1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I have long tried to reconcile scriptures like these, and it tends to be a burden to me. I am sure that is the case with a lot of folks.

I know I am not a "sinner" anymore. But I also know I sin. I think there has to be a balance to this sin equation.(for want of a better word for it)

This is the same apostle speaking two apparently contradictory words. But there are other such cases in the word. If the bible itself has seeming contradictions, no wonder those who speak from the eternal Spirit have issues to deal with.

I am sure that the apparent contradictions have a way of being sorted out by taking the whole council of the word into consideration. I personally find more comfort in 1 John 1:9 than I do in 1 John 3:9, for it encomapasses my present reality most completely with evident and endless compassion from the very God who also said, Mat 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Mat 18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

May God be glorified in our hearts today!

Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom [be] glory for ever and ever. Amen.

its not contradictory.
whats confusing about it???

I'll be sure to get my glasses checked. If that don't work, I'll go to a reading comprehension class.

let me ask you this...
who do you think was born of God?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Me

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

I think this particular version of the bible puts it into a more understandable format

Rom 6:1 What should we say then? Should we continue to sin so that God's kindness will increase?
Rom 6:2 That's unthinkable! As far as sin is concerned, we have died. So how can we still live under sin's influence?
Rom 6:3 Don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 When we were baptized into his death, we were placed into the tomb with him. As Christ was brought back from death to life by the glorious power of the Father, so we, too, should live a new kind of life.
Rom 6:5 If we've become united with him in a death like his, certainly we will also be united with him when we come back to life as he did.
Rom 6:6 We know that the person we used to be was crucified with him to put an end to sin in our bodies. Because of this we are no longer slaves to sin.
Rom 6:7 The person who has died has been freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 If we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.
Rom 6:9 We know that Christ, who was brought back to life, will never die again. Death no longer has any power over him.
Rom 6:10 When he died, he died once and for all to sin's power. But now he lives, and he lives for God.
Rom 6:11 So consider yourselves dead to sin's power but living for God in the power Christ Jesus gives you.
Rom 6:12 Therefore, never let sin rule your physical body so that you obey its desires.
Rom 6:13 Never offer any part of your body to sin's power. No part of your body should ever be used to do any ungodly thing. Instead, offer yourselves to God as people who have come back from death and are now alive. Offer all the parts of your body to God. Use them to do everything that God approves of.
Rom 6:14 Certainly, sin shouldn't have power over you because you're not controlled by laws, but by God's favor.
Rom 6:15 Then what is the implication? Should we sin because we are not controlled by laws but by God's favor? That's unthinkable!
Rom 6:16 Don't you know that if you offer to be someone's slave, you must obey that master? Either your master is sin, or your master is obedience. Letting sin be your master leads to death. Letting obedience be your master leads to God's approval.
Rom 6:17 You were slaves to sin. But I thank God that you have become wholeheartedly obedient to the teachings which you were given.
Rom 6:18 Freed from sin, you were made slaves who do what God approves of.
Rom 6:19 I'm speaking in a human way because of the weakness of your corrupt nature. Clearly, you once offered all the parts of your body as slaves to sexual perversion and disobedience. This led you to live disobedient lives. Now, in the same way, offer all the parts of your body as slaves that do what God approves of. This leads you to live holy lives.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from doing what God approves of.
Rom 6:21 What did you gain by doing those things? You're ashamed of what you used to do because it ended in death.
Rom 6:22 Now you have been freed from sin and have become God's slaves. This results in a holy life and, finally, in everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 The payment for sin is death, but the gift that God freely gives is everlasting life found in Christ Jesus our Lord.

wrong...sorry.
You can be "born again" spiritually but you are not "born of God" because you will still sin.
I can explain these to you if you have a second.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


the first one is reference to Jesus Christ.
Read 1Jo 3:8 - the one "manifested" is Jesus Christ.

the second one is referring to us (humans). We are born sinners.

No "contradiction."

Lets break this down a little

1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

How do we doeth righteousness?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.


1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

How does this happen?

For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Jesus Christ is of incorruptble seed but born of a woman. We are of corruptble seed
born of a woman.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

I left out one little thing,
1Jo 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

It is true that we are born of a corruptble nature but we are perfectly capable of loving and forgiving one another.

Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Act 7:57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
Act 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

I wonder what would of became of Saul had not Stephen forgave them all.

All righty then!

I have read all your scriptures and this is what I get out of it....

I was born with the inherited trait to sin. When I got old enough to understand that and choose, I chose Christ. So, He accepted me and forgave past sins and POOF! the Holy Spirit moved in and now I have the strength not to sin. WhenI am perfectly close to Him, or He is living through me and I am dead to self, or however you want to say it, then I can not sin because He can not sin. I am dead to sin.

BUT, when I take control of my own life I return to old habits and tendencies and am apt to sin.

Are you saying then, that I have the ability and the right not to sin unless I choose to ignore Jesus in my life?

We are of corruptable seed (Adam) and children of satan, we make a choice which is accounted to us as righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus is our example of how to live, but because He was born of incorruptable seed He is not capable of sin, we are and we will be until He perfects His saints. But what we are capable of doing is Loving and Forgiving one another. Sin will continue to become less and less attractive as our mind is renewed and we realize our flesh died at the cross with Jesus. It is like a guy who gets out of prision after 30 years it takes a while for him to start acting like a free man.

Replying to bold type...

I beg to differ...

Jesus is not a "whosoever." He is "The One." Jesus spoke many things to the "whosoevers" of the world...in other words He spoke to everybody. We are all whosoevers. Sure, Christ was manifested for the express intent of "destroying the works of the devil." But that does not preclude us whosoevers who are the benefactors of that initiative of God.

When Jesus speaks to whosoever He is speaking to anyone who will listen and obey...

Luk 6:47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: Luk 6:48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.


I do not think your theology is correct. Nice try but no cigar.

In reply to bold type

Gosh you have a viewpoint which amazes me...

We are "new man" material....the new man is renewed...We have a full salvation in our spirit and a continuing unfolding salvation as our minds are renewed, (sanctification) and a lasting salvation of the body when the corruption puts on incorruption. (Ressurection)

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My bible says we are of incorruptible seed...Born again by the word of God. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

This is wrong...

"He was born of incorruptable seed He is not capable of sin,"

He was capapble of sin...he had to be in order to be tested. The Holy Spirit even led Him into the wilderness after the Spirit descended on Him like a dove...led Him to the wilderness to be tempted...That is why the devil tempted...because there was a chance he could get Jesus to defer to him.

Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. How can you be tempted if you cannot sin?

Besides that,

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.

ha ha..pray on it

No your bible says incorruptible, not incorruptible seed.

you wrote:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

My bible says we are of incorruptible seed...Born again by the word of God. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

What is the Word of God?
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Christ existed before the creation, He is not a created creature, we are. His flesh had no sin in it, He is not capable of sin.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1Jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

This is what I understood as well. The "whosoever" was always multiple not a word used for "guess who it is".

Christ had to be able to sin to be tested and He knows what we go through because He was tempted in everything but over came all.

I have to admit, I have never heard of the other interpretation....it is something to think about. But, in the end, like when I begin to believe there will be no rapture as some preach, I can not explain away such scriptures as "then we sho are living will be caught up with Him and taken..."

And I can not get past the fact here that Jesus was perfect in that He did not sin. That is not saying He could not sin. Nothing to being a Savior if it is automatic, is there? No overcoming anything. No temptation....

It does give the rest of the out of saying "well Jesus didn't do it because He was not able to, but we are different." If we are a changed person (totall covered by Him), we are different as well, born of incorruptable seed and not of this world. The opportunity to sin is there just as it was with Him, but totally able not to sin if perfectly covered by the only one who had the strength to choose not to.

leia

Mazinaw

This is a perfect time for this topic. We are about to celebrate Christmas, the birth of Christ. Christ is born of God not david. His flesh was not created by the seed of man, but of the Holy Spirit. Our flesh is not born of the Holy Spirit it is born of man, therefore a corrupt nature. Sin did not kill Jesus, He laid His life down by His choice. It is true that we are born of God in the sense our spirit is regenerated when we become born again and God see's no sin in us through Christ, without Christ the law does its job and exposes sin for what it is. Just because Jesus was tempted why do you assume that means He could have sinned? Everything in the bible points to His perfection. The only requirment for the person to be able to destroy the Law of sin and death was to be born of a woman, God fulfilled that by the conception of Jesus in mary by the Holy Spirit.

Job 14:1 Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble.
Job 14:2 He cometh forth like a flower, and is cut down: he fleeth also as a shadow, and continueth not.
Job 14:3 And dost thou open thine eyes upon such an one, and bringest me into judgment with thee?
Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.
Job 14:5 Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:6 Turn from him, that he may rest, till he shall accomplish, as an hireling, his day.
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 14:16 For now thou numberest my steps: dost thou not watch over my sin?
Job 14:17 My transgression is sealed up in a bag, and thou sewest up mine iniquity.
Job 14:18 And surely the mountain falling cometh to nought, and the rock is removed out of his place.
Job 14:19 The waters wear the stones: thou washest away the things which grow out of the dust of the earth; and thou destroyest the hope of man.
Job 14:20 Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away.
Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
Job 14:22 But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.

Job 25:1 Then answered Bildad the Shuhite, and said,
Job 25:2 Dominion and fear are with him, he maketh peace in his high places.
Job 25:3 Is there any number of his armies? and upon whom doth not his light arise?
Job 25:4 How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman?
Job 25:5 Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight.
Job 25:6 How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?

HOPE in Christ Jesus....
all of my days I HOPE in CHRIST JESUS, lead me beside still waters...rest in storms delivered through your grace and mercy

deliver me from temptation
Accept my offerings of charity grounded in love and obediance
I will Honor your HOLY NAME JESUS
Keep me in the shadow of your wings
Keep me grounded in your Truth
Your grace is sufficient...but lead me not to boasting or self-righteousness

Where the Spirit of the LORD is there is freedom....keep us grounded dear Jesus, let not your sheep go astray, but you hold us with your LOVE and Mercy and your LOVE transcends over all the Heavens and Earth...keep us humble in receiving and giving and you will not give us more than we can handle...for you are ALL POWERFUL and ALL KNOWING...we take comfort in you and your guiding LIGHT.

I see where you are coming from now!!!!!

I think we are saying the same thing but you may say no....

I am saying that Jesus had every right to sin and chose not to. You are saying that He could not do anything else. You know....I hope someday we can communicate without words 'casue words get in the way.

Of course He could not sin. He had every knowledge of what was to come because He came from there. But for the glory of what was set before Him he endured the cross (I agree He GAVE His life, no one took it....I sang this great song in church one time that sums up that whole thought....called "He Grew the Tree") and was perfect in the sight of man and the Father.

The bible says He understands all the temptations that we go through because He was tempted by everything. But He chose not to. He could do nothing else but choose not to....for the glory of what was set before Him. He understood it all, from forever to forever, and could do nothing else but perfection. But I believe it was HIS FREE WILL to choose not to sin. That is why we do not HAVE to sin if He covers us...He has that knowledge and strength becasue of that knowledge, we do not. Our faith is small and our eyes have not seen.

leia

Leia

I love you you are an insiration to us all to stay in that place of awe and wonderment of the AWSOME God we serve

You know, debate is fine, but we don't fast talk here. We had just gotten rid of all that abuse, please remember that the written word can get very haughty.

This is not like other threads, which is the reason gentle people can be one here when such as I can not go to the others. Short and quippy negitaves such as "wrong, sorry", as uncalled for. Like in the South when people think they can say sharp words such as "she is such a mess" as long as you say "bless her heart" aloing with it....the sorry does not disguise that quip.

Secondly, if you have something to say, it would be helpful to back up your scripture with your interrpretation of it, that is what debate is all about. Endless repetition is not helpful. I have to summorise your stuff and guess at what you are trying to get at to even know what you are trying to say.

I would like to enter into this "debate" but the sacrasim is really getting out of hand.

leia

I reread this thread to make sure I understood what each one was trying to get at and there it is again!!!!!

Do you think this is helpful? Where is the holy Spirit in you to teach when you show such hatred for one another? MY bible as if our is not. Really....

We are splitting hairs here. We become new creatures after we are saved adn can stay that way to the extent we wish to. We are incorruptable scripture says because we allow Jesus the freedom to live His life through us. I personally love that because Satan hates having Jesus on earth. He hated it then adn he hates it now. But when I allow Jesus to use my body for His vessel, Jesus lives here that much more. No wonder Satan hates Christians. We allow Jesus to live here and Satan thinks this place is his.

Once Jesus is living through us and we are SOMA alone, we ca not sin anymore than He could because He IS us. And He COULD sin in that He has the right to choose to sin and the opportunity and was given the opportunity (tempted), but He CAN NOT for the glory he KNEW was before Him.

If I tell my children I will give you this great "thing" (because that is about as much as we know about heaven) if you are good for one whole day....perhaps they would and perhaps they would not.

But if I show them the biggest candy they have ever seen, that candy is going to be in front of their eyes, they can PICTURE it, every time they have the temptation before them and the desire will either 1)hit their heart and they will make a decission or 2) the desire will never get that foothold. Wether it is one of two depends on how big that candy is. And you know Jesus had to know how great His kingship, being the Sson of the Father, His place in heaven...all that could not even make the desire manifst in Him. He could not sin becasue He knew what was before Him, but only becasue He thought it was great.

Wonderful personality our Lord. Satan had it made too.....not so great a personality for heavens sake. he didn't think much of that "candy bar" and it wasn't much of a deterent.

If I am not getting this or am being vague or am totally off as far as your reconing of the situation, please let me know. I would like to get to the heart of the matter. But let us remember that we both have hearts.

leia

Leia

The quote you are reffering to is not mine, look back into this thread and see who wrote this. I reffered to it to debate it.

thank you, my appologies. I will look back. Is my assessment correct to what you are trying to say or am I off base? I am really trying to understand you point of view.

huh? we were talking about this a couple of nights ago and we were online. look at the time stamps. I did back it up with scripture and asked him to reread the verse before where it referred to Jesus.
I did say "i can explain these if you have a second" but we were typing late at night that i didn't wanna keep him up.

i'm not reading sarcasm off my response but maybe i need to start adding smilies to show that its all in good.

How can this be said when being born again spiritually IS being born of God? That is scripture and red letter at that.


Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Somehow I get the feeling that you and rtkiii66 are leading me on with some sort of circular talk.

with all do respect, because Leia got on me.
yes being born again is one thing. It is in the spiritual sense.

"Born of the Spirit" and "born of God" are two different things.

Read rtkiii66's responses...he talked about it in detail.
I can break it down differently if you want to.
Born of God and Born of the Spirit are two different things. Holy Spirit and God the Father are not the same.

You are obviously not into the trinity. To me There is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. All as God. The Father is separate from the Son and the Spirit is of Christ.

Eph 2:18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Jesus is the only way to the father. The word in Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

i knew that is where the confusion was.
i do believe in the trinity.

so let me ask you this...in the physical sense.
we are talking about physical ok.
you have a father. picture your dad. ok
you have the traits of your dad. All men sin. When your parents had you, the ability to sin was passed to you. That is why you can sin.
We ALL SIN because that olson nature was passed to us by our parents (but father really cuz this is going into the Adam's seed discussion).

So the thing now is....do you believe Jesus ever sinned?

be patient with me and let me explain this and you can accept or reject it but bare with me.

[quote=c-los medrano,Dec 3 2005, 08:15 PM][quote=Mazinaw,Dec 3 2005, 10:08 i knew that is where the confusion was.
i do believe in the trinity.

so let me ask you this...in the physical sense.
we are talking about physical ok.
you have a father. picture your dad. ok
you have the traits of your dad. All men sin. When your parents had you, the ability to sin was passed to you. That is why you can sin.
We ALL SIN because that olson nature was passed to us by our parents (but father really cuz this is going into the Adam's seed discussion).

So the thing now is....do you believe Jesus ever sinned?

be patient with me and let me explain this and you can accept or reject it but bare with me.
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Jesus never sinned and you must be a canadian who else would know Olsen?

Jesus NEVER sinned because he was never created with that corruptible seed of man.
God's seed is incorruptible. The ability to sin was not passed to Jesus Christ.
so now.

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


oh...and yeah I'm canadian.

Why dry grin? Being Canuck is good. PS I think you have some part in this scripture...

1Co 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

The incorruptible seed is the word of God and Jesus is the word. But he was born through man to be man and in that inheritance is the sin nature which was meant to be subjugated in order that he fulfill the law. The law had to be fullfilled in every jot and tittle. It had to be fullfilled by a man.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

That is why on the cross Jesus said "It is finished. John 19:30

"Mary supplied the womb for Jesus Christ, and nourished His body, but her sin blood (since she was from the seed of Adam) was not passed on to Him. It was not the sperm of a man, but the Holy Spirit of God who supplied the "seed" for Jesus‚ conception, and the divine blood for His body. God provided a way for Jesus to have a human body, but His blood came from God. He was the God-Man. He was begotten of God. "Begotten" does not mean that God had a consort (a female) in order to produce a Son. It was a supernatural act of the Holy Spirit, as we said before."



i found this online that breaks it down a little more so if we still don't see eye to eye on this then i am sorry.

You talking about Jesus being the Word is true but Jesus FLESH body was not made using Adams seed. Adam's seed possess' sin.
If the Word is perfect then the body has to be perfect.
Jesus was not made of Adam's seed, that is why Jesus could not sin.

I have been advised of a certain level of impropriety on my part in having closed this topic. In the interest of continued good will I am reintroducing the topic for those parties who may find issues worthy of continued spiritual exploration. I have deleted the last post I made here in favour of open debate. My apologies to those affected. The thread was started by me and I had a hand on the trigger as a moderator. I apologize for any slurs which have have been issued in so doing. May we commune once again as equals in the quest for truth....

To anyone who would like a brief on my moderation skills, they are pretty much unpaid on the job training. Shekel moderates the moderators, so we have a dual strategic obedience factor. Like in the army where one is subject to the rules of the military and at the same time subject to the rules of the country of residence. Shekel is a humble man and I gladly come under his tutelage. I was asked if I would like to attempt this level of service and after prayer have come to believe it is something I am supposed to do. Likely that is an iron sharpens iron thing.

The prerequisite to moderate is set by the need to conform to certain aspects of the faith of the Christ we serve as detailed elsewhere in the forum. I joined as "whosoever" on July 28th 2005 and have been prolific enough. I would have accumulted just under 2000 posts by now if I had remained as "whosoever."

I realize that it is hard to be bold for the Lord and to moderate with fervor as well, as the standard of excellence is hard in either case, and much more so when wearing two hats. I think I have discovered why the senior moderators post infrequently.

2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them]; 2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Maz

This speaks directly to the work Christ has done and continues to do in you. The moderators on this forum are in a leadership position and set an example. This sets a wonderful example of the integrity of this forum and its moderators. Thank you and all the moderators for your time and love watching over this forum.

Rtkiii66 (Rich)

In appreciation of your candor....

Since we are on the topic of sin or not to sin....this verse might bring some of us to a place where we might find ourselves kneeling over the porcelain god!!!!

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


The question I have: Is this the same as the Great White Thrown Judgment?

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Is this just for the jews? Are the gentiles sins forgiven and not forgotten?

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

So what gives? is 2cor 5:10 speaking to unrepented sin?

Hmmmmmmmmm.................



Yes I have visited the ole porcelain one myself many times....but that was a while back mind you!! Now who is going to hold back my hair!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TO SIN OR NOT TO SIN.............THAT IS THE QUESTION!! This is an interesting thread. God says.......In the beginning 'ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL!'

Amen?

We all know we are not supposed to sin, but we do. My original post reflects that. I can be forgiven (by the word of God) but yet it is supposed to be "impossible to sin." (also by the word of God)

1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I have long tried to reconcile scriptures like these, and it tends to be a burden to me. I am sure that is the case with a lot of folks.

I am not ready to accept I can be born again spiritually but not of God or whatever..

I think what the verse of 1 John 3:9 is saying is that we do not "habitually and willingly" sin. We are easily led astray. Hebrews says,

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

I am new at this forum,also new to internet communication so please forgive me if this reply seems crude. I have been following your sin or not sin thread since it started, the one part of the bible I have not seen talked about is Romans chapter 7 (the second half) this may help clear up some of the paradoxs you are dealing with it did for me. It seems we are at war not only with satan and his forces but also with ourselves.

Okay.

Perhaps this question is closely related to FAITH ALONE (not by works) doctorine???? That has been on my heart recently, so forgive me if I'm putting my own "issues" on you guys- but.... If Christ saves us, in my opinon (after much meditation...) I think we are saved- period. If we aren't and therefore we can lose our salvation- doesn't that open pandoras box? Doesn't that leave room for the salvation by works arguement? If we can in fact lose our salvation- what exactly does that mean for us believers? What exactly do we have to do to lose our place in the kingdom? Sin 3 times instead of 2? Deny Christ (like Peter?)? Commit suicide?

In scripture, God made a covenant with Abraham promising that He would:
1. Make him a great nation.
2. Through Abraham's seed (collective SINGULAR) all nations would be blessed.
3. dwell/reside with His people.

During the night, as God promised this- if you can recall, Abraham saw the Lord as a Consuming Fire pass through the split animal, making a covenant with him. I believe that this convenant was UNI-LATERAL. Meaning:
Abraham did not go through the path like God did, so Abraham had no part to play in the covenant... no matter what he did, he couldn't lose God's promise.
Covenant basically means- cut in two. God was saying, if I break my promise, may I fall dead and in two like the animal here.

The seed here is of course Abraham's SEED. Through Abraham's seed- (again... collective SINGULAR) all nations will be blessed. Jesus was Araham's seed. Not only because God promised that the Messiah would be the seed of Abraham but also because the egg had to come from somewhere... and that was of course of from Mary- a decendent of David, a decendent of the Patriarchs.

God promised that He would dwell with His people. Christ dwells within us. Glory to God!!! He keeps His promises!!!!

So, back to sinning and salvation....
Is it not finished? Is not the new covenant better than the old?
1Jo 3:9
If we are born again- no sin will be found in us. Connecting it back to the original question- Does God not find sin in us because He is looking through blood of Jesus?

I don't think that Paul would be addressing the Romans' sinfulness if they weren't sinning- habitually. I think perhaps they were using grace as a "free pass". "GOD FORBID." Again, how do we reconcile Romans with James... Peter with John/James?????

In response to 1Jo 3:9
We cannot go on sinning.

But in my experience, we all do.

That is why Jesus promises to complete the work in us. That says to me that salvation is an ongoing process. We eventually will be made perfect. We eventually will stop sinning. As we walk, we are trained in rightousness. We don't confess Christ and quit all bad habits (boy I sure wish it worked that way).

Paul had a thorn. I don't know if the thorn was a physical ailment or if it was a particular sin that he fought. But God promised Paul (and all readers) that His grace is sufficient.
1. God gives us grace by being faithful to forgive.
2. God gives us more grace to be able to overcome situations and attacks as our battles become harder and harder. He gives us bigger and wider ways of escape.

I'm sorry if I am rambling... I am just thinking out loud here. I'm not sure if I answered any questions, but I thought I'd add my two cents.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I still struggle with the paradox in this..born again but evil is present, being in captivity to the law of sin...

But this is the ultimate...

So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I think a key is that although we are born again, we are still part old man along with the new man. The old man is fleshly and carnal.....still secumbs to lust of the flesh...there is a definite war going on within us. Salvation is triune...Spirit first, soul (mind) next in a process called sanctification, and finally the body at the resurrection...my best guess so far...

Maz

BTW, Greetings Jim! Thanks for joining us!

Peace be with you all,

Mazinaw, why do you struggle with this? We shall all continue to sin until we die. Ever since I accepted Christ into my life I have not suddenly become sinless. If I said that I would be a hypocrite. Rather, Christ convicts my heart when I have sinned and I repent for I believe Christ is always right. And I am happy that he points out my transgressions, that I am happy when my spirit is convicted for then I kneel and ask for forgiveness and the Lord does.

The Lord will not lead you off a cliff, he will not lead you down a dead end. When anyone sins know that you have sinned but know that Christ will forgive you. Do not even worry of your future sins in your life either because God already knows how many times you will sin and is prepare to forgive you for each one. Knowing this rejoice in the saving grace of Christ and praise his name in each moment. Then you will find sin becomes less in your life until that day comes.

Amen.


Robert

A well rounded word. I am not trying to say by posting my rhetorical questions that I am not of faith or presence of mind, but I am trying to stimulate open dialogue in order that others may be edified.

I don't pretend to be something l'm not either....

....This Romans 7 thing reminds me of the new wine in the new old wine skin?...I've been looking to discuss.

Try this.

Do a search for every word "sinner" in the NT.

Do a search for every word "Saint" in the NT.

Study the context of each.

Each one of us is either a Saint, or a sinner. No fence straddling. No third options.

In the NT, Saints and sinners are contrasted. As if they are opposites.




My point is: Saints are living lives that are characterized by Godliness, Faith, Righteousness.

Sinners are living lives that are characterized by sin, faithlessness, un-godly behavior.

************
What does Godly mean? God-like.

***********

J. Vernon McGee has said:
The Prodigal Son may go to the pig-pen, but, if he's a Child of God, he won't be happy in the pig-pen, and he'll want to move else-where.

***************

My faith is not Perfect. That's sin.
I love the Lord, but I don't love Him as I should. That's sin.
None of us love our Lord (and our neighbors) as we should. That's sin.
My obedience to the Word is not Perfect. That's sin.

But, for the most part, my life is characterized by Faith, Godly Love and Behavior, Righteousness, etc.

That's good evidence that : I'm a Saint, (not a sinner).

O, Yea!!!!!!!

dennis manning

I have two people in me.

Oh goodness! Two people, Miki? Who are they?

Me too, Mikki.

sojourner