The Falling Away Comes First

After reading the passages below, I have become convinced that many Christians alive during the end times will fall away when the time of persecution/tribulation comes. I hope I am wrong and, but these passages show otherwise. I attribute the belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture as a major contributor to this falling away. One of these days the final treaty will be signed with Israel and then the Pre-Trib people will hopefully recant their belief. If not then they will have to recant after the Antichrist is revealed (when he requires the world to take his mark). If they do not recant then- there will not be another chance. Some who hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture as a tenet of faith will say in that day- this can’t be the final treaty, or this can’t be the mark- because we haven’t been Raptured yet. These key events may not be obvious. 1.The treaty may look like any other. 2. the Antichrist will take over the hidden underground Holy of Holies- not a rebuilt Jewish Temple, and 3. the Mark will be an invisible tattoo and not an implanted computer chip (which can be dug out and removed vs a permanent tattoo in the skin). When the Pre-Trib Rapture does not occur, that belief will have to be recanted. So it is safer to do it now in these calm times- rather than wait and see when it gets hairy. Remember- a Post Trib or Pre- Wrath belief will never have to be recanted.

Please read the following passages- the warning to us is clear.

2 Thes: 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

False Christians

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

False Prophets

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Endure to the End

Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Falling Away When Persecuted

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.


Five Foolish Christians

Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Keep Watching- Orates

Although i agree with your thoughts on pre-tribulation. I do not agree with your thinking on the mark. Yes the chip can be dug out but also a person can cut their skin off to remove the tattoo in the skin.

If the mark is removed or not makes no difference anyway. Because just receiving the mark causes one to be doomed. Removing it will not take away the judgement for receiving it.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Laser's can remove tattoo's also. less invasive than digging out a chip.

In the thread in Prophecy, 1982 Year Of Broken Seals, charlie said this...

"It was revealed to me that the falling away took place with the murder of the first church by the Jews and Romans. The only ones who survived are the Judases' who denied the Lord to save their lives and developed the Gospel of the flesh that the world is in bondage to, to this day. These are the tents that are planted between the seas, which are the peoples tribes and tongues and the glorious holy mountain, which is the kingdom to come. These lies of old include going to heaven, which was never taught by the first church, but rather Christ taught that where he is you will be also. The flesh being spiritually dead didn’t understand that Christ was coming back here to resurrect His dead and change His saints to rule on earth. This also removes the Rapture theory entirely. In the regeneration those who are worthy to obtain it, can not be harmed or die any more. They can move freely in and out of having a physical body and not. They can fly and this is the misunderstanding of going up into the air of earth at Christ’s return to meet Him."

That would spoil your work here. I understand that there was a great faith at the time however. Apparently great persecution brings an anointing among the Lord's followers to persevere and to love not their lives unto death. So I am wondering if there was a falling away then. I read somewhere that there were something on the order of seven million (!!!) martyrs back then. I wonder how strong we who have never faced that level of persecution would fare under it? I suspect it may well invoke that scripture,

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Luk 12:54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
Luk 12:55 And when [ye see] the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
Luk 12:56 [Ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?
Luk 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?
Luk 12:58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, [as thou art] in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.
Luk 12:59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.

I have a question about the whole mark of the beast thing and is it a tatoo or a micro-chip or whatever.

Here's what I see. The bible is many many pages talking about God's will, being righteous, obeying Him, punishment for disobedience, forgiveness for turning away from disobedience and love love love.

So, do we all really beleive that in the end of all that, the whole test and the whole cause of the worst punishment mentioned in the bible will be because of a tatoo or a computer chip?

Are we saying God hates tatoos so deeply that He reserves the worst punishment for that? If so, wouldn't you think the bible would be pages and pages about the dangers of tatoos? Same question for computer chips.

Do you think God would punish you in the worst possible way because you did something He doesn't even mention in all those pages of the bible?

What if the whole thing is about obedience to God? Do you think that might be more likely perhaps? Obedience to Satan is the mark of the beast and obedience to God is the Seal of God maybe? Doesn't that seem more likely?

I'm just suggesting that maybe a little common sense might go a long way here.

I see where you are coming from here but there is to be a mark which delineates who you have decided to obey...whether you take it in ignorance or fear. I say the mark is just that...a sign of allegiance to the devil. We have the seal of God. (Holy Spirit)

Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I notice it says the first reason to take the mark is worship...for the beast and his image...That is what the battle of the heavenlies is all about from beginning to end...Satan wanting to usurp God and to get the worship of man. The reason satan hates man is because God created man to co rule the universe with God and the devil tried to take that for himself, so he hates men as we will get the very thing he (satan)wanted. We have a very wonderful and powerful future!

I'm with you there brother. That future is just so bright, shades won't even do it! My feeble mind just can't comprehend it.

I'm with you about worshipping God or Satan, I think that's the deal. I think you're right about some part of it being visible or discernable somehow, becuase the faithful will be persecuted, denied the ability to buy or sell, then ultimately targeted for death for not worshiping the beast and his mark.

Maybe instead of it being a physical mark, perhaps it's a behavior. Those who do this will worship the beast, and those who refuse to "do this" will be persecuted?

The remarkable thing to me about the mark of the beast is that it's in the hand or forehead. To me this is figurative to mean an action or a thought process. The seal of God however is just in the forehead, so I take this to be symbolic of thought.

I also think those with the seal of God would be very unique, and that everybody else will have quite a bit of emnity towards them for some reason.

Stuff to chew on anyway!!

It’s not just about receiving a tattoo or a chip. It is also about what those who receive the Mark will be doing. Worshiping the image of the beast.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I just think that we should be aware of both scenarios. It could be the joining of the world system without a mark or a physical mark can be added. The important thing is to know that mostly it will be a heart thing. Because who you are is in your heart and God has always been concerned about the heart of man.
Just imagine: They grab you, inject you, you cannot move ....you cannot fight...they give you the mark on your forehead for all to see. What is God going to do......?
He is still looking at your heart and not your forehead.

He is not going to say:"Sorry my boy, I see you have the mark, you cannot enter"

I just think that God and us is always about that deep feeling in the heart and what we REALLY think and are.
They can mark the flesh against your will, but they cannot mark your spirit.

C

Revelation 14

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

C, you bring up a good point. The matter of receiving the mark. Is it forced onto people or is it voluntarily agreed to by the people?

Rev 13:16 states the beast "causeth" all to receive the mark. Sounds to me that "causeth" gives reason by coercion or pursuation to receive the mark otherwise they may not buy or sell without the mark. And none are spared for the verse does say "all"

Maybe money itself is the mark of the beast? You cannot buy or sell anything without money, and everyone craves it, needs it, wants it. It is certainly governed by governments. Many folks I would imagine would shiver at the thought and say "no, it can't be!" because we've all bought and sold with money. If this was actually what Christ had meant then I'd be guilty for receiving the mark, we all would, and I wouldn't have a leg to stand upon but to confess. Kinda makes me a bit scared, I mean who can live without money? Wow, now I really wish to live on every word of God alone!

...you know, Christ not once handled money himself, his disciples did

Just had a light bulb go off (hopefully by the good Spirit of God)

Matthew 22:21
They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

I would imagine then there are those who do both, kinda like serving the two masters thing, but others who would not render anything onto God. Those would likely be the ones to suffer the Lord's wrath?

I shared this on the 666 topic. Thought I would share it here also.

Here is some information to ponder.


LIAR= SHEKER


The gematria of Area (SheKeR) is 600: a (shin) = 300, e (kof) = 100, r (resh) = 200 total of all 600


To whom does rea (sheker) belong? gark (LaRaShA), to satan: k (lamed) = 30, r (resh) = 200, (a ( shin) = 300, g
(ayin) = 70 = 600


Satan is the father of lies.

INTERESTING NOTE:


In Revelations we see the number “666”. The number of man is 6, the number of satan is 6 (drop the 0’s), the number of a liar is 6.“666” is a man incarnated by satan, who is a liar.


_______________________________________________________________

The context of Revelation from which these passages are found discusses the "Beast," and how that Beast will cause many to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads (Rev. 13:16). Before continuing, let's first grasp the meaning of the Greek word charagma (khar-ag-mah), which is here translated as "mark."

The Enhanced Strong's Lexicon (Strong's # 5480) shows that in the Authorized Version (KJV) the Greek word charagma is translated as "mark" eight times and "graven" once. Strong's further defines charagma as:

a stamp, an imprinted mark.
of the mark stamped on the forehead or the right hand as the badge of the followers of the Antichrist [there is a traditional error here that I will shortly describe]
the mark branded upon horses
thing carved, sculpture, graven work.

of idolatrous images.
Interestingly, with one exception, the ONLY place in the New Testament where the Greek word charagma is used is with reference to the "mark" of the Beast!

The New Strong's Dictionary of Hebrew and Greek Words defines charagma as:

charagma, a scratch or etching, i.e. stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue):- graven, mark.
The Theological Dictionary of the New Testament states the following with regard to this Greek word:

charagma [mark, stamp]
Marking is common in antiquity (cf. slaves, and the branding of devotees with the marks of deities).

The Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains gives us crucial insight into the meaning of charagma when it states:

A strictly literal translation of 'the mark of the beast' might imply 'a picture of the beast' or 'a mark made by the beast.' A more satisfactory indication of the relationship between 'mark' and 'beast' would be 'a mark showing one's relationship to the beast' or 'a mark of loyalty to the beast' or 'a mark of the party of the beast.'

Is there a mark of God? If so, what is it?

let's look at other passages of Scripture that seem to be overlooked. As you will see, these passages remove the shroud of mystery.

Within the Torah, which is Genesis through Deuteronomy (Hebrew word Torah means "instruction" or "teaching") we read the following:

Exodus 13:9 (NASB)
9 And it shall serve as a sign to you on your hand, and as a reminder on your forehead, that the law of the Lord may be in your mouth; for with a powerful hand the Lord brought you out of Egypt.
Exodus 13:16 (NRSV)
16 It shall serve as a sign on your hand and as an emblem on your forehead that by strength of hand the Lord brought us out of Egypt.
Deuteronomy 6:8 (NRSV)
8 Bind them as a sign on your hand, fix them as an emblem on your forehead,
Deuteronomy 11:18 (NRSV)
18 You shall put these words of mine in your heart and soul, and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and fix them as an emblem on your forehead.


What is the obvious fact one should notice from these passages? What leaps from the pages as we discuss the issue of the mark of the Beast?

Revelation 13:16 (KJV)
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Almost the exact same phrase is used with respect to a mark - or sign! However, the passages from Torah show the mark to be the mark of God, whereas the passage from Revelation refers to the mark of the Satanic Beast.

Hey C,

You make an excellent point about whether the mark is voluntary or involuntary. I agree no way God condemns someone who has this forced on them.

Because scripture is emphatic that "all" who have the mark are in big trouble, that means it can't be forced on you. The word "cause" to me means rather than being forced, being pursueded or tricked. The words "Cause" and "Force" are different in my mind. Money would sure do that, but we've all had the mark if it's buying or selling.

I think the mark of the beast has to be a symbol of something God hates, like worshiping a false god or perhaps obeying doctrines opposed to God's word. That could get tricky also becuase at some point probably all of us have held a doctrine that was false at some point. I wasn't born with everything correct, and I'm probably still not that way. I'm guessing we all have more to learn.

So what about Daniel and the lion's den? That was about worship. He refused to STOP worshipping God. Daniel's friends in the furnace refused to "Do" something in that they refused to bow down to the statue. So in one example, the faithful refused to do something, and in the other they refused to stop doing something.

I think these are critical illustrations. God is showing us what is going to happen in the stories of Daniel.

Let's face it, you can't "make" anybody worship anything. The definition of worship is that it is voluntary. The Babylonians could have forced Daniel's friends to bow down to the statue, but they didn't, why? It's because worship can't be forced, but must be voluntary and even the Babylonians knew it.

So the mark could be bowing down to a statue. Maybe after you do it, you get a chit or whatever to prove you did it. Then if you have the chit or whatever you can go to the store and buy food.

I really don't know, but I do know this. There has already been a real-world example of a religious doctrine, made into civil law that prohibits buying and selling.

Yes, that's right, it's already happened. We have an example we can see with our own eyes. The cool part is that even though this law has sort of faded away, there still to this day in the USA a remnant of this law that is still in effect.

Here it is. If I wanted to buy a fifth of Vodka today, Sunday 4/2/06 in the state where I live, I can't. First, I don't drink, but that's not the point. At one point in different states in the USA, you couldn't buy or sell anything on Sunday, period.

That's faded away for now, and the law called "Sunday Law or Blue Law" was never made national. So far. The only remnant of that law is the buying or selling of liquor in some states.

What is the basis for this law? Religion!! So, at one point, people couldn't buy or sell BY LAW because of a religious doctrine!

We know that not all religious doctrine is true and of God, so could the doctrine that created the civil law be a false one maybe?

How about this. What if it IS money and the people who came up with the law that says you can't do any buying or selling on Sunday were on to something?? Could that be a good law maybe?? Ok then, so why Sunday??

Sunday is the new christian Sabbath invented by the Emperor Constantine to meld Pagan Rome with Christian Rome. The Sabbath of Jesus is Saturday, the seventh-day. People who observe the seventh-day do not "Buy or Sell" on this day. They do this to put away everything worldly on God's day. No distractions, just God and them on the day God ordains in His Law.

So, the new Sabbath is supposed to be Sunday but the actual one is Saturday. The emperor and the popes "thought to change the times and the Law". For a while in different parts of the USA, no-body was allowed BY LAW to buy or sell on Sunday.

Freaky isn't it?? Is there a connection perhaps?

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”


peace brother
C

Ed rest assure, there is no connection with a Sunday or Saturday. Its going to be bigger than that.
I like the Daniel connection. It shows worship is an issue. The changing of spiritual loyalties. That which satan lusts after...to be like God. He has been drooling for thousands of years at the thought of people worshipping him. But the trick is, he will have to device a way where he will fool people into doing it.
Money is a strong tool (and mentioned..the buying and selling) so it will be something to do with money in its TOTAL form. I think the chip is a strong contender for the mark as you will have to make a choice to take it or not. To not take it would mean you would not be able to buy or sell. You will sell out to the monetary system. "The just shall live by faith" it will be a time again perhaps where we will live from the manna that God will send to His saints in those days.

We will also learn again what it means to share with each other. Today, people does not part with their belongings easily, but when difficult times come, we will see again that the believers hearts (and hands) will be opened and we will share what we have with each other.
love C

Ed rest assure, there is no connection with a Sunday or Saturday. Its going to be bigger than that.
I like the Daniel connection. It shows worship is an issue. The changing of spiritual loyalties. That which satan lusts after...to be like God. He has been drooling for thousands of years at the thought of people worshipping him. But the trick is, he will have to device a way where he will fool people into doing it.
Money is a strong tool (and mentioned..the buying and selling) so it will be something to do with money in its TOTAL form. I think the chip is a strong contender for the mark as you will have to make a choice to take it or not. To not take it would mean you would not be able to buy or sell. You will sell out to the monetary system. "The just shall live by faith" it will be a time again perhaps where we will live from the manna that God will send to His saints in those days.

We will also learn again what it means to share with each other. Today, people does not part with their belongings easily, but when difficult times come, we will see again that the believers hearts (and hands) will be opened and we will share what we have with each other.
love C

Can you come out of something you are not in? What if you were born with the mark of the beast and the number of his name? Could you still come out of it and be forgiven?

Revelations 18
4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.

2 Corinthians 6
17 Therefore "Come out from among them And be separate, says the Lord. Do not touch what is unclean, And I will receive you."
18 "I will be a Father to you, And you shall be My sons and daughters, Says the Lord Almighty."


Charlie

Good points Cornelius. As we can tell, it's difficult to know for sure, but we're doing well I think by applying reason to it. Though nobody's probably going to be abolutely sure, I think we're getting close.

I have to agree it's got to be about worship. I'd like to think that might be settled among most of us anway.

The thing that's bugging me is this. Satan is super subtle and sneaky. I really think that it might not be big as we define it. I just have to think we won't get fooled if it was something big and about worship.

I know I know, how would God be so harsh about something small regarding worship, I see that. It's a puzzle. Maybe it's big to God but it looks small to us? Just thinking out loud here. Maybe there's something big that we're missing?

For the longest time I thought it was the chip, then I tossed the idea because by itself a chip isn't obedience or worship, at least not to me. How about this:

If you bow-down to whatever abomination, you're "rewarded" by receiving a chip that alows you to buy stuff, like groceries. The chip itself isn't the false worship, just an inducement to participate in the false worship?

I just have this idea in my head that in order to get "the whole world" virtually to go along with this thing, it would have to seem to everyone to be something "like" God. A masquerade, or a facsimilie that would fool us. We would have to be thinking all along that we're doing the right thing. I'm thinking that in order for those who refuse to ultimately face death, everybody else would have to go along with it and actually hate the ones who refuse. It's almost like the majority who bow down to Satan will actually be accusing the faithful of Satan worship!!

It wouldn't be the first time in history that happened! Anway, food for thought.

Brother Charlie,

You're right, you can't come out of what you're not in, plus you can't get burned for being born-into something, at least not in my opinion anyway. You have to make a consious choice to do something against the will of our Father, at least that's how I have it in my head.

The rev 18:4 scripture is prophesying that God's people are in her.
Wouldn’t you say you would have to be able to hear when the voice from heaven says, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues?
Then when you hear and you come out of her you will not share in her sins and not receive of her plagues.
But what happens if you can't hear the savior's voice because you believe in a rapture into heaven, instead of a voice from heaven?
Which brings up another question, How and by whom will that voice be delivered? Jonah’s voice was from heaven, John’s voice was from heaven and Christ’s voice was from heaven and all of the Apostle’s voices were from heaven.


Charlie

I'm sure we'll be able to hear. Who knows how it will be delivered, though "angels" in this instance may mean a messenger or messengers. Since they say to "come out" then it must be something that exists at the time of the message. In my opinion it already exists and we're already hearing the message.

It's a false form of religious worship, that defys God's word. It in my opinion has something to do with this system thinking it can "change the times and the laws" and at somepoint this religious system will be able to get governments on their side and pass laws forcing this specific false doctrine about "times and laws".

So, just a few things to check out or ask yourself about if you like;

Has there ever been a religious system that has had control over governments and laws before? If so, who?

If this system exists, have they been able to control governments for a specific period of time maybe? We're pretty sure they don't at the moment, but did they before and if so, for what period of time?

Just for fun, check out what happened in the year 538AD. Then check out what happened during the year 1798AD. Did something happen to a religous system to get it started in 538? Did it get a seemingly mortal blow in 1798 but miraculously recover? How many years between those two dates? 1260 maybe? A time, times and half a time perhaps?

Ok, so if there is such a system that exists and has had this power in the past, is there anything distinquishing about them pertaining to times and laws? God has laws about "times" there's even one in His 10 commandments.

Is there a system that has changed any of the commandments and do just about every organized Christian religion follow after this system?

If this is so, do you want to come-out of it? Could this be the message perhaps? Can you hear the message?

The warning has already been delivered. By the Bible scripture. This is a call to come out of the harlot religions that maqurade as true faith. The Harlot.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If that is all that it is, then I guess the athiests don't have anything to worry about. the plagues will most likely affect everyone who sits at the beasts table reguardless of what they call themselves. Remember the angel told Daniel the beasts are kingdoms and nations. What does come out from among them and be seperate Mean. Check out the walk of Christ and the first church for the answer to that one.




Charlie

Once again the 10 horned beast is a separate empire to the Harlot. The harlot is both false religion and the great nation it controls. Although the false religion that controls this nation is worldwide it has made one particular nation and one particular great city in that nation its centre or capitol if you prefer that terminology.

Coming out of the harlot is coming out of the false religion that some of Gods children are caught up in. But coming out of that physical nation??? I do not think it is a call to come out of that great nation. Because i believe God wants witnesses in that great nation to the very end, even to die in the fire and destruction of that nation. God wants us to share the Gospel everywhere we are until the end.

The beast will destroy the harlot and the great city where she sits; The beast is not about to destroy itself. The harlot rides on the beast because they are so closely linked and are in an alliance but in the end the beast will turn on the harlot and tear her to peaces.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

This is true and this is how it happens. The Harlot is in the beast everywhere on earth. The Man with the Ink Horn is that Voice from heaven saying "come out of her my people". Where could that man with the Ink horn be today?

Ezekiel 9
1 Then He called out in my hearing with a loud voice, saying, "Let those who have charge over the city draw near, each with a deadly weapon in his hand."
2 And suddenly six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his battle-ax in his hand. One man among them was clothed with linen and had a writer's inkhorn at his side. They went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub, where it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed with linen, who had the writer's inkhorn at his side;
4 and the Lord said to him, "Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and cry over all the abominations that are done within it."
5 To the others He said in my hearing, "Go after him through the city and kill; do not let your eye spare, nor have any pity.
6 Utterly slay old and young men, maidens and little children and women; but do not come near anyone on whom is the mark; and begin at My sanctuary." So they began with the elders who were before the temple.
7 Then He said to them, "Defile the temple, and fill the courts with the slain. Go out!" And they went out and killed in the city.
8 So it was, that while they were killing them, I was left alone; and I fell on my face and cried out, and said, "Ah, Lord God! Will You destroy all the remnant of Israel in pouring out Your fury on Jerusalem?"
9 Then He said to me, "The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceedingly great, and the land is full of bloodshed, and the city full of perversity; for they say, 'The Lord has forsaken the land, and the Lord does not see!'
10 And as for Me also, My eye will neither spare, nor will I have pity, but I will recompense their deeds on their own head."
11 Just then, the man clothed with linen, who had the inkhorn at his side, reported back and said, "I have done as You commanded me."



Charlie

Uh, yea. No misinterpreting that.

Imagine a hypothetical situation. The world has just gone through a cataclysmic war, a major plague wiping out a third of the earth and to top it all off, now there is a famine. Now along comes a new leader who promises peace, health and if you get a chip (to stop terrorism) he will grant you a "citizen's dividend" that will enable you to purchase much needed food. Are you going to let your family starve with no place to live? Or are you going to accept the chip and it's built in purchasing power. Another hypothetical situation. If you were required to number your child from birth in order to receive a tax-deduction, would you do it?

What about casting down all vein Imaginations that boast themselves against the Lord and bringing every thought and word to the obedience of Christ. The Lord will strike this planet in it's four streams by His Prophets. No one will strengthen themselves who take part in this world and will not understand that it will perish and not rise again. After these plagues are administered by the Lords two witnesses the Lord will come with His saints and finish it. Then the Kingdom of Christ will be set up here on earth for a thousand years. Two thirds of the population of the planet will perish during this time and God will bring one third throught the fire and test them as Gold is tested.



Charlie