heb 2:
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
False religon today has given this scripture a meaning that God never intended, that of Jesus christ having died or tasted death for every individual in the world. This could not be the case however because of several considerations.
One. This book was specifically designed for a specific covenantal communtity, The Jews, or Hebrews, those acquainted with the covenantal engagements God sustained with that His earthly covenant people.
The Lanuage of the book is suited to that type of audience..They, the hebrews being quite familair with the duties of the hight priest of Israel, namely the first one aaron, knew that the sacrifice for sin on the day of atonement was meant for all of Israel, The covenant people of God..
Hence, when they would read the letter of hebrews, the every man would mean every israelite..not every one in the world..for they knew that God had a special chosen people..
Even more the word man is not in the original, it was added by the translators..so it would read He tasted death for every [pas] collectively, everyone collectively of the covenant people, the whole of the twelve tribes..which aaron wore on his ephod..
But the context of heb 2 9 also helps determine who the writer had in mind as the pas every, the collective whole..
Lets look at vs 16:
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
The every is all of the seed of abraham, that group of covnenat people Jesus christ identified with in his becoming flesh and blood.
The seed of abraham is a chosen race of people..notice ps 105:
6O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.
isa 41:
8But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Now look at the N T counterpart gal 3:
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
heirs according to the promise..so the every is every heir of promise..
This is a promised seed , that God promised abraham..The seed of when He told abraham he had been made the father of many nations..gen 17:
5Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
this seed of abrahams was not limited to the jews, but to the elect gentiles too, thats why it reads a father of many nations..so this seed is not limited to jews..but the children of promise..
rom 9:
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
They which are the children of the flesh, meaning merely ethnic jews, thats not what constitutes being the children of promise [ the seed] to whom the promises are made..but its to a spiritual, heavenly seed, the seed of christ..by which the true children of promise recieve a new birth manifesting them as the seed of abraham..
So thats one of many definitions of who Jesus christ tasted death for. Not all of mankind, but for the seed of abraham, the children of promise..__________________
Full Version: Tasted Death For Every Man
True. Jesus gave Himself a ransom for those He came to save... all that the Father has given Him.
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
-John 6:37-40
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."
-John 17:9-10
The true meaning of the words "all" and "every" and "whosoever" are always conditional with regard to the audience or subject within the context, and will always harmonize with the rest of the Bible.
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."
-John 6:37-40
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them."
-John 17:9-10
The true meaning of the words "all" and "every" and "whosoever" are always conditional with regard to the audience or subject within the context, and will always harmonize with the rest of the Bible.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
CALVINISM IS WRONG,,,,,,,,,and everybody knows it
CALVINISM IS WRONG,,,,,,,,,and everybody knows it
AMEN BELOVED
AMEN HERE I AM
PARTIAL AMEN DENNIS!
DENNIS IS IT TRUE THAT CALVINISM IS FALSE.- EVERY ISM IS FALSE BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE. JUST LIKE ALL ISMS AND ISTS AND ANS THEY HAVE SOME DOCTRINES CORRECT AND SOME INNCORRECT BUT LET THE WORD OF GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.
Now the verse you posted shows what beloved and here said to be correct. let us look at this.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Ok unless we look at this more closely and compair and add all scripture together, and not against each other it would look like what you are implying here dennis would be true by itself. But let us look at this in depth.
Firstly the verse you quoted says "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"
Now this does not say that " God wants everyone saved" this says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. If we believe this, the way you are saying it, that would mean that NONE PERISH who have ever lived it would mean there is NO CONDEMNATION, NO HELL etc.. Because it is clear that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED. We all agree that ALL LITERAL INDIVIDUAL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED.
So we can see then that they way you are interpreting this is not correct, but in context we can understand what is being said.
Paul is showing to pray for all men, to pray for kings and those in authroity and then he makes it a point to show that he was sent to the GENTILES!
Because paul is saying, just as he has many times before, that God saves all men= every kind of man from every nation! God saves jews as well as gentiles, kings as well as poor, those in authroity and those under authority. He is clearly NOT saying that God will have ALL individual men saved.
Now lets see what the word of God says about Gods will to PROVE by the holy word of God that this cannot be saying that God will have all individual men to be saved.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
IF it was GODS WILL, GODS PLEASURE, GODS DESIRE to save EVERY INDIVIDUAL MAN, GOD WOULD DO ALL HIS PLEASURE AND HAVE THEM ALL SAVED.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
WE SEE HERE THAT NONE RESISTS GODS WILL! SO IF GOD WILLED ALL INDIVDUAL MEN SAVED ALL WOULD BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RESIST HIS WILL.
SO WE SEE HERE THAT IT IS EXACTLY HOW BELOVED AND HERE I AM SHOWED IT TO BE, GOD SAVES ALL MEN JEW AND GENTILE OF THE ELECT WHOM JESUS DIED FOR AND WHOM THE FATHER GAVE HIM BE THEY JEW GENTILE BOND FREE KING SERVANT.
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
CLEARLY HERE HE KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND HE HAS OTHER SHEEP THAT HE HASNT BROUGHT YET IN THIS SCRIPTURE BUT HE STILL CALLS THEM HIS AND HE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IT IS HIS SHEEP THAT HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR.
AMEN HERE I AM
PARTIAL AMEN DENNIS!
DENNIS IS IT TRUE THAT CALVINISM IS FALSE.- EVERY ISM IS FALSE BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE. JUST LIKE ALL ISMS AND ISTS AND ANS THEY HAVE SOME DOCTRINES CORRECT AND SOME INNCORRECT BUT LET THE WORD OF GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.
Now the verse you posted shows what beloved and here said to be correct. let us look at this.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Ok unless we look at this more closely and compair and add all scripture together, and not against each other it would look like what you are implying here dennis would be true by itself. But let us look at this in depth.
Firstly the verse you quoted says "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"
Now this does not say that " God wants everyone saved" this says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. If we believe this, the way you are saying it, that would mean that NONE PERISH who have ever lived it would mean there is NO CONDEMNATION, NO HELL etc.. Because it is clear that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED. We all agree that ALL LITERAL INDIVIDUAL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED.
So we can see then that they way you are interpreting this is not correct, but in context we can understand what is being said.
Paul is showing to pray for all men, to pray for kings and those in authroity and then he makes it a point to show that he was sent to the GENTILES!
Because paul is saying, just as he has many times before, that God saves all men= every kind of man from every nation! God saves jews as well as gentiles, kings as well as poor, those in authroity and those under authority. He is clearly NOT saying that God will have ALL individual men saved.
Now lets see what the word of God says about Gods will to PROVE by the holy word of God that this cannot be saying that God will have all individual men to be saved.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
IF it was GODS WILL, GODS PLEASURE, GODS DESIRE to save EVERY INDIVIDUAL MAN, GOD WOULD DO ALL HIS PLEASURE AND HAVE THEM ALL SAVED.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
WE SEE HERE THAT NONE RESISTS GODS WILL! SO IF GOD WILLED ALL INDIVDUAL MEN SAVED ALL WOULD BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RESIST HIS WILL.
SO WE SEE HERE THAT IT IS EXACTLY HOW BELOVED AND HERE I AM SHOWED IT TO BE, GOD SAVES ALL MEN JEW AND GENTILE OF THE ELECT WHOM JESUS DIED FOR AND WHOM THE FATHER GAVE HIM BE THEY JEW GENTILE BOND FREE KING SERVANT.
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
CLEARLY HERE HE KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND HE HAS OTHER SHEEP THAT HE HASNT BROUGHT YET IN THIS SCRIPTURE BUT HE STILL CALLS THEM HIS AND HE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IT IS HIS SHEEP THAT HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR.
QUOTE
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
all men who have him as mediator, that is the mediator of the new covenant..
1 tim 2:
4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
This is the new covenant mediator heb 8:
6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
This mediatoralship is to a chosen group of people only :
8For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
So the all men He wants to be saved, are all the spiritual house of Israel, the seed of abraham..heb 2:
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
So you are mistaken on the truth of 1 tim 2 4
QUOTE (GodspromisesRyes @ Nov 30 2008, 11:24 AM) 
AMEN BELOVED
AMEN HERE I AM
PARTIAL AMEN DENNIS!
DENNIS IS IT TRUE THAT CALVINISM IS FALSE.- EVERY ISM IS FALSE BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE. JUST LIKE ALL ISMS AND ISTS AND ANS THEY HAVE SOME DOCTRINES CORRECT AND SOME INNCORRECT BUT LET THE WORD OF GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.
Now the verse you posted shows what beloved and here said to be correct. let us look at this.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Ok unless we look at this more closely and compair and add all scripture together, and not against each other it would look like what you are implying here dennis would be true by itself. But let us look at this in depth.
Firstly the verse you quoted says "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"
Now this does not say that " God wants everyone saved" this says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. If we believe this, the way you are saying it, that would mean that NONE PERISH who have ever lived it would mean there is NO CONDEMNATION, NO HELL etc.. Because it is clear that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED. We all agree that ALL LITERAL INDIVIDUAL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED.
So we can see then that they way you are interpreting this is not correct, but in context we can understand what is being said.
Paul is showing to pray for all men, to pray for kings and those in authroity and then he makes it a point to show that he was sent to the GENTILES!
Because paul is saying, just as he has many times before, that God saves all men= every kind of man from every nation! God saves jews as well as gentiles, kings as well as poor, those in authroity and those under authority. He is clearly NOT saying that God will have ALL individual men saved.
Now lets see what the word of God says about Gods will to PROVE by the holy word of God that this cannot be saying that God will have all individual men to be saved.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
IF it was GODS WILL, GODS PLEASURE, GODS DESIRE to save EVERY INDIVIDUAL MAN, GOD WOULD DO ALL HIS PLEASURE AND HAVE THEM ALL SAVED.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
WE SEE HERE THAT NONE RESISTS GODS WILL! SO IF GOD WILLED ALL INDIVDUAL MEN SAVED ALL WOULD BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RESIST HIS WILL.
SO WE SEE HERE THAT IT IS EXACTLY HOW BELOVED AND HERE I AM SHOWED IT TO BE, GOD SAVES ALL MEN JEW AND GENTILE OF THE ELECT WHOM JESUS DIED FOR AND WHOM THE FATHER GAVE HIM BE THEY JEW GENTILE BOND FREE KING SERVANT.
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
CLEARLY HERE HE KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND HE HAS OTHER SHEEP THAT HE HASNT BROUGHT YET IN THIS SCRIPTURE BUT HE STILL CALLS THEM HIS AND HE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IT IS HIS SHEEP THAT HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR.
AMEN HERE I AM
PARTIAL AMEN DENNIS!
DENNIS IS IT TRUE THAT CALVINISM IS FALSE.- EVERY ISM IS FALSE BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE. JUST LIKE ALL ISMS AND ISTS AND ANS THEY HAVE SOME DOCTRINES CORRECT AND SOME INNCORRECT BUT LET THE WORD OF GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.
Now the verse you posted shows what beloved and here said to be correct. let us look at this.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Ok unless we look at this more closely and compair and add all scripture together, and not against each other it would look like what you are implying here dennis would be true by itself. But let us look at this in depth.
Firstly the verse you quoted says "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"
Now this does not say that " God wants everyone saved" this says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. If we believe this, the way you are saying it, that would mean that NONE PERISH who have ever lived it would mean there is NO CONDEMNATION, NO HELL etc.. Because it is clear that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED. We all agree that ALL LITERAL INDIVIDUAL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED.
So we can see then that they way you are interpreting this is not correct, but in context we can understand what is being said.
Paul is showing to pray for all men, to pray for kings and those in authroity and then he makes it a point to show that he was sent to the GENTILES!
Because paul is saying, just as he has many times before, that God saves all men= every kind of man from every nation! God saves jews as well as gentiles, kings as well as poor, those in authroity and those under authority. He is clearly NOT saying that God will have ALL individual men saved.
Now lets see what the word of God says about Gods will to PROVE by the holy word of God that this cannot be saying that God will have all individual men to be saved.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
IF it was GODS WILL, GODS PLEASURE, GODS DESIRE to save EVERY INDIVIDUAL MAN, GOD WOULD DO ALL HIS PLEASURE AND HAVE THEM ALL SAVED.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
WE SEE HERE THAT NONE RESISTS GODS WILL! SO IF GOD WILLED ALL INDIVDUAL MEN SAVED ALL WOULD BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RESIST HIS WILL.
SO WE SEE HERE THAT IT IS EXACTLY HOW BELOVED AND HERE I AM SHOWED IT TO BE, GOD SAVES ALL MEN JEW AND GENTILE OF THE ELECT WHOM JESUS DIED FOR AND WHOM THE FATHER GAVE HIM BE THEY JEW GENTILE BOND FREE KING SERVANT.
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
CLEARLY HERE HE KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND HE HAS OTHER SHEEP THAT HE HASNT BROUGHT YET IN THIS SCRIPTURE BUT HE STILL CALLS THEM HIS AND HE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IT IS HIS SHEEP THAT HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR.
Paul is teaching the doctrine of the new covenant which Jesus is mediator of..This covenant promises, ensures spiritual knowledge to a certain segment of mankind, the seed of abraham, no matter what their office is in life, notice:
heb 8:
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
So this all here is the same all in 1 tim 2 4..
notice he says fromm the least to the greatest..this conicides with the different classes of men in 1 tim 2:
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
So paul is exhorting timothy and his group to pray for those who the new covenant promises says will come to know God..
These are the all who God wants to come to the knowledge of the truth..
QUOTE (beloved57 @ Nov 30 2008, 01:24 PM)
QUOTE (GodspromisesRyes @ Nov 30 2008, 11:24 AM)
AMEN BELOVED
AMEN HERE I AM
PARTIAL AMEN DENNIS!
DENNIS IS IT TRUE THAT CALVINISM IS FALSE.- EVERY ISM IS FALSE BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE. JUST LIKE ALL ISMS AND ISTS AND ANS THEY HAVE SOME DOCTRINES CORRECT AND SOME INNCORRECT BUT LET THE WORD OF GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.
Now the verse you posted shows what beloved and here said to be correct. let us look at this.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Ok unless we look at this more closely and compair and add all scripture together, and not against each other it would look like what you are implying here dennis would be true by itself. But let us look at this in depth.
Firstly the verse you quoted says "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"
Now this does not say that " God wants everyone saved" this says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. If we believe this, the way you are saying it, that would mean that NONE PERISH who have ever lived it would mean there is NO CONDEMNATION, NO HELL etc.. Because it is clear that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED. We all agree that ALL LITERAL INDIVIDUAL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED.
So we can see then that they way you are interpreting this is not correct, but in context we can understand what is being said.
Paul is showing to pray for all men, to pray for kings and those in authroity and then he makes it a point to show that he was sent to the GENTILES!
Because paul is saying, just as he has many times before, that God saves all men= every kind of man from every nation! God saves jews as well as gentiles, kings as well as poor, those in authroity and those under authority. He is clearly NOT saying that God will have ALL individual men saved.
Now lets see what the word of God says about Gods will to PROVE by the holy word of God that this cannot be saying that God will have all individual men to be saved.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
IF it was GODS WILL, GODS PLEASURE, GODS DESIRE to save EVERY INDIVIDUAL MAN, GOD WOULD DO ALL HIS PLEASURE AND HAVE THEM ALL SAVED.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
WE SEE HERE THAT NONE RESISTS GODS WILL! SO IF GOD WILLED ALL INDIVDUAL MEN SAVED ALL WOULD BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RESIST HIS WILL.
SO WE SEE HERE THAT IT IS EXACTLY HOW BELOVED AND HERE I AM SHOWED IT TO BE, GOD SAVES ALL MEN JEW AND GENTILE OF THE ELECT WHOM JESUS DIED FOR AND WHOM THE FATHER GAVE HIM BE THEY JEW GENTILE BOND FREE KING SERVANT.
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
CLEARLY HERE HE KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND HE HAS OTHER SHEEP THAT HE HASNT BROUGHT YET IN THIS SCRIPTURE BUT HE STILL CALLS THEM HIS AND HE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IT IS HIS SHEEP THAT HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR.
AMEN HERE I AM
PARTIAL AMEN DENNIS!
DENNIS IS IT TRUE THAT CALVINISM IS FALSE.- EVERY ISM IS FALSE BUT THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUE. JUST LIKE ALL ISMS AND ISTS AND ANS THEY HAVE SOME DOCTRINES CORRECT AND SOME INNCORRECT BUT LET THE WORD OF GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR.
Now the verse you posted shows what beloved and here said to be correct. let us look at this.
1Ti 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
1Ti 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
1Ti 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1Ti 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
Ok unless we look at this more closely and compair and add all scripture together, and not against each other it would look like what you are implying here dennis would be true by itself. But let us look at this in depth.
Firstly the verse you quoted says "WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH"
Now this does not say that " God wants everyone saved" this says WHO WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED. If we believe this, the way you are saying it, that would mean that NONE PERISH who have ever lived it would mean there is NO CONDEMNATION, NO HELL etc.. Because it is clear that God WILL HAVE ALL MEN SAVED. We all agree that ALL LITERAL INDIVIDUAL MEN WILL NOT BE SAVED.
So we can see then that they way you are interpreting this is not correct, but in context we can understand what is being said.
Paul is showing to pray for all men, to pray for kings and those in authroity and then he makes it a point to show that he was sent to the GENTILES!
Because paul is saying, just as he has many times before, that God saves all men= every kind of man from every nation! God saves jews as well as gentiles, kings as well as poor, those in authroity and those under authority. He is clearly NOT saying that God will have ALL individual men saved.
Now lets see what the word of God says about Gods will to PROVE by the holy word of God that this cannot be saying that God will have all individual men to be saved.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
IF it was GODS WILL, GODS PLEASURE, GODS DESIRE to save EVERY INDIVIDUAL MAN, GOD WOULD DO ALL HIS PLEASURE AND HAVE THEM ALL SAVED.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?
WE SEE HERE THAT NONE RESISTS GODS WILL! SO IF GOD WILLED ALL INDIVDUAL MEN SAVED ALL WOULD BE SAVED BECAUSE THEY CANNOT RESIST HIS WILL.
SO WE SEE HERE THAT IT IS EXACTLY HOW BELOVED AND HERE I AM SHOWED IT TO BE, GOD SAVES ALL MEN JEW AND GENTILE OF THE ELECT WHOM JESUS DIED FOR AND WHOM THE FATHER GAVE HIM BE THEY JEW GENTILE BOND FREE KING SERVANT.
Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
CLEARLY HERE HE KNOWS HIS SHEEP AND HE HAS OTHER SHEEP THAT HE HASNT BROUGHT YET IN THIS SCRIPTURE BUT HE STILL CALLS THEM HIS AND HE MAKES IT CLEAR THAT IT IS HIS SHEEP THAT HE LAYS DOWN HIS LIFE FOR.
Paul is teaching the doctrine of the new covenant which Jesus is mediator of..This covenant promises, ensures spiritual knowledge to a certain segment of mankind, the seed of abraham, no matter what their office is in life, notice:
heb 8:
10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
So this all here is the same all in 1 tim 2 4..
notice he says fromm the least to the greatest..this conicides with the different classes of men in 1 tim 2:
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
So paul is exhorting timothy and his group to pray for those who the new covenant promises says will come to know God..
These are the all who God wants to come to the knowledge of the truth..
AMEN THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS SAYING! PRAISE GOD THERE IS NO CONTRIDICTIONS IN SCRIPTURE WE JUST HAVE TO CAST DOWN OUR OWN OPINIONS AND BELIEVE THE WORD
Another identifier of who the writer of hebrews has in mind when speaking about the all for whom Jesus tasted[savoured] death for is the brethern:
heb 2:
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
his brethern were those to whom he declared Gods name to vs 12
remember Jesus prayer in jn 17 ? He said of his chosen disciples this:
jn 17:
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
This manifesting Gods name to them which was given him, is the same as him declaing Gods name to His brethern in heb 2 12..
Its a specific people to whom the arm of the Lord is revealed jn 12:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Also the brethern in vs 12 are identifed with the church..
So the the brethern are the church, those given to Jesus christ by the father, these are the every for whom Jesus christ tasted death for..
The brethern are those foreknown [foreloved] by God..rom 8:
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
So the firstborn [jesus christ] and the brethern were all foreknown by God, that is foreloved jn 17:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
The enemy says that the elect are foreknown by God , in that God knows beforehand who is going to accept Jesus christ, but this is a falsehood, for that would mean, That Jesus christ is the firstborn of the brethern because God saw Jesus would accept it..
But Just as Jesus was beloved and foreknown by The Father as the firstborn, so was all the brethern..this all by the decree of God..
peter wrote that Jesus was foreknown too..1 pet 1:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
The word foreordained is:
proginōskō
The same word for foreknow in rom 8 29..
So it is these, and these only for whom Jesus christ tasted death, the foreknown brethern..
__________________
heb 2:
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
his brethern were those to whom he declared Gods name to vs 12
remember Jesus prayer in jn 17 ? He said of his chosen disciples this:
jn 17:
6I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
This manifesting Gods name to them which was given him, is the same as him declaing Gods name to His brethern in heb 2 12..
Its a specific people to whom the arm of the Lord is revealed jn 12:
38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
Also the brethern in vs 12 are identifed with the church..
So the the brethern are the church, those given to Jesus christ by the father, these are the every for whom Jesus christ tasted death for..
The brethern are those foreknown [foreloved] by God..rom 8:
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren
So the firstborn [jesus christ] and the brethern were all foreknown by God, that is foreloved jn 17:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
The enemy says that the elect are foreknown by God , in that God knows beforehand who is going to accept Jesus christ, but this is a falsehood, for that would mean, That Jesus christ is the firstborn of the brethern because God saw Jesus would accept it..
But Just as Jesus was beloved and foreknown by The Father as the firstborn, so was all the brethern..this all by the decree of God..
peter wrote that Jesus was foreknown too..1 pet 1:
20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
The word foreordained is:
proginōskō
The same word for foreknow in rom 8 29..
So it is these, and these only for whom Jesus christ tasted death, the foreknown brethern..
__________________
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.