Hey guys and gals. Where do you think we are in time> 69th 0r 69 and ahalf or the 70th week?
After looking at Matthew 24 and Daniel 9:24-27 I see us somewhere in this!!!
Will the end of the 70th week be when the rapture takes place or will it happen before the start of the 70th week??? Also in Daniel 8:25 is this where they say peace and safety?? And how long will peace and safety last before sudden destruction??? A quick time? Or 3 and a half years???
This is not a April fools joke!! hahahahaha Really its not!!
Just wanted to stir up some Christ minded folks!!!
Bro Mark

In my opinion neither, we're in the period between the 69th and 70th week:

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.'

The decree Daniel writes of is Nehemiahs commission to rebuild the city walls, given by Persian King Artaxerxes (see Nehemiah 2) in the fifth century BC. (The 'seven' Daniel writes of is seven years.) Seven 'sevens' is 49 years (7x7) and 62 sevens is 434 years (7x62). So, 49 plus 434 is 483 years.

It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

The Anointed One is Christ, and he was 'cut off' at the crucifixion in 30 AD. So, doing the math, Artaxerxes' commissioning of Nehemiah came in 453 BC.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Now Daniel jumps to the 70th Week of the prophecy, which is the seven year tribulation period, when the Antichrist will make a covenant with many, a covenant of death. This is the time of Jacob's trouble described in the book of Revelation, and the tribulation will not start until this covenant is initiated. So we are in between the 69th and 70th week.

what do you think the Israeli security fence is then? Do you suppose the wall they're building is a part of the prophecy? It's almost finished

I never connected the security wall possibly being a part of Daniel's prophecy...

Correction, for those of you who wish to follow this up in the historical record, I forgot to convert the 483 years into prophetic years, that is 360 days instead of 365.25. That puts the decree about 445 BC, not 453.

Good going Brother!!!!! Excellent breakdown!!!!!!

i have been studying what yr it is for over a yr. Here is what i think:

if you follow the ages of those after adam, (adam was 130 when he had seth) and so on, abraham was 85 yrs old 2094 yrs after creation. This is very simple math but there is some controversy as to if Abraham was born in 1949 or 60 yrs later. i have studied this and changed my mind and according to Stephens sermon in acts, believe him to be 85 in 2094. we know from acts that 430 yrs after the covenant with abraham is exodus. we know from kings that the temple was started 480 yrs after exodus. (again, some say the 480 left out some yrs) i have studied this too. Luke, matthew and the book of Boaz all agree in the lineage from exodus to david and 480 is really as much as it could be. then, the rest of kings until the captivity is 418.5 yrs. the captivity is 70 yr and 69x7 yrs in daniel from the time of the decree is 483 yrs. add all this up and include 2000 plus yrs since jesus was crucified until now. (jewish yrs) we are somewhere around the yr 5977 starting on Yom kippur of our 2006. i would love others thoughts on this because i firmly believe the tribulation starts in 5993/5994 and the second coming is of course 7 yrs later. Let me be the first to say...of that day and hour i do not know...i actually still think im missing something and there is so much controversy over some of these dates, that no one could possibly KNOW for sure.

Brother 5993 or 5994 is too far away!!! You have to notice in Daniel the time ceased when Jesus was cut off after 3 and a half years!!!!

Daniel 9:26-27

I understand Daniel...im just saying that i believe in 7000 yrs of man with the last 1000 being the rest day (millenium). If you count the time elapsed in the Bible plus the yrs since Jesus was ressurected, we are in about the yr 5977.

The date according to a Jewish Website is:

9 Nissan 5766, Friday, April 7, 2006 17:14 IST

http://www.jpost.com/

God rarely reveals exact dates for future events, therefore everyone should be very cautious and skeptical about date setting. As we can see, there is a 200+ year' difference in the calculated date given and the actual date.

I am aware the Jewish calander says it is 5766. They also say Jesus was not the Messiah. I have seen how they calculate this date. They of course, don't use Acts and Acts has several important time lines that calculate the date of the Birth of Abraham and so on. For example, if you only read the Genesis account, one would believe Abraham was born in 1948/9 when his father was 70. But Genesis only gives us part of the info. Acts gives us more and from that, we know that abraham was born 60 yrs later. (so thats 60 yrs of the 200 right off the bat) Also, they only count a few yr for the reign of Samuel and Saul. Why? I dont know. The old testament is very clear that Samuel lived a long life and says he Judged Israel all the days of his life. Scripture clearly say Saul reigned 40 yrs. The Jews dont count about 100 yrs right there. They are wrong about Jesus and about what yr it is from creation.

[quote=daysofnoah,Apr 1 2006, 11:52 AM]
In my opinion neither, we're in the period between the 69th and 70th week:
[END QUOTE]

there are several problems with your answer.
If possible, lets avoid preterists, futurists, dispenstionalism, pre and post trib labels and simply look at what the text is saying without worrying about where it might lead. If we know what it says, we can trust God with where it leads.

Notice in verse 24, "atone for wickedness" is one of the things done within the 70 weeks.
That can only be referring to Jesus and the cross. That means that Jesus must atone for wickedness within the 70 week period.

Secondly: Verse 25 clearly says that there would be 69 weeks from the decree until the Messiah comes. Messiah is Hebrew for Anointed One.

Third point: Verse 26 says he would be cut off AFTER the 69th week.

Here is the problem with your position: If Jesus comes at the END of the 69 weeks, and then is cut off AFTER the 69th week, and His atonement would take place WITHIN the 70 weeks, then He would have to have been crucified DURING the 70th week.
So how can we be between the 69th week and the 70th week, if Jesus was to make atonement for sin in the 70th week. That seems to be denying the cross.

I think it is a huge mistake to focus the 70th week on a future antichrist when it should be focused on Jesus! In fact this whole prophecy is about Jesus. Look again at every item listed in verse 24. Only Jesus can accomplish those things. His people can only accomplish them IN HIM.

In Christ
3am

[quote=daysofnoah,Apr 1 2006, 11:52 AM]
In my opinion neither, we're in the period between the 69th and 70th week:

"Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.'

The decree Daniel writes of is Nehemiahs commission to rebuild the city walls, given by Persian King Artaxerxes (see Nehemiah 2) in the fifth century BC. (The 'seven' Daniel writes of is seven years.) Seven 'sevens' is 49 years (7x7) and 62 sevens is 434 years (7x62). So, 49 plus 434 is 483 years.

It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

The Anointed One is Christ, and he was 'cut off' at the crucifixion in 30 AD. So, doing the math, Artaxerxes' commissioning of Nehemiah came in 453 BC.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Now Daniel jumps to the 70th Week of the prophecy, which is the seven year tribulation period, when the Antichrist will make a covenant with many, a covenant of death. This is the time of Jacob's trouble described in the book of Revelation, and the tribulation will not start until this covenant is initiated. So we are in between the 69th and 70th week.
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daysof noah has the correct rendering.

"The decree Daniel writes of is Nehemiahs commission to rebuild the city walls, given by Persian King Artaxerxes (see Nehemiah 2) in the fifth century BC. (The 'seven' Daniel writes of is seven years.) Seven 'sevens' is 49 years (7x7) and 62 sevens is 434 years (7x62). So, 49 plus 434 is 483 years.

It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

The Anointed One is Christ, and he was 'cut off' at the crucifixion in 30 AD. So, doing the math, Artaxerxes' commissioning of Nehemiah came in 453 BC.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Now Daniel jumps to the 70th Week of the prophecy, which is the seven year tribulation period, when the Antichrist will make a covenant with many, a covenant of death. This is the time of Jacob's trouble described in the book of Revelation, and the tribulation will not start until this covenant is initiated. So we are in between the 69th and 70th week"


The "cutting off" refers to the Lord having nothing and not restoring the Kingdom to national Israel at that time. All of the objectives of the 70 weeks will be fulfilled and completed during the 70th week which is still future and, in this vision, for national Israel. The nation of Daniel's people basically rejected the Lord. Technically, the prophecy has nothing to do with the Church. The linear time lapse for Daniel's people of the 483 years leads up to the last 7 years in which all of the objectives will be accomplished when the Lord returns to the nation. The scope of the visions of all of the O.T. prophets does not include events between the 69th and 70th weeks.

A futher note is this. The people of the prince that shall come were not the Romans. The invasion and destruction of Judea and the temple came by the Romans long after the 69th week ended (70 A.D.+). It will be the people (followers) of the little horn, human king of the north empowered by the first beast of Revelation, and angelic prince, who will do these things at the time of the end during the 70th week.

Rome is recorded as the ruling empire as a matter of history in the N.T., but not in visionary prophecy which is different. The Roman Empire is not described or named in visionary prophecy. The belief that it is there is an assumption based upon the historical fact that it was the next empire after the Greek.

[COLOR=blue][quote=Stephen,Jul 10 2006, 12:43 PM]
daysof noah has the correct rendering.

26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.
The Anointed One is Christ, and he was 'cut off' at the crucifixion in 30 AD. ...

Now Daniel jumps to the 70th Week of the prophecy, which is the seven year tribulation period, when [u]the Antichrist will make a covenant with many, a covenant of death. This is the time of Jacob's trouble described in the book of Revelation, and the tribulation will not start until this covenant is initiated. So we are in between the 69th and 70th week"
[End Quote]


Question:
You correctly state that after the 62 weeks, Christ was cut off at the crucifixion.
Then you say that the 70th week is yet future.
However the text says (v25) that there would be 69 weeks until the Messiah COMES. Then Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 62 weeks which is actually the 69th week (v26). "After the 69th week" would be into the 70th week. This is reinforced by the list of things to be accomplished which is given in verse 24. One of the things he would do WITHIN the 70 weeks is to "make atonement for sin." This must have been done at the cross. Jesus made atonement for sin at the cross. The focus of this prophecy is about Jesus. The only way that Israel can particpate in this prophecy is for them to accept Christ when he would come after the 69th week and complete his earthly ministry within 70 week period when he was crucified.

Sumarizing my question:
If Messiah was cut off After the 69th week and within the 70 weeks then the cross would have to be in the 70th week. So how can the 70th week be in the future.

3am,

"Sumarizing my question:
If Messiah was cut off After the 69th week and within the 70 weeks then the cross would have to be in the 70th week. So how can the 70th week be in the future ? "

There is one thing that is unique regarding the visions of the O.T. prophets, and certainly Daniel's regarding his people, national Israel. All 6 objectives for the time frame of the 70 weeks of years are decreed for his people, not the Church, and are just that. The specific focus of the vision is on national Israel only and it includes the ending of their past sins as a nation as well as the other objectives.

Until you grasp this truth you will not understand a very key precept that needs to be applied for knowing that the 70th week is still future and as well as many other truths recorded in the prophetic visions. The objectives will be met for Israel during the 70th week. Many verses of Scripture in both the O.T. and N.T make this truth very clear. If you have not discovered them I can give them to you.

It is true that some of the Lord's purposes for both national Israel and the Church (the body of Christ ...... both Jews and Gentiles who truly believe) parallel each other. But the nation of Israel (except for a few) did not accept Him at His first coming .....and still do not today. Their time for national acceptance is in the future when he returns to restore the Kingdom to Israel. There will be a believing remnant who will accept Him as their Messiah.

You also need to understand that the 69th week terminated at His coming to Israel as their King and before He went to the cross. His went to the cross just after the 69th week which places the event between the 69th and 70th weeks. The 70th week is still future and all of the unfulfilled visions related to Bible prophecy will begin with His judgment of an unbelieving world (including national Israel) and the judgment events will lead up to His visible return to rule the world from Jerusalem. There are no historical events that exactly match the visions of prophecy for the 70th week which is still in the future.

We may be very close to the beginning of the period and the believer needs to be ready for sure. The Lord will start His judgment process (hour of trial) without warning and the 70th week will run its course exactly as described in the visions of the Bible prophets.

3am,


I know you're not asking me specifically, but a very good point, nevertheless, that I've failed to actually "see" (if you know what I mean).

If we're going to argue the scriptures, than let's argue the scriptures according to what's written, and not by a belief already in our stomach. I like your style.

Anyway, Ellis Skolfield, of www.ellisskolfield.com has a very interesting graph of a timeline that flows from 533BC all the way to 1967, when the Jews took control of Jerusalem back from the gentiles (muslims).

Take a look at page 38 of this article: http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

It is said that a picture is worth a thousand words.

You know, as much as the muslims did throughout the last several centuries to persecute and kill Jews and Christians, take Israeli land, and attempt to take Europe, you'd think there'd be something in the Bible about it. Many of those that hold the 7 year trib. theory (Like I have, and may still...we'll see) don't know how the muslims fit into the picture, except to say that they'll unite with the Catholics, apostate Christians, and the rest of the world's religions to form a one-world religion. They surely don't know where they fit in historically.

That's where I'm at. Studying. Praying.

and thankfully, in Christ,

Mike

I'm not sure where he gets it, but Benjamin Baruch, of www.thedayofthelordisathand.com, says in his book that a 240 year error was made in the Jewish calendar after the Babylonian captivity. This would put the actual date at 6006, or early in the morning of the seventh (and third) day. Mr. Baruch's book is not the Bible, however, so who's to say?

In Christ,

Mike

3am,




Oh, yeah, almost forgot...It's interesting you should use a version that mentions "on a wing of the temple." Guess where the "Dome of the Rock" is--right on the old court of the gentiles.

Just an observation.

In Jesus,

Mike

Hey Mike,

I like Skolfield's focus on Islam and I hold the same endtime view regarding Islam if we are close to the 70th week. But the last approximately 2,000 years are not in the scope of the visions of the Bible prophets. Not even the Roman Empire for that matter except as an historical record in the N.T. Many have tried in vain to fit them in and have either been disasterously wrong or compromisingly incomplete at best. Like where is world war I, or world war II, or (don't ask the Islamic about this one) the killing of 6 million Jews in Europe ? One can still get to an Islamic equasion for the 70th week without trying to stuff 2,000 years of history into a space that is just not there. I know this truth causes problems for some traditional predisposed doctrines on prophecy, but it should be cause for re-evaluation.

Why would the Lord leave out 2,000 years of eathly events and not include them in the scope of His prophetic visions ? Because He does not need them to complete His beginning and end game. Also notice that the clock ticks when national Israel is in the Land and it stops when they are not. They are back now to experience their 70th week just as the visions tell, but the Lord is still tarrying. No tick-tock just yet. Why ? Many traditional doctrines were developed without the expectation of national Israel's inclusion in the picture. What should we think today ?

Why is there no mention of Mohammud and the start of the Islamic religion in the prophetic visions of the Bible ? His name does not even appear in Scripture. I think it is because the Lord does not like him for some reason ... maybe ? Where is Parthian rule over the Middle East and what about the British Empire. Not there.

Do you think maybe it is because the Lord wants as many humans that will turn to Him over a period of time to save them before He ends the game ? Good thing for you and I that He has waited this long and didn't push the button back in the first century ..... He could have done it. Praise the Lord !!!

His delay also fits with His reference to and plan for the time of the end .... be ye therefore ready, for at a time that you think not the Son of Man will come. He was asked by His early followers (who were all Jews) if He would restore the Kingdom to Israel at that time and He said that it was not for them to know the time. What if He would have said to them that it would not be at least for 2,007 years ? How would this have affected their motivation to communicate the Gospel ?

Stephen,

Since you bring up some valid questions in your response, I thought I'd insert what it seems Skolfield's response from his articles/books are, simply to promote discussion and make sure that the info is fully addressed.

Granted, not all world events will be chronicled in scripture, but the major ones involving the Jews would be (one would think anyway).



From Skolfield:

During the Christian Era the Jews were dispersed into the
nations. For centuries the Jews have been hounded from country
to country, made slaves of: were robbed, beaten, and murdered
wholesale, as in Nazi Germany ... but never again. God has
promised that never again would the Jews suffer anything like
that holocaust in which 6,000,000 of the physical seed of Abraham
were murdered:
Jer 30:3-8 And these are the words that the LORD spake
concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the
LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not
of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail
with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on
his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into
paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it:
it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved
out of it.
56 The False Prophet
A more moving account of the atrocities of the Nazi gas cham-
bers would be hard to imagine. There, in the winter snow, stood
line after line of Jewish men, naked, their hands in front of them
to cover their nudity. Shivering bodies, numb with cold, beatings
and starvation. Faces pale, they shuffled slowly into oblivion. As
Your Son hung naked on the cross so long ago, so now it has
happened unto Your people, Oh God.
But that is all in the past now. The time of Jacob's trouble is
long over. The Lord has broken Satan's yoke from off their neck,
and the Jews will never be in bondage again.
Jer 30:7 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the
LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck,
and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve
themselves [make slaves] of him.
As of 1948, the Jews are no longer dispersed in the nations.
On May 15th of that year, Israeli Prime Minister, David Ben-
Gurion, stood on the floor of the Knesset and declared the nation
of Israel to be a sovereign state. That is a historic fact nobody can
dispute. As of 1948, the woman, Israel, is no longer in the
wilderness, and since she isn't, Rev 12:6 is fulfilled.


If 6,000,000 deaths don't culminate a "Jacob's trouble" than I just don't know what would.




Therein lies the debate...Is it or isn't it?




All "truth" should be examined to see if it is really truth or just speculation.



Luckily, Skolfield's comments are anything but replacement theology--you and I both know scripture clearly refutes that.

On page 63 of http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters1-9.pdf, Skolfield does a good job of listing scriptures that refute replacement theology in a footnote. Here it is:

Gen 17:7 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the physical seed
of Abraham. Lev 26:44-45 shows that Israel’s restoration was not to be conditional. Isa 11:11 speaks of a second restoration of the Jews. Isa 26:20-27:1 speaks of a final hiding of the children of Israel followed by Satan’s complete judgment. Isa 27:12-13, in context with the above, speaks of a final re-gathering of Israel. Jer 30:4-8 speaks of the time of Jacob’s trouble and future restoration.
Jer 30:18-24 states that a restoration for the tents of Jacob will take place in the latter days, i.e. not the first restoration of 536BC. Jer 31:35-37 speaks of the permanent nation of Israel. Jer 33:24-26 is a definitive unconditional covenant with Jacob's descendants. Eze 16:60-63 speaks of an unconditional everlasting covenant with the Jews.
Eze 37:1-28 speaks of an unconditional future restoration of Israel, followed closely by Armageddon in Exe 38-39. Hos 11:9-10 speaks of a future restoration of Israel from the West. Joe 3:1-3 predicts the restoration of Judah, followed by Armageddon. Amo 9:11-15 speaks of an Israel restored to the land. Zec 8:8 speaks of a post-exilic, unconditional restoration of the Jews to Jerusalem and the land. Zec 10 and 12 are more prophecies of a future restoration of the Jews. Zec 14 speaks of Armageddon, with the Jews in Jerusalem. Luk 21:24 speaks of a dispersion, the time of the Gentiles, and a restoration following. Rom 11:11 states that the Jews have not fallen so as to be lost. Rom 11:17 states that only some of the branches were broken off. Rom 11:17 states that the church was grafted in among the Jews. Rom 11:28 states that the gospel-age Jews are still elect. Rom 11:29 states that God's calling of the Jews is irrevocable. Rev 7:4-9 speaks of the 12 tribes of Israel in the Christian Era. Rev 12:1-6 speaks of Israel in the Christian Era. Rev 15:3 is a passage primarily about the Christian Era; there are two songs, one for the Jews, one for the Gentile church.



(When copy and pasting, a lot of apostraphes and quotes came in as little boxes.)

From page 20 of: http://www.ellisskolfield.com/pdf/TFPChapters10-17.pdf

Nowhere in the Bible have those figurative identities been
changed. Throughout Scripture, Lion remains Babylon or Iraq,
Bear remains Medo-Persia or Iran, and Leopard remains Greece or
Syria-Lebanon. So when we read about a beast in Revelation with
those same names, we have every reason to believe the Lord is
telling us of the offspring of those empires:
Rev 13:1-2 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a
beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten
horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads
Leopard-Bear-Lion 21
the name of blasphemy. And the beast which I saw was like
unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and
his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him
his power, and his seat, and great authority.
And there he is! The Leopard-Bear-Lion Beast of Revelation
thirteen (LBL). Notice that this one beast looks like all three of
those old empires rolled into one. So what has tied the three
separate Middle Eastern states of Iraq, Iran, and Syria together
during the last two thirds of the Christian Era? Islam and the false
prophet, Muhammad, that’s what! Though they have sometimes
battled each other, for thirteen centuries Iraq, Iran, Syria and
associates, including Saudi Arabia, have been the home of the
radical Moslems, the lair of assassins, a haven for terrorists and a
roost for all who hate Israel and the Christian nations.
That’s not guesswork theology, folks. The Islamic states have
historically been the enemies of the West and they still are today.
Furthermore, those radical Moslem states will continue to be
enemies of God’s people until Jesus returns. Why? Well, notice
who empowers those countries, the dragon! And Satan has always
been the implacable enemy of God and of God’s children. Do not
be deluded that the Moslem god, Allah, is the same as our
Heavenly Father. Our Sovereign God is a God of love, a word
conspicuously absent from the Koran. There may indeed be loving
Moslems, but the Koran doesn’t teach it.
So the Leopard-Bear-Lion is Syria-Iraq-Iran, and their radical
Islamic friends. But now we need to know when this beast will be
in power, and to establish that, we need a little review:
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave
out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and
the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two
months.
22 The False Prophet
The 42 months of Rev 11:2 were explained at length in
Chapter 5. They were 1278.34 years, and it was 1278.34 years
from the construction of the Dome of the Rock until Jerusalem
was again under Jewish control. In the prophecy of the Leopard-
Bear-Lion, we again see 42 months (Rev 13:5). LBL was granted
authority over Jerusalem for 42 months:
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking
great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto
him to continue forty and two months.
The Leopard-Bear-Lion also was given authority to “blaspheme
God’s tabernacle” for 42 months, so these prophecies are clearly
parallel. They are obviously about the Moslem rule of Jerusalem
(688-1967AD). From the above verses we can now positively
identify the Leopard-Bear-Lion beast of Revelation 13 as the
Moslem states of the Middle East. LBL is not some future
antichrist after all. LBL are those Islamic nations that now stand
against Israel and the West. Now let’s look at Rev 13:3-10 in
detail. Explanatory notes are again set within the text, in italics:
Rev 13:3-4 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded
to death [The battles of Tours and Vienna struck death blows
against Moslem expansion into Europe that destroyed their
hope of world conquest]; and his deadly wound was healed
[After WW2, the western nations sent a major portion of their
liquid capital into the Middle East which enabled the Moslem
states to rebuild]: and all the world [Remember that Bible
prophecy is ethnographic – The "whole world" refers to the part
of the planet John knew about, John’s known world. The Lord
is not telling us of China, Australia, or the Americas here]
wondered after the beast. And they worshiped the dragon
[This verse shows that Islam is not another route to heaven –
The dragon is Satan, ergo, The Moslems worship Satan] which
gave power unto the beast [LBL]: and they [the Moslems]
worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who
is able to make war with him? [During the 1st Jihad the
Moslems were indeed victorious over the weaker Christian

I do question the part highlighted in red.



From page 32:

Two Horns continues to exist today as the western nations.
The Beast with “two horns like a Lamb” would appear to be
Christian, but speaks like the dragon. In other words, it
would be aggressive and ungodly in its behavior. When the
“Christian” nations conquered the Holy Land, they did not
destroy the Dome of the Rock, nor drive the Moslems
out of the land, so they were in the presence of the Leopard-
Bear-Lion beast. Today, the western nations are in bondage
to Arab oil, so it is Two Horns that is bringing the likeness
of the first militant Islam back to life by financing this new
Jihad that threatens us all.
The Last Trumpet, 1Co 15:52, Rev 10:7, Rev 11:15
Two-Horned Beast 33
1948, Great Britain controlled the Holy Land. They did not destroy
the Dome of the Rock, nor drive the Moslems out. They were
another horn “in the sight” of the Leopard-Bear-Lion. Thus, the
British Mandate was the second horn of the Two-Horned Beast.
In 1948, the new nation of Israel was established and that
ended Gentile domination of the Holy Land, forever. But twice
during the 42 months, “Christian nations” did rule in the presence
of the Leopard-Bear-Lion, so the western, so-called “Christian”
nations are the beast with Two Horns like a Lamb.

Anyway, Skolfield does do a fairly thorough job. If his history is factual, I find it hard to argue with history if it does fit the Bible. This, of course, does not rule out some sort of "dual-fufillment," be it physical or spiritual.

Pinpointing in the Bible exactly what is figurative and what is literal could be the main center of discussion, giving the different interpretations that result from either standpoint.

In Christ,

Mike

Thank you for your kind comment Mike.
BTW, how do you put your quotes into neat little boxes.
I am a newbie here and havent figured all that out.

This turned out to be much longer than I intended.
But there is so much to say about Jesus in this prophecy that I feel is being overlooked.

It is true as you said, a picture is worth a thousand words.
But the Bible is not just words. it is God's Word. It is Spiritual!
Skolfield's time line in the link you gave me to his book is nice but does it square up with the Scriptures?

Skolfield dates the cross at 32AD at the end of the 89 weeks.
That is impossible.
Dan 9:24 does not say 89 weeks until the cross (Messiah is cut off).
He says 89 weeks until Messiah COMES. He must come FIRST before he is cut off.
And if he came as Messiah at the end of the 69 weeks, he cant be cut off at the end of the 69weeks because his ministry lasted at least 3 1/2 years.
It says he was cut off AFTER the 69 weeks (v26).
He came in AD 27 when Jesus was baptized and was anointed with the Holy Spirit.
Messiah means "Anointed One"
That is why Jesus said after he was baptized, "the time is fulfilled! The kingdom of God is at hand" Mark 1:15.
What time? the end of the 69 weeks.
So the 69 weeks could not end with the cross. He was cut off AFTER the 69th week.
The point I have been trying to make is that this prophecy is about JESUS.
It seems that everyone wants to make it be about something else, anything except Jesus.

Another problem. Nothing happened in 444BC with regard to the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. And furthermore, 69 weeks or 483 years spans from 444 to 39AD. Far beyond the cross.

Lets stick to the Word, not charts and lets see what it says about Jesus.
The Bible says there would be 69 weeks until the Messiah the prince comes starting from the decree to build and restore Jerusalem
There were three decrees given in the book of Ezra:
1. The decree form Cyrus (EZ 1:2-4) issued in 538 BC which gave the Jews permission to return to Judah and rebuild the temple. But the temple is not the same as the city. No mention is made in this decree to rebuild the city. This cannot be the decree Daniel referred to.

2. the second one is found in 520 BC in Ezra 6:1-12 when Darius I issued the decree for the second time to rebuild the temple. This decree also had nothing to do with rebuilding Jerusalem.

3. The third time is the charm. This decree was given to Ezra himself (7:12-26) and was issued by king Artaxerxes to install a local government with public officials, restore tnhe authority to rquisition funds from the royal treasury, teach the people God's law and even institute capital punishment in Jerusalem. Ezra immediately returned to Juda in the summer of 457BC to start work on the city. Ezra is not written in strict chronological order. The decree is in chapter 7 but he sotry of what happened is in Ezra 4 and later in Nehemiah, who completed the work specified by Artaxerxes in his decree to Ezra in Ezra 7. The date of 457BC for the decree is one of the most firmly established dates in the Old Testament.

Now we can use 457BC as a starter and put it to the test. 383 years later (457 - 483) is 26AD plus one for there not being a zero year and we end at 27AD, the precise date when Jesus was anointed for his ministry as the Messiah.

Since Messiah would be cut off after the 69th week, as I mentioned in my earlier post, verse 24 says he would make atonement for sin during the 70 weeks. We should look for the cross in the 7oth week. We dont have to go far.
Verse 27 says "He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Remember this prophecy is about Jesus. Again, let's put away our preconcieved notions and just listen to the text.

It does not say an antichrist will come and MAKE a covenant. It says "HE will CONFIRM a covenant." There is nothing in this prophecy about anyone MAKING a covenant with the Jews.
In fact, the KJV (before modern dispensationalism) properly translates it "He will confirm THE covenant." The Hebrew word here means to make strong or strengthen. The verb is related to the Hebrew word for "a strong man" or a "warrior." When Hebrew writers wanted to refer to the making of a new covenant, they used the verb "to cut" to express that action. Daniel did not say he would "cut" a covenant, but confirm a covenant, which means an existing one. If the passage is about Jesus then, didnt Jesus in fact confirm or strengthen God's covenant with Israel with his own blood when He died on the cross? Before it was confirmed by the blood of Goats and calves, but now by better blood, the blood of Christ. (see Hebrews 9:16-28). DO YOU SEE ANY THING HERE THAT I MIGHT HAVE MISSED WHICH REFERRS TO MAKING A NEW COVENANT THAT DID NOT EXIST BEFORE? Where is even the hint of an antichrist making a new covenant with Israel after the rapture of the church?

In fact, the text goes on to say that in the "middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering." Follow this:
if our dates are correct for 457 BC as the starting point and 27 AD for the Baptism of Messiah, then, the seventh week would end 7 years later in 34AD. That means that the middle of the 70th week (3 1/2 years) is 31AD, precisely when Jesus was crucified. At the very precise moment, the vail in the temple was torn from top to bottom" Mat 27:51 signifying that the sacrificial system had come to an end in God's plan, for the Lamb of God had died to take away the sins of the world. It is true that the Jews who rejected Christ, continued offering sacrifices, but anyone who reads the book of Hebrews, knows that those sacrifices were meaningless in God's plan, because Jesus Christ is now our High Priest in the Sanctuary in heaven (Heb 8:1f).
Not only did Jesus put and end to sacrifices, but Dan 9:24 also says he would anoint the most holy place during the 70 weeks. This he certainly did when he ascended to the Holy of Holies with his own blood to the right hand of God's throne "to do away with sin" (Heb 9:26).
It is all about Jesus!!!!

Jesus conversation with the two disciples on the road to Emaus after the cross was very telling:

"And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself... And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight." Luke 24:27, 31. NO ONE CAN UNDERSTAND THE OLD TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES UNLESS THEIR EYES ARE OPENED BY CHRIST AND THEY KNOW HIM!!!
"For no matter how many promises God has made, they are "Yes" in Christ. And so through him the "Amen" is spoken by us to the glory of God" 2 Cor 1:20.

All of the Old Testament, including Daniel 9 is about Jesus.
It is all about Jesus. This prophecy is not about Israel. It is about Jesus. Israel had 70 weeks to receive the Messiah, accept his atonement and put an end to sin, In HIM!!! it is all about HIM!
Sorry if I am overdoing it, but it pains me to see so many take Christ out of the prophecies.
Want to see something beautiful?
Read Daniel 9:24 again and ask, "Who alone can do all of these things?"

Israel as a nation failed to accept Him and thus take part in the fulfilling of the 70 weeks so Jerusalem was destroyed (which incidently was not included in the list of things to be acomplished during the 70 weeks) and the people scattered, but it is not as though God has rejected them! Paul gives two reasons in Romans 11, One, "Paul himself is an Israelite!." Israel is not rejected because there are many Israelites who accepted Christ. The second reason Paul gives is There is at the PRESENT TIME, a remnant of Israel, being saved by Grace (v5). New Testament Israelites were true Israelites, not by physical birth but IN CHRIST (Rom 9:6-9)! And further more, even Gentiles are being grafted into the same Olive tree, that non believing Jews were cut off from. There is only one tree, only one Jesus. So we Gentiles are united with the believing remnant of Israel, and God is NOW saving "All Israel" (v16) by grafting them all into the one tree. Remember, "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring" (Rom 9:6, 8). The "All ISRAEL" who are being saved, are the true Israelites who accept Christ.

Romans 11:30 Just as you [Gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have NOW received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they [Israelites] too have NOW become disobedient in order that they [Israelites] too may NOW receive mercy AS A RESULT of God's mercy to you.

Notice the NOW (3x). God is NOW fulfilling his promise to Israel. They don't have to wait till some future time when the Gentile church is out of the world. In fact the Gentile church plays a distinct role in the salvation of all Israel.
In other words, It is all about Jesus!!!
In fact, I believe if we are honest with the Scriptures, there is nothing in Romans 11 that mentions a future restoration of national Israel after the church has been raptured away. THE FUTURE IS NOW! IN CHRIST!

Maybe the reason many dont see Islam in Dan 9 is because Dan 9 is not about Islam, It is about Jesus.

This turned out much longer than I intended but there is just too much to say, I just couldn't stop.
If you wnat to break it apart and deal with any one part at a time, that is fine with me. My only request is the we stick to the text, and not pre-concived ideas that must be forced into the text because WE think something should be there.
God Bless
3am

Thanks, Stephen, for your response.
I enjoy good positive dialog with one who has obviously spent great amounts of
time studying God's Word. We may not see things exactly alike, but if we continue
to talk, and STICK TO THE WORD. The light shines brighter and brighter.

[quote=Stephen,Jul 11 2006, 12:28 PM

"Sumarizing my question:
If Messiah was cut off After the 69th week and within the 70 weeks then the cross would have to be in the 70th week. So how can the 70th week be in the future ? "

There is one thing that is unique regarding the visions of the O.T. prophets, and certainly Daniel's regarding his people, national Israel. All 6 objectives for the time frame of the 70 weeks of years are decreed for his people, not the Church, and are just that. The specific focus of the vision is on national Israel only and it includes the ending of their past sins as a nation as well as the other objectives.
[END QUOTE]

I didnt say anything about the church. I am simply asking a question about Daniel 9:24-27.

[QUOTE]
You also need to understand that the 69th week terminated at His coming to Israel as their King and before He went to the cross. His went to the cross just after the 69th week which places the event between the 69th and 70th weeks.
[END QUOTE]

While it is true that all 6 objectives were decreed for His people in the time frame of the 70 weeks. But HOW are his people going to accomplish them? The only way that could be possible is for the to accept their Messiah the prince who would come after 69 weeks. Jesus accomplished all of the six points.
1. To finish the transgression
2. To make an end of sins

There are two different words for sin used here. The first, "finish transgression" is sin as rebellion against God. The second phrase "put an end to sin" means sin as missing the mark or the standard. It means breaking God's law. Israel was to put away sin and develop a righteous society, in order to be prepared for the Messiah to come.

The problem is that Israel never was able to do that. That was the purpose of the sacrifices offered at the sanctuary. There they were forgiven for their sins by Grace thru faith in the Lamb who would come. So Jesus Himself "finished transgression" and "put an end to sin" with a better sacrifice than the blood of Goats and calves.
"But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages TO DO AWAY WITH SIN by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb 9:26). The only way that Israel could ever Do away with sin, is by accepting her Messiah who did in fact put an end to sin by his own sacrifice! It is all about Jesus, not Israel. Israel can only participate in what Jesus has already DONE!

3. To atone for wickedness. Jesus did this too. "God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement" (Rom 3:25), Are we to believe that Israel Makes her own atonement for her wickedness? Only Jesus can do this, and Israel can only make atonement In Christ.

4. Tto bring in everlasting righteousness.
"Christ has become for us (and Israel) our righteousness" (1 Cor 1:31).

5. To seal up vision and prophecy.
The New Testament has some powerful stuff that is far too involved to get into here.
But again, Only Jeus can seal up the vision (Dan 8) and prophecy.

6. To anoint the most holy.

It is often overlooked that Dan 9 is Gabriel's explanation of the portion fo the Vision in Daniel 8 that Daniel himself did not understand. Gabriel had already explained the ram and the goat of the vision, but the part he did not explain was the little horn's attack on the sanctuary and the 2300 days. Daniel did not understand that as evident in his prayer at the begining of chapter 9.
It is obvious from Hebrews 9 that Jesus did in fact anoint the Most Holy place with his own blood when he ascended to the right hand of the Father, after the resurrection, well within the 70 weeks, if they are continuous.

JESUS DID ALL OF THIS ALREADY!!!
This prophecy is all about Jesus.
Israel participates only in Christ.

"The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ... you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Gal 3:15, 16, 26-29.

According to Romans 11, Now Jesus is fulfiling the promise to the Remnant of Israel, buy means of the Gentile believers.
Israel does not have to wait 2000 years for the church to get out of the way. God uses the church to save "all Israel" by making them jealous.
Please see my lengthy discussion I just posted a few min ago to bonomike.

[QUOTE]
Until you grasp this truth you will not understand a very key precept that needs to be applied for knowing that the 70th week is still future and as well as many other truths recorded in the prophetic visions. The objectives will be met for Israel during the 70th week. Many verses of Scripture in both the O.T. and N.T make this truth very clear. If you have not discovered them I can give them to you. [END QUOTE]

Please show me just one verse that mentions a time span of a specific number of years like the 70 weeks / 490 years, which breaks in up with a gap. The natural reading of "Seventy weeks are decreed" means 70 continuous weeks. No where in scripture does the bible mention a specific time period and then have it mean something else, broken up with a gap. The burden of proof is on the one trying to say that the Bible means something different from what it says naturally.
If a father were to tell his son he would spend 70 minutes with him, he doesnt mean a minute a day for 70 days. Or a minute a year for 70 years. Where does the Bible explain that 70 weeks does not mean 70 weeks?

[QUOTE] It is true that some of the Lord's purposes for both national Israel and the Church (the body of Christ ...... both Jews and Gentiles who truly believe) parallel each other. But the nation of Israel (except for a few) did not accept Him at His first coming .....and still do not today. Their time for national acceptance is in the future when he returns to restore the Kingdom to Israel. There will be a believing remnant who will accept Him as their Messiah. [END QUOTE]

Where does the Bible say that in the future there will then be a believing remnant who will accept him? Romans 11 certainly does not say that. Paul said in Romans 11 that God has not rejected Israel because He as an Israelite is accepted and also because there is now currently, "at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace." and Israel is being saved Now by being grafted in along with gentiles to the same tree. Verses 29 and 30 explain that Israel's election is Irrevocable because, "just as you [gentiles] who were at one time disobedient to God have NOW received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they [Israel] too have NOW become disobedient in order that they too may NOW receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

GOD IS NOW (mentioned 3 times) fulfilling his promise, covenant, to Israel! Please show me where in here do you se anything about another future fulfilling appart from the arousal of Israel by Gentiles being saved??? Please lets stick to the text! This is the one so many point to for a future restoraton of national Israel. But Paul only talks bout it happening NOW.
Again, I say, it is all about Jesus!
Follow the Lamb!
If Israel had followed the Lamb they offered as a sacrifice every day, they would have accepted the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.
We cannot interpret these prophecies as though Jesus had not died and made a difference. That is what the Christ rejecting rabis did in His day. Let's not make the same mistake. The true Israelites, like Paul, accepted him and are still His people NOW!
Again- please read my prior post.
God Bless
3am

bonomike,

Thanks for displaying Skolfield's information and for your comments. I think this kind of dialog promotes better understanding of the prophetic Scriptures.

I see exactly what Skolfield is doing by way of supporting his views with certain visions of the prophets where he takes them and and applies them to fit into the last 2,000 years of linear history.

It is quite clear to me that Jeremiah 30 places the regathering of Israel from the nations before the time of "Jacob's" trouble. Their time of trouble in this context would then have to be in the future 70th week, not at any time before the regathering and possession of the Land of Israel. This is just one example. I see no basis in prophetic Scripture for the double fulfillment applications either that some use to substantiate their overviews. This is not necessary and can be confusing.

The frame work is really quite simple if one applys the 70th weeks of years decreed for Israel with the 69th in the past and the 70th in the future. If you review and study all visionary prophecy contained in the Bible you can find this break in the scope of the visions. They all have it. Once this is realized it provides the basis for the correct understanding of many other truths. Why do this ?

On the one hand it will greatly enhance one's rational understanding and appreciation of the Scriptures. On the other it provides the basis for refuting many false theologies that have developed over the last 2,000 years of which some are very misleading even to the extent of keeping humans from discovering the truth. Many of the legalist based doctrines and liberal theologies are examples. The correct understanding of Bible prophecy can be very effective in closing the door on false doctrine and in turn place individuals on the right track to seek and find the Lord.

I like Skolfield's works and he has very profound understanding about many truths related to Bible prophecy, but I do think he is stretching the scope to support his validation of Islam as the endtime picture of Satan's kingdom on the earth at the time of the end. I don't think it has to be done in the way he does it, and if it turns out to be something different than Islam, that's another problem.

I do think he can correct about Islam and I see numerous and very significant parallels in Scripture (visionary, and non-visionary). I even think that the little horn, king of the north, ("antichrist") may be Islamic and from the Middle East and that Daniel's 4th beast may be an Islamic block of nations that will rise there (if it isn't already in the making). I do not see a revised or revived Roman Empire as many do at all because of my position on the limited scope of the 70 weeks. So I think Ellis may be correct, but for different reasons. I also hold the door open for other possibilities (just a few) because the prophetic visions do not exactly name all of the end time players.

Stephen
[QUOTE]
It is quite clear to me that Jeremiah 30 places the regathering of Israel from the nations before the time of "Jacob's" trouble. Their time of trouble in this context would then have to be in the future 70th week, not at any time before the regathering and possession of the Land of Israel. This is just one example. [END QUOTE]

Where does the Bible say that Jacob's time of trouble has to fall within the 70th week. I see nothing in the 70 week prophecy about "Jacob's time of trouble." What am I missing?

[QUOTE]
The frame work is really quite simple if one applys the 70th weeks of years decreed for Israel with the 69th in the past and the 70th in the future. If you review and study all visionary prophecy contained in the Bible you can find this break in the scope of the visions. They all have it. Once this is realized it provides the basis for the correct understanding of many other truths. Why do this ? [END QUOTE]

You are saying that all visionary prophecy, has a break in the scope of the visions. I have not seen one yet. Please show me one prophecy that mentions a specific time span, like 70 weeks will pass, that has a break in it so that the time span is really much longer than it says. There is no example of that I have seen. There are plenty of examples of the OT prophets combining the first and second coming of Jesus into one "Day of the Lord." but NONE of these ever mention a time span. The two are not the same.
Daniel 7 has a time span of time times and half a time. No hint that this span has a break or gap.
Daniel 8 has a time span of 2300 days. Again no hint of a gap or break, they are continuous.
Daniel 9 has no hint of a gap or break in the 70 weeks. They are given in a continuous form.
I could go on. Revelation has; time times and half time, 1260 days, 42 months, 3 1/2 days. None of thes have a hint of a break or gap.

The 70 weeks is the only time period that anyone breaks up.
True, it is divided into three segments, two weeks, 67 weeks and one week. But this is no basis for puting a gap betwen the segments. There can be no gap between the 2 weeks and the 67 weeks, so why put a gap between 69 and 70? There is nothing in this prophecy that indicates a gap!

So my question is:
Where are all of the apocalyptic visions that have breaks or gaps in their time frames?
Thanks
3am

PS the only gap i am having to deal with now is the gap between the time i click on Add Reply and the time it actually gets posted I realize I am a newbie, but how do you get out of that probationary category and up there with the big guns who dont have to wait?

3am,

"All of the Old Testament, including Daniel 9 is about Jesus.
It is all about Jesus. This prophecy is not about Israel. It is about Jesus. Israel had 70 weeks to receive the Messiah, accept his atonement and put an end to sin, In HIM!!! it is all about HIM!
Sorry if I am overdoing it, but it pains me to see so many take Christ out of the prophecies.
Want to see something beautiful?
Read Daniel 9:24 again and ask, "Who alone can do all of these things"

>Daniel 9:24 clearly states that the 70 weeks of years are for Daniel's people, national Israel. Jesus did not confirm the covenant in 9:27 for only 7 years. The Israelite sacrifice and oblation did not stop after 3 1/2 years, but continued until 70 A.D. It will be the prince that shall come who will confirm the covenant, not with Israel, but with Israel's enemies. This prince will be Satan's agent who will confirm the covenant that the Lord has with national Israel for his followers. He will say that it belongs to them ... and not Israel.

>If we are close to the beginning of the 70th week, this will most likely be claimed for the adherants of Islam. This prince will also prevent national Israel from worship activities at the temple mount when his armies invade and conquer the nation during the 70th week which is yet future. The people of this prince were not the Romans in the first century, but will be his followers at the time of the end, which is still future. (the Roman invasions did not take place until 70 A.D. and were not part of the 69th week or the 70th week)

>I might also suggest to you that the Lord is an Israelite (his humanity is Jewish). He is Israel's Messiah. He will return to them and rule the world from Jerusalem at the end of the 70th week.

>It would be well for you to study O.T. prophecy for understanding the Lord's intentions for national Israel. Here is just on example. [Jeremiah 30:1-11]


Jer 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Jer 30:4 And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck (the prince that shall come), and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make [him] afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I [am] with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished


You also need to read Paul's understanding in the N.T. [Romans 11:1-34]


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Stephen,
A quick reply is, that Jesus, the New Testament writers, Paul included ALWAYS see the Old Testament fulfilled through Christ. He is the focus.
Romans 11 says nothing about a future fulfillment to national Israel. The entire chapter is explaining how Israel is NOW receiving it's fulfillment and Gentiles are grafted into Israel's tree along with beliving Israel. The entire thrust is present, not future.

I have already replied at great length to these questions.
however I am a newbie on the forum
so i understand that i will be on probation for a while and all of my messages
need to be validated. They havent shown up yet.
Please keep looking for it. If it doesnt appear, I can send it again.

this is a little frustrating since people respond to stuff before my response even gets up there.
how long does my probation last and what do i have to do to get off of probation?
I have tried to contact admin people and verification people but my emails always either come back or the web prevents me from even using the chat or email feature.
This one probably wont make it up there for a while. But maybe someone can help me get some answers as to how to make this work better.
thanks
3am

3am,

I see you are posting now. Good deal.

"Romans 11 says nothing about a future fulfillment to national Israel. The entire chapter is explaining how Israel is NOW receiving it's fulfillment and Gentiles are grafted into Israel's tree along with beliving Israel. The entire thrust is present, not future"

Your position here is far from my understanding and I would reply that just the opposite of your statement is true. One would have to make the assumption that some how the Lord (I agree He is the focus in all Bible prophecy .... He is the Author ... the prophets are the recorders) has nullified all future prophecy for His people Israel. The prophecies are vast and would have to be ignored just as you are doing.

I choose to include them and this makes perfect sense to me in the scope of the overall picture that the Bible presents. None of the other approaches (I am aware and have studied them intently) that throw national Israel out fill the bill.

I believe we are at the end of the 69th week. The Rapture will mark the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel; when the countdown for the nation of Israel starts up again. Israel will recognize their Messiah during this last prophetic week of years.

I do believe that the seals and other plagues in Revelation will happen after the Rapture; similar events at a much smaller scale do appear now as to tell us that the bigger signs are coming; like history repeating itself.

The key to the book of Revelation is to understand that what is portrayed there HAS HAPPENED in the past, IS HAPPENING now and WILL HAPPEN during Tribulation. The Bible is already full of types and shadows; each type and each shadow hinting to the final unfolding of God's redemption for man. (Each type and shadow of the same thing/object kind of COMPLETE each/other for our understanding; that's why God wants us to study./read the Bible!

Found an interesting timeline:

Adam ---> Flood = 1656 years
Flood ---> Abraham = 427 years
Abraham ---> Exodus = 430 years
Exodus ---> 1. Temple = 480 years
1. Temple ---> Nebucadnezzar = 406 years
Nebucadnezzar ---> remodeling Temple (2. Temple) = 601 years

TOTAL ......................................4,000 years

+ ? years -------> Rapture -----> end Tribulation = 7 years

At Christ' death. Christ = firsfruits

then early harvest (early rain) or spring harvest: O.T. saints resurrected and taken to Heaven at Christ' death (if we remember, the OT saints wwere resurrected IN SPRING!

then late harvest (latter rain) or fall harvest: NT saints ressurrected at Rapture
(RAPTURE WILL TAKE PLACE DURING F A L L !)

then gleanings (remaining saints) before final plagues at end of Tribulation. (Probably , in that same kind of spirit, in late fall somewhere down the road!

senteami3,

I tend to agree with your grasp of the time line. You also have pointed out some very key indicators that support your view like "the things that are" and "the things that shall be here after". This is the frame work of Revelation and it supports all other related prophetic visions.

3am,

"PS the only gap i am having to deal with now is the gap between the time i click on Add Reply and the time it actually gets posted I realize I am a newbie, but how do you get out of that probationary category and up there with the big guns who dont have to wait?"

This one I can not help you with.

"So my question is:
Where are all of the apocalyptic visions that have breaks or gaps in their time frames? Thanks"

This one I can do. I know where they all are and would be willing to do it if it would be of value to you and to others. This would take some time with explanation so if it is to be done we should agree that it must be done in a positive light and that the discussion will in no way confuse other believers or discredit the Word of God in any way for those unbelievers who may be looking on. This website is a worldwide media.

If by this you mean that I should not feel free to respond with different perhaps conflicting ideas that because it might confuse some, I cannot see any purpose to the dialog. I agree that all conversation should be positive, sweet spirited, no name calling and no condescending comments about personality. But discussion of the Bible done properly with open minds on BOTH SIDES will yield the fruit of truth. That does not mean that no one will feel confused. Truth always seems confusing at first, to one who has be led to believe otherwise. But like nobel Bereans, we should not be afraid to test what we believe with Scripture.

The truth is that I have read volumes of books on prophecy and have been trying for years to get some one to share the passages in apocalyptic visions that contain gaps in the time periods. have yet to have one person show me one. I am anxious to see what you have found.\
3am

I would like to see a discussion of such a subject myself. Heres something to chew on

G_d decrees we rest every seventh day

He also decrees that every seventh year the eart is left fallow to rest

Every set of seven sevens of years he decrees a forgiveness of all debts and a year of rest and glorification of G-d (the Jubilee) 7 * 7 = 49 + 1 yr = 50

We are nearing the end of the 6th millenium since the expulsion of Adam from the Garden do you think thet that millenial kingdom is not a higher level cycle of the pattern G_d has already established in time and that we are near to the Sabat Millneum??



Dave

3am,

I have no problem with your proposal. Actually the "gaps" are not really that, but limitations regarding the scope of the visions (what they contain) themselves which may not include the details of total historical lapse time within the same frame work. This same pattern is evident is all visionary prophecy.

If one detects this unique structure of the visions and applies it correctly over the entire span of all of the visions given, the picture conveyed supports a totally congruent and comprehensive view of the Lord's intent. How would you like to proceed ?

One thing I would indicate to you is this. There is a very low level of tolerance for SDA and similar theology at this post, so if you are coming from that direction then the discussion would serve very little purpose. You could discuss with me through my website address if true. I have no problem with keeping it there.

dday51,

"We are nearing the end of the 6th millennium since the expulsion of Adam from the Garden do you think thet that millenial kingdom is not a higher level cycle of the pattern G_d has already established in time and that we are near to the Sabat Millneum??"

This is still possible, but it is also possible that the last 2,000 years may stretch further. The Lord may tarry longer. No one knows the time of His return.

I throughly understand your point of view. You view the 70 weeks as a sum of the time that God has allocated to Israel, not a continuous time span. I see the phrase "70 weeks are decreed for your people," as a probationary period of continuous time.
What I am saying is that every place in apocalyptic or for that matter, any place where a time period is mentioned, it is always understood as continuous time. For example, when Daniel (ch9) refers to Jeremiah's prophecy that Israel would be captive in Babylon for 70 years it meant 70 continuous years. Not 69 years, then deliverance and then years later one more year. In Dan 7 the time times and half time are understood as continuous time, likewise the 2300 days of Dan 8. Even the first 69 years of the 70 weeks are considered continuous. Now, when we come to the 70th week of that prophecy some want to say that there is a 2000 year gap or span of time between them. I admit that this is by far, thanks to Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHay, the most widely accepted view today. However, popularity does not make something true.
So here is my Question:
I believe every specific span of time in the Bible is contiinuous. You claim that all visionary prophecies have that same discontinuity in the flow of time such as the 70th week beeing separated from the first 69. So I am asking you for one other example of where that takes place. I can do my own exegesis, so if you want to save time and just list the passages that would be fine with me. I could then post any questions I have. Or if you want to explain them online, that woudl be fine too.
in Christ
3am

I wrote:
"All of the Old Testament, including Daniel 9 is about Jesus.
It is all about Jesus. This prophecy is not about Israel. It is about Jesus. Israel had 70 weeks to receive the Messiah, accept his atonement and put an end to sin, In HIM!!! it is all about HIM!
Sorry if I am overdoing it, but it pains me to see so many take Christ out of the prophecies.
Want to see something beautiful?
Read Daniel 9:24 again and ask, "Who alone can do all of these things"

You replied:

>[QUOTE]Daniel 9:24 clearly states that the 70 weeks of years are for Daniel's people, national Israel. [/QUOTE]

When Daniel says that Israel has 70 weeks to make atonement for sin (9:24), I am saying that the cross must be included within the 70 weeks and that Jesus did already make atonement in 31AD and fulfilled that condition. It sounds like you are denying that. Are you saying that the Nation of Israel must herself make atonement for sin after the church is raptured? Please clarify.

In Christ
3am







Daniel 9:24 clearly states that the 70 weeks of years are for Daniel's people, national Israel. Jesus did not confirm the covenant in 9:27 for only 7 years. The Israelite sacrifice and oblation did not stop after 3 1/2 years, but continued until 70 A.D. It will be the prince that shall come who will confirm the covenant, not with Israel, but with Israel's enemies. This prince will be Satan's agent who will confirm the covenant that the Lord has with national Israel for his followers. He will say that it belongs to them ... and not Israel.

>If we are close to the beginning of the 70th week, this will most likely be claimed for the adherants of Islam. This prince will also prevent national Israel from worship activities at the temple mount when his armies invade and conquer the nation during the 70th week which is yet future. The people of this prince were not the Romans in the first century, but will be his followers at the time of the end, which is still future. (the Roman invasions did not take place until 70 A.D. and were not part of the 69th week or the 70th week)

>I might also suggest to you that the Lord is an Israelite (his humanity is Jewish). He is Israel's Messiah. He will return to them and rule the world from Jerusalem at the end of the 70th week.

>It would be well for you to study O.T. prophecy for understanding the Lord's intentions for national Israel. Here is just on example. [Jeremiah 30:1-11]


Jer 30:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,

Jer 30:2 Thus speaketh the LORD God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book.

Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.

Jer 30:4 And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.

Jer 30:5 For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.

Jer 30:6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?

Jer 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Jer 30:8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck (the prince that shall come), and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:

Jer 30:9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.

Jer 30:10 Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make [him] afraid.

Jer 30:11 For I [am] with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished


You also need to read Paul's understanding in the N.T. [Romans 11:1-34]


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, [of] the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to [the image of] Baal.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

Rom 11:9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

Rom 11:10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Rom 11:12 Now if the fall of them [be] the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Rom 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Rom 11:14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation [them which are] my flesh, and might save some of them.

Rom 11:15 For if the casting away of them [be] the reconciling of the world, what [shall] the receiving [of them be], but life from the dead?

Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit [be] holy, the lump [is] also [holy]: and if the root [be] holy, so [are] the branches.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.

Rom 11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Rom 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
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3am,

My response at the >:

I throughly understand your point of view. You view the 70 weeks as a sum of the time that God has allocated to Israel, not a continuous time span. I see the phrase "70 weeks are decreed for your people," as a probationary period of continuous time.

>Sort of. Historical time lapse continues without end, but the visions received by the Bible prophets do not contain all of historical time lapse details. This occurs within specific visions and the over all framework of the set. The absence of historical time lapse details in the visions between the 69th and 70th weeks is structured specifically around the Lord's plan and framework for national Israel, but it also applies to the nations. For example, the 70th week has just as much to do with judgment against the nations as it does for national Israel.

What I am saying is that every place in apocalyptic or for that matter, any place where a time period is mentioned, it is always understood as continuous time.

>I would not say any place, but we are speaking about the "visions" themselves and what they contain. Not necessarily other passages of Scripture. Generally speaking, I would agree that the content of a vision or revealed insight is continuos, however there are some that are not. Example: 2Peter 3:10 The beginning and ending points of a very long period of time are stated, but with no details in between. This pattern is a prevalent characteristic of many of the visions.

For example, when Daniel (ch9) refers to Jeremiah's prophecy that Israel would be captive in Babylon for 70 years it meant 70 continuous years. Not 69 years, then deliverance and then years later one more year.

>Daniel 9 has nothing in "visionary" prophecy of 70 year captivity fortold by Jeremiah other than the fact that Daniel was in the captivity. The 70 weeks of years, given to Daniel by the angel Gabriel, which is the "visionary" part of the chapter places the time frame from the return under later Persian rule to the end of the 69th week (483 years, both visionary and historical), and then the vision picks up on the 70th week (7 years) which is still yet future today. The 70 years of captivity in Babylon is a continuous visionary and historical time frame recorded in Jeremiah's prophecies.

In Dan 7 the time times and half time are understood as continuous time, likewise the 2300 days of Dan 8. Even the first 69 years of the 70 weeks are considered continuous. Now, when we come to the 70th week of that prophecy some want to say that there is a 2000 year gap or span of time between them. I admit that this is by far, thanks to Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHay, the most widely accepted view today. However, popularity does not make something true.

>The time segments of the visions you mention (underlined above) are continuous within themselves. There is no gap in linear historical time for 2,000 years on the earth obviously, but the segments that you mention for the 70th week are part of the visions that have never taken place and are scheduled for the time of the end. The visions of the prophets do not include historical events after the 69th week and which have occured during the last 2,000 years up until this day. All most all do contain visions of the time of the end (70th week) and these are easily identified.

>First of all I do not rely upon Hal Lindsey or Tim Lahay for interpretation of visionary prophecy. Some things they have right ... some things I believe not. I am not swayed by "popular" movements so I would not consider their inconsistancies or popularity as a logical basis for determining what is true or not true with regard to visionary prophecy. I would also say that the "futurist" view is not the most prevalent, but that the historical and partial preterist are more accepted if you consider all of professing Christianity.

So here is my Question:
I believe every specific span of time in the Bible is continuous. You claim that all visionary prophecies have that same discontinuity in the flow of time such as the 70th week beeing separated from the first 69. So I am asking you for one other example of where that takes place. I can do my own exegesis, so if you want to save time and just list the passages that would be fine with me. I could then post any questions I have. Or if you want to explain them online, that woudl be fine too"

>Will do. Daniel 8:8-12. The break is between 8:8 and 8:9. Same related would be 8:22 and 8:23. Other visionary scriptures should be studied for support and I can point them out if you like. This would involve a more extensive investigation.

3am,



Maybe I sure clarify my meaning...A man's picture is worth a thousand of man's words. That wasn't meaning scripture, simply Skolfield's argument, which, (having spoken to him by email) he really strived to compose in accordance with scripture as he understands it. It's always subject to scrutiny by the scriptures, of course, by the brethren.



It is possible, however, that the coming of Messiah the Prince could be marked by Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem on a donkey. I haven't done any math to see if a date could correlate to scripture. I suppose it could also be with his birth.

Interesting note--he didn't come as a "Prince" the first time, did he? He came as the son of a carpenter and servant to all--the Lamb of God, but we don't want to split hairs, now do we? Or do we? I'd have to search scripture for the "Prince" thing, and see if there's confirmation elsewhere...maybe you have a reference?



Bear in mind that the 483 years are Hebrew, 360 day years. This puts the 483 Hebrew years as being equal to (483*360)/365.24 Roman years or 476 years. Take 444 B.C. (Roman years) and add 476 years to it, and one gets 32 A.D. (bingo...well, as Skolfield might say anyway).

The wall of Jerusalem was completed in 444 B.C., according to my Reese Chronological Bible. I suppose Skolfield looks at the beginning of Dan. 9:26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off,..." and figures that what comes before (the last of 9:25) must logically be immediately before the "And after threescore and two weeks..." The last of 9:25 says, "the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." Sure enough, the Nehemiah account shows all the trouble surrounding the building of the wall, which was finished on the 25th day of the month Elul (Neh. 6:15).

If this part holds water, I'm not sure what to do with the first part of 9:25--"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:" UNLESS the 7 weeks are an all-encompassing time period that includes the 62 weeks. Here's where I'm coming from...

Since when in all of recorded number systems have people used "seven and sixty-two" to mean 69. One might say, "sixty and nine," or "seventy less one," but "seven and sixty-two?" What's up with that? (Just throwing that out there.)



Amen. See above.



Technically scripture says, "after sixty and two weeks" I'm just being a stickler for the details. As you said, "Let's stick to the Word..."



Why would the text suddenly use a little "p" for "prince" in the KJV?

26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Now is this "he" talking about Jesus, or the little "p?"

Where else in scripture does the word say that the covenant is with "many?" I thought the covenant was with Abraham, and his "seed", singular, meaning Christ. I'm not sure this is the same blood-bought covenant as Christ sealed with his own blood. Those that abide in