Do you guys perceive that hyper-calvanism is becoming a problem in the Church? Some one told me recently that there was a wave of this theology coming. Have you guys seen it? What do you think about predistination?

I am not well versed in this arena so I wanted to edit in a link for others who may be in the same situation. Maz.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/arti...rcalvinism.html

Here is my understanding of hyper -calvinism:
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Just a little humor, guys!

Well I'm hyper for our Lord Jesus Christ.
Calvin-oh he was just a man.

Don't let anything creep in your house. Jesus won't creep He is knocking and will walk in if we open the door. No creeping around for our Lord.l

Now the devil what a CREEP

Rosie,

Amen, sister!

Todd

God knows everything!
So I believe He knew who is going to be faithful to Him, who's going to come to Him, who is not going to come to Him at all.

God gave us free will and to make our own choices but I believe He knew all the choices we would make. He is all seeing all powerful our Almighty God.

I am jumping, dancing and praising Him. He is everything to me.

You have shown us scripture verses that prove predestination. I have seen this and thought about this many times.

Welcome to you.
Thanks for joining us here.

prayer from others affect pre-destination of things or people.

im at work but i got notes on that at home. i'll post later.

Q: What did the Presbyterian say when he fell down the stairs?
A: Man, I'm glad that's over with!!!

Calvin may have been a man, i wouldn't be too hard on Calvin... at least he thought about what was being taught to him from the pulpit... (regardless if the predestination school of thought is right or wrong)

People like him wasn't satisfied with such answers as





and not to pick on you Rosie... but an answer like



doesn't really answer anything... especially if its pair with any of the above quotes... I'm sure that's what sparked Calvin (and different schools of thought to search)

If my preacher said: "God knows everything... the bible says so"

What I would hear: "I don't really know... so sit down and shut up"


People want answers, Calvin tried to provide them...

God sees the future and those He foreknew that will choose Him, He also predestined.
God knew about Judas, Judas still had all the opportunities to choose Christ..he walked with Him for three years, but God also knew he would not choose. He was an object of wrath.

Oh don't worry I don't feel picked on.
But I will still say God knows everything and he know what I am going to say
before I do. He knows what I am going to do before I do.

That is amazing isn't it. Know man is ever right all of the time. So I believe
in what God tells me always. His words never lie they always speak truth.

I can tell you something but who knows if it is right. Only God's words are 100%
accurate.

I admire people through our ages but I don't honor them.So I still say Calvin was just a man.

The only answer Calvin could give me to satisfy me is to say look at God's words in the bible. Do not look to my own understanding. Read the book, the holy bible and ask God for wisdom to understand while studying.

Bible-basic instructions before leaving earth
However it isn't just basic it is deep

I didn't just say God knows everything. I said a whole lot more and it probably didn't mean anything. But knowing that God knows it all-why wouldn't we go to our bibles and find out.

Again not to pick on you rosie but...

What if Calvin believed that his message was from God? What if he did seek wisdom from God? Did he come to the predestination theory when he read "God's word"? Do you think he developed his train of thought based on scripture?


So this is what I'm hearing:
1) God knows all...
2) He knows your words and actions prior
3) But you (example Judas) had an opportunity, but God knows you ultimately will not...

So, my question... Why even try?


Come on.. Free willers.... where yall at?

We are all free willers.
Really we all were created with free will, free choice.
He knows everything-therefore He knows what I will do.

I didn't know that I will live for Jesus. I didn't know that
one time in my life. But He did. He guided me, yes probably
through many people. But it is God that I always give the
glory to.

Now saying that does not mean I am never tempted by
the devil, I fall sometimes, I sin,but I repent and
pray that God gives me strength to never be swayed to anything
that is not of Him.

Hope this is making sense. Appygroove you must have been in
the debate club too. I was in high school can you tell.

I am nothing without God. I believe everyday we can make good
choices or bad choices. God stills gives us this freedom everyday.
He just knows before hand what we are going to do.

But if you get rid of self you start only doing the choices God has
set for you. Hope this makes sense.
My life is not my own. I say Lord what will you have me do.

I now see God showing me the choices that He has set for my life.
If we give it up all to Him, He sets our paths. When the devil comes along
you will be upset and want to sit on him. This is what I do often.

I will stumble-I need God always.
Nothing I do on my own works. When He walks with me and talks with me. I am
blessed. Wanting to walk with Jesus and leave the rest.

Great post, Jack. Oh, so true. And who needs answers anyway? Just trust and pray to the Lord, then you won't get in the way of his (predestined) plan for you

HB

Yes we are pre-destined But a very very very important thing is to know how God can do that. The Key is found within the very scriptures you have posted:

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Hyper calvanist have a blind spot for this word foreknew. Foreknew means what is says. God foreknew all of us even before we where born He knew at the foundation of the world the path that each and every one of us would choose and from that foreknowledge He has pre-determined those whom He will conform to the likeness of His Son.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

AppyGroove. I will try to use an analogy:

What if you had a time travelling machine that allowed you to travel into the future. On one of your travels you watch as a friend decided to buy a red car instead of a white one. Now does your knowledge of your friends future decision mean that you have caused your friend to choose the red car? No your friend still has the free will decision to choose what color car he purchased. You having foreknowledge of what color car your friend would buy does not take his future free will choice away from him and put that power in your hands.

Does that help?


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Here's some snippin from something I read a good while back concerning "Free Will"

(written by Michael Bunker)



Arminians assert over and over again that they have a “free will” to decide to do what they want to do. What they don’t understand, is that once they will to do something, it has already been decided. The will is merely the outworking of the decision that was already been made in the heart. It’s not a free will; the will has never been free. Our will is enslaved to the decisions we make in our mind based on whether our mind is corrupt and controlled by the god of this world, by Satan, or whether or not we have a new mind, the mind of Christ and our mind is turned Godward! So the will is merely the outworking, or the result of the decisions made in the heart. So if someone tells you they have a free will. If someone does the silly thing where they say, “Listen, I can drop this (holding any object), or I can not drop it, proving I have a free will.” That is just silly because their propensity to do one action or another is already predetermined by the condition of the heart, what they prefer. Sinners prefer sin. They cannot do what is righteous. It’s impossible for them to do that which is righteous because they’re inclined towards sin and they’re enslaved to the god of this world. Their minds are enslaved, and their will is merely the outworking of their corrupted minds. So the will isn’t really even part of the problem that we are looking at. We get into arguments over the will when the will is really the outworking of the corrupted mind.



“Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.” (Proverbs 4:23)


Throughout the scriptures (the Psalms and Proverbs most particularly), the wisdom of God tells us that the issues of life proceed out of the heart. The scriptures tell us that the heart, which is the mind of man, is where the issues of life come from.



“For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.” (Mark 7:21-23)

Sins (actual sinful actions) FOLLOW evil thoughts and wicked notions in the MIND of men. When an Arminian is arguing that he has the freedom of the will, and we read that all of these wicked things exist in his natural mind (this is the inclination of his mind), how is it possible for him to will other than that which is the natural preference of his wicked heart? It’s impossible. In order for him to will anything else he would have to have righteousness in his heart in order to will that which is righteous. He would have to have a new mind. Why do you think it says in the scripture that part of the regeneration is receiving a new mind (the Mind of Christ)?





It is impossible for the old mind to will that which is good.

So we’ve been arguing all this time about the will, when the will is not really the center of the equation, clearly the mind is. Out of the mind come the issues of life.



“This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.” (Matthew 15:8)



This people have a wicked and fallen heart that is far from God. They cannot be inclined to choose and to will that which is foreign to their very nature. It is the heart and not the “free will” that governs a man. Why do men sin? They sin because they are sinners and because they prefer sin. In order to live a righteous life you would have to prefer righteousness. How is that possible without the activation of God? How could you prefer that which is Godly without God first putting that preference into your mind, into your heart? A sinful heart results in sinful preferences.


“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9)


Arminianism, at its very root, denies the deceitfulness and the wickedness of the human heart. They believe that the unregenerate heart can be inclined towards God, and can believe in God, and can do righteous things when the scripture clearly teaches that the unregenerate heart can only do wickedness because that is its natural preference. So, once again, the will of man has never been free. The will of man has been in bondage to sin until that moment where it becomes regenerated, and after that, it is in bondage to the mind of Christ. The will acts according to the nature and preference of the heart. It wills that which the heart prefers. The will is subject to the motives that are exercised upon it by the mind, by the heart. God never forces the sinner to sin because He doesn’t have to. But neither is the sinner free to will not to sin. In order to will not to sin, the sinner would have to be predisposed to righteousness, and how could he be? His heart is desperately wicked.


And so, how could God hold man responsible for sin if man has no free will?
Well... that's another snippet that could be posted sometime...

ALL Glory to GOD!


~Ish

Adstar wrote...


Don't get me wrong man... I understand the different principles, but to me the idea of predestination gets a little weak in terms of praying to God for intervention...(my prime objective to Calvinism) sorta like HIM removing his impending wrath from a particular city or people-group in OT times...

For us to say,
God knew we would ask for a pardon/extension of 20 years from his doom so he rolled with that..

You have me confused AppyGroove. Could you expand on your thoughts. I do not know what you mean when you say:

"but to me the idea of predestination gets a little weak in terms of praying to God for intervention"

And this:

"(my prime objective to Calvinism)"

Let me ask you this. Do you think i am a calvanist?



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

In a nutshell Adstar...
I think calvinism is weak in terms of instances where God changes his mind...

Do I think you are a calvinitst?
I don't know, are you?

Hmmmm. Did God remove his impending wrath on Nineveh, predetermined on Jonah's free will?

Didn't sound like Jonah had any choice in the matter as God already determined to have Nineveh repent and the Lord spare it, well before God told Jonah to tell Nineveh to repent.

Further, it's no good to argue, well Jonah could have refused to tell Nineveh anything base on his free will. He did refuse! And look what it got him, 3 days in the belly of a fish.

...there is no such thing as free will. Its a lie from Satan. Sorry.

speaking of satan, here's a link with some very thought provoking information.

Why the devil anyway?

http://hellbusters.8m.com/eby/serpent.htm

~Ish

Granted.... but what about Moses and his fears that led to the eventual recruitment of Aaron? and other times when He changed his mind and subsided his impending wrath, etc.?



Did God tell you? Do you have scripture to say its a lie? Please see the bottom of post 8....


IMO,
I believe that God is onimpotent/all knowing/etc... In life we have many roads, many paths, many forks... Note the example message of the prophets:
"IF you do this.... this will happen... But if you do that, that will happen" It goes back to the classical "If you lay down with dogs, you'll wake up with fleas"..... If the Israelites continued to mingle with the foreigners and their gods, they will turn their back on the one true God missing out on the blessings....Yes, God knows are weak hearts... he knew this would happen.. Because they didn't wipe out the foreigners initally, there was an opportunity for mingling, idol worshipping, and the eventual creation of these foreign armies to attack israel...

You don't have to be ominopotent to know that if you play with fire you could get burnt.

Does God Change His Mind?


By Charles Fisher



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


When I first heard the teaching that God lived in time, and changed His mind, I objected, on the grounds that God never changes, that the doctrine of immutability would not allow that. However, as I studied the Bible under the teaching of Dean Harvey (I am an alumni of his Virginia church), I let the Bible show me where my understanding of the doctrine of Immutability was incorrect.

As is no surprise, whenever I discuss the concept of God changing His mind, a dispute arise about whether or not God actually meant it every time He said that He "repented," "He changed His mind," or not. Like me, others argue that God is immutable, unchanging, and that He can't change His mind. A verse that is often cited was Balaam's oracle in Num. 23:19, which says, "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" And yet, when I show a verse (actually 36 of them) where God repents, "changes His mind," in the Old Testament, they deny that this is what happened. I have recently heard one popular bible teacher say that God repents to show that God can't repent.

Instead, they make a big deal about anthropomorphic language, saying that when the Bible says "God changed His mind," it didn't really mean that God changed His mind. They argue that God is using human words to explain something we can't understand because we are human and cannot comprehend with our limited minds what actually happened. I, on the other hand, deny this, calling this appeal to "anthropomorphic language" a theological punt, a giving up in order to save a treasured, but flawed, doctrine.

Yes, there is anthropomorphic language used in the Bible, the use of human attributes to describe God. For example, there are references to God's hands, to His eyes, arms, even feathers (does that mean that the Bible uses aviomorphic language?), but these refer to "body parts." God is a spirit, and does not have hands, arms, and eyes, in the human sense.

But when the Bible speaks of God repenting, changing His mind, it is not speaking about body parts, but the choice of a free moral agent, God. We must accept the idea that the moral choice of God "repenting" has been expressed accurately in the Bible, or we are faced with the dilemma of saying that no moral choice of God is expressed accurately. No one would be able to say, then that the Bible does not mean that God loves the world, but that this is merely anthropomorphic language, as well.

But what about Num. 23:19? How do I explain the apparent denial of God's immutability? In this matter, where scripture talks about God changing His mind, Immutability, God's unchangingness, is , I believe, a red herring. Instead, God has given us direct knowledge about Him changing His mind, repenting.

GOD'S "REPENTANCE" PRINCIPLE
I believe that the first thing that we have to look for, in scripture, when studying any topic, is a direct statement from God about that topic. Not an inference, not a doctrine based on an inference, but a direct statement from God. In this matter, does God say that He never changes His mind, or does He say that He does change His mind? If so, why? Fortunately, God gives us a direct statement about whether or not He repents, about changing His mind.This is in Jer. 18:7+10. Here God tells Jeremiah:

At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

Here is God giving Jeremiah His basic workings, His method of doing things. This statement by God gives us His pronouncements as to whether or not He does change His mind, and on what basis. And it is in keeping with this principle in the character of God that the prophets made their appeals to the nations of Israel and Judah to return to God.

In Jeremiah 26, the prophet shows God pleading with Judah to turn from their evil ways and obey Him. If they do, God will "repent" of the judgment that He is to send them.

If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings. Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.

Joel makes the same plea, in Joel 2:13+14:

And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for he [is] gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil. Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?

It is this willingness to "repent," to change His mind, that Jonah feared. God's willingness to change His mind and forgive those who turn to Him was exactly why Jonah ran away. Jonah 4:2:

And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, [was] not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.

It was because of this facet of God's character that Moses was able to intercede on behalf of disobedient Israel. Ex 32:12:

Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

And in the Song of Moses, his intercession is given, again (Psa. 90:13): Return, O LORD, how long? and let it repent thee concerning thy servants.

A good test of any teaching is to see if the Bible shows God acting in accordance with the teaching. Does the Bible show God "repenting," changing His mind? You be the judge: In direct answer to Moses' prayer: Ex. 32:14 - And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

In the time of the judges, here is a summary of God's dealing with Israel (Judges 2:18);

And when the LORD raised them up judges, then the LORD was with the judge, and delivered them out of the hand of their enemies all the days of the judge: for it repented the LORD because of their groanings by reason of them that oppressed them and vexed them.

When David sinned by conducting a census, and God began to strike the kingdom (II Sam 24:16):

And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite.

The psalmist accounts for God's working in the history of Israel: Psa 106:45 And he remembered for them his covenant, and repented according to the multitude of his mercies.

Another psalm, recounting God's working in the history of Israel: Psa 135:14 For the LORD will judge his people, and he will repent himself concerning his servants.

Jeremiah reminds Judah of God's dealings during the time of Hezekiah (Jer. 26:19):

Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

After the fall of Judah, Jeremiah has received a word from God for those left behind (Jer 42:10):

If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck[you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you.

Hosea tells of God's emotional ties to Israel, and how He desires to repent (Hos. 11:8):

How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.

And Amos tells Israel about how God twice changed His mind and didn't bring a pronounced judgment upon them. He tells them that they may not be so lucky again. Amos 7: 3, 6 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD.

Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Thomas Nelson, 1985), on p. 202, says that here are times when God says that someone has gone to far for Him to repent, and God "had no choice but to implement His judgment." There are five such verses in the Old Testament:


Jer. 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Jer. 15:6 Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.
Ezek. 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.
Hos. 13:14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.
Zech. 8:14 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; As I thought to punish you, when your fathers provoked me to wrath, saith the LORD of hosts, and I repented not:
Do these five verses negate the principle God gives in Jer. 18? No, they demonstrate the negative aspect of that principle. God said that if a nation turned from Him, He would "repent," change His mind about the blessings He planned to send, but bring judgment, instead.

BUT WHAT ABOUT THE CONTRADICTIONS?
I would say, first of all, what contradictions? I do not believe there to be any contradictions, and I do not believe we have to punt to any supposed "anthropological language." Yes, there are verses, to which some people appeal in order to support their flawed doctrine, that say God will not change His mind. But I believe that a thorough study of the Bible, an examination of the context of these verses, will completely demonstrate that there is not any contradiction between the principle that God described in Jeremiah 18.

Instance #1 - Number 23:19

This is the verse that is most often used to say that God is immutable and cannot change His mind.

Here is the verse:

God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

And, yes, it does say that God is not a son of man, that He should repent. But a close examination of the context of the verse will demonstrate that God is not contradicting Jeremiah 18, nor is He making a broad, general statement, as in Jeremiah.

What is the historical context for this verse? Moses is leading Israel through Moab, and Balak tried to get Prophet-For-Hire Balaam to curse Israel for him. God pronounces this oracle through him:

And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the LORD his God [is] with him, and the shout of a king is among them. God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn. Surely [there is] no enchantment against Jacob, neither [is there] any divination against Israel: according to this time it shall be said of Jacob and of Israel, What hath God wrought! Behold, the people shall rise up as a great lion, and lift up himself as a young lion: he shall not lie down until he eat of the prey, and drink the blood of the slain. (Judges 23:18-24 )

Moses is leading Israel to Palestine, in fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, over 400 years before. He promised the patriarchs in His covenant with them that their descendants would take possession of the land. And now, Balak is trying to get an oracle from God to change this. But God, speaking through Balaam, tells Balak that no divination (v.23) is going to change this. God has made a covenant with the nation of Israel, and He is going to fulfill it, now. His mind is made up and He is not going to change.

What we have is a specific promise being referred to, here, and it is a valid rule of scriptural interpretation that specific events do not take the place of God's general principles for dealing with mankind.

This verse does not say that God never changes His mind. It merely says that God is not going to change His mind in this situation, His mind is made up.

Instance #2 - I Sam 15:29

In this situation, Saul has repeatedly disobeyed God, and God has rejected Saul as king of Israel. Samuel tells Saul this message and turns to go, but as he does so, Saul grabs at his cloak, tearing it and pleading for Samuel to appear with him before the nation, so that no one will no that Saul has been rejected. Samuel says:

And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbor of thine, that is better than thou. And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent. (II Sam. 15:28-29)

Is Samuel, in this context, saying that, as a principle, God never changes His mind? No, because we have this in the same chapter:

And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. I(I Sam 15:35)

So what is Samuel saying? That Saul's pleadings are no good, that his tears of repentance will not move God. God has decided beyond any changing of His mind that Saul is no longer king of Israel. Again, we have a specific word that does not override the general principle given in Jeremiah 18.

Instance #3 - Psa. 89:34

My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Psa. 89:34

This one doesn't even say that God will not change His mind, but is often appealed to, to demonstrate that God's Word, once given, is unalterable. God here says that He will not alter His covenant with David. This is a specific promise to a specific individual, and does not override the general statements God made in Jeremiah 18.

Instance #4 - Psa 110:4

Psa 110:4 The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

This one is EASY!!! To whom was this promise made? Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Heb. 6:20 This, again, is a specific promise, not a statement of general principle, so, again, this does not override God's statements in Jeremiah 18.

Instance #5 - Exek. 24:14

In this final instance, Ezekiel is in Babylon, and on a specific date, receives a directive from God. He is to boil a pot of water with meat and bones in it in front of everyone as a visual parable that God is finally bringing judgment on Jerusalem. He tells Ezekiel that the king of Babylon, that very day, in Judah, laid siege to the city of Jerusalem.

In v. 14, Ezekiel writes:

I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

God says He will not repent, that He will not change His mind. But is this a general statement, or specific decision? God is saying that the final judgment and fall of Jerusalem has come about, and that there is no turning back. He will not change His mind about this, but will allow Nebuchadnezar to destroy Jerusalem. Fini. The End. No reprieve. This is not a general statement that God will never change His mind, but a statement about a specific situation.

CONCLUSION
So there you have it. I do not believe that there is a contradiction in the scriptures, and one need not resort to a weak punt to some supposed "anthropological language" to show that God meant what He said, when He said that He changes His mind.

Scripture makes a straight-forward statement, in Jeremiah 18, not couched in "anthropological language," that God does, indeed, change His mind. Scripture also demonstrates that God operates in accordance with this statement. Scripture does not have a contradicting principle to falsify this teaching. On its face, the teaching is valid, and not heretical, since it is in accord with scripture.

I believe that I have demonstrated that God's declaration of His willingness to change His mind, and His actions in accordance with this principle are not in conflict with the statements where God said that He will not change His mind. Rather, in these five instances, God is acting in keeping with this principle, completing His plans and promises.

I believe that if one takes the time to read the scriptures I have given, in context, he/she will see the validity of the teaching.

This page may be copied and distributed freely as long as it is not altered.

from http://www.biblical-theology.com/omniscience/change.htm

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With all the above one can see that the scriptures speak for themselves and that man's will does indeed change due to God's determined will.

Regardless that God does indeed change His mind, man's will is still not free. GOD says, "IF you will... I will, etc.." GOD puts it all out there for man and GOD determines what will happen (i.e. consequences), not man...

Oh how flesh doesn't like not having final say...

such is mankind without being in submission to God


(time to fix lunch and turn on http://www.kaamradio.com/
Listening to the only Legends-nostalgia radio station in Texas -- playing music from 6 decades...)

God not only told me, he showed me.

If I have free will then I give it to God, then I have surrendered my free will for God's will. There is then no free will. The means suits the ends, and there is no free will. But if you believe in free will and your choices are yours and yours alone, then you will suffer the darkness that held Jonah captive in the belly of a fish. The fish is the lie of free will.

If you submit to God and reject your free will the Lord will command the fish to vomit you out onto land, and you will see there is no such thing as free will only that it is a lie that that once held you captive.

...there is no such thing as free will...

No i am not a calvanist but i believe that God knows all the future down to the detail of knowing every humans future decisions and that He has known all this from the foundation of the World.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

First you say that it does not exist.



And then you say you can give what does not exist away to God.




How can you state that something does not exists and then state that this non existant thing can be given away?

Either free will exists or free will does not exist.

Of cource free will exists.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Answer me this, Adstar. If I told you "everything I say is a lie" would you believe me? If you said "yes," you would be calling me a liar, but then your own words would make you a fool, because you'd believe I was telling you the truth.

Then, if you say "no" then how can you tell I am telling the truth?

The Lord is the one who tells and reveals the truth to those who believe. How true then is the Lord's words when he told Thomas

"Because you have seen me you have belief: a blessing will be on those who have belief though they have not seen me!" (John 20:29)

If you do not believe then then you will be shown, otherwise you will suffer the darkness like Jonah did.

Everyone is predestined to go where they go, but that is no excuse. Everyone who sins is in danger of going to hell. So if you can, stop sinning.


Charlie

To understand reality is not the same as to know about outward events. It is to perceive the essential nature of things. The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential. But on the other hand, knowledge of an apparently trivial detail quite often makes it possible to see into the depth of things. And so the wise man will seek to acquire the best possible knowledge about events, but always without becoming dependent upon this knowledge. To recognize the significant in the factual is wisdom.

What does the riddle have to do with the topic in hand? It has nothing to do with the Word Of God.

Yes i believe in Jesus I believe in John 20.29

Will you answer my question now?

How can you give something to God that you previously stated did not exist?

God is not an author of confusion.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

What I am telling you is that I prayed as Jonah and that the Lord commanded the fish to vomit me out of its belly so that I am no longer in darkness.

"Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, 2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. 4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. 5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. 6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God. 7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple. 8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. 9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord." (Jonah 2:1-9)

But what you ask for I cannot show you, Adstar, only God can do that.

well all i say is that the mistakes of the early jewish christians are being made again by the calvanists well if you guys read in the bible the book of acts it tells about how the jews were a lil bit against spreading god's word well they were argueing that wether the gentiles would be circumcized or not cause its because that the jews had this thing before well i you put it that then it would as christianity is only for the jews well if it wasnt for paul to convince the jews that salvation is for all

All right, I am gonna take a crack at this one.

First of all, there is Free Will. Free Will was granted to us by GOD. How can I say that? First, empirical evidence ABOUNDS! Any person you know can pick up a gun, load it, point it to their temple and pull the trigger and kill themselves. They can do it at anytime, for any reason. If someone does that, do we say that GOD willed the person to do it? No! Why? Because GOD does not tell people to go kill themselves! He does not set up circumstances directly or indirectly to encourage a person to end their life. Just doesn't happen. If Adam and Eve did not have free will, they would have only done what the LORD commanded them to do, and the whole tree of the knowledge of good and evil thing would never had happened. Why would Satan try to tempt beings without Free Will?

Second, it is clear that people have free will because JESUS died for them. Why would GOD come in the form of a man, preach the good news, allow himself to be sacrificed and then rise again if all along HE knew that a certain group of people would be making it into eternal life anyway? Did not JESUS, who is GOD - the WORD of GOD in the flesh, the very manifestation of the Father (look it up in John 1) - die to redeem ALL of mankind? He didn't die to redeem SOME of mankind.

According to Rabbi Keith Schneider (a messanic jew), JESUS was crucified on the feast of the Passover, and was buried on the feast of Unleavened Bread, and then raised on the Feast of the First Fruits. The feast of the first fruits is interesting. If you look in Leviticus 23, you will find it. The LORD told Moses that the first sheaf of grain was to be taken to the priest on that day, and presented to the LORD by the priest. The LORD would then accept the grain offering, signifying that the rest of the harvet was acceptable as well. The first sheaf represented the rest of the harvest. If it was good and acceptable, so would the rest of the harvest. So, JESUS, a man, who was the first born of the dead - the first sheaf of the harvest, was presented to the LORD GOD, WHO accepted HIM. Therefore, all of mankind who believes in HIM and willingly places their faith in HIM - who JESUS died for - has been counted worthy and acceptable in GOD'S eyes as well.

What does this mean in terms of the word 'predestinated' (as presented in the KJV)? Strong shows the word to have three meanings in the Greek:

1.) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2.) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3.) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Perhaps Mr. Calvin did not realize this - don't know how he could miss it! - that GOD PREDETERMINED, DECIDED BEFOREHAND that HE would send HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST to die for all mankind and become the first sheaf of the harvest; That the LORD GOD DECREED IT FROM ETERNITY; and that HE FOREORDAINED, APPOINTED BEFOREHAND that all this would happen. Further, the LORD GOD has given every man the ability to accept or reject HIS SON. So, if there is that ability or capacity, then free will does indeed exist. And people may accept or reject the LORDSHIP of CHRIST, it is their decision. How could one be judged fairly if they had nothing to do with the actions they had taken? The animals act upon instinct, but people act upon the motivation of their hearts. I would not judge an animal for something it did because of instinct. But a human being can decided what to do or not because we have a thinking mind that enables us to have free will.

Personally, I like that. It means that GOD gets a team of true believers, not people who are forced into HIS plan and kingdom. True, real, loving adopted believers that are concerned about living for HIM here and throughout eternity.

That is a great plan. I am glad I heeded HIS call, and have been adopted by HIM.

wow

I'm sure glad you took a crack at this-cause brother I think you've got it right on.
Thanks for taking the time to post it.
I personally feel what you feel personally!

I believe God is Jesus Christ and he will save all people...

If you can't dazzle them, baffle them. It's all about Jesus Christ resurrected. Everything else is nonsence and perishable.

Charlie

What does this mean in terms of the word 'predestinated' (as presented in the KJV)? Strong shows the word to have three meanings in the Greek:

1.) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2.) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3.) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Perhaps Mr. Calvin did not realize this - don't know how he could miss it! - that GOD PREDETERMINED, DECIDED BEFOREHAND that HE would send HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST to die for all mankind and become the first sheaf of the harvest; That the LORD GOD DECREED IT FROM ETERNITY; and that HE FOREORDAINED, APPOINTED BEFOREHAND that all this would happen.


scripture says, there are also people who are foreordained to condemnation...

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4)



Further, the LORD GOD has given every man the ability to accept or reject HIS SON.



Are you sure? What scripture do you have to back that up?


So, if there is that ability or capacity, then free will does indeed exist. And people may accept or reject the LORDSHIP of CHRIST, it is their decision.


Mankind ALREADY rejects the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

“As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God; they are all gone out of the way; they are together become unprofitable; there is non that doeth good, no not one; the throat is an open sepluchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asp is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace have they not known; there is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18)



How could one be judged fairly if they had nothing to do with the actions they had taken?


Oh, but man DOES have something to do with the actions he takes. Man is in rebellion against a Holy God. And who is MAN to tell GOD what is FAIR???


The animals act upon instinct, but people act upon the motivation of their hearts.


"motivation of their hearts"???

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:9

What about the conviction of the Holy Spirit?


I would not judge an animal for something it did because of instinct. But a human being can decided what to do or not because we have a thinking mind that enables us to have free will.


No such thing as free will... that thinking mind we have is sooooo small and God is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much bigger than our small minds. Do we not NEED the MIND OF CHRIST???



Personally, I like that. It means that GOD gets a team of true believers, not people who are forced into HIS plan and kingdom. True, real, loving adopted believers that are concerned about living for HIM here and throughout eternity.


That "sounds" all well and dandy but know that GOD WILL BE GLORIFIED. Regardless if we understand how or why, HE WILL judge every human being. EVERY KNEE (Christian or not) SHALL BOW. HE created us and HE can do whatever HE wants to with us. Who are WE to tell GOD HE cannot judge man for something (SIN, REBELLION AGAINST GOD) that comes natural to man? Even though GOD Himself created natural man. Or do you not believe God "created" natural man??? God is THE CREATOR...

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:21-23


That is a great plan. I am glad I heeded HIS call, and have been adopted by HIM.



Exactly... HIS call

It's ALL His call...

BTW, I don't think being FORCED (as you mentioned) into GOD'S PLAN AND KINGDOM would be a bad deal. Know why????

BECAUSE GOD IS GOOD!!!!


Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

[QUOTE]

What does this mean in terms of the word 'predestinated' (as presented in the KJV)? Strong shows the word to have three meanings in the Greek:

1.) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2.) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3.) to foreordain, appoint beforehand

Perhaps Mr. Calvin did not realize this - don't know how he could miss it! - that GOD PREDETERMINED, DECIDED BEFOREHAND that HE would send HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST to die for all mankind and become the first sheaf of the harvest; That the LORD GOD DECREED IT FROM ETERNITY; and that HE FOREORDAINED, APPOINTED BEFOREHAND that all this would happen.


scripture says, there are also people who are foreordained to condemnation...

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4)



Further, the LORD GOD has given every man the ability to accept or reject HIS SON.



Are you sure? What scripture do you have to back that up?


So, if there is that ability or capacity, then free will does indeed exist. And people may accept or reject the LORDSHIP of CHRIST, it is their decision.


Mankind ALREADY rejects the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

“As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God; they are all gone out of the way; they are together become unprofitable; there is non that doeth good, no not one; the throat is an open sepluchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asp is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace have they not known; there is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18)



How could one be judged fairly if they had nothing to do with the actions they had taken?


Oh, but man DOES have something to do with the actions he takes. Man is in rebellion against a Holy God. And who is MAN to tell GOD what is FAIR???


The animals act upon instinct, but people act upon the motivation of their hearts.


"motivation of their hearts"???

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:9

What about the conviction of the Holy Spirit?


I would not judge an animal for something it did because of instinct. But a human being can decided what to do or not because we have a thinking mind that enables us to have free will.


No such thing as free will... that thinking mind we have is sooooo small and God is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much bigger than our small minds. Do we not NEED the MIND OF CHRIST???



Personally, I like that. It means that GOD gets a team of true believers, not people who are forced into HIS plan and kingdom. True, real, loving adopted believers that are concerned about living for HIM here and throughout eternity.


That "sounds" all well and dandy but know that GOD WILL BE GLORIFIED. Regardless if we understand how or why, HE WILL judge every human being. EVERY KNEE (Christian or not) SHALL BOW. HE created us and HE can do whatever HE wants to with us. Who are WE to tell GOD HE cannot judge man for something (SIN, REBELLION AGAINST GOD) that comes natural to man? Even though GOD Himself created natural man. Or do you not believe God "created" natural man??? God is THE CREATOR...

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:21-23


That is a great plan. I am glad I heeded HIS call, and have been adopted by HIM.



Exactly... HIS call

It's ALL His call...

BTW, I don't think being FORCED (as you mentioned) into GOD'S PLAN AND KINGDOM would be a bad deal. Know why????

BECAUSE GOD IS GOOD!!!!
[/QUOTE]



Hi Ish...here is my reply...

[QUOTE]scripture says, there are also people who are foreordained to condemnation...

“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:4)
[/QUOTE]

The word you depend on for your argument is 'ordained' in the sentence 'who were before of old ordained to this condemnation' . The word ordained, according to Strong is:

Prographo (prog-raf'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 4270

1.) to write before (of time)
a.of old set forth or designated before hand (in the scriptures of the OT)
2.) to depict or portray openly
a. to write before the eyes of all who can read
b. to depict, portray, paint, before the eyes

This verse talks about the Libertines, who taught that due to the grace of GOD, the sinner could do anything they wanted. Libertines denied the importance of personal holiness. Jude is writing about those people here who gave themselves up to believing a lie that Satan was peddling. The Libertines did this of free will - they heard the message and chose to believe it. They personally denied the LORDSHIP of CHRIST through their own actions. The ordained part refers to the Libertine practice of doing what ever they felt like doing thinking that they would be receiving grace anyway. This was a teaching straight from satan himself, who was bringing a variety of false doctrines into the Church at that time. The people who subscribed to those teachings were already fooled and condemned because they were denying the LORDSHIP of CHRIST, which satan has done ever since he was cast down from Heaven. It is an old practice of satan's that the Libertines were following - thus, they were 'before of old ordained to this condemnation'.

[QUOTE]
Further, the LORD GOD has given every man the ability to accept or reject HIS SON.



Are you sure? What scripture do you have to back that up?
[/QUOTE]

How often do you read the word? The scriptures to back it up is lengthy. Here are a few though:

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Titus 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
Titus 3:10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
Titus 3:11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Lu 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?

Lu 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Lu 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Lu 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Okay, answer this question then - if JESUS says a man can reject him and not receive HIS words; if a man can subvert himself and sin and can be condemned of himself; if JESUS, the cornerstone can be rejected; if a man can deny himself and take up his cross and choose to lose his life for JESUS' sake - how is that not free will?

Are you looking for a scripture that teaches free will?

How about this:

Psalms 54:6 I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O LORD; for it is good.

Strongs shows us that the hebrew word for freely is defined as follows:

Nedabah (ned-aw-baw'); Noun Feminine, Strong #: 5071

1. voluntariness, free-will offering
a. voluntariness
b. freewill, voluntary, offering

How does one voluntarily offer a free-will offering if one does not have free will? In fact, since the hebrew word for freely is Nedabah, and it is a noun, it denotes that the PERSON does this of their own accord - they WILLFULLY do it. Their very person embodies the act of voluntariness. How is that not a willfull act?

But wait - there is more:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

What does the Greek word for 'will' mean in the verse quoted above? Again, we turn to the trusty Strongs Concordance to find out:

Thelo (thel'-o);
Word Origin: Greek, Verb, Strong #: 2309


1. to will, have in mind, intend
a. to be resolved or determined, to purpose
b. to desire, to wish
c. to love
1. to like to do a thing, be fond of doing
d. to take delight in, have pleasure

So, the hebrew word for 'freely' and the Greek word for 'will' seem to indicate the same thing - a person (a volunteer) who resolves or determines to do something.

Hmmm....seems like free will to me. I think I backed that up with scripture.

[QUOTE]
So, if there is that ability or capacity, then free will does indeed exist. And people may accept or reject the LORDSHIP of CHRIST, it is their decision.


Mankind ALREADY rejects the Lordship of Jesus Christ. [/QUOTE]

Yes, mankind does. You use the following verses to try to prove your point:

[QUOTE]“As it is written, there is none righteous, no not one; there is none that understandeth; there is none that seeketh after God; they are all gone out of the way; they are together become unprofitable; there is non that doeth good, no not one; the throat is an open sepluchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asp is under their lips; whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; their feet are swift to shed blood; destruction and misery are in their ways; and the way of peace have they not known; there is no fear of God before their eyes.” (Romans 3:10-18)
[/QUOTE]

The verses you use are out of context. Romans 3: 1-18 tell the entire story and are contextual. Paul is talking about the depravity of man - no matter Jew or Gentile - that exists. The Jew had no advantage in his relationship with GOD because of the Law. The Gentile without the law had no advantage either. From all this Paul infers that it is in vain to look for justification by the works of the law, and that it is to be had only by faith. Faith is an act of will, however:

Ps 31:23 O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.

in the verse above what does faithful mean in the hebrew?

'aman (aw-man'); Verb, Strong #: 539

1. to support, confirm, be faithful
a. (Qal)
1. to support, confirm, be faithful, uphold, nourish
1a
b. foster-father (subst.) 1a
c. foster-mother, nurse 1a
d. pillars, supporters of the door
e. (Niphal)
1. to be established, be faithful, be carried, make firm 1b
f. to be carried by a nurse 1b
g. made firm, sure, lasting 1b
h. confirmed, established, sure 1b
i. verified, confirmed 1b
j. reliable, faithful, trusty
k. (Hiphil)
1, to stand firm, to trust, to be certain, to believe in 1c
l. stand firm 1c
m. trust, believe

all of these definitions tell us that an action is occurring (the word is a verb). To have faith, one must do something to demonstrate it. Being faithful to one's spouse for instance is done through the demonstration of love. Being faithful to the LORD requires trust in HIM, obedience to HIM and belief in JESUS as the SAVIOR. These are actions of will. To call them something else is simply to ignore the obvious.

[QUOTE]
How could one be judged fairly if they had nothing to do with the actions they had taken?


Oh, but man DOES have something to do with the actions he takes. Man is in rebellion against a Holy God. And who is MAN to tell GOD what is FAIR???
[/QUOTE]

Once again your logic falls to pieces. How did man come into rebellion against the HOLY GOD? Through disobedience! Mankind - Adam and Eve - deliberately disobeyed the LORD GOD'S command to not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If they did not posess a free will, how would they have made the decision to disobey GOD in the first place? To decide that the serpent was right, and that the fruit looked good and pleasing to the eye, and that they wanted to be like GOD and have their eyes opened? Did Adam and Eve have a corrupt will before they were tempted by the serpent? No, they were perfect creations. Did they have a corrupt will while they were being tempted? No. But as Paul wrote in Romans 6:23 -

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James chimes in:
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

So Adam and Eve allowed lust to be conceived, which brought forth sin, and sin brought forth death. It was their disobedience that caused it to happen. Disobedience to GOD'S instructions could only have come from the ability to exercise their own will - free will to make their own decisions.

[QUOTE]
The animals act upon instinct, but people act upon the motivation of their hearts.


"motivation of their hearts"???

The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
Jer 17:9

What about the conviction of the Holy Spirit? [/QUOTE]

The motivation of one's heart is caused by the actions of one's mind or beliefs. Here is a scripture to back that up:

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

What does the hebrew word for 'heart' mean in this passage?

Leb (labe); Noun Masculine, Strong #: 3820

1. inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding
a. inner part, midst
1. midst (of things)
2. heart (of man)
3. soul, heart (of man)
4. mind, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory
5. inclination, resolution, determination (of will)
6. conscience
7. heart (of moral character)
8. as seat of appetites
9. as seat of emotions and passions 1a
2. as seat of courage

So the heart is the seat of emotions, passions, inclination, resolution, determination, and the center of understanding for mankind. To have a heart, one must have a will.

When you ask

[QUOTE]What about the conviction of the Holy Spirit?[/QUOTE]

You have inserted another argument that is non-contextual. The intention of the statement I made was to show that animals can not help what they do - they are driven by instinct. People are not - they can devise ways, they can determine courses of action based on available options, etc. The HOLY SPIRIT did not enter into the argument. So what about it?

[QUOTE]

I would not judge an animal for something it did because of instinct. But a human being can decided what to do or not because we have a thinking mind that enables us to have free will.


No such thing as free will... that thinking mind we have is sooooo small and God is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much bigger than our small minds. Do we not NEED the MIND OF CHRIST???
[/QUOTE]

You have made a HUGE leap. How do you go from animals with instincts and humans with thinking minds to say there is no such thing as free will? Yes, our minds are small compared to GOD'S, but what does the size of our brains have to do with free will? Yes, we need the mind of CHRIST as well. But nevertheless the LORD JESUS did give us a brain to reason and think with. But is that some reason to not glorify HIM for giving us the brains we have? Do you deny the glory due to the CREATOR OF ALL THINGS because we have brains that are smaller than HIS but are still wonderfully and fearfully made? Let's review that wonderful Psalm from David:

Ps 139:14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.

Ps 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Ps 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

Ps 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Ps 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee.

Seems to me you have a problem giving GOD the glory for HIS creation.

[QUOTE]

Personally, I like that. It means that GOD gets a team of true believers, not people who are forced into HIS plan and kingdom. True, real, loving adopted believers that are concerned about living for HIM here and throughout eternity.


That "sounds" all well and dandy but know that GOD WILL BE GLORIFIED. Regardless if we understand how or why, HE WILL judge every human being. EVERY KNEE (Christian or not) SHALL BOW. HE created us and HE can do whatever HE wants to with us. Who are WE to tell GOD HE cannot judge man for something (SIN, REBELLION AGAINST GOD) that comes natural to man? Even though GOD Himself created natural man. Or do you not believe God "created" natural man??? God is THE CREATOR...

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:21-23
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Yeah, and your point is? I "know" that all will be judged by GOD. I don't think YOU get it. I never said that I was telling GOD how to judge. My statement comes from the fact that GOD is HOLY and JUST. Your statement questioning if I believe that GOD created natural man is laughable. However, you seem to have forgotten that GOD created man first as a perfect creation. That is where your Calvanist non-free will beliefs all fall down. You seem to think that GOD created man as an imperfect creature from the very beginning! You forget about the temptation of Adam and Eve in the garden. You forget that it was the man and woman who decided to eat of the forbidden tree. Your disregard for that simple fact is what causes confusion for many. That is why Calvanism is flawed and should be disregarded. But believe what you want to believe. It is your choice after all to do that - your free will exercise.


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That is a great plan. I am glad I heeded HIS call, and have been adopted by HIM.



Exactly... HIS call

It's ALL His call...

BTW, I don't think being FORCED (as you mentioned) into GOD'S PLAN AND KINGDOM would be a bad deal. Know why????

BECAUSE GOD IS GOOD!!!!
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Glad we agree on something.

I believe in JESUS CHRIST and HIM CRUCIFIED, RISEN and EXALTED at the RIGHT HAND OF THE FATHER. I am not hung up on some Calvanist belief that you seem to be strung up on because I believe - look, free will! - that teachings such as Calvanism are designed to confuse people and make the love of many wax cold. Keep your eyes on JESUS CHRIST, friend, and on HIM alone.

2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

Hyper calvanisim declares this verse a lie. But it is true. God did not make people who had no chance to be saved. God did not create people to burn in hell. God foreknew but He did not force people to reject His Word.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

AGREED

Yes, yes...

God did not create people to burn in hell.

God did not create any people to burn in hell.

People will not burn in hell, any people, and all people.

Catholics, Calvanists, Baptists, Protestant, Morman, Jewish, Budist, Jehoviah Witness, and many more.

Heh, this just popped into my mind. People are like memory hard drives. God is going to disk wipe every one and re format them in HIS image, if they are any of the type mentioned above, but he doesn't throw the hard disk away! That's one way to get rid of those pesky viruses!

Is'nt it good then that the believer in Christ is like the hard drive that gets tweeking and not disk wiped?

Again, the truth from the word of GOD rings out loud and clear! Thanks, Adstar.


Ishtob edited later to add the following verses to defend the hyper-calvanism philosophy in another post:

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?

Once again, Ishtob, you take verses out of context! You have to read the verses listed above within Roman 9:6-21. That set of verses talks about Paul's concern for the country of Israel and the Jews rejection of the messiah. Further, he is saying that the Jews reliance on being under the Law and being the children of Abraham is not enough to guarantee eternal life and does not confer GOD'S favor on them any longer. In fact, Paul has said that that favor has moved from the Jews to the Gentiles who become Christians through faith. Paul is writing that GOD is saying that HE will bestow favor on whomever HE wishes, with no regard to what others say or think (Verses 15 and 16) or prior arrangement or covenant. HE does not answer to anyone. In fact, Paul seems to be saying GOD justifies HIMSELF - pretty much does what HE wants. So if FAITH in CHRIST is the test of acceptance, and no longer the Law, that is GOD'S business not ours. HE can pick one over the other, and no one can say otherwise.


Here is the whole set of scripture:

Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Ro 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Ro 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Ro 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Ro 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

Ro 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)

Ro 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

Ro 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Ro 9:14 What shall we say then Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ro 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ro 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Ro 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault ? For who hath resisted his will?

Ro 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Ro 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Please use scripture within context. It is very important.

On Free Will and Predestination:

God has given us free will out of His love. He wanted us to be able to choose to love Him, so He'd know we really do. He didn't make us a bunch of robots, cause where's the love in that?

(Sorry for the image, but...) You don't love your wife by locking her in a cell and tell her to keep quiet, do you? You love her by letting her do what she will, forewarning her and teaching her of things she should and should not do, knowing that there's always a chance she'll do something wrong, trip and fall, but helping her up out of LOVE when she does and forgiving her when you know she's learned her lesson. That is how God loves us.

God knows everything, even the smallest detail (even exactly how many germs you just sneezed out ). He knows exactly what'll happen to you, the outcomes of your free will choices, what your ultimate end will be. That goes for everyone and everything.

But for certain people He has predestinated them, He uses their free will to do it. He steers them into situations, to certain people and places, certain faiths, etc., knowing what they'll do and how it will affect them in order to bring them to their destiny. He guides their life like a targeted missile, sometimes without them even realising it.

A good example of God puting one's own free will to use in His work:

Around two weeks ago I was hanging out with my friends, Sam-I-El (Talina) and I were at another person's house. Talina left for home, seeming a little unhappy, while I stayed there for a while longer. I was forced to leave later, due to my friend's parents' time restrictions, and so I left, feeling a little unsatisfied with the day. So I decided to go to Talina's home and hang out with her. Turns out, she had prayed, after she had went home, that God would do something to make her day a little better, to cheer her up because she was feeling sad. Then along came me. The answer to her prayers .

So God Himself had actually guided and set that whole day up just so that could happen. He influenced all our free wills to cause it.

God is amazing like that, like in the year 6 AD He'll say to Himself:

"Hmm...in two thousand years, Tony Hernandez will pray for a girl friend. I'll give him one, I'll set it up so a girl that's perfect for him will be born right around when he is. So these two people need to have this child, and these two, and then their children need to have this child...." So on and so forth. Really sit back and think about it for a second, How much did God have to do just to bring that one person into your life, or have a certain event happen, or have you see that one thing just to answer your prayers? It's really mind blowing...

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I wouldn't say He predamns people though...He just knows that the ultimate outcome of their choices will be damnation.