apostolic-church said:

"let me ask you something STephen, another issue the pretrib camp fails on miserably.......This harpazo stuff has become the greatest of heresies in these lsat days.

>Your logic and train is a bit had to follow, but you and I will never agree with your position and statement here. Some of what you have listed actually gives evidence of the Lord's "Harpazo" .... the catching away of the Church and resulting appearance of those who dwell in heaven during the Lord's judgments of an unbelieving world. Listen to what you have presented. The 24 elders and the great multitude are before the throne already before the judgments take place on the earth in chapter 8. The same are seen no less that 12 times in Revelation.

My position would be that what you currently believe is "the" greatest of heresies. You are questioning and refuting the Lord's own words regarding this issue and you can do this at your own accountability. What you think and say is of no effect to me on this subject.

You don't honestly believe this?

Matthew 13
41 The Son of Man will send out His messengers, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness,

6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

9 For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."




Do you honestly think that all of the confussion, murder, mahem, adultry, descensions, and sin during the church age is "Christ's reign". Paul never taught a greek mythological heaven where people go when they die. He taught that you sleep until the Lord returns and wakes you up. Christ Himself showed us this very principle, by coming back to life before He ascended into heaven. He did not die and go to heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.




Charlie

Charlie said to the scoffers:

"You don't honestly believe this?"

>Yes they do. They are those who have been deceived and are are attempting to deceive. Here is why:

There are current movements today within professing Christianity that reflect the teaching of false doctrine described in 2 Peter 3:3. They are denying all or part of the Lord’s return to judge an unbelieving world. The denials include His promise to keep living believers from His hour of trial, a period of intense wrath and tribulation against an unbelieving world, and even His return at all. In addition, there is also the concept that there is no place for national Israel, no “antichrist” and false prophet, and a number of other subjects contained in unfulfilled future prophecy.

These are not entirely new theologies and have actually been around since the first century. There were similar teachings indicating that the Day of the Lord had already come (was in process) and that none of prophetic Scriptures regarding the time of the end were present, nor would they take place. Paul had to remind believers that this teaching was false. He said that the Day of the Lord was not present, and not in progress since the very things that will be included were not evident.

There is a very aggressive movement today making these same or similar claims under the banner of certain professing Christians. Most of them embrace historical and preterist interpretation of Bible prophecy. Those involved are denying the Lord’s coming for the purpose of bringing great tribulation upon an unbelieving world and also claiming that all or a major portion of these things happened in 70 A.D. These are the scoffers of the last days. Their intention includes distracting individuals away from the truth about the Lord's return without warning and coming judgment upon an unbelieving world.

All believers should be aware of the spreading of false doctrines of this type and to avoid being misled by these claims. These may actually be doctrines of demons from satanic origins and their purpose is to deceive members of the Church, divide and destroy sound doctrine, and to undermine the faith of those who profess Christianity. You can know them first by their teaching and also by other characteristics. They are boldly aggressive with their argumentation, cynical, rude, insistent, accusing, disrespectful of others, and will not entertain sound doctrine. They draw others into debate for the purpose of forcing their doctrines and for ridiculing and discrediting their opponent. They will accuse their opponent of the very same tactics that they themselves use, and they are tenacious and tactical in stocking their opponents.

They demand proof by Scripture and text from their opponent to support beliefs that they refute, while giving very little of the same for their own and if they do, most of it is taken out of context to support their position. They also take advantage of those who may not have a broad understanding of the Scriptures. If one does sight direct supportive Scripture they will refute its application if it does not fit their design. Demons hate the Word of God and they will accuse one of ignoring their demands for dialogue when the Scriptures are given as an answer.

The believer should always be on guard against this behavior. Should one try to dialogue for the purpose of receiving, witnessing, and correcting those who engage in this behavior? I think all believers have the responsibility to do this initially, but if after making an honest attempt without positive response, the dialogue should be dropped. If it isn’t, the discussion will go on endlessly and will only serve the aggressive spirit’s objectives.

Some of these are originators, leaders, and teachers …. and some are those who have been deceived by the others. Again, this is not a new thing, but its form today can be demonic and the believer needs to beware. I would expect more of this and for it to increase as we move closer to the end of this present age.

Charlie... why did you quote MAtthew 13 but not MAtthew 25 when it comes to what actually does occur at the second coming.. (at that time, not 1000 years later, those gathered out go to where? eternal punishment, everlasting fire.....

Charlie: why do you think that the reign of Christ occurs in perfect sinless world? EVEN your own millenial doctrines must accept those who might not go to jerusalem once a year and get punished. the nations of the world...
Even the psalms speak of Him ruling in the MIDSTS of his enemies...

Even He states that he will rule TIL all enemies are destroyed, THEN he hands the kingdom over tot he fahter so the father will be the all in all....

It appears that when you think he starts his rule, it is in fact, the fulfillment of the kingdom and it is handed over to the fatehr.

Werhe did you get your theology of heaven? HEAVEN is the abode of God, of the angels, of redeemed man... the pattern on earth is in fact, of something that is elsewhere...

LASTLY, Moses, woho DID DIE appeared at the transfiguration.... with Elijah. So, how does a man die and yet appear ery vyer vyer much alive..... not asleep, the heresy of adventists and others.....

To be absent in the body is to be iwth the LORD.. not to await to be called....

We see souls unde the altar in REvelation..... redeemed men

WE see beasts and elders.. again, redeemed men

We see the firstfruit.. redeemed men

We see in REvelation, the time that the dead shall be judged has arrived. THE DEAD are judged at the great white throne judgement.....

IN FACT, that is waht futurists miollenial theology teaches. They resurrect at a future time to receive their judgement, (the great white throne judgement)

The passages you mentioned have NOTHING, NOTHING to do with your argument. YOu gave some argument about some things but you didn't offer the scriptures that say what you stated....


you quoted: Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, [b]but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

Why did you leave out that these are also called "souls" in REvelation just like the "souls under the altar" are also described as souls. not resurrected bodies....

Why do you deny the book of hebrews when it comes to the state of
just men made perfect"

hebrews 12:
22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



you come, when you assemble at the Lord's supper, unto Mount Sion, 9the nhjeavenly jerusalem)

IN YOUR company, who are joined with you?

1. innumerable company of angels
2. general assembly and church of the firstborn, (those gathered with you here)
3. God the judge of all
4. the spirits of just men made perfect
5. Jesus our mediator of the new covenant ad the blood of sprinkling


note #4...... the spirits or souls of just men MADE PERFECT.......

they don't seem to be sleeping in a grace, their souls are very much alive AND MADE PERFECT.
ADDITIONALLY, Chrsit says when speaking to MArtha regarding LAzarus...
IF YOYU BELIEVE IN ME, you shall NEVER DIE.

I don't know about you, but never does mean exactly waht it means.. NEVER... ATHO you might die, or appear dead, you will be VERY VYER MUCH alive.

Christ's calling Lazarus soul back to his body was in fact, the proof, not only of Chrsit being the resurrection and the life, but also proving the point he just made. HE showed MArtha that Lazarus had departed and altho MARtha saw a lifeless body, dead, LAzarus was called back.....

I tend to believe Chrsit at his word here.. he dind't mean you shall die and later, you will cease from being dead........

WE reign with Chrsit NOW, on earth. WE don't gap this and sometime in the future again, pick up the reign we let go of when we died physically, rahter , our reign iwth Chrsit continues and after death, we are made perfect by removing all things in us that does offend at the bema seat.....

Charlie, please use scripture to prove your points as I have..... I don't need to be trying to make conclusions, allow the bible to make the conclusions sa I have done in this post... all I said, is written as I said it, in the bible........

God BLess

STephen, the false doctrines of the olast days are trhe doctrines you fell for becasue your doctrines never existed til about 150 years ago.

THe apostles creed, first century creed of the first century church states specifically:

he shall come again to judge the quick/living and the dead...........

His second coming is the judgement on all mankind, there is no 1000 year gap. the early church wsa amillenial and they knew that when they died, they would continue to reign with the Lord and yes, as REvelation speaks, they offer up the prayers of saints as redeemed men to God! There is a ministry they specifically have, amongst others... But you forget to read the bible literal in REvelation when it describes who these are....

Why ca't you all just go back to the apostolic church of the first century and read what the apostolic fathers and bishops had to say?

Cuz if you did, you might have to change yoru false religion for the real deal Stephen........ and that might just be too much of a blow..... (having accepted that you were deceived) So for now, while with blinders, God remains giving you trhe mercy and grace, biding time that you will be willing to find the truth rrather than argue from your own ego.... Don't go back 500 years to late fathers, go back to early church fathers.........

Stephen:

th3e day of the Lord issue Paul raises, please don't start to take things out of context.

In that day, in the first century, many had started to say that Chrsit had come and the thesselonians had started to believe they missed it. Paul stated that when he was with them, he told them what must occur. In that occurance, he discusses how the mysery of iniquity must first come to a head, the revealing of antichrist first, then Chrsit would come. The wicked ONE, or satan, would be reealed, him who is behind this mystery.....

Now, devil boy, you refer to me as a scoffer.

Do you really know waht a scoffer is? Waht you did was scoff with a retarded grin on your face, you scoff the teaching of every single christian church til the reformation, then, 1000 s opf views came about til our day........

You scoff at me like the fallen did in Noah';s day..... pretending to be so smart, you have become the fool of scripture.

If you want to use the bible, then don't mock it!

use it and show me scriptuire, don't explain them, show them for what exactly they say... you need wxplaining cuz your theology is so screwed up that you must use twistings to get it right.

I don't need to play talking to a third party like you do, I face you eye to eye.....

I guess this is all a game for you.. go back to nintendo will ya....

playuing with prophecy is playing with fire for you pretend to voice your word as if it is God's every tuime you add to scripture...................

the ploy you use is also used, word for word, by fellow protestants who totally disagree with you......... it is all called private interpretation!

you are a private interpreter of teh bible... I at the very least, have the ANCIENT CHURCH and the writings of the ancient fathers who fouhght heretics like you.

They knew what heresy was cuz they were the pillars of truth, having been and received the truth, both oral and written passed down to them by the apostles.

If you think all pul ever had to say wsa in his few leters or peter, then you are trhe greatest fool. What they said explained and confirms the bible, you read in a vacuum.

Stop being the tail of the serpent and repent STephen.. the first MArtyr, STephen died for alot more than you will EVER understand, the same truth his bishops and elders received and WROTE ABOUT. WE have the letters, you ought to read them instead of your reformer elders who can't figure out black from white and all argue in disarray even the basics of salvation itself. and I expect to beliee they can figure our prophecy when even salvation is hard for them?

tisk tisk

how can I talk to someone who purposefully misquotes another out of context so they can win a stupid argument?

THIS IS WAHT I SAID and qwuote me correctly:

"This harpazo stuff has become the greatest of heresies in these lsat days, the idea of God taking a group and physically taking them before the reaping of the angels, (a prior reaping), prior to even firstfruits, (and they aren't wheat either cuz the wheat gets reped at the time of the tares do)"

why the HECK did you put a PERIOD after the word days above in your wuote of me? Cuz see, you wanted to make it sound like I refuted the rapture, which I did not. but it looks better cuz no one iwll read waht I said and remember it all, they will read your refutation of an out of context word I said.

You are a deceiver STephen.

the heresy is a rapture that comes before the end............. I dont care what term you want to use the latinized or the greek rooted word.......... You use calvary and it is latin based owrd, rapture is the same, latined for the word....

you barely use any scriptue and when you do, you take it off subject, trying to prove soemthing else.

Why not be honest for ONCE and go thru the post you took out of context and read the scriptures I offered and dispute them as meaning something else. ARgue with God, not me..... the scriptures aren't massaged, if you just read them, they will say exactly waht I said without the need for interpretation..... in your case, I need leaps of faith cuz when all scriptures come together, you donctradict many other scriptures.. (that is the sign of a heretic)

Does Chrsit seperate out people at his second coming who go directly to eternal firte? In mean out of the nations?

yes or no.. (hint.. matthew 25)

Then if that does occur, who would be left but the sheep.

Why , if they are sheep, does light need to come out of JERusalem since they already have the light within them? no need for evangelization during some future millenium.....

Whee is the harpazo of these sheep if they didn't get harpazo'd 7 years earlier? Are they not also saints?

and there is so so so much more where your theology contradicts scirpture...
learn to read all of scirpture , not just fragments of it...


the verses I gave do not prove your heresy of prerib, expanded by a medium 150 years ago..... THe book of HEBREWS proves the spirits of just men made perfect are very much alive now with Chrsit...........

SEcondly, the souls under the altar in REVELATION, tehy were martyred and awaait the fulness of their number to come in, that doens't prove your rapture theory either, in fact, it proves souls are in his presence after death. The same souls are found to have received the first resurrection to life and they are found as beasts and elders around the throne of God.. (all diffeent perspectives of those redeemed men.........

And Chrsit comes to judge the dead at his second coming, as the early church taught it also and revelation gives you that verse SPECIFICALLY and it ties into MAtthew 254 SPECIFICALLY...... no need to twist scriptures, waht I just said reads exactly that way.. I don't need to explain it, only explain whree you got it wrong..

just read the bible for what it says, don't add to it........and create yopur own traditions of men

You need to straighten out a lot of debased foundational points to understand what you are reading. I have posted scripture and you just make what you want out of it instead of hearing what it says. So far I see that you don't know what and where Heaven is. You don't know what a soul is. You don't know what angels are and you view the Lord as a coruptable man. So at which of these points would you like me to start giving you scripture to understand?



Charlie

AC said:

"just read the bible for what it says, don't add to it........and create yopur own traditions of men"

>I would say the same to you. Additionally, it appears to me to be a waist of time discussing anything with you.

This is exactly what I was going to answer on this topic. It is the return of Christ. Good opbservation about those on the ground being blessed waiting for the "Blessed One". "Two fold" I will have to remember that.

Here are more scriptures related to Daniel:12:12

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

This is concerning the abomination of desolation and 45 years after.

1335 is a CHECKSUM or double check figure. So that nobody can question what God meant, when he warned us that the Muslim Dome of the Rock is the "abomination of desolation" in the holy place.

1290 & 1335

Daniel 12:11 "And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. 13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days."

The "abomination of desolation" already happened exactly on schedule (Daniel's 1290 day prophecy). When the pagan Islamic Dome of the Rock and the al-Aksa Mosque were built on the temple mount, it made the temple mount "desolated" or contaminated. This was built during the 685 to 705 AD period. During Daniel's day, we know that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the First Temple in 586 BC. We also know from Jeremiah that sacrifices occurred on the temple mount for a year or so after it was destroyed.

Jeremiah 41:5: That there came certain from Shechem, from Shiloh, and from Samaria, even fourscore men, having their beards shaven, and their clothes rent, and having cut themselves, with offerings and incense in their hand, to bring them to the house of the LORD.

So what happened 1290 old testament years in a period of a year or so surrounding 586 BC? The Muslim Dome of the Rock was built on the Temple Mount!

This abomination was built during the 685 to 705 AD period. It took that long to build. During Daniel's day, we know that Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the First Temple in 586 BC. We also know from Jeremiah 41:5 that sacrifices occurred on the temple mount for a year or so after The first Jewish Temple it was destroyed.

The formula for this is converting Old Testament years (360 days a year) into what we are on (solar years-or 365.24 days) is this:

OT prophetic years of 1290 times .9857 = 1271 solar years.

Take 705 AD as the year for the Dome of the Rock and add 586 and you get 1291. That's Exactly as Daniel said when you add the short time Jews visited the mount to make sacrifices after it was destroyed.

Reference for above. Ellis Skolfield's book "Islam in theend times".

NOW - Look at the 1335 figure.
The Prophet Daniel gave us another number that when added with the same formula, takes us exactly to 1948 --when the Jews were restored to the land. Remember 1948 was their Independence Day when they officially became a nation again after 2500 years.

1335 times .9857 = 1316. 1948 (when Israel became a nation) minus 1316, brings us back to another date the God of prophecy wants us to be mindful of. That equals 632 AD, the exact year that Muhammad of Islam died.

Islam tells lies about Jesus. It says in its Qur'an that Jesus never even died on the cross. This is not a very small lie. Because when you bypass the work of Jesus on the cross --you bypass the salvation this made possible. If God thinks their shrine to Muhammad and Islam is an abomination. A Word only used inthe bible twice (the other for homosexuality) --then you know that God thinks that Islam is a pagan religion. Not only that. 1 in every 55 versus in the Muslim Qur'an incites Muslams to make war on non-Muslims.

Read: "Muhammad, Terrorist or Prophet?" here

See who the end time adversary really is...

Hi Pbranson,
Please allow me to propose that no western ever had the bad guys abusing the town folk and when the good guy arrived, they threw down their guns, threw up their hands, and marched off to jail. No, there's usually an intense struggle which ends climactically. So too when the Messiah arrives.

In this expectation, one would anticipate the arrival at day 0, a struggle for dominion resulting in a global thermonuclear war at day 1,290, and a 45 day sheltering arriving to a 1,335 day survival.

It's a difficult prospect.

With Regards,
DaDad

This is pretty good but I think the yr. adjustment might be 35 days....7 yrs x 5 days....
Then we see 40 days and 40 nights until the 1335 days are fulfilled.
This is a Holy Number of rest and of affliction both. So, it appears after the cataclysmic events the occur on earth, including satan roaming it like a lion, blood up to a horses belly etc....that Jesus Himself will start to nurture to land and the millilenial survivors along with his saints that returned with Him from Heaven.

I assume after these 40 days and 40 nights the cleanup, millenial temple of God upon the Highest Mt, the rivers of life etc will have been completed so the earthly marriage supper of the Lamb can occur...

For this our blessed event.