation are you using? Just The Facts. All of the translations that I have including the received Masoretic Text are talking about the Messiah. There was and is only one Messiah. So yes Daniel 9 is about Christ the Messiah Prince. It was discovered by counting the time between the Zerubabel temple and the coming of Christ that the weeks were years. It all added up perfectly well except for one week. The only mistake they made was in hearing what they were reading in the place where it says to the coming of the Messiah. They left out the Messiahs three and a half year ministry befor He was cut off. The final three and a half years and the second half of the covenant come with christ's two witnesses at the end as mentioned in Daniel 12.



Charlie

Hi

The proper translation can be found in the RSV......I already stated that is what I quoted.


The Hebrew Word is Mashiyach

It is Used 37 times as Anointed and then Jerome translated it as messiah in the Vulgate. the KGV was taken from that and by that time the false translation was embedded in the Christian mind.

here are Some of the People the Word was used for

Isa 45:1: Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,

So Cyrus is the Messiah I guess........................and

Lev 4:3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.


Well Every priest was messiah I guess.

As you can see the Word Mashiyach was used and applied to many different people.

So it was Jerome’s Opinion that Anointed in Daniel 9: meant Messiah he translated the word in error ON PURPOSE TO FIT HIS DOCTRINE. Jerome came up with the comon place understanding of this prophecy and it is simply wrong. It was his doctrine and not in line with what the earliest Church fathers taught.


Now As I said before to really understand this prophecy you must understand why Jeremiah said 70 years and why it is 490 years in Daniel.

JustTheFacts I have a few questions for you.........

Do you believe that the bible was inspired?

Do you believe that on something so important, let's say like the Word of God, that God allowed, let's say errored text, to come out to all people in this day and age, and those that came before us, to only be confused as to who said what, who translated what, and so forth?

Do you think that God is the author of this confusion in the text that you keep trying to enlighten us on?

Yes, I know that God is not the author of confusion on anything........But what you trying to say is that God allowed this mistake only to bring some kind of confusion to the masses today....

Here's some commentary given in Barne's Notes that may help you,

As you see, I'm giving you JustTheFacts.


Daniel 9:25
[Unto the Messiah] The word Messiah occurs but four times in the common version of the Scriptures: <Dan. 9:25-26: John 1:41; 4:25>. It is synonymous in meaning with the word "Christ," the Anointed. See the notes at <Matt. 1:1>. Messiah is the Hebrew word; Christ the Greek. The Hebrew word [Maashiyach (heb 4899)] occurs frequently in the Old Testament, and, with the exception of these two places in Daniel, it is uniformly translated "anointed," and is applied to priests, to prophets, and to kings, as being originally set apart to their offices by solemn acts of anointing. So far as the "language" is concerned here, it might be applied to anyone who sustained these offices, and the proper application is to be determined from the connection. Our translators have introduced the article-- "unto the Messiah." This is wanting in the Hebrew, and should not have been introduced, as it gives a definiteness to the prophecy which the original language does not necessarily demand.
Our translators undoubtedly understood it as referring to him who is known as the Messiah, but this is not necessarily implied in the original. All that the language fairly conveys is, "until an anointed one." Who "that" was to be is to be determined from other circumstances than the mere use of the language, and in the interpretation of the language it should not be assumed that the reference is to any particular individual. That some eminent personage is designated; some one who by way of eminence would be properly regarded as anointed of God; some one who would act so important a part as to characterize the age, or determine the epoch in which he should live; some one so prominent that he could be referred to as "anointed," with no more definite appellation; some one who would be understood to be referred to by the mere use of this language, may be fairly concluded from the expression used-- for the angel clearly meant to imply this, and to direct the mind forward to some one who would have such a prominence in the history of the world. The object now is merely to ascertain the meaning of the "language." All that is fairly implied is, that it refers to some one who would have such a prominence as anointed, or set apart to the office of prophet, priest, or king, that it could be understood that he was referred to by the use of this language. The reference is not to the anointed one, as of one who was already known or looked forward to as such-- for then the article would have been used; but to some one who, when he appeared, would have such marked characteristics that there would be no difficulty in determining that he was the one intended. Hengstenberg well remarks, "We must, therefore, translate "an anointed one, a prince," and assume that the prophet, in accordance with the uniform character of his prophecy, chose the more indefinite, instead of the more definite designation, and spoke only of AN anointed one, a prince, instead of THE anointed one, THE prince-- [kat'] (grk 2596) [exocheen] (grk 1851)-- and left his hearers to draw a deeper knowledge respecting him, from the prevailing expectations, grounded on earlier prophecies of a future great King, from the remaining declarations of the context, and from the fulfillment, the coincidence of which with the prophecy must here be the more obvious, since an accurate date had been given."-- Christol. ii. 334, 335.
The Vulgate renders this, "Usque ad Christum ducem"-- "even to Christ the leader," or ruler. The Syriac, "to the advent of Christ the king." Theodotion, [heoos] (grk 2193) [Christou] (grk 5547) [heegoumenou] (grk 2233)-- "Christ the leader," or ruler. The question whether this refers to Christ will be more appropriately considered at the close of the verse. The inquiry will then occur, also, whether this refers to his birth, or to his appearance as the anointed one-- his taking upon himself publicly the office. The language would apply to either, though it would perhaps more properly refer to the latter-- to the time when he should appear as such-- or should be anointed, crowned, or set apart to the office, and be fully instituted in it. It could not be demonstrated that either of these applications would be a departure from the fair interpretation of the words, and the application must be determined by some other circumstances, if any are expressed. What those are in the case will be considered at the close of the verse.
 
[The Prince] [naagiyd] (heb 5057). This word properly means a leader, a prefect, a prince. It is a word of very general character, and might be applied to any leader or ruler. It is applied to an overseer, or, as we should say, a "secretary" of the treasury, <1 Chr. 26:24; 2 Chr. 31:12>; an overseer of the temple, <1 Chr. 9:11; 2 Chr. 31:13>; of the palace, <2 Chr. 28:7>; and of military affairs, <1 Chr. 13:1; 2 Chr. 32:21>. It is also used absolutely to denote a prince of a people, any one of royal dignity, <1 Sam. 9:16; 10:1; 13:14>.-- Gesenius. So far as this word, therefore, is concerned, it would apply to any prince or leader, civil or military; any one of royal dignity, or who should distinguish himself, or make himself a leader in civil, ecclesiastical, or military affairs, or who should receive an appointment to any such station. It is a word which would be as applicable to the Messiah as to any other leader, but which has nothing in itself to make it necessary to apply it to him. All that can be fairly deduced from its use here is, that it would be some prominent leader; some one that would be known without anymore definite designation; someone on whom the mind would naturally rest, and someone to whom when he appeared it would be applied without hesitation and without difficulty. There can be no doubt that a Hebrew, in the circumstances of Daniel, and with the known views and expectations of the Hebrew people, would apply such a phrase to the Messiah.
 
[Shall be seven weeks] See the notes at <Dan. 9:24>. The reason for dividing the whole period into seven weeks, sixty-two weeks, and one week, is not formally stated, and will be considered at the close of the verse. All that is necessary here in order to an explanation of the language, and of what is to be anticipated in the fulfillment, is this:
(a) That, according to the above interpretation <Dan. 9:24>, the period would be forty-nine years.
( That this was to be the "first" portion of the whole time, not time that would be properly taken out of any part of the whole period.
© That there was to be some event at the end of the forty-nine years which would designate a period, or a natural division of the time, or that the portion which was designated by the forty-nine years was to be distinctly characterized from the next period referred to as sixty-two weeks, and the next period as one week.
(d) No intimation is given in the words as to the nature of this period, or as to what would distinguish one portion from the others, and what that was to be is to be learned from subsequent explanations, or from the actual course of events. If one period was characterized by war, and another by peace; one in building the city and the walls, and the other by quiet prosperity; one by abundance, and the other by famine; one by sickness, and the other by health-- all that is fairly implied by the words would be met. It is foretold only that there would be something that would designate these periods, and serve to distinguish the one from the other.
 
[And threescore and two weeks] Sixty-two weeks; that is, as above explained <Dan. 9:24>, four hundred and thirty-four years. The fair meaning is, that there would be something which would characterize that long period, and serve to distinguish it from what preceded it. It is not indeed intimated what that would be, and the nature of the case seems to require that we should look to the events-- to the facts in the course of the history to determine what that was. Whether it was peace, prosperity, quiet, order, or the prevalence of religion as contrasted with the former period, all that the words fairly imply would be fulfilled in either of them.
(from Barnes' Notes)

How did my request for short comments, questions, or rebuttals to my blog lead to 8 pages of in-fighting, sarcasm, and arguments, that had nothing to do with my original request? Is the format of an internet based prophecy forum doomed to failure because everyone wants to jump in and change the subject with there own ramblings- leading to bitterness, chaos and confusion? I am having my doubts that anything of value can be conveyed through this medium-

Please keep to the subject matter of the original posts and avoid chatter- please!

Orates

Orates, there aren't any in-fighting, sarcasm, and arguments here. Accept for the pleading on the Name of JESUS we cannot go into heaven. He is the WAY the Truth and the LIFE.

We fail GOD all the time, but GOD never fails us.

Are you missing the point, because you choose to see: "ramblings- leading to bitterness, chaos and confusion".

Interesting discussion .... many rabit trails. We all have a tendency to side track the subject of a post for various reasons. It happens all the time.

I might make a suggestion regarding one of the components of a comprehensive overview of prophecy. This one is not popular, but it is possible and if incorporated into one's model of time frames, it could clear up much of the controversy.

The scope of the prophetic visions just may be limited in terms of lapse time and to some extent geographical location. I find that none of the visionary writings of the Bible prophets include historical events between the end of the 69th week (and subsequent departure of the Lord) and the beginning of the 70th which is yet future. The unpopular part here is that the Roman empire or any subsequent rulers of the Middle East (there have been several since Rome fell) are not even in the scope of the visions.

It is true that Rome's existance and involvement is recorded in the Bible as an historical fact, but there is a difference between a prophetic vision and historical documentation. I see the visions including the end of Greek rule in the Middle East and then immediately moving to the time of the end of this present age. If true, this would eliminate any significant events on the earth since the Lord's departure in the first century until now. There have been many since that time which are simply not there.

It may be that the people of the prince that shall come will be the followers of the little horn at the time of the end, and not the Roman armies in the first century. The Roman invasions took place many years after the Lord's departure. Neither did the Roman Empire start out as two contemporary dominions, north and south, ruling the Middle East. Daniel's vision of the image of gentile rule moves from the two bronze thighs (northern and southern Greek) directly to the two iron legs, north and south, at the time of the end. The little horn will be the northern king and the king of the south will contend with him, but lose in the process.

His vision of the four symbolic animal beasts (four successive rulers of the Middle East) moves from the third northern Greek rule to the fourth unnamed dominion at the time of the end. This final endtime dominion of the Middle east will produce the little horn and ten others who will rule a divided kingdom for 1,260 days. The little horn will unite the others, confirm the covenant with many, conquer the Middle East, invade and occupy Israel, and attempt to conquer the rest of the world from the Middle East.

The confirmation of the covenant by the prince that shall come could very well be an Islamic perversion of the same that the Lord has with national Israel (I am speculating here about Islam). The adherants of this religion already believe that this relationship belongs to them. It is possible that Islam may turn out to be the cult of the first beast of Revelation. I might also mention that it is significant to understand just who this beast is and his relationship with the little horn. This is a different subject.

This beast has ruled over five successive Middle Eastern dominions of the past ending with the northern Greek (his dominion or "head" wounded). He will rule over two more successive dominions in the future (the 6th will be his dominion or "head" healed). These are his seven heads (human dominions that he rules over). He once "was", then was "not" (and still is not operative), and will come out of the abyss at the time of the end. His power and authority comes from Satan. He is Abaddon, the angelic king of the abyss.

Five of the human dominion king positions are historical (fallen), one "is", and the other will follow. John's perspective here is at the beginning of the 70th week, not in the first century. He was taken into the future to be shown what must take place hereafter. He sees the little horn in the 6th king position as the one that "is" .... the human king of the north in the Middle East. He will fill both the 6th and 7th king positions and will start out with a smaller dominion (little) at first and then expand it into the 7th divided dominion of iron and clay to include the other 10 kings.

There is no need for me to list Scriptural references at this point for it seems that most here know where they are located. Stepping back and looking at the overall picture is the key and I would suggest doing this by re-visiting your model and related references with these possibilities in mind.

[quote=Orates,Apr 13 2006, 09:17 AM]
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Yes. he said the link is nonsense based on misconceptions of scripture. There is only going to be 3.5 years of tribulation and there won’t be any treaty and the anti-christ has been here for quite sometime as has been the beast the mark and the image. The Israel of the flesh that rejects Christ is never going to be anything more than another nation to be destroyed by the great tribulation.


Charlie
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I think there might be some confusion with Daniels's 70th week here. Most prophecy interpretors from the Dallas Seminary School believe that a treaty is signed by the Antichrist which starts a 7 year period of disaster called the Tribulation. My blog says that there will be a treaty, but it won't necessarily be signed by the Antichrist-because then he would be revealed before his time (he is revealed by taking over the sanctuary fortress 3 1/2 years after the treaty is signed). He could be a part of the process incognito- but I doubt it.

Second- even though Daniel's 70th begins with a treaty- the first 3 1/2 years are fairly peaceful- with the world crying peace and safety- then sudden destruction comes upon them in the last 3 1/2 year period, which starts with the great tribulation or persecution of Christians- when they refuse to accept an invisible mark to buy and sell. After that the Russian Confederacy and the Arabs invades Israel ousting the Antichrist. This is the beginning of Jacob's trouble. The Chinese invade from the East and the Antichrist regroups from the north and they all meet in Israel for the final battle of Armageddon- this is the time of the Wrath. Any Chrisitan or Jewish believer hiding in the wilderness left alive just before the Wrath begins is raptured out along with the Two Witnesses and the 144,000. Then Jesus returns to earth with His Saints and the surviving Jews in Jerusalem- who finally accept their Messiah when He appears- flee into the valley formed by the splitting of the Mt. of Olives from the touch of Jesus's foot.

P.S. I was wondering where the readers of this site get their beliefs on prophecy- there seems to be a herd mentality towards teachings that conflict with the clear teaching of scripture. Was this site formed around the teaching of a group or person like the 7th Day Adventists do? If someone could fill me in on the origins of this site and who is behind it I would appreciate it. I am spending alot of time on this site and was wondering if I am wasting my time and should move on.

Orates- not Socrates
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Orates I am not questioning your post. I just wanted to ask you. You say that these countries will be fighting and still under the names they are presently. But the bible tells us that all nations will worship him. He will rule every nation and tongue, on earth. How would these things be if he is ruling them. and they worship him. This is just a question. My understanding is He will rule them all and they will all worship him and think him God. Whats your opinion?

Nations and peoples and languages and tongues mentioned in these prophecies are the nationalities of people- not actual countries. God does not deal with countries in the Millennium- but rather individuals who have the nationality or language of the country they are from. For example- when John saw a multitude of tribulation martyrs in Heaven- he said they were from every nation, tribe, language, and peoples. During the Millennium there will be gentile survivors around Israel from every nation and tongue who will have to go up to Jerusalem to worship the King on the Feast of the Tabernacles or there will be no rain for them. It does not mean that there will be countries like Eqypt, China, India, America etc. still in existence- there wouldn't be the technology to make the trip to Israel if they are from the actual surviving nations anyway. Most likely all the cities of the world are detroyed when Jesus Returns except Jerusalem and the surrounding region. The surviving Jews will populate their promised land ruled by their Messiah and His Saints and the gentile survivors will be in the lands surrounding Israel. I hope this helps.

Orates