A website that I was reading had this in their mail bag, "Mary as Co-Redemptrix ".
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
Full Version: Does Anyone Know If This Is True?
QUOTE(navia @ Apr 2 2006, 11:25 PM)
A website that I was reading had this in their mail bag, "Mary as Co-Redemptrix ".
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
[right][snapback]50873[/snapback][/right]
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
[right][snapback]50873[/snapback][/right]
Christ teaches us to Pray.
Matthew 6
9 In this manner, therefore, pray: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name.
10 Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, As we forgive our debtors.
13 And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
John 14
6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Christ is the mediator and by doing what He said you have fellowship with God. That doctrine of praying to mary is false and contrary to Christ's teachings. Salvation only comes through Christ.
Charlie
QUOTE(navia @ Apr 3 2006, 05:25 PM)
A website that I was reading had this in their mail bag, "Mary as Co-Redemptrix ".
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
[right][snapback]50873[/snapback][/right]
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
[right][snapback]50873[/snapback][/right]
Yes the catholic doctrines are an abomination to the Word of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
QUOTE(navia @ Apr 3 2006, 01:25 AM)
A website that I was reading had this in their mail bag, "Mary as Co-Redemptrix ".
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
[right][snapback]50873[/snapback][/right]
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
[right][snapback]50873[/snapback][/right]
Navia, until after the destruction of Israel by Rome, Christianity was simply seen as a faction of Judaism.
Search for the answers yourself. Those who have rushed to answer your questions are mere men. You cannot ask a non-catholic what catholics believe. I have a few key phrases for you to type into your search engine.
1. Jerusalem Assembly
2. Arius
3. Constantine the Great
4. Eusebius Pamphili
Now do a good study of what happened to Israel after Jesus was crucified. And more importantly what happened to the Hebrew people, Jewish and Christian alike after the destruction of Israel. Follow the faith up to the time of the Nicene council which is where and when the Bible as we know it was assembled into one great book.
Peace,
sojourner
QUOTE(sojourner @ Apr 3 2006, 08:16 AM)
QUOTE(navia @ Apr 3 2006, 01:25 AM)
A website that I was reading had this in their mail bag, "Mary as Co-Redemptrix ".
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
[right][snapback]50873[/snapback][/right]
Does anyone know if this is true, are catholics taught this?
Thank you for any help you can give.
Here is the letter.
Mary as Co-Redemptrix - 02/26/2005
Hi, I love your website. I have some questions. I was wondering if you tell me exactly where you obtained the Catholic doctrine of the co-redemptrix of Mary. I tried searching through the Catholic encyclopedia, but I couldn't find it. Also, do Catholics believe we are saved through works as well as faith, because if they do, not too many of them admit it or come right out and so say. Furtheremore, I read that the Catholic Church was not founded until the third or fourth century. Is that really true?
As a side note, I used to be part of the Mormon Church for a short time. Since then, I have done much research and found many reasons why their religion is false. Of some of the rediculous beliefs that they have, one of them is the idea that we can become like God. A few days ago, it dawned on me that that is the same lie that Satan used to deceive Eve. It blows my mind that the Mormons still continue to believe such a thing.
In Christ, Evan
CONTENDER MINISTRIES RESPONSE:
Hi Evan. I think you'll find that most Catholics use terminology differently, and define things differently. So a Catholic will tell you that salvation comes by grace, and they cannot earn salvation, they also believe that one can only be justified through adherance to the seven sacraments. As for Mary's role as co-redemptrix, I've provided a few quotes for you. The first three come from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as posted on the Vatican website, and the third sums it up quite clearly. The last quote is from one of the prayers to Mary.
"This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death" -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 964.
"Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things..." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 966.
"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix." -- Catechism of the Catholic Church, Part 1, Section 2, Chapter 3, Article 9, Para 6, 969.
"O MARY, conceived without sin, prayer for us who have recourse to thee.
HOLY MARY, pray for us!
IMMACULATE HEART of Mary, pray for us now and at the hour of our death.
SWEET HEART of Mary, be my salvation!
OUR LADY, Queen of Peace, pray for us!" -- From the RCC's Marian prayer known as Aspirations to Mary. There are many Marian prayers with similar allusions to her as a source of salvation.
Now while many Catholics may object to the term "co-redemptrix", you can see it is quite appropriate. Some Catholics have been lobbying the Vatican to make that one of her official titles, so not all Catholics object.
We praise God that you were able to see that Mormonism is a false gospel based upon a false prophet. And you're quite right in pointing out the original lie of Satan that still deceives people today.
In Christ,
Ben Rast
Contender Ministries
http://www.contenderministries.org/mail/20050225mary.php
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Navia, until after the destruction of Israel by Rome, Christianity was simply seen as a faction of Judaism.
Search for the answers yourself. Those who have rushed to answer your questions are mere men. You cannot ask a non-catholic what catholics believe. I have a few key phrases for you to type into your search engine.
1. Jerusalem Assembly
2. Arius
3. Constantine the Great
4. Eusebius Pamphili
Now do a good study of what happened to Israel after Jesus was crucified. And more importantly what happened to the Hebrew people, Jewish and Christian alike after the destruction of Israel. Follow the faith up to the time of the Nicene council which is where and when the Bible as we know it was assembled into one great book.
Peace,
sojourner
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Sojourner
Those who are mere men will lead you off into confussion. The sons and daughters of God will answer you with the word of God and the truth of Christ. Those who reject the teachings of Christ will perish in their confussion. Read the things that Christ taught and believe that and do that. There is no other way to salvation.
Charlie
There is nothing to be confused about.
This will be more than enough for u.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Even i had this confusion. U can go to this website
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/. This website has so many articles what u may be searching for
WK.
This will be more than enough for u.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
Even i had this confusion. U can go to this website
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/. This website has so many articles what u may be searching for
WK.
QUOTE(Adstar @ Apr 3 2006, 09:10 AM)
Yes the catholic doctrines are an abomination to the Word of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
When you make generic statements like that if would be only fair for you to provide examples.
@ navia if you really are honest and want to know what catholics teach, it will be wise for you to do research on your own, taking anybody's word for it is not going to help. No doubt you are going to encounter things that alarm, if you hear something from a protestant that seems to alarm you, go to a catholic website and ask.
and then keep praying. Hopefully God will give you grace to see the truth
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 3 2006, 09:28 PM)
QUOTE(Adstar @ Apr 3 2006, 09:10 AM)
Yes the catholic doctrines are an abomination to the Word of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
When you make generic statements like that if would be only fair for you to provide examples.
@ navia if you really are honest and want to know what catholics teach, it will be wise for you to do research on your own, taking anybody's word for it is not going to help. No doubt you are going to encounter things that alarm, if you hear something from a protestant that seems to alarm you, go to a catholic website and ask.
and then keep praying. Hopefully God will give you grace to see the truth
[right][snapback]51100[/snapback][/right]
Thanks for all of your replies, and the link. I will check it out
I guess I posted this in the wrong area and someone moved it here?
Koppted, what you mean by "if I am really honest" ?
All I done was ask a question. My best friend's husband was raised under a catholic mother and an athiest dad, so I was just looking for some answers. Today when I was thinking about all of this I thought to see if there was a Catechism of the Catholic Church online and there is. So I have the answer to this question and much more straight from their book.
Here is one.
Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
And here is another. http://www.datasync.com/~wizard/CCC.html
I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
Wholly united with her Son...
964. Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";[502] it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."[503] 534 678
965. After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."[504] In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."[505]
.. also in her Assumption
966. "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."[506] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: 491
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.[507] † ©
... she is our Mother in the order of grace
967. By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and... wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)[508] of the Church. 2679-507
968. Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[509] 494
969. "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[510] 149,501 1370
970. "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men... flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."[511] "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."[512] 2008 1545 308
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971. "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."[513] The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."[514] The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.[515] 2673-2679 1172 2678 † ©
III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
972. After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"[516] the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother. 773 829
In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.[517] 2853
IN BRIEF
973. By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was al ready collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
974. The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
975. "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, *CPG # 15).
LORD, NO!
These a doctrines of Demons!
Jesus is the only name through which mankind can be saved. Mary was mere mortal! This is just a remnant of the old Babylonian cult of the Queen of HEaven!
Please do ask God for guidance. Worshipping Mary or crediting her for anything tha tonly Jesus could do is an abomination and goes agains the first commandment. God would never have allowed such a person to raise his child!
The real Mary was humble and realized the Grace she had received. Her song is a song of thanks and praise. If the real Mary knew about the cult that was devoted to her, she would be horrified!
Behind the marian apparition hides Satan, eager as ever to direct the worship due to God toward him.
Watch carefully what these apparitions say: it is never clear and oftentimes full of contradictions. If you read the Bible on a regular basis you will catch "God's style". God's style is easily recognizeable. It' simple and to the point.
Mary's... well, Mary's speeches are different, and oftentimes incoherent.
Go check the excellent website: cuttingedge.org. Click on "search" (blue box on left column) and type in "Virgin Mary", and "searching inside "cuttingedge.org".
These a doctrines of Demons!
Jesus is the only name through which mankind can be saved. Mary was mere mortal! This is just a remnant of the old Babylonian cult of the Queen of HEaven!
Please do ask God for guidance. Worshipping Mary or crediting her for anything tha tonly Jesus could do is an abomination and goes agains the first commandment. God would never have allowed such a person to raise his child!
The real Mary was humble and realized the Grace she had received. Her song is a song of thanks and praise. If the real Mary knew about the cult that was devoted to her, she would be horrified!
Behind the marian apparition hides Satan, eager as ever to direct the worship due to God toward him.
Watch carefully what these apparitions say: it is never clear and oftentimes full of contradictions. If you read the Bible on a regular basis you will catch "God's style". God's style is easily recognizeable. It' simple and to the point.
Mary's... well, Mary's speeches are different, and oftentimes incoherent.
Go check the excellent website: cuttingedge.org. Click on "search" (blue box on left column) and type in "Virgin Mary", and "searching inside "cuttingedge.org".
QUOTE(senteami3 @ Apr 3 2006, 10:33 PM)
LORD, NO!
These a doctrines of Demons!
Jesus is the only name through which mankind can be saved. Mary was mere mortal! This is just a remnant of the old Babylonian cult of the Queen of HEaven!
Please do ask God for guidance. Worshipping Mary or crediting her for anything tha tonly Jesus could do is an abomination and goes agains the first commandment. God would never have allowed such a person to raise his child!
The real Mary was humble and realized the Grace she had received. Her song is a song of thanks and praise. If the real Mary knew about the cult that was devoted to her, she would be horrified!
Behind the marian apparition hides Satan, eager as ever to direct the worship due to God toward him.
Watch carefully what these apparitions say: it is never clear and oftentimes full of contradictions. If you read the Bible on a regular basis you will catch "God's style". God's style is easily recognizeable. It' simple and to the point.
Mary's... well, Mary's speeches are different, and oftentimes incoherent.
Go check the excellent website: cuttingedge.org. Click on "search" (blue box on left column) and type in "Virgin Mary", and "searching inside "cuttingedge.org".
[right][snapback]51131[/snapback][/right]
These a doctrines of Demons!
Jesus is the only name through which mankind can be saved. Mary was mere mortal! This is just a remnant of the old Babylonian cult of the Queen of HEaven!
Please do ask God for guidance. Worshipping Mary or crediting her for anything tha tonly Jesus could do is an abomination and goes agains the first commandment. God would never have allowed such a person to raise his child!
The real Mary was humble and realized the Grace she had received. Her song is a song of thanks and praise. If the real Mary knew about the cult that was devoted to her, she would be horrified!
Behind the marian apparition hides Satan, eager as ever to direct the worship due to God toward him.
Watch carefully what these apparitions say: it is never clear and oftentimes full of contradictions. If you read the Bible on a regular basis you will catch "God's style". God's style is easily recognizeable. It' simple and to the point.
Mary's... well, Mary's speeches are different, and oftentimes incoherent.
Go check the excellent website: cuttingedge.org. Click on "search" (blue box on left column) and type in "Virgin Mary", and "searching inside "cuttingedge.org".
[right][snapback]51131[/snapback][/right]
I'd like to see you carry the Son of God in your womb and live to tell about it. What do you think, that the whole of God's plan and the rescue of the human race hinged on a "mere woman" just happening along at the right time? No other woman before or after the birth of Christ has been fit to carry the Son of God. Even John the Baptist jumped for joy in his mother's womb (Elizabeth) at the sound of Mary's voice.
You are very mistaken, and I hope that it does not cost you your eternal soul. Even Jewish converts are recognizing the relationship between Mary of Christianity and the feminine references to wisdom in the O.T. Blessed is she among women.
sojourner
QUOTE(navia @ Apr 3 2006, 10:05 PM)
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 3 2006, 09:28 PM)
QUOTE(Adstar @ Apr 3 2006, 09:10 AM)
Yes the catholic doctrines are an abomination to the Word of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
When you make generic statements like that if would be only fair for you to provide examples.
@ navia if you really are honest and want to know what catholics teach, it will be wise for you to do research on your own, taking anybody's word for it is not going to help. No doubt you are going to encounter things that alarm, if you hear something from a protestant that seems to alarm you, go to a catholic website and ask.
and then keep praying. Hopefully God will give you grace to see the truth
[right][snapback]51100[/snapback][/right]
Thanks for all of your replies, and the link. I will check it out
I guess I posted this in the wrong area and someone moved it here?
Koppted, what you mean by "if I am really honest" ?
All I done was ask a question. My best friend's husband was raised under a catholic mother and an athiest dad, so I was just looking for some answers. Today when I was thinking about all of this I thought to see if there was a Catechism of the Catholic Church online and there is. So I have the answer to this question and much more straight from their book.
Here is one.
Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
And here is another. http://www.datasync.com/~wizard/CCC.html
I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
Wholly united with her Son...
964. Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";[502] it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."[503] 534 678
965. After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."[504] In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."[505]
.. also in her Assumption
966. "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."[506] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: 491
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.[507] † ©
... she is our Mother in the order of grace
967. By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and... wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)[508] of the Church. 2679-507
968. Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[509] 494
969. "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[510] 149,501 1370
970. "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men... flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."[511] "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."[512] 2008 1545 308
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971. "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."[513] The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."[514] The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.[515] 2673-2679 1172 2678 † ©
III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
972. After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"[516] the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother. 773 829
In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.[517] 2853
IN BRIEF
973. By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was al ready collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
974. The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
975. "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, *CPG # 15).
[right][snapback]51126[/snapback][/right]
Now where in all of this is Mary said to be worshipped or in anyway elevated to a God? You guys are stuck in gear. If you can't get past this, how in the dickens are you gonna make it to the next level of experience in God's plan?
sojourner
QUOTE(navia @ Apr 3 2006, 10:05 PM)
Koppted, what you mean by "if I am really honest" ?
All I done was ask a question. My best friend's.......
Hey navia, i wasn't questioning your honesty, although i can see how you would think i was, wow, i have a lot of apologies to make, anyways sorry about that. Anyway what i meant was that some people make pretense of asking questions when they have alterior motives, but let me quickly say i didnt see that in you, i thought you post was honest, sorry for not making that clear.
anyways i might have to send you stuff via private message, but also do not take anything i send you for fact, research it, look for something that nullifies, visit the website that senteami3 told you to, it will surely alarm you, but be critical of that as well, ask catholics in a catholic forum if this is really what they believe, all the while praying, so that you will know the truth. I will also pray for you.
God Bless
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 4 2006, 12:28 PM)
QUOTE(Adstar @ Apr 3 2006, 09:10 AM)
Yes the catholic doctrines are an abomination to the Word of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[right][snapback]50906[/snapback][/right]
When you make generic statements like that if would be only fair for you to provide examples.
and then keep praying. Hopefully God will give you grace to see the truth
[right][snapback]51100[/snapback][/right]
Oh i have indeed. And if people are prepared to look they will see that many in here have highlighted the abominations of the catholic church. But alas i have been threatened with removal from this forum for my stance against catholicism.
Seems this forum is into ecumenicalism and "brotherhood" with lies. It is playing its part in the world movement towards the victory of unity over the truth.
I suppose you can tell this in my last post in this forum. I do not leave this forum with joy but sadness indeed. To My two sisters in Jesus here, Rosie and Roxy my love to you both. May you be guarded from the lies of the wolves in sheep’s clothing in here.
To the owner of this forum. You sir are responsible for ALL that you allow to be preached in this forum. And for the oppression of true watchman who have been driven out of this forum. You are responsible for the moderators you have placed in authority. May you be forgiven
With that Goodbye to all. And remember trust in the Word of God, Not in the Word of men.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Moderators note: A rather strange exit from our brother Adstar, considering the last communication from me to him, re this forum's believe is NOT supporting the teaching of the RCC. Our plea to him however was to keep to the issue at hand and not to make it personal. The actual quote is "To speak the truth in love".
So to make it clear again. This is a Christian forum, not Catholic. The owner of the forum is clear about that. What we do insist upon however is that members discuss matters in a civil way and personal outbursts is discouraged.
I am the person who communicated with Adstar and I take full responsibility for it. I still stand by what I said to him.
Cornelius
So to make it clear again. This is a Christian forum, not Catholic. The owner of the forum is clear about that. What we do insist upon however is that members discuss matters in a civil way and personal outbursts is discouraged.
I am the person who communicated with Adstar and I take full responsibility for it. I still stand by what I said to him.
Cornelius
My grandmother used to always say, "You can be all right and yet all wrong," meaning, what you say may be technically correct but if it is said in the wrong spirit than it is wrong in God's eyes. I oppose RC teaching mainly because it is a gospel of works for salvation, but there are people who are in the RCC who are nevertheless saved but blinded. It does not help them see their way out if we speak unkindly to them. We are to be meek, and allow the force of the truth to engage men's consciences. To try to bypass the conscience by argumentative speech or coercion though a condescending attitude is to repeat the err of the Catholic church who coerced many under duress to alter their beliefs. This is also why as moderators we are to give people plenty of space to think and come to conclusions on their own without their being under an undue fear of being banned. Whether Adstar was being unkind in speech I do not know, but at any rate this was what Adstar was being spoken to about.
Adstar did not contact me, which I find odd. If he has something to say than he should pm me before making a public statement regarding me --- not that I care for myself, but it does cast a slur on me and upon all the moderators and therefore upon the whole forum.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.
Adstar did not contact me, which I find odd. If he has something to say than he should pm me before making a public statement regarding me --- not that I care for myself, but it does cast a slur on me and upon all the moderators and therefore upon the whole forum.
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.
QUOTE(sojourner @ Apr 4 2006, 01:41 AM)
QUOTE(navia @ Apr 3 2006, 10:05 PM)
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 3 2006, 09:28 PM)
QUOTE(Adstar @ Apr 3 2006, 09:10 AM)
Yes the catholic doctrines are an abomination to the Word of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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When you make generic statements like that if would be only fair for you to provide examples.
@ navia if you really are honest and want to know what catholics teach, it will be wise for you to do research on your own, taking anybody's word for it is not going to help. No doubt you are going to encounter things that alarm, if you hear something from a protestant that seems to alarm you, go to a catholic website and ask.
and then keep praying. Hopefully God will give you grace to see the truth
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Thanks for all of your replies, and the link. I will check it out
I guess I posted this in the wrong area and someone moved it here?
Koppted, what you mean by "if I am really honest" ?
All I done was ask a question. My best friend's husband was raised under a catholic mother and an athiest dad, so I was just looking for some answers. Today when I was thinking about all of this I thought to see if there was a Catechism of the Catholic Church online and there is. So I have the answer to this question and much more straight from their book.
Here is one.
Catechism of the Catholic Church http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
And here is another. http://www.datasync.com/~wizard/CCC.html
I. MARY'S MOTHERHOOD WITH REGARD TO THE CHURCH
Wholly united with her Son...
964. Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death";[502] it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:
Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross. There she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, joining herself with his sacrifice in her mother's heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim, born of her: to be given, by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross, as a mother to his disciple, with these words: "Woman, behold your son."[503] 534 678
965. After her Son's Ascension, Mary "aided the beginnings of the Church by her prayers."[504] In her association with the apostles and several women, "we also see Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation."[505]
.. also in her Assumption
966. "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."[506] The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: 491
In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.[507] † ©
... she is our Mother in the order of grace
967. By her complete adherence to the Father's will, to his Son's redemptive work, and to every prompting of the Holy Spirit, the Virgin Mary is the Church's model of faith and charity. Thus she is a "preeminent and... wholly unique member of the Church"; indeed, she is the "exemplary realization" (typus)[508] of the Church. 2679-507
968. Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."[509] 494
969. "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."[510] 149,501 1370
970. "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men... flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."[511] "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."[512] 2008 1545 308
II. DEVOTION TO THE BLESSED VIRGIN
971. "All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."[513] The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."[514] The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.[515] 2673-2679 1172 2678 † ©
III. MARY - ESCHATOLOGICAL ICON OF THE CHURCH
972. After speaking of the Church, her origin, mission, and destiny, we can find no better way to conclude than by looking to Mary. In her we contemplate what the Church already is in her mystery on her own "pilgrimage of faith," and what she will be in the homeland at the end of her journey. There, "in the glory of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity," "in the communion of all the saints,"[516] the Church is awaited by the one she venerates as Mother of her Lord and as her own mother. 773 829
In the meantime the Mother of Jesus, in the glory which she possesses in body and soul in heaven, is the image and beginning of the Church as it is to be perfected in the world to come. Likewise she shines forth on earth until the day of the Lord shall come, a sign of certain hope and comfort to the pilgrim People of God.[517] 2853
IN BRIEF
973. By pronouncing her "fiat" at the Annunciation and giving her consent to the Incarnation, Mary was al ready collaborating with the whole work her Son was to accomplish. She is mother wherever he is Savior and head of the Mystical Body.
974. The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son's Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.
975. "We believe that the Holy Mother of God, the new Eve, Mother of the Church, continues in heaven to exercise her maternal role on behalf of the members of Christ" (Paul VI, *CPG # 15).
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Now where in all of this is Mary said to be worshipped or in anyway elevated to a God? You guys are stuck in gear. If you can't get past this, how in the dickens are you gonna make it to the next level of experience in God's plan?
sojourner
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Navia I am very impressed by your willingness to ask questions and then to really research the issue. It is quite refreshing.
God Bless,
Kansas Dad
QUOTE(Shekel @ Apr 4 2006, 11:37 AM)
My grandmother used to always say, "You can be all right and yet all wrong," meaning, what you say may be technically correct but if it is said in the wrong spirit than it is wrong in God's eyes. I oppose RC teaching mainly because it is a gospel of works for salvation, but there are people who are in the RCC who are nevertheless saved but blinded. It does not help them see their way out if we speak unkindly to them. We are to be meek, and allow the force of the truth to engage men's consciences. To try to bypass the conscience by forceful speech is to repeat the err of the Catholic church who coerced many under duress to alter their beliefs. This is also why as moderators we are to give people plenty of space to think and come to conclusions on their own without their being under an undue fear of being banned.......
2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.
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2Ti 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
2Ti 2:25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
2Ti 2:26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will.
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I too hope Adstar will not leave as it will be a chance, to correct some including him and Shekel about the true church, the catholic church.
The Catholic teaching is not the "gospel of works for salvation" as you put it, although i understand what you are getting at. Recognizing that the faith that we have is not of our own making, but is something that we were freely given, because of the Grace of God.
Why?
because any one of us could just as well have read the bible and not believed, as we know, in society there are many people who have read the bible cover to cover, and yet not believed. So the fact that we believe is an act of Grace by God, its not something we achieved on our own.
Any scriptural bases for this?
Well belief is just the beginning of salvation, because as Saint James tell us,
"The Demons also believe and tremble" (James 2:19) So the fact that we believe is not enough because its God has softened our hearts to believe
What to do about it?
James asks the rhetorical question: "What use is it, (Z)my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?" (James 2:14)
And answers with this: "If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. " (James 2:15-17)James 2:15-17
He then Concludes Edited 1:41 PM (wrong verse quoted): "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone." (James 2:24)
So what catholics ask themselves is if we are freely given that gift of faith, what do we do with? This is but one tenet, there are other things that are important as well. i suppose i will stop here, until the next doctrine is challenged. peace
I am lifting this out , as this is a good excample of how one can twist a scripture into becoming quoted truth. If you read the above post fast, you get to this, and if you do not know your scripture, you will take it as a quote...its got the : and the " " to prove it
He then Concludes: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
I just wanted to place the real scripture here again;
James 2:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
There is a huge difference; He is saying: If you say you have faith and have no works, your faith is a dead faith, for an alive faith, will automatically produce works
I am also adding a copy of my answer to you in another thread.
Nothing can you add to that which Jesus did.
He says your best works are as filthy rags, so why would you offer them to "help" in your salvation.
But when we are saved, and realise that it is by grace alone, I give my life over so totally, that my "works" will please my Father and not bring His Name in disrepute. I see to it, that my "works" will be fitting to the Kingdom of my Father. He is now teaching me how to first look to Him, before attempting anything. I now can do anything through Jesus, who strengthens me. He is the Love in my heart, not the feeble efforts of love I tried to generate as a man and which I tried to pawn off to Him as good works. Without His grace I am NOTHING. With Him I can go anywhere He commands, but only in His strength.
So works yes, but not as part of my salvation. As a result of the thankfulness I have, because of His grace.
I would not dare to try and add anything of mine, to that which He has done.
We have to see the twist here: Add works to faith for salvation.
Or
what the Bible says: If you have a faith that is alive, you will have works to prove it.
QUOTE
He then Concludes: "You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone."
I just wanted to place the real scripture here again;
James 2:15-17 (King James Version)
15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
There is a huge difference; He is saying: If you say you have faith and have no works, your faith is a dead faith, for an alive faith, will automatically produce works
I am also adding a copy of my answer to you in another thread.
Nothing can you add to that which Jesus did.
He says your best works are as filthy rags, so why would you offer them to "help" in your salvation.
But when we are saved, and realise that it is by grace alone, I give my life over so totally, that my "works" will please my Father and not bring His Name in disrepute. I see to it, that my "works" will be fitting to the Kingdom of my Father. He is now teaching me how to first look to Him, before attempting anything. I now can do anything through Jesus, who strengthens me. He is the Love in my heart, not the feeble efforts of love I tried to generate as a man and which I tried to pawn off to Him as good works. Without His grace I am NOTHING. With Him I can go anywhere He commands, but only in His strength.
So works yes, but not as part of my salvation. As a result of the thankfulness I have, because of His grace.
I would not dare to try and add anything of mine, to that which He has done.
We have to see the twist here: Add works to faith for salvation.
Or
what the Bible says: If you have a faith that is alive, you will have works to prove it.
Romans 11:6 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
Rom 11:6
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
Rom 11:6
6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Yes the catholic doctrines are an abomination to the Word of God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
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Yes indeed they are, only by using the pre-constantine scriptures would one really find the truth of the matter.
I suggest perhaps, the restoration scriptures
Rom. 3:28-30, "For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
Rom. 4:5, "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness,"
Rom. 5:1, "therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"
Rom. 9:30, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith."
Rom. 10:4, "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes."
Rom. 11:6, "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
Gal. 2:16, "nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified."
Gal. 2:21, “I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”
Gal.3:5-6, "Does He then, who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 6Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness."
Gal. 3:24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith."
Eph. 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God. Not by works, lest any man should boast."
Phil. 3:9, "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
in my last post i quoted as james 2:15-17, my bad, i meant to quote James 2:24
(James 2:24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
its not a translation problem, its just i quoted the wrong verse, so i will correct it retroactively.
Now, I am not saying that you are justified by works alone either, as you pointed out works are nothing without love, but faith alone is not sufficient.
(James 2:24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
its not a translation problem, its just i quoted the wrong verse, so i will correct it retroactively.
Now, I am not saying that you are justified by works alone either, as you pointed out works are nothing without love, but faith alone is not sufficient.
isn't there a Catholic site somewhere that would love to have these guys as members?
they are stubborn lil rascals.
they are stubborn lil rascals.
James is examining two kinds of faith: one that leads to godly works and one that does not. One is true, and the other is false. One is dead, the other alive; hence, "Faith without works is dead," (James 2:20). But, he is not contradicting the verses above that say salvation/justification is by faith alone.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"
If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
Council of Trent: Canons on Justification.
CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
• Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
Also, notice that James actually quotes the same verse that Paul quotes in Rom. 4:3 amongst a host of verses dealing with justification by faith. James 2:23 says, "and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘and Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.'"
If James was trying to teach a contradictory doctrine of faith and works than the other New Testament writers, then he would not have used Abraham as an example. Therefore, we can see that justification is by faith alone and that James was talking about false faith, not real faith when he said we are not justified by faith alone.
Council of Trent: Canons on Justification.
CANON 9: "If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
CANON 12: "If any one shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed"
Canon 14: "If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
Canon 30: "If any one saith, that, after the grace of Justification has been received, to every penitent sinner the guilt is remitted, and the debt of eternal punishment is blotted out in such wise, that there remains not any debt of temporal punishment to be discharged either in this world, or in the next in Purgatory, before the entrance to the kingdom of heaven can be opened (to him); let him be anathema."
• Canon 33: "If any one saith, that, by the Catholic doctrine touching Justification, by this holy Synod inset forth in this present decree, the glory of God, or the merits of our Lord Jesus Christ are in any way derogated from, and not rather that the truth of our faith, and the glory in fine of God and of Jesus Christ are rendered (more) illustrious; let him be anathema.
This council declares that if anyone disagrees with it, they are damned.
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 4 2006, 08:39 PM)
in my last post i quoted as james 2:15-17, my bad, i meant to quote James 2:24
(James 2:24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
its not a translation problem, its just i quoted the wrong verse, so i will correct it retroactively.
Now, I am not saying that you are justified by works alone either, as you pointed out works are nothing without love, but faith alone is not sufficient.
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(James 2:24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
its not a translation problem, its just i quoted the wrong verse, so i will correct it retroactively.
Now, I am not saying that you are justified by works alone either, as you pointed out works are nothing without love, but faith alone is not sufficient.
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I know its a lot of scriptures to read, but I posted them so you can do so without much trouble. I am not fighting you , I care that you will see what the Word says.
You really have to throw out a lot of scripture to believe what you say is true...are you willing to do that?
C
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 4 2006, 11:39 AM)
in my last post i quoted as james 2:15-17, my bad, i meant to quote James 2:24
(James 2:24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
its not a translation problem, its just i quoted the wrong verse, so i will correct it retroactively
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(James 2:24) You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
its not a translation problem, its just i quoted the wrong verse, so i will correct it retroactively
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This is where everyone has bumped their heads on the works issue.
The works of the law is man doing what man can do for God. The works of the Spirit of God is God doing His works through you.
If you are demonstrating the Power of the Spirit of God then and only then are you doing His work.
You are not justified by works that you can do for God because you can't give God anything, He already owns everything.
So ask Him for His Spirit so that you can do His Work.
Charlie
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Apr 4 2006, 01:51 PM)
I know its a lot of scriptures to read, but I posted them so you can do so without much trouble. I am not fighting you , I care that you will see what the Word says.
You really have to throw out a lot of scripture to believe what you say is true...are you willing to do that?
C
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You really have to throw out a lot of scripture to believe what you say is true...are you willing to do that?
C
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I didn't feel you were fighting with me either. Yet all bible verses you quote do not contradict the fact that both faith and works are needed. Again faith alone will not suffice, unless it is accompanied by works. And works alone will not suffice, unless done through faith with love, because, if you give all the items to the poor to justify yourself, and you didn't do it with love, then the works mean nothing.
Paul said (Galatians 2:16 KJV) “a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” But James said (James 2:24) “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” There appears to be a contradiction here, but that is only due to interpretation. We cannot be justified by becoming good enough through the performance of deeds (“works”) of God’s instruction (“law”). We can only be justified through faith in Messiah, Who took upon Himself the penalty for our sins and imputes / accounts His righteousness to us. But if that faith does not produce results – if our actions (“works”) do not reflect what we believe – then it is really not faith at all: it is a “dead” faith. While works that are the fruit of faith are also according to God’s instruction , we do not perform them in order to be justified, but they are a necessary result of a real faith. Such “works” are properly performed as love for our Savior and our neighbor.
QUOTE(charlie @ Apr 4 2006, 01:53 PM)
This is where everyone has bumped their heads on the works issue.
The works of the law is man doing what man can do for God. The works of the Spirit of God is God doing His works through you.
If you are demonstrating the Power of the Spirit of God then and only then are you doing His work.
You are not justified by works that you can do for God because you can't give God anything, He already owns everything.
So ask Him for His Spirit so that you can do His Work.
Charlie
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The works of the law is man doing what man can do for God. The works of the Spirit of God is God doing His works through you.
If you are demonstrating the Power of the Spirit of God then and only then are you doing His work.
You are not justified by works that you can do for God because you can't give God anything, He already owns everything.
So ask Him for His Spirit so that you can do His Work.
Charlie
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Indeed you are not justified by works, the works have to be due to faith, and with love, because he initial faith is from grace.
but you can give God something, as he lets us know "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." (Matthew 25:37-40)
but again, even if you do all these, in your own way, you can't just do it to justify yourself, you have to do it out of love, not to attain justification
QUOTE(Hallah @ Apr 4 2006, 02:09 PM)
Paul said (Galatians 2:16 KJV) “a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” But James said (James 2:24) “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” There appears to be a contradiction here, but that is only due to interpretation. We cannot be justified by becoming good enough through the performance of deeds (“works”) of God’s instruction (“law”). We can only be justified through faith in Messiah, Who took upon Himself the penalty for our sins and imputes / accounts His righteousness to us. But if that faith does not produce results – if our actions (“works”) do not reflect what we believe – then it is really not faith at all: it is a “dead” faith. While works that are the fruit of faith are also according to God’s instruction , we do not perform them in order to be justified, but they are a necessary result of a real faith. Such “works” are properly performed as love for our Savior and our neighbor.
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You guys are going to have to bear with me a little bit for being stubborn, but Hallah, there is no contradiction, if you read it in context, you will see that Paul was talking about observation of Jewish Customs, let look at the verse
Galatians 2:14-16
"When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? "We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. "
I think its pretty clear what he is talking about, customs, which is quite different from "works" as it were, in the context that James put it
.,
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 4 2006, 12:10 PM)
QUOTE(charlie @ Apr 4 2006, 01:53 PM)
This is where everyone has bumped their heads on the works issue.
The works of the law is man doing what man can do for God. The works of the Spirit of God is God doing His works through you.
If you are demonstrating the Power of the Spirit of God then and only then are you doing His work.
You are not justified by works that you can do for God because you can't give God anything, He already owns everything.
So ask Him for His Spirit so that you can do His Work.
Charlie
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The works of the law is man doing what man can do for God. The works of the Spirit of God is God doing His works through you.
If you are demonstrating the Power of the Spirit of God then and only then are you doing His work.
You are not justified by works that you can do for God because you can't give God anything, He already owns everything.
So ask Him for His Spirit so that you can do His Work.
Charlie
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Indeed you are not justified by works, the works have to be due to faith, and with love, because he initial faith is from grace.
but you can give God something, as he lets us know "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me." (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...40;&version=31;)
but again, even if you do all these, in your own way, you can't just do it to justify yourself, you have to do it out of love, not to attain justification
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You still haven't understood Koppted. When everything is taken away, the whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water. Where will you get the food to feed Him and the drink to quench His thirst? When all flesh is locked in the prison of need how will you visit Him and cure His ills. Develope the faith you need now while the wood is green.
Luke 23
31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?"
Charlie
QUOTE(charlie @ Apr 4 2006, 02:21 PM)
You still haven't understood Koppted. When everything is taken away, the whole supply of bread and the whole supply of water. Where will you get the food to feed Him and the drink to quench His thirst? When all flesh is locked in the prison of need how will you visit Him and cure His ills. Develop the faith you need now while the wood is green.
Luke 23
31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?"
Charlie
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Luke 23
31 For if they do these things in the green wood, what will be done in the dry?"
Charlie
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Yet i have faith, not because of something i did, nor a formular for development thereof, but because it has been granted me by God through grace. Again, i could have just read the Bible cover to cover and not believed. The question is what do do with this faith. I'm not sure why you quoted luke 23, but it is out of context
Koppted, you have to look at the Trent statements and decide if you agree with them. I mean , really look at them and see what they are saying. A lot of Catholics today, I know have changed their view about it, but the core of the RCC still proclaims it in the way that states...works and faith is locked together for salvation, and not as you and me are saying that works are the result of faith and that yes, they go together, but only because they live in a symbiotic relationship with each other.
You cannot have works first and then faith, if you get my drift, but faith always comes first (alone) and then works are the fruit of the tree that is faith.
C
You cannot have works first and then faith, if you get my drift, but faith always comes first (alone) and then works are the fruit of the tree that is faith.
C
we are way off topic here and this thread is not about this. I think we have a few other threads running about this subject.
I am suppose to look out for this, and now I am causing it.
Sorry to whoever started this thread.
Its about Mary and her being a Co-Redemptrix
I am suppose to look out for this, and now I am causing it.
Sorry to whoever started this thread.
Its about Mary and her being a Co-Redemptrix
Back to the topic:
Mary, full of grace, and Luke 1:28
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia (TCE) under the topic of Hail Mary it says, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)." The Roman Catholic Church derives all sorts of teachings concerning Mary from the phrase "full of grace." Two of them are...
She was conceived without sin.
"...It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin..." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 722).
That she was redeemed from conception and was without sin.
"Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin, (CCC 491)
"From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life," (CCC 508).
http://www.carm.org/catholic/fullofgrace.htm
Mary, full of grace, and Luke 1:28
According to The Catholic Encyclopedia (TCE) under the topic of Hail Mary it says, "Hail (Mary) full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou amongst women", embodies the words used by the Angel Gabriel in saluting the Blessed Virgin (Luke, I, 28)." The Roman Catholic Church derives all sorts of teachings concerning Mary from the phrase "full of grace." Two of them are...
She was conceived without sin.
"...It was fitting that the mother of him in whom "the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" should herself be "full of grace." She was, by sheer grace, conceived without sin..." (Catechism of the Catholic Church, par. 722).
That she was redeemed from conception and was without sin.
"Through the centuries the Church has become ever more aware that Mary, "full of grace" through God, was redeemed from the moment of her conception. That is what the dogma of the Immaculate Conception confesses, as Pope Pius IX proclaimed in 1854: The most Blessed Virgin Mary was, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin, (CCC 491)
"From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life," (CCC 508).
http://www.carm.org/catholic/fullofgrace.htm
The phrase "full of grace" in Greek is "plaras karitos" and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament, neither one is in reference to Mary.
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Apr 4 2006, 02:33 PM)
Koppted, you have to look at the Trent statements and decide if you agree with them. I mean , really look at them and see what they are saying. A lot of Catholics today, I know have changed their view about it, but the core of the RCC still proclaims it in the way that states...works and faith is locked together for salvation, and not as you and me are saying that works are the result of faith and that yes, they go together, but only because they live in a symbiotic relationship with each other.
You cannot have works first and then faith, if you get my drift, but faith always comes first (alone) and then works are the fruit of the tree that is faith.
C
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You cannot have works first and then faith, if you get my drift, but faith always comes first (alone) and then works are the fruit of the tree that is faith.
C
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Cornelius, what is the pillar and foundation of Christs' truth?
That becomes the core question on how one views those statement in the council.
Nothing i said contradict the council in anyway. and indeed faith and works are locked together, one (faith) is freely given by God, the other (works) is what we do in appreciation for that faith freely given. because after we have believed, we still have free will, he doesn't force us to do anything about it.
QUOTE(c-los medrano @ Apr 4 2006, 01:40 PM)
isn't there a Catholic site somewhere that would love to have these guys as members?
they are stubborn lil rascals.
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they are stubborn lil rascals.
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Yes c-Los stubborness is abound quite the plenty. I can reccomend a Catholic sight for you to visit. It might be quite an eye opener for you.
God Bless,
K.D.
QUOTE(Cornelius @ Apr 4 2006, 02:49 PM)
The phrase "full of grace" in Greek is "plaras karitos" and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament, neither one is in reference to Mary.
"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).
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"And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth," (John 1:14).
"And Stephen, full of grace and power, was performing great wonders and signs among the people," (Acts 6:8).
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Actually that is wrong
The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene
many recent versions of the New Testament, including the KJV, give something like "highly favored daughter." the Greek kecharitomene implies more than that and it never mentions the word for "daughter"
Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo (used in Acts 6:8), which means to fill or endow with grace. and also because it is used in perfect tense, it indicates a continuinig effect (past, present and continuing)
QUOTE(Kansasdad @ Apr 4 2006, 03:05 PM)
QUOTE(c-los medrano @ Apr 4 2006, 01:40 PM)
isn't there a Catholic site somewhere that would love to have these guys as members?
they are stubborn lil rascals.
[right][snapback]51292[/snapback][/right]
they are stubborn lil rascals.
[right][snapback]51292[/snapback][/right]
Yes c-Los stubborness is abound quite the plenty. I can reccomend a Catholic sight for you to visit. It might be quite an eye opener for you.
God Bless,
K.D.
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I'm not Catholic nor would I want to get near their thought and beliefs.
I don't believe what Catholics do.
It's a respect thing. It's kind of like when you go to a persons home; you respect the way things are handled in their home. The guest shouldn't tell the home-owner (or the people inside) how things should be done and question them.
it's a respect thing...
bless you too bud!
yay!
QUOTE(c-los medrano @ Apr 4 2006, 03:11 PM)
I'm not Catholic nor would I want to get near their thought and beliefs.
I don't believe what Catholics do......
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I don't believe what Catholics do......
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Is there a list? or is it just one thing in particular?
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 4 2006, 03:35 PM)
QUOTE(c-los medrano @ Apr 4 2006, 03:11 PM)
I'm not Catholic nor would I want to get near their thought and beliefs.
I don't believe what Catholics do......
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I don't believe what Catholics do......
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Is there a list? or is it just one thing in particular?
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doesnt matter. it's off topic.
read up on the Catholicism thread.
the one that is 66 pages long.
anyways lets go back to the original subject.
Just remember when discussing these matters may it be presented in love.
Your ways are not His ways.....
Your understanding is not His understanding.........
Your church is not His church......This speaks for everyone's church...........
His church is inside each of you, it's how you build that temple will determine what truth comes from you.
Peace to you in all His understanding and not my own..............
I am not speaking to one person but to ALL who read this..........
Your ways are not His ways.....
Your understanding is not His understanding.........
Your church is not His church......This speaks for everyone's church...........
His church is inside each of you, it's how you build that temple will determine what truth comes from you.
Peace to you in all His understanding and not my own..............
I am not speaking to one person but to ALL who read this..........
QUOTE(c-los medrano @ Apr 4 2006, 03:11 PM)
QUOTE(Kansasdad @ Apr 4 2006, 03:05 PM)
QUOTE(c-los medrano @ Apr 4 2006, 01:40 PM)
isn't there a Catholic site somewhere that would love to have these guys as members?
they are stubborn lil rascals.
[right][snapback]51292[/snapback][/right]
they are stubborn lil rascals.
[right][snapback]51292[/snapback][/right]
Yes c-Los stubborness is abound quite the plenty. I can reccomend a Catholic sight for you to visit. It might be quite an eye opener for you.
God Bless,
K.D.
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I'm not Catholic nor would I want to get near their thought and beliefs.
I don't believe what Catholics do.
It's a respect thing. It's kind of like when you go to a persons home; you respect the way things are handled in their home. The guest shouldn't tell the home-owner (or the people inside) how things should be done and question them.
it's a respect thing...
bless you too bud!
yay!
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I can assure you that you would not be showing any disrespect. I do visit a Catholic forum and we have many non-Catholic posters that post often. They are never met with any animosity, or disrespect. They can ask any questions they have and are never treated as being evil. I am not promoting any sight as a replacement for this forum, but I think you would be quite surprised at the reception you received. I do not feel like I am showing disrespect by posting on this forum, quite the opposite in fact, it shows much respect that you would take the time to post and exchange ideas. c-los, the Catholic Church is not the evil bane of the world you think it is. Going to a forum and talking with Catholics will not corrupt your mind with satan inspired thoughts. And yes Cornelius, I know. This is WAY off topic.
Hey and thanks for the blessing!
K.D.
wow i never called you or the RCC "evil" nor do i think that.
that's one hellava assumption you threw there.
it's all good.
that's one hellava assumption you threw there.
it's all good.
QUOTE(c-los medrano @ Apr 4 2006, 04:53 PM)
wow i never called you or the RCC "evil" nor do i think that.
that's one hellava assumption you threw there.
it's all good.
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that's one hellava assumption you threw there.
it's all good.
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Sorry, I was in error to have said that. Please accept my apology.
K.D.
Hey c-los since you believe that catholic doctrine is against the word of God don't you think it will be a good thing for you to go to catholic forums and teach them the so that they can move away from errors?
I have been working diligently to retrieve email addresses here from many members. My intentions over the past several weeks are to create a forum and invite many of you to visit or join. I f you receive an email from me in the coming weeks, please feel free to visit and or join up.
There will be no fee, no tithing on my new froum, and the moderation staff will be limited.
If you get an email stop in, many of you are my friends, and I hope to see you and converse with you in a manner which does not have a watchful eye.
fair warning....apostacy will not be allowed.
Catholicism will not be entertained in this new forum
Nor will heirarchies
As soon as I am unpacked, I should be able to get things rolling
Jeep ( sorry for the guise) It was the only way to not get banned
There will be no fee, no tithing on my new froum, and the moderation staff will be limited.
If you get an email stop in, many of you are my friends, and I hope to see you and converse with you in a manner which does not have a watchful eye.
fair warning....apostacy will not be allowed.
Catholicism will not be entertained in this new forum
Nor will heirarchies
As soon as I am unpacked, I should be able to get things rolling
Jeep ( sorry for the guise) It was the only way to not get banned
QUOTE(Celica @ Apr 4 2006, 06:23 PM)
I have been working diligently to retrieve email addresses here from many members. My intentions over the past several weeks are to create a forum and invite many of you to visit or join. I f you receive an email from me in the coming weeks, please feel free to visit and or join up.
There will be no fee, no tithing on my new forum, and the moderation staff will be limited.
If you get an email stop in, many of you are my friends, and I hope to see you and converse with you in a manner which does not have a watchful eye.
fair warning....apostacy will not be allowed.
Catholicism will not be entertained in this new forum
Nor will heirarchies
As soon as I am unpacked, I should be able to get things rolling
Some of the discussion topics will cover the temple mount, archeological review and current digs
How archeological evidence points to a native american connection
endtime issues, and prophetic calendars
old covenant topics
new covenant topics including the death and resurrection of Yahshua
the relevance of the miqras (feasts)
Jeep ( sorry for the guise) It was the only way to not get banned
[right][snapback]51383[/snapback][/right]
There will be no fee, no tithing on my new forum, and the moderation staff will be limited.
If you get an email stop in, many of you are my friends, and I hope to see you and converse with you in a manner which does not have a watchful eye.
fair warning....apostacy will not be allowed.
Catholicism will not be entertained in this new forum
Nor will heirarchies
As soon as I am unpacked, I should be able to get things rolling
Some of the discussion topics will cover the temple mount, archeological review and current digs
How archeological evidence points to a native american connection
endtime issues, and prophetic calendars
old covenant topics
new covenant topics including the death and resurrection of Yahshua
the relevance of the miqras (feasts)
Jeep ( sorry for the guise) It was the only way to not get banned
[right][snapback]51383[/snapback][/right]
QUOTE(koppted @ Apr 4 2006, 06:16 PM)
Hey c-los since you believe that catholic doctrine is against the word of God don't you think it will be a good thing for you to go to catholic forums and teach them the so that they can move away from errors?
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wow, i never said its "againt the word of God."
Thats a pretty harsh statement.
your turn to apologize.
oh and no problem KD.
edit: i'm just bustin your chops koppted. be careful what you accuse people of.
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