Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,

-2 Thessalonians 2:3


I heard something interesting the other day and looked it up. The word apostasy
is thought to have another possible interpretation.

If it is interpreted that way the scripture would read:

Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the departure comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction

To see article on translation go here;


http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=165

I believe this is right on track. In fact I always believed the church would go through the trib. Only in the past few months have I changed my mind. I have read and reread thessalonians and one can plainly see, Paul is trying to comfort those christians by laying out future events to them. I never knew anything about the possible wrong translation of the word (he apostasia). But what caught my attention was verse 2:1 Now I beseech you, brethren by the coming of our lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him that you not soon be shaken. It sounds like Paul is saying. Hey everyone let me clear up somethings here concerning the coming of the Lord and our gathering together to him. This is how things are going to line up. First the rapture, then the day of the Lord. Anyway I believe after a study of these two books, one can only conclude that the rapture is for sure before the man of sin and the day of the Lord. The proof is there. I have studied the Bible for 26 years and only was able to see this truth in the past year. I believe it was meant to be hidden until this time.

Matthew 25 :
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: 33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink? 38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me. 41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

if you want to know when the rapture happens, look at when teh resurrection of the dead is.. Scripture has PLENTY of proofs regarding this undisputed subject. When we get to the raptuer, and our egoes wanting to save our own skins, we go blind for some reason....

The rapture happens on the last day, immediately following the resurrection of the dead.... The purpose of the raptuer is not to save your butts from some type of tribulation, the purpose is that the graves have been emptied and the time of the eternal judgement is at hand... So if you happen to live at the time of the day of resurection, (when NO MORE PEOPLE WILL DIE, death will be thrown in the lake of fire, then you are raptured, gathered together with those who are already resurrected

If the rapteur was to save your butts from tribulation, then there wold be NO REASON, NONE< for the greaves to first bew opened, they are already dead anyway.....

The blessed hjope thruout the ENTIURE new testament was NOT the raptuer, (pretribvbers make it such), it ws the resurrection and still is... That is the hope of all generaltions of christians....

Chrsit comes for a COMPLETE bride, not an uncomplete bride.. HE went to prepare a place for us, he comes back, END OF STORY.. it is simple, nothing to add to this but leavening.. When he comes back, we all receive our rewards... This is not a bar and Chrsit is not the bartender who calls out, lsat call... Ther is no last call with a thief who comes all of a sudden, and destruction happens at a time they did not expect....



the passage in thesselonians refers to the time when the wicked one is revealed.... Who is the wicked one? It is the spirit of satan in antichrist... The revealing happens around the time of the second coming.. The revealing of the wicked one is to the world, NO, it's not when an antichrist does a peace traty, that is still unawares, it is still under his spell.. the revealing happens when all become very much aware of the evil this man is and the horror in the faces of many who realize who is behind him....

Pretribbers contradict so much bible but more than anything, they contradict Christ's own prayer that they not be taken ot of this world, but protected frokm the evil one while in this world....

When does Chrsit come back? According to parable, once he has found that last lost sheep, (he went ot to find the last one, leaving the 99), it's when the last prodigal son makes it home.. THEN the feast and the fatted cow....

Chrsit comes in judgement, bring rewards for the good and the bad...


there is no whisking away a split second before because the purpose for resurrection , complete resurrection f those dead in Chrsit must first occur...

Then we who are alive and remain...

CArmine

apologies for the typos... i was in a rush at the time and typed too fast and didn't check for typos....

Carmine

Reply: I suggest you read the scriptures and not be ready to believe the idiots that must twist the bible into a tangled mess in order to make it fit the doctrine you believe so strongly. I have read most of your posts and disagree with your interpretation on most everything. I taught the false pre-trib doctrine for thirty years but could not prove it by the scriptures as written. For the past twenty years I have been studying and teaching the prewrath doctrine because it is the only one that fits all end time prophecies.

Hi ohappyday: Did it not catch your attention in verse 2:1 who Paul is directly addressing? Notice he is speaking directly to those first-century saints who were going through terrible TRIBULATION and persecution. THEY are the audience and THEY are the ones directly affected by Paul's words. He was exhorting THEM not to be soon shaken. Furthermore, whose gathering together is Paul talking about? He says "our gathering together"--He and his fellow first-century saints. That is the context.

THEY were not to be deceived. Some were claiming that the Day of Christ had come (e.g. His coming in judgment) because things were so bad. But that day was not to happen until AD 70. Things were going to get much worse because the man of sin had not yet been revealed. Note also, that THEY, Paul and his fellow believers, KNEW who or what was restraining even THEN. The "great apostasy" took place in that first-century setting. It is not for our day.

There is no need for doom and gloom--looking for the world to grow worse and worse and for the Church to lose its way. Jesus is building His Church and the gates of hell such not prevail against it. We are on the winning team. There is no coming antichrist (although there is still present the spirit of antichrist) and great tribulation. It is behind us and was never for us.

By the Church's abdication of this hope and positive outlook, we have turned this world over to the ungodly and then we wonder why things are so bad. We let atheists and agnostics kick God out of our schools. We let wicked people in our Congress and our Supreme Court allow unborn babies to be butchered. We permit our schools to teach without much objection that we are all products of evolution.

So many in the Church wrongly expect the world to become more and more wicked until Christ's comes to take them away. Unfortunately, it has become the self-fulfillment of its own prophecies. In other words, by their expectation of doom and gloom, they have withdrawn and have now actually caused or premitted some of the things they expected to happen!

Preterist


To all: Could we deal with the context of these passages please? What did 2 Thes. 2 mean to those original hearers who were being thrown to the lions, being crucified and having their heads cut off? I would love to do a study around audience relevancy--something that seems to be so lacking today. Everything that is read pertains directly to US without any consideration for the original hearers. The entire NT is metaphorically dripping with the expectations on the part of THOSE saints going through horrible, unspeakable tortures and trials that Christ would come to THEM, to rescue THEM, to avenge THEIR blood against the enemies of God.

Preterist

With Meekness and Kindness brother. "Idiots" I too have a similar story as you, but we Must be careful how we get our point across. How do you think people will listen if we address them so harshly. I love you, and agree with your doctrine but not your approach. Try not to crush your listeners so hard with that Hammer.



With Much Love

Your Friend in Christ,

Val



Messiahiscoming

Hammer said:

"Reply: I suggest you read the scriptures and not be ready to believe the idiots that must twist the bible into a tangled mess in order to make it fit the doctrine you believe so strongly. I have read most of your posts and disagree with your interpretation on most everything. I taught the false pre-trib doctrine for thirty years but could not prove it by the scriptures as written. For the past twenty years I have been studying and teaching the prewrath doctrine because it is the only one that fits all end time prophecies"

>You have some very good and correct insight, but you need to re-visit the timing of the Lord's "harpazo". Dig deeper and find the Church in heaven during the period of the Lord's hour of trial (judgment of an unbelieving world) in Revelation. If you do this you will have a different perspective and this will lead you to a better understanding.

>On an added note "apostacy" defines human intransigence against the Lord and includes all forms of unbelief, and not just the same of some religious organizations professing Christianity. Neither is the "falling away" definition a description of the Lord's "harpazo". No relationship here. Some of the "pre-tribbers" as Hammer defines them are not correct when using this to support their position. And it is not needed. Much more is available and Scriptural for determining the timing sequence.

>I would also suggest that you evaluate your "pre-wrath" sequencing of events. This is not the only approach for understanding the events of Revelation and in my opinion falls a little short of the correct picture. Close .... but not exact. It is ok to hold your position, but you may want to make some adjustment.

[color=#000066]Miki,
I know that God always wants us to keep all scripture in its context that we may fully undertand what He is
telling us.
That being said, the proper context of that verse is:
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin[b] is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God[c] in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

First, its clear that some were indeed troubled that maybe the coming of Christ had already occurred and they had missed it. Paul then says in v.2 Let no one deceive you because, that day will not come unless
FIRST[b] there is a "falling away". So then he is making it clear that something else will happen first which is the falling away. It just would not make any sense if that first something were the same thing as the thing that followed. It would be like me saying "First Im going to wake up in the morning
and then Im going to wake up. Do you see that this is redundant and makes no sense.?

So the only clear meaning that I think can be understood is that they are both totally seperate events and could not be the same.

In Christ's Love
Chris

Sorry Miki but these people are twisting words.. "apostasia" does not mean "the departure" ! It is in the feminine case and means "defection from the truth". Something that this site is doing to prove their doctrine. The neuter meaning in the Greek is "apostasion" which means a seperation as in a "writ of divorcement." What they are doing is twisting it from the root. This word is "aphistemi". What this site fails to tell you is the meaning of the neuter of "apostasion" which was primarily used in the meaning of "divorcement" and instead simply REPLACE it with "aphistemi" and applied this meaning which is not "apostasia" or "apostasion".

Here is the meaning of it in Greek:

646. apostasia ap-os-tas-ee'-ah feminine of the same as 647; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy"):--falling away, forsake.

647. apostasion ap-os-tas'-ee-on neuter of a (presumed) adjective from a derivative of 868; properly, something separative, i.e. (specially) divorce:--(writing of) divorcement.

868. aphistemi af-is'-tay-mee from 575 and 2476; to remove, i.e. (actively) instigate to revolt; usually (reflexively) to desist, desert, etc.:--depart, draw (fall) away, refrain, withdraw self.

If "departure" was meant in this verse it would have been directly written in the Greek as "aphistemi" and not an adjective of it which is "apostasia" in the feminine meaning "departing from the truth" or "divorcing the truth".

Here is Greek correspondences for this verse:

2Th 2:3 Let 1818 0 no 3361 man 5100 deceive 1818 you 5209 by 2596 any 3367 means 5158: for 3754 [that day shall not come], except 3362 there come 2064 a falling away 646 first 4412, and 2532 that man 444 of sin 266 be revealed 601 , the son 5207 of perdition 684;

Here is how it can be written to mean with the word "apostasia":

2 Thess 2:3

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come except there come an apostasy(defection , divorcement, refrainig, departing, desisting, removing, seperating, withdrawal, forsaking, revolting or rebellion-from the TRUTH) first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.


Emphasis in parantheses

Really sad when people stoop to this level to prove doctrine. We all believe that Jesus is Coming back soon... except preterists. There is no reason to lie and twist things.

Chris said:

"First there is a "falling away". So then he is making it clear that something else will happen first which is the falling away. It just would not make any sense if that first something were the same thing as the thing that followed. It would be like me saying "First Im going to wake up in the morning and then Im going to wake up. Do you see that this is redundant and makes no sense.? So the only clear meaning that I think can be understood is that they are both totally seperate events and could not be the same."

>This is good logic and correct in my opinion.

Gee wiz...I didn't say l ascribed to it. I said l read something interesting the other day and put it out there for others to comment on. I'm not an expert or even a novice on Greek or Hebrew translations and thought someone with more knowledge than myself might like to comment.

Thanks for all your 'intelligent' response.

Hammer my flesh wants to speak so l will reply to sweet Val instead. Don't worry honey...I'm not "crushed."

"Sorry Miki but these people are twisting words.. "apostasia" does not mean "the departure""

See what I wrote was more direcetd to the site not that you were twistig words.... the people that put this site up were. It was not meant to be directed at you personally but at the site that was replacing "apostasy" with "the departure." Miki you can look up the Greek or Hebrew meanings of different words found in scripture by using a concordance. Most use strongs and it is pretty reliable. You can find this online its easy to use. So you can check things out for yourself you do not need to be an expert in Greek or Hebrew to do this. If that was the case I'd fail miserably---LOL The only language that I do know if I remember it half the time(other than English) is Latin and at times I can read some French.

http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html

Greetings Val:
Thank you for your advice. I need someone to set me straight when I get a little too angry. I just don't understand people that calls themselves christians but will cling to a false doctrine at any cost. How any one can shift the seals, trumpets and bowls around out of order without thinking they are taking away from the prophecy of the book is beyond me. I guess they think that Christ made a mistake when he dictated what John was to write.
I love you too and pray for you and your family to have a safe wonderful life in Christ.

Greetings MIki:
Forgive me for my unchristian tact.
The Apostasy primarilly has to do with the Jews turning from Moses and the law to the antichrist when he enters the temple and sets himself up as god. They give their country over to him and those who refuse to give in to him are told by the scriptures to flee to the wilderness.
There is a general falling away by the christians in the world from all the pressures against the church. England has just about choked the fundimentalist churches out and America isn't far behind.
There are multimillionairs writing books of fiction and calling saying that they are true to the bible and a lot of people read those books and adopt what the books are teaching. The Left Behind books and movies are the most evident of a man becoming filthy rich by a false doctrine.

Apostacy and intransigence against the Lord are the same thing and should be understood to be applied to an entire world of unbelieving humans for many different reasons ... and not to just some of the "professing" Church.

Ok Hammer!

Okay everyone I may be one of those Idots spoken of here but I have a defence. 33 years of being a Christian, have read the bible so many times I can quote it, have studied Bible Prophecy all that time. Upwards of 8 to 15 hours a day devouring the word of God. Now to the good part. I have found that the more I study, the more I see I need to learn. Knowledge only leads me back to the fact that there is so much more I don't know.

My question is this, how can people be so sure that what we know is factual. Can all not be wrong, has God came to us personally and said thus saith the Lord. Are we not all learning, would any of us stake our lives on what we think we know.

The church has been going around the same mulberry bush for so long they don't realize if the truth was dancing before them they would be to blind to see. We are to busy arguing with ourselves. I don't know if there is going to be a rapture, are the answer to any of the hundreds of questions pondered by us today but one thing I do know and that is none of us know anything for sure. Opinions is all we have here and now you have mine.

There is many on this board that I personally think have been led by the spirit into a deeper understanding of the events of Rev. Its like a door has been cracked and we all can peek inside. I will continue to enjoy their insight.

The folks who wrote the Amplified Bible have a footnote to this effect...(possible interpretation of "departure") quasi agreement of the possibility...Maybe the falling away has been accomplished...If sincerity is a measure of truth, many have fallen short. We are viewed as the Laodicean church age. Many are sincerely wrong about much. You have to have all the pieces of the puzzle to get the right picture....right now I have 666 out of a thousand...enough to be dangerous...trouble is you can't take the box back for a new one...once you have opened the box and removed the seals you have then learned a few things and if they be potentially shown to be wrong, it gets muddled with other things and the final state is worse than the first. I wish I could start over in the study of eschatology...I see often how "everyone" has an opinion on how to base an interpretation and I see always how "everyone" is right. People who declare they know the score go beyond demonstrative. 1Co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching [was] not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 1Co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

But we have to also know that there is only going to be one event. Perhaps at days end, and last blast of trumpet we shall see clearly and perhaps it may be "what was all the fuss and argument about?" The finality of those days will be as stedfast as those of "so damn insane.." And we will all be very aware of the course we have taken. I do not think the issues and events of end times are salvation issues, but they would speak to a survivial of the flesh in the interim, and we have it on good authority that the flesh profits nothing. Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

May I boldly say...

Phi 1:19 For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,
Phi 1:20 According to my earnest expectation and [my] hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but [that] with all boldness, as always, [so] now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether [it be] by life, or by death. Phi 1:21 For to me to live [is] Christ, and to die [is] gain.

Miki I think you are one of the most honest people on this web sight. I for one pray that you do not let anyone sucker you into believeing something that isn't true. I have said this several times but I will say it again. Read prophecy just like it is written and you can't go wrong. 2 tess.2:2-5 clearly states that the church will not be raptured before the antichrist enters the temple at the mid-point of the seventieth week.
Also the seventieth week is determined by God himself to run a full seven years. So what is cut short by the coming of Christ.
Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
Christ tells us what is cut short and that is "those days" are cut short by the rapture. The world will be saying peace and safety, but those that refuse to bow to the antichrist will be suffering great tribulation. I get all the above from reading just what the bible tells us and I do not add or take away anything from what is written.

God bless you MiKi and I believe that if you keep your interest in prophecy the Holy Spirit will lead you to all understanding.
I get very upset when I show sombody something that is straight out of the bible and they argue with the bible because they are so stuck in some set idea that they have been taught. You admit that you have a things to learn and that is the right attitude. I am an old great grandfather and I still learn things from the bible, and will continue to learn until I pass away or raptured. Ps I gave one of my granddaughters that picture of the little girl in the garden and she put it on her wall.

Ok Hammer... Glad your granddaughter likes the picture.

See.... l feel the same way.
Something so clear even a truck driver's daughter can understand it.
He's preaching to me.

God puts me in his barn before he starts burning what's left in the fields.
Any good farmer knows how that's done.

God put the animals in the Ark...again...his barn.

Just as in the days of Noah. It's so clear (head shaking )

QUOTE(HAMMER @ Dec 31 2006, 10:55 PM) [snapback]97353[/snapback]

[b/]

I, too, get upset when spirit-led believers refuse to thoroughly consider the CONTEXT of a passage and the AUDIENCE RELEVANCY. We are creating a generation of Jack "the Ripper" Van Impes who become experts at ripping passages out of their context in order to make them say what they want them to say. Do not believers as you admit "argue with the Bible" when they refuse to see time statements in their normal, everyday, common, usual usage in order to sustain "some set idea that they have been taught?"

Consider:

The Kingdom of Heaven is AT HAND. (Matt. 3:2)
Who warned you (Pharisees and Sadducees) to flee from the wrath ABOUT TO COME? (Matt. 3:7)
The Son of Man is ABOUT TO COME in the glory of His Father WITH HIS ANGELS. (Matt. 16:27)
There are some of those who are standing HERE who shall not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man
COMING in His Kingdom (Matt. 16:28)
THESE are the days of vengeance in order that ALL THINGS which are written may be fulfilled. (Lk. 21:22)
The God of peace will SOON crush Satan under YOUR feet. (Rom. 16:20
There is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. (Acts 24:15)
The COMING of the Lord is AT hand (James 5:8).

I know I have taken these out of context (but I have studied them in context). If you have some objection to how I am using them, I welcome your input. But they say what they say. Will you let them say what they say?

In Christ, Preterist

Preterist, have you failed to look at what exactly the church is?

I would suggest a thorough study of how the dates of Israels rebirth as a nation coincide with the rules of Leviticus and a look at the times and fulness of the gentiles (2 different issues) as well as a good study of Revelation 1-5, Joshua, Ephesians and Matthew 13. The Preterist line of thinking lacks much to look forward to

Enoch was raptured before the flood of Noah.
Lot was saved before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Rahab was saved before the battle at Jericho.

Over 300 prophecies were fulfilled at Christ's 1st coming and may help in your study of deciphering the next, of which there are over 1800, I believe.

In Christ,
dburrows

QUOTE(dburrows @ Jan 2 2007, 03:44 PM) [snapback]97567[/snapback]

[/b]

dburrows: Yes, there are many verses which prophesy of Christ's second coming:

"YOU (my disciples standing right here in front of Me) shall not finish going through the cities of Israel
until the Son of Man COMES" (Matthew 10:23).
"The Son of Man is ABOUT TO COME in the glory of His Father with His angels; and will recompense
every man according to his deeds" (Matthew 16:27).
"There are some of those who are standing HERE (right now in front of ME) who shall not taste death
until THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28).
"From now on YOU (Caiaphas, the chief priests, the scribes, the elders, the whole Sanhedrin) shall see
the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN"
(Matthew 26:64).
"If I want him to remain until I COME what is that to you" (John 21:22)?
"The Lord is near" (Phil. 4:5).
"For yet a very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not delay" (Heb. 13:14)
"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8).
"The end of all things is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7).
"I am coming quickly" (Rev. 3:11; 22:12, 20).

He said He was coming back soon to those first-century, pre-AD 70 saints, and He did!

Yes, I know what the church is. It is the body of Christ made up of those born-again from above on the basis of the New Covenant in His blood. The New Covenant made the first one old--the old covenant was in THAT day (pre-AD 70) in the process of becoming OBSOLETE and growing old and vanishing away (Heb. 8).
The New Covenant was promised in Jeremiah 31:31ff--it was to be a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah--a covenant not like the one God made with their forefathers, which THEY broke. God would write His laws on their hearts and in their minds. He was would be their God and they would be His people--forever. He would never cease doing good to them (and be extension all believing Gentiles as well). When the temple and the city were destroyed in AD70, the Church, the true Israel of God, emerged as His people (made up of believing Jews AND Gentiles). The Church is made up of all those who are circumcised in their hearts and not in their flesh. There is One people of God and One people only--the Church, in whom all the promises of the old covenant types were fulfilled.

In Christ, Preterist

Amplified Bible
Matthew 10;23
you will not have gone through all the towns of israel before THE SON OF MAN COMES


daniel 9;25
from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem until [THE COMING OF] THE ANOINTED ONE, A PRINCE, shall be seven weeks [of years], and sixty-two weeks [of years]; (483 years)


as per Dave Hunt, the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem was Nisan 1, 445 BC.
Add 483 years (360 days per year), and you come to Nisan 10, 32AD (April 2, 32AD)

We know that Jesus rode the foal of the donkey into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday.
And, the Crucifixicion was Thursday (not Good Friday).
3 days and 3 nights later , was Resurrection Sunday morning at dawn.
And, the Crucifixicion was Nisan 14, Thursday, AND JESUS DIED ON THE SAME AFTERNOON THAT THE PASSOVER LAMBS WERE SLAIN.

Sir Robert Anderson (author of THE COMING PRINCE) asked the calendar experts at the Royal Observatory in Greenwich, England, "Which day of the week was Nisan 14, 32AD?" Their answer was Thursday, April 6 , 32AD.


My point is :
Jesus "came" (Matt 10;23) to Jerusalem as "a prince" in fulfillment of Daniel 9;25, before the 12 disciples had time to go thru all the towns of Israel (they had only a few months or years to go thru all the towns of Israel).

That "coming" was fulfilled in the "Palm Sunday". The First Advent.

The Second Coming is Imminent. Today, perhaps.

QUOTE(dennis mann @ Jan 4 2007, 06:44 AM) [snapback]97760[/snapback]

Yes, they had only years to go through the towns of Israel--and that's what they did:

Colossians 1:5, 6". . . the word of truth of the gospel, which has come to YOU, as it HAS in ALL the world."
Colossians ". . . the hope of the gospel which YOU heard, which WAS PREACHED to EVERY creature under heaven."

"The COMING of the Lord is NEAR" (James 5:8)--near to THEM.
"The end of ALL things is at hand" (1 Peter 4:7)--at hand to THEM.

The Lord's coming WAS imminent!

Preterist

Revelations was the last book to be written. About 95 AD.
In the last chapter, the Scripture says "Yes, Come Lord Jesus!"
rev 22;20
amplified bible

So, in 95 AD, the Scripture (or John, or the Holy Spirit) is calling to Jesus, "Come!"
He hadn't come yet (in the Second Coming).

QUOTE(dennis mann @ Jan 4 2007, 10:55 AM) [snapback]97779[/snapback]

Revelations was the last book to be written. About 95 AD.
In the last chapter, the Scripture says "Yes, Come Lord Jesus!"
rev 22;20
amplified bible

So, in 95 AD, the Scripture (or John, or the Holy Spirit) is calling to Jesus, "Come!"
He hadn't come yet (in the Second Coming).

Actually, the Book of Revelation was written pre-AD 70 so when the Scriptures say "Come Lord Jesus," it was very appropriate. Jesus Himself said "Behold, I am coming quickly!"

So even if you take the incorrect date of AD 95, what do you do with the time references that clearly state that He was coming soon to THAT generation? And please don't redefine simple words. They mean what they mean. You use those words that way every day and mean that in the most common everyday sense.

"The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8).
"The end of ALL THINGS is AT HAND" (1 Peter 4:7).

What do those words mean?

Furthermore, on the topic of this thread, what is the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Paul is writing to the saints at Thessalonica. They are going through terrible persecutions from Rome and from the Jewish leadership. Paul is addressing HIS brethren of his day--

". . . concerning the COMING of our Lord Jesus Christ and OUR (Paul and his fellow first-century saints) gathering together to Him." Notice that Paul does not correct them concerning their expectation of Jesus' return as though they should not even have considered His coming to them in their generation. But because the Lord had not yet come to THEM at the time of Paul's writing does not lead to the false assumption that He was never intended to come to THEM. The point is that Paul is telling them that Christ would come to THEM but only after the falling away came first and the man of sin was revealed. THEY knew what restrained--the mystery of lawlessness was ALREADY (in THEIR day) at work. The man of sin was a first-century pre-AD 70 person.

Preterist

James 5;8 amplified bible
the coming of the lord is very near.

matthew 6;10
we pray.........your kingdom come
Why pray "your Kingdom come", if the Second Coming was 1900 years ago?


***
matthew 25;34
Jesus will say to me in the future, "inherit the kingdom". This verse 34 is in my future.
verse 46
the wicked WILL GO (future tense) into eternal punishment, and the just WILL GO (future tense) into eternal life.

But, elsewhere in the Scriptures, it says we have (present tense) eternal (or everlasting) life

So, which is it? Do i get everlasting life in the future? or do i have it now?

***

Luke 4;18
Jesus said that He fulfilled that Scripture (verses 18-19)
So, back then, 2000 years ago, Christ released the captives, gave sight to the blind, ..........
Then , why do I know of blind and captive people today? Didn't Jesus fulfill verses 18-19 ,.......2000 years ago?


***

Daniel 9;24
70 weeks after 445 BC (the decree to re-build Jeruslaem), ...Jesus would "put an end to transgression........and bring in everlasting righteousness"

So, Wow! We don't sin any more! There's not been any sin in the last 1900 years! (joking!)

No, seriously.......I'm not a preterist. And i don't believe in preterism. and i don't have all the answers.

***
Paul and James preached that "the coming of the Lord is very near". And (maybe) that was true for the Christians who died 1900 years ago. They've been "with the Lord" for the last 1900 years.

Daniel 9;24
70 weeks are decreed UPON YOUR PEOPLE AND UPON YOUR HOLY CITY JERUSALEM.
maybe that's the key;;;;;;;;;they were speaking in terms of Jews and Jerusalem.

We've been in "the times of the Gentiles" for 1900 years (the clock stopped running at the end of the 69th week)

Soon, the clock will re-start running! Wow!

QUOTE(dennis mann @ Jan 4 2007, 10:59 PM) [snapback]97834[/snapback]

James 5;8 amplified bible
the coming of the lord is very near.

matthew 6;10
we pray.........your kingdom come
Why pray "your Kingdom come", if the Second Coming was 1900 years ago?


***
matthew 25;34
Jesus will say to me in the future, "inherit the kingdom". This verse 34 is in my future.
verse 46
the wicked WILL GO (future tense) into eternal punishment, and the just WILL GO (future tense) into eternal life.

But, elsewhere in the Scriptures, it says we have (present tense) eternal (or everlasting) life

So, which is it? Do i get everlasting life in the future? or do i have it now?

***

Luke 4;18
Jesus said that He fulfilled that Scripture (verses 18-19)
So, back then, 2000 years ago, Christ released the captives, gave sight to the blind, ..........
Then , why do I know of blind and captive people today? Didn't Jesus fulfill verses 18-19 ,.......2000 years ago?


***

Daniel 9;24
70 weeks after 445 BC (the decree to re-build Jeruslaem), ...Jesus would "put an end to transgression........and bring in everlasting righteousness"

So, Wow! We don't sin any more! There's not been any sin in the last 1900 years! (joking!)

No, seriously.......I'm not a preterist. And i don't believe in preterism. and i don't have all the answers.

***
Paul and James preached that "the coming of the Lord is very near". And (maybe) that was true for the Christians who died 1900 years ago. They've been "with the Lord" for the last 1900 years.

Daniel 9;24
70 weeks are decreed UPON YOUR PEOPLE AND UPON YOUR HOLY CITY JERUSALEM.
maybe that's the key;;;;;;;;;they were speaking in terms of Jews and Jerusalem.

We've been in "the times of the Gentiles" for 1900 years (the clock stopped running at the end of the 69th week)

Soon, the clock will re-start running! Wow!

What is the context and the audience relevancy of Matthew 6? Jesus is speaking to the multitudes about the kingdom and how to live in it. All of this (Matthew 5-6) follows His statement in chapter 4 verse 7: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is NEAR." It was NEAR to THEM, not to US! For this reason, I do NOT pray "thy kingdom come." It already came! What do you make of--

Matthew 16:27--"There are some of those who are standing here who shall not taste death until THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His KINGDOM." How may kingdoms are there? It was NEAR to those of the first century! What about--

Matthew 21:40-41, 43, 45--Jesus is telling the parable of the vineyard to the chief priests and elders.

When the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinegrowers? . . . He will bring those
wretches to a wretched end, and will rent out the vineyard to other vinegrowers, who will pay him the
proceeds at the proper seasons. . . . Therefore, I say to YOU (chief priests and elders), the kingdom of
God will be taken away from YOU, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it." Notice the reaction
of the chief priests and Pharisees. "They understood that He was speaking about THEM." If the
kingdom was to be taken from THEM in their lifetimes, how can it be taken from anyone else?

Matthew 25:34--This is the SAME kingdom which was already declared by Jesus to be NEAR. This is the same kingdom which the chief priests and Pharisees understood Jesus to be saying was to be taken from THEM.

Notice also the THENS of chapters 24 and 25. Matthew 24 clearly concerns those things spoken by Jesus to His first-century, pre-AD 70 disciples standing right there with Him. There are over twenty YOUs in this chapter. Jesus is speaking to His disciples in front of Him about things that were to happen to THEM.

Take heed that no one deceives YOU.
YOU will hear of wars and rumors of wars.
See that YOU are not troubled.
THEN they will deliver YOU up to tribulation and kill YOU, and YOU will be hated by all nations.
THEN many will be offended . . .
THEN the end will come.
When YOU see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet.
Pray that YOUR flight may not be in winter . . . .
THEN there will be great tribulation . . . .
THEN if anyone says to YOU . . . [YOU] do not believe it
I have told YOU beforehand.
If they say to YOU . . . [YOU] do not go out . . . [YOU] do not believe it.
IMMEDIATELY after the tribulation of THOSE days (the same tribulatoin His disciples standing right there in front of Him were to experience) . . . .
THEN the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven and THEN all the tribes of the earth will mourn . . . .
YOU know that summer is NEAR . . . So YOU also, when YOU see ALL these things, know that it is NEAR--
at the doors!
Assuredly, I say to YOU, THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place.
THEN (at the coming of the Son of Man) two men will be in the field . . .
[YOU] watch therefore, for YOU do not know what hour your Lord is coming (but they knew that it was NEAR)
YOU also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour YOU do not expect (It is clear here that they
are to be ready because He was coming to THEM!)

Chapter 25--THEN (this is the same THEN that pertained to the things that were to happen to His disciples
right there with Him!). After the parable, Jesus again tells His disciples right there with Him to "Watch therefore, for YOU know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of man is coming. The same is true of the Parable of the Talents--

Consider also 25:31--"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, THEN He will sit on the throne of His glory." This is the SAME coming of Matthew 16:27--"The Son of Man is ABOUT TO COME in the glory of His Father with His angels and will THEN reconpense every man according to his deeds."

Luke 4:18--When Jesus came the first time He performed miracles while He was on earth--raising the dead, healing the lame, giving sight to the blind, etc. Those miracles established beyond doubt His deity. That is why the Jews sought to throw Him over a cliff. Jesus did all of those things while He was on earth. In His kingdom, which is NOT of this world, there is no blindness, death, or pain. While we are still on this earth in these unglorified, untransformed bodies, we will suffer persecution and afflictions. Where are we promised otherwise? Even while Jesus was on earth, He did not heal all the blind, deaf, and lame and did not raise all the dead.

Paul and James said the coming of the Lord was near to THEM because He returned to THEM in their lifetimes. Just as He promised!

The clock did NOT stop after 69 weeks. 70 weeks were decreed and 70 weeks were accomplished. There is no justification for a disconnect between week 69 and 70! All of Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled in the first century AD!

"your people and your holy city" confines it to the Jews.
What is the transgression? Verse 11 demonstrates the guilt of Israel in the transgression, but it was yet to be completed. When was it completed? In Matthew 23:32 Jesus tells those disobedient, apostate, Christ-rejecting Jews that they were to "FILL UP then (finish the transgression) the measure of your fathers' guilt." To "finish the transgression" was none other than the betrayal and crucifixion of their Messiah! Jesus went on to say "that upon you may come ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth." When would this transgression take place and when would God's wrath come upon THEM for their guilt? "ALL these things will come upon THIS generation." "Behold, YOUR house (pre-AD 70 temple) is left unto YOU (first-century, pre-AD 70 apostate Jews) desolate. Of significance also is 1 Thessalonians 2:15, 16 where Paul speaks of these same Jews who brought suffering and persecution upon the saints and forbade the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles "that they may be saved." Paul said that by so doing "they FILL UP the measure of their sins; but wrath HAS COME upon THEM from the uttemost."

"To make an end of sin." Hebrews 10:12 sheds light on this--"when He (Jesus) had by Himself purged our sins." Christ made a perfect atonement and brought an end to the penalty of sin to those who belong to Him. Others believe that this means that Christ brought an end to the sin offering as practiced in the Temple. This is a possibility. It does not, however, say that Christ would put an end to sinning!

"To make reconciliation for iniquity." All were enemies of God (Romans 5:8, 10) until Christ's atonement reconciled us to Him. Those who have forgiveness of sins are also translated into the kingdom of God's dear Son (Colossians 1). Christ made peace through His blood and "reconciled all things to Himself." All of this was accomplished within the 70 weeks.

"To bring in everlasting righteousness." Where is this righteousness? "The kingdom of God is righteousness and peace, and joy" (Romans 14:17). It was an eternal righteousness (Isa. 51:8). The cross was the basis for our righteousness--He made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the rightousness of God in Him." Again, this came about in the 70 weeks.

"To seal up vision and prophecy." Sealing up prophecy can be seen as part of the chastening of Israel. Notice the words of Isaiah spoken against Israel--"And I will camp against you round about, and will lay siege against you with a mount, and raise a fort against you, and you shall be brought down" (Isa. 29:1-4). The nations were to come against their city. Isaiah continues--"For the Lord God has poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and has closed your eyes, the prophets; and your rulers, the seers, has He covered. And the VISION of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is SEALED" (vss. 10, 11).
Notice the similarity with Gabriel's words to Daniel "to seal up vision and prophecy." This explains the deep spiritual blindness evident even in Jesus' day on the part of the unbelieving Jews who sought to destroy Him! It is interesting also that while Daniel was told to "seal up vision and prophecy," the Apostle John was told not to seal up the prophecy because the time was AT HAND! (Rev. 22:10).

"To anoint the most holy place." It is very possible that this is a reference to the coming of the Holy Spirit upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost (while I understand that there are other plausible thoughts).

In any event, all six of these events took place at the first coming of Christ!

In Christ, Preterist

Matthew 16;27-28
amplified bible
Jesus will come in GLORY! with His angels, and then, He will render account with EVERY man.

He has NOT rendered account with ME, so we know that the fulfillment of this in in the FUTURE.

verse 28
the Son of man coming in (into) His Kingdom.

I don't know what this means, unless He is speaking of a Spiritual, In-visible, Heavenly Kingdom.

He told us to pray "Your Will be done on earth , as it is in Heaven."
Jesus is my King NOW. He is my (or the) King of kings and Lord of lords, NOW.
We are subject to His authority and King-ship NOW, whether we know it or not.
He Will Return soon, and will render accounts with all of us soon.
A thousand years seems long to us, but it's just a "day" to Him. He sees it as being "soon".

And again, I don't have all the answers.
I'm just a plow-boy.

Matthew 17;1-9
Jesus was transfigured. His appearance underwent a change,,,,,His face shone clear and bright like the sun.

Is this the fulfillment of Matthew 16;28?


Before the 12 disciples died, didn't Jesus sit down at the right hand of tjhe Father, and become King of all the universe?

Daniel 9;24
70 weeks after 445 BC (the decree to re-build Jeruslaem), ...Jesus would "put an end to transgression........and bring in everlasting righteousness"

Why didn't we see an "end to transgression" 70 weeks after 445BC?

QUOTE(dennis mann @ Jan 7 2007, 08:53 AM) [snapback]98022[/snapback]

Did not Jesus suffer and die for our sins? Did He not judge them on the cross? He did NOT put an end to SINNING; He put an end to sin--the wages of sin, the power of sin, the judgment of sin, the condemnation of sin. "He became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him" (2 Cor. 5:21).

In Christ, Preterist

Transgression; ........a trespass, an offense, a crime

Wow! There's NOT been any trespasses, offences, or crimes, since 1900 years ago! (joking)

Seriously, there's more crimes in the world NOW than 1900 years ago. So,.....the 70th "7" of Daniel 9;24 has not been fulfilled yet.

***

Romans 16;20
amplified bible
the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Today, Satan is STILL influencing people to hate and reject Christ, hate Israel, hate Jews, hate the Scriptures, etc.
Satan (and his demons) are STILL possessing (in-dwelling) people today.
Satan is STILL opposing God Today.
We Christians are STILL "fighting the good fight" against spiritual wickedness (satan and demons) today.
God is still answering prayer today.
God is STILL saving people from their sin Today.

QUOTE(dennis mann @ Jan 7 2007, 07:03 PM) [snapback]98055[/snapback]

Transgression; ........a trespass, an offense, a crime

Wow! There's NOT been any trespasses, offences, or crimes, since 1900 years ago! (joking)

Seriously, there's more crimes in the world NOW than 1900 years ago. So,.....the 70th "7" of Daniel 9;24 has not been fulfilled yet.

***

Romans 16;20
amplified bible
the God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

Today, Satan is STILL influencing people to hate and reject Christ, hate Israel, hate Jews, hate the Scriptures, etc.
Satan (and his demons) are STILL possessing (in-dwelling) people today.
Satan is STILL opposing God Today.
We Christians are STILL "fighting the good fight" against spiritual wickedness (satan and demons) today.
God is still answering prayer today.
God is STILL saving people from their sin Today.

Dennis Mann: Again, I say, Jesus put an end to the power of sin and the penalty of sin--not SINNING. I never said there would be no more SINNING. Furthermore, why in the world does any sin-sick, totally depraved, inherently sinful human being need Satan's influence to commit heinous crimes and wickedness?

What did I say that makes you think that I don't believe that God is no longer answering prayer?
What did I say that makes you think that I don't believe that God is still saving people? He is still
building His Church!
As far as Satan and demons still possessing people today, I think it's a bunch of made up fiction. Furthermore, I believe that the time of wrestling against spiritual powers was a special time which ended when Christ came in His kingdom. Satan was (from their time frame in the first century) SOON crushed then under THEIR feet.

Preterist

[quote name='Preterist' date='Jan 8 2007, 11:08 PM' post='98204']
[b][quote name='dennis mann' post='98055' date='Jan 7 2007, 07:03 PM']
As far as Satan and demons still possessing people today, I think it's a bunch of made up fiction.
Preterist
[/quote]

Yeah... go visit an insane asylum... there are loads there that are opressed by wicked spirits. Go talk to missionaries to India or places like that--- they'll tell you how many are possessed by spirits. There was a young teen that was into shamanism that came into our church one night attending our youth outreach. My Pastor prayed over him in tongues--- You know what the kid said, " Hey, You just cursed my totem spirit in latin!"

*********

i can prove that Satan is STILL influencing people.

How can we explain the anti-Semitism? For thousands of years, world-wide, most people hate Israel, Jews, the God of israel, Christians, the Scriptures, the OT and the NT, Preachers, churches, etc..

There's nothing inherently obnoxious about Jews, Christians, Bible, churches, etc.
No reason for the un-saved to hate them.

But! They are hated, world-wide, for thousands of years.

Satan hates the Jews and Israel ,,,because they brought the Scriptures and the Savior into the world.
And, Israel has a specific part to play in the End-times, so,..........if satan can destroy israel, then, Satan has done the im-possible, THWART GOD AND HIS WORD!

The only understandable reason that people hate the jews is: ..........Satan influences the un-saved to do it.

Replacement theology is anti-Semitism.

That is NOT proof that Satan is still influencing people! The biggest enemy of Israel is Islam and the people who blindly practice it. "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it?" (Jer. 17:9). Man does not need a scapegoat (e.g. Satan) to be the reason for ALL the wickedness in the world!

To say that unbelieving Jews are not the people of God by mere relationship to Abraham is biblical truth NOT anti-Semitism. They need the Lord just as people of all nations do. They do NOT need the true Israel of God, the Church, giving them false assurance of a standing before God! Furthermore, Replacement Theology is NOT the proper terminology. True Jews have ALWAYS been true Jews (Abraham was saved by FAITH -- BEFORE he was circumcised). The same is true of other OT saints. Before the cross, theirs was a faith based upon the promise of redemption; after the cross, ours is a faith based upon the fulfillment of redemption. The Church has NOT replaced Israel--She is Israel--what true Israel always was--the People of God! There were always "JEWS" who called themselves Jews but who were not--they lied (Rev. 2:9; 3:9). There is a continuity in the people of God not a break or a replacement!

Preterist

The pre-tribbers and the post-tribbers use the same statement that you made above. They say that the rapture comes before the tribulation begins because we are not appointed unto wrath.
Now on the surface that seems correct, but there is a fatal flaw in that sentence. We are not apointed unto the wrath of God, but we most certainly will have to face the wrath of Satan until Christ cuts off the great tribulation by rapturing the church.
The fatal flaw is that they call the entire seven years the tribulation period, and the last half the great tribulation. Now no where in the bible is any part of the seventieth week called the tribulation period. But Christ called the wrath of Satan the great tribulation, and it begins at the mid point of the seventieth week and is cut short or ended by Christ rapturing the church.

Once the church is gone there will still be a large number of people in hiding that never acepted Christ. The 144,000 Jews and many others that are not Jews will be sealed with the Holy Spirit to protect them from the wrath of God that will be poured out immediately after the rapture.

Now the topic of this thread is the falling away, and I said that it was primarily the ruling Jews that will sign a covenant with the antichrist.

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Re 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Re 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
That is the beginning of the seventieth week, and now who falls away?

Forty-two months is the mid point of seven years, and the ‘he’ that is in control of the world is the antichrist. He comes in as a friend of Israel and the leaders of Israel will sign what God calls a covenant with death and hell. They forsake the God of their fathers and the law of Moses and turned to another for their protection.

Isa 28:14,15 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Note: Some on this post will try and mess up your mind by saying that all the above took place in the past, but do not let them deceive you. Israel could not sign a covenant with anybody because the Romans were in charge.
Da 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

The word stand up in the passage above is the word "amad" and it has several meanings. If one is lying down and amads he will sit up and if he is sitting down and he amads he will stand up, and if he is standing he will stand still nad do nothing.
Michael has always been Israel's protector, and when he amads he will stand still and the great tribulation will begin. So now you know who will be taken out of the way. If Michael did not amad Satan himself could not enter the temple.

One one of these posts Charley gave me some advice so that I could be as sharp on prophecy as he is and I don't thinik I'll take his advice because I would rather believe the bible than him or that dreamer who posts pages trying to deceive everybody on this web sight. He also didn't give any information as to where I did not measure up to his standards.

God bless all you that put truth before doctrine. I lost a lot of friends when I denounced pretrib, but they are all my friends again, and also my church and my children's churches in other states are not prewrath.

Hey Hammer, so are you saying that Michael is the Restrainer?



Your Friend in Christ,

Val

Messiahiscoming

Hey Hammer, so are you saying that Michael is the Restrainer?



Your Friend in Christ,

Val

Messiahiscoming

Greetings brother or sister:?

You bet Michael is the restrainer, and always has been and will continue to protect Israel until he is told to amad or stand still. In the passages below the woman is the nation of Israel (the 144,000 Jews). When the antichrist can not get to Israel he will go after the church world wide. This is the wrath of Satan and it will continue until Christ comes back and cuts the great tribulation short. Mt 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. The word shortened in Greek is amputate or cut off. Actually it is the great earthquake that will stop the antichrist's forces, because the earth will be plunged into darkness by dust and at the same time all the heavenly lights will go out. Then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds for his church.

Da 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
Da 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall MICHAEL stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
We know that the verse above happens at the mid-point of the seventieth week, and when Michael amads the antichrist will go after the Jews first and when he can't get to them he will go after the christians.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Re 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Re 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Re 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

There are several other passages that ties into this subject but it would take several pages to cover it like I would like.
Love you and may Christ bless you and your family; You too Miki.

Hey Hammer , yes it is sister.

Finally someone that has came to the same conclusion as I! I have only found a handful of
others that believe this way!

Here is a post that I posted from another forum awhile back. It basically says what you are are saying and the verses that you use.....

_______________________________________________________________________________________

Well I had always thought that the Restrainer was the Holy Spirit. Yet when I tried to find other scripture to support this view I could not find any. To me scripture must interpret scripture! So some years ago I set out to see if I could find other scripture.

I feel that the restrainer is "Michael the Arch Angel"

Daniel 10:21

But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

holdeth Strong's

) to strengthen, prevail, harden, be strong, become strong, be courageous, be firm, grow firm, be resolute, be sore

a) (Qal)
1) to be strong, grow strong
a) to prevail, prevail upon
to be firm, be caught fast, be secure
c) to press, be urgent
d) to grow stout, grow rigid, grow hard (bad sense)
e) to be severe, be grievous
2) to strengthen
(Piel)
1) to make strong
2) to restore to strength, give strength
3) to strengthen, sustain, encourage
4) to make strong, make bold, encourage
5) to make firm
6) to make rigid, make hard
c) (Hiphil)
1) to make strong, strengthen
2) to make firm
3) to display strength
4) to make severe
5) to support
6) to repair
7) to prevail, prevail upon
8) to have or take or keep hold of, retain, hold up, sustain, support
9) to hold, contain
d) (Hithpael)
1) to strengthen oneself
2) to put forth strength, use one's strength
3) to withstand 4) to hold strongly with

Daniel 12

1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book


II Thess. 2:6-8

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

I think that to reconcile this passage in II Thess. you must have scipture to back up who the restrainer is. I think that these passage give a very good case for the Restrainer being Michael the Prince Arch Angel!



Messiahiscoming

Ok..I'm exhausted of reading...but l have to reply. l was over on the rapture string where benny gave a long but interesting teaching about the Olive Tree. Whether he cut and pasted someone else's work is up to his conscience. It was too much for me to take in and retain but l got some really good snippets to hold on to. Thanks benny

Hi yourself HAMMER..and thanks for the blessing. May it stick on me. I'm glad l'm not the only one contending with their flesh around here!

I also read on one of these two strings what ferv said about breaking the seal on the puzzle box. Great thought Larry.

Let me ask a question...Say we had a big terror attack that crippled the US. Or say we had the Ez. 38-39 war....Does that necessarily have to be considered the start of the tribulation? Everything that God has shown me thus far...dreams, visions, words and insights have to with a chastening...of the Church.

We know he chastens the church before the world...Is that this blurry area that is pre to the rapture?
In other words...are we assuming that just because something as great as one of these two events happens that it means tribulation or great tribulation has started...?

I can see if something like that happens and the church is still here that there just might be a great falling away. But why does it have to be part of the trib period...?why can't it be chastisement under grace like what l believed the Lord has shown me again and again...


Before coming here this morning a got an article in my mail box by Tomas Ice who is total pre trib...But l noticed some thing different in his article which l will post below and then l will highlight what l want to mention. God has had me on this mental string these last couple of days and everybody's thought seem to line up. Here it is.



In the above that he has highlight he suggests that the Ez38 war might possibly not be included in the tribulation. We've got to come to terms about tribulation, great tribulation, and wrath...We all have tribulation...God says so. Right now...All over the world..So we can be chastised sorely and still have it not be among the counting of days.

Then it would fit into what both of us say. Both Pre and Mid....It just depends on when the clock begins to tick. I think from what benny said about the fullness of the Gentiles (ripe fruit maybe) that grace remains until the church is taken out. Then the restrainer...maybe my friend Michael...will stand back or stand up...which ever and the clock will begin it's arduous journey.

Val...I didn't have that dream for nothing.

II Thess. 2:6-8

6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Let me try to put this in my own words.

6Now we know what holdeth (that has to be Christ) that he might be revealed in his time..(talking about the revelation of Christ and or the revelation the antichrist?)

7 Mystery of iniquity...antichrist? ONLY....the person who lets can let even though iniquity has been working. He will be taken out of the way. Michael? Holy Spirit? Both together?

8 Hes talking about present tense to context and also a happy future reminder.

Let's see? Did l say anything new here?

In a nut shell and to accentuate that my focus was on the timing of the beginning of the tribulation. Not because some huge event happens does it start...but when the church is taken out....and only then.

I'm not set in stone but thinking out loud.... at the direction l think the Lord is taking me.

And l think benny said (or somebody) in another string that the tribulation can't start until the dispensation of grace is over and that can't happen till the church is gone.

I went to a lot of trouble to sift this out...my questions and comments and learning from what you all have been talking about. No one seems to care so l have another friend l will ask and when and if l get an answer l'll post it.

Hi Miki! I really was not trying to avoid you it has just been crazy around my place.

I need to have time to really go through your post. It seems that from what I gathered

you are asking if Ezekiel 38 & 39 could happen prior to the tribulation starting. Yes I think

that is a possibility. We do have a seven year time frame spoken in chapter 38. It speaks

7 years to burn the weapons of war/ 7 months to bury the dead. Anyway I need to go back

over your post to soak it all in. I have just not had time, but I will.



Your Friend in Christ,

Val

Messiahiscoming

Oh good!

Yes that is what l'm saying. Not even necessarily Ez. 38 but say a crippling terrorist attack or massive earthquake that leaves the US in a third world state.

Isn't it true that the tribulation can't start until the period of grace is over? It can't be over until the rapture. The clock can't start ticking until then.

Couldn't the events l described above cause people to think the tribulation has started and they missed the boat?

And what kind of grace? Old T. grace? Is that the kind that will be available? We can still be saved. Because we know at the sheep and goat judgement that some are still being saved. And that's at the end of everything with just the handful that made it to the end.

Miki: You put it into YOUR own words all right! But you changed the YE to WE! Upon what justification? Paul is addressing the THESSALONIANS--not US. What did these words mean to THEM? Why did Paul write to THEM? WE are not those who know who the restrainer WAS--THEY were.

Notice the CONTEXT. Notice the beginning of Chapter 2--Now, BRETHREN (Thessalonians) concerning the COMING of our Lord Jesus and OUR (Paul, the Thessalonians and other first-century, pre-AD 70 saints) gathering together to Him, we ask YOU, not to be shaken in mind or troubled either in spirit or in word or by letter . . . ."

Apparently, in the CONTEXT of Paul's letter, there were some teaching that the Lord's PRESENCE (parousia) was already with THEM. He is not teaching that they were wrong to expect His COMING (parousia--"presence") in THEIR lifetimes--just that it was not YET present among THEM. Paul had told THEM before about the man of sin to be revealed--THEY knew what restrained him in THEIR time.

What is the audience relevance here? Why is everything about US?

Preterist

Miki,
For many years I truly believed the whole "mainstream christian" rapture and tribulation teaching because it is what I was taught and I thought it sounded reasonable.

It wasnt until I began to seek first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness, and not the traditions of men and really seek God's truth with only His Spirit to guide me that I began to have sight.
There are a couple of scripture verses that tell us the truth.
Matt 24:
36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels