Don't panic, my Unenlightened One... If you will simply note I specifically prefaced "THE CONTROVERSIAL" Mother Shipton, indicating in two mere words everything you are ranting and flapping your tongue about concerning the controversy surrounding Ms. Shipton. Shipton's prophecies were not entirely inaccurate, for the historical record indicates much of her prophesies came true in her very own lifetime. Parts of her prophecies were also "corrupted" and tampered with by opportunists in the 1800's for book publication sales, thus this is where the "discredited prophesies" and the "fraudulence" within Shipton's original prophecies originate, thus adding to the "controversy". Hence, she never predicted the failed 1881 end of the world prophecy; it was added by publishers to create a runaway best seller. But the particular prophecy I sighted is so obscure that no one in former history could have contrived it, nor even translates it to be related to a pole shift, which clearly indicates its authenticity. It is true Shipton was burned at the stake as a heretic and witch, but I might remind you so was Joan of Arc... HELLO... the Church of Religiosity always comes against those with the True Supernatural Spirit of God in them and brazenly condemns them as heretic and witches, that's why Christ said that His Own people always stone the prophets. Get it? But even Shipton prophesied years in advance her own death, the method of death, down to the exact day and hour. As a result of her villianization we have senseless and ill-informed ranters like you.

Additionally, your venomous claims...

"I can absolutely guarantee that the world will not flip over.”

"These earthquakes are nothing compared to what these 2012 prophets of doom are predicting with their earth flip flop fancies."

"Basically the 2012 are false prophets opposed to the gospel. All those who advance the message of false prophets and soothsayers should be run out of the forum and not tolerated."

... is criticizing and coming against this very Christian Forum, for two of the Pole Shift Bible Codes I cited are direct links to this forum's very own Bible Code Mother Site... HELLO! You are actually saying that the researchers of this forum's Bible Code Site are "2012 false prophets of doom... opposed to the gospel". You really need to become informed before opening your mouth with wild and adversarial proclamations.

And lastly, it is apparent that by the vitriolic tone of your spirit, and your agenda to inflame the troops against me with such hostile assertions as the following...

"This is unbelievable that a so-called Christian is able to promote Mother Shipton without being run out of the forum."

"How can we have any confidence in seven thunders who promotes soothsayers and wackos which believe the world is going to flip over? This same man rejects the plain words of Genesis and Exodus which state that the world and the heavens were created in six days by the living God. He abandons the truth of the scriptures and follows after every wacko idea. "

"All those who advance the message of false prophets and soothsayers should be run out of the forum and not tolerated."

... that it is obvious you are declaring war against me, and Christ in me. If you choose by your own free will to go down this road, I have a grave and critical caveat for you... YOU WILL NOT WIN THIS WAR, AND PREPARE FOR THE WORSE... because those who come against me, Christ has come against them with DEATH. Over the past few years four other people have declared war against me, and within two years of launching their plots against me, the Lord has flat out killed 3 of them, and the 4th Christ took their 1st born child, found dead in bed at merely 17 years old, literally 3 months after launching their scheme against me. The Lord did this because they chose to be a hindrance against Christ's plans for me. Two of these people were Christians, and the Lord transported me to the Transdimensions of their ultimate fate, and I can firmly tell you that they currently are not with Jesus, but in horrific realms devoid of the Presence and Light of God. So the decision is yours. Choose what you will.

I pray that you will make the right decision, and be unlike the fools before you.

1. I insist that it is right and correct to believe the literal words of God which he spoke to the people of Israel saying "In six days the Lord made the heavens and earth"

2. I also insist that we should use the plain words of Bible prophecy to know the future and that if any other prophecy does not line up with it then it must be false and rejected along with those who teach it.

I must admit that I am terribly alarmed by this dreadful curse that you have placed upon me. To my knowledge noone has ever cursed me before in all of my years of life on this earth. Neither from the evil in the world or from the church.

I am most upset and concerned by what you have said because clearly you are a man of great spiritual power if you are able to go to other dimensions to witness the agonies of your enemies. However I cannot go against these 2 principles above, upon which I have foundered my life.

I certainly will be seeking the Lord in prayer for protection today and pray for his mercies. I tremble at his word just as the people of Israel trembled at the foot of Sinai when he spoke from the thunder, smoke and quakings of that mountain. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Psalm 111:10

Psalm 91:1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide [1] under the shadow of the Almighty. 2 I will say of the Lord, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust. 3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence. 4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler. 5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; 6 Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. 7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. 8 Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.

9 Because thou hast made the Lord, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; 10 There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. 11 For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. 12 They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. 13 Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: [2] the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet. 14 Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name. 15 He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him. 16 With long [3] life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.

Excubitor...
Please, do not fear I have not “cursed” you, nor would I ever curse you or any one else, not even my worst enemy; I'm just “warning” you for your own awareness that you are stepping into dangerous territory that you are unaware of if you choose to be my enemy and the enemy of Christ in me and to raise people against me. I have no "powers", I am "powerless in Christ"; only in this way does He become our Power. It is Christ's Power that mobilizes against those that choose to be against me. It just happens. I do simply nothing.

Excubitor, there is nothing wrong with what you believe, this is right for you in your current walk with Christ. You don't have to agree with me or my complex theories, there is nothing wrong with disagreement, but when you step beyond the line of debate and disagreement and move towards villainizing, make adversarial declarations, accusation of heresy and use these tactics to trespass into Christ-occupied territory; thus, He MUST come against the attack, intrusion and plot. So I'm just saying there is a pattern in my life that God has established against those that come against me, thus I am warning you for your very own welfare, because you made every indication of moving into this dangerous territory.

There is nothing wrong with debating my uniquely different points or premise as others have done on this site, but Exubitor there is a proper way to debate that is not so adversarial; its more of an exchange of points and counterpoints, fact based and inquisitive base. I debate counterpoints all the time from others on this forum, but never before had anyone ever stepped beyond the fine line between debate and a mobilizing attack and into the dangerous territory that would potentially trigger the ramifications that I described. I think you understand, now, so be of good cheer. And next time let’s just “debate”.

Profound blessing to you in Christ Jesus,
-7

With the left side of your mouth you curse and with the right side of your mouth you bless. I will not debate you. I will simply expose your false teachings and reject your testimony. I will continue to do so despite your threats and will not allow false teaching to flourish in Christianity where it is in my limited power to stand against it.

Interesting... that's what the Pharisees told Jesus.


And for the "RECORD", I did NOT "CURSE" you; I "WARNED" you. I "WARNED" that you were entering dangerous territory that will bring harm to you, if you willfully choose to declare war against me and Christ in me. Anyone reading this thread, even with one eye, can see this is what transpired, so I will appreciate it if you would refrain from this false accusation against me.


"No weapon formed against me prospers, and every tongue that rises up in judgment against me shall be proven wrong." (Isaiah 54:17, AMP)

Seven...You've done some traversing yourself...

And why do you guys want to fight about something that doesn't even matter...not really anyway. when you're trusting in God.

A warning is to correct and help prevent someone from going down the road of wreck and ruin. I'm not the one who has declared war. I offered an olive branch and it was rejected. I will not fight anyone, nor have I ever. Particularly, I will not fight a Christian Brother because that would be turning Christ against Himself. I only "debate" points and counter-points. The Lord fights my battles for me. I merely watch with my eyes as the Lord miraculously deals with those who proclaim their opposition to Christ in me. It's in the Hands of Jesus now, I have let go of it all over to Him. End of story.

Excubitor, after much prayer and a prayerful morning, the Lord Jesus has impressed upon my heart that I MUST prayerfully relay these words to you from my heart, and so I shall obey, Christ Our Lord. Thus, with great LOVE I say onto you the words that the Lord has put into my heart: "I FORGIVE YOU."

Amen.

Thankyou, I know how hard this must have been for you to say.

Does this mean that I am not going to die and descend into the transdimensions and that my firstborn son will not die as you suggested in your previous post?

I have been really unsettled and anxious about those words that you spoke to me. If you have not cursed me then I certainly feel like you have cursed me. You are clearly a man of great power to cause your enemies to be punished in this terrible way. Seeing you are a man of such great LOVE perhaps you will also pray for the Lord to spare me and my children.

Oh, Excubitor, it wasn't hard at all because I'm merely a "spectator" in all this; I understand that what is done (or said) onto the least of His, is done (or said) onto Him (not me). ("What is done to the least of mine is done onto Me.")

I do not decide who my enemy is. My enemies are my enemies because they choose to be my enemy. My enemies declare war upon Christ, thinking they declare war on me. I do not declare war on any one man. I do not perceive a Brother or Sister in Christ as my enemy because we simply disagree or think differently or believe differently, simply because we are all under the same Blood of the same Christ. We are in the same Body.

But like the vital organs in a physical body we each are also very different and serving different functions and purposes, that is why there are differences amongst us. A heart is different from the liver, and visa versa. The liver cannot function like the heart, and the heart cannot function like the liver. The heart sees the liver and cannot comprehend it. The liver sees the heart and it, too, cannot comprehend the heart. They are both unique, different and yet both are vital and essential within the body serving their own unique purposes. Yet if anyone of them is cut out, the whole body dies.

Christ does not come against my enemies for my sake, but for the sake of preserving His work and purposes in rising up the Whole Body. If this is threatened or in jeopardy, it is Christ Who takes action base on one's own choice that generates a curse upon one's self.

I needed to draw a line in the sand to prevent you from going down the same road that others before you have gone as I described to you their ultimate judgments that the Lord showed me. None of this has to be your fate, for our ultimate fate is based upon our choices: will we choose enmity, hatred, bitterness, unforgiveness, opposition and pride; or love, forgiveness, selflessness, charity, compassion and understanding?

I will reiterate as I said before, BE OF GOOD CHEER.

The Lord has impressed upon me that I should share this marvelous testimony with you. It is from Uganda; the account of a man named Emmanuel Tuwagiraimana, who died in the Rwanda Genocide. He was dead for seven days and transported to Heaven where he encountered Christ Jesus, Who gave him profound insight, including about those whom we "think" are our enemies. Emmanuel was miraculously resurrected back to life after the amazing seven day encounter.

SEVEN DAYS IN HEAVEN

I request to send you this testimony of this wonderful man of God who usually visits our house in Kampala, Uganda. Emmanuel Tuwagiraimana is from Rwanda, central Africa. Before 1994, he had been living as a Christian but he was not faithful in his walk with God. During the Rwandan genocide of 1994, Emmanuel and his friends were trapped in Kabwai School, Gitarama town, about 45km from Kigali, the capital of Rwanda. Emmanuel could not walk as he had suffered severe bomb sharpenels that had left him with severe wounds all over the body. They could not move out of the school because it was risky and very dangerous. Due to lack of medical attention, one morning Emmanuel was found dead by his friends. They wrapped his swollen and smelling body in a bed cover and pushed it in a far corner in the room. By now, smelling fluids were oozing out of Emmanuel’s dead body.

Emmanuel says he did not know how suddenly he went out of his body. He found himself at a big gate. Two men stood at that gate and introduced themselves. They said: "We are angels. Now you are standing at the gate of the heaven" When Emmanuel looked upon himself, he realized that he was putting on a very beautiful body, unlike the earthly one. The two men took him through sweet smelling garden of flowers. They took him to a man who introduced himself as Christ. Jesus presented himself to Emmanuel in two forms. First he presented himself with a body of scars. He showed Emmanuel the scars made by nails at the cross. After Jesus knew that Emmanuel had no more doubts, He (Jesus) started moving with Emmanuel while he put on a very beautiful body with no scars. Jesus told Emmanuel many things. Then they came together back to earth. They went to Rwanda and stood in the very room where Emmanuel's body lay. They stood in the air and moreover, no one could see them. Jesus showed Emmanuel his dead body. Emmanuel says it looked terrible. "It looked like a dead cow!" Emmanuel says. They could hear the voices of people in the room. They were saying: "Oh, the saved man had died!"

Jesus told Emmanuel that one day he would go back into that rotten body.

Jesus took Emmanuel back to heaven and showed him a city of very beautiful houses. Emmanuel says he has never seen such houses. Then he was shown a lake. Jesus told him that his time had not come yet so he could not cross that lake. Across the lake he could see living persons. When he looked closely, he saw a Moslem man he had known in Rwanda. Also, he could recognize some Christians he had worked with. He asked Jesus how these people could be there. Christ told him that these people succeeded to make it to heaven to be with God. Emmanuel asked how a Moslem could be among them. Jesus told him: "As he was dying, that man called upon my name and I saved him from eternal fire". Then Emmanuel asked about a certain dead Sister in the Lord with whom they had been ministering to in Rwanda. Jesus told him that she could not come to heaven because she died with a lot of unforgiveness and bitterness in her heart.

She had refused to forgive her fellow Christians who did not visit her in a Rwandan hospital. Then Emmanuel asked about a certain dead man with whom they were praying. Jesus told him that man could not go to heaven because he kept on stealing money collected by Christians to help the sick in hospitals.

Emmanuel was taken to hell. Hell is filthy and people are made to work day and night. There is no rest. All beings there are naked.

Then Jesus brought something that looked like a chocolate bar. Jesus told Emmanuel to eat it. He ate it and true, it tasted like chocolate. He ate the whole of it. Jesus told him: "You have eaten the Bible. Now it is in your head, you will be able to memorize it every where you go" [This is true. Emmanuel has all the scriptures in his head].

Seven days after he had died on earth, Jesus told Emmanuel it was time to go back in his body. At first Emmanuel refused leaving heaven. But Jesus just touched him with the tip of his finger. Emmanuel found himself in a dead rotten body. He says he struggled with one arm to keep the maggots out of his mouth. His friends in the room could not believe their eyes when they saw Emmanuel’s moving body. The straps got loose and Emmanuel sat down. His friends run out of the school shouting that they had seen a ghost! But Emmanuel also shouted calling them and assuring them he was not a ghost. He asked to be given food and taken to the hospital.

One of Emmanuel's arms had rotten to the extent of almost falling off. Doctors in Rwanda decided to amputate it but God told Emmanuel not to accept. In God's supernatural working ways, God appeared to a white doctor in Australia. He told him to go to Rwanda to do surgery on Emmanuel's arm so that it is not amputated. In a strange vision, God gave this doctor a picture of Emmanuel and the address of the Rwandan hospital. This Doctor obeyed and saved Emmanuel’s right arm in Rwanda! [Note: from 1994 to 1999 Emanuel had a supporting metallic support structure on his arm fixed by this doctor. Now he had removed it].

After healing, Emmanuel started his ministry of testifying what happened to him and his visit to heaven.

His is always on the move in African countries. His telephone in Kigali Rwanda is 250-517030. Also, he can be contacted through my e-mail address: mmakko@infocom.co.ug or Post Office Box 3268 Kampala, Uganda.

Thanks and God bless you.

Makko Musagara

P.O.Box 3268 Kampala, Uganda

mmakko@infocom.co.ug

You didnt answer my question. Will you pray for my eternal soul and the safety of my children?


These were wicked words which you spoke to me brimming out of an angry bitter and prideful heart. You should be apologising for these words with a humbled heart not puffing yourself up with grandiose statements of forgiveness.

Your raging heart, pouring out fury was also exposed when you jumped the couch with this post.


I have exposed your false teachings and will continue to do so whenever you present them here despite your threats. For this you perceive me as your enemy and prophesy calamity for me including my death, eternal damnation and/or the death of my firstborn son.

Shameful and damaging words. I don't want your forgiveness I want your apology.

If you truly want to give peace a chance and foster love, forgiveness, selflessness, charity, compassion and understanding then please come good with an apology.

If your prayerful morning has indeed caused you to grow in great love from out of which manifold forgiveness bounds forth easily, then bounding forth a manifold apology should be easy for you as well.

For heaven's sake, Excubitor, of course I apologize, that's what forgiveness is all about. I thought I made myself clear, I did not curse you and your family, I relayed that "others" were cursed by God who came against me and I said that if you continue to proceed down that same road, then you are choosing yourself to enter into dangerous territory. So you have nothing to worry about regarding the safety and welfare of yourself, family and firstborn if you do not choose that route, which, of course, a Godly man would never.

I will pray for you, if you desire, I will pray for your family and firstborn if you wish, but really, you will not need my prayers for you have absolutely nothing to worry about so long as you choose not to go beyond the line in the sand, so to speak, and if you choose to do so, there is really nothing I can do to help for it is your choice that is responsible for entering the "dangerous territory". At that point I can only pray for mercy, for everything will be in God's Hands, for my hands are completely powerless, believe me, I can do nothing. I know you will make the right decision for the safety and protection of your wonderful family, because it sounds like you truly love them. I know that's what I would do.

Also, just be aware that it is normally considered misleading when one posts the quatations of only the contested comments without posting the quotations of the intital comments that triggered those reactionary comments. Otherwise, this does not give others a full and fair picture of the context and "tone" of the full conversation, but only a bias and imbalance picture. The point and counter-point must be present mutually.

You said that you forgave me. When you say "I forgive you" it is a statement that the other person has wronged you and that you magnamonously forgive them of that wrong. This is completely different to admitting that you have done wrong. As far as I can see your apology is worthless because you clearly do not believe that you have done anything or said anything wrong.


Again you have repeated your threats against me by saying that I better not cross you again or else I will be in this dangerous territory of yours which saw other Christians who crossed you go to their deaths and to hell along with their firstborn. As I have continually stated, I have not altered my position towards you one iota. I will continue to confront you and expose and reject your false teachings.


I have not mislead anybody. Your words stand on their own as gross, rude and callous. For those who wanted to see the context of those words I even provided the hyperlink so that they can quickly and easily go to the post. I hope that everybody will do so and see how innocuous my post was and how beserk and unwarranted your response was. Again you have demonstrated no apology for your rudeness but have instead justified yourself by claiming that you were provoked.

Ex... What does the Bible say about cursing?

Pro 26:2 — As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.

Num 23:8 How shall I curse, whom God hath not cursed? or how shall I defy, [whom] the LORD hath not defied?

But my favorite one: (Proverbs 16:7) When a man's ways please the LORD, He makes even his enemies to be at peace with him.

What does it mean to bless someone? Just say bless you and walk away? No. When you bless someone you give them undeserved love. But we must know for sure what love means...When you're sure you know then you can remember this.

Matthew 5:46 (a) For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

We all have words that rise up in us...because we war against our own flesh constantly. Here on the forum we should have no excuse because we are allowed to go back and edit our words. It's boot camp. It's training for those who speak with enthusiasm. If you don't go back and edit your words it means you don't want to... You're justifying yourself and are not right with God. I'm not pointing necessarily at you two but just speaking in general about the forum.

It does absolutely no good.. to rip somebody up one side and down the other...

We want to make people hear us but it takes time and example of purpose. We can't just have words and works but the heart has to rule.

I want to tell you something l know for sure. God brings people into each persons life that are awful...They oppose you...they are your nemesis...they are cunning....and sometimes they are other Christians that the enemy is able to work through because they have unresolved issues in their lives. God knows what he's doing when he tells us to do good to them .. bless and pray for them.

I want to tell you something else l know for sure! If you think you can avoid people like this...think again. Because they will keep coming until you learn to deal with it..I promise.

Once l worked with the most wonderful sweet Christian women. One day she said something towards me in front of a group of people that was unjust and unwarranted. I knew where it was coming from and how the enemy used a moment of weakness in her to stab at a work l was about to enter into with these very same people l had never met. I excused myself quietly...Got in my car and left..driving aimlessly betrayed in a moment by someone l loved and respected. I had to make a decision. I made the right one. I let it go. I never confronted...I never held a grudge. Something happened in my life in the spiritual realm from that day forward. God began to bless my works in a new way.

What about the worst of the worst that aren't even saved. We're thrown into situations with them and we can't escape. The work place is where it happens for most. We have to learn how to do this and really love...not just pretend. It's a test of the Lord...When you do it Gods way he will cause even your enemies to be at peace in the land with you... Amen !!

Thanks Miki, there's much wisdom there and it ministered to me regarding a current situation.

I don't agree with Miki. The Bible says that we should not just let it go. This results in a festering unresolved situation. That lady may not have realised how deeply Miki was offended and if she did then she should be made to deal with the situation and remedy it so that the relationship can be restored. This approach of just leaving it be may be useful in the world but not in the church. Here is our instruction from our Lord.

"A Brother Who Sins
Matt 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. 18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. 19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

Now there is a whole lot of confrontation and fuss-making going on in this instruction. Assembling a team of elders or witnesses and confronting the individual is quite a scene. Also rejecting a brother and treating him as an infidel is also heavy stuff. But I'm sorry these are the plain words of our Lord. These are the paths to unity and it is because these steps are followed that there is so much discord in the church.

As far as I am concerned Seven Thunders made some horrible remarks about me. He needs to be taken to task over these comments otherwise he will continue to tear at other members with his aggressive and overbearing ways.

There is also plenty of instruction to defend the purity of the faith by rejecting false teaching. I haven't got time to dig out all of those scriptures at this time but I feel that I properly defended this Christian board by exposing Seven Thunders promotions of English soothsayers and wacky New Age style doomsday prophets. He also tried to advance a bizarre alternative to the Genesis creation story that I daresay has never been heard of before by any Christian here. We should identify and correct such twistings of the gospel and not allow them to fester. Just as we should expose people's hurtful and harmful ways so that they do not fester and sow discord in the body of the Saints.

I agree with you ex...but it wasn't that kind of situation. We are trespassed against daily.. We can't always be taking people to the mat. We'd be constantly dragging people off to the corner to point out the err of their ways...

No....I know my eyes aren't clear yet either. So why would l expose this error from my sister who's heart l know to be precious before the Lord. I know here back ground and her works... I know her weakness is minor and her path is being paved with maturity. Had l brought the issue up in that timing it would have made me the victor but would have left an embarrassing scar between us.
No...l did the right thing.

Later...working into this same new ministry l had another situation arise...again l was faced with confronting...It was a grievous borderline situation and l knew the enemy was working. The Holy Spirit told me not to confront this person. This was another dear Christian sister. I knew her heart and her works as well. I today, know the wisdom of God in this.

See what happens is the devil enters in ... in a moment of weakness to cause offense. When you ignore it the little plot didn't work. The enemy is always the author of these kinds of things. When l know a person is attentive to their Spiritual life and is working and praying and growing in the Lord l understand that sometimes the flesh and the enemy can get entangled. I can either complicate the situation by stepping in or step back and give it to the Lord.

Now a time that l confronted.

It was necessary...same ministry but after the fact... With a different sister yet again.
I didn't call... sin..time out...
But we sat down together to discuss misunderstandings. It never healed... I let it go but the other person did not. See the people that you really need to confront
are the ones least likely to receive it. They will justify till the cows come home.

Other people like the two precious sister l talked about first were in God's hands...I personally believe because l forgave the issues and let it go that God released them as well. He will work to straighten our paths as we go forward in our weakness and strength.

Choose your battles.. How much time do you have to waste. Understand how the enemy works.

Ex... I know this doesn't relate to your situation here exactly... but it got me on the topic... Look for common ground...Let the Holy Spirit work...God can do abundantly more than we ask or think when our ways please him...