Full Version: Enoch/dead Sea Scrolls
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Here would someone care to explain the book of Enoch and the Dead Sea scrolls without the narrow minded point of view many people share when it comes to religion? Because i personally am fully on the evolution side of things and have a very open mind when it comes to these things. So yea lets have a bit of an argument shall we?
QUOTE(Funky @ Feb 2 2006, 09:46 PM)
Here would someone care to explain the book of Enoch and the Dead Sea scrolls without the narrow minded point of view many people share when it comes to religion? Because i personally am fully on the evolution side of things and have a very open mind when it comes to these things. So yea lets have a bit of an argument shall we?
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I didn't know enoch had a book or scroll or anything
.....but Welcome to the forum!
QUOTE(onetiggerroo @ Feb 3 2006, 05:40 PM)
QUOTE(Funky @ Feb 2 2006, 09:46 PM)
Here would someone care to explain the book of Enoch and the Dead Sea scrolls without the narrow minded point of view many people share when it comes to religion? Because i personally am fully on the evolution side of things and have a very open mind when it comes to these things. So yea lets have a bit of an argument shall we?
[right][snapback]38070[/snapback][/right]
[right][snapback]38070[/snapback][/right]
I didn't know enoch had a book or scroll or anything
.....but Welcome to the forum!
[right][snapback]38229[/snapback][/right]
Aren't we all still evolving ( being changed from one creature to another ) to become another creation in Christ ?
All who accept HIM evolve from being physically beastlike in nature to being created as spiritual creatures in Christ .
with much affection,
Funky,
I am a firm believer in POHECP, the scientific method. It applies to all things. I have used this, and the basic rules of logic in all aspects of my life.
The most important part above, for our case -evolution- is observation. As logically centered persons, let us look at the evidence.
Charles Lyell, the founder of modern geology, proposed that the layers of the earth existed in twelve unique strata, each dated to a specific epoch, which he named, Jurassic, Pleistocene, and etcetera. Then, the fossil people began to date fossils according to where they were found within Lyell's scheme. Then the earth people began to date layers according to the age of fossils within them.
This should offend your logical senses. It does mine. This fallacy of logic is called the "circular fallacy". Fossil dating is based upon stratigraphy and stratigraphy is based upon dated fossils. Both, are based on Lyell's presentation of the layers of the earth and their ages. In the following clips from:
http://people.hofstra.edu/faculty/J_B_Benn.../timescale.html
You can see that Lyell's theories are now disproved. No one has ever, even once, even in 5 and a half mile deep borings, found Lyell's presentation of the relationship of 12 layers.
However, everything that spun off Lyell's theories stands like it is real science.
AN ILLUSTRATION of circular fallacy:
I state that your height, whatever it is, is now named, "one boogey-woogey". Next, I show that a car is 2.5 boogey-woogeys long. Then someone introduces your doppleganger, and I show he/she is 1 boogey-woogey tall, based on a 40% ratio to the car length.
Later, someone corrects me and shows me that you are actually 6 feet tall. properly, I should redefine the car lengths as well.
This has not happened with fossil and stratograph dating. Even carbon dating is based on a linear (primarily) relationship based on a graph using the "millions of years" dating system of Lyell.
So, if you want to correct, and appear intelligent, don't jump on the Lyell bandwagon. Eventually, with all of them, you will be shown to be illogical.
AND THIS IS THE CLINCHER: LYELL STATED IN HIS JOURNAL HE FABRICATED HIS THEORY IN ORDER TO QUASH CHRISTIANS' BELIEF IN A 6000 YEAR EARTH. He did it, he told a contemporary, because he hated Christians and wanted to debunk the Bible. Lyell was an avowed atheist.
"Stratigraphy
Historically, paleontology has found its greatest usefulness in the science of stratigraphy.
What is stratigraphy? Stratigraphy combines the recognition that the earth has a history with the recognition that layers of rock forming the earth's surface can be ordered and placed within that history. This involves both assigning some age of formation to a rock layer (dating) as well as determining which other layers exposed in other places are equivalent in age (correlation). The end result of stratigraphy is a global geological time scale with the relative age and physical relations between all strata of the world known.
Paleontology is vital to the enterprise of stratigraphy because there is nothing temporally unique about the lithology of rock. A Devonian sandstone and a Jurassic sandstone are not distinguishable on the basis of the rock itself.
However, the history of life is a unique sequence of the evolution and extinction of fossil species. Each species is present on the earth for only a single expanse of time and once extinct never returns. Fossils provide the means of distinguishing the Devonian from the Jurassic sandstone. For rocks that cannot be dated using radioisotopes, fossils provide the only reliable means for assigning strata their proper position in geological time.
So important is paleontology to stratigraphy that has often been called the 'handmaid of stratigraphy' to suggest its true usefulness and importance to the rest of geology (if not outright subservience) in working out the succession and age of strata in the rock record.
In a way this is ironic because the practice of stratigraphy as we know it today and our whole modern sense of the history of the earth, including the Geologic Time Scale, was developed from insights gained through the study of fossils.
Early stratigraphers did not adopt paleontology as a useful tool so much as the study of fossils led geologists to a recognition of the existence of stratigraphy!
...
Although Lyell's arguements for a strictly gradual earth history did not survive the test of time, his recognition that fossils could be used to make a chronology on which to hang strata agreed well with the work of his colleagues and his Tertiary timescale remains with us today."
Do all the research you want. The Holy Spirit is raising up my father with this. There are stacks of books and research in his den. I know all about it!
It is bad science.
God knows.
-Robert
I am a firm believer in POHECP, the scientific method. It applies to all things. I have used this, and the basic rules of logic in all aspects of my life.
The most important part above, for our case -evolution- is observation. As logically centered persons, let us look at the evidence.
Charles Lyell, the founder of modern geology, proposed that the layers of the earth existed in twelve unique strata, each dated to a specific epoch, which he named, Jurassic, Pleistocene, and etcetera. Then, the fossil people began to date fossils according to where they were found within Lyell's scheme. Then the earth people began to date layers according to the age of fossils within them.
This should offend your logical senses. It does mine. This fallacy of logic is called the "circular fallacy". Fossil dating is based upon stratigraphy and stratigraphy is based upon dated fossils. Both, are based on Lyell's presentation of the layers of the earth and their ages. In the following clips from:
http://people.hofstra.edu/faculty/J_B_Benn.../timescale.html
You can see that Lyell's theories are now disproved. No one has ever, even once, even in 5 and a half mile deep borings, found Lyell's presentation of the relationship of 12 layers.
However, everything that spun off Lyell's theories stands like it is real science.
AN ILLUSTRATION of circular fallacy:
I state that your height, whatever it is, is now named, "one boogey-woogey". Next, I show that a car is 2.5 boogey-woogeys long. Then someone introduces your doppleganger, and I show he/she is 1 boogey-woogey tall, based on a 40% ratio to the car length.
Later, someone corrects me and shows me that you are actually 6 feet tall. properly, I should redefine the car lengths as well.
This has not happened with fossil and stratograph dating. Even carbon dating is based on a linear (primarily) relationship based on a graph using the "millions of years" dating system of Lyell.
So, if you want to correct, and appear intelligent, don't jump on the Lyell bandwagon. Eventually, with all of them, you will be shown to be illogical.
AND THIS IS THE CLINCHER: LYELL STATED IN HIS JOURNAL HE FABRICATED HIS THEORY IN ORDER TO QUASH CHRISTIANS' BELIEF IN A 6000 YEAR EARTH. He did it, he told a contemporary, because he hated Christians and wanted to debunk the Bible. Lyell was an avowed atheist.
"Stratigraphy
Historically, paleontology has found its greatest usefulness in the science of stratigraphy.
What is stratigraphy? Stratigraphy combines the recognition that the earth has a history with the recognition that layers of rock forming the earth's surface can be ordered and placed within that history. This involves both assigning some age of formation to a rock layer (dating) as well as determining which other layers exposed in other places are equivalent in age (correlation). The end result of stratigraphy is a global geological time scale with the relative age and physical relations between all strata of the world known.
Paleontology is vital to the enterprise of stratigraphy because there is nothing temporally unique about the lithology of rock. A Devonian sandstone and a Jurassic sandstone are not distinguishable on the basis of the rock itself.
However, the history of life is a unique sequence of the evolution and extinction of fossil species. Each species is present on the earth for only a single expanse of time and once extinct never returns. Fossils provide the means of distinguishing the Devonian from the Jurassic sandstone. For rocks that cannot be dated using radioisotopes, fossils provide the only reliable means for assigning strata their proper position in geological time.
So important is paleontology to stratigraphy that has often been called the 'handmaid of stratigraphy' to suggest its true usefulness and importance to the rest of geology (if not outright subservience) in working out the succession and age of strata in the rock record.
In a way this is ironic because the practice of stratigraphy as we know it today and our whole modern sense of the history of the earth, including the Geologic Time Scale, was developed from insights gained through the study of fossils.
Early stratigraphers did not adopt paleontology as a useful tool so much as the study of fossils led geologists to a recognition of the existence of stratigraphy!
...
Although Lyell's arguements for a strictly gradual earth history did not survive the test of time, his recognition that fossils could be used to make a chronology on which to hang strata agreed well with the work of his colleagues and his Tertiary timescale remains with us today."
Do all the research you want. The Holy Spirit is raising up my father with this. There are stacks of books and research in his den. I know all about it!
It is bad science.
God knows.
-Robert
Hey Funky, I don't think anyone has tried to actually answer your question about Enoch yet, so here goes. I don't know why this thread has gotten so off the subject, but the book(s) of Enoch are a non-canonical collection of Jewish religious scriptures well known in the time of Jesus, that ultimately were forbidden by the Catholic Church and all complete copies seemed to vnish from history until rediscovered in the archives of the Ethiopian church, which because of the Moslem invasions were cut off from the Chruch of Rome and therefore continued to use these scriptures. Fragments of Enoch were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls as well, and many scholars believe Enoch influenced some New Testament texts.
Because Enoch was well known to early Christrians, it is an excellent "time capsule" into Judao-Christian religious thought unedited by the church of Rome.
I have personally found Enoch extremely useful in solving various Biblical mysteries because of its Greek texts, in my upcoming book explaining the "dragon-servants" of the Judao Christian God. For example, the Hebrew translation of the word Seraphim, means "fiery flying serpents" or "dragons", which would explain the many references to "dragons" in the Bible, singing praises to God in Psalms and Satan, of course, never a "fallen" humanoid angel, but one of the highest of Heavenly creatures, a Seraphim-dragon.
Despite the evidence, some modern Christians refuse to accept the true translation, and incorrectly give the Seraphim a human form, largely due to the winged human dieties of pagan Greece and Rome which so influence Roman Catholicism. But the ancient book of Enoch in its original Greek text reconfirms the Hebrew scriptures that the Seraphim are indeed winged reptilian creatures, that are simply referred to as "dragons" in many other Biblical scriptures.
But since this thread "evolved" into a discussion about evolution, the Serpahim dragons of the Bible may be evidence of a "long creation" and a compatibility between Christianity and modern scientific theories about the origin of the Earth. In the remarkable Creation Epic of Genesis, exactly like evolution, life on earth originates in the sea, and also like evolution, first there are fish, then the great "Monsters", (dinosaurs), then birds, mammals and finally man. The only disparity is that Christians translate "day" literally, and it could be translated into 6 "epochs" each encompassing millions of years.
So what does this have to to with Seraphim? The Bible describes them as "dragons", and many Christians use this word to also mean "dinosaurs". So if there were actually a "long" creation compatible with the fossil record, perhaps God decided to have his first servant creatures millions of years before mankind would appear on the earth, and chose to give greater intelligence to some prehistoric, winged, dragon-like pterosaur, to be his earliest servants and this is why there are references to intelligent, even talking winged, fire spewing "dragons", not only in the Bible, but in the myths and legends from around the world.
This could also explain Satan's behavior and motives as detailed in other ancient scriptures no longer recognized by the Church of Rome, in which after millions of years as the only intelligent creatures, his race of Seraphim-dragons were told they must now serve the newly created mankind and he refused.
Because Enoch was well known to early Christrians, it is an excellent "time capsule" into Judao-Christian religious thought unedited by the church of Rome.
I have personally found Enoch extremely useful in solving various Biblical mysteries because of its Greek texts, in my upcoming book explaining the "dragon-servants" of the Judao Christian God. For example, the Hebrew translation of the word Seraphim, means "fiery flying serpents" or "dragons", which would explain the many references to "dragons" in the Bible, singing praises to God in Psalms and Satan, of course, never a "fallen" humanoid angel, but one of the highest of Heavenly creatures, a Seraphim-dragon.
Despite the evidence, some modern Christians refuse to accept the true translation, and incorrectly give the Seraphim a human form, largely due to the winged human dieties of pagan Greece and Rome which so influence Roman Catholicism. But the ancient book of Enoch in its original Greek text reconfirms the Hebrew scriptures that the Seraphim are indeed winged reptilian creatures, that are simply referred to as "dragons" in many other Biblical scriptures.
But since this thread "evolved" into a discussion about evolution, the Serpahim dragons of the Bible may be evidence of a "long creation" and a compatibility between Christianity and modern scientific theories about the origin of the Earth. In the remarkable Creation Epic of Genesis, exactly like evolution, life on earth originates in the sea, and also like evolution, first there are fish, then the great "Monsters", (dinosaurs), then birds, mammals and finally man. The only disparity is that Christians translate "day" literally, and it could be translated into 6 "epochs" each encompassing millions of years.
So what does this have to to with Seraphim? The Bible describes them as "dragons", and many Christians use this word to also mean "dinosaurs". So if there were actually a "long" creation compatible with the fossil record, perhaps God decided to have his first servant creatures millions of years before mankind would appear on the earth, and chose to give greater intelligence to some prehistoric, winged, dragon-like pterosaur, to be his earliest servants and this is why there are references to intelligent, even talking winged, fire spewing "dragons", not only in the Bible, but in the myths and legends from around the world.
This could also explain Satan's behavior and motives as detailed in other ancient scriptures no longer recognized by the Church of Rome, in which after millions of years as the only intelligent creatures, his race of Seraphim-dragons were told they must now serve the newly created mankind and he refused.
First, we need to identify who Enoch is.
Gen. 4:17 Cain begat Enoch. Cain built a city and named it Enoch.
Gen. 5:18 Jared begat Enoch. Enoch existed 365 years and 'walked with God and he was not for God took him.' (:24)
So, according to the bible, Enoch was not for God took him. According to Emanuel Swedenborg in his Theological Writings, Enoch was a doctrine of the Most Ancient Church; that might have been the city of Enoch. But notice Cain built the city of Enoch. Cain was given a progressive curse of Adam. Adam was given a surface curse, 'cursed is the ground for thy sake. . . . Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, thou shall eat the herb of the field.' Cain's curse was, 'When thou tillest the ground, it shall not yield unto you her strength. . .' So the first thing to be taken away was the strength that we can get from the earth.
It is interesting that Enoch is from two people. The first was Cain (Gen 4:17). The second Enoch came from the line of Seth who was the replacement of Abel 'whom Cain slew.' (4:25)
Another lesson, a translation of a tongue. Adam was expelled from the garden of Eden. Cain 'went out from the presence of the Lord.' (Gen. 4:16)
Enoch could be defined as the Book of Enoch because when Seth was born in the place of Abel (4:26) 'then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.'
In Enoch 6:1-8, it first says the same thing as Gen. 6:1-2 but adds the commander of the sons of God named Semjaza saying 'Tell me you are not going to do these things because I will be blamed for it.' It goes on to name the sons of God and guess who they are but the prophets of the bible; Daniel and Ezekial among others. And it tells why mankind was destroyed and all of the creatures.
Gen. 4:17 Cain begat Enoch. Cain built a city and named it Enoch.
Gen. 5:18 Jared begat Enoch. Enoch existed 365 years and 'walked with God and he was not for God took him.' (:24)
So, according to the bible, Enoch was not for God took him. According to Emanuel Swedenborg in his Theological Writings, Enoch was a doctrine of the Most Ancient Church; that might have been the city of Enoch. But notice Cain built the city of Enoch. Cain was given a progressive curse of Adam. Adam was given a surface curse, 'cursed is the ground for thy sake. . . . Thorns and thistles shall it bring forth to thee, thou shall eat the herb of the field.' Cain's curse was, 'When thou tillest the ground, it shall not yield unto you her strength. . .' So the first thing to be taken away was the strength that we can get from the earth.
It is interesting that Enoch is from two people. The first was Cain (Gen 4:17). The second Enoch came from the line of Seth who was the replacement of Abel 'whom Cain slew.' (4:25)
Another lesson, a translation of a tongue. Adam was expelled from the garden of Eden. Cain 'went out from the presence of the Lord.' (Gen. 4:16)
Enoch could be defined as the Book of Enoch because when Seth was born in the place of Abel (4:26) 'then began men to call upon the name of the Lord.'
In Enoch 6:1-8, it first says the same thing as Gen. 6:1-2 but adds the commander of the sons of God named Semjaza saying 'Tell me you are not going to do these things because I will be blamed for it.' It goes on to name the sons of God and guess who they are but the prophets of the bible; Daniel and Ezekial among others. And it tells why mankind was destroyed and all of the creatures.
I read the Book of Enoch. I was surprized that it said the angels bound between the Tigris and Euprhates were fallen angels who went after and had children through human women. They want to take their vengence on people because God destroyed all their offspring in the Flood. Their hybrid children consumed all the natural resources, then started turning on people ( as in eating them ) ! Sounds like the state of the world today, where we have exhausted natural resources, and now the nations and peoples turn againist one another.
Ive read enoch and love it. As for enoch himself God seems to reveal to me (not 100% sure) that he was a very forgiving person. Thats what was meant with ''enoch walked with God''.
Not sure...are we still talking about evolution or enoch? I'm a little confused...but here's MHO...I think "all things were here for a time" and then G-d decided to make "modern thinking man...in Adam and Eve"...well, that is just my little theory about dino's! 
Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!??
to you, YSIC hannah 
ALWAYS!!!
Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!??
to you, YSIC hannah ALWAYS!!!
QUOTE(hannah fievel @ Apr 27 2006, 03:02 PM)
Not sure...are we still talking about evolution or enoch? I'm a little confused...but here's MHO...I think "all things were here for a time" and then G-d decided to make "modern thinking man...in Adam and Eve"...well, that is just my little theory about dino's!
Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!?? to you, YSIC hannah ALWAYS!!!
[right][snapback]57427[/snapback][/right]
Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!??
to you, YSIC hannah ALWAYS!!![right][snapback]57427[/snapback][/right]
You know what gets me....SOME PEOPLE think the Book of Enoch is the Word of God. If that is so...then why would God have it in the MAGIC and PROPHECY section at your local bookstore.
See here, it won't let me cut and paste because I don't want to copyright mans' word here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1578632595...j=0#reader-page
See top left hand corner...MAGIC/PROPHECY
Give GOD a little more credit than that! Would GOD want HIS WORD in the magic/prophecy section? Let's dig a little bit further into the Book of Enoch and what is REALLY in it shall we?
I've read parts of it....and it is a good FICTIONAL read. That's about it...it makes a great FICTION BOOK.
Also, I think we should get it straight that it was written by a sect of GNOSTICS. GNOSTICS are a group that set themselves apart from Christians because they believed in mysticism. The Gnostics should not even be considered Christian, only a corrupt version of Christian pretty much like the Mormans, Jehovah's Witnesses, and etc...etc.
Anyone agree here?
You know what gets me....SOME PEOPLE think the Book of Enoch is the Word of God. If that is so...then why would God have it in the MAGIC and PROPHECY section at your local bookstore.
See here, it won't let me cut and paste because I don't want to copyright mans' word here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1578632595...j=0#reader-page
See top left hand corner...MAGIC/PROPHECY
Give GOD a little more credit than that! Would GOD want HIS WORD in the magic/prophecy section? Let's dig a little bit further into the Book of Enoch and what is REALLY in it shall we?
I've read parts of it....and it is a good FICTIONAL read. That's about it...it makes a great FICTION BOOK.
Also, I think we should get it straight that it was written by a sect of GNOSTICS. GNOSTICS are a group that set themselves apart from Christians because they believed in mysticism. The Gnostics should not even be considered Christian, only a corrupt version of Christian pretty much like the Mormans, Jehovah's Witnesses, and etc...etc.
Anyone agree here?
[right][snapback]57487[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
The Book of Enoch has value, that said, its not for everyone which is why its considered a Gnostic text. The Bible is for everyone. Gnostics believed that some people are more aware and that some information is revealed only to a select few.
The Gnostic view is considered Heresy.
The Book of Enoch provides good insight into the Great Flood of Noah. It also may help to sway some Islamic people toward Christianity.
Time will tell.
QUOTE(senteami3 @ Apr 27 2006, 06:04 PM)
...okay, so they didn't have Nike shoes
Great post, though!
QUOTE(Marta @ Apr 27 2006, 05:46 PM)
QUOTE(hannah fievel @ Apr 27 2006, 03:02 PM)
Not sure...are we still talking about evolution or enoch? I'm a little confused...but here's MHO...I think "all things were here for a time" and then G-d decided to make "modern thinking man...in Adam and Eve"...well, that is just my little theory about dino's!
Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!?? to you, YSIC hannah ALWAYS!!!
[right][snapback]57427[/snapback][/right]
Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!??
to you, YSIC hannah ALWAYS!!![right][snapback]57427[/snapback][/right]
You know what gets me....SOME PEOPLE think the Book of Enoch is the Word of God. If that is so...then why would God have it in the MAGIC and PROPHECY section at your local bookstore.
See here, it won't let me cut and paste because I don't want to copyright mans' word here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1578632595...j=0#reader-page
See top left hand corner...MAGIC/PROPHECY
Give GOD a little more credit than that! Would GOD want HIS WORD in the magic/prophecy section? Let's dig a little bit further into the Book of Enoch and what is REALLY in it shall we?
I've read parts of it....and it is a good FICTIONAL read. That's about it...it makes a great FICTION BOOK.
Also, I think we should get it straight that it was written by a sect of GNOSTICS. GNOSTICS are a group that set themselves apart from Christians because they believed in mysticism. The Gnostics should not even be considered Christian, only a corrupt version of Christian pretty much like the Mormans, Jehovah's Witnesses, and etc...etc.
Anyone agree here?
[right][snapback]57487[/snapback][/right]
no i do not agree, trust me, when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke about the church of laodicea and that it was neither hot nor cold, he was talking about this age and absolutely not only about the JW and mormons and gnostics
no i do not agree, trust me, when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke about the church of laodicea and that it was neither hot nor cold, he was talking about this age and absolutely not only about the JW and mormons and gnostics
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Yes sir you sure are right about that...well done Joeri! well done! It's a really good study isnt it?
You should read the original Greek....mindblower!
God Bless
Jeep
Joeri,
You should read the Greek manuscripts...I hope this post goes through, maybe it is locked
You should read the Greek manuscripts...I hope this post goes through, maybe it is locked
[quote=Jeep,May 4 2006, 02:37 PM]
no i do not agree, trust me, when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke about the church of laodicea and that it was neither hot nor cold, he was talking about this age and absolutely not only about the JW and mormons and gnostics
[right][snapback]59525[/snapback][/right]
[/quote]
Yes sir you sure are right about that...well done Joeri! well done! It's a really good study isnt it?
You should read the original Greek....mindblower!
God Bless
Jeep
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The earth is sure gettin' hot and we have pockets of stuff spewing out the vomit from the guts of the earth. We have one in Nevada, in California, Washinton state and we have had the ring of fire, and Hawaii . . . I get sick and tired of ignorant people who say they can read and say they can think and write these stupid ignoramus quotes from god knows who. I don't think God even knows these people, I sure don't. But that is like putting myself equal to God right?? Well, Jesus Christ thought it not robbery to make himself equal to God. Since our faher is named Shem, Ham, or Japheth, we better get used to living in this flesh time and time after time after time until all flesh is gone. If you do not believe this statement I have made, read about the flood and Noah and his sons. Pay particular attention to the ending verses of chapter 8, especially in the middle of verse 21, 'for the imagination of man's heart is evil continually from his youth. . .' This proclamation was made by our Creator because we chose the knowledge of good and evil. But, before the flood, the statement was made, 'Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil . . .' Then we have the flood. Did Noah give us back our life? No. We have been barred from the tree of life. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself because there is no life and no peace. Natural predators abound. But, in the book that so many people are calling the absolute truth came a man named Jesus of Nazareth or Egypt or a hotel in Galilee that had no rooms and he became our life. We can eat of the tree of life now, but this life is not flesh and blood. BURN THAT BOOK! That book called the bible was written about the God of good and evil. The God of Life has written what he wants to say in your heart. And that God of Life is in Jesus Christ.
no i do not agree, trust me, when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke about the church of laodicea and that it was neither hot nor cold, he was talking about this age and absolutely not only about the JW and mormons and gnostics
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Yes sir you sure are right about that...well done Joeri! well done! It's a really good study isnt it?
You should read the original Greek....mindblower!
God Bless
Jeep
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[/quote]
The earth is sure gettin' hot and we have pockets of stuff spewing out the vomit from the guts of the earth. We have one in Nevada, in California, Washinton state and we have had the ring of fire, and Hawaii . . . I get sick and tired of ignorant people who say they can read and say they can think and write these stupid ignoramus quotes from god knows who. I don't think God even knows these people, I sure don't. But that is like putting myself equal to God right?? Well, Jesus Christ thought it not robbery to make himself equal to God. Since our faher is named Shem, Ham, or Japheth, we better get used to living in this flesh time and time after time after time until all flesh is gone. If you do not believe this statement I have made, read about the flood and Noah and his sons. Pay particular attention to the ending verses of chapter 8, especially in the middle of verse 21, 'for the imagination of man's heart is evil continually from his youth. . .' This proclamation was made by our Creator because we chose the knowledge of good and evil. But, before the flood, the statement was made, 'Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil . . .' Then we have the flood. Did Noah give us back our life? No. We have been barred from the tree of life. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself because there is no life and no peace. Natural predators abound. But, in the book that so many people are calling the absolute truth came a man named Jesus of Nazareth or Egypt or a hotel in Galilee that had no rooms and he became our life. We can eat of the tree of life now, but this life is not flesh and blood. BURN THAT BOOK! That book called the bible was written about the God of good and evil. The God of Life has written what he wants to say in your heart. And that God of Life is in Jesus Christ.
[quote=gregg,May 24 2006, 10:43 AM]
[quote=Jeep,May 4 2006, 02:37 PM]
no i do not agree, trust me, when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke about the church of laodicea and that it was neither hot nor cold, he was talking about this age and absolutely not only about the JW and mormons and gnostics
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[/quote]
Yes sir you sure are right about that...well done Joeri! well done! It's a really good study isnt it?
You should read the original Greek....mindblower!
God Bless
Jeep
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[/quote]
The earth is sure gettin' hot and we have pockets of stuff spewing out the vomit from the guts of the earth. We have one in Nevada, in California, Washinton state and we have had the ring of fire, and Hawaii . . . I get sick and tired of ignorant people who say they can read and say they can think and write these stupid ignoramus quotes from god knows who. I don't think God even knows these people, I sure don't. But that is like putting myself equal to God right?? Well, Jesus Christ thought it not robbery to make himself equal to God. Since our faher is named Shem, Ham, or Japheth, we better get used to living in this flesh time and time after time after time until all flesh is gone. If you do not believe this statement I have made, read about the flood and Noah and his sons. Pay particular attention to the ending verses of chapter 8, especially in the middle of verse 21, 'for the imagination of man's heart is evil continually from his youth. . .' This proclamation was made by our Creator because we chose the knowledge of good and evil. But, before the flood, the statement was made, 'Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil . . .' Then we have the flood. Did Noah give us back our life? No. We have been barred from the tree of life. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself because there is no life and no peace. Natural predators abound. But, in the book that so many people are calling the absolute truth came a man named Jesus of Nazareth or Egypt or a hotel in Galilee that had no rooms and he became our life. We can eat of the tree of life now, but this life is not flesh and blood. BURN THAT BOOK! That book called the bible was written about the God of good and evil. The God of Life has written what he wants to say in your heart. And that God of Life is in Jesus Christ.
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lol...foolishness
Jeep
[quote=Jeep,May 4 2006, 02:37 PM]
no i do not agree, trust me, when the Lord Jesus Christ spoke about the church of laodicea and that it was neither hot nor cold, he was talking about this age and absolutely not only about the JW and mormons and gnostics
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[/quote]
Yes sir you sure are right about that...well done Joeri! well done! It's a really good study isnt it?
You should read the original Greek....mindblower!
God Bless
Jeep
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[/quote]
The earth is sure gettin' hot and we have pockets of stuff spewing out the vomit from the guts of the earth. We have one in Nevada, in California, Washinton state and we have had the ring of fire, and Hawaii . . . I get sick and tired of ignorant people who say they can read and say they can think and write these stupid ignoramus quotes from god knows who. I don't think God even knows these people, I sure don't. But that is like putting myself equal to God right?? Well, Jesus Christ thought it not robbery to make himself equal to God. Since our faher is named Shem, Ham, or Japheth, we better get used to living in this flesh time and time after time after time until all flesh is gone. If you do not believe this statement I have made, read about the flood and Noah and his sons. Pay particular attention to the ending verses of chapter 8, especially in the middle of verse 21, 'for the imagination of man's heart is evil continually from his youth. . .' This proclamation was made by our Creator because we chose the knowledge of good and evil. But, before the flood, the statement was made, 'Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil . . .' Then we have the flood. Did Noah give us back our life? No. We have been barred from the tree of life. The only thing we have to fear is fear itself because there is no life and no peace. Natural predators abound. But, in the book that so many people are calling the absolute truth came a man named Jesus of Nazareth or Egypt or a hotel in Galilee that had no rooms and he became our life. We can eat of the tree of life now, but this life is not flesh and blood. BURN THAT BOOK! That book called the bible was written about the God of good and evil. The God of Life has written what he wants to say in your heart. And that God of Life is in Jesus Christ.
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[/quote]
lol...foolishness
Jeep
QUOTE(Jeep @ May 4 2006, 03:49 PM)
Joeri,
You should read the Greek manuscripts...I hope this post goes through, maybe it is locked
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You should read the Greek manuscripts...I hope this post goes through, maybe it is locked
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where can i find them
QUOTE(Joeri(male) @ May 24 2006, 01:43 PM)
QUOTE(Jeep @ May 4 2006, 03:49 PM)
Joeri,
You should read the Greek manuscripts...I hope this post goes through, maybe it is locked
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You should read the Greek manuscripts...I hope this post goes through, maybe it is locked
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where can i find them
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you coulds buy logos, which would accurately translate. Strongs concordance I would shy away from.
I have a copy, of the scriptures by the Institute for scripture reasearch. It is very very good, and put back the true name of the messiah.
Come out of her my people is another great publication which accurately explains, and gives references which defines the nature of Christianity, its mistranslations, and the pagan infusion of it that decieves the masses.
I would just google it, and you will find their site.
Good luck....oh and logos, plan on spending several hundred dollars for this program, albeit it is highly worth it.
Jeep
QUOTE(ABJAH58 @ Feb 5 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE(onetiggerroo @ Feb 3 2006, 05:40 PM)
QUOTE(Funky @ Feb 2 2006, 09:46 PM)
Here would someone care to explain the book of Enoch and the Dead Sea scrolls without the narrow minded point of view many people share when it comes to religion? Because i personally am fully on the evolution side of things and have a very open mind when it comes to these things. So yea lets have a bit of an argument shall we?
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I didn't know enoch had a book or scroll or anything
.....but Welcome to the forum!
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Aren't we all still evolving ( being changed from one creature to another ) to become another creation in Christ ?
All who accept HIM evolve from being physically beastlike in nature to being created as spiritual creatures in Christ .
with much affection,
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2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
Christian do not evolve into this truth. You become that the moment of rebirth.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
We are however constantly being changed from one glory to the next, by the Spirit of the Lord as we look into the "mirror" of the Word and see Christ there looking back at us (Christ in you the hope of glory)...He is the Word(You look into the mirror and see how you are (should be) according to the Word...in other words...you have to believe what you read and say so) and should be in you and on your lips.
2 Corinthians 3:18
And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.
QUOTE(Cornelius @ May 24 2006, 03:05 PM)
QUOTE(ABJAH58 @ Feb 5 2006, 03:20 AM)
QUOTE(onetiggerroo @ Feb 3 2006, 05:40 PM)
QUOTE(Funky @ Feb 2 2006, 09:46 PM)
Here would someone care to explain the book of Enoch and the Dead Sea scrolls without the narrow minded point of view many people share when it comes to religion? Because i personally am fully on the evolution side of things and have a very open mind when it comes to these things. So yea lets have a bit of an argument shall we?
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I didn't know enoch had a book or scroll or anything
.....but Welcome to the forum!
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Lovely.
Aren't we all still evolving ( being changed from one creature to another ) to become another creation in Christ ?
All who accept HIM evolve from being physically beastlike in nature to being created as spiritual creatures in Christ .
with much affection,
[right][snapback]38398[/snapback][/right]
2 Corinthians 5:17Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!
Christian do not evolve into this truth. You become that the moment of rebirth.
Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ [in Him I have shared His crucifixion]; it is no longer I who live, but Christ (the Messiah) lives in me; and the life I now live in the body I live by faith in (by adherence to and reliance on and complete trust in) the Son of God, Who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
We are however constantly being changed from one glory to the next, by the Spirit of the Lord as we look into the "mirror" of the Word and see Christ there looking back at us (Christ in you the hope of glory)...He is the Word(You look into the mirror and see how you are (should be) according to the Word...in other words...you have to believe what you read and say so) and should be in you and on your lips.
2 Corinthians 3:18
And all of us, as with unveiled face, [because we] continued to behold [in the Word of God] as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are constantly being transfigured into His very own image in ever increasing splendor and from one degree of glory to another; [for this comes] from the Lord [Who is] the Spirit.
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Hi,
Lovely, Cornelius. I just backed it out...I have clarification.
Thank you.
Blessings,
Signet
Lovely, Cornelius. I just backed it out...I have clarification.
Thank you.
Blessings,
Signet
QUOTE(Marta @ Apr 27 2006, 04:46 PM)
QUOTE(hannah fievel @ Apr 27 2006, 03:02 PM)
Not sure...are we still talking about evolution or enoch? I'm a little confused...but here's MHO...I think "all things were here for a time" and then G-d decided to make "modern thinking man...in Adam and Eve"...well, that is just my little theory about dino's!
Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!?? to you, YSIC hannah ALWAYS!!!
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Anyway, I think "yes" we are evolving creatures who are evolving into being more Christlike, which I believe was already mentioned. We need to be thinking more "spiritually about everything" than "what we see physically". I think there is so much more going on the spiritual realm, and I think we should be aware of that which includes "evolving" into being "more spiritually minded than carnally minded".
Now, Enoch...I think "he is with the Lord and was just the best and maybe the only man at his time that wasn't consumed by sin, and the Lord took him..physically out of here! And, also to show us...HE CAN DO THAT!!! You know "the great Rapture debates"!!??
to you, YSIC hannah ALWAYS!!![right][snapback]57427[/snapback][/right]
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The New Testament tells us that God, or if you prefer, Jehovah and another being called Life, is invisible, immortal, and the only uncreate being. When Moses asked the God who appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob what his name was, he heard JEHOVAH. Go back to Genesis 3:22-24.
'And the Lord God (the Lord of the family) said,
Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever :
Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden to till the ground from whence he was taken.
So he drove out the man: and he placed at the East of the garden of Eden cherubim, and a flaming sword which turned every way to keep the way of the tree of life.'
The flaming sword rises in the East, the sun, and that sun is the entrance to the way of the tree of life; the guarding cherubim.
Jehovah is the guarding cherubim for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Remember the burning bush. There's that name bush. BUWSH in Hebrew is the idea of shame from defeat; confusion; bewilderment.
First of all, everybody needs to forget about Enoch. Enoch was taken by the creator because he 'was not.' Was he an imagination? You know that the chief Lord of the family of God said, 'For the imagination of man's heart is evil continually from his youth.' That is because evil was part of the food of Eve, who was the mother of all living, gave to the Adam. (Remember logic: 1,2,3 Eve was not woman)
Enoch came from Cain , the firstborn of Eve; Cain was a murderer.
Enoch also came from Jared who came from the line that called on the Lord.
Enoch, the one born from Jared, was taken because he walked with the family of God. The imagination called Enoch was the calling on the name of the Lord. He was taken because evil cannot survive with good.
Adam is the head, Eve is the body. Enoch from Adam is calling on the name of the Lord. Enoch from Eve is killing of the body.
******************************************************************
You know what gets me....SOME PEOPLE think the Book of Enoch is the Word of God. If that is so...then why would God have it in the MAGIC and PROPHECY section at your local bookstore.
*** Wasdn't it Daniel who was in charge of all of the magic, sorcery, incantations, and predictions in the kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar? Why, because the creator is invisible. Jesus Christ said himself, 'Did I not call ye gods?' Why? Because the imagination of man's heart is evil continually from his youth! Why? 'Behold, the man has become as one of us, to know good and evil.' Why? That was the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. (Enoch from Cain was the knowledge of evil. Enoch from Adam was the knowledge of good, so he was taken!) Therefore, ENOCH is not a book. Enoch is knowledge.
The Book of Enoch tells you who gave the knowledge to write, who gave the knowledge to do this and that, and it also tells you the actual knowledge that we have now. Isn't that nice?
*****************************************************************
See here, it won't let me cut and paste because I don't want to copyright mans' word here:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1578632595...j=0#reader-page
See top left hand corner...MAGIC/PROPHECY
Give GOD a little more credit than that! Would GOD want HIS WORD in the magic/prophecy section? Let's dig a little bit further into the Book of Enoch and what is REALLY in it shall we?
I've read parts of it....and it is a good FICTIONAL read. That's about it...it makes a great FICTION BOOK.
Also, I think we should get it straight that it was written by a sect of GNOSTICS. GNOSTICS **** GNOSIS means KNOWLEDGE **** are a group that set themselves apart from Christians because they believed in mysticism. The Gnostics should not even be considered Christian, only a corrupt version of Christian pretty much like the Mormans, Jehovah's Witnesses, and etc...etc.
Anyone agree here?
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Gnostics are the followers of GNOSIS, knowledge.
Yes, knowledge got us killed slowly.
Gregg,
I agree with your evaluation totally.
I agree with your evaluation totally.
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