I just want to raise a topic for consideration .
What does the Bible say about Islam ?
Where is it in end-time prophecy ?
Why is it so widely embraced ?
Have we really understood what Islam is about , spiritually and historically , and if we did would it enable us to minister more effectively to it ?
Full Version: Islam
IShLAM is of IShmael
ISLAM first off it is not a religion in GOD's eyes it is a false religion and is of baal and baalim....they are of their Father and the tribe of Ishmael and have recieved the blessing of Abraham but the curse of ishmael.....always at war with thier brothers both home and neihbor.
it is so widely embraced because they hate Jesus and deny he is GOD
they worship Allah and this name is not in the bible...but from what I have understood the name means "Mighty one" simular to the Hebrew ELohim..the name used for God and not The "GOD" that we all love and worship in our harts.
Islam is not mentioned in old testement nor in new but Baalim is and the worship of Baal is the worship of a Lord.
ISLAM first off it is not a religion in GOD's eyes it is a false religion and is of baal and baalim....they are of their Father and the tribe of Ishmael and have recieved the blessing of Abraham but the curse of ishmael.....always at war with thier brothers both home and neihbor.
it is so widely embraced because they hate Jesus and deny he is GOD
they worship Allah and this name is not in the bible...but from what I have understood the name means "Mighty one" simular to the Hebrew ELohim..the name used for God and not The "GOD" that we all love and worship in our harts.
Islam is not mentioned in old testement nor in new but Baalim is and the worship of Baal is the worship of a Lord.
any thoughts?
QUOTE
Christian apology for the Crusades:
The Reconciliation Walk
Quote:
"But when have Christians demonstrated this love to Muslims or Jews? We have gone to them with swords and guns. We have gone to them with racism and hatred. We have gone to them with feelings of cultural superiority and economic domination. We have gone to them with colonialism and exploitation. We have even gone to them with the Gospel cloaked in arguments of superiority. Only a few have ever gone with the message of Calvary...We must do more than carry the message, we must be the message." Reconciliation Walk
About the Crusades and their legacy of hatred:
The mid 7th century to the mid 10th century CE saw the gradual expansion of Islam. Half of the Christian world was conquered by Arab armies; this included countries in which Christianity had been established for centuries, such as Egypt, southern France, southern Italy, Sicily, Spain, Syria, Turkey, etc. 4
By the late 10th century, Europe and the Middle East were divided into Christian and Muslim spheres of influence. Christian pilgrims from Europe regularly visited Muslim-controlled Jerusalem in reasonable safety. Such pilgrimages were very popular. The were believed to be one of the major acts by which a person could reduce their exposure to the tortures of purgatory after their death.
By the middle of the 11th century, Christianity had formally split between the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire: The Emperor/Bishop of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome had mutually excommunicated each other. In 1071, the Turks defeated the latter at the Battle of Manzikert. This left Constantinople exposed to attack from Muslims. Meanwhile, Christians were being ambushed during their pilgrimages to Jerusalem.
Emperor Alexius asked Pope Urban II for assistance. On 1095-NOV-27, the Pope called on Europeans to go on a crusade to liberate Jerusalem from its Muslim rulers. "The first and second wave of Crusaders murdered, raped and plundered their way up the Rhine and down the Danube as they headed for Jerusalem." 1 The "army" was primarily composed of untrained peasants with their families, with a core of trained soldiers. On the way to the Middle East, they decided that only one of their goals was to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. A secondary task was to rid the world of as many non-Christians as possible - both Muslims and Jews. The Crusaders gave the Jews two choices in their slogan: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed as the first Crusade passed through. Some Jewish writers refer to these events as the "first holocaust." Once the army reached Jerusalem and broke through the city walls, they slaughtered all the inhabitants that they could find (men, women, children, newborns). After locating about 6,000 Jews holed up in the synagogue, they set the building on fire; the Jews were burned alive. The Crusaders found that about 30,000 Muslims had fled to the al Aqsa Mosque. The Muslim were also slaughtered without mercy.
The Roman Catholic church taught that going to war against the "Infidels" was an act of Christian penance. If a believer was killed during a crusade, he would bypass purgatory, and be taken directly to heaven. By eliminating what might be many millennia of torture in Purgatory, many Christians were strongly motivated to volunteer for the crusades. "After pronouncing a solemn vow, each warrior received a cross from the hands of the pope or his legates, and was thenceforth considered a soldier of the Church." 3
These mass killings were repeated during each of the 8 additional crusades until the final, 9th, crusade in 1272 CE. Both Christians and Muslims believed that they were fighting on God's side against Satan; they believed that if they died on the battlefield they would be given preferential treatment in the Christian Heaven or the Muslim Paradise. Battles were fought with a terrible fierceness and a massive loss of life. Over a 200 year period, perhaps 200,000 people were killed. The Muslim warrior Salah a-Din subsequently recaptured Jerusalem from the Christians.
By the end of the crusades, most European Christians believed the unfounded blood-libel myths -- the rumor that Jews engaged in human sacrifice of Christian children. A long series of Christian persecutions of the Jews continued in Europe and Russia into the 20th century. They laid the foundation for the Nazi Holocaust.
The result of centuries of conflict among followers of the three main Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) was a "deep mutual hatred" and mistrust among the three faiths. Memories of these genocides still influence relationships among Jews, Christians and Muslims to the present time.
Among many Jews and Muslims, the term crusade evokes visions of genocide, mass murder, and mass extermination of innocent people. However, among many Christians it has become a positive term, frequently used to refer to mass rallies and campaigns to win converts - as in the Billy Graham Crusades. Out of respect for the victims of the "first holocaust," we recommend that the term be only used to refer to the wars of the Middle Ages.
The Reconciliation Walk:
"The Reconciliation Walk is an interdenominational grassroots movement of Western Christians,...retracing the route of the First Crusade, apologizing to Muslims, Jews and Eastern Christians for the atrocities of the Crusades -- foremost among them, the misuse of the name and message of Jesus."
The organizers of the Reconciliation Walk are unaware of any previous, " serious effort to repair this damage" caused by the crusades. The first crusaders set off for Jerusalem in 1096-APR, from the cathedral in Cologne. Exactly 900 years later, on Easter Sunday, about 150 walkers departed from the same cathedral. Their first stop was a Turkish Mosque and teaching center. Their leader explained that the walkers had come to apologize for the atrocities committed in the name of Christ during the Crusades. Then they read a letter of apology in German, Turkish and English. They were "greeted with loud, sustained applause." The Imam responded: "When I heard the nature of your message, I was astonished and filled with hope. I thought to myself, 'whoever had this idea must have had an epiphany, a visit from God himself.' It is my wish that this project should become a very great success."
During the Crusades, the entire Jewish population of Cologne was destroyed. In remembrance of this, the walkers went to the local synagogue. Since it was a Jewish holy day, the walkers did not go inside; they prayed and moved on.
Individual walkers joined the group for as few as 10 days or as much as many months at a time. Following the ancient routes of the Crusades, one team passed through France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Slovenia Croatia, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Greece. A second team set out from Germany and passed through Slovakia, Hungary and Bulgaria. The teams met at Istanbul, Turkey on 1996-OCT-10. The Deputy Mufti of Istanbul, the Chief Rabbi, the Representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch (head of the Orthodox church) and the Deputy Mayer welcomed the team with warmth and appreciation. "In towns and villages, people spilled out of their houses and applauded the team as they passed." They visited countless cities, towns, and villages in Turkey during 1996 and 1997.
In mid-1998, a team arrived in Antakya, Turkey (once called Antioch) on the 900th anniversary of the conquest of that city. By 1998-SEP, they had reached Syria and Lebanon. About 500 participants reached Jerusalem on 1999-JUL-15, the 900th anniversary of the killing of about 60,000 Jerusalem residents and the destruction of the city.
About 2,000 Christians from 27 countries have participated in this walk. Most are Evangelical Protestants. They have worn T-shirts and caps that say "I apologize" in Arabic or Hebrew.
The Reconciliation Walk statement of apology reads:
"Nine hundred years ago, our forefathers carried the name of Jesus Christ in battle across the Middle East. Fueled by fear, greed and hatred, they betrayed the name of Christ by conducting themselves in a manner contrary to His wishes and character. The Crusaders lifted the banner of the Cross above your people. By this act they corrupted its true meaning of reconciliation, forgiveness and selfless love.
On the anniversary of the First Crusade we also carry the name of Christ. We wish to retrace the footsteps of the Crusaders in apology for their deeds and in demonstration of the true meaning of the Cross. We deeply regret the atrocities committed in the name of Christ by our predecessors. We renounce greed, hatred and fear, and condemn all violence done in the name of Jesus Christ.
Where they were motivated by hatred and prejudice, we offer love and brotherhood. Jesus the Messiah came to give life. Forgive us for allowing His name to be associated with death. Please accept again the true meaning of the Messiah's words:
'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.' "
References:
"Reconciliation Walk: The Crusades," at: http://www.reconciliationwalk.org/crusades.htm
David Sharrock, "Nine hundred years later, a Christian apology for Crusades," The Guardian. Reprinted in The Globe and Mail, Toronto ON, 1999-JUL-5.
"The Catholic Encyclopedia: Crusades," at: http://www.csn.net/advent/cathen/04543c.htm
"[Gwynne Dyer,] Historian: Reconciliation walk has bad sense of history," Maranatha Christian Journal, at: http://www.mcjonline.com/news/news3274.htm
Copyright © 1996 to 2005 by Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
Latest update: 2005-NOV-04
Author: B.A. Robinson
The Reconciliation Walk
Quote:
"But when have Christians demonstrated this love to Muslims or Jews? We have gone to them with swords and guns. We have gone to them with racism and hatred. We have gone to them with feelings of cultural superiority and economic domination. We have gone to them with colonialism and exploitation. We have even gone to them with the Gospel cloaked in arguments of superiority. Only a few have ever gone with the message of Calvary...We must do more than carry the message, we must be the message." Reconciliation Walk
About the Crusades and their legacy of hatred:
The mid 7th century to the mid 10th century CE saw the gradual expansion of Islam. Half of the Christian world was conquered by Arab armies; this included countries in which Christianity had been established for centuries, such as Egypt, southern France, southern Italy, Sicily, Spain, Syria, Turkey, etc. 4
By the late 10th century, Europe and the Middle East were divided into Christian and Muslim spheres of influence. Christian pilgrims from Europe regularly visited Muslim-controlled Jerusalem in reasonable safety. Such pilgrimages were very popular. The were believed to be one of the major acts by which a person could reduce their exposure to the tortures of purgatory after their death.
By the middle of the 11th century, Christianity had formally split between the Roman Catholic Church and the Byzantine Empire: The Emperor/Bishop of Constantinople and the Bishop of Rome had mutually excommunicated each other. In 1071, the Turks defeated the latter at the Battle of Manzikert. This left Constantinople exposed to attack from Muslims. Meanwhile, Christians were being ambushed during their pilgrimages to Jerusalem.
Emperor Alexius asked Pope Urban II for assistance. On 1095-NOV-27, the Pope called on Europeans to go on a crusade to liberate Jerusalem from its Muslim rulers. "The first and second wave of Crusaders murdered, raped and plundered their way up the Rhine and down the Danube as they headed for Jerusalem." 1 The "army" was primarily composed of untrained peasants with their families, with a core of trained soldiers. On the way to the Middle East, they decided that only one of their goals was to wrest control of Jerusalem from the Muslims. A secondary task was to rid the world of as many non-Christians as possible - both Muslims and Jews. The Crusaders gave the Jews two choices in their slogan: "Christ-killers, embrace the Cross or die!" 12,000 Jews in the Rhine Valley alone were killed as the first Crusade passed through. Some Jewish writers refer to these events as the "first holocaust." Once the army reached Jerusalem and broke through the city walls, they slaughtered all the inhabitants that they could find (men, women, children, newborns). After locating about 6,000 Jews holed up in the synagogue, they set the building on fire; the Jews were burned alive. The Crusaders found that about 30,000 Muslims had fled to the al Aqsa Mosque. The Muslim were also slaughtered without mercy.
The Roman Catholic church taught that going to war against the "Infidels" was an act of Christian penance. If a believer was killed during a crusade, he would bypass purgatory, and be taken directly to heaven. By eliminating what might be many millennia of torture in Purgatory, many Christians were strongly motivated to volunteer for the crusades. "After pronouncing a solemn vow, each warrior received a cross from the hands of the pope or his legates, and was thenceforth considered a soldier of the Church." 3
These mass killings were repeated during each of the 8 additional crusades until the final, 9th, crusade in 1272 CE. Both Christians and Muslims believed that they were fighting on God's side against Satan; they believed that if they died on the battlefield they would be given preferential treatment in the Christian Heaven or the Muslim Paradise. Battles were fought with a terrible fierceness and a massive loss of life. Over a 200 year period, perhaps 200,000 people were killed. The Muslim warrior Salah a-Din subsequently recaptured Jerusalem from the Christians.
By the end of the crusades, most European Christians believed the unfounded blood-libel myths -- the rumor that Jews engaged in human sacrifice of Christian children. A long series of Christian persecutions of the Jews continued in Europe and Russia into the 20th century. They laid the foundation for the Nazi Holocaust.
The result of centuries of conflict among followers of the three main Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) was a "deep mutual hatred" and mistrust among the three faiths. Memories of these genocides still influence relationships among Jews, Christians and Muslims to the present time.
Among many Jews and Muslims, the term crusade evokes visions of genocide, mass murder, and mass extermination of innocent people. However, among many Christians it has become a positive term, frequently used to refer to mass rallies and campaigns to win converts - as in the Billy Graham Crusades. Out of respect for the victims of the "first holocaust," we recommend that the term be only used to refer to the wars of the Middle Ages.
The Reconciliation Walk:
"The Reconciliation Walk is an interdenominational grassroots movement of Western Christians,...retracing the route of the First Crusade, apologizing to Muslims, Jews and Eastern Christians for the atrocities of the Crusades -- foremost among them, the misuse of the name and message of Jesus."
The organizers of the Reconciliation Walk are unaware of any previous, " serious effort to repair this damage" caused by the crusades. The first crusaders set off for Jerusalem in 1096-APR, from the cathedral in Cologne. Exactly 900 years later, on Easter Sunday, about 150 walkers departed from the same cathedral. Their first stop was a Turkish Mosque and teaching center. Their leader explained that the walkers had come to apologize for the atrocities committed in the name of Christ during the Crusades. Then they read a letter of apology in German, Turkish and English. They were "greeted with loud, sustained applause." The Imam responded: "When I heard the nature of your message, I was astonished and filled with hope. I thought to myself, 'whoever had this idea must have had an epiphany, a visit from God himself.' It is my wish that this project should become a very great success."
During the Crusades, the entire Jewish population of Cologne was destroyed. In remembrance of this, the walkers went to the local synagogue. Since it was a Jewish holy day, the walkers did not go inside; they prayed and moved on.
Individual walkers joined the group for as few as 10 days or as much as many months at a time. Following the ancient routes of the Crusades, one team passed through France, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Slovenia Croatia, Montenegro, Albania, Macedonia and Greece. A second team set out from Germany and passed through Slovakia, Hungary and Bulgaria. The teams met at Istanbul, Turkey on 1996-OCT-10. The Deputy Mufti of Istanbul, the Chief Rabbi, the Representative of the Ecumenical Patriarch (head of the Orthodox church) and the Deputy Mayer welcomed the team with warmth and appreciation. "In towns and villages, people spilled out of their houses and applauded the team as they passed." They visited countless cities, towns, and villages in Turkey during 1996 and 1997.
In mid-1998, a team arrived in Antakya, Turkey (once called Antioch) on the 900th anniversary of the conquest of that city. By 1998-SEP, they had reached Syria and Lebanon. About 500 participants reached Jerusalem on 1999-JUL-15, the 900th anniversary of the killing of about 60,000 Jerusalem residents and the destruction of the city.
About 2,000 Christians from 27 countries have participated in this walk. Most are Evangelical Protestants. They have worn T-shirts and caps that say "I apologize" in Arabic or Hebrew.
The Reconciliation Walk statement of apology reads:
"Nine hundred years ago, our forefathers carried the name of Jesus Christ in battle across the Middle East. Fueled by fear, greed and hatred, they betrayed the name of Christ by conducting themselves in a manner contrary to His wishes and character. The Crusaders lifted the banner of the Cross above your people. By this act they corrupted its true meaning of reconciliation, forgiveness and selfless love.
On the anniversary of the First Crusade we also carry the name of Christ. We wish to retrace the footsteps of the Crusaders in apology for their deeds and in demonstration of the true meaning of the Cross. We deeply regret the atrocities committed in the name of Christ by our predecessors. We renounce greed, hatred and fear, and condemn all violence done in the name of Jesus Christ.
Where they were motivated by hatred and prejudice, we offer love and brotherhood. Jesus the Messiah came to give life. Forgive us for allowing His name to be associated with death. Please accept again the true meaning of the Messiah's words:
'The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He has anointed me to bring good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to let the oppressed go free, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.' "
References:
"Reconciliation Walk: The Crusades," at: http://www.reconciliationwalk.org/crusades.htm
David Sharrock, "Nine hundred years later, a Christian apology for Crusades," The Guardian. Reprinted in The Globe and Mail, Toronto ON, 1999-JUL-5.
"The Catholic Encyclopedia: Crusades," at: http://www.csn.net/advent/cathen/04543c.htm
"[Gwynne Dyer,] Historian: Reconciliation walk has bad sense of history," Maranatha Christian Journal, at: http://www.mcjonline.com/news/news3274.htm
Copyright © 1996 to 2005 by Ontario Consultants on Religious Tolerance
Latest update: 2005-NOV-04
Author: B.A. Robinson
The Christian Bible was completed about AD 95
The Koran was written about 600 years later.
The Christian does NOT retaliate after being wronged; he turns the other cheek.
The Moslem retaliates with deadly force, which appeals to the "pride of life, the lust of the flesh, etc"
The Moslem is a male-dominated culture, which may please the men.
There's a billion Moslems in the world.
! billion Catholics
200 million born-again evangelical Christians (by Dave Hunt's very rough estimate)
Christianity is NOT popular.
Catholic and Moslem are popular.
Christianity is growing fast in Central America and Africa, but, they're so poor, they have little impact on world influence.
Europe is post-Christian.
America is the only place in the world where you have enough Evangelicals, with enough money, to have an impact and influence upon the world scene. We're the lone super-power.
dennis manning
The Koran was written about 600 years later.
The Christian does NOT retaliate after being wronged; he turns the other cheek.
The Moslem retaliates with deadly force, which appeals to the "pride of life, the lust of the flesh, etc"
The Moslem is a male-dominated culture, which may please the men.
There's a billion Moslems in the world.
! billion Catholics
200 million born-again evangelical Christians (by Dave Hunt's very rough estimate)
Christianity is NOT popular.
Catholic and Moslem are popular.
Christianity is growing fast in Central America and Africa, but, they're so poor, they have little impact on world influence.
Europe is post-Christian.
America is the only place in the world where you have enough Evangelicals, with enough money, to have an impact and influence upon the world scene. We're the lone super-power.
dennis manning
But America represents , is represented by , the rough Goat , the King of Grecia .............
i.e Democracy .
America is not spreading Christianity now , she is imposing democracy .
------------------
As for Islam , it seems to be negligible in the bible . Why would that be ?
Is something going to happen shortly in the Moslem world that will separate the Sheep from the Goats ?
The peaceful from the warmongering . ?
Faith can move mountains . The Mountain of Seir is the Mountain of Islam . Maybe it will soon fall ..............
i.e Democracy .
America is not spreading Christianity now , she is imposing democracy .
------------------
As for Islam , it seems to be negligible in the bible . Why would that be ?
Is something going to happen shortly in the Moslem world that will separate the Sheep from the Goats ?
The peaceful from the warmongering . ?
Faith can move mountains . The Mountain of Seir is the Mountain of Islam . Maybe it will soon fall ..............
I might be way off but what about Ezekiel 38, 39?
Do you think thats where Islam will finally be destroyed?
Do you think thats where Islam will finally be destroyed?
Alot of seemingly innocent people were slaughtered by the Israelites of ancient times. Innocent by today's standards that is. The same can be said of the period of the crusades. It was a period that surely God was aware of long before it took place.
The article posted here makes it sound as though the only Christians murdered were a handful of travelers. The truth is right there in the article itself. Christianity was the primary faith of the middle east. They were not asked to convert kindly. Never forget that this was the period known as the dark ages for Europe. Most noblemen were not much more than what might be described as mafia dons. Many had risen to their lofty positions by assassination, almost none were educated. Love and kindness were not in the recipe for survival. The gentle and tender were the peasants that more than 50% of died in childbirth alone. Let alone disease that thrived on simple people who slept on cold dirt floors or starved. It is easy to sit back from our positions of well fed bellies and heated homes to judge the people of a world of misery and death. It could not have possibly been unexpected by God. Christianity was going to spread by the will of God. It is not our responsibility to apologize for it. What innocents may have suffered during that period will be no worse than what innocents will suffer during the tribulation. God has promised to wipe away the tears. We are all well aware here that Christ will judge us on an individual basis and Satan marches right along side of humanity and it's pilgrimage to a higher level of existence. I can just see God on judgement day asking us "Did I ask you to apologize for me?" We cannot confess for our ancestors. We can only confess for ourselves.
Many of the Crusaders had good hearts. The Byzantines did not just casually ask for a hand in a simple matter. They were screaming bloody murder in a desparate life and death struggle. The fact is the Europeans sent too little too late.
Simplebaby, how do we know that Islam is all wrong? Type "MOHAMED" into your search engine. Mohamed began his career in Arabia as a bandit. Unlike Christ who was blameless and a perfect example to humanity.
By all means, let's explore the topic of the crusades further. I have no doubt that God can stand up to the scrutiny.
sojourner
The article posted here makes it sound as though the only Christians murdered were a handful of travelers. The truth is right there in the article itself. Christianity was the primary faith of the middle east. They were not asked to convert kindly. Never forget that this was the period known as the dark ages for Europe. Most noblemen were not much more than what might be described as mafia dons. Many had risen to their lofty positions by assassination, almost none were educated. Love and kindness were not in the recipe for survival. The gentle and tender were the peasants that more than 50% of died in childbirth alone. Let alone disease that thrived on simple people who slept on cold dirt floors or starved. It is easy to sit back from our positions of well fed bellies and heated homes to judge the people of a world of misery and death. It could not have possibly been unexpected by God. Christianity was going to spread by the will of God. It is not our responsibility to apologize for it. What innocents may have suffered during that period will be no worse than what innocents will suffer during the tribulation. God has promised to wipe away the tears. We are all well aware here that Christ will judge us on an individual basis and Satan marches right along side of humanity and it's pilgrimage to a higher level of existence. I can just see God on judgement day asking us "Did I ask you to apologize for me?" We cannot confess for our ancestors. We can only confess for ourselves.
Many of the Crusaders had good hearts. The Byzantines did not just casually ask for a hand in a simple matter. They were screaming bloody murder in a desparate life and death struggle. The fact is the Europeans sent too little too late.
Simplebaby, how do we know that Islam is all wrong? Type "MOHAMED" into your search engine. Mohamed began his career in Arabia as a bandit. Unlike Christ who was blameless and a perfect example to humanity.
By all means, let's explore the topic of the crusades further. I have no doubt that God can stand up to the scrutiny.
sojourner
Sorry Dennis, but I have to disagree with your opinion of Catholicism as being so popular. This site alone gives evidence of quite the opposite. The only reason the catholic church is so wide spread is because of it's missionary efforts.
sojourner
sojourner
QUOTE(simplebaby @ Nov 28 2005, 06:01 AM)
But America represents , is represented by , the rough Goat , the King of Grecia .............
i.e Democracy .
America is not spreading Christianity now , she is imposing democracy .
------------------
As for Islam , it seems to be negligible in the bible . Why would that be ?
Is something going to happen shortly in the Moslem world that will separate the Sheep from the Goats ?
The peaceful from the warmongering . ?
Faith can move mountains . The Mountain of Seir is the Mountain of Islam . Maybe it will soon fall ..............
[right][snapback]25659[/snapback][/right]
i.e Democracy .
America is not spreading Christianity now , she is imposing democracy .
------------------
As for Islam , it seems to be negligible in the bible . Why would that be ?
Is something going to happen shortly in the Moslem world that will separate the Sheep from the Goats ?
The peaceful from the warmongering . ?
Faith can move mountains . The Mountain of Seir is the Mountain of Islam . Maybe it will soon fall ..............
[right][snapback]25659[/snapback][/right]
Wow, that is alot in one post!
Democracy: OK, pick another on that you think is better....And forget God being King because although it is best for all it is not going to happen this side of eternity as per scripture. So pick one. Lord knows everything written in good graces goes wrong eventually dealing with sinful humans (all humans regardless of culture), but those who have been living under other political structures are coming here. We are not trying to go there.
Christianity: can I ask just how many missionaries you support with you money while you are saying we are not preading the Word of God? Where are those in this very forum who are now going back into the field as well? What are the reports that my dear friends are brings back from their own missionary travels? How do you support your statement when the life blood of my friends can tell their side of the story?
Sheep fro the Goats: Ya, something will happen very shortly.....and we will all be sorted...Amen? God is very real.
Mountain of Seir: What makes you say that? Oh, there are so many that will end up on the side against Jesus when He comes to harvest and it will not be a religious thing, it will be a Jesus thing. Might sound religious, but it isn't really. There are those who love their money who will fall. Perhpas you can call that "their religion" if you must. There will be those who harber discord and sow those seeds into the kingdom that will fall. But perhaps that is their religion as well. The way is narrow. Those who have Jesus as master show it by their works and their words and those that are not are many and varied. Your "mountain" may encompass these you speak of, I am not the judge of others and do as the Lord tells me, but they are ot the sole ownership of the term Mountain of Seir.
That term belongs to a very large goup of doomed individuals.
leia
Leia , I never said that as being necessarily a bad thing .
Its just an observation .
Bush never declared that he was going into Iraq to spread the Gospel , but he did declare that he was going into Iraq to spread democracy . Personally , I think that that is a good thing , although there are many against that view .
(And maybe democracy is a kind of prerequisite to preaching the gospel . )
------------------
I guess I raised this topic , because whenever Islam is mentioned , a kind of panic ensues . But I'm wondering where is Islam in the bible ? Considering it is the World's predominant religion ........maybe that is what is engendering the panic , so visible but invisible in the bible ?
Its just an observation .
Bush never declared that he was going into Iraq to spread the Gospel , but he did declare that he was going into Iraq to spread democracy . Personally , I think that that is a good thing , although there are many against that view .
(And maybe democracy is a kind of prerequisite to preaching the gospel . )
------------------
I guess I raised this topic , because whenever Islam is mentioned , a kind of panic ensues . But I'm wondering where is Islam in the bible ? Considering it is the World's predominant religion ........maybe that is what is engendering the panic , so visible but invisible in the bible ?
QUOTE
Alot of seemingly innocent people were slaughtered by the Israelites of ancient times. Innocent by today's standards that is.
!! sorry , but that is wrong .
QUOTE
The article posted here makes it sound as though the only Christians murdered were a handful of travelers. The truth is right there in the article itself. Christianity was the primary faith of the middle east. They were not asked to convert kindly. Never forget that this was the period known as the dark ages for Europe. Most noblemen were not much more than what might be described as mafia dons. Many had risen to their lofty positions by assassination, almost none were educated. Love and kindness were not in the recipe for survival. The gentle and tender were the peasants that more than 50% of died in childbirth alone. Let alone disease that thrived on simple people who slept on cold dirt floors or starved. It is easy to sit back from our positions of well fed bellies and heated homes to judge the people of a world of misery and death. It could not have possibly been unexpected by God. Christianity was going to spread by the will of God. It is not our responsibility to apologize for it. What innocents may have suffered during that period will be no worse than what innocents will suffer during the tribulation. God has promised to wipe away the tears. We are all well aware here that Christ will judge us on an individual basis and Satan marches right along side of humanity and it's pilgrimage to a higher level of existence. I can just see God on judgement day asking us "Did I ask you to apologize for me?" We cannot confess for our ancestors. We can only confess for ourselves.
Many of the Crusaders had good hearts. The Byzantines did not just casually ask for a hand in a simple matter. They were screaming bloody murder in a desparate life and death struggle. The fact is the Europeans sent too little too late.
Many of the Crusaders had good hearts. The Byzantines did not just casually ask for a hand in a simple matter. They were screaming bloody murder in a desparate life and death struggle. The fact is the Europeans sent too little too late.
Okay this is interesting . would you say then that we should take a sword to Islam ?
QUOTE
Simplebaby, how do we know that Islam is all wrong? Type "MOHAMED" into your search engine. Mohamed began his career in Arabia as a bandit. Unlike Christ who was blameless and a perfect example to humanity.
By all means, let's explore the topic of the crusades further. I have no doubt that God can stand up to the scrutiny.
sojourner
By all means, let's explore the topic of the crusades further. I have no doubt that God can stand up to the scrutiny.
sojourner
Well , I think we're on dangerous territory now , as regards God being the Author of the Crusades . As per Mohammed , I don't think anybody is comparing him to Christ . I guess Islam seems to raise some strange issues , that's all , given that the Jews and Moslems in one sense share a common denominator , they are both in denial about Christ .
Now we know that God doesn't abandon the Jews , but upholds his covenant with them . What about the Ishmaelites .....since God wishes to save all men , 'that none should perish ' ?
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Anyway , my overall question remains the same - is Islam just one Antichrist amongst many ? Is it the predominant Antichrist ? Why if it is is it so obscure in prophecy ?
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There's a billion Moslems in the world.
! billion Catholics
200 million born-again evangelical Christians (by Dave Hunt's very rough estimate)
Christianity is NOT popular.
Catholic and Moslem are popular.
! billion Catholics
200 million born-again evangelical Christians (by Dave Hunt's very rough estimate)
Christianity is NOT popular.
Catholic and Moslem are popular.
a billion catholics?
Sorry Simplebaby, I don't think that you understood what I was saying. The key word I was using in that quote was "seemingly". By today's standards I am referring to the politically correct society we live in. Read the book of Judges SimpleBaby. The tribe of Benjamin was nearly extinguished. We call this genocide today.
I was wondering how you feel about executing juvenile delinquents?
Never anywhere did I say that we should take swords to Islam. Why would you try to misrepresent my words in such a fashion? God, the author of the crusades? Well, maybe yes and maybe no, but as Christ pointed out to Pilate nothing happens unless God allows it.
God is who he is, not what we try to make him.
How do you feel toward the Jews, SimpleBaby? I'm curious.
sojourner
I was wondering how you feel about executing juvenile delinquents?
Never anywhere did I say that we should take swords to Islam. Why would you try to misrepresent my words in such a fashion? God, the author of the crusades? Well, maybe yes and maybe no, but as Christ pointed out to Pilate nothing happens unless God allows it.
God is who he is, not what we try to make him.
How do you feel toward the Jews, SimpleBaby? I'm curious.
sojourner
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Sorry Simplebaby, I don't think that you understood what I was saying. The key word I was using in that quote was "seemingly". By today's standards I am referring to the politically correct society we live in. Read the book of Judges SimpleBaby. The tribe of Benjamin was nearly extinguished. We call this genocide today.
I take your point .
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I was wondering how you feel about executing juvenile delinquents?
I don't believe in that
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Never anywhere did I say that we should take swords to Islam. Why would you try to misrepresent my words in such a fashion?
It was really just a question , not an accusation .
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God is who he is, not what we try to make him.
Absolutely!
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How do you feel toward the Jews, SimpleBaby? I'm curious.
I love them very much , and maybe am even a little bit Jewish myself .....a lot of us are you know .
You want to be 
My middle name is Elsa and it's said to be Jewish...
My middle name is Elsa and it's said to be Jewish...
QUOTE(AppyGroove @ Nov 28 2005, 04:09 PM)
QUOTE
There's a billion Moslems in the world.
! billion Catholics
200 million born-again evangelical Christians (by Dave Hunt's very rough estimate)
Christianity is NOT popular.
Catholic and Moslem are popular.
! billion Catholics
200 million born-again evangelical Christians (by Dave Hunt's very rough estimate)
Christianity is NOT popular.
Catholic and Moslem are popular.
a billion catholics?
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If I remember correctly, Dave Hunt said: There's a billion Catholics in the world.
And a billion Moslems.
Total population on earth: about 6 billion.
QUOTE(sojourner @ Nov 28 2005, 01:08 PM)
Sorry Dennis, but I have to disagree with your opinion of Catholicism as being so popular. This site alone gives evidence of quite the opposite. The only reason the catholic church is so wide spread is because of it's missionary efforts.
sojourner
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sojourner
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I was thinking of popularity , as in sheer numbers:
1 billion Catholics
1 billion Muslims
200 million Christians.
Christians are out-numbered by the Catholics , 5 to 1.
There's a lot of Catholics in Latin America.
dennis manning
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My middle name is Elsa and it's said to be Jewish...
No Miki....sorry it is Russian.
QUOTE(simplebaby @ Nov 28 2005, 02:31 PM)
Leia , I never said that as being necessarily a bad thing .
Its just an observation .
Bush never declared that he was going into Iraq to spread the Gospel , but he did declare that he was going into Iraq to spread democracy . Personally , I think that that is a good thing , although there are many against that view .
(And maybe democracy is a kind of prerequisite to preaching the gospel . )
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I guess I raised this topic , because whenever Islam is mentioned , a kind of panic ensues . But I'm wondering where is Islam in the bible ? Considering it is the World's predominant religion ........maybe that is what is engendering the panic , so visible but invisible in the bible ?
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Its just an observation .
Bush never declared that he was going into Iraq to spread the Gospel , but he did declare that he was going into Iraq to spread democracy . Personally , I think that that is a good thing , although there are many against that view .
(And maybe democracy is a kind of prerequisite to preaching the gospel . )
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I guess I raised this topic , because whenever Islam is mentioned , a kind of panic ensues . But I'm wondering where is Islam in the bible ? Considering it is the World's predominant religion ........maybe that is what is engendering the panic , so visible but invisible in the bible ?
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One of things l've wondered about going to war in Iraq was...
1. Facing the reality of war on terror.
2. Doing it on their soil.... like how David didn't want the city to be destroyed so he went over there to fight...
3. About availability of our troops in what is sure to come....
Remember how long it took to get them there is the first place...It's no little issue.
What if Bush has them on hand for a reason he knows is coming in the future. Something we don't know but 'they' do...Look how long on our own soil...Katrina
Don't you think that war was/is a catch 22 thing?
QUOTE(Miki @ Dec 7 2005, 07:27 AM)
QUOTE(simplebaby @ Nov 28 2005, 02:31 PM)
Leia , I never said that as being necessarily a bad thing .
Its just an observation .
Bush never declared that he was going into Iraq to spread the Gospel , but he did declare that he was going into Iraq to spread democracy . Personally , I think that that is a good thing , although there are many against that view .
(And maybe democracy is a kind of prerequisite to preaching the gospel . )
------------------
I guess I raised this topic , because whenever Islam is mentioned , a kind of panic ensues . But I'm wondering where is Islam in the bible ? Considering it is the World's predominant religion ........maybe that is what is engendering the panic , so visible but invisible in the bible ?
[right][snapback]25685[/snapback][/right]
Its just an observation .
Bush never declared that he was going into Iraq to spread the Gospel , but he did declare that he was going into Iraq to spread democracy . Personally , I think that that is a good thing , although there are many against that view .
(And maybe democracy is a kind of prerequisite to preaching the gospel . )
------------------
I guess I raised this topic , because whenever Islam is mentioned , a kind of panic ensues . But I'm wondering where is Islam in the bible ? Considering it is the World's predominant religion ........maybe that is what is engendering the panic , so visible but invisible in the bible ?
[right][snapback]25685[/snapback][/right]
One of things l've wondered about going to war in Iraq was...
1. Facing the reality of war on terror.
2. Doing it on their soil.... like how David didn't want the city to be destroyed so he went over there to fight...
3. About availability of our troops in what is sure to come....
Remember how long it took to get them there is the first place...It's no little issue.
What if Bush has them on hand for a reason he knows is coming in the future. Something we don't know but 'they' do...Look how long on our own soil...Katrina
Don't you think that war was/is a catch 22 thing?
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Don't you think that war was/is a catch 22 thing?
Entirely. It is a trap in the long run. So much strength and money goes to that it has stretched the homeland to breaking they could not even respond to a hurricane.
But do you ever wonder if we will say it's a good thing we were there?
I don't know...l'm just wondering...
About the troops and what's coming..
I'm glad we did it because it was a festering pus pocket of hell on earth but l just can't grasp the concept of helping rebuild...at least to such a great extent...except to keep our troops there.
Like l said...because something is coming and l don't think for one minute it's coming because we deserve it for going into Iraq. I think it's long been planned.
I don't know...l'm just wondering...
About the troops and what's coming..
I'm glad we did it because it was a festering pus pocket of hell on earth but l just can't grasp the concept of helping rebuild...at least to such a great extent...except to keep our troops there.
Like l said...because something is coming and l don't think for one minute it's coming because we deserve it for going into Iraq. I think it's long been planned.
I understood , correct me if I'm wrong , that the problem with New Orleans was that the man in charge of homeland disasters was someone Bush had selected because he had beaten him at a game of Golf .
And that the man was completely inept .
And that the man was completely inept .
Never heard that one?! 
I thought it was because the Mayor was having lunch and didn't want to be bothered with evacuation nonsense.
I thought it was because the Mayor was having lunch and didn't want to be bothered with evacuation nonsense.
QUOTE(simplebaby @ Nov 28 2005, 09:46 AM)
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Alot of seemingly innocent people were slaughtered by the Israelites of ancient times. Innocent by today's standards that is.
!! sorry , but that is wrong .
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The article posted here makes it sound as though the only Christians murdered were a handful of travelers. The truth is right there in the article itself. Christianity was the primary faith of the middle east. They were not asked to convert kindly. Never forget that this was the period known as the dark ages for Europe. Most noblemen were not much more than what might be described as mafia dons. Many had risen to their lofty positions by assassination, almost none were educated. Love and kindness were not in the recipe for survival. The gentle and tender were the peasants that more than 50% of died in childbirth alone. Let alone disease that thrived on simple people who slept on cold dirt floors or starved. It is easy to sit back from our positions of well fed bellies and heated homes to judge the people of a world of misery and death. It could not have possibly been unexpected by God. Christianity was going to spread by the will of God. It is not our responsibility to apologize for it. What innocents may have suffered during that period will be no worse than what innocents will suffer during the tribulation. God has promised to wipe away the tears. We are all well aware here that Christ will judge us on an individual basis and Satan marches right along side of humanity and it's pilgrimage to a higher level of existence. I can just see God on judgement day asking us "Did I ask you to apologize for me?" We cannot confess for our ancestors. We can only confess for ourselves.
Many of the Crusaders had good hearts. The Byzantines did not just casually ask for a hand in a simple matter. They were screaming bloody murder in a desparate life and death struggle. The fact is the Europeans sent too little too late.
Many of the Crusaders had good hearts. The Byzantines did not just casually ask for a hand in a simple matter. They were screaming bloody murder in a desparate life and death struggle. The fact is the Europeans sent too little too late.
Okay this is interesting . would you say then that we should take a sword to Islam ?
QUOTE
Simplebaby, how do we know that Islam is all wrong? Type "MOHAMED" into your search engine. Mohamed began his career in Arabia as a bandit. Unlike Christ who was blameless and a perfect example to humanity.
By all means, let's explore the topic of the crusades further. I have no doubt that God can stand up to the scrutiny.
sojourner
By all means, let's explore the topic of the crusades further. I have no doubt that God can stand up to the scrutiny.
sojourner
Well , I think we're on dangerous territory now , as regards God being the Author of the Crusades . As per Mohammed , I don't think anybody is comparing him to Christ . I guess Islam seems to raise some strange issues , that's all , given that the Jews and Moslems in one sense share a common denominator , they are both in denial about Christ .
Now we know that God doesn't abandon the Jews , but upholds his covenant with them . What about the Ishmaelites .....since God wishes to save all men , 'that none should perish ' ?
[right][snapback]25687[/snapback][/right]
Luk 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
Luk 11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here. [the queen of Sheba (a tract in Arabia, near the shores of the Red Sea) came from a remote country, "south" of Judea, to hear the wisdom of a mere man, though a gifted one, and was transported with wonder at what she saw and heard (1 Ki 10:19). They, when a Greater than Solomon had come to them, despised and rejected, slighted and slandered Him. -- JF & B Commentary]
Luk 11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
remember, the heathen Ninevites repented when Jona preached to them -- it was the people that God made a covenant with who did not...
Just 2 cents worth...
~Ish
There's a lot to be said about humility, brokeness and self examination.
Truth knows no religious bounds and in the last days the witness to Gods mercy spreads far and wide for all to see.
Truth knows no religious bounds and in the last days the witness to Gods mercy spreads far and wide for all to see.
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