This is just my opinion, but I feel that the Two Witnesses are real human beings that will be given authority to control any impartial doings on this earth at anytime through the power of God for 1260 days. God will give them power to control the weather. God will show us things that some thought not possible. I see it as a promise that we will have peace on earth as it is in heaven.

You are right .

Why the weather ? I think it was Elijah who prayed for rain wasn't it ?

Anyhow , I would have thought Moses , Elijah , ( maybe Enoch) , arecommonly thought to be the ones for the task , but it is a serious bit of Scripture you are talking about .

What other options are there ?

Surely this is a literal piece of scripture ?

Symbolism Used Frequently in the Bible


Here are some of the most common examples of symbols that will enable you to connect the themes underlying Scripture. Not all of these are symbolic of these things every time, but especially when a given Scripture is clearly in parable or metaphorical form, it is good to check and see if they fit before looking for other interpretations.


Gold = Deity; highest quality; heavenly perfection

Silver = representative of blood, redemption or its price

Bronze/brass = a container for fire; related to sin

Wood = corruptible flesh

Fire = Judgment or God's presence (especially in a torch)

Stone = something always ritually pure

Clay = ritually corruptible, weakened, man-made

Uncut stone = the way God made it, unhampered by human effort

Rock = place of safety, military advantage

Gates = the seat of judgment and decision-making in a city

Mountains = government

Tower = Place of security; watchfulness

Table = feasting

Chair = throne or judgment

Sea = Gentile nations; the restlessness of human efforts; prison of some demons

Tent = transitory nature of life; sojourning; a mobile place of worship

Living Water = running water; ritual purification

Flour/meal/bread/grain = fellowship with God or with other men

Leaven = sin or pride (puffs up to appear more than it really is)

Wine (or cup) = either joy and gladness or stinging, burning "desserts"

(Animal) Horn = power, protection

Sheep = God's people

Shepherd = leader

Goat = antithesis of sheep; often demonic or Gentile leader

Lion = ruler

Snake/serpent/dragon = Satan/sin

Raven = representative of unclean birds (sometimes a term for demons)

Dove = clean, ritually pure; the Holy Spirit

Animal skins = sacrificial death

Blood = murder

(At one's) Right hand = position of highest privilege

Cherubim = angelic "guardians" of God's throne or position

Rod or scepter = rulership, protection

Line = measurement, boundary mark

Sackcloth (burlap) and ashes = deep mourning

Incense = acceptable prayer

Clouds = God's presence; mystery; multitudes of saints

Sword = war or judicial authority

Trumpet = awakening from normal routines

Light = revelation, truth

Oil = the Holy Spirit

Almond tree = harbinger of the new year

Olive tree = Israel's spiritual life

Fig tree = Israel's religious life

Vine = Israel's national life

Wind = spirit, breath

North = evil, idolatrous influence


Notice the combinations of symbols like the burning bush (God speaking through corruptible flesh without consuming it), brass serpent (sin being judged), etc.


Thanks to Chuck Missler, Arthur Custance, Web Hulon, and A.B. Simpson's Divine Emblems (Camp Hill, PA: Christian Publications, 1995) for some of these insights.


How Certain Numbers are Used in the Bible:

Long before the "Bible codes" were discovered, scholars realized there was deep significance to each mention of how many of something there was in the Bible -- 3 of this, 7 of that, 12 of the other, etc. E.W. Bullinger's Number in Scripture (Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1967) gives many details of the following legitimate understandings of numerology as used in the Bible. No hype, but awe-inspiring evidence of what only God could have woven into the text:

1 = Unity; primacy; sufficiency; beginning

2 = Division; differentness; opposition -- or intensification; doubling

3 = Solidity; divine perfection; entirety; substantiveness; Godhead; concentrated essence

4 = creation; createdness; material completeness

5 = grace; favor; healing; supernatural strengthening; forgiveness

6 = man's world; man's works; man's enmity to God; secular completeness

7 = spiritual perfection; God's choice vs. man's

8 = A new beginning; first of a new series; superabundance; resurrection

9 = end; conclusion of a matter;

10 = Perfection of the divine order; assurance of completion

11 = addition (subversive of and undoing) the divine order

12 = Governmental perfection (3 x 4)

13 = rebellion; apostasy; corruption; disintegration; adversaries

yet also atonement ("He was numbered with the transgressors.")

Multiples or combinations of these numbers can represent combinations of these different themes. For example,

5's = nearly all dimensions and articles of the tabernacle come in multiples of 5

15 (3 x 5) = acts wrought by divine grace

17 (7 + 10) = perfection of spiritual order

19 (9 + 10) = perfection of divine order re: judgment

20 (21 - 1) = expectancy; waiting for fulfillment

21 (7 x 3) = completion re: spiritual perfection

22 (11 x 2) = intensified disorganization or disintegration

24 (12 x 2) = higher or heavenly government and worship

30 (3 x 10) = perfection of divine order; the right moment

40 (5 x 8) = probation; trial; discipline; or enlarged dominion, extended rule (4 x 10)

42 (6 x 7) = man's attempt at spiritual perfection

50 (5 x 10) = perfect deliverance; (7 x 7 + 1) = continued deliverance following the perfect consummation of time

70 (7 x 10) = spiritual order carried out with spiritual power

120 (3 x 40) = divinely appointed period of probation

666 = man pretending to be God; concentrated human pride


Hebrew (and sometimes Greek) letters with these numerical values also signify the same themes.


More on Bible Interpretation


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[Malachi 4:5] BEHOLD, I WILL SEND YOU ELIJAH THE PROPHET BEFORE THE COMING
OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD:
[Malachi 4:6] AND HE SHALL TURN THE HEART OF THE FATHERS TO THE CHILDREN,
AND THE HEART OF THE CHILDREN TO THEIR FATHERS, LEST I COME AND SMITE THE
EARTH WITH A CURSE.

Would that be the same spirit of Elijah that John the Baptist had?

http://www.mt.net/~watcher/twowitnesses.html

am being lazy !

and am NOT endorsing this website !!

Matthew 20 verse 20 to the end explains the two witnesses .

The whole transfiguration account is shot through with symmetries .

The ten and the two ( Israel and Judah ) .
The three into two .( John James and Peter ) Benjamin , Judah + Levi ?

the two witnesses will be men, but really they are angels, the ones who stand before god. read daniel 8;10 the beast steps on the stars and throws them to the ground. then read zechariah 4:3. they will be flesh and blood but inside they are angels.

the two witnesses in revelation are two angels... AS in the days of Lot, so too, two witnesses are sent to send judgement on that city, (last days, Jeruslem is spiritually Sodom)


In Zecheriah, hte passage does not commit the two witnesses are only existing for 3.5 years, in Zecheriah, the passage is an eternal statement of fact, they are the two who stand in the presence of the Lord.. (having been written way over 400 years pre- REvelation)

The two cheruibs over the ark.. two witnesses, in His presence, only they see his full glory which is covered from all others....

Solomon was to build two large cherubs out of, yo uguessed it, two olive trees.. again, the bible interpreting the bible here...

No one cn hurt them, only the beast that comes ot from the pit.....

I'll get the study out to all if interested ...

Chrsit said Elijah already cme, it is NOT Elijah, tha is contradicting Chrsit. HAD the jews accepted John, then the prophecies of destrying their enemies woule have occured, but they mised the time of their visitation, instead, theyu were sent out in the world as a cursed people, in exile, their city left desolate til the end..

The parable of the rich man and lazarus proves also taht even if a dead man, (Moses or any other prophet of old)( were to come back, no one would listen to them.....

The witneses come becaues God cannot pronounce judgement unles there are two witnesses to stand up as witness , as in Sodom.....

Carmine


God Bless...

cArmine

REmember, scripture interpreting s ripture, we have to go thru each clue given for who the two witnesses are and find scriptural proof of each and every single one of them, otherwise, we start to guess.

Clue 1 ... Two Olive Trees

1 Kings 6:
-----------

23: And within the oracle he made two cherubims of OLIVE TREE, each
ten cubits high.
24: And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits
the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one
wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.
25: And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of
one measure and one size.
26: The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of
the other cherub.
27: And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they
stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the
one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched
the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of
the house.
28: And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.



Did you notice something? The two cherubim were carved out of Two
Olive Trees!

This is exactly the figurative term - Olive Trees - used in Rev.11:4
and Zech. 4:3 to describe the Two Witnesses. The inevitable
conclusion must be, that the Two Witnesses, who are also referred to
as Two Olive Trees, must be the two archangels represented by the
cherubim made of Olive Trees on either side of the ark of the
covenant.

AS we have seen already from Exodus 37:
---------------------------------------

6: And he made the mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half
was the length thereof, and one cubit and a half the breadth
thereof.
7: And he made two cherubims of gold, beaten out of one piece made
he them, on the two ends of the mercy seat;
8: One cherub on the end on this side, and another cherub on the
other end on that side: out of the mercy seat made he the cherubims
on the two ends thereof.
9: And the cherubims spread out their wings on high, and covered
with their wings over the mercy seat, with their faces one to
another; even to the mercy seatward were the faces of the cherubims.


Any other passage that shows proofs of this pattern? Yes....



Isaiah 37:16
-----------

O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, that dwellest between the cherubims,
thou art the God, even thou alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth:
thou hast made heaven and earth.

where does God dwell in between? (remember the earthly is just the
pattern of something greater!)


Psalm 80:1
------------

1: Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a
flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth.



Psalm 99:1
-----------

1: The LORD reigneth; let the people tremble: he sitteth between the
cherubims; let the earth be moved.

In whose presence are these two cherubs? Is there any question in
these verses that it is not one, not 24, not 12, but 2 that stand
and are the covering cherubs, in the very presence of God, who
behold his glory....

continuing:
-----------

Ezekiel 10:1-12
-----------------

1: Then I looked, and, behold, in the firmament that was above the
head of the cherubims there appeared over them as it were a sapphire
stone, as the appearance of the likeness of a throne.

2: And he spake unto the man clothed with linen, and said, Go in
between the wheels, even under the cherub, and fill thine hand with
coals of fire from between the cherubims, and scatter them over the
city. And he went in in my sight.

3: Now the cherubims stood on the right side of the house, when the
man went in; and the cloud filled the inner court.

4: Then the glory of the LORD went up from the cherub, and stood
over the threshold of the house; and the house was filled with the
cloud, and the court was full of the brightness of the LORD's glory.

----> NOTICE something... the glory of the Almighty God went up
from the midest of the cherubs, where it originates from, from
within the throne. Who are the two who are in the presence of the
fulness of God's glory?

5: And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer
court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.


----> Notice something else: the cherubs are not in the outer
court, (like the tribes, (ephraim and Judah), they were in the very
throne room, (aka.. holies of holies).....


6: And it came to pass, that when he had commanded the man clothed
with linen, saying, Take fire from between the wheels, from between
the cherubims; then he went in, and stood beside the wheels.
7: And one cherub stretched forth his hand from between the
cherubims unto the fire that was between the cherubims, and took
thereof, and put it into the hands of him that was clothed with
linen: who took it, and went out.
8: And there appeared in the cherubims the form of a man's hand
under their wings.
9: And when I looked, behold the four wheels by the cherubims, one
wheel by one cherub, and another wheel by another cherub: and the
appearance of the wheels was as the colour of a beryl stone.
10: And as for their appearances, they four had one likeness, as if
a wheel had been in the midst of a wheel.
11: When they went, they went upon their four sides; they turned not
as they went, but to the place whither the head looked they followed
it; they turned not as they went.
12: And their whole body, and their backs, and their hands, and
their wings, and the wheels, were full of eyes round about, even the
wheels that they four had.


Hope that offered additional material to study ..

next study up and coming. remembe,r we are defining the two
witnesses by the bible and waht the bible has already given us...
these two cherubs are made of Olive trees.. these are the two olive
trees of God of Zecheriah and in the midst of them, is the fulness
of the glory of God..

the next clue, we will discuss in the next post....

Carmine

I am not sure that Luke 16 ( the rich man and Lazarus ) proves that . You could argue it the other way round , they won't listen to Moses , living or dead .

I am not sure that the two angels in Sodom and Gomorrah are there to send judgement . Jesus calls down judgement from God . The two angels are there to instruct us . They show us the nature of the sin , that previously we have been told reaches up to heaven . ( i.e. the rape of itinerant tradesmen , and their probable murder ) .

RE Elijah :

Matthew 17 v11:And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

That fits Malachi 4 perfectly , which is pretty unequivocallly an end-time event .

Matthew 11 : 12 :
But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them .

If 17 : 11 is for the time of Jesus , then Jesus is contradicting HIMSELF , by saying that John the Baptist a ) will restore all things , but no-one has listened to him !!

Simplebaby,
Matthew 17:12 provides Jesus interpretation of the disciples question in verse 10. Verse 11 is Jesus' acknowledgement of the teaching of Elijah coming before Messiah. He is telling the disciples that the teachers of the law are right, Elijah does come first and intruduces Messiah (restoration of all things). Even though the restoration is not complete, Jesus explains in verse 12 that Elijah has already come, that they did NOT recognize him. Then in the second half of the verse he describes the true nature of restoration God intended: that the Son of Man would suffer (Isaiah 53). The Jews misunderstood the form that restoration was provided.

Pilgrim

I am just going on the tense used:

Future Tense , 'Elias shall surely come' ( Matthew ) ..............before the terrible day of the Lord ( Malachi ) .

The Pharisees wouldn't accept John The Baptist's ministry ( Luke ), if they had , they would have logically accepted Jesus as The Christ .

The religious leaders saw Elijah as a prerequisite for Christ's coming , ( even Jesus asked if people were speculating whether he was Elijah , in preparation for Himself so to speak ) .

Jesus is being double-edged , Elijah has come , ( and not been recognized ) , but will come again in person , ( not spirit ) , and will be recognized by the Jews .

Once again we are back to the Jews being deliberately blinded and shut out ( Romans ) .

when yo read Romans, Paul quotes isaiah and Hosea, definitely pasages regardin g the northern tribes of israel, not the southern tribes we call jews...

Also, regrding Elijah.... Malachi is fulfilled....

The restoration was not with observation, which ws jewish expectation. IF we choose to reinterprete it in our day again as the jews did, then we are as guilty sa the pharisees were then...

This is the next part, continuation of the last post to help out a little:

In this part, I would like to explore the biblical reference which
negates the point that a prophet of the past would be the one to
come back as one of the witnesses....

The basic premise goes something like this:

During the final 3 1/2 years of great tribulation, there will be two
men who will prophecy and witness of the glory , power and holiness
of God. They will do so in great power, and as a result of their
ministry, many thousands will finally accept Jesus as their personal
Lord and Savior. Within this camp, it is almost unanimous in belief
that one of these is Elijah. The reason for this position is the
misunderstanding of the prophecy in Malachi that states the
following:

Malachi 4:5
-----------
5: Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of
the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and
the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite
the earth with a curse.

In their opinion, this is not yet fulfilled. What they believe is
that Elijah must return, physically, again... in our day. However,
this position is in direct conflict with the teaching of our Lord
Jesus Christ. Conisder that as in our day we have great teachers of
the bible, scholars who know almost everything there is to know,
*yet many are wrong on many things), so too, in Christ's day, also,
thre were teachers who also held the belief that Elijah would return
physically...

Consider John 1:21:
------------------

19: And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and
Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20: And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the
Christ.
21: And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I
am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

In other words, they were expecting a live, physical appearing of a
man, who was born, in the flesh, called Elijah, that had somehow
dissappeared centuries before, to return again, in the same body,
with the same name, etc.... Before someone says to me, but John
said he wasn't Elijah, etc.. we will get into this furthur down.....

Today, many hold the same understanding and wold be asking any man
who appears in Jerusalem in the last days, "are you the Elijah"? So
far, many counterfeit messianic minded men have come forth calling
themselves Elijah, or Moses, etc....

I believe, if we read the bible with this frame of reference in
mind, we find something very interesting come forth. Jesus
clarifies the issue at hand as to the appearing of Elijah.

Jesus said something very interesting regarding the appearing of
Elijah in the flesh..... Let's look at Matthew's account

Matthew 11:
------------
11: Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there
hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he
that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12: And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of
heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force.
13: For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14: And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
15: He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

NOTICE A VERSE THAT IS ALWAYS OVERLOOKED.. it describes a mystery of
sorts...

---> verse 15.... "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Where have we heard this before? in what context? Whenever Christ
says these words, he is uttering a mystery, something shrouded,
veiled from the normal eyes and ears of men.. thus, Chrsit says..
for those who have ears to hear, hear well what I just said... That
John the BAptist was the greatest of prophets....

and.. a (condition.. hear this well...), and "if" ye will receive
it, this is Elias, which wsa for to come.

What did our Lord say? This wsa the Elijah prophecized........

Christ didn't say that Elijah had to come in the flesh of centuries
before... Christ said those who have an ear, let them hear! The
day of the Lord, the judgement of the nations was suppossed to
happen in the first century but Israel denied their messiah and
after the sign of 40 years of probation, the temple was destroyed
and left desolate til the end) They were offered the kingdom,
refused it, so the kingdom was given to another...

If we overlook Christ's words, make them naught by sayiong, oh, but
that was just the spirit of Elijah, but Elijah is still to come, you
deny Christ's words here. Chrsit said if you will receive this word,
(he who has an ear, let them hear), this is Eliah... you can't get
any more direct than this.. He didn't say this is one who came in
the spirit of Elijah, alluding to maybe a physical appearance of
Elijah in the future, he said this is Elijah... But the call to
repentance, a voice crying in the wilderness fell mostly on deaf
ears... israel did not repent.... many's heart did not turn to the
fathers. had they believed Moses, they would have believed me,
(Christ).. thus, a cursed people were scattered into the world,
(lest I strike the world with a curse.. malachi 4:6)

continuing.....


REmember this.... John's failure to correctly understand what had
been written in Malachi did not change the fact that Jesus
considered the ministry of John the Baptist to be the fulfillment of
that Old Testament prophecy. After all, John's confusion about the
identity of Jesus did not change the fact that Jesus was the Messiah
in Matthew 11:2 and Luke 7:18. Did it?

It also seems that this confusion over the ministry of John
continued even with the interpretation of the transfiguration of
Christ. Right after the transfiguration, in the same gospel, Christ
had to again, reiterate the fact that:

Matthew 17:12 .... "Elijah has already come and they did not
recognize him ..." What Jesus was saying was that John the Baptist
fulfilled his ministry with the same power and spirit (ie. in the
same manner) as Elijah fulfilled his (Lk.1:17), and it was this fact
(that John walked in the spirit and power of Elijah) that fulfilled
the prophecy of Malachi4:5, not the appearance of Elijah on the
Mount of Transfiguration, and certainly not some future
reappearance. This is not an easy thing to understand, which is why
Jesus cautioned His disciples to seek spiritual ears so that they
could clearly understand that which was being said to them
concerning this topic.

Now, I know.. is this a mute pooint to go over all this? Actually
it is not and let me explain why. If we are to watch for Jesus'
return as we are told to do so, if w are to study and know the signs
of the times, how much is ist going to help us to be looking for a
fulfilment of a prophecy of "Elijah" if that was already fulfilled
200 years ago? Yet, who ARE the opnes awaiting Elijah? They are
the children of those who refused to believe Chrsit in the first
century, those who didn't have an ear to hear. And during passover,
they leave an open seat for Elijah.. (because in their mind, messiah
still has not come and Elijah is the forerunner), since they d not
believe in Chrsit as the messiah, then Elijah is still future....

Now, regarding the second witness, many believe it is Moses.... or
even Enoch.

the argument regarding Enoch rests in the verse of scripture that
says :

Hebrews 11:5
------------
5: By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and
was not found, because God had translated him: for before his
translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

and since elsewhere in hebrews it says the following:

Hebrews 9:27
-------------
27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the
judgment:

they believe that Elijah and Enoch didn't die and since all are
appointed to die once, they have to come back.

First off, the scripture is taken totally out of context. If it is
interpreted this way, then no one who is raptured goes to heaven, no
one passes from life without going thru death first. Thus, all who
are raptured have to die first...

Enoch and Elijah should not be viewed as the only two men who must
yet face death, so must come back. Rather, they should be viewed as
part of the pattern which God has set up showing us that His desire
for us is not death and destruction, but life in its fullest (John
10:10-12). And that life includes the possibility held out for us in
I Cor.15:51-54, which is being alive and remaining at the coming of
the Lord with out first having tasted of physical death. To insist
upon the physical death of Enoch and Elijah is in fact an instance
on our part that God break His own pattern. I hope that offers
enough meat for now to consider the pattern set up.


The issue with the Elijah/Moses scenario comes from passages in
REvelation wh8ich speak of the miracles performed, thus, pointing to
Moses. However, both the Elijah/Enoch and Elijah/Moses viewpoints
seem to ignore the clear teachings of Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 which
contains the account of Lazarus and the Rich Man.

Luke 16:
--------
19: There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and
fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at
his gate, full of sores,
21: And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich
man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22: And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by
the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was
buried;
23: And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth
Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24: And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and
send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and
cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25: But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime
receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but
now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26: And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf
fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27: Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest
send him to my father's house:
28: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest
they also come into this place of torment.
29: Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let
them hear them.
30: And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from
the dead, they will repent.
31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


As you will notice from verse 27, the Rich Man was requesting that
some former resident of earth return from paradise to witness to his
five brothers so that they would believe and not end up as did the
Rich Man. Abraham's response was clear, "... if they do not listen
to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if
someone rises from the dead." (Lk.16:31).

If it would have been no good to send Elijah and Moses back to earth
then, (and God, who does not lie, said it would), why would it now
all of a sudden make more sense to physically send them to a world
which has not only rejected them before, but has also rejected the
very Savior they were preaching about? (Acts 3:24 & 7:52)

Lastly, please consider this....

On the Mount of Transfiguration Moses and Elijah did reappear on the
earth transfigured with Christ. The transfiguration shows us that
Moses (representing the Law), and Elijah (symbolizing the prophets)
disappeared, leaving only Jesus (Matthew 17:8 and Luke9:36).

In Luke 24:44 Jesus said ... "Everything must be fulfilled that is
written about Me in the Law of Moses, the prophets and the Psalms"

Jesus also said that He would fulfill the law (Matthew 5:17-18),
which he did:

Romans 7:6
Colossians 2:13-14
Ephesians 2:15

Therefore, the witness of Moses is no longer required, which is why
on the Mount of Transfiguration, he disappeared. In fact, it is the
continual witness of Moses today which hinders so many people in the
receiving of their salvation experience

2 Corinthians 3:15 ... "15: But even unto this day, when Moses is
read, the vail is upon their heart"

Also, Jesus said in Matthew 11:13 that all the prophets prophesied
until John the baptist. On the Mount of Transfiguration we see that
Elijah, who symbolized the prophets, also disappeared. Just as
salvation does not come about from the witness of the Law, so also
does it not come about from the witness of the prophets. Jesus was
the only one of the three who remained on the Mount of
Transfiguration. Jesus is representative of the Psalms of
Luke.24:44. It is the Psalms, the songs the love of God for the
World (John 3: 16) that will witness to the world in these end
times, not Moses & Elijah/ Enoch. The world will know we are
Christians by our love (John 13:35), not by our outward actions
(Law) or knowledge (prophets) (see I Cor. 13:1-3).

This was by far,not a tight, neat package but it offered a few
things to consider, enough to place doubt in the current theology
out there regarding two prophets from the past coming back....
Gotta run for now.. will continue tudy sa soon sa some time avails...

God Bless

CArmine

ps....

just a last point.. MAlachi's prophecy regrding Elijah had a conditioin..."lest I strike the world with a curse".

the denial of Elijah's mesage was teh desolation of JEruslaem and the exile of a "cursed people" from Jerusalem, a people who denied the son, (thus denied the father).. these were those of the rabbinic camp.. the early church had it's jews and Israealites, Pauls proves it, he was of the tribe of Benjamin, proving God did not leave his people alone but gave them grace also to come in.. (only the remnant did, as we know from all generations)

This iwas Elijah that was to come.. just as Chrsit wsa teh messiah that was to come. They rejected both Elijah and Chrsit.. the end days, the same thing happens when antichrist of the jews re-establishes and sows back up, the torn veil and re establishes animal scrifice, pouring animal blood over rthe sacrificed blood of the lamb of God, (covering Chrsit's blood with animal blood)

They will get their expectations but it is called the false prophet and the beast.

WE are buying into jewish expectation as if all they had wsa the timing wsa off, RATHER THAN KNOW Christ didn't correct their timing, Christ corrected their understanding. A MAJOR DIFFERENCE....... MAJOR.........

Chrsitians in dispensaltional theology think Christ only corrected their timing.... thus justifying the pharisees as to their interpretation, not timing.....

Elijah came, they dind't see it.. the kingdom of God does NOT, I repeat, NOT come with observation!
Chrsit said it.. it doesn't get any simpler than that. Who is going to contradict the savior?

In these last days, every single jewish expectation has become a christian reality in dispensational thinking. they believe in an earthl kingdom, (jewish expectation of the first century) an Elijah that comes before hand wtih a messiah that appears sudenly in their temple........

The joining in of the two stickes happened in the first century and continues as God continues to bring gentiles and the hosue of israel together as ONE in the branch/stick which was the house of Judah, (first century remnant)..... as long as we think that was not fulfilled, we buy into jewish fables.....

Regarding Elijah, Christ said.."he who has an ear, let him hear" it is a mystery fulfilled in John.... When Chrsit comes back, ne comes for a ready bride, not for half a bride and conversion at his coming, that is NOT BIBLICAL.......... a rady bride means teh bride is ready when he shows up, they don't convert at the appearing, it is too late.. (again, the jews lost the blessing and the kingdom 9which did not come with observation) was given to another. the role of evangelism of the world went to another rather than anational jewish state, 9again, this is jewish expectation leavened into christianity) that the jews will proseletyze the world from jerusalem over 1000 years...

gotta run but think on thes things... Elijah wold have come had ou accepted John. (in other words, the promises given for ou wold have happened had ou accepted him..)that is like saying as a father, I would have given you the car had you been good.. it doesn't mean youa re getting it in the future cuz i promised it to you, ou lost out, the car, as a reality is already here....


simple baby... malachi.."lest I strike the world with a curse" condition and respnse for rejection of Elijah

My former Sunday School teacher (deceased) was a wonderful Christian. He said "It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement. Therefore, We who are alive at the rapture must die, if only for a moment, before being caught up into the clouds". Our pastor disagreed with that.

I don't know who is right.

dennis manning

Dennis, the pasage in scripture tells us that the resurection of the dead, (graves opened) occurs first, then we who are alive are caught up. Now, if we were to die for even an instant, then we wold be defined as those in the grave.. yet, the graves wre already emptied so we missed the train..

The idea of die once, then the judgement is in regards to no second chances....

Hebrews 9
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


The context of that passage is that Christ died once, he cannot die repeatedly, over and over again..... and the judgment of man comes after death.... (man in general). since Christ already died for us, (having died once) and been judged, taking upon himself our sin), then when he does come back, it won't be with the condemnation of sin that he must again bare for us, but rather with the fulfillment of the glorious hope.....

I hope that made sense regarding this passage.. the context was in to show the difference between hsi two comings....

It is appointed for man to die once because of the judgement of the flesh... WE are born marked for death, in temporal bodies..... this is a blessing that God took awa the tree of life from us, (call it mercy killing).. (we can discuss what happened in teh garden of eden at a future time), .. but for now, since Chrsit already died for us, this appointment with death is not guarenteed any longer... Those who are alive at his coming do't have to pass into death..

Remember, in Adam all died, in Christ , all are made alive. Or soul, who we are does NOT die at death, this is the first resurrection. Chrsit said that those who are his will never die. HE said NEVER.. he was not talking allogorically, he was talking fact. But since we identify our soul with our body, we fail to see what he meant. We are made alive in Chrsit NOW and that doesn't change when the body dies.. The body's death is a result of the mercy killing of God to not allow man to live eternally in sin, but to end this exile, pilgrims in a strange land.. that is who he went to prepare a place for us.. a place that we cold rejoin him eternally with "new clothes", not those of the flesh....

Man is judged once but those of the first resurrection, the second death has no power over them.. they have overcome the judgement of the great white throne

Anyway, hope that offered some idea wh4ere I see it....

Also, for all, I had a very hard night and day today so if my last post appeared to be a little on edge, please consider I did what I cold to withhold the bitterness I had all day and hope it wasn't reflected in any of my psots today... Itf it was, I apologize....

CArmine

'And if you will receive it' ........

'He that hath ears to hear '...........

The message is for those that have ears to hear .

The Jews didn't have ears to hear , because their hearing was deliberately blocked by God .

And if you will receive it .......and if you don't , Elijah will come at the end of time for the Jews .

Malachi 4 is unequivocally about the end-time , the great and terrible day of the lord is the Day of Judgement , it cannot , unless I am very mistaken , mean anything else .

---------------------------------

Romans 9 is VERY DEFINITELY about the Jews . I have always said on this board that I would gladly do a study of Romans with anyone who was interested .

( The significant word Gentiles precedes the reference to Hosea and Isaiah )

For the record :

Romans 9 v 22 :[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Romans 9 v 23 :And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

The vessels of wrath are the Jews !!

Paul was a Benjaminite , so when he talks of his Israelite brethren , he is talking about the Jews .

For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Who are Israelites; to whom [pertaineth] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service [of God], and the promises;

'Lest I strike the world with a curse ' .

Presumably The Jews read a Scripture to this day which ends with Malachi . Therefore I reckon it still carries a lot of pertinence to them .

The Jews I know , ( admittedly very few) , seem strangely aware of who they are and their special function .

They stand as a witness to Christ , but a witness in the shape of Jonah . I.E. they don't want to witness .

(( in short , they don't believe in Jesus , suffer all sorts of horrible persecutions , and we ( the Gentiles ) say , ' Gosh ! look what happens to you if you reject Jesus ( and order his execution ) ' . ))

In all this they are exactly like Jonah , who had no wish to Witness to Ninevah , but ended up , through God's incredible ingenuity , being the Best Witness ever
( just about ) . (( Read Jonah carefully , bearing in mind that the Ninevites worshipped a god who was half-man half-fish ))

((Also bear in mind that Ninevah represents the World - 3 days journey across , the World in ancient times took 3 years to circumnavigate ))


SO , The Jews are standing back , while all Nations , ( the fulness of the Gentiles ) , go through the door of Redemption , and then they will enter in last . 'The first shall be last and the last first .'

If the Jews don't accept Christ at the end-time , then they will bring about a curse on the World . So far they have been the World's Greatest Blessing .

This is quite a serious threat .
its kind of saying ' everything you have gone through for the World will be undone '

---------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------

The Kingdom of God does not come with observation merely means that you can't sit on Mount Moriah , for example , and watch people building something visible .

The Kingdom of God is in your heart .

31: And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,
neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

On the face of it , this looks conclusive .

BUT 1) Jesus is talking particularly about signs and wonders . A man called Lazarus had been raised from the dead ! ' O unbelieving Generation ' .
Matt 11 : 21 :Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

I think that is what Jesus was really talking about here . Signs and wonders .

However , if you stretch it to Elijah and the 2 witnesses , I am not sure it as conclusive as you think .

We can rephrase it :
If they can't hear Moses , Elijah , ( and the rest of the Prophets ) they won't believe someone coming back from the dead .

The emphasis is on believing Moses and Elijah , which carries the most weight with the unbelieving audience . Effectively Jesus is saying that the Jewish audience put most store by the words of Moses and Elijah , than anything else ( signs and wonders etc ) . In this context , it makes a lot of sense for Elijah to have a seat waiting for him .
Throw in the fact that Elijah never died anyhow , and I am not sure your argument adds up .

-----------------------------------------------
Regarding the stick of Judah and the stick of Ephraim ( Joseph )

Ezekiel 37 v 22 :
and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:


I am not sure we can say that yet !! But it is a very interesting subject

simplebaby:

that is so heretifcal..
you said the jews know who they are and the plan God has for them in Chrsit but they just don't want to evangelize, like jonah?

scriptures please


the jews still look for messiah cuz they misesed him and right now, participate as antichrsits, denying the son, (definition of antichrist as per John)...

Elijah wold have come (for them) had they had ears.

The blindness, simplebaby that you refer to was NOT the jews... it was Israel, the house that went into captivity 700 years earlier. it was their blindness,(Paul quotes Isaiah, the prophet to Irael, not judah) and says they were made blind AT THAT TIME .. Their blindness has caused Christ's first coming mission, (a part of it) to evangelize the world, to receive back unto himself the Lost sheep of the hosue of israel. In Paul's day, the remant was saved simplebaby. Why? Paul identifies himself od the tribe of Benjamin .... the blindness passage Paul talks about came from isaiah, it has NOTHING to do with Jews.... (do the cross reference)

You said the kingdom of God is in your heart. scripture again please?

the kingdom of God is within you, (it isn't some fuzzy feeling, (as in your heart).. it is within you thrut he spirit indwelling you.... if it does nto come with observation, that means the jews await a false hope.. an earthly kingdom, as the pharisees thought. THAT is why Chrsit said to them, (in refernce to their undestanding of an earthly kingdom in jerusalem), lo, if someone says here it is or there it is, (refering to Jerusalme and a kingdom) DON'T BELIEVE THEM for the kingdom does not come with observation.

AGain, kewish fables have been bought by christains to give the jew justification in their interpretation, AGAINST CHRIST'S words...

so far Simple baby, the jewa HAVE BEEN THAT CURSE on the world. .everywhere they go, the curse follows them.. they ahve been thrown out of over 50-100 countries ancounting, Why? Cuz God is NOT with them.. as lng as they refuse the son, they are damned.....

When Chrsit comes back, NO ONE is getting saved. . if one person did, then salvation is NOT by faith. If any one did, then the pattern of the high priest of yom kippurt wold have been broken. When the high priest leaves the temple, any sin not applied to the horns of the altar is NOT forgiven, it is too late. ...

Paul takes old testament passages about israel nd the jews and applies them to the church, I will PROVE this as soon as I have a chance to find the archived file I did a while ago.... jewish expectancy will be fulfilled Simple baby.. but in antichrsit, the one that coms in his own name and they accept him...

All the stuff you said above is all science fiction cuz it is your putting togetht a story line with NO SCRIPTURE to support it....
Chrsit said Elijah CAME.. END OF STORY.. Elijah came, the kingdom established, given to another, NOWHERE does the parable of Chrsit say the kingdom was given to another and then given back in the end....

your concept of first shall be last is wrong because it is out of context to the parable given. to be last doesn't mean coming in 2 minutes after midnight, it means coming in whle ther eis still work being done at 11th hour, not 12th hour plus 2 minutes, (armeggedon)

regardint eh kingdom again, READ the passage AGAIN that Chrsit said that in.. IN CONTEXT of waht the pharisees said... your interpretation is ot of context again,(I am helping you here)

READ THE PASSSAGE AGAIN. Chrsit responded to their concept of the kingdom.. guess waht their concept was? an earthly rule of messiah on a throne in jerusalem, the destruction of their enemies, the world coming to the jews to know of God.. their being the center of the world...
That was waht THEY THOGHT. Chrsit responded and said, your expectation snad belif suystem is wrong, totally wrong. the kingdom doesn't come with observation, that means you will NEVER see an earthly kingdom in the way you expect to see it some day. READ THE SCRIPTURE on this... we can't be painting pictures first, then twist scripture to means something else...

Carmine

simplebaby:

I want to apologize in front ofall the members if it appeared that I said you are heretical...

that was NOT the point I was making....

I was tying the position of jewish expectation sa having life into what you have come to believe.. because christians have bought into alot of it..(leavening)

The question is this, wee the jews right but just off in their timing? the plain answer is no, they were wrong... riming had nothing to do with it....

I was trying to say that the position buying into their expectations. How many christians really think renewed sacrifice sare God's will? a temple in jerusalem is anctified by God, then itis desecrated.. how many believe God is protecting this investment of the earthly kingdom in jerusalem by sending messiah to stop antichrist?

Do we know who antichrsit is? the post below will help in answering some of this.

(I wsa just saying my words as a wake up call to what is typically believed, you didn't say anything diffeent than may prophecy students believe... We need to start to seperate out lies/delusion from truth and we can only do that when we see that God has always hd one plan

REmember Daniel and his 70 weeks? DAniel wsa lter, thru the book, sick to his stomach over the visions he got.. What he saw wsa horror, not fulfilled expectations... What John saw when taken to the wilderness vision in REvelation, was horror.....


I just did a post in the forum I run on this, regarding the newly formed "sanhedrin in Jerusalem".


Here is that post, as it ws given there:

Sanhedrin Launched In Tiberias

A unique ceremony - probably only the second of its kind in the past
1,600 years - is taking place in Tiberias today: The launching of a
Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish-legal tribunal in the Land of Israel.

The Sanhedrin, a religious assembly that convened in one of the Holy
Temple chambers in Jerusalem, comprised 71 sages and existed during
the Tannaitic period, from several decades before the Common Era
until roughly 425 C.E. Details of today's ceremony are still
sketchy, but the organizers' announced their intention to convene 71
rabbis who have received special rabbinic ordination as specified by
Maimonides.

An attempt to reconvene the Sanhedrin was made several centuries ago
in Tzfat. The body in fact ordained such greats as Rabbi Yosef Karo,
the author of the classic Jewish Law code Shulhan Arukh. However,
the opposition of other leading rabbis soon forced the end of the
endeavor.

One of the leaders of today's attempt to revive the Sanhedrin is
Rabbi Yeshai Ba'avad of Beit El. He said that the 71 rabbis "from
across the spectrum received the special ordination, in accordance
with Maimonides' rulings, over the past several months." Rabbi
Ba'avad explained that the membership of the new body is not
permanent: "What is much more crucial is the establishment of this
body. Those who are members of it today will not necessarily be its
members tomorrow. But the goal is to have one rabbinic body in
Jerusalem that will convene monthly and issue rulings on central
issues. This is the need of the generation and of the hour."

Rabbi Yisrael Ariel, who heads the Temple institute in Jerusalem, is
one of the participating rabbis. He told Arutz-7 today, "Whether
this will be the actual Sanhedrin that we await, is a question of
time - just like the establishment of the State; we rejoiced in it,
but we are still awaiting something much more ideal. It's a process.
Today's ceremony is really the continuation of the renewal of the
Ordination process in Israel, which we marked several months ago.
Our Talmudic Sages describe the ten stages of exile of the Sanhedrin
from Jerusalem to other locations, until it ended in Tiberias - and
this is the place where it was foretold that it would be renewed,
and from here it will be relocated to Jerusalem."

Rabbi Ariel said that the rabbis there included many from the entire
spectrum:
"Hareidi, religious-Zionist, Sephardi, Ashkenazi, hassidi, and many
others - such as Rabbi Yoel Schwartz, Rabbi Adin Shteinzaltz, and
many others... We can't expect a great consensus; that's not how
things work here. But sometimes that's how the process goes, from
the bottom up."


NOW, my commentary on this event:
--------------------------------------------

Let's look at the idea of a renewed sanhedrin and what bible
prophecy says of it....

The question regarding the sanhedrin...

This is a vey big subject that brings up the errors of
many in christianity and will cause them to fall for "the lie"


Yes, this has alot to do with bible prophecy ....

BUT

it is not the fulfillment that many think it is....

The error is in believing that God will restore the old covenant to
Israel at a time that christians have been "raptured" from the
scene....

How is this in error?

Well, as a christian, you know the foundations of your
faith... The foundations are what we build our lives around.. in
them, we learn of salvation, of living in this world, living with
each other, and the hope to come, which is the resurrection of the
body....

When ew study Christ's words and read his parables, we find a stark
contradiction of His words with many of the prophecy camps...

Now, typically, if there are questions in our foundation themselves
such as "once saved, always saved" or baptism rites and how to
perform them (infant, sprinkling, immersion, number of times, in
waht name or names, ec..), these are all issues hat groups argue
over, yet, they can justify , in part, their positon thru the texts
themselves....

In prophecy, many forgo their foundations, breaiing every rule and
do not see prophecy as a continuatioin of our fatih... it is God's
plans being worked out but those plans are NOW evident thru what we
term "foundations" or "our common faith, once delivered to the
saints"

Where we are today is the future of someone else's faith from the
past.. (aka.. the old testament saints)


Christ said to us a few things in clarifying the issues we deal with
today.

1. HE said that "one would come in his own name and you would
receive Him"....

Chrsit told us this in response to their rejection of Him. Who was
he speaking to? HE was speaking to those, "in the faith" at that
time, who rejected His ministry.

Now, why did they reject his ministry? Did it have to do with
Paul's words in Romans that they were blind, in part? NO, that is a
totally other issue that contains alot of leavening in, and I would
love to discuss that also in time with you.....

They rejected Christ's ministry because over time, the jews had lost
track of their own foundations... They had become leavened with
untruths within their own religious groups... this caused then to
rely more on expectations that arose out of tradition, than the
bible itself.

One such expectation that came around was the idea that a messiah
wold be born, he wold be a military leader, he would destroy all of
israel's enemies, Israel wold be ruled by messiah from jerusalem,
the kingdom of God would emanate from Jerusalem and from there, the
world would be blessed...

So, they rejected Christ at his coming because He did not fit their
expectation.

So, was their timing off but they wee right? To answer, this, lets
look at point 2 which wa alluded to above.

2. The earthly kingdom

The pharisees had this discussion with Chrsit:

Luke 17
19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made
thee whole.
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of
God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God
cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the
kingdom of God is within you.


What was the context of their question to Christ? They wanted to
know, if you are the messiah cuz you can heal lepers, then one
identifying quality of messiah is that he destroys israel's enemies,
he brings the kingdo of God physically set up in Jerusalem and God
wold forever dwell with his people.

REmember, the pharisees looked for signs to identify messiah. One
of the signs they looked for was the sign of the healed lepers. It
is written in their talmuds that oen of the sign of messiah wsa the
healing of lepers... No jew had EVER been healed of leprosy and
when messiah came, he would be able to heal lepers. So the question
they posed to him was not really out of context to the situation
that had just occured.. Chrsit healed lepers immediately before.....

Waht was Chrsit's response to them?

The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

In other words, he responded to their understanding of the kingdom
and corrected their error. he said, no one will ever be able to
say, lo, hee it is, or lo, there it is. (and be able to locate
geographically, this kingdom of God)

Notice something else.....

in the passage in Luke, if we follow it furthur,

22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye
shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall
not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not
after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under
heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the
Son of man be in his day.


Chrsit tied in the appearing of the son of man with this
kingdom.... IN other words, the kingdom of God is within you
because within you, indwells the holy spirit, this kingdom is not
one taht comes with observation..

But many heresies will come up to say otherwise....

tehey will tell you, see here, see there.. look in this place or
that place....

Just the way lightening shines under heaven, and covers teh whole
sky, (all under the heaven), this is in the way the actual kingdom
will be found.. It won't be at a certain location.... Christ ties
in their first century expectations of error, reveals to them the
truth, then continues to the days of his second coming.

he ties in the revealing of the son of man to his own body,
everywhere at the same time.... (where at his appearing, we will be
just like Him)

1 John 3
1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world
knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall
be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even
as he is pure.

(this is the true doctrine of the manifestation of the sons of
God....)


2 Timothy 4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ,
who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his
kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove,
rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine

Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living AND THE dead. When? AT
his appearing and his kingdom.

Now, this ties in his coming with the great judgement of all....

The jews had some eschatological writings such as the apocalyse of
Baruch, a jew in and around 70 or so AD which spoke of a millenial
kingdom, the expectation that in the fulness of time, God would
offer unto the jews, the manifestation of all their hopes and
dreams.....

This idea of the sanhefrin being formed is in fact, the begining of
the fulfillment of their hopes and dreams which will lead them to
antichrist, not Christ, the true messiah....

This expectation is tied into a temple ion jerusalem and the
restoration....

1. The jews believe taht the next temple must be built by messiah
and since God will not allow anything to happen outside his will, if
they force a temple or circumstances avail that a temple does start
to be built, then it means that messiah HAS TO COME to finish it or
lead in it's building..

This is jewish expectation and the temple mount people think this
way..
(again, remember waht the pharisses thought and remember what Christ
said of the last days and how this kingdom would manifest
itself....... contrary to their image, lo, if one says here it is,
do not believe them.. one will come in His own name and you will
accept him)

2. The jews await the perfect red heifer to be sacrificed as ths is
needed to cleanse the temple.

Again, according to their expectations, there was one heifer
sacrificed from Moses to Ezra, one from Ezra the days of the
macbees, and 7 from the days of the macabees to the destruction of
the temple in 70 AD, for a total of 9. Their sages say that it will
be by the hand of messiah tht the tenth heifer will be sacrificed..
the next one is the 10th one.

it is the high priest that sacrifices the heifer and it is the high
priest that is the 71st person in the sanhedrin. (just as Chrsit had
his 70 plus himself, one)

The identificiton of antichrist is one who comes in His own name..
(not one who comes in Christ's name with the banner of christianity)
but one who comes in His own name, who is received by the jews.

Why is he received? Because he fulfills all the expectations that
Chrsit did not fulfill, (and thus wsa rejected)

Christians have leavened themselve swith partial jewish expectatons.
as if the jews were right but their tinming was off.....

this contradicts Christ's words of how this kingdom makes it's
appearing....

We can get into more of what their expectations were and
why "they"(the jews) failed to see them come to pass.....

Let's switch gears for a second and get into some concepts to
understand first.

The bible defines "antichrist" as those indivduals, (corporately)
that deny the son....

The bible never defined the "assyrian" fore xample as antichrist, WE
add that term in. The assyrian in the days of the house of israel,
(isaiah 10) as the pattern of God's fury, God anger, the "rod of
God's anger" and in our day, this individual will be represented by
a contigency of eastern kings who come up against the harlot woman...

These eastern kings come up against Babylon and the west..

again, the line of demarcation is the euphrates River...

When we study the life of Alexander the great, we find that he
started his push from the lands we now know as the Balkans... and
so to, we find that the western coalitions of nations, (BAbylon is
the western world as oppossed to the estern kings of the bible
represented the parthian nations, medes, persian, etc...)

His push brought Alexander from the Balkans, to the middle esast,
(the river euphrates and Iraw, to the borders of india....)

The tradition of a wounded head came from a legend called "nero
resurrected" (I forget the latin term for it). It was said that
Nero died by a "head wound" by his own hand... but the legend went
that Nero did not die but faked his death and instead, went into the
land of the middle east to re-group and would come with an army of
eastern kings to overthrow Rome and it's empire. The only major war
Rome lost at the height of it's power wsa against these people. The
very general who held back a revolt, (a movie was made called
Spartacus to memorialize this battle), this very general lost to the
parthians of that day. Rome was so fearful of their "arrows)
because they beleived that one day, nero would return to wage war
agaisnt the west and win....

All these things tie in together...

Thee is the head of a western coalition, the western world, there is
the head of the easern kings and there is the high priest of
Jerusalem who comes in His own name and saacrifices the red heifer
and declared messiah by the jews...

MOST bible students identify antichrist as one who comes against the
jews when in fact, antichrist is the one they hail. (by it's very
definition). The rod of God's anger becmes identified as the eastern
kings who come to destroy her and the western world, (under the
guise of islam in our day)... it will be the armies of antichrist
of the jews that are in fact destroyed, who could not hold back the
enemy (as in the days of Jephoshaphat ), and the march of the
eastern kings who are turned over to satan to do the will of God as
REvelation tells us so plainly....

the are 3 players here...
the western world, the eastern kings, the one hailed as messiah to
the jews in jerusalem..

The lie is tht the christians BELIEVE the start of the kingdom of
God starts during the time of tribulaton and when antichrsit comes
up against the jews, God is protecting his own investment in that
kingdom which then continues, without enemies for 100 more years...
it is the belief thta animal sacrifice is restored, even tho the
false messiah is hailed to have sacrificed the heifer that purifies
this temple.. tha some how, the jews are favored for re-establishing
animal sacrifice.
These things are jewish expectation, an expectation they had then,
2000 years ago....

Carmine

I really appreciate your posts Carmine .

There is a lot to answer so I ' ll take the points a bit at a time .

O.K. maybe I am being a bit clumsy here .

Jesus always laid into the Jews and their ruling classes as soon as he laid eyes on them . In fact he is pretty uncompromising , you could say vicious .

For instance the incident where he talks about the widow of Zarephath in Luke early on .

I had always interpreted this as a deliberate policy to cheese them off . Like a Father with a few sons , all of whom he is easy on because they will become shelf-stackers , except for one he is very hard with , (like John Mcenroe's mum ), because he has high expectations of him .

Am I wrong to see it like this ?

regardles of how tough he wsa on them, he never said anything that was a lie or stretch the truth..


They might have had a tough time accepting it as truth, but nevertheless, it was truth and we can't now say, today, he was just being tough on them, the truth is really the tempered version .. they were right but Christ just hid it from them for a season....

Yes it was the Truth alright , but in all the accounts of Jesus' meetings with the Jewish religious leaders , Jesus hides his meaning .

As he says to the disciples , in plain English , 'I speak to them like this so they won't understand , but i explain everything to you . '

He didn't allow them to understand what he was talking about .

Not only did he not allow them , he was deliberately antagonistic with them , as far as I can see . God forgive me if I am wrong here .



In Luke 4 , Jesus declares the Acceptable year of the Lord , and then launches into the Rulers , without their having said anything , and it ends with them trying to kill him .

I read this as Jesus deliberately provoking them to anger and to reject him .
It is taking the blinding one step further . Not only does he cut them out of the kingdom of God by concealing his message from them , he does it hook , line and sinker , by really getting up their noses , and making them hate him personally .
They will never be able to accept his messagebecause he makes sure of that .

Put yourself in the Jews shoes , imagine some wonderful teacher with a class of A grade students , and whenever you are in the class , he talks in riddles and pokes fun at you , I don't think you would like the subject or get good grades !!

So to me it is deliberate , and I stand where I have always stood , the jews were cut out to come in at the end , according to God's Master Plan .

Now I suppose at this point you could say well he had to get them out the picture , new skins for new wine and all that , he need to kill all the old traditionalists to get a new message out .

That may well be true , but in Romans , the way I read it , Paul is saying that the jews were deliberately cut out .

Let's study Romans .

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Regarding the 'lost sheep of Israel' . This is one tricky verse for me .

I can't see that Jesus meant anyone other than the Jews here .

Both times he mentions it , it is in a context of Samaria .
the first time he says don't go into Samaria( go only to the lost sheep of Israel ) , the second time he won't heal the Samarian Woman because it is not part of his ministry , because , as we know he was sent 'to the Jews '.
The Gentiles only started coming in with Paul's conversion . ( But there are exceptions , the Centurion , and the Samaritan Woman by the well . ' )

Samaria was hated by the Jews because they were Jews who had intermarried with Non -Jews , ( put simply ) . Assuming that the scattered tribes of Northern Kingdom have done the same ,i.e. intermarried wherever they went , then Samarians would be identical to the Israelites of the Northern Kingdom , and Jesus said don't minister to them .

But I am making an assumption here .

So l'm assuming you're talking about just jewish leaders here and not the jewish people as a whole...Because it sounds like you're making a general reference.

The schism in Jewry runs through the bone and to the marrow .
Jesus said make sure your righteousness surpasses that of the religious teachers , implying they had some level of righteousness , and he told people to obey what they commanded , but not to behave like them . So in a sense he endorsed the religious leadership to the ordinary people .
Luke 16 seems written specifically for the Jews , and in anticipation of their role as moneymen . It looks to me like Jesus is given them guidelines for the age of the Gentiles . He seems to be saying , ' when you are no longer the favoured steward , be very clever with money ..........
Rather pertinent advice methinks .


In Galatians 2, there is an extraordinary revelation . Peter , James , and John (the beloved disciple ) ALL slip back into Judaistic conformity , under peer pressure .
Even Barnabas , though under Paul's direct supervision and tutelage ,almost gets conned .
Mark 13 v 22 :For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if [it were] possible, even the elect.


Makes you think

IF we study the actual pasage you speak of simplebaby, (the seat of Moses passage), what it actually says , 9when reading it literally), is obey what that seat represents in commandments, in other words, obey Moses, whose seat they sit on, don't obey them. They had many laws added to Moses which they preache3d. Chrsit also said that they shut up heaven. Why would Christ say they shut up heaven then say listen to those who shut u heaven?

The verse is saying be obedient toal lthe seat of Moses represents but don't do as those who sit in it do, (and tell you to do)

I have some archive on this tht I can share if I fnd it and if you want to see it that goes into this convincingly thur languages...

Carmine

I think you are misunderstanding me Carmine .

While the passage is not easy , it is patently clear that the phaRISEES WERE TEACHING SOMETHING RIGHT , OR ELSE JESUS WOULD NOT HAVE TOLD HIS Disciples to pay it any heed .

separating the Old order from the new was no easy task since the old order has a foundation in the new .

Anyhow , Miki asked a question about the religious leaders and the ordinary people .

The point is is that it is not easy to disconnect the two .

Throughout Acts we see the Apostles teaching in synagogues on the Sabbath .

The tension is there throughout , and as long as people who had seen Jesus' miracles went to the synagogue ( as did Jesus ) on a Sabbath to worship , the possibility of gravitating back to Judaistic Conformity remained .

Matthew 17:11:And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.

Truly Elias will come again and the word of God is to be taken literally. They will be in sac clothes and the entire world will see them.

And when they appear, what will happen in the world according to the verse above "..and restore all things"? A world wide revival.

Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the LORD of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the LORD. Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you (Zech 8:22-23).

This is the period of the rapture watch.

The rapture watch period

Dstrykr
My Webpage

The Jewish leaders at the time of Christ were not Jews. They were edomites of Esau and they were practicing Kabala witchcraft (traditions of men) also know as the heremtic tradition.

Edomites
When Edom was conquered by the Babylonians in the sixth century BCE, large numbers of the Edomites were pushed out of their country by the Nabataeans. They crossed the Wadi Arabah and settled in southernmost Palestine, where they were Judaized and became known as Idumeans. The Edomites were pinched between invading Babylonians and the Nabataeans, which lived to their south. Since those who migrated were forced to become Judaized, they were accepted as Idumeans, with reservations.

Jesus told His disciples

Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees. (Matthew 16:6).

These leaders were called serpents, generation of vipers, of their father the devil, of the serpent seed identified in the Bible (see Genesis 3:14-15).

If you understood Kabala, it uses ritual murders (blood letting) to call upon the power of satan and that is how Jesus died. A ritual murder by:

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. (Revelation 2:9)

How do we know they weren't of the line of Jacob?

Because all of Israel (Jacob) shall be saved and Jesus told the Jewish leaders, they could not go where He was going (heaven).

Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come (John 8:21).

And so all Israel (Jacob) shall be saved (Romans 11:26).

You can check out the bloodlines in the Bible on my website at
The Canaanites to be cut off. Scroll down to "where did it come from

Esau to be cut off

Dstrykr
My Webpage

kabbala was invented in the 12th century .

are you saying that if you are not Jewish you are a Satanist ?
you appear to be .

Kabala (Kabbalah) is known as the ancient jewish mystism.
Cabala, Kabala, Kabbalah

From the time of the Jewsish exile to Babylon

Torah or the Talmud

The word Qabbalah, Kabal, Kabbalah, Cabala, Cabbala or Cabbalah (all from Qabbalah) stems from the Hebrew word 'Qibel' which means "to receive by oral tradition (the traditions of man). It is also known as the Hermetic Tradtion. This is why Jesus was angry about the Jewish leaders' TRADITIONS:

Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? (Matthew 15:3).

Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. (Matthew 15:6)

For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders (Mark 7:3)

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders (Mark 7:5)

For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men...Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition. (Mark 7:8-9)

Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers (1 Peter 1:18).

I didn't mean to imply that only the Jews are saved.



Japheth is the father of the Gentiles.

God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem"
(Genesis 9:27)

Blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL THE FULNESS OF THE GENTILES BE COME IN” (Romans 11:25).

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the gentiles, to take out of them a people for His name (Acts 15:14-16).

The freemasons, satanist and wiccans practice it today and all their little sub-organizations; but their lower level recruits are clueless. It honors the god of forces (magic)(Daniel), satan himself.

Just as we Christians and those of Jacob are predestined, so are those of the serpent seed. There's much more scripture that supports the serpent seed and the line of Esau to be cut off.

So unless your righteousness exceed these people......that's what Jesus was saying.

DStrykr
My Webpage

The tribulation witnesses are here already; remember, Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever. And the Lord our God Almighty has never taken anyone out of his or her 'time-zone' to do the work of the Lord.
To think it is Enoch or Elijah or Moses is just assumption on our part. Before the Messiah came, no one knew the name of the Lamb of God, but His Holy name was always encoded between the lines of Scripture before the Lord formed the earth. Remember, the witnesses -after they are through with their ministry are over powered by the beast, and then they are killed. When Elijah and Moses appeared in what we called the transfiguration they were already in their 'glorified state' proof, they are unable to die. And the Word tells us we are to die once, then face judgment, -so it couldn't be Moses!
The witnesses will be revealed through the scroll -Daniel was told to seal until the time of the end. And that time is now! Praise the Holy Lamb of God!
The reason this scroll is to be released is the fact as these new prophecies are given to the church, as they come to pass, and as the Holy Spirit works miracles through these men, the bride of Christ Jesus will understand that these men whom the Holy Spirit used to open the scroll, are sent of God!
Very soon children of the Most High, Jesus -the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world will come to take His Bride home. So you who read this, if you haven't asked Jesus to forgive you for your sins, do so now! For our God Almighty wishes none would be left behind.
Thus Saith The Lord!

It's the day of the LORD'S wrath that these two start. They will close up heaven so that no rain falls. They will turn all of the oceans to blood. They will turn all of the rivers lakes streams levies canals aquaducts bottles cans and wells to blood. They will whistle for the locusts bettles bees hornets dog packs wild beasts ect. The LORD and HIS saints will finish it after the witnesses are killed and after HE returns.


By faith in HIM alone
a son of man

Amen Son of Man

It is also the transition from the world to the Lord's Kingdom. Tearing down and destroying this man made world for the Kingdom to come.