Luk 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jesus Christ gave us only 2 choices.............repent or perish

it's impossible to preach "repent or perish", after you've preached OSAS, ETERNAL SECURITY, or Calvinism



OSAS, ETERNAL SECURITY, and Calvinism...........all 3 conflict with the doctrine of Repentance

Calvin taught that the Elect are saved (regenerated) BEFORE they believe or repent.............and after they're saved, it's impossible for them to become un-saved.
Repentance is un-necessary in Calvinism.

in OSAS, after a moment of faith,,,,,,,,,you're saved forever, even if you stop believing..........so Repentance has no effect in any way.

Its more like "decide whether or not you think you are one of the elect" rather than "repent of perish."

In those teachings, God basically does the repenting for you, so why call anyone to do what only God does?

God told us to repent.

God never told God to repent.

God does not repent of sin,,,,,,,,,,,He never sinned

My point exactly, which is why Calvinism/reform theology is flawed.

Jesus came to call sinners to repentance...not the righteous. The message to sinners is that they should repent or be judged with the world.

People (many Christians) who reject the divine walk of faith are merely claiming to be something special while yet walking in their own power. This is to bear a false witness to Christ who knows no sin. These do not understand the overcoming of sin by faith. They are yet sinners who merely claim a seeming selfish salvation that is granted to those who jump through their evangelical hoop (and hoopla). These need to repent all over again since they are sinners. Actually these religious ones are worse than before, being self-righteous and judgmental. Perfect Pharisees. It is an endless loop with no escape. How many refuse to look to Christ...but rather judge others as inferior by comparing with themselves. But the judge can't stop sinning either. So the non-smoker judges the smoker ....but all are reprobate in God's eyes, with the judge being worst of all. Such hypocrisy!

The connundrum of Dennis' position is that he should himself repent. Is he not just a sinner after all?

<><

John

But a person who doesn't believe in divine intervention, won't receive the means of grace and only walk in his own strength thinking he has somehow received grace in the form of forgiveness. Such a one continues to sin....usually becoming a more hidden type of sinner.

So then the process is as follows

Step 1. Repent and believe in Jesus

Step 2. If you can't stop sinning then return to step 1.



That's the cycle of life to most "believers." Always learning but never coming to the knowledge of the true God. It's an endless loop that only divine intervention and the power and election of God can break. We overcome by the Spirit and by faith not by self-will.

Is God coverting us from sinners into Christian sinners? Or is that our own idea?

<><
John

the bible tells us
1. how to get saved
2. how to stay saved
3. how to know that you're saved
4. don't judge others,,,,,,,,,,but,,,,,fellowship with Saints,,,,,,,,and don't fellowship with sinners,,,,,,,and we know who the Saints are............we know the tree by it's fruit...........we are to be fruit-inspectors

OSAS and Calvinism are heresy

Good point, Even after God took Israel out of bondage of Egypt, God still prepared a time of repentance even after gaining them freedom. It's called atonement.

Likewise Jesus leads us out of bondage, we gain freedom in Christ, but we do still sin, without knowing it sometimes, when we judge others for example...

Look at the letters to the churches, they were converted to Christianity and yet Jesus tells them to repent.

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.



this sounds like Paul is putting forth some effort

calvinism and OSAS are heresy

A covenant is a two-way street. We do the possible, and God does the impossible. It is impossible to make ourselves be born from above. We cannot birth ourselves in the Spirit. It is by the will of God (He is sovereign) and not by our will. We have to be born by the will of God...and not of man. We cannot see the hidden things unless it is given to us from above. We cannot emulate Christ by our own strength. Are we saved by trying real hard or is it by grace through faith? Is it by God's power or our own?

You are confused by the difference of righteousness according to obedience to the commandments...and holiness based on supernatural power by the Spirit. It is apples and oranges...but you don't discern the difference. Ignore the Spirit to your own peril. To walk righteously we must make the effort to obey...yes.

To walk in the Spirit, however, we let Christ take over and He walks through us and in us. It is He that is doing the works...perfect works created in advance that we should walk in them. You have obviously never experienced New Testament power. The power of holiness. You seek rather to discredit God's provision to obey the commandments through the risen Saviour. It would be incredible if it were'nt so typical of our unbelieving times.

Don't set righteousness against holiness. This is a mortal mistake. Don't rebel against the new and living Way in God....lest you fight against the very purpose of God in Christ. Fear rather!

<><

John

all men (except christ) have dirty consciences.........we all know that we have sinned

when i get caught in a crime,,,,,,,,,,,i'm red-faced, ashamed, guilt-ridden,

i can feel shame

when i hear the gospel preached.........i hear that my guilt can be erased, by accepting christ,,,,,,,,,,so, by my faith, i call on christ to save me, by his grace

a christian lives in struggle between the Holy Spirit and the carnal desires,,,,,,,,,,between my born-again spirit and my adamic flesh
and paul spoke of this struggle:
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

You are correct Dennis

The Lord provides for salvation .... but the human must turn, repent, and accept His offering

He does not force the choice

His salvation is a planned objective to save some and has been from the beginning

But one must choose it .... or lose it

..... and it is possible to choose it .... and still lose it

On can walk away from it and many have and do

I prefer ISAS and ISAD.

IF saved, always saved and IF saved, always different.

If there's no fruit, there's no root. A truly saved person in sin will be the most miserable person around when the chastisement of the Father comes upon him. According to scripture, it will, IF they are truly a child.

Tell me: How does a truly saved (purchased, reborn, and sealed with the Holy Spirit) person become unsaved?

Thanks.

In Christ,

Mike

Joh 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


if i stop producing fruit,,,,,,,,,the Heavenly Father will cut me off, and i will be burned


1Co 9:23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

paul was afraid that he might become a CASTAWAY

CASTAWAY is the same greek word as REPROBATE in Romans 1


paul knew exactly what a CASTAWAY is.
Paul was an expert in the OT Scriptures.........read about the CASTAWAY below.



Jdg 15:17 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking, that he cast away the jawbone out of his hand, and called that place Ramathlehi.

2Sa 1:21 Ye mountains of Gilboa, let there be no dew, neither let there be rain, upon you, nor fields of offerings: for there the shield of the mighty is vilely cast away, the shield of Saul, as though he had not been anointed with oil.

2Ki 7:15 And they went after them unto Jordan: and, lo, all the way was full of garments and vessels, which the Syrians had cast away in their haste. And the messengers returned, and told the king.

2Ch 29:19 Moreover all the vessels, which king Ahaz in his reign did cast away in his transgression, have we prepared and sanctified, and, behold, they are before the altar of the LORD.

Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

Psa 2:3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

Ecc 3:5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;

Ecc 3:6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isa 31:7 For in that day every man shall cast away his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which your own hands have made unto you for a sin.

Jer 33:26 Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Eze 20:8 But they rebelled against me, and would not hearken unto me: they did not every man cast away the abominations of their eyes, neither did they forsake the idols of Egypt: then I said, I will pour out my fury upon them, to accomplish my anger against them in the midst of the land of Egypt.

Luk 9:25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,



CALVINISM AND OSAS is wrong

Is there a time period to this, I mean, how long would the Lord attempt to reign us in by chastisement (dealing with us as a son), before deciding that this child would be better off in hell?

Thanks.

Mike

I DON'T KNOW

salvation is a personal relationship............2 men, reacting with each other...........Christ and me...............if i want Him as a friend, but He doesn't want me, then, i'm not saved...............

if he wants me, but i don't want Him, then, i'm not saved

We must want each other...........friendships are like that

Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


my advice is:
no matter what...........don't let go of God
God will tolerate a lot of junk from us, if we hang on to Him

King David committed adultery and multiple murders,,,,,,,,,,yet, he loved God passionately,,,,,,,,and he repented, and God forgave him

He is a Jealous God,,,,,,,,,,,and He wants us to adore Him,,,,,,,,,,,,even if we are very in-adequate

Luk 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

God is looking for Love

And Abraham didn't even have to personally pass between the pieces of the cut covenant animals. Amazing--holding to the covenant was all on the Father (smoking furnace) and the Son (burning lamp).



And Christ even raised the bar, calling into account our very thoughts and intents...anger=murder, sexual lust=adultery.

We cannot fully appreciate exactly what God forgave, and what he still forgives (Christ is presently our advocate), until we realize how really sold into sin we all are IN THE FLESH. Praise God for his amazing mercy and grace!



May we be as a bride awaiting her husband with all passion and longing.

In Christ,

Mike