Just noticed in the poll on the rapture that at present their are thirteen "votes" for no rapture. Now what is that supposed to mean?

If you believe in the resurrection it is incumbent upon you to believe in the rapture, for the two events happen simulateously. To not believe in the resurrection is to disbelieve the works of God. We got to believe both events are real, or our bible is nothing more than a prize in a cracker jack box.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Resurrection first for the dead saints...rapture next and nearly instantly)

1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. 1Co 15:21 For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead. 1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 1Co 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 1Co 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.

Ahhhhh...every Christian believes that the dead will rise again through the resurrection of the firstfruits, I think the problem might be the living being taken up. As in we are in our bodies and then taken up without going through the I am dead process. I'm just guessing, because that is the debate that rages in my area.

When they explain it to me, it makes sense. But I am still trying to get over the "then we that are still alive will be taken up..." scripture and the "two will be walking and one will stay and the other taken" scripture.

Sooooo....I didn't vote. I just haven't received enough confirmation to be secure with myself. Maybe because I am not afraid to die and going before death would be cool so it doesn't matter enough to me.

leia

Ok, I think this is pretty well hashed out in another thread (but we can re-hash it if you want I don't mind!) but since I am one who said "no rapture" I'll expound.

For the sake of that poll, I said no rapture because I took it to be asking if we believe in a rapture of the righteous before the second coming. I don't.

I DO definitely believe in the rapture but I believe that it IS the second coming and not at all secret.

As to this...


...the bible says that every eye will see and every ear will hear, the dead in Christ will ascend first and then those who are still alive and are saved will rise in the air to meet him. Therefore, some will be left on the earth... those some being the lost.

But I do not believe in a "second chance" for them. NOW is that second chance. By the time one is taken and one is left all decisions have been made as to who will reign with the Lord and who will ultimately be destroyed and forgotten forever and ever.. or with no hope of future redemption. These will be consumed in a holy cleansing fire and it will be as if they never were.


In short, there will be a rapture, just not a secret rapture and that is what I felt the poll was regarding.

I find that a lot. Many people when they hear the Word "rapture" think it is talking about "pre-tribulation rapture only" This doctrine is not held by all people who believe in rapture.

I believe that the rapture will happen at the Second Coming of the Messiah. And that those who believe Jesus and are still alive at the time of the Second Coming will be changed in an instant and be caught up to meet him upon His return.

The scripture is clear that some Christians will be alive upon The Messiah's return. Maybe within the twinkling of an eye when their bodies will change they will technically die? Maybe that is the block that causes some to believe that rapture is not biblical the belief that everyone must die once before they enter into eternity?

Then again the Bible tells of two kinds of death. Physical and the other dying that relate to a spiritual dying that happens before one is born again.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

If I WAS going to go with the rapture of the living bodied Christians either before or during the Lord's appearance....I would say at this time that it is my thinking it will be end of decission making time as well. Reason being....after that, there is no more faith. I mean, if every eye will see Him there is then knowledge not faith, right?

And the door to heaven is through FAITH in Jesus which means BEFORE He is seen.

leia

In the bold type above....

Jesus ministered to His people..."The Jews." He knew they did not believe who he was (the ones who set the policy in religious circles) Luk 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two [men] in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. There is a principal in scripture of knowing to whom Jesus spoke. He speaks to us, but firstly He was speaking to Jews, before the cross. When "all hell breaks loose" and they are fleeing the wrath of the last days, this will be their lot...not the Christian from our side of the fence...

Make my day somebody.

I have more struggle with the two men in a bed part...

I don't think the bible teaches a secret rapture...just a sudden rapture...the twinkling of an eye.

There were folks in Paul's day who already had no hope...

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

I guess it is not just about us, the generation that shall not sleep.

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Yes Leia When everyone sees Jesus returning then the mystery of just who God is will be ended. No more faith will be needed.

Jesus said:

John 20:29
Jesus said to him, “Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”



That blessing is for us.

Can y'all hear me busting a gut laughing from where you are?!?!

Odds are the Rapture of 144,000 will be after the tribulation (the anti-Christ and Mark of the Beast) but before the earth is hammered on by comets and natural disasters. It has to be post-trib so God knows that they're faithful even in the times of the beast. They have to prove themselves worthy. It will happen the moment Jesus returns to earth, which the Bible codes say is in 2009 or 2010. I don't know how though. Maybe the moment Jesus returns the 144,000's current physical bodies will simply and suddenly drop dead, they'll ascend to Heaven, and everyone who sees them taken will believe. That would explain why the codes say it will frighten and it will be a threshing (spreading) of faith.

Rapture a sign of Jesus' coming
Rapture in 2009/2010

The gift is in the rapture of the church, and it will frighten.

You know, I never put myself out on a limb like this without scripture to back me up, but today.....

I believe the 144,000 are already ruling a reining. Setting things up with Him after waiting through "the time of the gentiles" from 607 BC to 1914, a period of seven "times".

I believe that Jesus is already here and that our hearts recognise Him.

I believe that we are in the beginnings of the birth pangs and will see some comets and sever natural disasters.

I believe that Jesus is already here setting up the process of "the great harvest"

I believe that if we are going to be "raptured" at all and not die and the sin penalty, that we will be gathered TO HIM in heaven, which means he comes and sets everything up and then calls us from Heaven. He is not on earth when that occurs. It is a two phase process.

I believe that no one knows the hour of the day, but this world will never see 2035.

leia

**Moderator's Note: Please........in all due respect to the Administrator of this forum; do not promote these type of websites while a member of this forum. This forum is not a site for anyone who has other alternative motives by soliciting other forums. Stop advertising other forums in other words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shekel is blessed with a GOD-GIVEN BIBLE CODE; rather than a MAN-DRIVEN BIBLE CODE. There is a difference.**

ahhhhhh..... I looked at a couple of sites like that before and found:
1) they are full of holes
2) they are ridden with viruses

I don't even click. You guys often have what looks like interesting ones to see, but my computer starts going wacko from all the cookies after awhile!

Why do you assume I'm soliciting? I have no ulterior motives, I just wanted to present to you another's findings so that you could decide for yourself what's going to happen. Maybe this person is guided to the codes by God as well, I know God guided me to this website to answer more than a few of my questions. So, can God be wrong? If I'm wrong, God will correct me very quickly-he always does. But if I'm right, he supports me by giving me more evidence to back me up. So far he's supported me on this. He's even correlated signs in clouds to match things I've seen on this website! I saw a code that forms a map of the central Ohio area (where I live) when you connect the letters, then I later prayed to God for a sign and I turned on the weather channel's radar TV station and saw a big bullseye formed out of a cloud hovering right over Pittsburgh! Just like the map! The clouds on the radar formed out of nowhere as a solid circle of clouds with a streak behind it, like a comet, and then turned into a bullseye. For around twenty minutes it stayed put, then I turned off the TV, so I don't know how long it stayed there. That same night my friend, along with an employee of the housing complex we live in, saw a hand formed in the sky out of clouds, like it was going to throw something (kinda like the angels in the book of Revelation chucking flaming urns [I think they were urns] down to earth.

Map of Ohio in Bible Codes

Maybe some of the things on the sight are wrong, maybe they're not, so don't close your mind to other people's findings. You don't know everything, and if this is God speaking through me, then you're basically telling God he's wrong. Sorry if I've offended you, but I speak the truth. If God tells me I'm wrong, I will apologize to you.

Anyways, this website hasn't done anything to harm the multiple computers I've used to look at it, so don't worry about that.
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About Christ's rule-what I've found is that, yes, Christ is enthroned and reigning over earth in Heaven, he has been since 1914, but the Rapture occurs when he RETURNS to EARTH, not when he is enthroned in Heaven, so the 144,000 aren't with him yet. The 144,000 are to reign over the resurrected people, not the current. The Devil and his minions are aware Christ has been enthroned and it's only a matter of time before they're imprisioned, so they've been trying to destroy us and make things worse on earth, hence all the war and disease and general distrust and hatred among us all. We're even attacking each other here! On this board! They want to take us down with them, they know their time is short. Fight it, fight the good fight and don't fall into their traps. Trust in God, and seek help from him and his people on earth. Don't become like everyone else, paranoid, assuming everyone has ulterior motives (unless it's really obvious that they do). That's the wrong way, God wouldn't want us doing that.

P.S. How about we ask Shekel to look for the Rapture in the Bible Code and see what he comes up with? Let's search the KJV and Hebrew scriptures so we have codes in our own language as well, so that they can't be denied.

Thank you crazyhayashi. I don't like to go to toher sites without first knowing it won't zap me!

I shall check it out.

leia

I agree that there will indeed be a rapture of those that remain alive (God's elect) that remain on earth at the very end of the tribulation. God will have given each of us that love Jesus with all our heart a chance to prove our faithfulness. We will have refused the mark, looked to the Lord for everything and for many, gone to our cross for His names' sake. I believe that there will be the tribulation (with persecution of God's people), the resurrection of the righteous dead and immediately following - the rapture of those that remain alive in Christ. This will be our opportunity to prove our words, "I would die for Christ" just as He died for us. We will have been tried and hopefully not found wanting anything but our Lord, our King. God has always done things as He has done in the past and His people have been unable to escape persecution throughout the ages. We will be tried in the wilderness, just as the Jews, just as Jesus. We must walk out our faith, bearing fruit, using our double edged sword (the Word of God) and NEVER sinning (no stealing of food, no lying or making deals, etc.). There will be an outpooring of the Holy Spirit prior to this that the church has never seen since Pentecost that will enable us to be full of His glory (those that will accept it) and this will give us strength and all the full gifts that the disciples had to lead others in the Way of our Beloved. It is only then that the Bridegroom will find a spotless bride in us. Fear not for those that are faithful will see Psalm 91 with their own eyes before Jesus comes to rescue His elect. Though many will be martyred during those days prior there will indeed be those that will see with their own eyes the punishment of the wicked. I will be looking up and if I have been killed, I will return behind Christ to defeat the evil ones! Bless God and come Lord Jesus!

Great spiritual insight! And not because I have said much the same for quite some time. I anticipate Psalms 91 being walked out for us also...

***************

You said, "It is only then that the Bridegroom will find a spotless bride in us."

My thoughts:
What about the NT Saints who died today? They're far from being spotless. Unless, you say that they're "positionally" spotless (washed by the Blood, and declared to be Righteous, even though we don't behave righteously).

I'm far from spotless now. What's going to make me spotless in the Trib?
Where is the Scripture?

The Apostles , at the time of Pentecost AD 30, were not spotless. Paul said "I'm the chief of sinners". Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles, AFTER GOD TOLD HIM that he could eat anything with anybody.

If Paul and Peter can't follow such simple instructions, what hope do we have to be spotless?

I'm not fussing at you. I just want to know the truth.


dennis manning

I don't believe the 144,000 are Christians. I take that portion of scripture more literally than most. The Scripture says that they will be made up of innocent Jews 12,000 from every tribe of Israel. They will be protected through the wrath after the tribulation.

God will for fill His promise to Abraham without compromising His Grace to Us.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Hello Leia.




1914 sounds like jehovah’s witness teachings? Are you a JW Leia?





The kingdom started on the day of Pentecost. That is true. But the members of this Kingdom are a Kingdom in waiting for the Physical Kingdom of the Messiah Jesus. Kingdom of the Messiah will be gifted to the Kingdom of the Holy Spirit.





Yes i believe that aslo.





Jesus is here in Spirit and one day soon He will be here in Physical reality also.





Scripture says we will be gathered to meet Him in the clouds.





I believe when He comes to earth He will rule with us for 1000 years.





I believe this world will see 2035. It could be a post Second Coming world or it could still be a pre- Second Coming world.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Leia
Here is an awsome mystery of God, We will not all die.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Denis- when you accepted Jesus as your savior and the Lord of your life you became "spotless" and "righteous" to our father God through the atoning power of Jesus' sacrifice.

No, none of us capable of being spotless on our own but we are covered by Jesus' blood. As far as the Father sees us, we are because his Son is our intecessor.

When the plagues come upon the unrighteous we "spotless" ones will be saved from wrath just as the Israelites were when GOd sent plagues to Egypt.

These will not be random acts of nature but intentional judgement on the wicked.

Remember how Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo (sorry about sp) were untouched by the fire? We children of God will also be untouched from the "fire" of GOd when he sends curses upon them who have forsaken his Son.

I just thought I would give my 2 cents here. I think this scripture is talking about not the rapture but where some will be taken and beaten and some will be put to death. For brother will turn against brother, sister against sister, husband against wife, father against his children. People will be turning in others for their faith. Just like Judas betrayed Jesus so will family/friends betray each other and have you put to death, just like Jesus was betrayed and taken.

Now for the returning of the Lord as a thief in the night I don't believe is a pre-trib rapture or taking away. If you read Revelation 16:15 which is after the sixth angel poured his bowl on the great river Euphrates it says in verse 15 "Lo, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is he who is awake, keeping his garments that he may not go naked and be seen exposed!"

I just happened to be doing alot of studying today, mostly in Revaltion and end time scriptures. Just thought I would share

The scripture in the Book of Revelation (Chapter 11, I believe [don't have my Bible with me]) that speaks of Hurricane Katrina is also a multi-natured prophecy (much like how the one about 9/11 is actually about the U.S. being destroyed). It speaks of the Rapture. When the whole world goes anti-Christ, they will rejoice when something manages to kill us all (I don't know what). But...just like Jesus, 3.5 days and we will be resurrected and will ascend to Heaven. Imagine the look on the people's faces when our dead bodies start standing up, only to then rise up to Heaven! They'll be stunned! They'll have to convert and give glory to God through Christ!

But according the scripture we have to die first somehow, maybe in a holocaust (one will be taken for being Christian, the other left behind because they're not).

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The events (like 9/11) are foreshadowing larger future events-

Taken from a wikipedia.com page about the different views on the meanings of the Revelations: one view (Eastern Orthodoxy) states-

"It treats the text as simultaneously describing contemporaneous (current) events and as prophecy of events to come, for which the contemporaneous events were a form of foreshadow."

I believe this is the best explanation of the book. The exact events haven't happened yet, but the foreshadowing events indicate that they're about to happen. They keep getting closer and closer to what's prophesied will happen in the end, but they aren't the exact events. The closer the foreshadowing events get to the prophesy though, the closer we get to the exact prophesiesed events occuring.

Thusly, the prophesies have a complex nature that can predict many events that only foreshadow the exact events.

I think the whole "pure and spotless" thing means that the people only have good intentions, not that they're completely sinless. Men are men, born with inherited sin, inclined to sin by nature, so no person can be sinless. They may be people who have not left a single sin unrepented though...people who honestly feel guilty and sick when they sin and whose morals are so pure that they can't not repent, because they'd feel filthy.

crazyhayashi

you wrote:
But according the scripture we have to die first somehow, maybe in a holocaust (one will be taken for being Christian, the other left behind because they're not).

what is your interpretation of this scripture?

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It might mean, not that we won't sleep at all, but that we won't stay asleep for long. When he states "we shall not all sleep" he probably means that we won't stay dead and asleep, but be resurrected quickly.
Of course, it could always happen in an instant, without us dying, but when Jesus said "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." he wasn't only speaking of himself. It was a dual natured prophecy. He was speaking of himself, but it also meant and will mean that the body of Christ, the church, the born-again followers, will be destroyed, or killed, and then shall be resurrected three days afterwards.

It says "not"

I have heard it said that Christ coming in the clouds and catching away those who believe is going to be one of the greatest evangelism witness to those who have heard the truth and not believed. I also believe this this rapture event will not be the only one.
All those that were with Christ after His ressurection watched him rise until a cloud took His out of their sight. And there are the two witnesses who although they are killed will come back to life and people will see them go back into heaven. I don't pretend to know exactely how all this is going to play out. But my Bible says it will happen and that is good enough for me.
justaservan

There is going to be many, of course, we all recognise that. The greatest will be the rising of the antichrist everyone is wondering about and, yes, the two witnesses.

I would not be surprised if many see the Christ and ignore that for looking for so many other things in scripture.

Our heats will tell us when He is here if we will listen to our hearts.

But we are so all fired hungry for looking at the demon side of things we just may ignore what our heart is telling us.

It is not wrong to try to see what Satan is up to. But I was just reminded by Maginaw of Phil. 4:8-9 Seems good for these times.
Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things. The things you have learned and received and heard and seen in me, practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.
That is my prayer that the God of peace would be with us.
justaservant

My father taught me to deal from the bottom of the deck until I could heard it, rather than needing to see it. Though it has been since I was sixteen (underage I know) since I sat at a blackjack table in Vegas, I know what he was trying to "tell" me. You got to know....no, more like sense....when the dragon is around. You have to train yourself and know the smell of him, analyse the creeping feeling in the sides of your mind. But secondly, and MOST IMPORTANT, you have to train your movements as well as an athelete trains...over and over again with the same response...so that it becomes an unconscience manuver.

Then do God's will and rejoice all day! That is why He gave you a brain, to train yourself.

Hi...

If Ok, would love to share something which has been a help for me to "get it"....
Like you touched on, it talks in I Cor 15:20 about how "...Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep." and in I Thess4:16,17 that "...the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (NKJV)

The way it connected with/for me was by looking at what happened with Jesus when He rose from the dead in His glorified body. According to the gospels, He could eat (Lk 24:42), He had substance to His body- could be seen, heard and touched (Matt28:9 and 10;16-20/ Mk16:9,12,14, and 19/Lk24:13-53/Jn20:11-21:19)...and yet also was able to ascend into the clouds and could enter a locked room w/o anyone letting Him in (Jn20:19-31). In Acts1:9-11 we find the angels explaining to the disciples that just like He left, that 's how He'd return (personal translation)...so I've always thought it'd be kinda like that...that what He had, we'd all be given the same (glorified body) too...whether it was those who placed their faith in Him before He died and was resurrected or after...just to share...hope that's OK?


Love in Him!!!
selene

Wow Leia, you have a remarkable way of putting ideas into words. Your message in post # 32 is a complete reflection of my thoughts that I am generally unable to put into words.

I would like to take a moment to point something out here. Your words describe a spirit of fitness that can react without thought. What I would like for people to understand is that is exactly what the catholic litany is. Prayer has more than one distinction.

Sometimes we are making requests by prayer. Then of course we choose our own words. Whether we are asking for peace on earth, the health of a loved one, or an "A" on a test. Litanies, however are like spiritual push-ups. Naturally the boxer does not execute crunches in the ring, but we fully understand how the training works.

sojourner